Swearing-in Ceremony with Hand on the Bible?

Razia ji,

(Aw, common in --if you read the 300 recent posts, you`ll have a pretty good idea of what was going on. However, if it starts to sound boring, you may leave. PS. this is not an invitation to Islam!)

Well actually my interest in religion, my own or otherwise, is very limited. But I would be interested in knowing your views (mind you your own views and not ur interpretation of the views of the Koran/Bible/Gita/Torah etc.) on this.

Is it right to kill or otherwise punish a human being who refuses to believe in God or believes in a God diff from yours or a multiplicity of Gods or who having once been a believer ( In Islam or any other religion) choses subsequently to refuse to believe?

Regards

Arguments about whether or not it is right to kill an apostate? Do you think it calls for arguments?

Re: # 603 by subhashjoshi


Dear subhashjoshi, If you don`t happen to follow any scriptures then it is not anyone`s fault. If you have any arguments to what was been discussed, you are very very welcomed.

Re: # 606 by kaalchakra

This is what urstruly has been implying as well. Glad one more appreciates :)

re: ntsyed # 604

A very good post (except for any references to Mirza Ahmed, about whom Sattar knows much better).

A lot of people simply don`t get this point of view. Unfortunately for them, their not getting it doesn`t mean that it doesn`t represent a firm belief of and powerful motivator for others.

Re: # 583 by sattar2

It means the same thing, only if you had the brains to figure it out.

``manifestataion`` of apostasy means one has declared it. Naturally one does not do so to get killed. Declaration of apostasy instigates sedition in the community, and sedition is punishable by death.

On the other hand, if one is quiet about his apostasy, then he cannot be put to death as there is no evidence of instigating sedition.

Don`t flatter yourself that you`ll have the privilege to `deal` with the winner. You are a NOBODY on this matter.

:-)~~

Re: # 581 by sattar2

I never said it`s ``ok`` to kill apostates. I said if an apostate manifests his apostasy, he MUST be killed. I say so, because that is the position of our Prophet (PBUH). He (PBUH) made this decision by the power vested in him by Allah (SWT). It makes perfect sense to mete out such punishment for seditious activities. Manifesting one`s apostasy by default becomes sedition and disrupts peace in the society. One is free to abandon Islam quietly, and in such an instance the state cannot punish him. But if an apostates engages in spreading his apostasy, it is to be considered sedition, and MUST be treated as traitorous activity, and MUST be punished by death.

Mirza Ahmed`s declaration of prophethood was not only blasphemy [for denying that the Prophet (PBUH) was not the last prophet of Allah], it was apostasy. Even then, only the law was passed but not carried out. His ridiculing Isa (PBUH)`s ascent to heavens and expected return to earth is yet another blasphemy, because that is an established prophecy of the Prophet (PBUH) validated by many Sahih Ahadith, and Mirza denied it to justify his prophethood. This is not a separate discussion.

You cannot sit there and tell me that all Mirzais are innocent bunch. I know some who are innocent and harmless, and I know of some who are actively engaged in making life difficult for Muslims by virtue of their high positions in the Pakistan Armed Forces. The former receive my compassion just as anyone else, but the latter only deserves capital punishment.

You claim to stick to the Quran, while in complete disregard for the Sunnah, even though the 40 verses throughout the Quran instruct, advise, and encourage the believers to obey the Prophet (PBUH) in every matter just as they obey Allah.

Why does Allah repeat this instruction 40 times, when saying it once is enough?

What is the point of such an instruction when every Tom, Dick, and Harry like you and I is to interpret the Quran on our own?

What is the point of the second part of the Kalima (I bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger) if nobodies like you and I can flout his decisions at will to support our arguments?

Just because you do not agree with all the companions of the Prophet (May Allah be pleased with them), exegetes, and scholars who devoted their entire lives to Islam, does not make any difference to any one. Anything that anyone say is NOT ``ir-@#%$#@$-relevant`` just because it doesn`t suit your argument.

Why did you avoid to address the point that you and/or your ``ulema`` could be just as wrong in your and/or their interpretation of the Quran as Ibn Katheer?

I know you will refrain to address this point, because that pulls the earth from underneath your feet. Your whole argument will fall flat if you conceded this much.

The bottom line is that you are a belligerent fool....who`s got his foot stuck in the railroad tracks by his own foolishness...and is now blaming everyone else for the train when its about to make mince meat out of him.

Re: # various

Isn`t it possible to decide what is good or bad for us in this day and time, without quoting copiously from scriptures?

Re: # 599

[Deuteronomy 25:5-6 states that if the wife of a person dies, and has no child, the deceased’s brothers have the right to go in unto her.]

