The Clash of Stupidities

Re: # 55 by teshah

Like I said, there are women who create fitna, just as there are men who create fitna. But one cannot attribute this particular characteristic to every single one of them.

What Allah (swt) says in the Quran is how to deal with the ones who manifest such behavior. By no means He is saying that all women are evil, or they are inferior to men. I`m sure you remember the verses of the Quran where Allah has admonished the believers for not defending chaste women when they are slandered without a proof. I believe it`s in the Sura An-Nisa or Al-Ahzab.

As for the ahadith, Imam Ghazali may have quoted an authentic hadith, but then may be not. One has to see who the narrators are, and whether there is a verifiable unbroken link or not, to determine the authenticity.

Still, the ahadith and observations you`ve quoted are not to declare woman an embodiment of evil. The central message I see in all of these is that Allah has designed women in a certain manner, for specific purpose(s), that men find beautiful and attractive. Then He has built a strong attraction for this beauty in men, again for specific purpose(s). Just as women are supposed to refrain from abusing their beauty, men are supposed to keep their desires (for this beauty) within limits. Therefore, both share equal responsibility to maintain a healthy society. Shaitaan is the one who exploits our desires, strenghts and weaknesses to his ends, and feminine beauty happens to be one of the most powerful tools he exploits to weaken the believers. Just like he uses wealth, power, and what have you, to tempt different people at different times. If men do not heed the limits then just one ill-intentioned woman can bring down an entire empire.

As for the roles of men and women as spouses, these are not limited to the verses you point to. Please read the entire Quran before forming an opinion on this matter. And read commentaries by Ibn Katheer etc in addition to the ones you`ve already read. I`m sure you`ll find it very helpful.


:-)~~

Re: # 54

ntsyed

You say:

``such a malicious and misleading generalization CANNOT be attributed to the Prophet (PBUH).``

For your information I took this Hadees from Ehyaaulaloom (vol.3, page 118) by Imam Ghazali. He did not consider it malicious or misleading. I reproduce full Hadees in Urdu below:

``Auratein sheitaan ka jaal hein. Agar yih shehwat nah hoti to auraton ko mardon par qaabu nah hota``.

Here ae some more observations about the woman:

``Sa`ad bin Haseeb farmaate hein kih mere nazdeek aurat se barh kar koi cheez khoufnaak nahein`` (E.A. by Ghazali, vol.III, page 118).

``Mein ne apne bahd auraton se barh kar koi fitnah jo mardon ko ziadah muzir ho naheen chhorha`` (Qoul-e-Iblees in Bukhari wa Muslim barawaait Usamah bin Zeid - vide E.A. by Ghazali, Vol.III, p.120).

And now an advice by the creater Himself to his prophet Suleman:

``Sher aur saanp ke peechhe jao magar aurat ke peechhe nah jaao`` Arshaade Rabaani - vide E.A. by GHazali, vol. III, p.120, Suleman ko Allah ki taakeed``

The problem is generally people cannot see woman as such but think of it only in her benign relationships like mother, sister, daughter, etc.

karachi01

Thank you dear for your good wishes.

I am however sorry that you did not comment on the fundamental law governing man woman relationship as spouses laid down in sura Nissa (4/34). For instance it says, to punish rebellious wives you `banish them to beds apart`. Here it is obviously presuming that one has more than one wife and also `loundies` (female slaves) to serve him as otherwise to banish a wife, if one has only a single wife, is a punishment more for the husband than for the rebellious wife.

Re: # 52 by teshah

``No, Sir, you can`t predict the behavior of a woman whom the prophet had descibed as a net (jaal) of Satan. I know of instances where an apparently religiously pious woman wrecked havoc to a joint family just by raising her dirty finger against her father-in-law or a brother- in- law just to get rid of them.``

I`m sure there must be some women like the one you`ve mentioned. But one can`t use the Prophet`s (PBUH) statement to generalize such behavior and label all women as a net of Satan.

Furthermore, such a malicious and misleading generalization CANNOT be attributed to the Prophet (PBUH). He (PBUH) could not have said so about ALL women; i.e. if he (PBUH) said anything like this at all. If indeed he (PBUH) said anything like it, he (PBUH) may have said it about women like Mrs. Abu Lahab, whom Allah has rebuked and condemned in Chapter 113.

I think someone has quoted only a portion of a hadith of the Prophet (PBUH), if it is a hadith. My advice to you is to look up the hadith in its entirety, with the background and history to determine,

a) its authenticity
b) the correct context, if it turns out to be an authentic hadith

The rest is between you and Allah.

:-)~~

Re# 52

Tehshah

``But that law as I said in my previous post could work only in a tribal, polygamous and slave-owning society.``

Boss ! You are so EXTREMIST & HARD LINER in ur perceptions, so no one can helo u. ``ntsyed`` also tried to explain u about truth & facts but it looks that u r determined to not to accept any logical point of view.

