Is it time to recognize Dalit Muslims and Dalit Christians?

Re: # 65

mohar11

``The point is: spirituality may be a necessity for modern human existence... where as organized religion(cults) is not... ``

An interesting observation it is, but what do you mean by religion without spirituality. In fact the very term `religion` is ambiguous and contradictory in terms. For instance, Islam does not recognize any other post-Islamic religion and terms it as `Kufr`. Other religions are also exclusivist to some extent but not extremist, the tendency which Bush calls `Islamo-faschism`.

What you mean by spirtuality is perhaps `Humanism` as reflected in a Punjabi poet-sage Bulleh Shah`s couplet wherein he says:

``Masjid dhaa de , mandir dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dheindaa
Ik bande da dil nah dhaavein, Rab dillaan wich rehnda``

But since every organized religion creates a powerful vested interest can it allow spirituality or humanism which challenges it to exist. This is the problem we face today in the world turned global village to day.

Re: # 66
Fiji is a really bad example. Indians have lived there for over 150 years and still are told they are not `real` Fijians. An Indian can never become PM of Fiji again under the constitution, which itself is in a state of flux.

Mohar,

As a member of National Secular Scoiety (UK) I can say that secularists wud never oppose u/anybody to worship whichever God u/anybody think fit but u/anybody cant impose ur/anybody`s views on others. Simply put, `live and let live`......as for specifics of gods...it`s one of the contentious subjects in this world.

Pl check pixes of Hubble Telescope: http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/

None of the Books we know, know the true extent of the `known` universe. Science cant be a God but as an expert put it, `it gives little truths abt ourselves....`

Ref Shah2 #59

[......What do you have agains Italy or Sonia ..Dont Indians hold political posts in Fiji and your wish Tambrahmin second generation be accepted as senators congreess a god forbid as predident of USA ..]

Indians of the n-th generation hold political posts in Fiji, Mauritius, Seychelles, Guyana, etc.

Your sister is not going to be able to marry some Italian and ten years later become the Prime Minister-in-waiting in Italy.

That difference perhaps is too difficult for you to comprehend.

But then, you belong to the category of people who ought not be allowed to go out on their own.

Re: # 64

The concept of ``god`` or an higher power, has been there for a long time, in some form or the other... I am not sure when exactly this started...

humans are have a come long way since those days of ``simple`` existence... the human existence now is much more complex, human emotions are much more developed than it used to be... so in time of worst emotional situation, it helps to believe in some sort of higher power, it helps to cope... the mental crutch...

The point is: spirituality may be a necessity for modern human existence... where as organized religion(cults) is not...

Re: # 57 and # 63

There was NO religion before organised religion came into being just 5000 years ago.
The first Vedas do not even mention God.

Now compare this with the thousands and thousands of years that humans have been around. Though there may have been other superstitions, there was nothing about god.

ALL that is needed for religion to dissappear, is for children to be free of brainwashing abuse at an young age.

Re: # 56

Partha,

The forecast abt the growth of this Info Revolution and tapering-off Caste and Religion is most likely a possible scenario in the West. I have doubts abt the same effect in the Orient.

I hate to see the religious gurus (no exceptions, all do that) using the fruits of scientific inventions whilst reviling the advocates of science. Not so long ago these religious gurus called for the execution of the inventors & innovative thinkers.

Btw, I follow latest trends in the fields of science. I dont believe in the `Theory of Everything`. Try this! Can u have a machine that produces everything? Nope! If u have some thoughts pl share with us here so that it wud enrich my understanding of the subject.

#61 shah: virtually all muslims in the panjab fled for their lives in 1947 to pakistan. so i assume you are talking about muslims in UP, bihar etc. is it really true that the ``elite`` muslims in UP, bihar etc. call themselves ``ashrafi``? how long has this ``caste`` system been practiced by these ``muslims``?

btw, by ``elite`` i assume you mean wealthy, which is synonymous with elite only in poor societies where the poor are too busy scratching out a meal to have time to do anything else.

#3 by tahmed32 on December 30, 2006 6:20am PT
Disgraceful - Indian muslims calling themselves Ashraf or Ajlaf`s depending on circumstance of birth.
...............................

Dont blame wrongfullty IndianMuslims....It was the elitiest who wanted Pakistan and called themselves higher caste Ashrafi
the poorer were left behind in india hence cream of Indianmuslims opted for Pakistan .....

