Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

#235 PewResearch: Sure we have a problem with the military usurping democracy in Pakistan, and you can no use that as an excuse for Indian hatred for Pakistan (excuse, Pakistani leaders and ``elite``).

But Pakistan had a democracy between 1947 and 1958, and again in the 1970`s and again in the 1990`s - and I dont recall any change in tone depending on the political situation within Pakistan. So excuse me but your tender concern for democracy in Pakistan does not ring true. The hate and spite towards Pakistan has deeper roots.

#235

Bravo!!!

Agreed 100%

Re: # 234 Tahmed32
The people of Pakistan are irrelevant because their opinion does not count with your government - your government is adept at manipulating elections. You can feign sympathy for them all you want, but the fact remains that your government does not listen to them, and you dont care.
You have confirmed my hypothesis that Pakistan`s most educated and its elites do not care about what really happens to Pakistan. If you did, you would not be trying to score petty debating points. Your affection for Pakistan is exceeded by your desire to defend Musharraf, the ISI and its policies. You can`t see the contradiction.

#233 The people (of Pakistan or any other place) may be irrelevant to you, but to me people are what its all about.

As for your dislike of Pakistani leaders and its ``elite`` (your term, and a meaningless one it is) - you are welcome to them. The future is not determined by your dislike for Pakistan, and you are merely clutching at straws in hoping that your ill-wishes about Pakistan come true. Make sure you have a good book to read while you wait for your ill-wishes towards Pakistan come true. Bye.

Re: # 232 Tahmed32
``...is it some kind of a reflex conditioning that causes you to see Pakistan as not merely another place where people live but as some kind of an evil monster?...``
By `Pakistan` I imply its irresponsible government and its President-General who lords over you all while being cheerlead by folks like you. (I was speaking after all about Pakistan`s foreign relations and its adverse impact on prospects for domestic growth). The people of Pakistan are largely irrelevant in this discussion, but the `elites` who support this government are just as culpable. Your hopes for a better future will come to nothing as long as your duplicitous government continues to mortgage your future in the name of `strategic depth` and `confrontation with India`. Read the PBS interviews, and you will understand what I mean.

#231 Pew Research: Ok, more seriously forget about ``elites`` (wrong word, btw) like me. The vast majority of Pakistanis are ordinary people, like people in every country. So - is it just a dislike for the ``hubris of the elites`` (whatever that means) or is it some kind of a reflex conditioning that causes you to see Pakistan as not merely another place where people live but as some kind of an evil monster?

btw, I dont think prayers have any effect anyway, it just makes the indivdiual feel better about things....but that is another story.

Re: # 230 Tahmed32
``I hope you also pray that Pakistan goes forward full steam ahead and does not get stuck in any morass ``
I would have prayed if prayers would have made a difference. But, alas with the hubris exhibited by`elites` like you, I dont think prayers alone will have any effect.

PewResearch: I am awed at our ability to check my blood pressure over the internet. If you say it is high, then it must be so and I shall cut down on my salt intake and exercise even harder than before. Thanks for the timely alert, doc.

When you write `` just confirms my fears that your country is headed into a morass.`` then all I can say is that in that case I hope you also pray that Pakistan goes forward full steam ahead and does not get stuck in any morass (or in any lessass either, for that matter).

I am also glad that you think our Great Leader Musharaff is smarter than I am, that it is re-assuring that the President of Pakistan is smarter than me (although I must confess I dont consider it to be a big challenge to be smarter than me).

Cheers!! (dont forget to pray that Pakistan does not get stuck in any morass). :-)

dekant #218 Like I said, it took you Indians 60 years of hating Jinnah, but finally you have come around to what we Pakistanis have been saying all along. Better late than never :-)

PS: Do you plan to stick around on chowk year after year as well to assure us Pakistanis that you dont want to have anything to do with us as well (like some of your illustrious countrymen)?

Dear Sole Spokesman,

I dont think that this address is offensive.

``1. The history I put up here is at complete variance to the official history promoted by the Pakistan government.``

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glad abt it but confluence of urs and ours is the ONLY way forward for our two countries (I dont use two nations as India`s made up of many nations and so is Pakistan).

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``2. You have flip flopped. First you alleged Jinnah`s actions as GG were undemocratic....``

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OK, I wud make my point again; I guess cogently.

India`s GG had no such powers as the powers of GG in Pakistan. Jinnah got them tailored to suit his ` thoughts/plans` for Pakistan in a paternalistic way (though I had different view of his actions vis-a-vis his powers as GG). His actions bode no good for democracy in Pakistan.

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Dear Sole Spokesman, I dont expect u acquiesce to what I gave as my analysis but I made no extraneous points other than what it was mentioned in the ToP documents/papers. Since I am not reading the ToP but bought the book God Delusion by Dawkins......I cant give more quotes unless u provoke me into going back to reading more documents on the Transfer of Power.

Have a Good day.

#225 by zeemax

Ok ok ... so Muslim sub-continent then? What else could it be ...

Going by this logic, Israel is the rightful occupant of the territory it sits on right now. Wonder why Muslims squeal in agony complaining about Israeli ``occupation``.

Re: # 225

Zee,

If u dont WANT to use the proper noun...alright. carry on. I cant make you use the proper noun. It`s in ur mind...leave it.

#224 by VRV

``...division of the British sub-continent .....``

Ok ok ... so Muslim sub-continent then? What else could it be ...

Re: # 219

Zee,

Thanks for the details but in the face of Jinnah`s advanced TB wudnt have made it possible. As far as I read from other books Jinnah had no such plans. As a Muslim Bania (Ismaili Khojas are Banias) he wanted to keep his property by requesting Nehru for that. He`d no empathy for the millions of such cases on either side of Radcliffe Line.

Now, how can we interpret the conversation between Sri Prakasa and Jinnah? Hold on! WTF he`s anything to do with India which he destroyed with his rigidness? What he`ll do here? He must be a split personality. I know that Jinnah was a psychopath but he`s a split personality as well!

``...division of the British sub-continent .....``

How does it read? What British sub-continent? U guyz must be from a nether world! U guyz believe in the non-existent Ummah but dont believe in the recent past/history?

Zee, u better stick to Ummah issues and economic analysis.

The author has beaten around the bush to reach the following conclusion ``Democracy is a good thing but under present circumstance we did not have an alternative to Musharraf`` which every other tom, dick and ``enlightened moderate`` already believes.

If our `political commentator and historian` justifies his ``enlightened moderate`` beliefs in this manner, why do we have an objection when our semi-literate fanatic uses selected anecdotes or sayings to justify his beliefs.

``#221 by ranjit on January 17, 2007 0:23am PT
I have an even better idea. How about we demolish/convert that Jinnah house in Bombay to build a brand new Ram Mandir there? Forget about Ayodhya, Jinnah`s house is the real sacred place for all hindus, since he is the real savior of hindus in the subcontinent. Yeah, Ram Mandir on Jinnah House!!! ``

no ranjit...don`t do that. i have seen jinnah house personally at malabar hill (by bribing the gaurd outside since entry is prohibited). all credit to jinnah...its a beautiful house, though not maintained well by the present govt. but i must confess that the old man had good taste in not only selecting a great design, but also the best location in bombay to make his house.

i recommend restoring it as it is and making it into a monument for jinnah. i also recommend that the president present the bharat ratna to jinnah posthumously in that house.

rgds,

devkant.