’Moderate’ vs ’Severe’ Muslims

Re: # 27

Kamran - if that indeed is the level of control over peoples freedom to think and express themselves then this it is truly a terrible oppression that is being exerted.

Re: # 26

billdunc,

``The other site has nothing like that at all on it so why it should be banned is beyond my understanding``

I`ll try to explain. Let me turn my good muslim switch `on`

Since the site has the word `church` in it... that in itself is offensive.

Then also, it asks anyone and everyone to join. You are INCITING good muslims to start dialogues with people with other beliefs. That COULD make them question their beliefs. This could CORRUPT good muslims. Why allow the temptations of the DEVIL into the hearts of pure and good muslims?

Be happy that only the site is banned, and you are not rotting in prison!

I won`t mention your other site. That requires you to be stoned to death, which is a topic in itself.

Switch `off`

Re: # 25

Teshah - I only posted one of the Danish cartoons on my blog, and also one of the ``holocaust`` cartoons. In both case it was to try to illustrate what the arguments were about and as part of commenting on the different cultural reactions to them rather than to try to add to the furore by fully republishing them. I am sorry you cant access it - not that I make any great claims for my blog. I am not sure that I would want to post them here even if I could because I think the context is very different on this site. The other site has nothing like that at all on it so why it should be banned is beyond my understanding.

Re: # 24

billdunc

Thank you for the kind interest shown by you in my ilog.

Yes, they do ban websites in Pakistan. I tried to open the sites you quoted again but failed. I suspect these sites have been blocked in Pakistan as an aftermath of the `Danish Cartoons`. I wanted to see these before offering any further comments on the subject. I wonder if these can be pasted here on `chowk`; but then afraid too that they may not ban the chowk also. Is it not an indication enough where we are heading to? God forbid, it may be worst than inquisition with the law of blasphemy in Pakistan.

Re: # 21
Tesha - I followed the link to your profile and was really interested reading your last ilog post. It started me thinking again about comparisons between the history of church and state relations in the west (europe specifically) and some apparent trends in the relationship between Islam and the state. This is something that has struck me before. For example I thinkthat there are comparisons which can be drawn between for example the mind set of those involved in the Inquisition and the reformation and things that are going on in the Christian world.

Interestingly there was a time when people in Europe would have thought of themselves as part of the Christian world and Christianity would have been a very central influence on the conduct of states and their rulers. Those times have long gone for us and hopefully consigned to our history. In the United States the separation comes and goes and without doubt the Christian Right has had much success in dictating the political agenda ( although there are nnow signs that this may have passed it`s peak).
I am no expert on these matters but I think I may try to explore this comparison in more detail and post something about this.
Historical trends and patterns of events never repeat themselves precisely and I am not suggesting that the comparisons are absolute. Nevertheless if such compraisons throw light on only 20 or 30% of what is happending in Muslim society then they are worth exploring.
What is your take on the validity of such comparisons?

Re: # 22

Hi Tesha, Both sites are google blog sites. I cant see why either would be blocked in Pakistan as there is nothing outrageous on either of them. I hadnt posted them as ``live`` links because I wasnt sure how to do that in these comments posts.

I have just tried copying and pasting the links from my comments into my browser and both sites come up fine for me. Does Pakistan ban web-sites? I didnt realise that it did that. I knew China and some other countries did.

Here are the links again if you have the time to try again:

http://ayrshireblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/state-of-world-good-guys-and-bad-guys.html

http://thechurchofall.blogspot.com

Re: # 20

I tried to open both of the two web-sites quoted in your post but failed. I wonder if these are blocked in Pakistan.

Re: # 20

Well done dear billdunc, but no avail at least in case of the Paky Halfi Muslims. What to expect from them whose very pretension to call themselves as Muslims is allowed officially only after they submit a `Halaf Naama` (Affidavit) debunking the claim of certain fellow citizens to call them as Muslims. What a pity when the people all over the world can choose their faith-label as a matter of right only the Paky Muslims are denied this right.

Re: # 17

Hi Nadeem - it`s good to be able to debate these things with you and others. I am sure there are many things we would agree on but the nature of such debate is to explore areas of difference so I will concentrate my few thoughts on those - but I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended - constructively.

