Swearing-in Ceremony with Hand on the Bible?

Re: # 673

:)
Ha! i just tried to make my day.

Razia ji,

(you haven`t responded well to it. )

Well, what exactly do you mean by that- that I haven`t given enough responses or that I have not accepted your POV.

(Have they been answered well )

Yes. Thanks.

Regards

Re: # 671

I have answered all your questions all the way with the help of others and you haven`t responded well to it.

Have they been answered well --I guess I triggered your interacts and should be asking the above question.


Happy Dewali, whenever it arrives!
RB

Razia ji,

Happy Eid in advance. God bless u.

Regards

Re: # 37

``End result – Pakistanis (for all practical purposes read Muslims) SCREWED!``

How can you say that? Of all the world it is the Pakis only who cannot call themselves Muslims as of right without submitting an affidavit to that effect each time they claim to be so `with no end result`, but only a feeling of degradation and insult as human beings.

Re: # 29

taikonaut

Good analysis indeed. But how would explain removal of the liberal regime of Saddam in this cotext? Their madness seems to be without any method or scheme.

Yes but humans, especially on chowk, have sometimes turned out to be wrong mediators of knowledge :)

Anyhow, I`m hoping to turn up with questions but I already have Hindu/Sikh live friends who could communicate on any issues right on spot --I hope and wish to have time to put brains in their literature once I`m finished with mine : )


Take care,
RB

You could wish me for Eid too which`s coming up on 1st ;)

Razia ji,

Merry X-mas to you too. And incidentally, Happy B`day MAJ (pbuh)- in advance.

Why bother reading whole books if someone who knows can answer ur questions. And feel free to ask me any questions, if it is possible for me to answer them, I will try my best.

Regards

Merry Xmas!

RB

... LOL all you want ... but blatant hypocrisy of ummah should shock any sane person.

Collectively they seem to have lost the sense of right and wrong. They seem unable to distinguish between what is just and what is blatantly unfair. This thought process has resulted in a culture that implicitly, and at times openly encourages suicide-bombings, sectarian violence, hatred for those with differing beliefs, etc.

This is a sad state of affairs for followers of the Finest Book and the Finest Prophet (pbuh). And this has little to do with Ahmadi-Muslims and their persecution. This culture of violence hurts the ummah itself the most. Its innocent men, women, and children pay dearly as their communities stay trapped in vicious cycles of ideological haterd.

Let`s not blame the west, or the Jews, or anyone else. Ummah would do better by trying to strive for peace in their communities. They would certainly find peace if they followed teachings of Quran and sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), and not remain obsessed with killing apostates, adulterers, blasphemers, etc.

Like I said ... LOL all you want. The joke is on the ummah. And if weren`t for the misery of the innocent ones, it would indeed be quite funny ...

Over and out!
Enjoy the holidays ...

Re: # 663

LOL! Then let God deal with this irony :)


Zoom Zoom
RB

… what logic is that?

- To try an apostate through due process and then execute him for leaving Islam?
- That a Muslim should openly declare his conversion, but if an apostate does so, he should be killed? Is this what you call logic?
- That a Muslim should preach to others, but non-Muslims should be punished for preaching to Muslims?

Is this Islam? Or is this tyranny in the name of Islam? Let’s call a spade a spade.

+++

Look, on one hand you think apostasy has no worldly punishment, but then you agree with ntsyed and Urstruly who want to execute them.

Then you go on to equate apostasy with sedition. Where are you getting all this? What`s next? Adultery equal to sedition?? You can’t make up your own mind … never mind about my sports car!!!

The ummah is going to the dogs, and its silly nilly followers have their heads buried in the sand, discussing punishment for apostasy and when Issa-ibne-Marriam will descend from the skies.

Logic? This is sheer nonsense. Ummah’s beliefs are their business, granted. But they have no right to mistreat others while preaching senseless violence. If you can’t see this point, maybe you too need to get your head examined. Sports car is always a nice option though ... if you can ever see straight and tell day from night ...

Re: # 660 by sattar

Ntsyed is ``Over and out from this board``!

Sattar2, you have simply refused to understand anyone`s logic; set aside mine. When refusal happens then there`s no use of arguments. urstruly`s out, ntsyed sahib`s sick of this, and now what will you do here? I guess the only option is to spin your red-car wheels.

:D
RB

Re: # 656 by majumdar

while respecting your belief,

``Should it permit a Muslim citizen to repudiate his belief in Islam provided he does not indulge in any criminal activity or pass derogatory remarks about Islam/Prophet/Koran while doing so.``

It should allow all that provided [s/he does not indulge in any criminal activity or pass derogatory remarks about Islam/Prophet/Koran while doing so]

Country with Muslim majority population should be run on principles of an Islamic state unless otherwise elected.

By the way, you`ve asked questions all the way. Is this your R&D?! If yes, I don`t know if you are opening the right books. :)

RB

... in other words, ntsyed chanda jee, you are putting lipstick on a pig and trying to enroll it in miss usa pageant ...

There are waaaaay too many skeletons in your ullema`s closet ... so you can shut up and stop telling me what your ``respected`` ullema believe. They are a bunch of uncouth, illiterate, fanatics ... and only an idiot would fall for their tricks ...

ntsyed,

[majumdar, this addresses some of the issues you are raising …]

… furthermore, here are some thoughts on your ullema and what they preach.

History of Islam is rife with “fatwas of kuffr” (edits of disbelief) between ullema of various sects. Each sect of Islam has been declared heretic, kaffir, by other sects at one time or another. There are shia, sunnis … and then there are deobandis, wahabis, bralvis … and what not … each declaring others as non-Muslim.

Furthermore, these ullema continue to incite violence against other sects. I recall shia-sunni violence which would shut down parts of Karachi each Mohorram. We see inter-sectarian violence in Iraq nowadays between Muslim groups. History of Islam is replete with inter-sectarian violence, with ullema sowing seeds of hatred and fanaticism …

But you (and Urstruly) keep citing verdicts of these ullema to validate your views!

These ullema also tell us to believe in a prophet residing above clouds, in flesh and blood, for two thousand years now (and counting!!). This is one of their many beliefs that makes no sense at all.

Every time I bring up this Iss-in-the-sky issue, Urstruly gets defensive and withdraws. When I cited Maudoodi’s support for this belief, Urstruly quickly pointed out that he does not agree with Maudoodi on everything. What? Urstruly is disagreeing with centuries-old Islamic teachings here!?

But there’s more:

Take Naqshbandi for example … another low-IQ Muslim, with scores of scholars to back up his views. He believes that a moratorium should be applied on punishment for adulterers. That is, it was OK to kill adulterers since this is the practice of Prophet of Islam (pbuh), but there is no need for this practice nowadays.

[And if you read Quran (that Book you run away from), it has been specifying lashes for adultery all along!! Could it be more clear??]

Furthermore, Naqsh Sahib has a few choice words for Maudoodi, your hero of Islam. Do ask him if you ever get a chance … and try not to get agitated by his response.

On the other hand Urstruly thinks Naqshbandi’s brand of Sufi-Islam is based on innovation and has no place in Islam. Naqshbandi and his ullema think otherwise and curse Urstruly’s ullema. Need I say more?

