Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

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Re: # 8

Kulharee makes a trenchant criticism of this article - it is overly concerned with the role of enterprise and business in setting the foundations within which democracy is possible.
(they are necessary but not sufficient conditions)

I dont believe that prosperity must precede democracy. In Britain the demands of working people for better standards and more rights led the moves towards the universal franchise together with elements of the enlightened business and political and religious classes.

The people of Pakistan must yearn for democracy and it will come - for if there is no desire among the people then democracy will wither on the vine or grow into something outwardly democratic but inwardly twisted. The peril I suspect for Pakistan will be the inevitable intergrowth of the state with Islam. If Pakistan is sensible I think it will choose to restrain the influence of Islam as it evolves its democracy - it will instead carry forward the core spirit of Islam into its democracy. My worst vision for Pakistan though would be the growth of the kind of democracy that Iran practices which is notional and subserviant to the dictates of pious religious interpreters.

if a democratic system of government enables pakistan to take steps to become independent using its own resources and not use aid and help from western and other countries like it has with past leaders then there is no reason why there shouldnt be a democratic government. One of pakistans major weaknesses has always been its economy and in order to overcome that problem it has used relations with other countries for help economically, in order to become more stable pakistan needs to look in itself and not at examples of other countries, sure democratic systems work well in western countries, but, the same system of government may not work as well in pakistan. trying to modernise pakistan like countries in the west and india has done and is doing, has already made so many alterations to our thinking and culture and now if we keep modifying our thoughts and way of life to that which is similar to countries in the west soon we will just be doing the opposite of what Chaudhry Rahmat Ali aimed to do when he thought of forming pakistan, we wont be preserving Islam by being part of pakistan, changing our ways of thinking and modernising everything like westerners is just slowly taking us further away from our previous islamic lifestyles. before deciding what type of government we need take a look at our society, its thoughts, its religion and its needs and how we can be seen as more stable and independent in the eyes of other countries and the only way of doing that is to look to at the needs of our own communities so that we can modernise our communities but still preserve islam in them aswell.

Manto mian,

(Majumdar and the rest,

I responded to your rants on the Nehru board. Please do read. )

I have not even made my appearance on this board and you have heard my rants.

But do tell me what you want me to read. Anything for my fave chowkie.

Regards

Re: # 248

Rough Treatment for 2 Journalists in Pakistan

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By CARLOTTA GALL
Published: January 21, 2007

My photographer, Akhtar Soomro, and I were followed over several days of reporting in Quetta by plainclothes intelligence officials who were posted at our respective hotels. That is not unusual in Pakistan, where accredited journalists are free to travel and report, but their movements, phone calls and interviews are often monitored.

On our fifth and last day in Quetta, Dec. 19, four plainclothesmen detained Mr. Soomro at his hotel downtown and seized his computer and photo equipment.

They raided my hotel room that evening, using a key card to open the door and then breaking through the chain that I had locked from the inside. They seized a computer, notebooks and a cellphone.

One agent punched me twice in the face and head and knocked me to the floor. I was left with bruises on my arms, temple and cheekbone, swelling on my eye and a sprained knee.

One of the men told me that I was not permitted to visit Pashtunabad, a neighborhood in Quetta, and that it was forbidden to interview members of the Taliban.

The men did not reveal their identity but said we could apply to the Special Branch of the Interior Ministry for our belongings the next day.

After the intervention of the minister of state for information and broadcasting, Tariq Azim Khan, my belongings were returned several hours later. Mr. Soomro was released after more than five hours in detention.

Since then it has become clear that intelligence agents copied data from our computers, notebooks and cellphones and have tracked down contacts and acquaintances in Quetta.

All the people I interviewed were subsequently visited by intelligence agents, and local journalists who helped me were later questioned by Pakistan’s intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence.

Mr. Soomro has been warned not to work for The New York Times or any other foreign news organization.

{``Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?``}

NO

Sorry guyz for the distraction, dont read this if u like Chowk administrators:

If u like these Chowk Administrators, pl dont read this.

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We are fed up with these niggers.

For those who dont know: Two posts were made on boards
1. Wife beating 2. Pakistan`s Democracy. None of the msgs was abusive.

That means no violation of any guidelines. The words didnt contain any abusive words which we normally see them here and the posters were normally overlooked.

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Sample: By HP 232 on India`s Foreign Policy board:

``Abey bhootni kay apni maan kay khusam say gaand mara.``

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We sent several emails b4 this to Chowk Eunuchs. Now we sent another on the same subject. It may look silly but it looks like that Chowk Chutiyas are deaf-cum-blind or rank Eunuchs.

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Quote:

I dont know if it`s a person or a group of persons:

We had been asking for termination of our IDs for good but u guyz never responded to the emails.

We want our IDs both VRV and Folio to be terminated for good.

Emails were sent and u were sitting on them.

Shameless chituya(s).

Mard hai to terminate kar, yah if u dont then confirm that u are eunuch(s)!

Mard(s) or Eunuch(s)??????????????

Unquote

Chowk Administartor(s) Chutiy(s).

P.S: This is no way meant for the guys who founed this site and I feel that founders and administartors are not the same.

