Swearing-in Ceremony with Hand on the Bible?

Re: # 154

Bj:

You should support the movement to bring Farzana back to chowk..... I will finanace this movement.

Anil

Re: # 149

Stuka, my son... you are too much of an engineer.... to break things down to analyze first... Life is not that logical...

Anil

#141 by mohar11
Makes sense... only thing to do now is: partition iraq into 3 pieces - Sunnistan, Shiastan and Kurdistan... Kurdistan is relatively stable and oil fields are mostly there... So keep Kurdistan under control and let sunnis and shias duke it out... Win win for all... What say you zeemax?

Interesting you propose this now when I`ve been saying all along that this was always the original plan.

Read the discussion following this post on ``What Went Wrong?`` board:
#13 by zeemax on November 30, 2006 9:58am PT re #6 by parthaab:

[Contrary to popular perception, the Iraq invasion - and Afghanistan - have ALWAYS gone to plan. As far as the neo-con strategy is concerned, Iraq has been an great success.]

This is the correct view and I`ve been saying this for some time. The outcome is as per plan and certainly not unexpected. The aim from the outset was to instigate a civil war and to divide the country into three parts, with the Kirkuk oil fully under control alongwith US allies the Pesh Marga, and the Shia oil in the South ensured through a proxy Shia Govt which is in place right now. This leaves the Sunnis sandwiched in the middle and perhaps US was hoping for them to make a compromise of some sort, which hasn`t happened yet and that`s why Bush is in Jordan. This is the only unforeseen hurdle as of now.

Contrary to the author`s view, which is mostly shared by public opinion, US will never leave Iraq, though it may need to be content with just the Kirkuk Oil and not the South. The turf war now limited to Baghdad will spread to the central/Southern regions and will decide the ultimate map of Iraq. That`s the only part US may withdraw from to save casualties.

Any Indian should be able to see the game being played in Iraq.
A peaceful, democratic and secular struggle for independence in India was turned into a communal war within a short span of time by using communalists in both communities. Communities in E/W Punjab butchered each other at a phenomenal rate in just couple of months. Iraqis still have not reached that level after three years of constant manipulations.

The sectarian violence will have a major impact in the region lasting perhaps many decades. An eerie similarity to the communal violence in India sixty years ago; which still haunts two communities in both India and Pakistan. The real culprits who looted India for over two hundred years left the country looking like saints while the poor Indians/Pakistanis ended up losing their homes, families, properties and lives.

Tested strategy never fails in poor, less educated third world countries. Been there, done that!

One poster on http://forums.bharatrakshak.com/ wrote this:

“LOL! Yes, the famous ``civil-war``!

If the Chinese had occupied the US and immediately after mysterious Catholic and Evangelical/protestant groups popped up in the US slaughtering each other, any one with an iota of commonsense would wonder at things.

Of course, all sorts of Chinese media would point at the ``hundreds-of-years`` of Catholic/Protestant conflict. They`d point at Northern Ireland, the various loonie evangelical groups - large amounts of noise would be made about ``womens freedom`` and lunatics shooting at doctors in pro-choice clinics etc. They would remind everyone how the US was founded by ``fundamentalist puritanical`` groups.

And so it would go.

All of which would convince outsiders that, ``gee-whiz, it`s a good thing the Chinese are there to stop a US religious based civil war``, while the Chinese kept saying how terrible it was that they had to level city after US city and slaughter thousands all of course to ``protect`` US-ites themselves!

(Heck, there would probably even be all sorts of Desi leftie types who would go into bat for the Chinese saying ``yes, yes, our centuries long oppression under the Christian British taught us all about their mad evil ways.

LOL, I can even see that BR would no doubt host threads on the intricacies of Lutherans versus Calvinists and the historical problems we understand better than most because of our centuries of occupation by the Christians!! All we`d need would be an Iranian, or maybe Vietnamese version, of Johann and an Chinese version of TSJ - JYang perhaps? “

Re: # 164

Any conflict in the United States might be more likely along ethnic, than religious lines. Would nt you agree?

