Education Reform: Signs of Hope
Pervez Hoodbhoy February 12, 2007
#55 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2007 1:22:06 pm
colonel: writes The fact it that children of senior officers seldom find the courage and gutts to join the service. Mostly they become pseudo intellectuals. Out of all the Army Chief, only one son of General Tikka was a career soldier.
Sorry to break this to you, but only those who do poorly in school/intermediate join the army. It doesnt matter whose children they are. I myself heard the army psychologist at ISSB Kohat where my father was also posted joke about how ``we need people who wont start thinking too much when they have to kill someone, and so we look for people who are not too bright``. Nor was this just one man joking - it is common knowledge. (Even musharraf has publicly said how his mother thought his other brother, the surgeon, was the brighter one in the family).
I am sure you were fed plenty of this ``courage and guts`` soup in the military, so I hate to break this to you. I knew tikka`s son in college. Would appreciate any update on his doings (without breaching his privacy on a public place like chowk of course - just whether he is still serving or retired, and what rank did he finally reach). He was a fine individual, from what I recall, and very proud of his military background.
Sorry to break this to you, but only those who do poorly in school/intermediate join the army. It doesnt matter whose children they are. I myself heard the army psychologist at ISSB Kohat where my father was also posted joke about how ``we need people who wont start thinking too much when they have to kill someone, and so we look for people who are not too bright``. Nor was this just one man joking - it is common knowledge. (Even musharraf has publicly said how his mother thought his other brother, the surgeon, was the brighter one in the family).
I am sure you were fed plenty of this ``courage and guts`` soup in the military, so I hate to break this to you. I knew tikka`s son in college. Would appreciate any update on his doings (without breaching his privacy on a public place like chowk of course - just whether he is still serving or retired, and what rank did he finally reach). He was a fine individual, from what I recall, and very proud of his military background.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#54 Posted by bulleya on February 14, 2007 1:11:45 pm
colonel #49: ``The standard of imparting the academic training in the military institution is comparable to anywhere in the world....``
........this is a huge strech.......there are only two military institutions, in pakistan, whose standard is high enough, where the graduates can compete in the pakistani corporate sector: college of aeronautical engg., army medical college.....one can include some portions of nust, at best, into this (however, nust allows large groups of civilian students, who end up raising the academic standard).....
....however, lt. gens. etc. don`t come from the above institutions.....they come from fighting arms, whose institutions are of quite low standards, in comparison with pakistani private institutions (what to talk of anywhere in the world).....
......let me go down the list of graduates with me from the paf, army and navy.......out of the complete batch of pma cadets parallel to me (hundreds of them), there were only two who had good enough grades to get into an engg university in pakistan.......one of them was a genuis, got a ph.d from usa and has now retired as a major.....the second is now in the engineering corps.......the remaning 99.5% out of pma could not get into any engg. college in pakistan (this includes my good friend who got the sword of honor and is well on his way to becoming a general)..........
.......out of my batchmates in paf flying branch, not a single one had good enough grades to get into any engg college in pakistan.........same was the case in the navy.........
......the only group with me who were intelligent enough to get into pakistani universities and have gotten degrees from abroad were graduates of paf engineering and army medical college........five of my colleagues from paf engg have foreign ph.ds.......quite a few of my batchmates from army medical college are surgeons with foreign qualifications.....
.......however, as you know, these surgeons and engineers will not go onto become lt. gens. (barring the odd doctor in army).......while the graduates of pma and flying etc. will go onto become generals.......they will get distinctions in staff colleges and do m.a in strategic studies..........despite the fact that could not have made the cut into the lower engg university or medical college in pakistan..........
......the minister of education belongs to this later group.........
........this is a huge strech.......there are only two military institutions, in pakistan, whose standard is high enough, where the graduates can compete in the pakistani corporate sector: college of aeronautical engg., army medical college.....one can include some portions of nust, at best, into this (however, nust allows large groups of civilian students, who end up raising the academic standard).....