We can just wish u ,Good Luck

Re: # 50

Karachi01

Thank you for your good intentioned `bhaashan`. It recalls to me the wise saying, ``Way to hell is paved with good intentions``. You quoted the following Hadees:

``Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,``The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife.``

Isn`t it a simple observation about who is a good Momin but no law when there are secular laws in all civilized countries to prevent cruelty even to the animals. The law which governs the conduct of a woman as a wife is laid down in Sura Nissa (4/34). But that law as I said in my previous post could work only in a tribal, polygamous and slave-owning society.

#47 by ntsyed

You say:

``If one wishes for an honorable standing in the hereafter and as comfortable a life in this world as possible, then one will look for and select a partner with same goals and objective. For the couple that believes in Allah, Quran & Sunnah provide perfect guidelines/roadmap to that end.``

No, Sir, you can`t predict the behavior of a woman whom the prophet had descibed as a net (jaal) of Satan. I know of instances where an apparently religiously pious woman wrecked havoc to a joint family just by raising her dirty finger against her father-in-law or a brother- in- law just to get rid of them.

Re: # 50 by karachi01

No no, we`re only upto believing what we`ve been exposed to :) limited learning that`s called. maybe biased.

:)
RB

Islam and Muslims have long been accused of mistreating women. Whether it is by Orientalists, or the ``average Joe`` or Josephine relying on the media barrage of awful stereotypes to formulate his or her opinion.

Muslim men are perceived as violent, cruel and barbaric towards women in general, but especially towards their own wives, daughters and sisters.

The fact is that such disgusting behavior does occur in the Muslim world, for many of the same reasons it occurs in the United States: a cycle of abuse in the family, socio-economic factors and jealousy.

However, what could be said to distinguish women`s mistreatment in the Muslim world is the general lack of Islamic education amongst men and women about day-to-day matters, including the roles and rights of women.

Mistreatment and abuse of women, and wives in particular is condemned by Islam.

Consider the following Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira in Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,``The one most perfect in his faith is he whose conduct is best and the best amongst you is he who behaves best towards his wife.``

Now consider the following the statistics about how many women are treated in the United States, taken from the 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics

HOW MANY ABUSED

WOMEN ARE THERE IN THE U.S.?

Women age 12 or older annually sustained almost 5

million violent victimizations in 1992 and 1993.

Women and girls ages 12 and up annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults, almost 500,000 robberies, and about 3.8 million assaults.

WHO ARE THE ABUSERS

In 29% of all violence against women by a lone offender, the perpetrator was an intimate (husband,ex-husband, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend).

Women annually reported about 500,000 rapes and sexual assaults Friends or acquaintances of the victims committed over half of these rapes or sexual assaults. Strangers were responsible for about 1 in 5.

HONOR KILLINGS IN AMERICA?

Of the 5328 women murdered in 1990, FBI data indicate that about half or more of them by a husband or boyfriend.

VIOLENCE AMONG COUPLES

A minimum of 16 % of American couples experienced an assault during the year they were asked about it, and about 40% of these involved severely violent acts, such as kicking, biting, punching, choking, and attacks with weapons.

A 1993 national poll found that 34% of adults in the United States report having witnessed a man beating his wife or girlfriend and that 14% of women report that a husband or boyfriend has been violent with them.

THE PHYSICAL DAMAGE

CAUSED TO WOMEN AND CHILDREN BY ABUSE

During the last decade, domestic violence has been identified as one of the major causes of emergency room visits by women.

From 20% to 30% of the women who are seen by emergency room physicians exhibit at least one or more symptoms of physical abuse.

10% of the victims were pregnant at the time of abuse.

10% reported that their children had also been abused by the batterer.

THE ECONOMIC FACTOR IN WOMEN`S ABUSE

*Women aged 19 to 29 and women in families with incomes below $10,000 were more likely than other women to be victims of violence by an intimate.

Sources: 1995 National Crime Victimization Survey of the U.S. Department of Justice. You can order this Special Report (NCJ-154348) ``Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey August 1995`` by calling the Bureau of Justice Statistics Clearinghouse, 800-732-3277and the National Domestic Violence Hotline Fact Sheet and Statistics.

After reviewing the article I come to the point, that there is noting NEW in this article or having any WOW effect. It is just a stereo type article, with the repeated arguments. The lack of information is also reflecting from this article. The sources of information of author are also very biased & limited.

The debate on `Role of Women” in Islamic society is not new. Those who morn over death of Dutch Film maker should have some psychiatry problem. Pls keep in mind; I am not in favor of any type of killing or murder. But what kind of `WORK`` she did should also be discussed.

Today news is that after France Denmark also posses ban on head scarf or Hijab in public places. Where are the women rights & human rights organization regarding this issue, what is their role? Is this not stupidity?????

