Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

I don`t think plagiarisers like BJ Kumar have any right to discuss important issues like the partition of the sub-continent ... here`s the proof I posted on UP:

BJ,

You shouldn`t have challenged me on this .. :

Here ...

Endless Knight
Beej K. Singh

...even though everyone knows the ultimate futility of dusk overcoming all – and spring smiles giving way to autumn leaves only destined to mingle with the dirt in the road – yet they wait.

Half a Night
Farzana Versey

It takes a lifetime
to realise
obsessions are not certainties.
It’s requiem for spring smiles
as she gathers autumn leaves
in the dirt roads

guys (various) why do you want to quibble, over the Famous Jinnah Equation M=3H

It exists. Its a fact like the SWE and E=0.5MC^2.

Jinnah Equation is an essential element of all dynamic is society, even theiraqis sunnis and shites are using it to the hilt. Indeed the iraqi and shites are developing a new constant here and their modification is called the Iraqi-SS-JInnah-Equation, IS=K(ISh).

So stop quibbling now. JInnah came up with it not gandhi or nehru or patel.

It is the basis of democracy in pakistan. For god sake let it be....

#122 I did not say ``West India``. I said the term ``India`` originally referred to the land of Indus (now Pakistan) - from ancient times when what is now India was the backwaters to where the first human civilizations in this area started. In other words, the very name India is ``bollywoodized`` from Pakistan!!

If you disagree and claim I said ``West India`` (which in fact is the term you introduced) - it is easy enough for you to cut and paste where you claim I am on record for saying this.

Please dont make up ``facts``, since that way the discussion quickly turns to bs.

And now I see I am your ``ama`` as well as your ``mian``!! and Pakistan is ``West India``!! are you feeling OK, bj jee? :-)

#121

Ama mian Tauheed,

You are on record as saying that there is sound factual basis for calling West India by its accurate name - and that name beats by a mile than that artificial misnomer construct ``Pakistan``!

You can not get out of your own trap of words - no matter how much you squirm, wiggle, or improvise!

Regarding only your wife calling you ``mian``, I may have been misled by Hamidm2 who keeps calling EVERYONE mian!

Hmmm.... that sheds a completely different light on some of the interrelationships here!

bjkumar: On Pakistan being West India - I eagerly await your response to the question I had for you on unplugged: Why do you believe that future generations of pakistanis will curse the ``founding generation``, jinnah, etc.? isnt 60 years of waiting long enough?

Better to get used to Pakistan being Pakistan, not India. I am all for peace and friendship and good neighborly relations with India, and glad to see our political ``deciders`` in both countries moving in that direction.

btw, only my wife can call me ``mian`` (husband). so please just refer to me by the perfectly fine nic I use (tahmed, or the full nic tahmed32 if you are really mad at me for something), since i am not your ``mian``. :-)

#119 VRV

Ama yaar, sometimes I think you are SO dense!

[...the insignificat name of East India]

Did Virginia change its name to East Virginia?

And who lost out?

Let me repeat what I told mian Tauheed on Unplugged.

---

#29 by bjkumar on January 13, 2007 8:46pm PT

#28 tahmed32

Tauheed sahib, please read the thread topic again.

I am not even discussing this ``one country`` versus ``separate country`` issue. All I am saying is that ``West India`` is the more accurate name for that piece of land (and you are on record saying that I have a sound factual basis for saying that)!

Clearly, people of your generation and the two succeeding generations are too emotionally inversted in your own follies to acknowledge simple facts openly.

That is why I was talking about the succeeding generations. I assure you, they will not judge the generations of those past 60 years with any degree of kindness.

And they will have a very legitimate reason for not doing so!!

---

#11 by bjkumar on January 13, 2007 10:40am PT

Sorry Tauheed Sahib,

The name ``India`` is already taken. It has been so for the last sixty years. You guys can not have it back.

As you know, possession IS 90% of the law! (The same goes for J&K, BTW!)