....however, lt. gens. etc. don`t come from the above institutions.....they come from fighting arms, whose institutions are of quite low standards, in comparison with pakistani private institutions (what to talk of anywhere in the world).....
......let me go down the list of graduates with me from the paf, army and navy.......out of the complete batch of pma cadets parallel to me (hundreds of them), there were only two who had good enough grades to get into an engg university in pakistan.......one of them was a genuis, got a ph.d from usa and has now retired as a major.....the second is now in the engineering corps.......the remaning 99.5% out of pma could not get into any engg. college in pakistan (this includes my good friend who got the sword of honor and is well on his way to becoming a general)..........
.......out of my batchmates in paf flying branch, not a single one had good enough grades to get into any engg college in pakistan.........same was the case in the navy.........
......the only group with me who were intelligent enough to get into pakistani universities and have gotten degrees from abroad were graduates of paf engineering and army medical college........five of my colleagues from paf engg have foreign ph.ds.......quite a few of my batchmates from army medical college are surgeons with foreign qualifications.....
.......however, as you know, these surgeons and engineers will not go onto become lt. gens. (barring the odd doctor in army).......while the graduates of pma and flying etc. will go onto become generals.......they will get distinctions in staff colleges and do m.a in strategic studies..........despite the fact that could not have made the cut into the lower engg university or medical college in pakistan..........
......the minister of education belongs to this later group.........
#53 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2007 1:11:24 pm
#51 The text has nothing to do with the ``dictators business opportunities``. In fact, this is a very positive story of how ordinary people of Pakistan as well as the pm came to the aid of this poor man after he was interviewed by geo news.
#52 Posted by bulleya on February 14, 2007 12:55:58 pm
zeemax #44: ``The Govt defence budget does not fund the AWT or the Dfence Societies. It is funded by deductions from each armyman`s salary while in service and that`s a huge amount.``
......i can tell you have not studied this deep enough......
.....who pays the salaris of the military......it is the taxpayer.......the taxpayer doesn`t pay the salaries of the military personnel, or pay for the equipment and resources of the military, so that the miltiary can set up a trust and run corn flakes and fertilizer companies......he pays it so the military defends the country.......
......if they military has more resources and personnel than it it needs to defend the country, then the resources and personnel should be cut and the money should be used elsewhere (education etc.).....the solution is not to use the excess personnel and their resources and salaries to set up banks etc. owned by the army......
.........suppose i start a scholarship and give a poor student 2 lakh ruppees to study at lums....suppose he takes 1 lakh and starts a paan shop........is that ok?.....after all, i have given him the money.......can he do whatever he wants with it?.......i would say no.......i gave it to him to get a degree.......not to start a business........if he only needs 1 lakh, then he should return the rest, so i can give it to someone else.........
........now, furhter, suppose, his paan shop runs into a loss........should he be able to come back to me and ask for more money, to run his faltering business, which he shouldn`t have set up in the first place..........should i give it to him?.........
.........now suppose, his paan shop goes into a profit......considering the fact that he was using my money, shouldn`t i own the paan shop and get the profits and then just pay him a simple salary.......shouldn`t i be the owner of the paan shop and make all the decisions........or should he run it and own it and do with the profits what he wants.........
..........this is how the military industry works.........who is paying the salaries which are going into the welfare trusts.........it is the taxpayers.........which resources are being used to run these industires...........army resources paid for by the taxpayers.......whose is baring the brunt if the industries go in a loss........the taxpayer.........
......but who gets to run the industries and take the profits........the army!!
........if the army retired officers want to pool money and run companies, they should do what every civilian and businessman does.......they should pool their money, form a private corporation, become directors of the corporation......that corporation should have absolutely nothing to do with the military or the govt......it should have no access to military or govt. funds, resources, manpower, management, influence, etc.........it should be a 100% private corporation run and funded by the savings of retired military officers......
