Huntington's Clash of Civilizations Thesis

Re:masadi#212

[..If you are, and that is what your argument suggests then you arguments are pathetically moronic. ...]

What is moronic is your absurd elevation of the powers of US/gora elites to the point of them being some kind of gods who control the destiny of billions and billions of people. Inadvertently you are taking a bunch of human beings and giving them omnipotent status of being able to control everything in this world, thus showing your deep down inferiority complex with respect to white people.

All civilizations go through ups and downs. The Romans were at the top once and everyone thought they were all powerful. Same with the Greeks, Persians, Mughals, Ottomans, British. Where are they now? In the trashcan of history. The US dominance in the world started only after the USSR collapse in 1980s. As it is, that dominance is being challenged all around by China, North Korea, Venezuela, Iran, the jihadis and even by India (from the economic angle as jobs are outsourced). It is dangerous to subscribe superhuman powers to any one race or nation, since it implies that you can never improve yourself and get anything done, since it is too difficult to change the status quo.

Your data point is basically the Pakistan government (and other banana republics) and its blatant manipulation by the US. But that is an abject failure of the Pakistani elites. They do not have the spine to stand up for their people or their principles and prefer to surrender their sovereignity at the drop of a hat. Other countries in the neighborhood like Iran or India have not allowed the US to control anything. India has followed an independent foreign policy and even economic policy. It has never given the US carte blanche on any decision, which is why the US always supported Pakistan until the past few years. Check out Nixon and Kissinger`s tapes where they call Indians as the ``Ba$tards`` repeatedly expressing their frustration at being unable to dictate terms to Indira Gandhi during 1971.

conquistador writes <<< If you argue that Iran has oil, then North Korea doesn`t. >>>

The US is doing quite a bit to build up Iran as a foe, when it is nothing. The US can make and break it at will as it did with Iraq, why it wont do it now is because it doesn`t need to. You are fogetting in your loop hole theory that the mess created at the partition was the result of the colonials and that ensured that the smaller more threatened part developed an abnormal military institution, that later went head over heels for the US regardless of the help provided. In the North Korean equation you are forgetting the role of China.

Then he writes <<< Conversely, isn`t the US getting entrenched too? With so much invested in China, what would happen to its economy should a confrontation take place? >>>

Why do you think the US is wooing India? Because it likes spicy food?

#216 by masadi on February 6, 2007 3:50am PT

There is an order to how the world is governed and that order just does not happen because all the colored folk decided to be corrupt or harm their own folk while all the white folk are decent and hard working people. This is the mythology of superior/inferior generated by these elite and forced upon the rest of the world where poverty is concentrated predominantly among the colored races.

But something is terribly wrong with us if we`ve let the Whites control our destiny for so long. Lets leave China aside and look at smaller examples like Iran or even North Korea. They openly cock a snook at the US and the US can only grin and bear, of course it does make threatening noises, but will it go for the kill? Highly unlikely. If you argue that Iran has oil, then North Korea doesn`t. NK has nukes and so does Pakistan. But Pakistan hasn`t been able to defy the US and has acted subservient to US interests. Where has Pakistan gone wrong? Traditionally, Pakistan has been contented in letting itself be used against other powers as long as it was adequately rewarded or its position on Kashnmir vis-a-vis India`s was supported. In this, I don`t see how you can blame the US. It merely exploited a loophole in Pakistan`s thinking.

The US does not twist China`s arm because China is of great benefit to the US economy, even though it becomes more intrenched and entrapped in the same system that was out to kill it in the first place. Why should the western elite kill the goose that is laying the golden egg.

Conversely, isn`t the US getting entrenched too? With so much invested in China, what would happen to its economy should a confrontation take place?

conquistador writes <<< Why is the US not able to twist China`s arms? >>>

My dear friend, we are talking about social institutions, institutions that by definition are viable, while people occupying the various statuses in them might change. You can be sure that anyone who has succeeded within a skewed instution has been adapted and controlled enough so that doing what the structure of the institution requires has become second nature to them, otherwise they would end up at a position of no consequence. There is an order to how the world is governed and that order just does not happen because all the colored folk decided to be corrupt or harm their own folk while all the white folk are decent and hard working people. This is the mythology of superior/inferior generated by these elite and forced upon the rest of the world where poverty is concentrated predominantly among the colored races.

The US does not twist China`s arm because China is of great benefit to the US economy, even though it becomes more intrenched and entrapped in the same system that was out to kill it in the first place. Why should the western elite kill the goose that is laying the golden egg. Wait for when it stops laying that egg or wants a larger part of what it lays or its market potential dwindles, then the knife will fall on it and fall on it more effectively than it could in the past when it was more unaligned.

#214 by masadi

It is completely, if we seek origins, the fault of the colonial and then the current US neo colonial elite that have ensured that viable political and economic institutions never take hold in our country, that it is aligned in serving the needs of whatever farcial conflict the US is fighting and that we remain firmly aligned with a system that has predictible losers and winner and the third world always loses and is driven behind by generations.

