The Clash of Stupidities

Re: # 55 by teshah

Like I said, there are women who create fitna, just as there are men who create fitna. But one cannot attribute this particular characteristic to every single one of them.

What Allah (swt) says in the Quran is how to deal with the ones who manifest such behavior. By no means He is saying that all women are evil, or they are inferior to men. I`m sure you remember the verses of the Quran where Allah has admonished the believers for not defending chaste women when they are slandered without a proof. I believe it`s in the Sura An-Nisa or Al-Ahzab.

As for the ahadith, Imam Ghazali may have quoted an authentic hadith, but then may be not. One has to see who the narrators are, and whether there is a verifiable unbroken link or not, to determine the authenticity.

Still, the ahadith and observations you`ve quoted are not to declare woman an embodiment of evil. The central message I see in all of these is that Allah has designed women in a certain manner, for specific purpose(s), that men find beautiful and attractive. Then He has built a strong attraction for this beauty in men, again for specific purpose(s). Just as women are supposed to refrain from abusing their beauty, men are supposed to keep their desires (for this beauty) within limits. Therefore, both share equal responsibility to maintain a healthy society. Shaitaan is the one who exploits our desires, strenghts and weaknesses to his ends, and feminine beauty happens to be one of the most powerful tools he exploits to weaken the believers. Just like he uses wealth, power, and what have you, to tempt different people at different times. If men do not heed the limits then just one ill-intentioned woman can bring down an entire empire.

As for the roles of men and women as spouses, these are not limited to the verses you point to. Please read the entire Quran before forming an opinion on this matter. And read commentaries by Ibn Katheer etc in addition to the ones you`ve already read. I`m sure you`ll find it very helpful.


:-)~~

Re: # 54

ntsyed

You say:

``such a malicious and misleading generalization CANNOT be attributed to the Prophet (PBUH).``

For your information I took this Hadees from Ehyaaulaloom (vol.3, page 118) by Imam Ghazali. He did not consider it malicious or misleading. I reproduce full Hadees in Urdu below:

``Auratein sheitaan ka jaal hein. Agar yih shehwat nah hoti to auraton ko mardon par qaabu nah hota``.

Here ae some more observations about the woman:

``Sa`ad bin Haseeb farmaate hein kih mere nazdeek aurat se barh kar koi cheez khoufnaak nahein`` (E.A. by Ghazali, vol.III, page 118).

``Mein ne apne bahd auraton se barh kar koi fitnah jo mardon ko ziadah muzir ho naheen chhorha`` (Qoul-e-Iblees in Bukhari wa Muslim barawaait Usamah bin Zeid - vide E.A. by Ghazali, Vol.III, p.120).

And now an advice by the creater Himself to his prophet Suleman:

``Sher aur saanp ke peechhe jao magar aurat ke peechhe nah jaao`` Arshaade Rabaani - vide E.A. by GHazali, vol. III, p.120, Suleman ko Allah ki taakeed``

The problem is generally people cannot see woman as such but think of it only in her benign relationships like mother, sister, daughter, etc.

karachi01

Thank you dear for your good wishes.

I am however sorry that you did not comment on the fundamental law governing man woman relationship as spouses laid down in sura Nissa (4/34). For instance it says, to punish rebellious wives you `banish them to beds apart`. Here it is obviously presuming that one has more than one wife and also `loundies` (female slaves) to serve him as otherwise to banish a wife, if one has only a single wife, is a punishment more for the husband than for the rebellious wife.

Re: # 52 by teshah

``No, Sir, you can`t predict the behavior of a woman whom the prophet had descibed as a net (jaal) of Satan. I know of instances where an apparently religiously pious woman wrecked havoc to a joint family just by raising her dirty finger against her father-in-law or a brother- in- law just to get rid of them.``

I`m sure there must be some women like the one you`ve mentioned. But one can`t use the Prophet`s (PBUH) statement to generalize such behavior and label all women as a net of Satan.

Furthermore, such a malicious and misleading generalization CANNOT be attributed to the Prophet (PBUH). He (PBUH) could not have said so about ALL women; i.e. if he (PBUH) said anything like this at all. If indeed he (PBUH) said anything like it, he (PBUH) may have said it about women like Mrs. Abu Lahab, whom Allah has rebuked and condemned in Chapter 113.