.....then they can do whatever they want........they make profit and they bare the loss, and they get no unfair advantage due to support by govt. or by army......and most of all they use only their own money..........
.....have you ever wondered why retired military officers don`t do that?.......how in the world are they running gigantic corporations, which are now the largest industrial conglomerate in pakistan, but cannot even run an internet cafe on their own, with their own money, without the help of the army?........why do they want to utilize their savings, through the army`s machine and not as private corporations?
think about it.........
......i can tell you have not studied this deep enough......
.....who pays the salaris of the military......it is the taxpayer.......the taxpayer doesn`t pay the salaries of the military personnel, or pay for the equipment and resources of the military, so that the miltiary can set up a trust and run corn flakes and fertilizer companies......he pays it so the military defends the country.......
......if they military has more resources and personnel than it it needs to defend the country, then the resources and personnel should be cut and the money should be used elsewhere (education etc.).....the solution is not to use the excess personnel and their resources and salaries to set up banks etc. owned by the army......
.........suppose i start a scholarship and give a poor student 2 lakh ruppees to study at lums....suppose he takes 1 lakh and starts a paan shop........is that ok?.....after all, i have given him the money.......can he do whatever he wants with it?.......i would say no.......i gave it to him to get a degree.......not to start a business........if he only needs 1 lakh, then he should return the rest, so i can give it to someone else.........
........now, furhter, suppose, his paan shop runs into a loss........should he be able to come back to me and ask for more money, to run his faltering business, which he shouldn`t have set up in the first place..........should i give it to him?.........
.........now suppose, his paan shop goes into a profit......considering the fact that he was using my money, shouldn`t i own the paan shop and get the profits and then just pay him a simple salary.......shouldn`t i be the owner of the paan shop and make all the decisions........or should he run it and own it and do with the profits what he wants.........
..........this is how the military industry works.........who is paying the salaries which are going into the welfare trusts.........it is the taxpayers.........which resources are being used to run these industires...........army resources paid for by the taxpayers.......whose is baring the brunt if the industries go in a loss........the taxpayer.........
......but who gets to run the industries and take the profits........the army!!
........if the army retired officers want to pool money and run companies, they should do what every civilian and businessman does.......they should pool their money, form a private corporation, become directors of the corporation......that corporation should have absolutely nothing to do with the military or the govt......it should have no access to military or govt. funds, resources, manpower, management, influence, etc.........it should be a 100% private corporation run and funded by the savings of retired military officers......
.....then they can do whatever they want........they make profit and they bare the loss, and they get no unfair advantage due to support by govt. or by army......and most of all they use only their own money..........
.....have you ever wondered why retired military officers don`t do that?.......how in the world are they running gigantic corporations, which are now the largest industrial conglomerate in pakistan, but cannot even run an internet cafe on their own, with their own money, without the help of the army?........why do they want to utilize their savings, through the army`s machine and not as private corporations?
think about it.........
#51 Posted by Urstruly on February 14, 2007 12:54:33 pm
The Dictator himself prospects new opportunities of business for Pakistan Army:
#50 Posted by bulleya on February 14, 2007 12:40:02 pm
zeemax#various: ``the Army failed in the cement business. The Govt had to bail them out. The Army Welfare Trust almost went bankrupt in the cereal business, as well as the Airforce Shaheen foundation had to sell its airline.....``
.....there are very few things the military has run in a profit......all these are owned by four major entities: army welfare trust, fauji foundation, bahria and shaheen foundation......if most of the industries they own are going under, how are they surviving, and keeping everything running.......obviously the taxpayer is bailing them out.......one cannot justify a whole conglomerate`s existence, if nine out of ten businesses it is running are going under and only one is making a profit.........
``On the other hand, AWT succeeded in consumer banking.``
...this is not entirely true.........why should the military own a bank?........the head of askari bank is a serving lt. gen..........that is a conflict of interest right there........the amount of money the army has access to will make any bank successful..........