Hari what you gonna do??????????

Tension in Tripura hills over mass conversion
Manas Paul
[ 2 Jan, 2007 0010hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


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AGARTALA: Serious discontent is brewing among tribesmen in Tripura following alleged large-scale conversion to Christianity in remote parts of North and West Tripura districts.

Tripura Baptist Christian Union secretary Rana Kumar Debbarma admitted that young tribals had been embracing Christianity in recent time on large scale.

He claimed that more than 250 persons, mostly from Tripuri community, changed their faith in this sub-division alone in December. He also gave the break-up of those converted in each area. In North Tripura district, it was the Jhumia Reangs who converted.

There has also been a sharp rise in the number of churches in this area with as many as 193 coming up in the past few years. Bikramjaypara which once happened to be a communist bastion and a village of Vaishnavite Reangs is now 50% neo-Christian.

A visiting team of reporters found that within last 15 days 110 Reang jhumias had converted in the sub-division.

``And you frikking Northies who now support the Italian b!tch.``

in the past 12 head was banned for fighting and using such vile language unecessarily without grounds......What do you have agains Italy or Sonia ..Dont Indians hold political posts in Fiji and your wish Tambrahmin second generation be accepted as senators congreess a god forbid as predident of USA ..ha ha ha

Re: # 56

There was this episode in ``South Park``, set in distant future when religion has been abolished completely from human society and science has taken over... but people were still fighting bitterly about whose science is better, with all their futuristic weapons...

As long as humans are there, in some form or other religion would be there... religion will go only if we go back to being apes... animals follow no religion... :)

Only thing we have to do is remodel the religion into spirituality... which is what it was originally designed for... most people need a mental crutch, every once in a while...

No comment



http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1980978,00.html

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1980978,00.html

Re: # 52

`` But none of these has any religious sanction in Islam like it is in Hinduism. ``

Without belittling the centuries of cruel and senseless opression the back ward castes have gone through in India, Hinduism has nothing to do with Casteism. That is not the core of the religion, even though one might find some quotes here and there among the vast literature

Rgds,
Avkrishna

Arabian Islam being basically a tribal religion does not recognize any caste-system as in Hinduism. It does, however, recognize divisions in human society which are tribalistically vertical and not horizontal as in Hinduism. The Indian or Hinduized Islam could not avoid taking cognisance of the fact of low-caste Hindus when they converted to Islam and treat them in the same fashion as done by Hindus, but only with regard to their social status. As it is, a Dalit converted to Islam is called a Musalli in Punjab and Khaskheli in Sindh. There are other divisions also in the Muslim society on the basis of profession. But none of these has any religious sanction in Islam like it is in Hinduism. The question of uplifting the down-trodden should, in my view, be dealt with purely as a social and economic issue and not a religious one on the lines being tried under the socialist system.

Re: # 50

I think your are right... that`s why harimau is so inflamed... I understand his frustrations...

Which is why we should move beyond the finger-pointing... it`s a whole new world out there, a world which is favorably inclined to our core strengths... so why waste energy in useless bantering and blame game?...

Past is past - the future is here.... some even have coined terms like ``Indian Century`` or ``Asian Century``... who knows where it can go if we can just forget this caste sh!t for once in our history...

LOL

OK, mohar, let`s see what you think of this theory :)

IMHO, in all this debate, tambrahms do tend to get a bit more of the rough end of the stick (not compared to other castes in Tamilnadu, but compared to others in the rest of India - including brahmins) than they actually should...and have received less credit than is their due.

Re: # 48

I didn`t say it was tambrahms - I have utmost respect for tam brahms who I have come in contact with...

And you are right - it was us ``northies`` who did the damage... but nevertheless, it was the upper-caste/class (northies, as they may be) which did the damage - not the lower-castes....

But that`s past.... lessons have been learnt, even though some old fuddies will never learn... most people understand what needs to be done and hopeful about the future.... going forward - we have a real chance to get out of this self-made abyss... upper-caste/lower caste verybody needs to pull forward... instead of getting bogged down in futile finger-pointing....

Ref mohar11 #47

[arrival of mayawait/laloo would NOT help the situation - but they are marginal to the condition india finds in today.... india`s pathetic condition today is primarily because of the failure of the dominating section of upper caste/upper class first-rate minds who failed spectacularly to take the country forward...]