You said;
``Do you know what Muslims felt like when the Cartoon of Mohammed (PBUH) were published in the Danish newspaper?....I will tell you how it feels like to Muslims…just imagine that someone takes the naked picture of your mother with another man and put it out on the billboard on the main thoroughfare and write the words underneath “This Bitch is having fun” imagine the anger it evokes inside of you and then multiply it by 100 folds and then some. ``

I understand what you are saying here but I am unable to connect with it either emotionally or rationally. First - they werent pictures of anyones mother or anyone else like that and they were not pornographic or obscene. They did not insult the prophet - they were satirical and if they insulted anyone it was the fanatics who bomb and murder in the name of your prophet and those in the Muslim community who stand idly by giving passive or active support to the idiots who are hijacking your great religion. ( I say great religion even though I am an atheist because I do think that religions have some potential for good and they are one of the starting points for our human societies to evolve positive ethical codes).
In short I dont think , from my perspective, that your coparison holds water. The cartoons were critical of an ideology and not of any individual. If they used a picture of the prophet it was simply as a symbol of Islamic thinking ( sorry I mean a particular strand of Islamic thinking - it is clear to me that many Muslims abhor what is happening in the name of their religion).

You said;
``But since West has already made the mockery of the Christianity and even Jesus (PBUH) was the butt of most crude and crass jokes and I don’t expect any westerner to understand the anger that cartoon evoked inside the Muslims. And your response had an underlying message, “So what? It was a Joke. just be tolerant, no need to get violent”. Can’t blame you , because many before you have failed to understand the inherent true spirit of islam and kind of feeling it evokes inside Muslims. Why put a blame on Westerners only, Most of the muslims who are of Secular belief does not understand the way muslims feel and understand the true inherent spirit of islam, otherwise they wouldn’t be secular. ``

I accept your anger. can you accept that as a secular westerner ( or any type of westerner) that we hold as much store by protecting freedom of speech as you do about your prophet? I was enraged at the attempts by Muslims to dictate what can and cannot be printed ( the Rusdie affaiir, the cartoons). I suppose in this there is to some extent an element of ``clash of civilisations``.
But these cartoons were printed in the western media not in your country and I think we have as much right to run our countries by our beliefs as you do by yours- is that not so?

Anyone living in a western society must accept that the reason we have open , tolerant and dynamic societies is exactly because we do tolerate robust debate over ideas - and that robust debate has historically included barbed and pointed visual satirical images. We sometimes make each other angry with these things - but we dont resort to calling for beheadings or shoot people in the street over it.

You said:
``Billdunc, ask yourself why did the pope Benedict opened up the book from 15th Century in the Christian heartland of the Vatican and made a direct quote Insulting Islam and Mohammed ? A Man of God who suppose to bring harmony and peace between two faith stood up and insulted islam. Why did he do it? when the tension between the west and Muslims are all time high. But I understand and westerner would say “So what? Just be tolerant, what’s the big deal? ``

My view is that we in the West need to speak up and say what we think about Islamic culture - as practised in reality rather than its ``aspirations``. All round the world there is violence taking place in the name of Islam. The Popes attempt was to engage with were the roots of this are. I see plenty of criticism of the west in Islamic media - soime of it very insulting - are we not entitiled to express our views? I hold no candle for the Pope - Christianity in its day was just as backward in its practice as what we see in some Islamic societies. Indeed talk to an American redneck christian and its like talking to a mirror image of a ``redneck`` Islamist. The fanaticism, medieval ways of thinking, restricted view of the role of women, anti-semitism etc etc are all mirrored.

You said:
``So what hidden hands are pulling the strings of these people and prompting them to do and say these things? Ask yourself am I seeing the complete picture or am I seeing a warped image of islam and Muslims? ``

I dont think any hidden hands are pulling the strings. Thats your victim thinking showing through again. What you are seeing is genuinely the way that Islam is appearing to Western eyes ( and many others). What we see is Muslims claiming to have a religion of peace and in reality all around the world barbarity and murder committed in its name. The danger of course is that on both sides we fall into simplistic stereotyping of each other. the truth is that on both sides there are truths and faults. One of the reasons I was so glad to find this site was that I want to personally take responsibility for engaging in constructive debate about differences and seek greater understanding. If you have the time I have written a slightly longer version of my views at http://ayrshireblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/state-of-world-good-guys-and-bad-guys.html and you are most welcome to leave a comment there also.