.....there are very few things the military has run in a profit......all these are owned by four major entities: army welfare trust, fauji foundation, bahria and shaheen foundation......if most of the industries they own are going under, how are they surviving, and keeping everything running.......obviously the taxpayer is bailing them out.......one cannot justify a whole conglomerate`s existence, if nine out of ten businesses it is running are going under and only one is making a profit.........
``On the other hand, AWT succeeded in consumer banking.``
...this is not entirely true.........why should the military own a bank?........the head of askari bank is a serving lt. gen..........that is a conflict of interest right there........the amount of money the army has access to will make any bank successful..........
#49 Posted by colonel on February 14, 2007 12:37:03 pm
Re: #25 bulleya, # 26 teshah & #29 hamidm2
Its an intersting situation. The three gentlmen have lot in common. They are scions of the Army. Hamidm2 and Teshah take great pride in being descendents of soldiers (perhaps mercenary would be more suitable) in british indian army. Bulleya has briefly served in the military. I wonder he was shown the way out or could not bear the rigors of service.
HAMIDM2 writes ``I grew up on csd rations and also had the misfortune to drink water from the spring at ilyasi masjid - so i know a thing or two about the incompetent kernels and jurnals``
I must say the waters of Ilyasi mosque lacked potency that someone raised on the rations of CSD could breed deep hate for anything khaki. While the service in military is most fulfilling, it has its down side. A good number of the children of officers are throughly spoiled. The fathers never get time from their official commitments and thus pay a heavy price.
``i can pull my father`s rank on you !........ he had a two digit PA number and served in a real army under real generals like wavell and auchinleck``
Was your father a JerNull ? I wonder! The fact it that children of senior officers seldom find the courage and gutts to join the service. Mostly they become pseudo intellectuals. Out of all the Army Chief, only one son of General Tikka was a career soldier. Few others who did enter the service, left it with 3-4 years. The sons of officers dont think of themselves any less than the rank of their father, and for them to start any lower would be accelrated demotion. As far as lack of competence in the Jernuls and Kernuls is concerned, I agree with Hamidm2. The lot of officers , around whom he was raised ( the british indian soldiers) were a different creed. The debacles of 1948, 1965, 1971 could directly be attributed to their incompetence. These guys were given commission mostly in non-fighting arms like ASC and Ordnance by the Gora GOC`s after a 1 1/2 minutes interview while standing in a line and on simple recommendatins of their gora commanding officers (to whom some of them were serving as batmen). After the partition the few muslim officers who belonged to the territories of Pakistan and opted for Pak Army were awarded rapid promotions due to sever shortage and in absence of any competetion. It is only in the last 10-15 years that the Army has finaly come out of the shadow of its colonial past and mentality.
BULLEYA writes ``the easiest way to judge the merit of an individual is to take away all their govt. ranks and titles and then see how valuable they are in the open market``
For your information around 300-400 officers retire every year at an average age of 45.5 years. Only around 10-15% are re-employed in Government Jobs. The rest seek adjustment in other sectors and make decent living in business and private jobs.
``and having hung around people with the qualifications you have mentioned, and then having had a chance to hang around and study with cilvilians in other fields, i think i can say with quite a bit of authority that military qualifications - specifically the ones you have mentioned - are not of much use outside the military``
Well, I have attended some of these courses myself while in service. I worked in the civil for a couple of years after I got retirement from the military with 25 years service at age 45. Made a move and did masters from a good Unversity in US. Moved back to Pakistan, worked there for a year in management position. Moved to US again and for the last 8 years wroking in corporate sector. I consider myself well qualified to compare the education in the military with the education in the civil. A good part of curriculum of Training at all levels in the military is personnel and office management and that is equaly applicable to civil and military. The standard of imparting the academic training in the military institution is comparable to anywhere in the world.
TESHAH writes ``On personal exlanation I would say that I am a son of a fouji, an honoured one by the British, and have all praise for what Qazi Javed is doing but what that son of Zia is doing will, I am afraid, undo all his efforts``
The son of Zia; I can not agree with you any more ; the lesser said on the sons, the better.