It is the stupidity of the Nehru-Indira Gandhi dynasty that was responsible for the socialist crap. In fact, Nehru was forced to hire Shanmugham Chetty as the Finance Minister to retain the trust of the business community. After that came TTK, a Tamil Iyengar who was also pro-business.

Rajaji, another Tamil Iyengar, founded the Swatantra Party on the explicit platform of free enterprise.

Nope, it was not the intelligent TamBrahms who failed India. It is the dumb-shit Kashmiri half-Muslim-half-Pandit Bandit Nehru.

And you frikking Northies who now support the Italian b!tch.

Re: # 46

Not really... Mayawati/Laloo came on the scene only recently.... even then they have limited control on the overal federal policies...

On the otherhand - for first 40 crucial years of the republic, it was the upper caste elite who was in control... and look at what that led to - 3 percent hindu rate of growth, widespread poverty and destitution... Arrival of mayawait/laloo actually was a reaction to the failed policies foisted on india by upper caste ``first-rate`` minds... these first-rate minds delivered double-whammies on india - on one hand, they kept india poor based on their scewed socialistic theories and at the same time trumpeted india`s poverty all around the world - thus reducing the country a pariah both within and without....

arrival of mayawait/laloo would NOT help the situation - but they are marginal to the condition india finds in today.... india`s pathetic condition today is primarily because of the failure of the dominating section of upper caste/upper class first-rate minds who failed spectacularly to take the country forward...

Ref Shah2 #42

[The way you commplain seems like you have already LOST ..stop complaining and pretending to be able save any of your caste status.....from Jagjivan ram to Maya vati are showing you your place .....]

I haven`t lost one frikking thing in my life despite active discrimination against me. I have been able to beat you low-caste motherf@$*ers in everything that I have done.

On the other hand, the one who has lost wholesale in the process is India. From being an underdeveloped country with first-rate minds capable of propelling it into first-world status, you low-caste motherf@$*ers with your constant whining and whingeing have turned it into a fourth-rate country.

Jagjivan Ram to Mayavati are only showing the world the truth of the statement: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Give the frikking Muslims and Christians reservations and we will soon have you throwing up your @rse in the air 5 times a day or reproducing like crazy because the Pope tells you not to use birth control.

Re: # 43, Kaalchakra:

Are you reflecting a paranoia?

Dear Gopalakrishnan,

While recognising the problem of dalits and the discrimination against them, the solution of extending reservation to them is counterproductive as seen during the last 50 years.
I have seen first hand, fissures develop in my alma mater due to Mandal commission in early nineties. Now you are asking for a new fissure to be introdcuced deliberaltely.
Is there no other way of upliftment than reservations? Are we hell bent upon creating a society of free loaders and replacing the values of hard work and intelligence with caste labels. The dalits who have risen to positions in our society have done so on their own w/o the help of reservations. What is perhaps more difficult to do is to remove the stigma of caste system by providing equal opportunity to all and curbing the prejudices by enacting laws. If we can have a society which prides in accomplishments rather than labels, and gives a chance to everyone, perhaps we may begin to address this problem.

Adios

Inquirer,

Everyone wants change. Some want to move forward. Some want to go backwards. Some invent ways to drive themselves and everyone else into the (Soviet) ditch.

by harimau on December 30, 2006 6:38pm PT
Those who convert to religions that proclaim equality of all people (such as Islam or Christianity) should have no claims on quotas for Dalits. After all, haven`t they left their Dalit-hood behind when they left Hinduism? Let these traitors continue to wallow in their poverty and praise Allah or Jesus. I couldn`t give a sh!t about what happens to them and no Indian should either.``
................................
The way you commplain seems like you have already LOST ..stop complaining and pretending to be able save any of your caste status.....from Jagjivan ram to Maya vati are showing you your place .....

Re: # 18, Kaalchakra:

Your simplistic labeling reveals your mindset which is unable to see good in the society`s rational desire to correct itself. But I do believe in it and I predict that the revelations after the death of Mr. Ford will set up a chain of events, like a unity ticket in 2008 consisting of McCain-Clinton, that will lead to a revised form of socially oriented policies. The current USA has been doing foolish things that Marx talked about in his assessment of the capitalistic conspirers.

What we need is effective institutions which let a an evolution of the public`s view to control the public policies. Both the American (spectacularly since 2001) and Soviet systems failed in this. While the the Soviet system made a mockery of voting, the US system has subtly used tricks to discourage voting by economic and sometimes even violent means. Needless to say the fault in the Soviet system was fatal while the disease in US is controlled.