I also want to quote the latest Gallup International survey of eight predominantly Muslim countries released on June 2006 in which they stated that “ Muslim women don’t think that they are conditioned to accept second class status or view themselves or oppressed’

More than. 8000 face to face interviews conducted in eight countries. According to poll

1. They should have the right to vote without influence
2. Work outside the home
3. Can serve in the highest level of govt.
4. They didn’t see the sex issue as priority because other issues were more pressing
5. They are “ worried” about the unity amongst Muslim countries
6. Their main concern are violence, political & economical corruption
7. They also believe that Western values can’t help in Muslim world political & economical terms
8. Gallup was shocked by mentioning in its report by commenting “ The hijab, the head scarf or Burqa, seen by West as tool of oppression, were never mentioned in women answers to the open ended questions
9. overwhelming majority of Pakistani women in this survey said religious beliefs was their country most admirable trait

Now after reading above all survey results issued form Washington DC any wise person can understand what the reality is what is wrongly portrait by pseudo intellectuals.

Re: # 6

LOL, training-bra is a solution to that

Re: # 46 by teshah

teshah,

Huzoor...I beg to differ with your statement that ``...Quran is concerned mainly with a slave-owning society and a polygamous familky system...``. It depends entirely on how one looks at this life and everything in it: i.e. from the perspective of this life alone, or looking at it in terms of hereafter. Each perspective offers a different objective, which then influences our choices, preferences, and what have you.

If one wishes for an honorable standing in the hereafter and as comfortable a life in this world as possible, then one will look for and select a partner with same goals and objective. For the couple that believes in Allah, Quran & Sunnah provide perfect guidelines/roadmap to that end.

Therefore, it`s not about slave-owning polygamous family system of simple arabs. The same instructions in the Quran add tremendous value to my marital life, all praises be to Allah, even though I neither own a slave nor am I polygamous. And I`m not alone to benefit from it.

Life has only become complex today due to our own ill-prioritization of our `needs` and `wants` - as individuals and as community. Husbands have always had to work hard to provide for their women and children. What has changed over the years is that no more the men and women know their roles and responsibilities to each other and others around them. We`re more interested in the knowledge about the other`s roles and responsibilities.

Of course, poor governance, unbridled commercialization of femininity, usury based economic policies, poor education & healthcare, and wanton westernization has exacerbated the situtation for the common man. But he must share the blame just as much as everyone else. Add to that an incompetent and overwhelmed judiciary and law enforcement agencies that epitomize corruption, and you have a comprehensive chaos at every level of society. But like they say, Satan never shows himself with horns, wearing red leotards, and holding a pitch fork.

Therefore one has to study Quran and Sunnah to know how to identify Satan in his various disguises. According to a Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH), if one is overpowered by a (human) disbeliever, he/she becomes a shaheed (martyr), but if he/she is overpowered by Shaitaan, he/she ends up in hellfire.

I think men, as well as women, should think about marriage more than twice...but NOT to determine whether to marry or not. Everyone must get married. Rather first and foremost one should think about why one is getting married; his/her ambitions/goals etc one expects from this relationship; how he/she wishes to raise the children, etc etc etc. Then choose a partner that fits in your vision of life, and voila....insha Allah you`ll see very healthy families building healthy societies.

Just review the distant and recent history of various societies...without utilizing the golden rules of living in the Quran, every society is subject to the cliche ``what goes up must come down``. This is the only reason for the unfortunate condition Muslims are in today - they deviated and even abandoned Quran and Sunnahs. But Alhumdolillah, things are changing very quickly as more and more young Muslim men and women are conforming their behaviors to the Quranic teachings. Insha Allah everyone will see some spectacular fireworks very soon.

:-)~~

Re: # 45

ntsyed

A very vague `Bhashan`, indeed. Mind dear Syed, Quran is concerned mainly with a slave-owning society and a polygamous familky system at that, coupled with simple living of the people of the age, espcially the Arabs, who could live on dates and camel` milk alone. In the complex life of today wherein the husband has to work hard to provide `Nan-nufqah` to his family and so often be subjected to various rules of coduct and efficiency, the wife is free of any conduct or efficiecy rules. Our courts make her entitled to `Nan-nufqah` even when they are rebellious, unfaithful and even hostile to their husbands. We can see reports in the news papers almost daily about husbanbs being sent to jail for not providing maintenance to their wives who may be rebellious even.

And above all the Mush is advising women to learn `Judo-Karate` to give a tough fight to their husbands. Should not the men think twice before marrying, but even then the losers will be the men who will have to support their unmarried daughters.

Re: # 44 by teshah

``Btw, what are the duties of the woman as a wife, visa viz, her husband, according to Quran?``

The primary duty of husband and wife, as spouses, is to assist each other in every aspect of life to earn highest place in the heavens in the hereafter, whilst working towards developing a healthy household in every sense of the word in this segment of life on this earth. High level guidelines have been provided to each in the Quran and Sunnah, as per `general` capabilities, capacities, and tendencies that the Creator has designed in each of the sexes, to achieve maximum results for this goal and objective. The details of arrangement is left up to them.

:-)~~

Re: # 43

ntsyed

Btw, what are the duties of the woman as a wife, visa viz, her husband, according to Quran?