Its an intersting situation. The three gentlmen have lot in common. They are scions of the Army. Hamidm2 and Teshah take great pride in being descendents of soldiers (perhaps mercenary would be more suitable) in british indian army. Bulleya has briefly served in the military. I wonder he was shown the way out or could not bear the rigors of service.
HAMIDM2 writes ``I grew up on csd rations and also had the misfortune to drink water from the spring at ilyasi masjid - so i know a thing or two about the incompetent kernels and jurnals``
I must say the waters of Ilyasi mosque lacked potency that someone raised on the rations of CSD could breed deep hate for anything khaki. While the service in military is most fulfilling, it has its down side. A good number of the children of officers are throughly spoiled. The fathers never get time from their official commitments and thus pay a heavy price.
``i can pull my father`s rank on you !........ he had a two digit PA number and served in a real army under real generals like wavell and auchinleck``
Was your father a JerNull ? I wonder! The fact it that children of senior officers seldom find the courage and gutts to join the service. Mostly they become pseudo intellectuals. Out of all the Army Chief, only one son of General Tikka was a career soldier. Few others who did enter the service, left it with 3-4 years. The sons of officers dont think of themselves any less than the rank of their father, and for them to start any lower would be accelrated demotion. As far as lack of competence in the Jernuls and Kernuls is concerned, I agree with Hamidm2. The lot of officers , around whom he was raised ( the british indian soldiers) were a different creed. The debacles of 1948, 1965, 1971 could directly be attributed to their incompetence. These guys were given commission mostly in non-fighting arms like ASC and Ordnance by the Gora GOC`s after a 1 1/2 minutes interview while standing in a line and on simple recommendatins of their gora commanding officers (to whom some of them were serving as batmen). After the partition the few muslim officers who belonged to the territories of Pakistan and opted for Pak Army were awarded rapid promotions due to sever shortage and in absence of any competetion. It is only in the last 10-15 years that the Army has finaly come out of the shadow of its colonial past and mentality.
BULLEYA writes ``the easiest way to judge the merit of an individual is to take away all their govt. ranks and titles and then see how valuable they are in the open market``
For your information around 300-400 officers retire every year at an average age of 45.5 years. Only around 10-15% are re-employed in Government Jobs. The rest seek adjustment in other sectors and make decent living in business and private jobs.
``and having hung around people with the qualifications you have mentioned, and then having had a chance to hang around and study with cilvilians in other fields, i think i can say with quite a bit of authority that military qualifications - specifically the ones you have mentioned - are not of much use outside the military``
Well, I have attended some of these courses myself while in service. I worked in the civil for a couple of years after I got retirement from the military with 25 years service at age 45. Made a move and did masters from a good Unversity in US. Moved back to Pakistan, worked there for a year in management position. Moved to US again and for the last 8 years wroking in corporate sector. I consider myself well qualified to compare the education in the military with the education in the civil. A good part of curriculum of Training at all levels in the military is personnel and office management and that is equaly applicable to civil and military. The standard of imparting the academic training in the military institution is comparable to anywhere in the world.
TESHAH writes ``On personal exlanation I would say that I am a son of a fouji, an honoured one by the British, and have all praise for what Qazi Javed is doing but what that son of Zia is doing will, I am afraid, undo all his efforts``
The son of Zia; I can not agree with you any more ; the lesser said on the sons, the better.
#48 Posted by zeemax on February 14, 2007 12:14:25 pm
.....and now please don`t you tell me why military trust does not make low-cost housing for the poor .. that would be commie nonsense for you elites ... wouldn`t it?
Nawaz Sharif tried to do that ... but you guys don`t like NS either ... do you? ZAB did it, but you hanged him ... didn`t you?
And I`m talking about guys like Faruk and Bulleya and SR ...
So what do you all want anyway? Have your cake and eat it too?