Then Masadi Bhai, what are the Paki leaders and public, vegetables? The US is able to manipulate Pakistan (or for that matter any country) because it is already weak from inside. Why does China give two hoots to American sensibilites? Why is the US not able to twist China`s arms?

China was just as poor as India and Pakistan were in 1947 when the subcontinent became free. Yet China today is a behemoth that gives sleepess nights to the US policy makers. Why is that?

Ranjit writes <<< The next time you are in your car in Karachi and a beggar kid knocks on your window, is that the fault of the US elites or your lousy socio-economic policies? >>>

It is completely, if we seek origins, the fault of the colonial and then the current US neo colonial elite that have ensured that viable political and economic institutions never take hold in our country, that it is aligned in serving the needs of whatever farcial conflict the US is fighting and that we remain firmly aligned with a system that has predictible losers and winner and the third world always loses and is driven behind by generations. Spend more on social services and raise the standard of living of the people and see how fast the multinationals escape from your country and the IMF and WB sanction you and the US elite label you a terrorist. Just do it and see. Given the current world situation my analysis is empirically borne out, while yours is pathetically infantile. The world is more connected to the dominant power`s decisions or lack thereof than anytime before in human history, implicit/almost automatic domination by global institutions dominated by the US elite is moreso than the old colonization, and yet you talk about personal responsibility when a person has to beg just to eat the minimum number of calories to stay alive.

Thank you Chowk staff for publishing this article, you all were brave to do it. As you can see it has set the tails of a lot of US worshippers on fire. Keep up the good work of not blocking articles that involve controversy. Thanks!

ranjit writes <<< This is a bogus argument that assumes that people all over the world have no free will and are mindless robots who can be remotely exploited at will by US elites >>>

What is bogus is the equation of the will of the people with the will of those that dominate and control social instutitions, in which the people are constrained to operate. What you are in fact suggesting is that people who create jobs and determine the size of the economy for the common man/woman who then works in them, has the same power, an ability to get things done even though others might resist (in case you dont know what power means) as the ordinary man in the street, or you are suggesting that the corporate chiefs who can with their decision being to zero, the national economy will have similar effect on the rulers as the man struggling in a job trying to make ends meet. If you are, and that is what your argument suggests then you arguments are pathetically moronic.

Then he writes, <<< What the US elites do very well is to align their own interests with their national interest to take their country to greater heights of economic and military power. Yes they dominate, not because they are super cunning or super evil, but because they love their own country >>>

Another BS argument, the US elite are a ``breed apart`` compared to the rest of the country, they consider themselves superior to the rest of society and seperate, many social psychological studies on the profiles of these elite have revealed that. Further their actions show that they do not love the people of thier country- when they transform the economy to low paying service jobs and send manufacturing jobs to low wage third world countries, they harm both their own people whose livelihood and standard of living is affected as well as those where the jobs are relocated. When they deny healthcare and food to a very large number of their population that lives on the margins, they are not taking their country to new levels of development, when they push for squandering money on wars, despite popular opinion being against them, expending the lives of the poor on both sides, they do not show love for thier country. Your ideas are pathetically naive and foolish to say the least

Re:masadi

[..Visit one of the many ghettos splattered all across the US urban scene and you will notice a similar structure as back home. The system that has created that poverty, as in the US, concentrated among people of color and women is the one that is making sure we remain where we are.....]

There is no denying that people of color and women are relatively disadvantaged in the US. But so what? Every country has its disadvantaged minorities and poorer segments of people. People from India and Pakistan are least qualified to talk about this given the conditions in our own countries. The next time you are in your car in Karachi and a beggar kid knocks on your window, is that the fault of the US elites or your lousy socio-economic policies?

Even if the US exploits its minorities, a very questionable assumption at best, it still does nothing to explain why our elites who rule our countries do not perform. No US elite is holding a gun to their heads and dictating policies (except perhaps coercive pressure on jihadi matters). On economic and social matters or on providing good, clean administration, our elites have all the freedom to perform or not perform. Sadly they rearely perform which is their incompetence, not a US problem.

Re:masadi#209

[..Countries do not develop in a vacuum, and the system of domination in place now due to global organizations and continent wide wars projected by the US for generations now has ensured that our priorities remain skewed.....]

This is a bogus argument that assumes that people all over the world have no free will and are mindless robots who can be remotely exploited at will by US elites. The US elites can barely control a bunch of insurgents in Iraq, let alone billions of third world citizens by their policies of domination!!

What the US elites do very well is to align their own interests with their national interest to take their country to greater heights of economic and military power. Yes they dominate, not because they are super cunning or super evil, but because they love their own country and watch out for its best interests. On the other hand, most of the third world elites (our leaders) are dumb, corrupt, mindlessly ideological, power loving and dont give a $hit about their own people. We have the free will to change our destinies, whether there is a US or no US. The US has been around for only 220 years, during most of which it was a middle-tier power. The third world countries have been around for millenia, yet we are in a lousy shape, mainly because of the complete failure of our elites to ever step up to the plate and deliver.