Re: # 39

Typo:

However u`ll never find a Swami Narayan devotee worshipping regularly in a Siva temple. Never.

Re: # 38

Mohar,

In the north there`s a semblance of amalgam between Saiva & Vaishnava panthis.In the south, there were riots/murder & hatred between the these two panths. Now this has gone for good. However u wud never find a Swami Narayan worshipping regularly in a Siva temple. Never.

++

(The author failed to give his references.)

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/12109.html

The ashraf-ajlaf-arzal (third one is my addition and & I hope the author Fazal wud excuse me for this) dichotomy is well-known. Claiming foreign descent, the ashrafs represented the Muslim great tradition and formed the erstwhile nobility. The Syeds, for instance, are accorded the highest place in the hierarchy on account of their claim of being descendents of the Prophet’s daughter, Bibi Fatima. In materials terms the ashraf status was sustained through jagirs and zamindaris and through their domination over religious institutions and centres of learning.

...
...

Lower down the hierarchy stand the ‘ajlafs’, those of lowly birth, converts from clean occupational castes — jolahas, dhunias, kunjras, hajjams, darzis, rangrez and so on. The 1901 Census recorded the presence of 133 Muslim castes, most of which comprise the ajlaf category. A number of these occupational groups, on account of their marginality, found place in the Mandal list and were later accommodated in the Central and state OBC lists.

...
...

Yet another group recorded in the 1901 Census was ‘arzal’, populated by the lowest castes, such as the halalkhor, lalbegi, abdal and bediya, “with whom no other Muhammadan would associate, and who are forbidden to enter the mosque or to use the public burial ground”. Certainly, Dalit Muslims are the arzals, mostly engaged in scavenging or in other occupations considered unclean. Excluded from the benefits for SCs, these Muslims — namely, gadheris, bhatiyaras, gorkuns, mehtars or halalkhors, Muslim dhobis, bakhos, nats, pamarias, as the study by activist Ali Anwar suggests — remain on the periphery of education and employment.

+++

Hizra Paaki,

U seem to tbe lover of this letter `z`! The author Fazal used J and Z whereever necessary. Not all `Ja` s are not `Za`s. (ashraf-AJaf and ArZals...gotcha?

By the bye, look at Al-ZaJeera!

It clarifies that not all Zs are nor Js. May be u wud like that to be written as Al-ZaZeera??? Chuti-ta!!

Re: # 37

I don`t know.... horrible as the caste system was/is - it still doesn`t hold light to the way muslims have brutalized each other.... for example - reading about what saddam has done to shias in iraq.... what`s happening now in iraq in name of ``civil war`` - I don`t think such level of brutalization and mass murders has ever happened among hindu castes...

........ it is only when we start talking about the caste system that i realize that out horrible hindoo neighbors are just as much, if not more, f%$ked up than us ! ............

Those who convert to religions that proclaim equality of all people (such as Islam or Christianity) should have no claims on quotas for Dalits. After all, haven`t they left their Dalit-hood behind when they left Hinduism? Let these traitors continue to wallow in their poverty and praise Allah or Jesus. I couldn`t give a sh!t about what happens to them and no Indian should either.

To quote Bobby Knight..``if rape is inevitable..why not lie back and enjoy it``...this is how pakistanis speak with love about their forefathers..the ghaznavis and the ghauris..while their foremothers laid back and enjoyed. Where is faisaluno when you need him?

#33 ....and become like you? dont be cruel to these poor people. :-)

There`s a simple criteria which the Dalit Muslims and Christians need to satisfy in order to get Reservations:

Convert back into Hinduism

Rgds,

I agree with author but moment a dalit converts ,he is recognised by his RELIGION(minority)to EXCLUDE him or her from any benefit particularly by the fascist hindutva elements

The quota system could be amended/augmented by requiring 2 distinct conditions as necessary and sufficient. Perhaps a reclassification ought to be done that discards any religious affiliation. But, of course, quota system for christians and muslims is highly controversial as the author implies because religious conversion is supposed to have erased caste-based discrimination. Majority hindus consider anyone outside the fold as beyond the varna system and, depending on the location and their profession & economic status, christians and muslims occupy either an indeterminate position in the caste hierarchy or a lower rung.

