India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

It appears that the definitive book on partition is yet to be written - there`s quite a few PhDs waiting to be written on how the agitation for pakistan was really a ploy by smarter, braver, richer, fairer, taller, stronger, more handsome, more cultured and cleaner men with bigger penises to get away from the inferior hordes by pretending that it was all about religion.

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Alright everybody - no need to ``debate`` no more.... baghdad bob is here.... and his words, as you know, are always true... :)

Pakis and their f***ing delusions... it never ends... :)

saadmd #283 We can`t be perfect but perfection must be strived for in order to achieve excellence. I know being that tolerant is clearly dreaming too much, but moving in that direction will go a long way towards improving the state of our country.

Well said. I hope this attitude that you bring with you as a new poster to chowk lasts longer than your stay on chowk. I have seen too many well meaning people come to chowk and Gresham`s Law (bad currency drives away the good) take over. I wont say anything more on this and leave it for you to find out for yourself.

Perhaps you will trouble yourself to put your ideas down in the form of an article on chowk since that would certainly contribute to what you would like to see it seems - a healthy, mature, constructive forum for discussion, rather than a convenient means to write insults.

Hamidm,

This is so tragic that on this day of Christmas eve, I am forced to stay home to read this ridiculous debate.

A word for you first abt lake Dal. Believe me Lake Dal is no Lake Saifulmalook. Dal was beautiful and pristine before it was given under Indian control. Everything Indians touch becomes polluted fairly quickly. The reason is simple; Indians as a whole, have no concept of cleanliness and taking care of their homes and streets. Any nation that allows cows and other animals like monkeys to roam their streets and cities freely and have no problem with the animal excrement and piss allover the city, would not care very much about how a small lake is kept. Look at their polluted religious and cultural symbols like Ganga and Jamna and just think that it is an important religious rite to bathe in there for an Indian Brahmin or shudra alike.

Lake Dal has to be owned by Kashmiris again for human from Pakistan to visit it. Btw, Hamidm, I recommend you walk into any Indian home in the US unannounced and you will notice the filth and stench that for a person of your exquisite taste for fine wines, would be enough to puke instantly.

Now about Political side of the Kashmir issue:

As long as Kashmir is Indian and Pakistani Kashmir, this issue is not going anywhere. No matter how many Sikhs and Italians rule India. Kashmir was a live issue in 1948, it was alive in 1965, it has remained so since 1989. As I said, there is nothing in the world that can change Kashmir’s status to undisputed area in the current world.

However, like any other long term disputes, parties continuously change tactics. Though the overall strategy seldom changes. When Pakistan had the element of surprise on its side, they captured almost 35% of Kashmir area but since then Pakistanis have not had much success territory wise. Pakistan still has the ability to do whatever it wants in Kashmir and over the years support from the indigenous Kashmir Population has grown in Pakistan’s favor than it was way back in the 50s.

Kashmir is one good example where it is evident that democracy alone is not enough to change peoples mind about their right of self determination. Indian held Kashmir has mostly been a democratic government but majority of Kashmiris have steadfastedly remained pro-military run-Pakistan and would certainly vote for Pakistan knowing fully well that the democratic institutions they have in Kashmir may not survive their merger with Pakistan. This is a unique situation.

Since 1989, Pakistan has maintained enough pressure on India thru supporting the insurgency that now both countries are forced to rethink their tactics and strategy. Despite the mayhem Pakistani sponsored insurgents have created in Kashmir, Kashmiris have remained riveted to Pakistan side shunning Indians at every step.

Now is the time to set a right trap for India to fall into. The only country that would benefit from opening of Kashmir borders, open trade between the Kashmiris, and free movements of people in Kashmir would be Pakistan and not India. In fact, I think the new approach would bring Pakistani and Kashmiris closer faster and the demand for a free Kashmir or Kashmir joining Pakistan would grow in strength and not diminish.

With this new approach, the India army would have to give up its current positions in Kashmir. It is not always easy to redeploy the army on the borders considering that first the Indians had agreed to a peaceful and free movement of people between the two Kashmir.

The policy of supporting insurgency should now move to the next stage and that would be to support the civilian and pro-Pakistan Kashmiris leaders to take control of the state and that would happen fairly quickly after the borders are open between the two Kashmirs.

So I think there is no need to debate this issue with these nincompoops because action on the ground would prove to be more powerful in the long run.

bj #282 ``you could learn a lot by spending more time reading my principled and tempered responses``

Gee Whiz!! You are indeed a role model for the rest of us, Mr. Temperance Man. :-)

Re: # 293

Hamidm sahib:

Happy holidays to you and the family.

See, you never learned to negotiate from the great Kashmiran leader who in 1971 made Nixon say what he said and Madani sahib quoted.

Why should you not enjoy the profits from the fruits of your labor and grey matter. Who did not, just think about it.