Anyway as I said at the start - I beg your forgiveness for concentrating on the differences in our views - there are many areas I am sure we would also agree about.

Finally I consider myself a member of the Church of All - surprising you may think for an atheist to claim membership of a church. I suggest you have a look at their very brief statement at http://thechurchofall.blogspot.com/ :-)

My regards to you and yours.

Re: # 16

NS

`Allah has decided to protect this religion and Allah shall protect it`.

May be; but what about the self-styled `Umma`? Allah had even warned the original Umma that He would replace it by another people if it went astray. Seeing the `lachhan` (doings) of the Mullah-ridden Umma He might have already done so but we can`t know as the Mullah, who has hijacked Islam has, to perpetuate his hold, blocked all communication with Allah to prevent any guidance from Him. So we don`t know which is the true Umma now, what to say of a true Muslim.

Re: # 9

Nadeem_shehzad

``Just be a good Muslim and take pride in the greatest gift of Islam that Allah has given you``.

But in the Pakland, also called `Islam ka qillah`, this gift is dispensed by the Mullah, the self-styled successors of the prophet. To be eligible for this gift one has to submit a `Hallaf Naamah` (Affidavit) rejecting the claim of a section of compatriots to call themselves Muslims and assigning hateful epithets to the founder of their faith, thus creating a new variety of Muslims, called `Halfi Musalman`, like Hanfi, Munfi, etc., etc..

I understand that there is a lot of secular talk that is going on here, which is all good. Some of you are very enlightened people and secular or agnostic or whatever you want to call yourself and probably want to slice and dice Islam with a western made scalpel but that is your personal view, just like whatever I say is my personal view. I know that there is inherent belief in all of you that things have to physically manifest itself to be understood. And there are tangible remedies that needs to be applied to cure Muslims suffering like some of you said

education,
understanding,
freedom,
tolerance,

All these remedies are an integral part of Islamic ideology. But there are bigger things that are happening behind the scene that will not manifest itself to you unless you are ready to take a leap of faith. You will be just wrangled up in the things and events that western media only wants you to see. Billdunc who is a self professed atheist has his own theory and want to promote tolerance and stopping the blame game. Which is fine and I respect that. But the only thing wrong with it is billdunc is formulating his opinion just by feeling the tip of the iceberg. He is watching Islam and Muslims from the eyes of the west and saying things based on western values. That is just an example of the physical laws I mentioned above, he observes and formulates his opinion.

But Billdunc do you know what Muslims felt like when the Cartoon of Mohammed (PBUH) were published in the Danish newspaper?....I will tell you how it feels like to Muslims…just imagine that someone takes the naked picture of your mother with another man and put it out on the billboard on the main thoroughfare and write the words underneath “This Bitch is having fun” imagine the anger it evokes inside of you and then multiply it by 100 folds and then some. But since West has already made the mockery of the Christianity and even Jesus (PBUH) was the butt of most crude and crass jokes and I don’t expect any westerner to understand the anger that cartoon evoked inside the Muslims. And your response had an underlying message, “So what? It was a Joke. just be tolerant, no need to get violent”. Can’t blame you , because many before you have failed to understand the inherent true spirit of islam and kind of feeling it evokes inside Muslims. Why put a blame on Westerners only, Most of the muslims who are of Secular belief does not understand the way muslims feel and understand the true inherent spirit of islam, otherwise they wouldn’t be secular.

Billdunc, ask yourself why the cartoon was published in the paper when the tension between the west and Muslims are all time high and you know the radical elements of Islam will have a field day with it, so why add more fuel to the fire? Again, I don’t understand the western people to understand it. But there are things going on behind the scene that westerners will never see in the media.