Hopefully this adequately highlights absurdity of ullema’s views, their own turmoil, and inter-sectarian hatred and violence between their ranks.

So you should stop telling us what your bona fide ullema believe. It is utter rubbish … and has nothing to do with Islam or common sense.

ntsyed (#657):

You are starting to show signs of violent tendencies, which seem to have become hallmark of ummah in this day and age. This is the travesty of Muslims like you.

+++

- You are following ullema whose views are negated by Quran. This explains my claim that you are ignoring the Word of Allah Almighty.

- On the other hand, I have not resorted to views of Ahmadi-Musilm ullema or anyone else for that matter. I have continued to cite Quran in support of my views … and you keep running away from Quran, into the lap of your ullema.

- Your response on “last prophet” issue further underscores fanaticism and violent tendencies that inflict ummah and their ullema.

- “Some” notes on ahadith may very well exist, but this does not mean much. This does not authenticate volumes and volumes of recorded ahadith that exist today. You are now taking a step back … realizing futility of your “belief” on “some notes”.

- You agree humans are prone to err, but that they could not have erred in recording and authenticating ahadith. This is a contradictory view that negates your argument.

- An apostate does declare his faith … the new faith he now subscribes to. He may leave Islam and become a Christian, for example. He should be free to declare his faith in Christianity. You are the one spinning here …

- Your attempts to paint apostates as necessarily lacking true patriotism are low and speculative, where you judge a person without having any such authority. This is a shameful, low position for a Muslim.

- I have supported my views from what Quran says. I’ll refer you once again to #540 for specific Quranic injunctions. This once again strikes out basis of your ill-thought out arguments ... but then again you seem to not care about what Quran says.

... and this is why the ummah continues to chase its tail ... while blaming everyone else for their own screw-ups ...

Re: # 652 by sattar2

``I am avoiding using absolute statements containing “always” since it completely shuts down other possible alternatives which even Quran keeps open. You seem to be reading too much in my posts.``

Learn the meanings of ``manifestion``.

``Since human works are prone to errors, it is reasonable to use Quran as the main source of guidance. In Quran Allah Almighty addresses “believers” and not only “scholars”.

It is unreasonable for a Muslim to ignore Allah when He addresses him … and to instead look up to “scholars” for guidance.

Jewish scholars also were in agreement to have Jesus crucified. Christian scholars insisted the earth is flat and brutally crushed dissent. Muslim scholars agree that Prophet Issa resides above clouds, in flesh and blood, to this day. I could go on and on … ``

How does consulting the ``Ulema`` tantamount to ``ignoring`` Allah, unless these are ulemas of other faiths?

On the other hand, are you confessing to ignore Allah by following the line Ahmedi Ulema have established about Isa (PBUH) and Muhammad (PBUH)?

``Khilafaat by 2020?

What has not been accomplished for the past few centuries will get done in next 14 years? Come back when this actually happens! Merely speculating is useless. Ummah also continues to insist on Issa-above-clouds, who will descend any day now. Let’s wait till this really happens … before giving in to baseless optimism.``

Now that you`ve declared that you DO NOT intend to reform, [``And since this keeps coming up … yes, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet to appear.``] please don`t be surprised when the authorities smoke you out. I hope you`ll have the courage to maintain this position then ;-)~~

``Pristine form

It is now gone since the Prophet (pbuh) is no longer among us. I am not sure what “notes” you refer to which you “believe” still exist.

You`re free to believe what you want.

Furthermore, there is a difference in “some” notes … and volumes and volumes of ahadith that exist today. “Some notes” existing does not put a stamp of authenticity on volumes and volumes of ahadith.

You assumed I stated or implied that. Perhaps you`re reading too much into my posts. Remember `verification` and `validation`?

Several ahadith contradict each other … as well as contradicting Quran.

Hence, the process of verification and validation was developed with consensus and is now required to assess the authenticity. Just because you deem it speculative does not make any difference to anyone or anything.

``You just agreed that human works are prone to errors. But somehow you don’t think this applies to works of ahadith. You continue to contradict yourself.``

Again, you`re making assumptions by reading more into my posts than you should.


``So having a due process in executing an apostate makes it alright? ``

What else is a due process to achieve then? Would you rather be executed summarily?

How about granting a person freedom to practice his faith without fear of getting killed?

You can paint it `barbaric` or any other way you want, as much as we`d love to grant freedom to an apostate, we couldn`t do so because it goes against the overwhelming evidence of Allah`s Command as established by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Your position in baseless and barbaric, and is clearly negated by Quran.``

Quran is examplified in detail by the Authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH). Since there is overwhelming evidence that the he (PBUH) had the apostates executed, it could not be a negation of the Book, since whatever he (PBUH) did, he (PBUH) did it by the Order of Allah.

Still, you`re free to tell the same thing to the Qadhi.

OK, so a Muslim is required to openly to declare his faith. But an apostate should be killed if he openly declares his faith! This is hypocrisy of highest order, negated by Quran, I should add.

An apostate does not ``declare`` his faith, he ``renounces`` it. If you`re actually not trying to spin everything around for the heck of it, then you are an imbecile of the highest order, I must emphasize.

``Your comment that … an apostate ”can love his nation but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family, and friends`` is speculative and unjust. A person has no right to judge a person like this … and to condemn him the way you are doing here.``

You`re entitled to your opinion, however illogical and insipid they may be. Still I must advise you that your current line of reasoning will never do you any favors.

``#649: I have supported my views from Quran. If this seems like confusion to you, it is because you are ignoring what Allah Almighty is saying to you and me.

I’d rather be “confused” than ignore what Quran says. You are free to do as you choose ... as long as it does not violate rights of others. And this is where I have a problem with your Islam.``

You`ve not ``supported`` anything. All you`ve done is to demonstrate the absence of specific words in the Book. In the process you have sidelined the Authentic Ahadith that deflate your argument immediately.

Still you`re welcome to get in the line full of agnostics, atheists, polytheists, disbelievers, unbelievers, and what have you.

Over and out from this board.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

You believe that Islam is the last and most perfect faith, that the Prophet is the last Messenger of God and the Koran is the last and most perfect book of God. I respect your belief and I hope the same respect will also be extended to those who disagree.

Anyhow, here`s a question for you. There is a country which has a Muslim majority population. Should it be run on principles of an Islamic state or not. And should it premit non Muslims to proselytise to non-Muslims? Should it permit a Muslim citizen to repudiate his belief in Islam provided he does not indulge in any criminal activity or pass derogatory remarks about Islam/Prophet/Koran while doing so.

Regards

Re: # 651 by raziab9

``How shall i adress you Syed sahib?!``

As per recommendations in the Quran and Sunnah, Brother is most appropriate.

M`asSalaamah

:-)~~

re #653 by majumdar on December 20, 2006 9:05pm PT

[So, basically Islam is the only true faith and all other faiths/belief systems are false and their adherents deserve to be wiped out. Thanks for clarifying. ]

no, Islam is not the only faith now. This faith is the last and summation of all other faiths. All other faiths become faithS becase people have refused to move on with God`s continuous books/messangers until the last Prpphet Mpbuh --there only was supposed to be one faith.