I think someone has quoted only a portion of a hadith of the Prophet (PBUH), if it is a hadith. My advice to you is to look up the hadith in its entirety, with the background and history to determine,

a) its authenticity
b) the correct context, if it turns out to be an authentic hadith

The rest is between you and Allah.

:-)~~

Re# 52

Tehshah

``But that law as I said in my previous post could work only in a tribal, polygamous and slave-owning society.``

Boss ! You are so EXTREMIST & HARD LINER in ur perceptions, so no one can helo u. ``ntsyed`` also tried to explain u about truth & facts but it looks that u r determined to not to accept any logical point of view.

We can just wish u ,Good Luck

Re: # 50

Karachi01

Thank you for your good intentioned `bhaashan`. It recalls to me the wise saying, ``Way to hell is paved with good intentions``. You quoted the following Hadees:

``Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,``The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife.``

Isn`t it a simple observation about who is a good Momin but no law when there are secular laws in all civilized countries to prevent cruelty even to the animals. The law which governs the conduct of a woman as a wife is laid down in Sura Nissa (4/34). But that law as I said in my previous post could work only in a tribal, polygamous and slave-owning society.

#47 by ntsyed

You say:

``If one wishes for an honorable standing in the hereafter and as comfortable a life in this world as possible, then one will look for and select a partner with same goals and objective. For the couple that believes in Allah, Quran & Sunnah provide perfect guidelines/roadmap to that end.``

No, Sir, you can`t predict the behavior of a woman whom the prophet had descibed as a net (jaal) of Satan. I know of instances where an apparently religiously pious woman wrecked havoc to a joint family just by raising her dirty finger against her father-in-law or a brother- in- law just to get rid of them.

Re: # 50 by karachi01

No no, we`re only upto believing what we`ve been exposed to :) limited learning that`s called. maybe biased.

:)
RB

Islam and Muslims have long been accused of mistreating women. Whether it is by Orientalists, or the ``average Joe`` or Josephine relying on the media barrage of awful stereotypes to formulate his or her opinion.

Muslim men are perceived as violent, cruel and barbaric towards women in general, but especially towards their own wives, daughters and sisters.

The fact is that such disgusting behavior does occur in the Muslim world, for many of the same reasons it occurs in the United States: a cycle of abuse in the family, socio-economic factors and jealousy.

However, what could be said to distinguish women`s mistreatment in the Muslim world is the general lack of Islamic education amongst men and women about day-to-day matters, including the roles and rights of women.

Mistreatment and abuse of women, and wives in particular is condemned by Islam.

Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,``The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife.``

Now consider the following the statistics about how many women are treated in the United States, taken from the 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics

HOW MANY ABUSED

WOMEN ARE THERE IN THE U.S.?

Women age 12 or older annually sustained almost 5

million violent victimizations in 1992 and 1993.

Women and girls ages 12 and up annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults, almost 500,000 robberies, and about 3.8 million assaults.

WHO ARE THE ABUSERS

In 29% of all violence against women by a lone offender, the perpetrator was an intimate (husband,ex-husband, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend).

Women annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults Friends or acquaintances of the victims committed over half of these rapes or sexual assaults. Strangers were responsible for about 1 in 5.

HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA?

Of the 5328 women murdered in 1990, FBI data indicate that about half or more of them by a husband or boyfriend.

VIOLENCE AMONG COUPLES

A minimum of 16 % of American couples experienced an assault during the year they were asked about it, and about 40% of these involved severely violent acts, such as kicking, biting, punching, choking, and attacks with weapons.

A 1993 national poll found that 34% of adults in the United States report having witnessed a man beating his wife or girlfriend and that 14% of women report that a husband or boyfriend has been violent with them.

THE PHYSICAL DAMAGE

CAUSED TO WOMEN AND CHILDREN BY ABUSE

During the last decade, domestic violence has been identified as one of the major causes of emergency room visits by women.

From 20% to 30% of the women who are seen by emergency room physicians exhibit at least one or more symptoms of physical abuse.

10% of the victims were pregnant at the time of abuse.

10% reported that their children had also been abused by the batterer.

THE ECONOMIC FACTOR IN WOMEN`S ABUSE

*Women aged 19 to 29 and women in families with incomes below $10,000 were more likely than other women to be victims of violence by an intimate.