That is why the racial issue has always been in the news in the US. Only recently, has the religion monster started to raise its head too.

Re: # 33

``That means the west is going to isolate itself from the Islamic world......``

A reasonably good analysis......until the quoted text above.

After all the West has invested in `globalization`, it is impractical and nearly impossible for the West to isolate itself from anyone, particularly Muslims....but it doesn`t hurt the weak of heart to dream.

Therefore, Muslim immigration to the West will continue in exchange for Western/American businesses in the Muslim countries....for fruits of globalization cannot be left unplucked.

Troop withdrawal from Iraq will remain a fantansy as long as Israel continues to have its way with the jackass called the US Admin.

``no admission of Turkey [in]to EU, literal walls of separation at interface points with Islam like in Palestine, Kashmir, Bosnia etc,`` will exacerbate the anti-Americanism across the globe.....and in the event US retreats into isolation, its victims will then start demanding retribution.

``The only interaction will be over oil which also is going to lose its primal role due to a concerted effort in the west to move away from middle-east dependency on energy.``

Rrrrrrrrrrrrright....Shell, Exxon, Chevron, BP, are dying to let go off the heavy investments they`ve made across MENA. South America alone will not suffice the West. Therefore, alternative energy is required. At the current rate of energy consumption in the West, the alternative energy is scarce. Therefore, just the transition is going to be very painful, to say the least.

``If some muslims are desperate enough to blow up the west, they will do it. The only real hope is if muslims themselves realize the sheer madness of this situation and take actions to change course, starting with cleaning their own house.``

Spoken like hooter!

Muslims have no benefit in blowing up the West if the latter stops meddling in former`s affairs. Muslims realized the Western / anti-Muslim madness of the situation more than everybody else long before the thumb sucking common anti-Muslim people learned the words `Muslim` and `Islam`. Otherwise, CIA could not have predicted:
“In particular, political Islam will have a significant global impact leading to 2020, rallying disparate ethnic and national groups and perhaps even creating an authority that transcends national boundaries.”. In other words a ``Caliphate`` is very likely to be in place by 2020, Insha-Allah which will crush the concept of nation-states.

The simplest prevention for such a scenario is for the West / anti-Islam groups to get their act together....but the current complacency of military might suggests it`s very unlikely.

#34 by VRV
``Do u hear the Ummahites demanding in similar tones abt the rights of non-Musoim minorities (non-Ahmadi types) in Muslim majority countries?``

Just like a Muslim relinquishes his rights as ``equal`` and becomes a minority, to be deplaned, incarcerated, and labelled as terrorist without a justifiable rhyme or reason, when he enters the non-Muslim countries, the non-Muslims residing in predominantly Muslim countries should not have a problem accepting their minority status.

The phenonmenon is very simple to understand:
The Americans hold their Constitution sacred and above everything else. If you did not subscribe to it, then you become a minority. And such a minority does not deserve the same status as the one who holds the Constitution sacred, and often he is deported.

Similarly, for Muslims Allah and the system He has given to the humanity is above everything else. If you do not susbcribe to it, then in fact you`re in comptempt of the sacredness. And such a minority does not deserve the same status. Still, the Muslims do allow such minorities to reside in predominantly Muslim areas, of course with the understanding that they will not engage in sedition against Allah and try to distort His Message in order to cause mischief in the community.

Just like the Americans say: ``Love it or leave it``, Muslims also have the right to say: ``live in peace or leave it``.

:-)~~

#142 by stuka on December 6, 2006 2:05pm PT

``Your whole post does not address the issue that it is Muslims killing Muslims for the most part in Iraq.``

Ok so let me address this ... just as soon as someone answers my repeated question why it was not happening before the invasion. Do you want to hazard an answer?