Nawaz Sharif tried to do that ... but you guys don`t like NS either ... do you? ZAB did it, but you hanged him ... didn`t you?
And I`m talking about guys like Faruk and Bulleya and SR ...
So what do you all want anyway? Have your cake and eat it too?
#47 Posted by zeemax on February 14, 2007 12:09:34 pm
#45 by Faruk
This is unwarranted prejudice if you look at the facts. There`s nothing wrong with public sevtor welfare trusts running large industries. They do it with their own money ... win or lose!
This is unwarranted prejudice if you look at the facts. There`s nothing wrong with public sevtor welfare trusts running large industries. They do it with their own money ... win or lose!
#46 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2007 12:06:08 pm
#45 maybe. But the bottom line is: Pakistan with army rule is still better than India with civilian rule.
#45 Posted by Faruk on February 14, 2007 11:26:55 am
Re: Zeemax # 39
Great post!
I have said this before “Other counties have an Army, Pakistani Army has a Country”
The army lets these civilians live in the country and they have the audacity to complain. Then there is romair making a case for civilians running business and even the govt. The god dam civilians can`t even march!
Regards,
Faruk
Great post!
I have said this before “Other counties have an Army, Pakistani Army has a Country”
The army lets these civilians live in the country and they have the audacity to complain. Then there is romair making a case for civilians running business and even the govt. The god dam civilians can`t even march!
Regards,
Faruk
#44 Posted by zeemax on February 14, 2007 11:26:40 am
....contd....#43
... the population funds the army`s industrial ventures..
I just saw that so I must address it. The Govt defence budget does not fund the AWT or the Dfence Societies. It is funded by deductions from each armyman`s salary while in service and that`s a huge amount.
... the population funds the army`s industrial ventures..
I just saw that so I must address it. The Govt defence budget does not fund the AWT or the Dfence Societies. It is funded by deductions from each armyman`s salary while in service and that`s a huge amount.
#43 Posted by zeemax on February 14, 2007 11:20:08 am
#42 by bulleya
No. No .. Bulleya .. the Army failed in the cement business. The Govt had to bail them out. The Army Welfare Trust almost went bankrupt in the cereal business, as well as the Airforce Shaheen foundation had to sell its airline. Don`t even mention the Bahria Foundation of the Navy which is totally bankrupt. On the other hand, AWT succeeded in consumer banking. You can`t put all in the same basket. Ther`re some things they`re good at, bad in others.
Land development is something which they`re really good at. So what`s your beef with a welfare trust making money for their retirees and at the same time providing huge profit making opportunities to civilians as well as standard housing?
If you owned a 500 yard plot in phase 6 in Defence Karachi, or 1,000 yards in Phase 8, you would be a miltiple crorepati ... and not some serving or retired army major who had sold it long ago for 8 lakhs ...
No. No .. Bulleya .. the Army failed in the cement business. The Govt had to bail them out. The Army Welfare Trust almost went bankrupt in the cereal business, as well as the Airforce Shaheen foundation had to sell its airline. Don`t even mention the Bahria Foundation of the Navy which is totally bankrupt. On the other hand, AWT succeeded in consumer banking. You can`t put all in the same basket. Ther`re some things they`re good at, bad in others.
Land development is something which they`re really good at. So what`s your beef with a welfare trust making money for their retirees and at the same time providing huge profit making opportunities to civilians as well as standard housing?
If you owned a 500 yard plot in phase 6 in Defence Karachi, or 1,000 yards in Phase 8, you would be a miltiple crorepati ... and not some serving or retired army major who had sold it long ago for 8 lakhs ...
#42 Posted by bulleya on February 14, 2007 11:02:23 am
zeemax #39: ``The Army has a welfare foundation for it`s retired officers. They went into land development. Correct? Either they would have done it or some Bahria society of Malik Riaz would have done it....``
...if this is the best way to run an economy and a society, then i think everything should be handed over to the army in pakistan.....why should i go an start a software company in pakistan.........the army has askari computers.......the govt. should fund it and let it take over all IT operations in the country.........