However, it is fine if you guys wish to recognize your own ties to your ancient land`s history by calling it by its accurate name ``West India``!

It makes sense historically, geographically, culturally, languagewise, you-name-it!

Plus just imagine - how much historical baggage you can drop in one bold move of updating that name.

---

I hope you get the picture!

Yasser,

U skipped the issue as usual, unfortunately.

I`ve never said Jinnah was unconstitutional, though unconstitutional was a wrong word to use here. The more appropriate word is immoral not illegal coz Jinnah made it legal by bending the rules.

Adpatation Orders were prepared as per the directives of Jinnah in contravention of the original India Independence Act 1947. The same Act was implemented in the Dominion of India without any changes.

What Jinnah did in the - what he considered as in the best interests of Pakistan - final analysis became Pakistan`s hidden nemesis ie. authoritarianism/autocracy/dictatorship.

That is my point.

1. Jinnah did change/altered the Adaptation Orders for Pakistan to suit his thinking

2. Jinnah was NOT retired from politics as u surmised

Why Jinnah changed is not my discussion but we can leave it to our imiginations; Indian cud allege that Jinnah had dictatorial tendencies 2. Pakistansi cud say that Jinnah was paternalistic. It`s just a matter of understanding.


(rest of th e reply after Burger King)


+++++

Anil,

When I was reading some journals I found out what u said; i.e Jinnah was constantly fed by the evangelists from Aligarh school of thought. Like in all events it`s the hero who gets the fame, not the technicians who helped him.

+++++

BJ,

If they are west India then we`d be relegated to the insignificat name of East India. Let them take river Indus or rename it as river Pakistan & we keep our name INDIA, which`s worth a billion billion dollars.

Rats! The vamp can still pull a fast one on simple folks!

Here he is again - back by popular demand, of course!

The majestic Jinnah - that ruler of Pakistani hearts and minds - shown standing tall and proud atop his pedestal - fondly surveying all that he has accomplished!

The majestic Jinnah - the ruler of Pakistan - shown atop his pedestal - fondly surveying all that he has accomplished!!

#111

[only hear I heard people wanting to give him Bharat Ratna.]

And yet you are vying with such people to rehabilitate the blood-sucking vamp on a pedestal! Have some shame, my dear!

For Manto`s viewing pleasure - obviously he missed it before!

A map of the Democratic Republic of West India - that progressive, liberal, secular, women-respecting country that does not currently exist but is sure to some day.

And would have been already here but for the sins of one Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the vamp.

Re: # 104

So the Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist Gandhi was the ORIGINAL sinner ? and the killers that followed in his footsteps were merely little caricatures trying to look like him through half-hearted emulations of his acts!

Looks like being a killer is a prerequisite for being considered a legitimate progeny of Gandhi!

I wonder where that leaves mian BJKumar?

Re: # 75

Yes... only the same speech ended up shaking up India`s politics in 2005... taking coverage almost every day on the Front and Back of every major Indian newspaper... and ended up sowing the seeds of inner dissention in one of the two major Indian parties of today...

Partition of Punjab was Congress’ countermove as the sore losers put in place by the resolution of March 8, 1947, against ironically even Gandhi’s strong opposition. The reason…. Divided Punjab and Bengal would destroy Pakistan. Ironically, the date Lord Mountbatten and Nehru triumphantly decided to inflict such a horrible price on Pakistan was the 1st of April to make it repent.

The more I read the drama at the very end of the partition saga, the more I realize that Gandhi had seen the error of his ways at the very end… I suppose this following is the reason why Jinnah had described Gandhi as a friend of the Muslims after the latter’s death, despite the latter’s obvious role against the Muslims.