Billdunc, ask yourself why did the pope Benedict opened up the book from 15th Century in the Christian heartland of the Vatican and made a direct quote Insulting Islam and Mohammed ? A Man of God who suppose to bring harmony and peace between two faith stood up and insulted islam. Why did he do it? when the tension between the west and Muslims are all time high. But I understand and westerner would say “So what? Just be tolerant, what’s the big deal?

So what hidden hands are pulling the strings of these people and prompting them to do and say these things? Ask yourself am I seeing the complete picture or am I seeing a warped image of islam and Muslims?

I too believe on peace and harmony and I do believe respect only begets respect. So there is a need for enlighten Westerners to come forward and see the Islam in its true light and educate other people.

@KamranISS
“I, and many many muslims I know, are also afraid of Islams followers. We fear for our children”.

I don’t know where you are coming from, but I know where you are going. First of all you are an exception. “Many many muslims are afraid of Islam Followers”, Correction Many Many muslims are afraid of Islamic extremist followers! When you say Islamic follower that statement negates the identity of Muslim. You may be an exception and I am sure there are Muslim you are talking about who are ashamed with the weak Iman and faith and changed their name from Mohammed to Moe after 911 and probably dyed their hair blond with the fake blue contact but that does not represent the majority of Muslim as you say “Many Many”. I am sure the there are faithless muslim amongst us who cursed themselves everyday for being born under Islamic faith but please don’t say that they are “many many” . Understand this today war on Islam is through a strategy of creating and sense of inferiority among muslims by portraying islam as a militant and violent religion and I am sure the muslims weak in faith will fall for this and blame islam and muslims for whatever is happening to this world. But you know KamranISS , It does not really matter, Allah has decided to protect this religion and Allah shall protect it. I am also an enlightened muslim and believe in moderation and believe that there is no compulsion in religion. But I know when my faith is being insulted, annihilated and ridiculed.

“My father bought some land from his brother in Pakistan 40 years ago. My father died recently, and our dear uncle, a very good `muslim`, decides to take the land back by going to the court and swearing on the Koran that the Land papers in my posession were fake and the signature upon it, were not his. After a year, we eventually got the land back.
If your own flesh and blood (and `muslim`) can do this, do you expect the west to be better than you?
If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?”

Second what ever your Uncle did has nothing to do with Islamic religion. Tell me if your Uncles cheated someone how is that Islam’s Fault? With all logical perspectives somebody explain it to me where does in Quran and in what verse Islam condone cheating people out of their legal possessions? The fact that your uncle was born under a muslim name to muslim parents does not automatically makes him a Momin and True Muslim. Even Allah (SWT) has not absolved muslim and gave them the “free get out of hell card”, whatever they are going to do in this world they will be punished accordingly in hereafter. To be a Muslim it requires a Constant effort on our Part and it is system of constantly questioning you deeds . You on the other hand broad brushed the entire ummah of Islam with the example of your Uncle and implied Hypocrisy on their part. No doubt there is great deal of work that needs to made on the ailments Islam is suffering, but who is going to do it? (if you are stout and I am stout, who is going to carry the dirt out?) You cannot Judge Islam by the Muslims, We are talking about Islam in its essence and Today’s Muslims do not represent Islam. That responsibility lies with us and it requires an on going effort.


“If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?”

I don’t know what made you put me in the same line as Islamic militant. But I guess if standing up and defending my faith makes me sound like a Militant, I say so be it. It is true that there is Corruption in The Social system but you are confusing the Social system with the Religious system. But tell me what gives west the right attack and insult my Faith if there is a corruption in our Pakistani social system?

re#14
Hello to you KamranISS and I hope your life is good to you and yours.