Talking of `stupidities`

Historically beautiful women are mostly the ones to make it in the showbiz, and almost all of them have had to expose their ``goodies`` to varying extent at some point in their careers to earn some sort of recongnition.

has anyone ever wondered why the Western women of ``important people`` - royalties, presidents, veeps, PMs, politicians, priests, successful businessmen, etc - are almost NEVER seen in revealing, let alone provocative, dresses?

Neither have I EVER seen a female politician or a business woman in mini mini-skirts with tank tops....in or out of the office.

The only semi-nude pics ever seen among the above group is that of Late Lady Diana`s - in bikinis with her children and/or bf. May be a couple of other such women have been seen in bikinis etc, but their pictures of this nature are published in scandals...and everyone is ready to die to see the skin on these `important` women.

I`m sure they also go to beaches and dress scantily in their private parties, but why don`t they dress so publicly?

Are common Western/westernized women less than the women in important positions, and/or the ones related to men in important positions?

Why is it the high school and university female students, or the women of the low and middle income classes, who are encouraged to emulate the women in showbiz and bare their beauty to ALL - young men and old men and rich men and poor men?

Considering the above, it`s quite apparent who the real stupid is - the common woman who bites into the bait thrown by capitalists, politicians, and what have you....or the one who avoids such exploitation by keeping herself covered?

I must say, Muslim women against purdah/veiling become the torch bearers of such stupidity. They blame the Mullah for demanding women to observe purdah, yet claim to be ``Muslimahs`` without ever completing their first obligation of reading the Quran to learn their rights and duties. I bet 99-100% of these women have never even thought about it this way....neither have their men who encourage `go with the flow` dressing of their women.

I`m sure once again the ``freedom`` slogan will be raised here to defend the stripper, regardless of how she personifies the exploited and perpetuates the brazen exploitation of so many other women unlike her.

:-)~~

Re: # 16 by chaltahai

``Make up your minds my muslim brothers and sisters..once and for all....too much confusion about whether or not to wear the veil. Keep your bitches in burlap...``

Exactly! ....and let chaltahai`s women parade in the streets naked for our dogs to breed freely.....these four legged animals must have the ``freedom to breed`` with their female counterparts among humans.

:-)~~

Re: # 7 by taikonaut

``It is time that Muslim elite stood up for the progress in Muslims societies. Trying to correct Straw, Blair, or Bush is counterproductive. ``

Exactly...I second that opinion!

Muslim elite, the Momin, should stand up and instead of criticizing Bush, Blair, etc., they should have the likes of taikonaut bent over and then deliver hard kicks in the latter`s backsides until they come to their senses or their sphincters are calloused out.

:-)~~

Re: # 39

You bet they are of no avail --We all know. And ofcourse the ratass-mullas will always argue even when in power or not.

I was only presenting the ideas as it`s a discussion board. Conflicts --that`s all the #3 meant to me. Not just 3 Eids are an issue, but disgust is also for those who wished to celebrate according to Saudi`s moon sighting...

Sighs

Re: # 35

Sorry! Your wild guess or even any body`s wise guess are of no avail as the Mullah, calling themselves, `Jayyad Ullema`, are of unanimous view that `ro`et` is mandatory for any ritual and in following that they observed three Eids this year in Pakistan.

… since we are discussing unparalleled stupidities, here’s my 2 cents …

Qibla SR (pun intended)… while projecting the Qibla pole into space, honorable Zainol Abidin Abdul Rashid Sahib overlooked one key issue … that of the praying Muslim continuously facing the Qibla pole, as the space station circles the globe once every 92-or-so minutes.

God forbid, if prayer lasts more than a few minutes, a fervent believer may very well raise his head only to discover that he has been facing not the Qibla, but the projected pole of Amsterdam brothels. How horrific! I can only imagine 70 thousand ugly, circumcised angels cursing the careless believer, consigning him to the lowly gates of hell …

The solution is a space positioning system (“space” equivalent of GPS) which drives the gears at the base of a rotating prayer platform. As the space station revolves around the earth, the positioning system continuously adjusts orientation of the platform, thus ensuring correct direction at all times …

… lastly, the rotating praying platform should come equipped with a red button. If the ever-elusive flying prophet Issa is ever sighted, the believer may press this button, sending a burst of RF signal to the earth, informing its faithful inhabitants of the blessed sighting. Takbeer …

” … surely in the heavens and in the earth are signs for those who believe … “

Re: # 36 by kaalchakra on December 8, 2006 9:52am PT

:) Not taking that serious; Yes, abiding by one`s own wishes would lead to deviation from religion --but see, i said ``unable to pray in a specific form``. Wishing and Being Unable to do anything are two different ideas.

However, there maybe someone out there who can logically direct the northpolians. Also, I`m sure there are alot of ratass-mullas who can not help but run out of answers for such questions. I personally can not direct anyone but that`s why we have scholars. Not talking of southasians

About [Had common sense and innate human wisdom been enough, He wouldn`t have bothered with instructions in the first place]:

Human wisdom has been asked to use after instructions have been given. I`m sure there`s lots in the world which we might not have instructions about; however, that`s where wisdom could be used

raziab9

Don`t take the following too seriously - it`s kind of tongue-in-cheek.

