Swearing-in Ceremony with Hand on the Bible?

ntsyed (#657):

You are starting to show signs of violent tendencies, which seem to have become hallmark of ummah in this day and age. This is the travesty of Muslims like you.

+++

- You are following ullema whose views are negated by Quran. This explains my claim that you are ignoring the Word of Allah Almighty.

- On the other hand, I have not resorted to views of Ahmadi-Musilm ullema or anyone else for that matter. I have continued to cite Quran in support of my views … and you keep running away from Quran, into the lap of your ullema.

- Your response on “last prophet” issue further underscores fanaticism and violent tendencies that inflict ummah and their ullema.

- “Some” notes on ahadith may very well exist, but this does not mean much. This does not authenticate volumes and volumes of recorded ahadith that exist today. You are now taking a step back … realizing futility of your “belief” on “some notes”.

- You agree humans are prone to err, but that they could not have erred in recording and authenticating ahadith. This is a contradictory view that negates your argument.

- An apostate does declare his faith … the new faith he now subscribes to. He may leave Islam and become a Christian, for example. He should be free to declare his faith in Christianity. You are the one spinning here …

- Your attempts to paint apostates as necessarily lacking true patriotism are low and speculative, where you judge a person without having any such authority. This is a shameful, low position for a Muslim.

- I have supported my views from what Quran says. I’ll refer you once again to #540 for specific Quranic injunctions. This once again strikes out basis of your ill-thought out arguments ... but then again you seem to not care about what Quran says.

... and this is why the ummah continues to chase its tail ... while blaming everyone else for their own screw-ups ...

Re: # 652 by sattar2

``I am avoiding using absolute statements containing “always” since it completely shuts down other possible alternatives which even Quran keeps open. You seem to be reading too much in my posts.``

Learn the meanings of ``manifestion``.

``Since human works are prone to errors, it is reasonable to use Quran as the main source of guidance. In Quran Allah Almighty addresses “believers” and not only “scholars”.

It is unreasonable for a Muslim to ignore Allah when He addresses him … and to instead look up to “scholars” for guidance.

Jewish scholars also were in agreement to have Jesus crucified. Christian scholars insisted the earth is flat and brutally crushed dissent. Muslim scholars agree that Prophet Issa resides above clouds, in flesh and blood, to this day. I could go on and on … ``

How does consulting the ``Ulema`` tantamount to ``ignoring`` Allah, unless these are ulemas of other faiths?

On the other hand, are you confessing to ignore Allah by following the line Ahmedi Ulema have established about Isa (PBUH) and Muhammad (PBUH)?

``Khilafaat by 2020?

What has not been accomplished for the past few centuries will get done in next 14 years? Come back when this actually happens! Merely speculating is useless. Ummah also continues to insist on Issa-above-clouds, who will descend any day now. Let’s wait till this really happens … before giving in to baseless optimism.``

Now that you`ve declared that you DO NOT intend to reform, [``And since this keeps coming up … yes, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet to appear.``] please don`t be surprised when the authorities smoke you out. I hope you`ll have the courage to maintain this position then ;-)~~

``Pristine form

It is now gone since the Prophet (pbuh) is no longer among us. I am not sure what “notes” you refer to which you “believe” still exist.

You`re free to believe what you want.

Furthermore, there is a difference in “some” notes … and volumes and volumes of ahadith that exist today. “Some notes” existing does not put a stamp of authenticity on volumes and volumes of ahadith.

You assumed I stated or implied that. Perhaps you`re reading too much into my posts. Remember `verification` and `validation`?

Several ahadith contradict each other … as well as contradicting Quran.

Hence, the process of verification and validation was developed with consensus and is now required to assess the authenticity. Just because you deem it speculative does not make any difference to anyone or anything.

``You just agreed that human works are prone to errors. But somehow you don’t think this applies to works of ahadith. You continue to contradict yourself.``

Again, you`re making assumptions by reading more into my posts than you should.