What does it mean, Sattar saheb? What are the dead woman`s brothers supposed to do?

Re: # 598

Yes, that`s a whole another issue which i wish to let alone. To add, I wish to live peacefully with my Ahmadi friends and anyone else back in Pakistan --too many other issues to resolve first :)


Lovv,
RB

On the subject of errors in ahadith … here’s one that makes the point. It is inconceivable to reconcile such ahadith with message of Islam or the personality of Holy Prophet (pbuh). For a sensible Muslim it is easy to see how this hadith is either at least partly fabricated, or is missing some important aspects of its context.

+++

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

+++

Of course Urstruly will insist that this hadith is fully accurate. He will then try to reconcile this hadith with the greater message of Islam and the personality of Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) ... disfiguring the face of Islam in process ...

Have a good weekend folks …

Urstruly (#579),

You are now validating your views from Bible. It is ironic for a Muslim to run away from Qruan and seek guidance from Bible.

Here are some Biblical teachings you overlooked. These show that Torah has been tampered with (at least from the viewpoint of a Muslim) …

+++++

- Exodus 21:20-21 states that if a man beats his slave and the slave lives for a day or two before daying, that’s alright. Savagery of this teaching needs no further comment.

- In Genesis 19:26 is stated that Prophet Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt. This was later corrected by Quran in 7:84 that Lot’s wife stayed behind.

- Genesis 19:30-36 reports that daughters of Prophet Lot got their father drunk, and committed incest with him.

- Genesis 9:20-22 states that Prophet Noah got drunk, got naked, and was seen by his sons in this condition. In Genesis 6:9 is stated that Noah was a just, perfect man, who walked with God.

- Deuteronomy 25:5-6 states that if the wife of a person dies, and has no child, the deceased’s brothers have the right to go in unto her.

+++++

I hope this cures your obsession with Torah. It is easy to see how ahadith too could have sufferred similar tampering.

More later …

raziab9 (re #597)

OK, since you asked, here’s why …

#588: ”… Why Ahmadis are an issue is because they claim to be Muslims and do not accept a Muslmaiat fact that makes one a Muslim: Prophet Mohammad pbuh was the last prophet -- period. Thus, they no longer are Muslims

Not just that but they also, ofcourse, invite people to their religion: Which is a threat to Islam --not to their ``Islam``. This kicked them out of Pakistan. And yes, they were killed too. Both verses practised.”

You are suggesting that Ahmadi-Muslims pose a threat to Islam and are rightfully maltreated in Pakistan. Your comments indicate malice and ill feelings. And you validate hatred and persecution of others on basis of Quran. That’s why …

[As a side note, nothing in Islam suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet. It is a mistaken notion. It is ok to make a mistake. Issues need to be discussed for better understanding between people with differing viewpoints. What irked me was your use of ideological differences to validate hatred and persecution of others.]

No hard feelings anymore from my side ... hopefully you understand my issue with your comments. There is enough ideological hatred and violence in the world ... let`s not add to it anymore ...

Re: # 596

Alrighte!

May I ask what was in your post 559 for me?

``raziab, I can handle only one idiot at a time ... wait for your turn ..``

RB

Urstruly (#591),

Your post is full of speculation, without firm basis for your opinions.

For example, you suggest that apostasy equates treason and that a non-Muslim preaching to Muslims also constitutes treason. Where did you get this?

While discouraging apostasy, Quran grants freedom to a Muslim to leave Islam. It strikes at the base of religious fanaticism by declaring that there is no compulsion in matters of faith. #540 has more details.

Your comments indicate delusion and paranoia. It is a lot of “world is falling” talk without much to validate your views.

Your comments about Ahmadi-Muslims further indicate similar pattern of paranoia (to make you happy, I`ve refrained from calling you an idiot here ...)

raziab9 (#590):

Agreed. Ahadith are works of humans, and thus prone to error. One thus needs to be careful and not follow them blindly.

Ahadith were narrated across generations, over decades and centuries. It is therefore not surprising that despite best human efforts, errors crept into the records. Furthermore, capturing the exact context of what was said, what was not said, what was approved or not approved or discouraged or not discouraged, with a nod of a head or words or silence … over centuries across generations … is a process that is not error free by any stretch of imagination.

It is not surprising that some ahadith exist that were either fabricated, or are not complete, or are missing the context, or have incorrect context … etc. etc.

+++++

Allah Almighty vows to be a Guardian over Quran. No such divine promise was made about earlier scriptures and we see that they got changed at the hands of people. Ahadith is another example … regarding which no divine promise of protection is made.

The fact that some ahadith are corrupted should not surprise anyone who has even casually studied history.