In matters of God`s wishes, it may not be wise to take too many liberties. Better to ask Him directly on issues the He left unclear the last time around. Had common sense and innate human wisdom been enough, He wouldn`t have bothered with instructions in the first place.

Re: # 34 by teshah on December 7, 2006 8:16pm PT

Interesting questions there. Just taking a wild guess. I would suppose, suppose not defend, that these people maybe asked to fast for the 11-12 hours under a given standard time relevance. As God has been linient in many matters, this could fall under that category too.

Secondly, about moon sighting: again, they could choose a standard location. I dont know if these would be really barriers to their practise or not.

Space+NorthSouth Poles aside, a human is allowed to pray while lying down if s/he`s unable to pray standing/sitting. That means, that the direction of one`s body is towards the sky. What would really matter in this case is the ``Niiat`` and the actual function & performance itself.

Hoping someone can give more logical insight.

Re: # 31

Very interesting research but the worthy Dr. has left many questions unresolved.

In early 1970`s when the question of `ro`et` (moon-ighting) was a hot issue (as always it is) in Pakistan, a jayyad aalim and MNA, Moulana Abdul Hakeem Marhoom was delivering a lecture on the subject in the National Centre of Islamabad when a young man stood up and put two questions to the Moulana, I quote hereunder:

``I have received letters from two of my friends, one on the moon and another in antarctica who seek answer to the following questions, respectively:

1. How to celebrate Eid on moon when one can see no crescent and the moon is under one`s feet.

2. How to observe Ramzan fasting in antarctica where the day and night stretch to 6 months.``

The Moulana had no ready answer to the questions perhaps so he had a look at his watch and left for the prayer. The boys however seemed to be very determined to get the answers for their questions so they `gheraoed` the Moulan at the gate and were pestering for the answers by him. I stayed for a while and tried to help moulana to get free by saying to the boys that as Allah did not expect the Muslims to be at these places he did not prescribe any specific rules for the rituals for those places. But now the Muslims are every where when Allah`s ritual rules were meant specifically for the Arabs only. Any how those were the hey days of enlightenment during early days of Bhutto regime when one could ask such tricky questions openly in the public. Today you can`t dare do so.

Re: # 31 by SR
An add on:

Mian Jee, urstruly`s post had to do much with what you wrote.

You said: [Yes, you better be sure before you join our privileged group. Membership comes at a premium.]

Urstruly wrote:
[There is now conclusive evidence, which was presented in the International Aids Conference this year, that circumcision is the second most effective tool to prevent deadly deseases like aids. In the study it showed that circumcision prevented 70% of the potential infections; whereas condom use is claimed to prevenmt somewehre between 95-99% of infections]

The implicit link is:
Circumcision that you need to go through in order to join the group isn’t bad for ya! Infact “circumcision prevented 70% of the potential infections; whereas condom use is claimed to prevenmt somewehre between 95-99% of infections”

You get the link now? Phew, thanks! Please let`s not brag about this no more.

Re: # 31 by SR

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reply to #227 by SR on December 1, 2006 3:54am PT -- Under [Which Islam?]

Sir SR,
My apologies for not following up on your reply in a timely manner. Dear, if i attacked that kind of dogma of yours then i`m not sure if i can utter a sorry for you.

However, why i stated my words that way was becuase you looked at a very close context --infact narrow.

It seems that you haven`t come accorss the literate group of Muslims --there i understand who what kind of people you have been exposed to. Obviously you`ll get your freaky head chopped off by those rat-asses if you try leaving Islam after converting from a hindu :)

Just try picking the right place to go you mainstreamer. G`luck finding it.

PS. I may be a newbie to chowk but is that the right basis to harras? I`m sure you can work this out on your own.

---

#227 by SR on December 1, 2006 3:54am PT Under [Which Islam?]
Re: # 214 & 215 raziab9 {``...SR has long been shut up for his invalid argument... This must have shut up SR#200 ...``}

Its quite amusing when Johnny come lately sort of people read too much into certain people`s posts. It says more about the one who reads, then the one who wrote. Urstruly, is an established and respected chowk interactor whose loyalties and convictions are well known and what he wrote (# 201) had nothing whatsoever to do with my earlier tongue-in-cheek post (# 200) that has seems to have lit up your tail.

...SR

Interesting write up Shandana... I didn`t have anything meaningful to add but as long as the subject deals with stupidity, I thought the following might qualify. Though it would have been better placed in one of Gill`s science and religion articles.


Ground Control to My Imam

Posted on Thursday, December 7, 2006. From “The Determination of Prayer Times and Direction of the Qiblah in Space,” by Dr. Zainol Abidin Abdul Rashid, a member of the engineering faculty of National University of Malaysia. The paper was delivered at the Islam and Life in Space conference last spring in Kuala Lumpur. Translated from the Malay by Jessica Ramakrishnan. Originally from Harper`s Magazine, November 2006.