``So having a due process in executing an apostate makes it alright? ``

What else is a due process to achieve then? Would you rather be executed summarily?

How about granting a person freedom to practice his faith without fear of getting killed?

You can paint it `barbaric` or any other way you want, as much as we`d love to grant freedom to an apostate, we couldn`t do so because it goes against the overwhelming evidence of Allah`s Command as established by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Your position in baseless and barbaric, and is clearly negated by Quran.``

Quran is examplified in detail by the Authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH). Since there is overwhelming evidence that the he (PBUH) had the apostates executed, it could not be a negation of the Book, since whatever he (PBUH) did, he (PBUH) did it by the Order of Allah.

Still, you`re free to tell the same thing to the Qadhi.

OK, so a Muslim is required to openly to declare his faith. But an apostate should be killed if he openly declares his faith! This is hypocrisy of highest order, negated by Quran, I should add.

An apostate does not ``declare`` his faith, he ``renounces`` it. If you`re actually not trying to spin everything around for the heck of it, then you are an imbecile of the highest order, I must emphasize.

``Your comment that … an apostate ”can love his nation but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family, and friends`` is speculative and unjust. A person has no right to judge a person like this … and to condemn him the way you are doing here.``

You`re entitled to your opinion, however illogical and insipid they may be. Still I must advise you that your current line of reasoning will never do you any favors.

``#649: I have supported my views from Quran. If this seems like confusion to you, it is because you are ignoring what Allah Almighty is saying to you and me.

I’d rather be “confused” than ignore what Quran says. You are free to do as you choose ... as long as it does not violate rights of others. And this is where I have a problem with your Islam.``

You`ve not ``supported`` anything. All you`ve done is to demonstrate the absence of specific words in the Book. In the process you have sidelined the Authentic Ahadith that deflate your argument immediately.

Still you`re welcome to get in the line full of agnostics, atheists, polytheists, disbelievers, unbelievers, and what have you.

Over and out from this board.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

You believe that Islam is the last and most perfect faith, that the Prophet is the last Messenger of God and the Koran is the last and most perfect book of God. I respect your belief and I hope the same respect will also be extended to those who disagree.

Anyhow, here`s a question for you. There is a country which has a Muslim majority population. Should it be run on principles of an Islamic state or not. And should it premit non Muslims to proselytise to non-Muslims? Should it permit a Muslim citizen to repudiate his belief in Islam provided he does not indulge in any criminal activity or pass derogatory remarks about Islam/Prophet/Koran while doing so.

Regards

Re: # 651 by raziab9

``How shall i adress you Syed sahib?!``

As per recommendations in the Quran and Sunnah, Brother is most appropriate.

M`asSalaamah

:-)~~

re #653 by majumdar on December 20, 2006 9:05pm PT

[So, basically Islam is the only true faith and all other faiths/belief systems are false and their adherents deserve to be wiped out. Thanks for clarifying. ]

no, Islam is not the only faith now. This faith is the last and summation of all other faiths. All other faiths become faithS becase people have refused to move on with God`s continuous books/messangers until the last Prpphet Mpbuh --there only was supposed to be one faith.

This is my firm belief.

Adherents of no other `faith` need be wiped out --they simply need to be offered to be wiped cleean and clear on their already existent path. now we`re back to abc.

Syed sahib/Razia ji,

(Because, abandoning a lie - false gods/godesses/atheism - is not `apostasy`, while abandoning the `truth` - the Oneness and Supremacy of Allah, Prophet (PBUH) to be His Last Messenger, and the Quran - is. )

So, basically Islam is the only true faith and all other faiths/belief systems are false and their adherents deserve to be wiped out. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards

raziab9 (#642),

I remain unsure how you come up with “sedition” as a part of apostasy. Yes, we seem to disagree on basic terms here.

And since this keeps coming up … yes, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet to appear.

+++++

ntyed (#645),

On “always” executing traitors

Verification of one’s reformation is a circumstantial issue. Note that I am not ruling out executing a traitor. I am avoiding using absolute statements containing “always” since it completely shuts down other possible alternatives which even Quran keeps open. You seem to be reading too much in my posts.