This is my firm belief.

Adherents of no other `faith` need be wiped out --they simply need to be offered to be wiped cleean and clear on their already existent path. now we`re back to abc.

Syed sahib/Razia ji,

(Because, abandoning a lie - false gods/godesses/atheism - is not `apostasy`, while abandoning the `truth` - the Oneness and Supremacy of Allah, Prophet (PBUH) to be His Last Messenger, and the Quran - is. )

So, basically Islam is the only true faith and all other faiths/belief systems are false and their adherents deserve to be wiped out. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards

raziab9 (#642),

I remain unsure how you come up with “sedition” as a part of apostasy. Yes, we seem to disagree on basic terms here.

And since this keeps coming up … yes, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet to appear.

+++++

ntyed (#645),

On “always” executing traitors

Verification of one’s reformation is a circumstantial issue. Note that I am not ruling out executing a traitor. I am avoiding using absolute statements containing “always” since it completely shuts down other possible alternatives which even Quran keeps open. You seem to be reading too much in my posts.

Works of ullema

Since human works are prone to errors, it is reasonable to use Quran as the main source of guidance. In Quran Allah Almighty addresses “believers” and not only “scholars”.

It is unreasonable for a Muslim to ignore Allah when He addresses him … and to instead look up to “scholars” for guidance.

Jewish scholars also were in agreement to have Jesus crucified. Christian scholars insisted the earth is flat and brutally crushed dissent. Muslim scholars agree that Prophet Issa resides above clouds, in flesh and blood, to this day. I could go on and on …

Khilafaat by 2020?

What has not been accomplished for the past few centuries will get done in next 14 years? Come back when this actually happens! Merely speculating is useless. Ummah also continues to insist on Issa-above-clouds, who will descend any day now. Let’s wait till this really happens … before giving in to baseless optimism.

Pristine form

It is now gone since the Prophet (pbuh) is no longer among us. I am not sure what “notes” you refer to which you “believe” still exist.

Furthermore, there is a difference in “some” notes … and volumes and volumes of ahadith that exist today. “Some notes” existing does not put a stamp of authenticity on volumes and volumes of ahadith.

Your comment about “verification” and “validation” of ahadith is speculative. It paints with too wide a brush. Several ahadith contradict each other … as well as contradicting Quran.

You just agreed that human works are prone to errors. But somehow you don’t think this applies to works of ahadith. You continue to contradict yourself.

Executing apostates

So having a due process in executing an apostate makes it alright? How about granting a person freedom to practice his faith without fear of getting killed? Your position in baseless and barbaric, and is clearly negated by Quran.

OK, so a Muslim is required to openly to declare his faith. But an apostate should be killed if he openly declares his faith! This is hypocrisy of highest order, negated by Quran, I should add.

Your comment that … an apostate ”can love his nation but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family, and friends`` is speculative and unjust. A person has no right to judge a person like this … and to condemn him the way you are doing here.

+++

#649: I have supported my views from Quran. If this seems like confusion to you, it is because you are ignoring what Allah Almighty is saying to you and me.

I’d rather be “confused” than ignore what Quran says. You are free to do as you choose ... as long as it does not violate rights of others. And this is where I have a problem with your Islam.

Re: # 648 by ntsyed

How shall i adress you Syed sahib?!

I`m in safe hands! When i started at chowk I felt I were playing amongst 20-30-year olds.

Re: # 644 by majumdar

ntsyed`s post 645 replies to many of your questions. I`m done with this board, unless we have a new topic to start off :)


RB

Re: # 641 by sattar2

Gill Sahib – 345 yrs
myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford
ntsyed – 6 yrs
Urstruly – still in diapers (btw, I’d be surprised if he’d respond. He usually leaves the board when he can no longer validate his dogma. But then again, he may come back and start ranting against Ahamdis … so all bets are off …)

LOL....considering the others` experience and youth, your confusion is justified.

:-)~~

Re: # 639 by raziab9

``NtSyed, thank you for your positive comment on my age n` my following of religion: But guess what? Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?!``

`Afwun! You`re welcome!

Let`s just say you`re just 4-5 years older than my oldest child.

:-)~~

Re: # 638 by subhashjoshi

``1. The problem is with interpretation of ``seditious``. What may be non-seditious for one, may be seditious for other. For A, a person quietly quitting his religion is not apostate. For B he is. Yet for C, everyone who doesn`t subscribe to a particular faith may be an apostate.``

Hence, the crime is tried by the appropriate authorities viz the (Islamic) judiciary.

``2. Clashes don`t always happen on the basis of religion, and even when they do, most of the times the underlying reasons are different, with religion being a facade.``

Exactly! Religion is most capable of minimizing such opportunities by virtue of the common ideology above everything else. Which then puts the onus on the ideology, which means the ideology has to be flawless to maintain its supremacy. Scholars of comparative religions concur that Islam is the only religion which qualifies as a flawless ideology. This in turn establishes the Islamic system most flawless, hence productive, system on this planet.

``3. We are not talking of communities who are ``at war`` with each other, therefore the example of enemy camp etc doesn`t hold good.``

The differences, though, allow one community or the other to collude with enemies, and weaken the nation from within.

``4. Non-muslims are not lobbying for ``death to apostates`` in countries of their majority, although that could have been easier. And Islamic countries are some of the most strife-torn places around the world in recent times.``

True! The reason for that is not because these non-Muslims are goody two shoes. Like I said, it is because they have established atheistic system of governance. Atheism being a form of apostasy cannot turn around and accuse religious constituents `apostates of apostasy`. The reasons for Muslim countries being strife-torn are many - few internal and mostly external...the latter exploiting and fueling the former.

``5. The scriptures are not valid for today in toto, because although we do the same things, the way we do them, and also our environment, has changed a lot.``

Now that the board is about to be off the front page, perhaps at a later time you`d like to elaborate on how do we do the same things differently in a different environment?

As far as I`m concerned, only the technology has changed and will continue to change. May be you`ll be able to convince me otherwise.

:-)~~

Re: # 635 by majumdar

``So what is the solution for non-Islamic states- to reunite church and state and reduce all those people who follow minority faiths or minority interpretation of majority faith to second class citizenship.``

I guess there`s not much to do for such states without exacerbating the existing resentment between the communities. Post 9/11/2001 USA, UK, France, Holland, Israel, India, and others are examples before our eyes today. Minorities in these countries are being treated as second class citizens (officially and unofficially) as we speak, where majorities are atheistic seculars and minorities are religious/religiously inclined groups. Racial profiling and legislations against certain religious practices are just two examples to cite without starting a whole new boisterous tangent.

Personally I foresee things to get a lot worse before anything good happens. Stay tuned with your eyes and ears open.

:-)~~

Re: # 636 by sattar2

``I would hesitate to use the word “always” when referring to execution for sedition. You are overlooking the possibility of one getting reformed and being forgiven.``

Meaning, one could `promise` not to do it again when caught, and get away with the damage he`s already done; or get a slap on the wrist at best. I wonder what does Ahmedi manifesto say about Ahmedis reverting to Islam?