Re: # 288

anil,

``perpetual right to vaction by the Dal Lake`` ........ i knew there was a catch! ....... but no thanks - years ago i made the mistake of buying a time-share condo from a bunch of seedy texans and i am not doing it again ............

......... anyway, merry christmas and have a great new year

#290 it won`t do to make fun of people`s names, mr. BJ (snicker) Kumar!

To bjkumar #287,

contrary to how you`ve put it, I am not insulting my own religion when you quoted the following from my previous post

[Muslims are intolerant, Pakistanis are a bunch of lunatics and that we are a bunch of selfish arrogant egotistical morons.]

You did not read what I had said before, or at least did not include it in the quote, but I said that people like the characters in question would make a neutral, or an outside person, think that this is what we are.

And no, I won`t recommend changing the name of Pakistan. I can only dream of the day when outsiders will actually feel our people justify the tag but as long as there are people like hamidm who obviously don`t give a toss about other people`s lives (as long as it`s not theirs) we are going to have that image. Sad fact in life...very sad. But the name should be there so that other people with some level of compassion and intellect left in them would know what we should be trying to achieve. Even a small change in heart or a movement can create a huge force that only cowards refuse to acknowledge. you only have to look at history from any part of the world and you will see that it`s not that impossible.

#286

Yes, I am mortally afraid of the gray panthers! But I am impressed that you still have $12.50 left after donating all of your material possessions to the Right Honorable Congressman Eatallofus Towns from Brooklyn, New York! He may feel sad to hear that news and also may feel rather helpless that he failed you.

Re: # 288

While at it, I will suggest that you use your influence and make sure Pakistani negotiators get a clause in it that to maintain Indian-Pakistani parity, Anil Kapuria and Hamidm will be on the panel of judges to decide the contest with swiss lakes, and that their votes in favor of Dal Lake will always be required.

Re: # 268

Hamidm sahib:

``....is more beautiful than lake geneva ............. i am curious, but once we get kashmir and don`t like it, ....``

Dal Lake can be more beautiful than Lake Geneva, Lake Nauchatel, Lake Lucerne (I like this more) and Lake Como. Stop terror-tourism and let the real tourism begin. Hamidm sahib, why leave this possibilty open (``but once we get kashmir and don`t like it``), negotiate something else instead, Indian bania out of emotion, may really give a better bargain, including perpetual right to vaction by the Dal Lake, that must organize and participate in annual contest with swiss lakes and win. The year it looses pay penalties, and free vaction to Anil Kapuria and Hamidm sahib`s families.

Anil

#283 by saadmd

Absolutely, I agree with you sir – especially on what you tell us regarding certain seedy chowk characters! It is more than sad – it is downright devastatingly painful! Yet, they call themselves “Men”! Perhaps the term “mice” is more appropriate. And the Indo-Pakistani border was exactly what was needed so the two communities could gaze fondly at each other from across, instead of breathing down each others’ neck as they had been doing for all those centuries – much good it did them! (But why do you think those Hindus were wiped off in the land of the Pure?)

[Muslims are intolerant, Pakistanis are a bunch of lunatics and that we are a bunch of selfish arrogant egotistical morons.]

This sounds rather harsh but I can understand how those certain interactors can provoke you!

[We can`t be perfect but perfection must be strived for in order to achieve excellence.]

Does it mean you recommend changing the name of the “Land of the Pure” or will the rose smell just as before under any other name?

I agree that TOLERANCE on the part of Pakistani Muslims is the key. Perhaps Maulana Masood Azhar should be listening to you. Perhaps the Pakistani khakis, too.

Are you sure you are not I?

Re: # 282

bjkumar,

......... stop insulting older people, or else!!! ............ earlier this year i qualified for membership in the aarp and if you are not careful i might just plunk down the 12.50 to join the most powerful group in the world and sic the millions of senior citizens and their lawyers on you .......... remember, we control 90% of the wealth and all the shuffel board courts in this country !

Re: # 283

Ouch... a timely kick in mullah32`s bu!!... :)

saadmd is right on this: ``the day we become that tolerant to our own Muslim brothers, this problem can solve itself.``... muslims in general and pakis in particular must learn to live peacefully among themselves - only then things will improve for them... whining about kashmir, palestine, whatever ain`t going to make any difference...

Re: # 283

sinyasi baba knows everything

saad mian,

....... i hate to inform you that this forum is primarily meant for hurling bile and insults at people you don`t really know, or care to know - it is equivalent to `kicking the dog` ........ since half the people on this forum are good muslims who do not believe in touching dogs and menstruating women, and the the other half are horrible hindoos who the dogs (and women) won`t have anything to do with, it is the best we can do ......... to be honest we do not have the desire, nor the capability, to resolve major issues like kashmir, male impotency, incontinence, global warming or hemmaroids from which most sub-continentals seem to suffer ....... if you are really serious about solving any of these problems please consult sinyasi baba of gujranwala who has his name plastered all over the walls of houses that line the railroad tracks .....