The conditions are: 1. Belongs to SC or ST & 2. Financially needy.

# 28

Those are really good distinctions, HP. Thanks!

As probably my last posting on this board, let`s clearly disabuse anyone here of Indian leftist lie that there is anything as bad in Islam as the caste system. Please read the following if you missed it on another board, and see if Islam did not treat its own a million times better.

``A hard working family of low castes, I know off, have become rich because of growth in their business. None of their family members are beneficiary of affirmative actions. They are not highly educated people, and are content with running their business.
5yrs back they had invited a popular Swamiji from our city for ‘Satsangs & Ram-naams’ (Religious gathering for prayers). The Swamiji was suppose to stay for 3 days in their house. He was given lots of gifts & dakshina, and was treated very well. After staying for a day, the Swamiji left, saying that a powerful forward castes group conveyed to him that they cannot come for ‘Satsangs’ in the their house and therefore, do not want Swamiji to stay in their house. It was a big time humiliation for this family. They have learnt their lesson. Now they will never invite a Swamiji, nor do they go to any ‘satsangs’. This happened in a big city and a decent locality.`` (By satya)

Shias and Sunnis may kill each other. They may together oppress Ahmedis (who, I have never understood, why they should be or want to be called Muslims). Yet neither Shias nor Sunnis heap humiliation upon and practise discrimination against their own the way we Hindus did for centuries, convinced of our God-given right to do so.

Unfortunately, even today Indian leftists have no qualms about insulting anyone`s intelligence.

#26 by kaalchakra

“Why are Pakistani leftists so much smarter than Indian leftists? LOL”

Then perhaps you don’t know Indian leftists:) Some of them are super intelligent and in fact rather inspirational. I often read their articles and on hard left magazines and they make lots of sense.
Btw, I surely don’t count myself as leftist though I have a high regard for leftists at least in Pakistan.

“know the reason. Because unlike Pakistani leftists, Indian leftists simply have no understanding of the power religion has to foment tremendous conflict.”

I would think that it is the other way around. In Pakistan there are no competing religions. The problems between the shia and the sunni communities are recent and are at a very low level where criminals take advantage of the situation. There are no Shia or Sunni Ghettos in Pakistan.

However, in Pakistan people learn to deal with the political religion fast. Which means the struggle between the liberals and the fundos is not about community rivalries but it is about power. Since the religion is used to destroy the liberal opposition, the liberals learn to understand political side of the religion. So they are sharp in that area but would not understand the finer nuance of communal side of the religions.

hamidm #4 This news you bring of arains not marrying outside their tribe did not reach my wife when we were getting married, and thank God for that. :-)

HP

You got that exactly right.

Why are Pakistani leftists so much smarter than Indian leftists? LOL

(I think I know the reason. Because unlike Pakistani leftists, Indian leftists simply have no understanding of the power religion has to foment tremendous conflict. This shortcoming goes back to the time of Nehru, but at least he had intellect and sincerity).

Now this is one ridiculous article that deals with perhaps an important issue but does not have any reference to prove the point. This is one hell of a ridiculous thing to say:
“It is said that in Bihar, ninety percent of Muslims are Dalit Muslims.” and in the very next sentence the author claims that “There is no clear-cut definition of Dalit Muslims either.” This is totally insane.

Now something about Ashrafia and ajlafs. The correct word is azlaf and not ajlaf. Semantic aside, I have never heard of this distinction in Indian Muslims or more specifically Muslims from India who migrated to Pakistan. Though there is an acute sense of oonch- neech in UP and Bihari Muslims. And it is also true that ashrafia does not like to be related to Dhobi, jolaha, and Burhai. So in that regard there is a distinction in Muslims. This distinction does not correspond to Ashraf or azlaf in common parlance.

This distinction between a handyman and a small zamindar are common in Sindh, Punjab, NWFP and Baluchistan too. I doubt very much that they are religious distinction as they appear in Hindu lifestyle.

It seems to me that it is a politically motivated distinction to counter the growing Muslim demand for quotas etc. The easiest way to derail a demand is to find little chinks and make a mountain out of it. In India’s specific situation it is clearly an attempt to confuse the quota demands by Dalits, Muslims or perhaps other communities too.

That leads me to support what Kaal perhaps tried to imply in his various posts(sometimes his posts are encrypted).