Considering the nature of the crime it would be a huge risk, since the convicted (per your statement one is convicted of the crime) may continue such an activity covertly and cause more damage. In that case, the state will have to allocate tremendous resources to monitor the individual`s ``reformation``, and still there will be a chance that he can inflict heavy damages to the state on probation. What if he doesn`t reform? No state can take such a huge risk with a person convicted of sedition. However, he can be ostracized, exiled, etc, if he demonstrates sincerity in his promise to ``reform`` himself.

Unfortunately, I never came across your ``answer`` implying that even Ahmedi ulema can be wrong, otherwise I would not have insisted. But thank you for the clarification anyways.

I agree with you that all human work is prone to errors, including ours. Therefore, it would not be wise of me to interpret the Quran on my own. Not without guidance and verification from bona fide authorities on the Book on any and every subject, since these authorities have a significantly expansive knowledge of the Quran due to the amount of time and research they`ve put in to collect it.

Logic dictates that if there are more than one such people with differeing views, then a consensus of these established authorities is to be obtained. People in disagreement should respect that consensus.

Therefore, if your ulema are just as prone to errors, and their interpretation of Quran and authentic ahadith is negated by most of the previous and contemporary authorities on Quran and Sunnah, then my friend you`re more likely to be wrong than anyone else here. I`m sorry, but that`s just the way it is. Because there has to be a standard and a process.

The unfortunate reality of Muslims today is due to the very reason that every Tom, Dick, & Harry is sticking to his guns as far as interpreting Quran and Sunnah is concerned, which has resulted in sectarian strife.

Rest assured, we`re working diligently to remove these differences and bring everyone on to the original platform - Islam. You will be pleasantly surprised to know that US, UK, Israel, India, and other non-Muslim states are actually helping quite generously in this effort. That`s why NIC has predicted in its latest report, titled 2020, that political Islam will transcend national boundaries by the year 2020. In other words, reestablishment of Khilafah. Considering the world events, my estimates see it happening much sooner than that.

”Pristine forms”
Unfortunately, I disagree with you. Not only did the Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them) were able to ask him for clarification as needed and to learn from his examples, they also either jotted down the Prophet`s (PBUH) actions and speech themselves, or had others do it immediately. I believe some of the original notes are still present somewhere. This is verified by the fact that several Companions (may Allah be please with them) wrote down the Quranic verses as the Prophet (PBUH) conveyed to them verbatim; even though only Zaid bin Thabit (ra) was the designated scribe of the Quran by the Prophet (PBUH) himself. In case of oral narrations of the ahadith, there is a criteria (developed by the Companions (ra) and later scholars) to discern the authencity of the narration, which includes, but is not limited to, verification and validation by other reliable sources.

Those notes and narrations by the Companions (ra) served as the primary sources of ``historical documents`` we study today. Otherwise, there could not be a ``biography`` of the Prophet (PBUH) either.

``Any comments on views of Urstruly?``

I concur with him 1000% !

Giving you the benefit of doubt, I think your confusion lies in your misunderstanding of our belief. You seem to have the impression that we wish to execute an apostate the moment he commits it. There`s always a due process. Perhaps your impression is a result of brainwashing most poeple receive via the Western mainstream media presenting Muslims as Arabs of the pre-Muhammad (PBUH) era.

``What about the litmus test? Should a Muslim convert openly declare his faith? Or should he have to hide it?

A person reverting to Ialsm is REQUIRED to declare his/her faith openly, even if he/she is killed for it! In fact, that would be an ideal death (which is inevitable anyway) that he/she joins the highest level of `shuhada` - i.e. he/she is killed for bearing witness to the ultimate truth as soon as his/her sins are wiped off which he/she may have committed prior to reversion. Yasser and Sumayya (ra) come to mind as the earliest examples. Whether one is killed, incarcerated, or allowed to roam free and prosper as a Muslim, his reversion brings more people to revert to the ONLY Truth - Islam.

Why?

Because, abandoning a lie - false gods/godesses/atheism - is not `apostasy`, while abandoning the `truth` - the Oneness and Supremacy of Allah, Prophet (PBUH) to be His Last Messenger, and the Quran - is. Even children have proven it to be the case. Therefore, declaring one`s apostasy incites sedition against Allah and His Messenger (PBUH).

I have already addressed the security aspect of this point earlier, I think in my post to subhashjoshi.

``Can an apostate still love his nation? Or does apostasy necessarily mean he is a traitor to the Muslim-nation where he resides?``

Yes, he can love his nation, but not beyond the superficial things like soil, family and friends.

Again...apostasy is about a person renouncing his previous belief in

a) Oneness and Supremacy of Allah
b) Muhammad (PBUH) as His last Messenger
c) Quran as the Word of Allah, intact in its purest form

If the guy doesn`t believe in one of these, then he doesn`t agree with the other two either. Which means, he no longer subscribes to the system given to us by Allah. Which means, manifestation of this renunciation is rebelling against the system established by the state. Then how can he be anything except a traitor?

I hope it was clear and unambiguous enough.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

(You said you do not beleive in any of the above - I`m not going to go around and mock you )

And although you believe all of the above, I will respect your belief. That I believe is the principle on which every secular society is based.

(is involved in seditious activit(ies).] )

And pray, what is a seditious activity.

(``Shall by punished by human beings``. )

As far as God is concerned, I am sure He will judge both of us by the same yardstick at the right time. And that yardstick will be His own not what we think it is.

(Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?! )

I am 34, if that is of any relevance.

Regards

Re: # 641 by sattar [just for the fun of it]

you said: [myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford ]

That makes you 20 too! Or if it is 20-25 then I can conclude that guys are slow in growing up! I`m telling you, this is a reasonable conclusion.

Ha!
RB

Re: # 641

Sattar2, I really respect all your interacts and we have had decent arguments; but the thing is that we don`t even settle on some basic items --this discards anything further argued. And I have a feeling that I`m also done with this board : )

from now, I refuse to respond to all your posts which bring this fact to my attention:
[On a side note, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet.]



Regards,
RB

raziab (#639),

Your definition of apostasy is one that is convoluted and incorrect. “Apostate” from a Muslim viewpoint is one who leaves Islam. It has nothing to do with sedition.

That is, an apostate may also be a traitor, or he may very well be a patriot. Confusing apostasy with sedition, religion with patriotism is incorrect.

[On a side note, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet. Rather, while suggesting that shariah is now complete, Quran leaves open the door of prophethood. Ahadith on this topic are widely misinterpreted, misunderstood, or ignored … but that’s another discussion]

As for ages, here you go:

Gill Sahib – 345 yrs
myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford
ntsyed – 6 yrs
Urstruly – still in diapers (btw, I’d be surprised if he’d respond. He usually leaves the board when he can no longer validate his dogma. But then again, he may come back and start ranting against Ahamdis … so all bets are off …)

Re: # 638 by subhashjoshi

ntSyed seems to be presenting ideas well, but i`d like to see urstruly`s response to this post too. Where`s he gone?