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Read this about Jinnah house on wiki.. There is a photo too..
..Jinnah House was the residence of Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan; in Mumbai, India. It was built in 1936 at a then exorbitant price of 2 lakh (200,000) rupees when Jinnah returned to Mumbai from England to take charge of the Muslim League. Now worth £ 15 million, also refer[1](actual worth around Rs.2000 crores!), the house is the subject of a dispute between India, the government of Pakistan and Jinnah`s daughter. The bungalow is located on Mount Pleasant Road (now Bhausaheb Hirey Marg) in the upmarket Malabar Hill area of South Bombay. Its opposite neighbour is the residence of the Chief Minister of Maharashtra.

Designed by architect Claude Batley in the European-style architecture, the sea facing palatial bungalow is constructed using exquisite Italian marble and walnut woodwork. Specially imported Italian stone masons were employed for its construction with Jinnah personally supervising the construction ``brick by brick``. The property encompasses an area of 10,000 square metres (2.5 acres). The mansion, with its pointed arches and impressive columns, is currently in a dilapidated state, and much of the walnut panelling has rotted


``it`s a small house fit only for a small European family / refined Indian prince``.. yeah right, what a racist b****** .. this house should be used by the Mumbai slum clearance board..

``Sri Prakasa, don’t break my heart. Tell Jawaharlal not to break my heart, I have built it brick by brick. Who can live in a house like that? What fine verandas? It is a small house only for a small European family or a refined Indian prince. You do not know how I love Bombay. I still look forward to going back there,`` Jinnah had said.

Right.. Jinnah`s logic is this.. ``my land is my land.. and your land is my land too``..

Mantolives:

Jinnah by comparison to all these gentlemen remained committed to bringing Hindus an Muslims together... secularism and protection of minorities all his life... it was this commitment that led him to ultimately struggle for Pakistan ... and it was this impulse which was consistent when he spoke all through out that last year for minorities and travelled from Lahore to Karachi to Peshawar to Quetta to Dacca ... emphasising the protection of minorities at all costs.

Yeah yeah right.. if only Jinnah was alive ahmadiyas would have got a better deal as the new ``minorities``.. and that too the honor of being the neo-Dalit-Muslims.. :-)

bjkumar:

what`s that you are smoking?.. smells good.. :-)

Majumdar and the rest,

I responded to your rants on the Nehru board. Please do read.

Dear VRV,

1. I agree that Pakistan and India are made up of many more nations... than either country is willing to accept.

2. The Governor General of both Pakistan and India had the same powers under the Independece of India Act 1947 read with Government of India Act 1935.

Let me restate what you`ve been trying to say:The problem that you`ve been trying to notify is that by Jinnah`s choice of the office of governor general, in the common eye the office of the governor general became more important than that of the Prime Minister. Now this might be true, but that simply is a question of executive powers... a strong presidency v. a strong PM ... Now unless you are suggesting that countries with strong presidents i.e. France, US, Turkey etc are not democracies... this does not have a bearing on the argument per se.

The truth is that Jinnah was the first Governor General in the British government of Asian and non-British background. Through out his life- and this even his worse opponents accep-he had beaten the British at their own game. The British aristocrat mind was too racist to accept Jinnah as an equal to their Lords and Sirs of noble British birth... so it was a bitter pill for them to swallow and they spread a lot of garbage about it.

#240 PewResearch: Are you unaware of the spite and hate that flows from your countrymen on chowk day in day out? So if you come to me with your ``pessimistic`` view of the future of Pakistan based on the usual flimsy excuses that Indians come up with on chowk (some crime report picked from a Pakistani newspaper, something negative said about Pakistan in some western press), why do you expect me to take you any more seriously than the rest of your countrymen?>

bye bye. End of Discussion too.

Re: # 237 Tahmed32

``Sure we have a problem with the military usurping democracy in Pakistan, and you can no use that as an excuse for Indian hatred...``

You are one confused and highly insecure individual:

1) Even when I pointed out that the source material was PBS and American/Afghan experts you react to `Indian hatred`. The messenger (assuming that I am Indian, of course) looms larger than the message!

2) Connecting the dots between `military usurping democracy in Pakistan` and the cancerous growth of Taliban/Al Qaeda are tantamount to `hatred`? (and `Indian` to boot!). (do you even know what DNI Negroponte told Congress last week?)

3) My 3 or 4 posts from the last few days are somehow part of a `between 1947 and 1958, and again in the 1970`s and again in the 1990`s`. And this from someone who wrote in #195, ``I think you should be looking towards the future``. You disingenuous man!

4) My concern for democracy in Pakistan is right now limited to containing the spillover of scum that regularly pours out of Pakistan`s borders on murderous missions (whether it is the shoe bomber, London tube bombings, 9/11 -- heck, PBS even details all the links to Pakistan: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/pakistan/). Nowhere did I contend that I convey `tender concern for democracy in Pakistan` in any other context.

In all of this discussion of peripheral issues, you have ducked and parried from engaging in the question that you yourself raised in post #195, ``I think you should be looking towards the future``. Huh?

No wonder your country (being led by morons and with the sympathy of individuals like of you) will remain in the dark ages.

End of discussion.

tahmed is busy calling someone hateful for posting what various people have said on NPR and other media about Pakistani policy in Afghanistan. How can it be hateful to discuss public policy of Pakistan which affects millions of nonPakistanis

Re: # 236

Zeena:

May be you should visit Pakistan more often. You seem are more aware. Congratulations for the burn center you set up. Write about your experience of accomplishing it. I for one would like to know.