``Americans killed a few thousand Iraq troops at the onset of the war and then kill a few here and there during counter-insuregency.``

It wasn`t a few thousand and a few here and there. The estimates before the civil war were 150,000 plus.

``Why did Sunnis go after Shias instead of focusing on killing Americans? Now, it is simply Shia taking revenge. The Shia were quite for more than a year..that poor chap Sistani calling for peace every other day..but the Sunni kept killing. Now it`s payback.``

This statement is completely upside down. Sunnis ARE going after americans wherever they can find them outside their fortified bases (ten yesterday). Further, Sunnis never went after Shias at all till the death squads started going after `them` and bodies started turning up in Baghdad (read Al-Hakim of Badr Brigade who was sitting with Bush yesterday), after the Samarra Mosque bombing failed to provoke a reaction from Shias. Therefore your saying ``Now, it is simply Shia taking revenge ..`` is wrong as it is Shias, not Sunnis who are now getting car bombed in Baghdad, mainly in Sadr city.

The pattern goes something like this. There are bodies of Sunnis discovered in Baghdad regularly.. and car bombs go off in Shia districts. It is obvious that organised death squads are doing the kidnappings/killings and Sunni groups are doing the bombings, each to scare away the target population in a turf war, and not for revenge. However, everyone knows the death squads are controlled by Shia leaders in power in collusion with USA (e.g. Al-Hakim), but does anyone know what/who the leadership is on the Sunni side?

The attempt by USA was clearly to form a Shia/Kurd proxy government to the exclusion of Baathists/other groups and to drive them out of Baghdad, which forced these groups to go underground and fight. So it is a turf battle ignited by USA through Shia plus mercenary / contractor death squads, which didn`t go the way US planned. I don`t see any religious rivalry in it at all, which is why the Muqtada Al-Sadr group (which is being bombed the most) has resigned from government as it opposes Shia/US collusion in what`s going on.

Fact is, the US army plus its contractors are now just one of the several militias in Iraq, rather than an occupying power; except that they are the most ignorant of the lot and thus the most vulnerable.

Re: # 38

WOW....what an about face from #37.

bjkumar - #37:
``One does not know whether to be mad at this lot, castigate it, try to reason with it futilely, or simply ignore it. I have tried everything, with the same result – zilch!

These are no “intellectuals” – merely the walking talking brain-dead-heads! And there is nothing personal about such generalization.``

bjkumar - #38:
``It is incorrect to characterize responses as ``meaningless`` simply because the meaning is unclear to you - perhaps on purpose.``

Your vocal chord must be abnormally extended from your throat down to your rectum, which means, for your rectum to excrete waste, waste it is that enters your throat. I hope you get the gist. Still, I`ll put it in plain terms for the intellectually impaired: what you say is not a product of your own mind, but what`s being fed to you by various sources. Otherwise, you could not have committed such gross contradiction...rather hypocrisy.

Apparently taikonaut (#29 & 43) is infected with the same garbage-in-garbage-out virus as you, which he misdiagnoses as Islamist bug.

;-)~~

Re: # 39

yes...one should learn from Kulharee to get over such events....just like his lot got over the death of profit [from the farangi] Mirza Ghulam Ahmed`s passing away in the toilet [most probably by drowning in his own body waste]. You see...now he`s got PhD physicist and biologist in missionary positions in disenfranchised African countries that were until recently European colonies. Hopefully, some hungry beings there will find their message palatable if its wrapped in bread. Whereas Sattar still wakes up sweating in the middle of the night by the nightmares of being beheaded for his apostasy.....LoL....giving a whole new meaning to obsessive compulsiveness

:-)~~

#166 ntsyed

[The Americans hold their Constitution sacred and above everything else. If you did not subscribe to it, then you become a minority. And such a minority does not deserve the same status as the one who holds the Constitution sacred, and often he is deported.]