Re: # 637 by majumdar+sattar2+ntsyed

After all the previous cool posts of mine, all of a sudden I put on an erroneous veil hein!?
:)

I was only looking through history and found how important it is to give right meanings to things and ensure that they are passed on without alterations.

Anyhow, majumdar ji and sattar2 sahib, please note that i corrected my sentence which you are very concerned about. The meaning stands corrected in post 630:

[apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran and, more importantly, is involved in seditious activit(ies).]

You said you do not beleive in any of the above - I`m not going to go around and mock you and tell you or even act upon punishing you; instead, I am sure you can figure your own results with your R&D. This does not mean I`m saying you are inferior :)
Hope this clarifies.

No where in this sentence i mentioned ``Shall by punished by human beings``. I AM aware of the limitations published by Quran. Sattar2, you already know my views by now.

NtSyed, thank you for your positive comment on my age n` my following of religion: But guess what? Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?!


RB

Re: # 618 ntsyed

1. The problem is with interpretation of ``seditious``. What may be non-seditious for one, may be seditious for other. For A, a person quietly quitting his religion is not apostate. For B he is. Yet for C, everyone who doesn`t subscribe to a particular faith may be an apostate.

2. Clashes don`t always happen on the basis of religion, and even when they do, most of the times the underlying reasons are different, with religion being a facade.

3. We are not talking of communities who are ``at war`` with each other, therefore the example of enemy camp etc doesn`t hold good.

4. Non-muslims are not lobbying for ``death to apostates`` in countries of their majority, although that could have been easier. And Islamic countries are some of the most strife-torn places around the world in recent times.

5. The scriptures are not valid for today in toto, because although we do the same things, the way we do them, and also our environment, has changed a lot.

raziab (#625):

[majumdar, this also addresses issues you raised in #633 ...]

Your views seem to be speculative and incorrect. You are attempting to justify punishing others for not accepting Islam. This is a grossly erroneous view.

Look, I too am a Muslim. At the same time I realize and accept the limitations on my role as prescribed by Quran and the Holy Prophet (pbuh). A Muslim should only invite others to Islam in a pleasant, amicable manner and let people decide on their own. Forcing one’s faith on others is a position clearly negated in Islam.

My comments are intended to make you view this issue from different angles before forming opinions. Hopefully we can avoid a protracted debate over this.

ntsyed (#632),

I would hesitate to use the word “always” when referring to execution for sedition. You are overlooking the possibility of one getting reformed and being forgiven.

I thought I had already answered your question, but I’ll clarify again. Any aalim can be wrong, whether he is an Ahmadi-Muslim, or not. And that’s exactly my point! Human works are prone to errors and hence a Muslim should refer to Quran as the main source of guidance. I have advocated this all along and referred to Quran on dealing with apostates, blasphemers, etc. I hope this is now clear. I have highlighted Quranic views on these topics in post #540.

+++

”Pristine forms” were witnessed by those who were present in the company of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). These people were able to ask him for clarification as needed and to learn from his examples.

That pristine form is now long gone. Dear Prophet (pbuh) no longer lives among us. What we are left with are historical records, ahadith, etc. A Muslim should strive to learn from these sources and make an effort to walk in the footsteps of the dear Prophet(pbuh). This is instructed in Quran … and is consistent with my view as well. No arguments there.

At the same time a believer must make an effort to separate truth from interpolations/fabrications. Several recorded ahadith contradict others, while contradicting teachings of Quran. One needs to steer clear of such recorded ahadith and use discretion.

Then there are recorded ahadith that are supported by teachings of Quran, volumes of other ahadith, as well as human reasoning. These ahadith are likely to be authentic and a believer should thus learn from such ahadith.

Now my turn to ask questions (#622):

- Any comments on views of Urstruly?

- What about the litmus test? Should a Muslim convert openly declare his faith? Or should he have to hide it?

- Can an apostate still love his nation? Or does apostasy necessarily mean he is a traitor to the Muslim-nation where he resides?

I too would appreciate straight, unambiguous answers.

Syed sahib,

So what is the solution for non-Islamic states- to reunite church and state and reduce all those people who follow minority faiths or minority interpretation of majority faith to second class citizenship.

Regards

Re: # 620 by subhashjoshi

``Syed saheb, ...I think you haven`t replied to how you will convert people etc.``

The answer lies in:

``The dilemma for the non-Islamic (not just non-Muslim) states is due to their own foolishness of adopting the flawed philosophy of `separation of church and state`, whereby the majorities are disintegrating and are being replaced by other forms/groups. As a result, communal violence in these countries has only grown in one form or another. ...Please just look around for examples.`` [ntsyed #618]

I think you`re intelligent enough to figure out the rest, but do let me know if you require further elaboration.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

(While apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran )

Which effectively means that people like me ought to be murdered as I neither accept the Prophet as the last nor do I accept the Quran as the last book. And worship idols. Right?

Regards

Re: # 622 by sattar2

``You are suggesting that an apostate should be killed if he manifests his apostasy, since such behavior amounts to sedition. This is an unjust, hypocritical view``.

Wrong again!

Sedition is always punishable by death; remember McVeigh, Koresh, etc. of the US of A - country claimed to be champion of `freedom` and `human rights`?

Chanda, first of all you need to answer the main question I`ve put to you:

``- if, by virtue of being a human, our ulema can be wrong, doesn`t the same apply to your ulema that your ulema are just as liable to be wrong as anyone else?``

Only after you`ve answered the previous question, do answer the ones below:

- What do you claim the ``pristine form of what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) did, or spoke, or implied, or discouraged`` were?

- How do you know the ``form`` if they are ``lost and gone forever``?

Answer the three in unambiguous terms, and then we`ll move on. Otherwise, we`ll remain on separate pages which makes the entire discussion pointless.

:-)~~

Re: # 623 by raziab9

razia,

My mistake, I thought by obligations you meant practiciing salaat, saum, zakat, hajj, purdah, and adhering to halal and haram in daily life, etc. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

As far as inviting others to these basics of Islam, masha Allah at your age you`re doing better than a lot of Muslim men and women, older than you. Certainly a lot better than I am.

:-)~~

Re: # 629 by majumdar

I said: [While apostasy is punishing one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran]

I realize it was important to complete the above sentence like this (And this is proly why you ask this question:)):

While apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran and, more importantly, is involved in seditious activit(ies).

Thus, there only is 1 apostasy policy, really. The next step and the problem is recognition and treatment of this fact.

Definition could partially be understood from ntsyed’s post 618 too

Oops! Have I started a whole new issue?!?
RB

Razia ji,

Who is an apostate? How do you define a non-threatening or a threatening apostate?

Regards

Last sentence should read as …

If a recorded hadith suggests that this is what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did, authenticity of such ahadith should be challenged by a Muslim … as it suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself violated Quran.

ntsyed (#618), raziab (#626),

Some comments …

+++

`` …What is important to understand is that denunciation of faith is not being punished here. It`s the seditious activity that is punishable by death. If one is a non-believer to begin with, then he must respect the predominant religion, lest clashes between communities are incited…”

Each religion should be respected, whether predominant or not. However, each person has the right to preach his faith to others …without being condemned as a traitor.