Sources: 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice. You can order this Special Report (NCJ-154348) ``Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey August 1995`` by calling the Bureau of Justice Statistics Clearinghouse, 800-732-3277and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics.

After reviewing the article I come to the point, that there is noting NEW in this article or having any WOW effect. It is just a stereo type article, with the repeated arguments. The lack of information is also reflecting from this article. The sources of information of author are also very biased & limited.

The debate on `Role of Women” in Islamic society is not new. Those who morn over death of Dutch Film maker should have some psychiatry problem. Pls keep in mind; I am not in favor of any type of killing or murder. But what kind of `WORK`` she did should also be discussed.

Today news is that after France Denmark also posses ban on head scarf or Hijab in public places. Where are the women rights & human rights organization regarding this issue, what is their role? Is this not stupidity?????

I also want to quote the latest Gallup International survey of eight predominantly Muslim countries released on June 2006 in which they stated that “ Muslim women don’t think that they are conditioned to accept second class status or view themselves or oppressed’

More than. 8000 face to face interviews conducted in eight countries. According to poll

1. They should have the right to vote without influence
2. Work outside the home
3. Can serve in the highest level of govt.
4. They didn’t see the sex issue as priority because other issues were more pressing
5. They are “ worried” about the unity amongst Muslim countries
6. Their main concern are violence, political & economical corruption
7. They also believe that Western values can’t help in Muslim world political & economical terms
8. Gallup was shocked by mentioning in its report by commenting “ The hijab, the head scarf or Burqa, seen by West as tool of oppression, were never mentioned in women answers to the open ended questions
9. overwhelming majority of Pakistani women in this survey said religious beliefs was their country most admirable trait

Now after reading above all survey results issued form Washington DC any wise person can understand what the reality is what is wrongly portrait by pseudo intellectuals.

Re: # 6

LOL, training-bra is a solution to that

Re: # 46 by teshah

teshah,

Huzoor...I beg to differ with your statement that ``...Quran is concerned mainly with a slave-owning society and a polygamous familky system...``. It depends entirely on how one looks at this life and everything in it: i.e. from the perspective of this life alone, or looking at it in terms of hereafter. Each perspective offers a different objective, which then influences our choices, preferences, and what have you.

If one wishes for an honorable standing in the hereafter and as comfortable a life in this world as possible, then one will look for and select a partner with same goals and objective. For the couple that believes in Allah, Quran & Sunnah provide perfect guidelines/roadmap to that end.

Therefore, it`s not about slave-owning polygamous family system of simple arabs. The same instructions in the Quran add tremendous value to my marital life, all praises be to Allah, even though I neither own a slave nor am I polygamous. And I`m not alone to benefit from it.

Life has only become complex today due to our own ill-prioritization of our `needs` and `wants` - as individuals and as community. Husbands have always had to work hard to provide for their women and children. What has changed over the years is that no more the men and women know their roles and responsibilities to each other and others around them. We`re more interested in the knowledge about the other`s roles and responsibilities.

Of course, poor governance, unbridled commercialization of femininity, usury based economic policies, poor education & healthcare, and wanton westernization has exacerbated the situtation for the common man. But he must share the blame just as much as everyone else. Add to that an incompetent and overwhelmed judiciary and law enforcement agencies that epitomize corruption, and you have a comprehensive chaos at every level of society. But like they say, Satan never shows himself with horns, wearing red leotards, and holding a pitch fork.

Therefore one has to study Quran and Sunnah to know how to identify Satan in his various disguises. According to a Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH), if one is overpowered by a (human) disbeliever, he/she becomes a shaheed (martyr), but if he/she is overpowered by Shaitaan, he/she ends up in hellfire.

I think men, as well as women, should think about marriage more than twice...but NOT to determine whether to marry or not. Everyone must get married. Rather first and foremost one should think about why one is getting married; his/her ambitions/goals etc one expects from this relationship; how he/she wishes to raise the children, etc etc etc. Then choose a partner that fits in your vision of life, and voila....insha Allah you`ll see very healthy families building healthy societies.

Just review the distant and recent history of various societies...without utilizing the golden rules of living in the Quran, every society is subject to the cliche ``what goes up must come down``. This is the only reason for the unfortunate condition Muslims are in today - they deviated and even abandoned Quran and Sunnahs. But Alhumdolillah, things are changing very quickly as more and more young Muslim men and women are conforming their behaviors to the Quranic teachings. Insha Allah everyone will see some spectacular fireworks very soon.