Works of ullema

Since human works are prone to errors, it is reasonable to use Quran as the main source of guidance. In Quran Allah Almighty addresses “believers” and not only “scholars”.

It is unreasonable for a Muslim to ignore Allah when He addresses him … and to instead look up to “scholars” for guidance.

Jewish scholars also were in agreement to have Jesus crucified. Christian scholars insisted the earth is flat and brutally crushed dissent. Muslim scholars agree that Prophet Issa resides above clouds, in flesh and blood, to this day. I could go on and on …

Khilafaat by 2020?

What has not been accomplished for the past few centuries will get done in next 14 years? Come back when this actually happens! Merely speculating is useless. Ummah also continues to insist on Issa-above-clouds, who will descend any day now. Let’s wait till this really happens … before giving in to baseless optimism.

Pristine form

It is now gone since the Prophet (pbuh) is no longer among us. I am not sure what “notes” you refer to which you “believe” still exist.

Furthermore, there is a difference in “some” notes … and volumes and volumes of ahadith that exist today. “Some notes” existing does not put a stamp of authenticity on volumes and volumes of ahadith.

Your comment about “verification” and “validation” of ahadith is speculative. It paints with too wide a brush. Several ahadith contradict each other … as well as contradicting Quran.

You just agreed that human works are prone to errors. But somehow you don’t think this applies to works of ahadith. You continue to contradict yourself.

Executing apostates

So having a due process in executing an apostate makes it alright? How about granting a person freedom to practice his faith without fear of getting killed? Your position in baseless and barbaric, and is clearly negated by Quran.

OK, so a Muslim is required to openly to declare his faith. But an apostate should be killed if he openly declares his faith! This is hypocrisy of highest order, negated by Quran, I should add.

Your comment that … an apostate ”can love his nation but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family, and friends`` is speculative and unjust. A person has no right to judge a person like this … and to condemn him the way you are doing here.

+++

#649: I have supported my views from Quran. If this seems like confusion to you, it is because you are ignoring what Allah Almighty is saying to you and me.

I’d rather be “confused” than ignore what Quran says. You are free to do as you choose ... as long as it does not violate rights of others. And this is where I have a problem with your Islam.

Re: # 648 by ntsyed

How shall i adress you Syed sahib?!

I`m in safe hands! When i started at chowk I felt I were playing amongst 20-30-year olds.

Re: # 644 by majumdar

ntsyed`s post 645 replies to many of your questions. I`m done with this board, unless we have a new topic to start off :)


RB

Re: # 641 by sattar2

Gill Sahib – 345 yrs
myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford
ntsyed – 6 yrs
Urstruly – still in diapers (btw, I’d be surprised if he’d respond. He usually leaves the board when he can no longer validate his dogma. But then again, he may come back and start ranting against Ahamdis … so all bets are off …)

LOL....considering the others` experience and youth, your confusion is justified.

:-)~~

Re: # 639 by raziab9

``NtSyed, thank you for your positive comment on my age n` my following of religion: But guess what? Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?!``

`Afwun! You`re welcome!

Let`s just say you`re just 4-5 years older than my oldest child.

:-)~~

Re: # 638 by subhashjoshi

``1. The problem is with interpretation of ``seditious``. What may be non-seditious for one, may be seditious for other. For A, a person quietly quitting his religion is not apostate. For B he is. Yet for C, everyone who doesn`t subscribe to a particular faith may be an apostate.``

Hence, the crime is tried by the appropriate authorities viz the (Islamic) judiciary.

``2. Clashes don`t always happen on the basis of religion, and even when they do, most of the times the underlying reasons are different, with religion being a facade.``

Exactly! Religion is most capable of minimizing such opportunities by virtue of the common ideology above everything else. Which then puts the onus on the ideology, which means the ideology has to be flawless to maintain its supremacy. Scholars of comparative religions concur that Islam is the only religion which qualifies as a flawless ideology. This in turn establishes the Islamic system most flawless, hence productive, system on this planet.