As trips to space become commonplace, human civilization will no longer be tied to the surface of the Earth. But Muslims, wherever they are—whether on Earth or in space—are bound by duty to perform the obligations of worship.

A Muslim who wants to travel must study the techniques of determining prayer times and the direction of the Qiblah ahead of travel in order to achieve complete worship. I will elaborate the method of determining prayer times and Qiblah direction in space, primarily on the International Space Station (ISS). The ISS is more than 200 miles from the Earth’s surface and orbits the earth every ninety-two minutes, or roughly sixteen times a day. Do we have to worship eighty times a day (sixteen orbits a day multiplied by five prayer times)? This seems unlikely, since it is compulsory for a Muslim to pray five times a day according to an Earth day, as determined by Allah during the creation of Heaven and Earth—no matter where in space the Muslim is located. As for the Qiblah, for Muslims there is only one, the Kaaba, located in Mecca. A Qiblah that changes in reference to a specific system is not in order! It must be remembered that Allah’s creation is ordered.

A user-friendly, portable Muslims in Space calculator could determine the direction of the Qiblah and prayer times on the ISS. Its essential feature would be the use of the Projected Earth and Qiblah Pole concepts. These are based on the interpretation of the holy house of angels in the sky above Mecca. The place is always rich with angels worshiping. As many as 70,000 angels circumambulate it every day. Thus, one virtual Qiblah Pole can be taken as a universal reference to determine the direction of the Qiblah. When the Earth is projected to the height of the ISS, every point on its surface will be projected also, including the Qiblah point, which can be projected upward and downward along the Qiblah Pole. This allows the direction of the Qiblah to be determined in space and in the bowels of the Earth.

Re: # 10

Freethinker

Yu quoted Akbar rightly except line 3 wherein you omitted `woh` after `pardah` which caused the stanza to drop in its `wazan`.

Mahloom nahein aajkal koun sa pardah prha hua he mardon ki aql par. Kabhi Marx ne nahrah lagaya tha, ``Workers of the world rise; you have nothing to loose but your chains.`` Aday before yesterday, Mush, while addressing a women convension in Islamabad, exhorted the women to rise and hit back (their husbands, perhaps). He is obviously aiming at winning the female votes. Uski aql par ghaalban wardi ka pardah parha hua he jo woh yoon aurton ko baghawat par aamaadah kar raha he.

Re: # 28

Goodness!

many women are blanked out by these forces; so much, that they forget that they`ve got some role to play. I guess they atleast ThInK that they are playing the role while doing a $10/hr job.

Off the line:
I remember getting of my car in a punjab village while an elderly women stared at me, who then asked why i didn`t have my head covered. In response, i asked her to cover her legs first which were bare out of the `lacha` she was wearin.

Really, tight scarfs on heads have become a symbol rather than serving a purpose.

Goodluck to `em all,
RB

Re: # 25 by saminasha2 on December 4, 2006 5:42pm PT

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veils as postcolonial statements, veils as feminist statements, veils as an a delineator of personal space and boundaries

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You know it is a pity that our educated elite worry so much about body, that they utterly forget about their brains. Once we lost our women`s intellect to Wahabi and Ayatullah fundoos, we lost our youth, our future.

Generation after generation of boys and girls has gone to the dogs, and our society has been turned into the cesspools of hate, fanaticism, and destruction.

Look at these veil-wielding fundoos of UK. Right there in front of them are the top notch colleges and universities. Oxford and Cambridge beckon them, invite them, beg to come in. Thanks to the veili-watti mothers, the next generation of Mirpuris is marooned to the life of British underclass, and the ghetto mosques, and Jihadi Mullahs.

These veili women produced a generation of Richard Reids who instead of launching new airplanes, ended up blowing up planes out of sky.

Those men and boys from Mirpur have now lived in UK for many generations, still trapped in the ignorance and arrogance of hill billies, still worried about parda, still slaves of Mullah Bakri.

So unfortunate to see these women on chowk who insist on producing even more such men and boys. Thanks to all those ba-parda khawateen of UK. Thank you for producing suicide bombers.

Shameful indeed.

yes & veil as a personal delineator - or else ppl r bumping in2 u all the time - mayb u need a cage w/ wheels 2 move around in

``veils as feminist statements``

LOL. and veiling of mohammad`s wives as a statement of Mohammad`s fragile ego.

Re: # 23

veils as postcolonial statements, veils as feminist statements, veils as an a delineator of personal space and boundaries

Mohar, I hope you meant that quite genuinely.....beej had a quite a point there! :)

Excercise control over women`s bodies (influencing female behavior and form not through competitive mating games but by decree and fiat), I always thought, was about forcibly maintaining stability, order, and inequitous ranking...but Beej makes a compelling case...it is also a key(fascistic) approach to controlling the future...

Keep women locked up (or, much better, teach them to love and take pride in being locked up), and society will automatically stay where it has always been.