The better way to handle the quota issue is not religion or sectarians or even on federal level.
The more quotas you have based on religion or dalit types of situations, the likelihood of acrimonies between the communities increases.

If Indians were to use quotas to improve the lot, they need to figure out which areas need help not which group or people of a particular faith need the help. And it should be done on the state level. The federal government should not have any business deciding quotas in schools and colleges. I assume here that education in India is a provincial or state subject and not a federal subject.

They need to defined developed, less developed, and underdeveloped areas and then proceed with quotas to ALL people living in those areas. Currently a Dalit even though he/she has been raised in Mumbai with better schooling system is at par with a Dalit who went to a school in some village where one teacher taught all the subjects.

Take the case of Bihar, not every part of Bihar is underdeveloped, there are some better schools in some cities so declaring all Muslims or all dalits living in Bihar cities, underprivileged probably would amount to depriving some really deserving kids.

Despite being a secular state India enforces religious and sectarian distinctions in its day to day system. Has anybody heard of quota for Shai and Sunni in Pakistan? Though there are quotas for rural and urban areas in Sindh and Baluchistan. A Sindhi/Balochi kid raised in Karachi cannot claim special privileges.

Zee, that`s a difficult challenge, because Indian leftists themselves aren`t sure what they wish to say or what they want us to hear. But since you asked :)

The author is proposing that some Muslims be treated as untouchables for Indian legal purposes because, according to his knowledgeable sources, Indian Islam promotes untouchability and Indian Muslims practise untouchability widely among themselves.

#19 by hamidm2

Hamidm2, if that was true what yuu say, why do I look different and feel different from Grandpa Gopinath?

I`m a Rajput. So I must be descended from Gramps Gopinath, but why do I look and feel different?

There must be an answer ....

#19 by hamidm2

Hamidm2, if that was true what yuu say, why do I look different and feel different from Grandpa Gopinath?

I`m a Rajput. So I must be descended from Gramps Gopinath, but why do I look and feel different?

There must be an answer ....

#18 by kaalchakra

kaal , I woould still want you to explain in two sentences what this article is about .. I know I can count on you ... always ... I have a serious attention problem ...

Speaking of communism, systems don`t degenerate randomly. What people see as `degeneration` is often little more than different aspects of the system coming to the fore under different internal and external conditions.

Caste system (IMO) failed. Communism failed. What their TRUE form or principle was doesn`t matter, since people will look back to time to see what they wish to see.

Finally, justice and opportunity are democratic principles, not uniquely communist ones. Even so, no democratic society or country has ever implemented job reservations for poor people because it simply does not make any sense (except if Indian leftists voluntarily reliquish their jobs which could then be offered to more deserving poor people).

Re: # 15

zeemax,

........ i hate to inform you that most muslim converts were more than likely dalits and other lower caste hindoos - why the heck would a brahmin priest or a rajput warrior leave the comfort of his faith ?........... all these people who claim to be rajputs, arains, chauhans, syeds, mans, chaudharys and quraish were probably dhobis like my grandpa gopinath, or mochis like tahmed`s grandpa velapativilyalum .........

........ sorry to burst your bubble

Inquirer bhai, that # 17 argumentation is BS.

It`s just not true that Pakistanis don`t care, and Indians care.

By extending that logic, nobody on God`s earth, other than Indians and communists - paragons of all virtue, cares about poor people.

That is not your intention, but isn`t that kind of thinking insufferably, unforgivably conceited?

Re: # 16, zeemax:

I do not know if Gopalkrishnan will respond but I will explain what I understand.

There are two types of muslims in India, nay the World see Hamid2. Ashraf and Ajlaf. Now in a country like Pakitan where the country is run for Ashrafs and no body gives a damn for Ajlafs, it does not matter.

India, hoever, cares for all Indians and the Hindu schedule castes are given special helps but the muslim ajlafs do not qualfy for help as they are outside the pail of hindism. Now the ajlafs demand in India the same help as is given to scheduled caste hindus.

I didn`t read the article BTW ... just the runner. If you may, kindly tell me what you`re saying because my attention deficit is limited to two sentences.

Thanks.

Muslims are Dalits? WTF are you talking about ...

Re: # 4: Congratulations for honesty!

Re: # 10:

Kaalchakra, what do you mean by valid?

