Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

Re: # 97

Dost-Mitter:

I think you are picking on Romiar`s words that Jinnah could have done anyting - it is figure of his speech; while you explain cleansing in East Punjab to ``inability`` and weakness of Indian leaders. You and I both know Jinnah is more iconic in Pakistan than say Gandhi or Nehru are in India. Some of my friends honestly have organized classes in silicon valley to study Jinnah, and invited me as well. I wish I knew urdu to attend these studies, as I would have loved it. I believe, situation were not in Jinnahs hand either. I regard him as abandoned Indian hero, and India has not produced a demonic leader.

#101 i did not read bulleya`s post, but even if he says that I am sure you are aware that this was a transition period.

And I did not ask about Nehru`s motives for the same reason that I dont ask about Jinnah`s motives. How can one presume to have knowledge of someone`s motives in the absence of any evidence? So, by the same token as for Jinnah, I suggest you remove your certainty of Nehru`s evil motives too, and just assume that like Jinnah, like the departing brits, Nehru too merely screwed up.

But I have no reason to assume that this was a deliberate policy of ``ethnic cleansing`` on the part of either Nehru or Jinnah (as you are unduly certain of) or on the part of the brits. To do so would be to enter the realm of ``conspiracy theories`` of which there are far more accomplished weavers on chowk than myself.

What is more relevant than ``motives`` is the lack of interest on either side in bringing the perpetrators on their side to justice. But that is another story on which I have ranted enough on chowk....

Here is a picture of those darlings who have envisioned the ``true`` democracy that can be found nowhere in the world except in the Land of the Pure!

A Pakistani khaki in action!

#105
[p.s. he also, could not juggle bowling pins and hymn the national anthem at the same or.........nor could he tap dance and recite the chinese alphabet simultaneously.......or tie a cherry stem into a knot with his tongue........]

So all those ``special`` skills were competing for Jinnah`s attention and he had little time to prevent the bloodletting that happened right under his nose and under his direct command!

And the creep never felt a pang of guilt!

And mian Romair, your intellect truly shines when you compare all those ``special skills`` to the simple common-sense goodness of preventing the tragedy of ethnic cleansing.

Hopefully you have developed a few better skills than the original vamp, mian Romair - or perhaps I should just call you the little khaki creepy progeny of the vamp!

You know the Pakistani khakis of course - those creatures who live off the blood of their own countrymen!

dost-mittar #97: ``(a) He wanted to prevent ethnic cleansing in his new state but was unable to do so, in which case he could not do anything he wanted;``

.......you have taken a phrase i have used and have extended it imply a meaning it was not intended to imply......in such an instance, i will use the above choice that you have provided..........

.........if you follow the thread, when i stated, he could, ``do anything he wanted,`` it was in the context of pakistani politics and the constitution.......it was an extension of the comments from vrv where he stated that jinnah centralized political and constitutional power........i tended to mostly agree with him.....

........so yes, i agree, while he could do anything he wanted in the sphere of pakistani constitutional politics, there were some (infact many) things, outside of politics and constituions, he could not do.......he could not control post-partition ethnic cleansing, despite his good intentions.........that could not be controlled through a constitution, as far as i know.....

p.s. he also, could not juggle bowling pins and hymn the national anthem at the same or.........nor could he tap dance and recite the chinese alphabet simultaneously.......or tie a cherry stem into a knot with his tongue........

#102 mohar11

So Jinnah was the ORIGINAL sinner - and the killers that followed in his footsteps were merely little caricatures trying to look like him through half-hearted emulations of his acts!

Looks like being a killer is a prerequisite for being considered a legitimate progeny of the Jinnah!

I wonder where that leaves mian Yasser!

#102:


``with the exception of Nehru, senior leaders in India were probably okay with ethnic cleansing as well``

should have said with the exception of Nehru and Gandhi. Many senior Hindu and Sikh politicians were determined to extend ethnic cleansing to other parts of India as well, particularly North Indian states where the support for Pakistan was strong among Muslims and the rot was stemmed only due to the determined efforts by Nehru and Gandhi. A particularly effective way was to stop all refugee trains from crossing the Punjab border thereby reducing, though not completely stopping, the revenge killings.