Hey Shandana,

Enjoyed this thoroughly. Nobody has a monoply on stupidity and I guess the Muslim nation had to share some with the West. Just as it is wrong of the Mullah`s to insist on wearing the veil, it is wrong for others to insist that Women don`t wear it. Women who wear veils are as oppressed as those who wear miniskirts, actually the one`s who wear miniskirts are more oppressed (the daily shavings, the ingrown hair, ugh).

As for men`s ownership of Women`s bodies. What men want they get. What women want, they get. It is a win win situation, a negotiated equilibrium. Some men like them bare, some men like his woman covered, and women do what they need to get the kind of guy they want. Women who take the veil do so to send out a signal of values and behavioural expectations. Why do women wear veils in cultures where it is not a tradition is a more interesting question that you didn`t explore here. It could be as simple as wearing the veil to signal, `I am the marrying type, don`t fool around with me` Or, `since you are as primitive as a bull, I am going to wear a covering,` Or is it a passive aggressive response, `see here, I won`t won`t take care of my body, you make do with me as I am, Or is it to add mystique? Do Muslim women really believe they that have to be the moral fulcrum? Can it be that they just want some personal space? Are they sick of advertizing that uses the female form to sell everything under the sun? Or is it simply none of those things? Just a fashion fad as like jeans were in the 1960s. Shades of opinion vary--and perhaps clothes have never been as political as they are in today`s frantic modernity.

Rgds
Saima

Re: # 18 by bjkumar on December 4, 2006 12:26pm PT

You got it beej.

However thick skulled followers of Mullah Hindi will never understand it. They shall forever stuck in the ``raw pile of meat`` that you see after a suicide bomber does his evil deed.

``Our mullahs use women’s legs as a platform, presenting their exposure in skirts etc as a sign of the west’s immorality. ..``Conservative Indian commentators clip onto .....

It is said that French people were aroused by legs of table hence Table Cloth was invented.

Re: # 18

Man, you are deep :)

This is a very powerful article and very skilful show of combining Islamic feminism with a good portion of anti-Americanism to make some kinda point.

Since the beginning of time itself, women’s bodies have been used as representation of what stands for beauty in life. Therefore, such bodies have been the subject of countless poems and works of art – and not just from the perspective of the male members of the specie.

The fight over the “ownership” of women`s bodies shall go on. It is not over the anatomy. What is physical about the anatomy can be owned but what the woman’s body represents can not be – can never be. It is perhaps akin to that proverbial CD-ROM with proprietary software – you own the media – but that’s all you own – you never own the code that is ingrained therein.

The woman’s body is important for what it represents – the preservation and continuation of life – what symbolizes the essence of being a woman – and the only role in life that no man can ever, ever duplicate.

The woman’s body hosts life eternal for mankind and accordingly, mankind’s interest in it shall forever be of more than passing interest.

The selling of ``raw meat`` is a multi-trillion dollar industry around the globe. Only in cyberspace, out of 7 billion registered webpages, approximately 70% sell meat. On the softer side, no advertising agency would dare contemplate selling a product without raw meat in it, including medicines for male pattern baldness. So there are vested interests, to keep women naked, making them less sensitive to their modesty, or simply corrupting them to be a part of the consumer based production system. Is it a victimless crime?? You don`t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. All you have to do is to put yourself in a bobcat`s shoes (or paws), see if you can resist raw meat.

Ooook..another column of the friggin veil. Make up your minds my muslim brothers and sisters..once and for all. There is too much confusion about whether or not to wear the veil. I say, do it like the arabs do. Keep your bitches in burlap and make sure they use curlers for their unibrows.

Shandana -- you wrote a shandar column -- congratulations.

Freethinker if Akbar Allahabadi would have been alive today perhaps he would have written it this way:

Purday main kal joh a`aeen nazr chand beebiyan
Akbar zameen mein zillatt-e-quami sey ghad gaya
Poocha ke kub sey aankh pe purdah ye pur gaya
boleeN ke jub se aqkl peh mardo`n kee pud gaya

I don`t understand what Mulim women wants?
hajab in dance party , hajab on seashore. Date with hajab.
all lover of veils should push back to Sudia Arab.

Correction to my last post:
The word ``aql`` was misspelt inadvertently as ``aqk.`` Please note it.
Mohammad Gill

Einstein: Only two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity``.

I am not sure about the universe.

This article reminded me of the following verses of Akabar Allahabadi. I am writing them from memory so the accuracy of diction (particularly of the third line) is not guaranteed. Anyhow it goes like this:

Bey purdah kal joh a`aeen nazr chand beebiyan
Akbar zameen mein ghairat-e-quami sey ghad gaya
Poocha joh unn sey aap ka purdah kya huya
Kahne lageen keh aqk peh mardo`n kee pud gaya

Mohammad Gill

Interesting...but what`s your point?
Shouldn`t people be allowed to wear whatever they want but take cultural sensitivities into account too since every culture is different?