One example I can cite is that of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who openly preached message of Islam to others. He did not disrespect faiths of others, nor did he participate in sedition. He was well within his right to preach Islam to others in a peaceful manner.

It is hypocritical of ummah to now deny the same right to followers of other faiths. Islam grants everyone freedom to peacefully practice his faith. Let’s not confuse religion with patriotism, apostasy with sedition.

+++

”… For the same reason, neither can the people of majority religion force the members of minorities to convert. As far as I understand, this is perhaps the primary wisdom behind Allah`s command that no one should be forced to accept Islam … “

One should not be forced to accept Islam, and neither should one be forced to remain in folds of Islam.

+++

”… Same is true for Muslims in the non-Muslim nations, that they respect the predominant religion and practice their own religion to the extent which doesn`t clash with the majority ...``

If a person residing in a non-Muslim nation accepts Islam, he should be allowed to freely declare and preach his faith to others. Similarly, a Muslim residing in a Muslim state should be allowed to leave Islam and preach his new faith to others.

+++

I am a Muslim with firm faith Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It is critical for believers to not become overzealous where they lose sight of what is just and fair.

A Muslim should abide by limits set by Allah Almighty and not transgress. In several places Quran warns believers against transgression, so one must be mindful.

In post #540 I showed Quranic verses that set limits on what believers can/should do when dealing with apostates and blasphemers. Overstepping these boundaries is violation of limits set by Allah Almighty. If a hadith suggests that this is what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did, such hadith should be challenged by a Muslim … as it suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself violated Quran.

Re: # 620 by suhashijoshi

I was being sarcastic by saying that a surpise is coming. Rather, this was something out of common sense after so many interacts had taken place:

This is what nysyed replied with that I didn`t want to spend time typing and explaining for you:

``What is important to understand is that denunciation of faith is not being punished here. It`s the seditious activity that is punishable by death. If one is a non-believer to begin with, then he must respect the predominant religion, lest clashes between communities are incited. For the same reason, neither can the people of majority religion force the members of minorities to convert. As far as I understand, this is perhaps the primary wisdom behind Allah`s command that no one should be forced to accept Islam. Same is true for Muslims in the non-Muslim nations, that they respect the predominant religion and practice their own religion to the extent which doesn`t clash with the majority.``

That`s all!


Life is full of surprises! Even chowk is!
RB

Subhashjoshi asked: ``For example, if other religions have the same policy towards apostates, then how are you going to get converts to Islam? ``.

Islam was not a seperate entity from Christians/Jews. Things were to move on and a religion declared (Islam). People stuck in time with specific beliefs who refused to move on to accept the last book and prophet M pbuh were named/called Christian/Jews. And we are all aware that Christian/Jew scriptures have had changes made to them. Now, the policy of apostasy was to punish the practising-apostate. It was to punish the one who refuses to believe in God, his prophet(s), books, statements and instead preaches the opposit or wrong. Christian/Jew meaning of apostasy obviously altered to say `that the pratising-convert to islam/christian/jew is to be punished` while apostasy is really punishing one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran.

Thus, there only is 1 apostasy policy, really. The next step and the problem is recognition and treatment of this fact.

This problem HAD to be there in God` game!

RB


``Tum ik gorakh dhanda ho``

Re: # 617 by majumdar

My opinions wouldn`t differ while living in both the countries.

In my opinion killing non-threatening apostates should be eradicated. My post 548 has more details.

PS. So you have finally enrolled in the thread : ) welcome

Re: # 619 nysyed :D

Freely conceiding, i am 20. I`m sure anyone could ask the question you asked and even I have questioned myself against this belief (no no, not upon your reply)

However, I do not feel ready for such obligations because despite the opnions I carry, I need a stronger R&D and knowledge of religion: which i do not carry yet --that does not mean I do not wish to or atleast try to :)

Islam has some basic requirements which I strive to fullfil; This does not make me knowledgeable enough to invite others towards it [And I`m not implying that only scholars shal invite]. I`m not sure if everyone is capable of doing so. But, i certainly can be a part of such group who does. I was not raised as by a religiously practising one nor I live in a Muslim country. This passing on thing is not as simple as ``know and tell``, and I hope you agree!

ntsyed (#604):

You are suggesting that an apostate should be killed if he manifests his apostasy, since such behavior amounts to sedition. This is an unjust, hypocritical view.

Freedom of religion

A person should have the right to openly declare his religion, and to preach his religion to others without fear of persecution. For example, if a Muslim leaves Islam and becomes a Christian, he should not have to hide his faith from others, he should not fear attending Sunday church services, and he should not fear preaching Christianity to others.

Allowing him such freedom is completely consistent with message of Quran and Islam as well as collective human sense of fairness. Quran tells us that there is no compulsion in matters of faith, without giving a person any right to punish others for apostasy.

Here’s a litmus test …

Let’s turn the tables around: If a Christian leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim, would it be fair to demand that he hide his religion from others and not preach Islam to anyone? Would it be fair to kill him if he openly declares his conversion.

Let your response here be a litmus test of your convictions.

Religion vs. patriotism

Equating religious activities of an apostate with rebellion and sedition is unfair. This person may still be a law-abiding citizen who loves his country and is willing to make great sacrifices for it. Consigning him to death chambers for openly practising his religion is injustice of very high order.

Sedition and rebellion

If a person engages in sedition, anti-state activities … he should be severely punished … regardless of his faith. He may be an apostate, an accountant, or a devout Muslim for that matter. A man’s faith and his devotion to his country are two different things … and one should not be confused with the other.

+++

Compare this with the view of Urstruly that I disagree with. In #591 he seems to be distancing himself from what he wrote earlier (see link below). His position remains somewhat unclear …

Click [Reply #59]

Role of Ahadith

As a Muslim I fully support deriving guidance from sunnah and ahadith of Holy Prophet (pbuh). But let’s first separate ``ahadith`` from ``recorded ahadith``.

Pristine form of what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) did, or spoke, or implied, or discouraged are lost and gone forever from the annals of time. What we have with us are narrations and records of what he (pbuh) did, said, implied, etc. These narrations were passed over generations over decades and centuries, before being recorded.

Such a process of recording history by no means is an error-free process. Despite best intentions, it is difficult (almost impossible?) for a human to exactly, completely capture details of what transpired and convey these details to others over generations without errors. It should thus not surprise anyone if some ahadith do not accurately represent truth of the matter.

As a Muslim my view is that if a hadith contradicts teachings of Quran, such a hadith cannot be trusted. A Muslim should use Quran as a source of guidance and not recorded ahadith which are prone to human error. If a hadith is consistent with message of Quran and human reasoning, and is further corroborated by historical records, it may be declared an authentic hadith, and a Muslim should certainly seek guidance from such hadith.

Extraneous issues

Your comments about Mirza Sahib are speculative, incorrect, and irrelevant … so I’ll ignore them. We can discuss them at a later, appropriate time.

Re: # 620

Correction : Refer 619 by ntsyed. Looks like you got a bigger surprise...etc.

G`night.