You are certainly right that we must hope that with time and education and wealth ( I dont mean flashy wealth I mean people having the basic wealth to live a decent life) hopefully comes tolerance and greater understanding. This applies of course as much to western attiitudes as it does to muslim attitudes ( I single them out only in the context of this particular debate.)
My grandmother was an white average fairly uneducated woman of a working class background who died at a ripe old age some years ago. I recall visiting her and her talking about Africans as ``monkeys`` !!! I of course remonstrated with her but couldnt get her to understand how wrong this was. She had heard of evolution and darwin ( at a very basic level!!) and to her simplistic view as Africans were dark skinned and so were monkeys then they must be more closely related to monkeys than we were! What does one do about such determined and ingrained ignorance? It reminds me of the attitudes of some ( a minority I believe) in the Muslim community who think of jews and Christians as inferior. I have even heard Muslims describe Jews as ``pigs``. I think Holocaust denial falls into the same category of ignorance ( willfull sometimes).

Such attitudes can only be challenged by debate and continuing dialogue I think and as you point out such attitudes may pass with the passing of generations.

There are many shameful things that some of our white ancestors did - the african slave trade being one of the worst. I wonder what Muslims, looking back from the future, will make of the Taliban blowing up Buddhist statues, of them bombing schools because girls are being educated, of the Shia/sunni slaughter going on in Iraq, of the beheadings on video tape `` in the name of Allah`` ! I know many Muslims are ashamed of such things now, how much more so as the generations pass.

I agree with your list of things that we in the west can do and that you could add to this list. What do you think those of you not living in the west should do?
Heres my list;
Stop blaming everything on the west.
Get rid of your victim mentality.
Tolerate other religions and beliefs and people who change religion and belief.
Stop seeing religion as the answer to everything (many americans should learn that one!)
And another 768 to you ;-)

We are all Human beings whatever our beliefs.

Re: # 12

Hi billdunc. Greetings.

Being a hybrid of both cultures I can understand both views and the situation.

Not many years ago in USA, if a Negro so much as looked at a white woman, he would get flogged, possibly killed. Slavery was accepted.
Now, in USA, it is accepted that Negroes can marry/have sex with white women.
Were white people not humans a few years ago?
And in a few years they evolved to becoming humans?
What brought this change?
And did it happen overnight?
If all the white people now, could travel back in time and meet their grandparents,
would they be able to reason with them and get them to accept their moderate views?

Whats needed my friend, for the change to happen, is lots of wealth, which buys the:
education,
understanding,
freedom,
tolerance,
etc, etc.

And most importantly, you need time. Time to evolve. Time for new generations to be born. Who are more able and willing to embrace new ideas. Who are strong enough to reject their peers rigid thinking.

You, in the west, can help these people to evolve quicker.
By not supporting supressive regimes.
By not stealing their wealth/resources.
By not selling them arms, so that they murder each other more quickly.
By not destabilising governments that you think may reduce your profits.
Add another 786 ``Thou Shall not`` things here....

The day that I see a shop in Islamabad selling sexy clothes for monkeys with a state of the art hospital for cats next door... I will think ``Yes, the west no longer exploits the east``
:)

@ nadeem_shahzad,
``You know why? because they are afraid of Islam and out of fear they don’t want to know about true Islam and it is their fear that brings hatred for Islam.``

I, and many many muslims I know, are also afraid of Islams followers. We fear for our children.

``Hypocrisy of western world is they want to blame Islam of the symptoms it is displaying for the injustices that has been meted out to it rather than addressing the cause of those symptoms``

That is true. But why should they address the injustices? No one does that, unless its to their advantage. Muslims/Humans everywhere are no different. My father bought some land from his brother in Pakistan 40 years ago. My father died recently, and our dear uncle, a very good `muslim`, decides to take the land back by going to the court and swearing on the Koran that the Land papers in my posession were fake and the signature upon it, were not his. After a year, we eventually got the land back.
If your own flesh and blood (and `muslim`) can do this, do you expect the west to be better than you?
If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?

Pehle apne ghar ko sumbhalo. (Manage your own house first).

@ drsyedasad,
``Weakness leads to exploitation``

Very true.

@ Asad Ali,
``The current Western policy of dividing muslims into ‘moderate’ or ‘non-pure’ and ‘fundamentalist’ or ‘pure’ muslims is counterproductive and is never going to work``

No need for the west to divide us. We are already divided.

1.2 billion muslims:
0.2 muslims = ‘severe’
1.0 billion muslims = ‘moderate’ (not muslims at all, but pretending because it`s in their interest to do so).