Re: # 100

Jinnah was trying to create homeland for muslims - it took some blood, it always takes blood... which is fine... that`s not first time, it won;t be last time blood has been spilt in human history...

But he was NOT about protection of minorities, secularism, pluralism... those were NOT in his agenda, even though he paid some lip service...

tahmed32#98:

I did not make any speculation re. Jinnah`s evil intention. If you follow the thread of my interaction with bulleya, you would notice that I am following his statement that Jinnah could do anything he wanted in Pakistan; my two postulates in post#98 follow from that statement.

As far as the Indian Punjab is concerned, I made no statement that any leader in the newly independent India could ``do anything he wanted``. In fact, they were at their weakest at that point and Gandhi indeed was so unpopular that many people wanted to kill him and one actually did.

And while you did not ask, I am certain that, with the exception of Nehru, senior leaders in India were probably okay with ethnic cleansing as well.

As for Putin, he is using the same techniques as China does, namely, an iron control over politics while opening the economy along the capitalist lines.

#various interactors

Nobody doubts the smarts of the Jinnah.

Vamps are smart creatures!

The guy wanted his blood.

He got his blood!

And now blood is indelibly printed on that forehead.

And is going to stay right there - till the end of time!

He only had problems dealing with that terrible reality of daylight!

As does his progeny!!!

#96 dm: the only model putin has followed so far has been that of the mafia or the kgb (his former employer), complete with poisoning of inquisitive journalists, jailing of political opponents.

but perhaps you have special knowledge of putin`s noble motivations just as you have special knowledge of jinnah`s evil motivations.

#97 dm: having speculated on jinnah`s ``motives`` (having presumed his being in charge during a period of transition), would you care to shed light on why similar ``ethnic cleansing`` (your words, not mine) occurred in Indian panjab?

bulleya#95:

You are once again confusing the issue of responsibility for the partition of the Punjab and the ability to control ethnic cleansing after the new state had been created, in which Jinnah was omnipotent according to you (the ethnic cleansing was complete on both sides of the Punjab while Jinnah was very much alive and incharge).

So, there are two possible scenarios:

(a) He wanted to prevent ethnic cleansing in his new state but was unable to do so, in which case he could not do anything he wanted;

(b) He could have prevented ethnic cleansing, at least in Pakistan, but did not do so because he wanted to create a lebensraum for the expected flood of Indian Muslims who had fought and won a country of their own.

Take your pick!

arjun2:

``just like commie rat nehru pushed back market freedoms for which Indian companies weren`t ready?``

Not really! It was Garbachev who gave glassnost which gave political freedom but kept a tight leash on the state owned economy; the Chinese knew better and did the opposite and Putin is now trying to follow the Chinese model.

bulleya #88: ``Obviously, this did not include the ability to protect his minorities.``

......i think had he lived, he would have done a good job of protecting the minorities......obviously he could not protect each and everyone, much like he could not provide plubming to every individuals........however, his policies would have protected minorities - religious and ethnic......he, himself was a religious and ethnic minority in pakistan, being shia and gujrati........

........as for the events in 47, as explained below, he did whatever he could to create a situation where minorities would be safe after independence......once again, since he knew that the worst affected would be the weaker minorities in india, i.e. muslims........

but it takes two to tango........and nehru wasn`t interested.........

I mean - think about it: most pakis don`t believe in democracy [according to a poll published recently]... east pakis had democracy running for a while and are now back to sqaure one - back to pouncing on each other again... both muslim ``homelands`` are fast becoming talibanized... both have and are actively driving out minorities...

And yet - this guy romair comes along and says - ``oh jinnah offered autonomy to sikhs``... no sh!t dude, who the f*** believes any word jinnah or any other paki jacka$$ has ever said?... you pakis don`t even give autonomy to baluchis who are muslims themselves, sunnis at that[aren`t they?]... and you would have given autonomy to sikhs and hinuds!!!!... And dost-mitter would have been rooting for paki cricket team as Nand Kishore Sharma[or whatever his name is]!!!

yeah, right...