Re: # 616 raziab9

Yes it IS a surprise...I didn`t anticipate such a long post (#616). But was that what you had in mind?

---

Re: # 618 ntsyed

Syed saheb, I`ll read this post tomorrow, fursat mein. Abhi waqt nahin hai. But glancing cursorily, I think you haven`t replied to how you will convert people etc.

---

Re: # 616 raziab9

Refer 618 by ntsyed. Looks like you got a bigger surprise. But, surprise again, I agree with ntsyed here, if only partially. What`s that hackneyed line, time and tide.....?

---

Good night, all.

Re: # 615 by raziab9

``Having said that, one could apply that religion without practise is no religion: However, I do not feel ready for any religious obligations right now --at least at this age :)``

With all due respect, razia, what do you think is a good age for fulfilling one`s religious obligations?

And how can one be certain that s/he is going to reach that `age`?

What you`ve stated is similar to one saying s/he will do all the work at the office on the last day of the month, and justify the paycheck for the entire month.

What if s/he doesn`t reach that magical age, and has not fulfilled his/her obligations? Will s/he be able to justify the paycheck at the end of the month...meaning, will s/he be ready for the accountibility on the Day of Judgement?

Death is inevitable, but no one knows the time, place, or the method it claims each of us. So, make the best of the time you have right now, to earn what you desire in this world as well as the hereafter.

No need to answer if you don`t want to. This is for you to think about very seriously.

:-)~~

Re: # 613 by subhashjoshi

Re: # 613 by subhashjoshi

If you look closely, almost all the countries have their laws based in the predominant religion of the population....even in the so-called ``secular`` countries. These laws are made with the minorities taken into account as to the extent of their practice without compromising the peace in the community at large. I`m sure you can think of many examples.

What is important to understand is that denunciation of faith is not being punished here. It`s the seditious activity that is punishable by death. If one is a non-believer to begin with, then he must respect the predominant religion, lest clashes between communities are incited. For the same reason, neither can the people of majority religion force the members of minorities to convert. As far as I understand, this is perhaps the primary wisdom behind Allah`s command that no one should be forced to accept Islam. Same is true for Muslims in the non-Muslim nations, that they respect the predominant religion and practice their own religion to the extent which doesn`t clash with the majority.

However, when a Muslim becomes a non-Muslim, because of his deeper association with Muslims, as compared to a non-Muslim, he is going to cause significant friction in the community. Therefore, it`s better to execute the source (if he threatens the community) than to let several perish in the ensuing clashes.

Another aspect may explain the concept even better. I`m sure you`re aware that it`s not difficult for spies to obtain all kinds of identification documents to live amongst the enemies and carry out their clandestine activities quietly. Then upon completion of their tasks, they go back to their countries. Therefore, one could easily assume the new religion, do his thing to create chaos in this community, then revert to his previous religion with impuity.

Similarly, one of your own could become an agent for the enemy. Why do you think the ``defectors`` seek ``asylum`` in mostly enemy countries, and claim fear of being killed in their home countries?

One could also become a double agent to inflict damage to both sides and walk away with his pockets filled.

In short, the law not only prevents such subversive activities by the enemy, it also restricts one`s own from changing loyalties, as well as the minimizes the threat of double agents and the third parties to incite wars. That`s probably why, specifically in Islam it is required of one to announce his acceptance of Islam aloud in front of the people. At the same, it helps a person genuinely reverting to Islam to be known to the Muslim community and receive moral and other sorts of support.

The dilemma for the non-Islamic (not just non-Muslim) states is due to their own foolishness of adopting the flawed philosophy of `separation of church and state`, whereby the majorities are disintegrating and are being replaced by other forms/groups. As a result, communal violence in these countries has only grown in one form or another. And that is perhaps why the non-Muslims are lobbying hard for this law to be eradicated from the few Islamic countries where it is a law and communal violence there is comparatively lower if not nonexistent. Please just look around for examples.

The bottom line is, as Allah says in the Quran, indeed killing is bad, but mischief is even worse...and mischief here does not mean kid`s play. Hence, it`s better to kill a mischievous individual than to allow deaths of several innocent people and longterm strife whilst we think about ``what to do with those who advocate killing of apostates for whatever reason.``

All scriptures, at least the Abrahamic ones, allow changes as the time progresses. However, the basic overriding principles and limits cannot be changed, lest the interdependant elements of the society, namely social values, judiciary, economy, education, foreign policy, and even military capabilities, are compromised. Changes in one almost always affects one or more of the rest, and set off a domino effect if these changes are made without due consideration of the others.

Secondly, if you study the religions, specifically Islam, the Quran primarily addresses behaviors. Now, human behavior hasn`t changed since his creation. We still eat, sleep, procreate, love, hate, greed, fight, lust, and so forth as man thousands of years ago. People today are just as tempted and enticed by wealth, material, sexuality, and power as they did back then. And there`s no sign of any of these changing in future, ever. Then, why should there be a need to change the scripture, especially the one which addresses our behaviors so succinctly?

The only thing that needs to change is for us to recognize our strengths, weaknesses, and limitations and abandon complacency about our self-proclaimed `wisdom`. It is imperative in order to establish peace. We`ve been fooled many a times by men of power and influence, except for the prophets (peace be upon them) who were empowered and made influential by Allah.

That`s why reverting to Quran is imperative, not only for Muslims but also for the non-Muslims.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

Re: #615

I am not sure I have understood you correctly. Are you suggesting that as a you live in a Muslim minority country you would not try to convert non-Muslims or kill those who perform apostasy or refuse to accept Islam.

What if you were living in a Muslim majority country. Would you want that country to impose death penalty for apostasy/blasphemy etc.

Regards

Re: # 613 by subhashjoshi

I see quiet an answer comin from NtSyed! Plus i know what it is but I`m not going to ruin the surprise!

Happy surprpise : D
RB

Re: # 610 by mjumdar

Thank you for the creative question :)

I do realize that we live in a world where multiple perspectives are required to look through to solve problems

You said: [Is it right to kill or otherwise punish a human being who refuses to believe in God or believes in a God diff from yours or a multiplicity of Gods or who having once been a believer ( In Islam or any other religion) choses subsequently to refuse to believe?]

I am a Muslim and have Ahmadi+Christian [I do not know many Jews] friends who have eventually become our family friends; which obviously means that eventhough there might be religious, obligatory and ``logical`` reasons to invite them to Islam, i simply do not, for it will be the cauze of my aleination. Not many people openly listen or want to understand any other religions at this point --thus, trying my best would only revert back for worse results. Religious fights n` movements have become political and I have no keen interest in either one.

Having said that, one could apply that religion without practise is no religion: However, I do not feel ready for any religious obligations right now --at least at this age :)


To clarify the ``Not many people`` i wrote above: the category excludes Scholars

Re: # 609 by subhashjoshi

Oh dear! I only wrote the word ``argument`` didn`t just mean arguments. It included suggestions, comments, questions, concerns and arguments :)

Anyhow, you`re welcome once again.