But the US Constitution can be amended – with input from the population. In that sense, it is a dynamic document and reflects the times we live in.

Re: # 73

Urstruly,

In case you weren`t aware of it, The Zundelsite is good website to see what can be expected from the upcoming conference on holocaust.

:-)~~

When every thing is said and done, GWB’s involvement in the Iraq war – whatever the controversy preceding its decision and whatever the “shortcuts” its proponents took and however messed-up was the “justification” for it – was done for a good cause – to change the mindset of a whole region by setting up a working democratic set-up which could serve as an inspiration to others in the area. It was a unique moment – when a politician showed the ability to rise above politics and make a highly risky decision to help a whole region.

He did everything by the book – he had the support of the US Congress and most of the US public.

And GWB, like virtually all the presidents before him, defers to the super boss – the people of the USA. If the super boss says “get out” – he can merely follow – like any other public servant, whatever his own reservations.

It was a try worth making and was done at considerable cost to the USA, including the loss of a lot of US lives. And the responsibility for the large scale killings of civilians must be pinned where it belongs – on the killers and on the thought process which brings about such killers and their absolute inability to learn a few simple, new, common sense concepts related to tolerance, which the rest of the humanity has moved on to.

To those who are applauding GWB’s “loss” in this effort – I respectfully point out – the true losers are the communities, the cultures, the populations and the faith which these masses of humanities practice.

It is a bit like stopping strong medicine by asking the doctor to leave – doctors will come and go but the disease that is keeping the patient down and perhaps slowly killing him – is still present!

Re: # 84

Exactly...........................NOT!

Besides, it keeps the world`s attention away from the ethnic cleansing of minorities at the hands of hindufascists dreaming of `greater india`.

Isn`t this why you`re getting so emotional about holocaust being placed under microscope.

keep it up. I`m sure the jews will throw another bone at ya

;-)~~

Bjkumar bhai,

(was done for a good cause – to change the mindset of a whole region by setting up a working democratic set-up which could serve as an inspiration to others in the area. )

How about beginning with North Korea? That would have changed the mindset of North East Asia. Had the fact that NK had nukes but no oil and Iraq had oil but no nukes contributed to the fact.

And if fomenting a democratic/secular revolution in the Islamic world was the reason for choice of Iraq, why did St. GWB did not begin with KSA or Egypt or Pakistan?

Regards

#172 by bjkumar

Wah Wah BJ Saheb ... kya baat hai ...

And GWB, like virtually all the presidents before him, defers to the super boss – the people of the USA. If the super boss says “get out” – he can merely follow –

It was only yesterday that Mr. GWB had said he will `stay the course` if the only people left supporting him were his wife and his dog. That doesn`t seem to include the `super boss`.

Or perhaps you weren`t born till today ... !

taikanout #157 no need to be grateful if someone agrees with you, my friend. the important thing is not that people agree, but that what they agree on makes sense. (i believe a bunch of nazi scientists once declared einstein`s theory to be incorrect - and einstein`s reaction was to say that if what they said made sense they would have needed only one man to point that out).

actually it is not just the west, but within pakistan that maulvis are mere pawns in the hands of the military - the people musharraf sees as his real opposition are the mainstream parties, and there he is making sure the leaders are kept out of the country in the forthcoming elections. this way, he positions himself as the progressive who is alleviating the oppression of women from poor families and making peace with india over kashmir, while the opposition is a bunch of clowns. the maulvis, meantime, true to form, who were threatening to resign from the national assembly if the Protection of Women Act was passed, are now stuck between a rock and a hard place as they squabble among themselves on whether to resign (and thus lose the halwa and status of being a national assembly member) or to meekly drop their threat (and thus expose their political weakness).

musharaff is turning out to be the grand puppet master of pakistan, keeping the proven incompetent benazir and the proven dicatator-wannabe nawaz sharif out of the country, while making the bearded politicians jump through hoops. ha! ha!