India and China are perfect examples. Until the sevenites in China and eighties in India, our elites developed and followed policies that were an economic disaster. Millions starved and the standard of living plummetted, not because the US didnt give us room to manouver but because it was our stupid decision to doggedly pursue a socialist utopia which could not even deliver a loaf of bread to the people. When the same elites turned around, kicking and screaming, just look at the change. You can still say that India and China have a lot to do, but it is undeniable that the change in national policies set over the past 2-3 decades have made an incredible impact on the lives of people. That is what free will is. Every religion acknowledges that there is a supreme, ominpotent being, but humans still have free will to change their lives. If God cant control us all the time, who the hell are the US elites? The demon exists, but it is in each one of us. If we exorcise it, we can certainly prosper and grab our share of the pie.

Ranjit writes <<< It makes us feel good for a while but does nothing to solve any problems. Why cant the authorities in Delhi or Karachi provide 24 hr electricity and water? Does the US elite or the World Bank come and stop them from doing their jobs? If we can afford all kinds of frikking missiles, F16s and satellites, why cant we afford 24 hr electricity or water? >>>

If anything, my articles are not ``feel good`` readings. Your views on lack of development in our parts of the world is just as misguided as that of ``development`` in the US. Visit one of the many ghettos splattered all across the US urban scene and you will notice a similar structure as back home. The system that has created that poverty, as in the US, concentrated among people of color and women is the one that is making sure we remain where we are. Countries do not develop in a vacuum, and the system of domination in place now due to global organizations and continent wide wars projected by the US for generations now has ensured that our priorities remain skewed. Comparing the rat`s fart standard of living in American for the vast majority as a percent of its gdp and then saying that peons of the West, and raw material producers locked in dependent development can`t achieve that merely shows how ignorant you are in your analysis. The article is not about blame-game, that was an easy escape and excuse for people who don`t know any better. Half the problem is solved by recognizing the anatomy of oppression, once that is recognized, all that remains is organization of the conscious folk, how to achieve this, when we are outresourced a million to one or more is the difficult task, no amount of ``writing`` can fix that. Therefore claiming that I offer no solutions is mere BS.

Dear Ranjit,
Though I completely agree on your reasons for underdevelopment in our region, you also have to agree that it is the West that scavanged our resources during Colonialism. I am not blaming USA but talking of IPE as an emerging discipline, in which all insruements of policy hit at the same point of impact.
As for masadi, I agree with some but not all his reasons, as he begins in a normative manner and then resigns to the oft repeated theme.
Cheerios

hamid writes <<< so why don`t you let us worry about the power elite here >>>

Your ``power elite`` (who consider dark skinned people like you rubbish by the way, good rubbish bad rubbish what difference does it make) are destroying the world, I will not leave them be. When the solitary toms and dicks and harrys that you cite as ``evidence`` (even though aggregate numbers disprove your claims), start talking like me, only then might I accept the notion that the system of success to the levels of the elite in America is not producing social clones of the near homogenous group that describes the power elite. Now why don`t you leave this discussion to those who have better things to do than sip lattes all day long, being infatuated by the BS of American society...

Re: # 204

masadi,

...... i presume you are out of america (good riddance to bad rubbish), so why don`t you let us worry about the power elite here and you stick to training bombers at the hafsa institute for virgins ......... this kind of conspiracy theory and victimology has a huge market in the madrassa system and i am sure you will be able to get tenure without any trouble .........

.......... and please feel free to welcome tony dungy and lovie smith to the ranks of the power elite ! .......... by the way did you know that magic johnson employs over twenty thousand people - maybe you should have asked him for a job and tried to make an honest living instead of collecting government cheese for all those wasted years ........

........ you are a horrible man and very very scary ........

read ``you like in a world that you did not make and cannot change``

as

you live in a world that you did not make and cannot change

(quote) Domination means that the commands of a group or class are carried out with relatively little resistance, which is possible because that group or class has been able to establish i) customs and ii) rules through which the (everyday) ``Life`` (of a multitude of people) is conducted. Domination in other words is the institutionalized outcome of distributive power...the routinized ways of acting in the US follow from the rules and regulations needed by the corporate community to continue to grow and make profit.`` (end quote)- William Domhoff, ``Who Rules America?``

Three ways in whcih this near homogenous corporate community that is 90-95% white and over 90% male and comprises of predominantly the upper class (regardless of the success of Hamid`s gardener and barber) is through i) structural economic power ii) the state and its convenient two party system that uses this corporate community for policy formulation, in the president`s cabinet and as sources of foundations and think tanks iii) the military that has become fused with the US economy in the form of a permanent war economy. An extension of this setup is how US neo-colonial domination in the International System is carried out.

Now when we are talking about problems of humanity, we are not only talking of bread and butter issues but the very nature of human beings who are being culturally starved, turned into standardized morons by just such domination of the cultural apparatus. Next time you go out on the streets of USA think about what part you had in the society you inhabit, you like in a world that you did not make and cannot change, and that world is leading the vast majority of humanity down the drain, economically and culturally...