Re: # 611 ntsyed

Syed saheb, if one is take guidance from scriptures only, then what the law of a country is for? Also, different people may have different scriptures with clashing interests, so where is the guarantee of peace? For example, if other religions have the same policy towards apostates, then how are you going to get converts to Islam? And thirdly, how do the scriptures account for changes in the world during these many hundreds of years?


BTW, it is my firm belief that there shall not be any sanction for killing any person for holding or propagating a view different from that of others, scriptures or no scriptures. For me the issue of argument is not what to do with apostates, but what to do with those who advocate killing of apostates for whatever reason.


Regarding that silly pissing match we had on this board earlier, well, let`s put that behind us now. Some measure of mutual respect will do us all a lot of good.

Re: # 606 by kaalchakra

Thank you, kaal ... it means a lot !!!

References to Mirza Ahmed is just as critical here as the reference to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), because of former`s misrepresentation of the latter as the last and final Prophet of Allah. This misrepsentation is one of the forms of ``apostasy``, which is the subject at hand.

:-)~~

Re: # 603 by subhashjoshi

``Isn`t it possible to decide what is good or bad for us in this day and time, without quoting copiously from scriptures?``

I wish that was possible. But man has failed himself repeatedly throughout his history by disrespecting his limits as a `human being`.

The reason you and I got off on the wrong foot on this board or elsewhere was due to our shortcomings, primarily the inability to know exactly what is in each other`s hearts and minds.

You have your experiences and I have mine. Neither of us can ever think alike irrespective of the amount of compromises we make. Therefore there has to be a standard set between us for us to maintain peace in spite of our differences. Furthermore, it is imperative for this standard to be from a neutral third party. It is even more important for the entire tribes and nations.

Divine scriptures play this role as the yard stick. If you read any of the scriptures, these include historical events, the contemporary issues, as well as some predictions for the future. Such composition serves mnay purposes, but the one pertinent to our discussion is that it helps us learn from the past to prevent the problems in future.

Without these we can only witness the clowning around in the parliaments, assemblies, senates, etc., because everyone is sticking to his/her guns, causing legislations to drag on for ever if due process is followed. I can silence you in a debate with my arguments, but I can never cause your inclination towards my point of view if you`re not willing to do so....and vice versa.

In short, we only speak based on our limited experiences and observations, that`s why sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree. Divine scriptures, on the other hand, offer a much bigger perspective.

I hope it makes sense.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

(Aw, common in --if you read the 300 recent posts, you`ll have a pretty good idea of what was going on. However, if it starts to sound boring, you may leave. PS. this is not an invitation to Islam!)

Well actually my interest in religion, my own or otherwise, is very limited. But I would be interested in knowing your views (mind you your own views and not ur interpretation of the views of the Koran/Bible/Gita/Torah etc.) on this.

Is it right to kill or otherwise punish a human being who refuses to believe in God or believes in a God diff from yours or a multiplicity of Gods or who having once been a believer ( In Islam or any other religion) choses subsequently to refuse to believe?

Regards

Arguments about whether or not it is right to kill an apostate? Do you think it calls for arguments?

Re: # 603 by subhashjoshi


Dear subhashjoshi, If you don`t happen to follow any scriptures then it is not anyone`s fault. If you have any arguments to what was been discussed, you are very very welcomed.

Re: # 606 by kaalchakra

This is what urstruly has been implying as well. Glad one more appreciates :)

re: ntsyed # 604

A very good post (except for any references to Mirza Ahmed, about whom Sattar knows much better).

A lot of people simply don`t get this point of view. Unfortunately for them, their not getting it doesn`t mean that it doesn`t represent a firm belief of and powerful motivator for others.

Re: # 583 by sattar2

It means the same thing, only if you had the brains to figure it out.

``manifestataion`` of apostasy means one has declared it. Naturally one does not do so to get killed. Declaration of apostasy instigates sedition in the community, and sedition is punishable by death.

On the other hand, if one is quiet about his apostasy, then he cannot be put to death as there is no evidence of instigating sedition.

Don`t flatter yourself that you`ll have the privilege to `deal` with the winner. You are a NOBODY on this matter.

:-)~~

Re: # 581 by sattar2

I never said it`s ``ok`` to kill apostates. I said if an apostate manifests his apostasy, he MUST be killed. I say so, because that is the position of our Prophet (PBUH). He (PBUH) made this decision by the power vested in him by Allah (SWT). It makes perfect sense to mete out such punishment for seditious activities. Manifesting one`s apostasy by default becomes sedition and disrupts peace in the society. One is free to abandon Islam quietly, and in such an instance the state cannot punish him. But if an apostates engages in spreading his apostasy, it is to be considered sedition, and MUST be treated as traitorous activity, and MUST be punished by death.

Mirza Ahmed`s declaration of prophethood was not only blasphemy [for denying that the Prophet (PBUH) was not the last prophet of Allah], it was apostasy. Even then, only the law was passed but not carried out. His ridiculing Isa (PBUH)`s ascent to heavens and expected return to earth is yet another blasphemy, because that is an established prophecy of the Prophet (PBUH) validated by many Sahih Ahadith, and Mirza denied it to justify his prophethood. This is not a separate discussion.

You cannot sit there and tell me that all Mirzais are innocent bunch. I know some who are innocent and harmless, and I know of some who are actively engaged in making life difficult for Muslims by virtue of their high positions in the Pakistan Armed Forces. The former receive my compassion just as anyone else, but the latter only deserves capital punishment.

You claim to stick to the Quran, while in complete disregard for the Sunnah, even though the 40 verses throughout the Quran instruct, advise, and encourage the believers to obey the Prophet (PBUH) in every matter just as they obey Allah.

Why does Allah repeat this instruction 40 times, when saying it once is enough?

What is the point of such an instruction when every Tom, Dick, and Harry like you and I is to interpret the Quran on our own?

What is the point of the second part of the Kalima (I bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger) if nobodies like you and I can flout his decisions at will to support our arguments?

Just because you do not agree with all the companions of the Prophet (May Allah be pleased with them), exegetes, and scholars who devoted their entire lives to Islam, does not make any difference to any one. Anything that anyone say is NOT ``ir-@#%$#@$-relevant`` just because it doesn`t suit your argument.

Why did you avoid to address the point that you and/or your ``ulema`` could be just as wrong in your and/or their interpretation of the Quran as Ibn Katheer?

I know you will refrain to address this point, because that pulls the earth from underneath your feet. Your whole argument will fall flat if you conceded this much.

The bottom line is that you are a belligerent fool....who`s got his foot stuck in the railroad tracks by his own foolishness...and is now blaming everyone else for the train when its about to make mince meat out of him.

Re: # various

Isn`t it possible to decide what is good or bad for us in this day and time, without quoting copiously from scriptures?

Re: # 599

[Deuteronomy 25:5-6 states that if the wife of a person dies, and has no child, the deceased’s brothers have the right to go in unto her.]

What does it mean, Sattar saheb? What are the dead woman`s brothers supposed to do?

Re: # 598

Yes, that`s a whole another issue which i wish to let alone. To add, I wish to live peacefully with my Ahmadi friends and anyone else back in Pakistan --too many other issues to resolve first :)


Lovv,
RB