``3. We are not talking of communities who are ``at war`` with each other, therefore the example of enemy camp etc doesn`t hold good.``

The differences, though, allow one community or the other to collude with enemies, and weaken the nation from within.

``4. Non-muslims are not lobbying for ``death to apostates`` in countries of their majority, although that could have been easier. And Islamic countries are some of the most strife-torn places around the world in recent times.``

True! The reason for that is not because these non-Muslims are goody two shoes. Like I said, it is because they have established atheistic system of governance. Atheism being a form of apostasy cannot turn around and accuse religious constituents `apostates of apostasy`. The reasons for Muslim countries being strife-torn are many - few internal and mostly external...the latter exploiting and fueling the former.

``5. The scriptures are not valid for today in toto, because although we do the same things, the way we do them, and also our environment, has changed a lot.``

Now that the board is about to be off the front page, perhaps at a later time you`d like to elaborate on how do we do the same things differently in a different environment?

As far as I`m concerned, only the technology has changed and will continue to change. May be you`ll be able to convince me otherwise.

:-)~~

Re: # 635 by majumdar

``So what is the solution for non-Islamic states- to reunite church and state and reduce all those people who follow minority faiths or minority interpretation of majority faith to second class citizenship.``

I guess there`s not much to do for such states without exacerbating the existing resentment between the communities. Post 9/11/2001 USA, UK, France, Holland, Israel, India, and others are examples before our eyes today. Minorities in these countries are being treated as second class citizens (officially and unofficially) as we speak, where majorities are atheistic seculars and minorities are religious/religiously inclined groups. Racial profiling and legislations against certain religious practices are just two examples to cite without starting a whole new boisterous tangent.

Personally I foresee things to get a lot worse before anything good happens. Stay tuned with your eyes and ears open.

:-)~~

Re: # 636 by sattar2

``I would hesitate to use the word “always” when referring to execution for sedition. You are overlooking the possibility of one getting reformed and being forgiven.``

Meaning, one could `promise` not to do it again when caught, and get away with the damage he`s already done; or get a slap on the wrist at best. I wonder what does Ahmedi manifesto say about Ahmedis reverting to Islam?

Considering the nature of the crime it would be a huge risk, since the convicted (per your statement one is convicted of the crime) may continue such an activity covertly and cause more damage. In that case, the state will have to allocate tremendous resources to monitor the individual`s ``reformation``, and still there will be a chance that he can inflict heavy damages to the state on probation. What if he doesn`t reform? No state can take such a huge risk with a person convicted of sedition. However, he can be ostracized, exiled, etc, if he demonstrates sincerity in his promise to ``reform`` himself.

Unfortunately, I never came across your ``answer`` implying that even Ahmedi ulema can be wrong, otherwise I would not have insisted. But thank you for the clarification anyways.

I agree with you that all human work is prone to errors, including ours. Therefore, it would not be wise of me to interpret the Quran on my own. Not without guidance and verification from bona fide authorities on the Book on any and every subject, since these authorities have a significantly expansive knowledge of the Quran due to the amount of time and research they`ve put in to collect it.

Logic dictates that if there are more than one such people with differeing views, then a consensus of these established authorities is to be obtained. People in disagreement should respect that consensus.

Therefore, if your ulema are just as prone to errors, and their interpretation of Quran and authentic ahadith is negated by most of the previous and contemporary authorities on Quran and Sunnah, then my friend you`re more likely to be wrong than anyone else here. I`m sorry, but that`s just the way it is. Because there has to be a standard and a process.

The unfortunate reality of Muslims today is due to the very reason that every Tom, Dick, & Harry is sticking to his guns as far as interpreting Quran and Sunnah is concerned, which has resulted in sectarian strife.