Shandana, it doesn`t surprise me that some people think blouses are getting too small, but I must say I haven`t heard about it or read about it. It won`t do them any good though to complain though.

---

Instead of calling the veil a symbol of ‘separation’, Straw and Blair should have called it a symbol of ‘stupid.’

---

Veil symbolizes many things including separation, stupidity, cruelty, chauvinism, backwardness, orthodoxy, Mulluahism (foolishness), Ayatullahism (even bigger foolishness) and the list goes on.

It is time that Muslim elite stood up for the progress in Muslims societies. Trying to correct Straw, Blair, or Bush is counterproductive.

quote

`` it is only a matter of time before a man invents a mind bra (left brain, right brain, watch them jiggle). ``


Unquote



How about this OLD one, there is nothing Right in the left Brain, and nothing Left in the Right Brain......??

#106 by saminasha2 on December 3, 2006 3:26pm PT
for aashee

Chapter 2

As I hang here floating in the wind, the fragrance of chicken tikka and khachaloo drifts by. I can hear the sellers calling out`` chana jor garam! dahey buray!`` and the screams of children playing cricket in the street. Koels perch on trees nearby and sing their sad refrain. I shall miss them when She comes to claim me. I must absorb every sound, every smell, before it is washed out of me with woolite.

The other bras have already formed their cliques, mostly by size. The A`s chitchat wispily about raindrops and being stuffed into gym bags. The B`s are dreaming about whether their owner will be able to pass her management exams and make it up the corporate ladder. The C`s have the saltiest senses of humor-they whistle at the skinniest ooglers and snicker, ``oye baba, i am too much woman for you, go find my younger sister A!``. The D`s are already planning their lives of rest in the almari or looking at the key ring of the biwi of the house. I listen to them and wonder, what will my life be?


Chapter 1


I am soft and silky, like the youngest petals of a gulabi bush. Here I hang at the chaat bund wallah`s stall, a tender bud waiting for someone to buy me. Men walk by and oogle me all day-they want to handle my clasps and pull at my straps. But the chaat bund wallah protects me and keeps me high above the reach of these common gropers who want to bring me home to their wives, who already imagine me wrapped around their wives ordinary bodies.

When will She come to buy me?

Story of zeena, the sports bra and scout, the chatti bund bra


``Hi, I am zeena, the sports bra and I am here to buff you up. I run on the treadmill and I eat turnips and stay trim. That is why you should not pick me. If you wear me and cut me open all you will find is skin and bones. If you try to unstrap me into my wing, all you will find into is hard muscle.

``In fact, it is so hard, it will break your teeth and if you wear me, I will give you a heart attack. All you people know my most favorite phrase `I`ll be back with more gunpowder under my wings.

Hi, I am scout, the chatti bund bra, I am the scariest , super model bra ever invented in history,
My feathers look like a skull with two bones crossing over it. I am poisonous for those who try to deceive me and love for those who befriends me.I have a fiberglass base. I sail on an skateboard.I am your chatti bund. I have sour meat. I only eat corn. I eat cabbage. I swallowed a whole horn of gunpowder once.``

I am a movie star and model.

``You can`t wear me because Hollywood needs me.

My Life As A Bra by che guevara Chapter 2


Started by scout(new) on December 3, 2006 3:22pm PT

It finally happened one day. I got sold. The chaati-bund wala had taken special care to hang me lowest on the stand, within the reach of the occasional woman who dared buy a bra on her own. As I hung listlessly by my strap, I felt a small hand pulling me by my cups. The chaati-wali felt my every inch. She pulled my straps and tugged at my clasp to make sure I was worth the 50 rupees. I was so excited I almost fell apart at the seams with joy. As she held me against her breasts to check my size, I realized that I wasn’t a young bra anymore. I was growing up. Soon my silky self would be elegantly strapped against live, warm skin. My sahelis (aashee the demicup and samina the minimizer and zeena the sports bra) looked on with longing and despair. It would be some time before they would meet a similar fate. The market had been slow and specialty bras were feeling the pain. Wrapped in tissue paper, I bid adieu to my friends and nestled into the paper bag, my clasps warm with excitement, my cups folded against each other. As the chaati-wali drove home, I eagerly waited for the next step in my journey. Would she like me? Would I be her favorite or would I be banished into the deepest corner of her drawer? As the chaati-wali undressed and took me out of my bag, I gasped and shivered with anticipation……….

Excellent, like all of Mrs. Minhas` pieces I`ve read.

[..Similarly, all the recent brouhaha over whether to draw purdah over the veil could have been avoided if people could just talk straight.....]

Ok, here is the straight talk. We non-muslim men have no problems if the fat, ugly muslim women wear veils. In fact, we wish the fat, ugly non-muslim women also start wearing veils.

Our objection is only to the cute muslim girls wearing weils. Imagine if Madhu Bala, Saira Bano, Parveen Babi or Zeenat Aman (Zeenie baby...yeah!!) wore veils. That would have been a crime against humanity!!