Mohandas Gandhi wrote this following letter to Mountbatten on May 8, 1947:

“I feel sure that the partition of Punjab and Bengal is wrong in every case and a needless irritant for the League… Whilst the British power is functioning in India, it must be held principally responsible for the preservation of peace.” (TOPP Volume X 667-668)

On May 17 Mahomed Ali Jinnah made this following appeal to reason – which Mountbatten and Nehru had none:

“The Muslim League cannot agree to the partition of Bengal and the Punjab… it cannot be justified historically, economically, geographically, politically or morally. These provinces have built up their respective lives for nearly a century… the principle underlying the demand for the establishment of Pakistan and Hindustan is totally different… In the name of justice and fairplay, do not submit to this clamour. For it will be sowing the seeds of future serious trouble and the results will be disastrous for the life of these two provinces.” (Jinnah’s letter to Mountbatten TOP X, p 852)

Sir Eric Meiville met with Jinnah on May 20th and reported the following to Mountbatten:

“At the end of our talk he (Jinnah) took my arm and said ‘I am not speaking as a partisan, but I beg to tell Lord Mountbatten once again that he will be making a grave mistake if he agrees to the partition of Punjab and Bengal.” (TOPP X 916)

What had Jinnah offered the Sikhs: Essentially a signed blank cheque… inter alia autonomy, defence ministry, permanent position as the Forces Chief…I remember Dullah Bhatti once asked Sadna this and Sadna refused to verify it. This is confirmed by Terrence Shone’s discussion with Jinnah . According to Terrence Shone, Jinnah said that he had offered 3.5 million Sikhs and Master Tara Singh everything he wanted, but “Sikhs in many ways admirable people lacked the leadership of the highest order”. (TOP Volume X P. 280)

On Bengal, Suhrawardy came up with the plan of a United Bangladesh endorsed and completely supported by Sarat Chandrabose and Kiran Shankar Roy… the major reason as John Tyson, Burrow’s special representative at the Governors Conference, reported was that

“Eastern Bengal alone was not going concern and never would be. It could not feed itself … it would become, in Sir Frederick Burrows words, a rural slum… Muslims knew all this as well as the Hindus- so they felt that the object of the cry to partition Bengal was to ‘torpedo Pakistan’”.

Mountbatten replied: “ Anything that resulted in torpedoing Pakistan was of advantage.”

(Minutes of the Governors Conference, 15th April. Page 255 TOP X)

To quote Stanley Wolpert:

“Two weeks later, Mountbatten asked Jinnah what he thought of Suhrawardy’s proposal to create a separate sovereign Bengal, expecting him to be shocked at his Muslim League lieutenant’s treachery. Much to Mountbatten’s surprise, Jinnah calmly replied: ‘I should be delighted. What is the use of Bengal without Calcutta; they had better remain united and independent. I am sure they would be on friendly terms with us.” And when Mountbatten added that Suhrawardy would like Bengal to remain in the Commonwealth, Jinnah retorted, ‘Ofcourse, just as I indicated to you that Pakistan would wish to remain within the commonwealth.’ Had Mountbatten followed the advice of Gandhi, Jinnah or Suhrawardy, instead of listening to only to Nehru, Punjab and Bengal might have been spared the deadly horrors, and a richly United Bangladesh, with its capital in Calcutta, would have emerged instead of the fragmented, impoverished Bangladesh born from its eastern half a quarter of a century later.” (Shameful Flight, Page 142)

I think we can make out very well that the partition of Punjab and Bengal was imposed on the subcontinent by Nehru and Mountbatten… with Patel absenting … Jinnah, Gandhi and to some extent Azad opposing …. Had this not been undertaken, perhaps the violence and the legacy of violence would not have existed… there would have been three more or less secular republics i.e. Pakistan, Hindustan and Bangladesh…. existing with mutual understanding in this great common subcontinent of ours… as opposed to the three polarized and hostile ones today.

Re: # 110

BJ Bihari ji:

It seems some other ideology has taken hold you intelligent hostages like yourselves. Only intelligent hostages can break out of Stockholm Syndrome. Jinnah is an abandoned hero, only hear I heard people wanting to give him Bharat Ratna.

#109

[I regard him as abandoned Indian hero]

A perfectly understandable example of the Stockholm Syndrome!