Rest assured, we`re working diligently to remove these differences and bring everyone on to the original platform - Islam. You will be pleasantly surprised to know that US, UK, Israel, India, and other non-Muslim states are actually helping quite generously in this effort. That`s why NIC has predicted in its latest report, titled 2020, that political Islam will transcend national boundaries by the year 2020. In other words, reestablishment of Khilafah. Considering the world events, my estimates see it happening much sooner than that.

”Pristine forms”
Unfortunately, I disagree with you. Not only did the Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them) were able to ask him for clarification as needed and to learn from his examples, they also either jotted down the Prophet`s (PBUH) actions and speech themselves, or had others do it immediately. I believe some of the original notes are still present somewhere. This is verified by the fact that several Companions (may Allah be please with them) wrote down the Quranic verses as the Prophet (PBUH) conveyed to them verbatim; even though only Zaid bin Thabit (ra) was the designated scribe of the Quran by the Prophet (PBUH) himself. In case of oral narrations of the ahadith, there is a criteria (developed by the Companions (ra) and later scholars) to discern the authencity of the narration, which includes, but is not limited to, verification and validation by other reliable sources.

Those notes and narrations by the Companions (ra) served as the primary sources of ``historical documents`` we study today. Otherwise, there could not be a ``biography`` of the Prophet (PBUH) either.

``Any comments on views of Urstruly?``

I concur with him 1000% !

Giving you the benefit of doubt, I think your confusion lies in your misunderstanding of our belief. You seem to have the impression that we wish to execute an apostate the moment he commits it. There`s always a due process. Perhaps your impression is a result of brainwashing most poeple receive via the Western mainstream media presenting Muslims as Arabs of the pre-Muhammad (PBUH) era.

``What about the litmus test? Should a Muslim convert openly declare his faith? Or should he have to hide it?

A person reverting to Ialsm is REQUIRED to declare his/her faith openly, even if he/she is killed for it! In fact, that would be an ideal death (which is inevitable anyway) that he/she joins the highest level of `shuhada` - i.e. he/she is killed for bearing witness to the ultimate truth as soon as his/her sins are wiped off which he/she may have committed prior to reversion. Yasser and Sumayya (ra) come to mind as the earliest examples. Whether one is killed, incarcerated, or allowed to roam free and prosper as a Muslim, his reversion brings more people to revert to the ONLY Truth - Islam.

Why?

Because, abandoning a lie - false gods/godesses/atheism - is not `apostasy`, while abandoning the `truth` - the Oneness and Supremacy of Allah, Prophet (PBUH) to be His Last Messenger, and the Quran - is. Even children have proven it to be the case. Therefore, declaring one`s apostasy incites sedition against Allah and His Messenger (PBUH).

I have already addressed the security aspect of this point earlier, I think in my post to subhashjoshi.

``Can an apostate still love his nation? Or does apostasy necessarily mean he is a traitor to the Muslim-nation where he resides?``

Yes, he can love his nation, but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family and friends.

Again...apostasy is about a person renouncing his previous belief in

a) Oneness and Supremacy of Allah
b) Muhammad (PBUH) as His last Messenger
c) Quran as the Word of Allah, intact in its purest form

If the guy doesn`t believe in one of these, then he doesn`t agree with the other two either. Which means, he no longer subscribes to the system given to us by Allah. Which means, manifestation of this renunciation is rebelling against the system established by the state. Then how can he be anything except a traitor?

I hope it was clear and unambiguous enough.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

(You said you do not beleive in any of the above - I`m not going to go around and mock you )

And although you believe all of the above, I will respect your belief. That I believe is the principle on which every secular society is based.

(is involved in seditious activit(ies).] )

And pray, what is a seditious activity.

(``Shall by punished by human beings``. )

As far as God is concerned, I am sure He will judge both of us by the same yardstick at the right time. And that yardstick will be His own not what we think it is.

(Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?! )

I am 34, if that is of any relevance.

Regards

Re: # 641 by sattar [just for the fun of it]

you said: [myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford ]

That makes you 20 too! Or if it is 20-25 then I can conclude that guys are slow in growing up! I`m telling you, this is a reasonable conclusion.

Ha!
RB