:-)~~

Re: # 45

ntsyed

A very vague `Bhashan`, indeed. Mind dear Syed, Quran is concerned mainly with a slave-owning society and a polygamous familky system at that, coupled with simple living of the people of the age, espcially the Arabs, who could live on dates and camel` milk alone. In the complex life of today wherein the husband has to work hard to provide `Nan-nufqah` to his family and so often be subjected to various rules of coduct and efficiency, the wife is free of any conduct or efficiecy rules. Our courts make her entitled to `Nan-nufqah` even when they are rebellious, unfaithful and even hostile to their husbands. We can see reports in the news papers almost daily about husbanbs being sent to jail for not providing maintenance to their wives who may be rebellious even.

And above all the Mush is advising women to learn `Judo-Karate` to give a tough fight to their husbands. Should not the men think twice before marrying, but even then the losers will be the men who will have to support their unmarried daughters.

Re: # 44 by teshah

``Btw, what are the duties of the woman as a wife, visa viz, her husband, according to Quran?``

The primary duty of husband and wife, as spouses, is to assist each other in every aspect of life to earn highest place in the heavens in the hereafter, whilst working towards developing a healthy household in every sense of the word in this segment of life on this earth. High level guidelines have been provided to each in the Quran and Sunnah, as per `general` capabilities, capacities, and tendencies that the Creator has designed in each of the sexes, to achieve maximum results for this goal and objective. The details of arrangement is left up to them.

:-)~~

Re: # 43

ntsyed

Btw, what are the duties of the woman as a wife, visa viz, her husband, according to Quran?

Talking of `stupidities`

Historically beautiful women are mostly the ones to make it in the showbiz, and almost all of them have had to expose their ``goodies`` to varying extent at some point in their careers to earn some sort of recongnition.

has anyone ever wondered why the Western women of ``important people`` - royalties, presidents, veeps, PMs, politicians, priests, successful businessmen, etc - are almost NEVER seen in revealing, let alone provocative, dresses?

Neither have I EVER seen a female politician or a business woman in mini mini-skirts with tank tops....in or out of the office.

The only semi-nude pics ever seen among the above group is that of Late Lady Diana`s - in bikinis with her children and/or bf. May be a couple of other such women have been seen in bikinis etc, but their pictures of this nature are published in scandals...and everyone is ready to die to see the skin on these `important` women.

I`m sure they also go to beaches and dress scantily in their private parties, but why don`t they dress so publicly?

Are common Western/westernized women less than the women in important positions, and/or the ones related to men in important positions?

Why is it the high school and university female students, or the women of the low and middle income classes, who are encouraged to emulate the women in showbiz and bare their beauty to ALL - young men and old men and rich men and poor men?

Considering the above, it`s quite apparent who the real stupid is - the common woman who bites into the bait thrown by capitalists, politicians, and what have you....or the one who avoids such exploitation by keeping herself covered?

I must say, Muslim women against purdah/veiling become the torch bearers of such stupidity. They blame the Mullah for demanding women to observe purdah, yet claim to be ``Muslimahs`` without ever completing their first obligation of reading the Quran to learn their rights and duties. I bet 99-100% of these women have never even thought about it this way....neither have their men who encourage `go with the flow` dressing of their women.

I`m sure once again the ``freedom`` slogan will be raised here to defend the stripper, regardless of how she personifies the exploited and perpetuates the brazen exploitation of so many other women unlike her.

:-)~~

Re: # 16 by chaltahai

``Make up your minds my muslim brothers and sisters..once and for all....too much confusion about whether or not to wear the veil. Keep your bitches in burlap...``

Exactly! ....and let chaltahai`s women parade in the streets naked for our dogs to breed freely.....these four legged animals must have the ``freedom to breed`` with their female counterparts among humans.

:-)~~

Re: # 7 by taikonaut

``It is time that Muslim elite stood up for the progress in Muslims societies. Trying to correct Straw, Blair, or Bush is counterproductive. ``

Exactly...I second that opinion!

Muslim elite, the Momin, should stand up and instead of criticizing Bush, Blair, etc., they should have the likes of taikonaut bent over and then deliver hard kicks in the latter`s backsides until they come to their senses or their sphincters are calloused out.

:-)~~