Marx recognized that the human behavior is controlled and guided by economic benefit. Lenin recognized the truth was applicable in case of pre-war I Russia. He worked out an international coalition and succeded not due to it but primarily because the Czars has just reached a limit of unacceptability. The system developed by Lenin degenerated into that of Stalin which was not as bad as portrayed by the capiltalists but was sufficiently inadequate to abort. The reason for the degeneration of Lenin`s system was partly the war waged by Western European and American governments. The system remained ``valid`` for 70 years. Furthermore, its usefulness to the World in preventing a US empire after the WWII was not negligible. In a World devoid of the Soviet Union, the Americans would have substituted themselves in the world for the British. Not only that FDR arose due to the Soviet Union as obvious to even any casual visitor to the FDR Memorial.

No, they will not always fail if the social and individual forces are appropriately balanced. There is already an experiment going on in China. On the other side, the modification of the laissez faire by the Americans during 1935 to 1965 is another example. Even though the profiteering by America in the two WWs can NOT be ignored, it is the internal change in America itself to incorporate the constructive aspects of socialism that has made America what it is today.

Re: # 7

well, there is always a first time... :)...

`free-jobs-for-the-poor` should be read as `job-reservations-for-the-poor`` (question: did even those failed socialist dictatorships go so far?).

Inquirer

A valid system is one which succeeds in the face of stiff competition from other systems, even as it works with realistic (not ideal) human material. Faced with that challenge, those ``free-jobs-for-the-poor`` socialist economies ultimately failed, just as they always will in any competition between groups of self-interested human beings.

Are our leftist friends still dreaming of implementing those failed socialist ideas in India?

Re: # 7:

The failed socialist economies did but they made no requirements for the self improvements due to their dictatorial form of governments and thus aborted the valid aspects of Marxian philosophy. No doubt an intensely organized and focussed opposition from the capitalists of the West contributed to the development of obtuseness of the socialist dictators.

Congratulations, Gopalkrishnan, for a very well written , substantive and informative article. I am satisfied to note the developments regarding the dalit muslims and christians. Recent economic studies in India have established that in general muslims are even below the SC&Ts. Muslims` fantasy and delusions have played a significant role in the state of affairs that obtain. I totally agree with you that the corrections will be most desirable and effective when they are instituted in a deliberate fashion to strengthen Indian Unity and be based solely on the economic merits. In a democracy where the vote banks are are an important tool of democratic action, it is extremely difficult to avoid the political considerations but the genius of India has so far generally indicated that those considerations can be made secondary to the NEEDED actions in a just society.

#1, 3, 4, and #6 are excellent responses. I agree with them.

No doubt the Hindu SCs are ridiculously supported by the antiquated scriptural references. That needs to be removed effectively. However, it is also true that the christians and muslims have adopted the same techniques to keep large groups suppressed and this is not limited to India. This is true all over the world. Marx put the correct emphasis on the economic aspects. Tragically, however, the socialits failed to put enough emphasis on individual initiative leading to the defeat in the economic melieu of the world.

dr sahib

Has any country at any time implemented job reservations for ``poor people?``

hamidm2

The Hindu caste system was and is a very different beast than that. It created far greater disadvantages for some people than any biradari system ever would.

#4 H2

NOW we know where you waste your time when you are not doing it here!

Re: # 3

tahmed,

....... it is the same in pakistan where arains and chaudharys will not marry outside their `caste`- you should watch the tv show, shadi on line .......

Disgraceful - Indian muslims calling themselves Ashraf or Ajlaf`s depending on circumstance of birth.

Although I must admit that my knowledge of these communities is rudimentary at the best, Muslim and Christian’s claim to Dalithood would be hard to verify because unlike Hindu society where caste barriers were very rigid (and still are in some parts of our country), inter-caste marriages may not be unconceivable. Besides, Christian and Muslims may have same access to education and similar challenges irrespective of their caste of origin.
This brings us to the larger debate of determining who is disadvantaged when it comes to access to education and job opportunities. One important fact that is the root cause of this issue is that we have limited supply educational institutions and large masses vying to get into them.

It is strange situation in India regarding the affirmative action. Reservation is being provided on the basis of caste of birth while theis caste division theoretically only applies to Hinduism. Like Christianity and Islam, Sikhism is also caste-less religion but in legal terms, ithe `hindu` laws apply to it, henec the dalits in sikhism get reservation. I think the best solution is to keep caste and religion totally out of this and reservation should be provided purely on the basis of economic backwardness.