......in fact, every country in the world should just let its army run the economy......i wonder why other countries don`t do that?.....
.......the pakistan army is the biggest industrial conglomerate in pakistan now....one has to think long and hard to name some other countries where this is the case.........there are countries where the govt. is the largest industrial conglomerate, but not the army......
........the army becoming the biggest industrial conglomerate in pakistan results in the worst of socialism and capitalism.........basically the army is funded by the tax payers money, through the govt.......it is owned by the people of pakistan and the govt. of pakistan.........hence any business venture it gets into, is being funded by the taxpayers money, be it through the welfare trust or fauji foundation........
........traditionally, state run ventures tend to be quite inefficient......which is why nearly all of the army run private ventures are quite inefficient.........believe me, the military itself is run quite inefficiently........so how can the same people run private ventures efficiently.......the reason they survive is because they have the guarantee of enormous state funds available to them.....obviously the army is not going to go bankrupt, regardless of how poorly it utilizes its funds........neither will fauji foundation.......
........this leads to the normal inefficiences of govt. owned industry.........however, there is an added twist......in normal state owned enterprises, everyone has access to the profits and to the industry..........since it is the people`s money, they get the rewards.......as they have to bare the losses.......
........in case of army run enterprises, the profits don`t go to the whole country........they only go to a small group of people, i.e. the army.....specifically the higher ranks......so basically, army run industries are funded by the tax payers, who have to bear all the losses, however the profits go to an small group of people, the army......
this also discourages other people from getting into industries where the army is involved.......when i was looking for funding for my company, someone got me in touch with the army welfare people.......they have gigantic amounts of money to invest.......now how in the world could i compete with a software company started by the army.......it would have access to all the state`s resources, it would have access to all the military contracts, it would have access to enormous amounts of manpower etc........
........since all of this is being funded by the people of pakistan, so in a socialist system i should have acces to it also.......as should every pakistani.........however, the army has hogged it up.........would they general running army welfare trust, which contains every taxpayers money (as it is the taxpayers who pay the salaries of army officers) give loans to me or to his own relatives and retired officers?........
......if somehow every pakistani citizen had equal access to everything done by fauji foundation and army welfare and the military itself, one could make an argument that these are national industries, in which army officers are simply running the show.......not making a profit or owning the profit..........
however, the military officers are getting the best of both worlds......the population funds the army`s industrial ventures and bears the losses...yet the profits and cushy jobs etc. are all going to the army......
..not a bad set up, if you ask me.......
in case of bahria town etc., the state isn`t funding the project and the state won`t bear th losses..........give me a the backing of a gigantic pool of funding and resources like the army has, and i`ll set up a software company in pakistan, which will buy out every other company in the country........regardless of how inefficiently i ran it.........and my company would never go bankrupt........the poor pakistani taxpayers would have to bear all the losses i had, without any access to the profits i made........at best i could allow them access to buying shares in my company (which is basically another way for me to generate more funding from the taxpayers)........
...if this is the best way to run an economy and a society, then i think everything should be handed over to the army in pakistan.....why should i go an start a software company in pakistan.........the army has askari computers.......the govt. should fund it and let it take over all IT operations in the country.........
......in fact, every country in the world should just let its army run the economy......i wonder why other countries don`t do that?.....
.......the pakistan army is the biggest industrial conglomerate in pakistan now....one has to think long and hard to name some other countries where this is the case.........there are countries where the govt. is the largest industrial conglomerate, but not the army......
........the army becoming the biggest industrial conglomerate in pakistan results in the worst of socialism and capitalism.........basically the army is funded by the tax payers money, through the govt.......it is owned by the people of pakistan and the govt. of pakistan.........hence any business venture it gets into, is being funded by the taxpayers money, be it through the welfare trust or fauji foundation........
........traditionally, state run ventures tend to be quite inefficient......which is why nearly all of the army run private ventures are quite inefficient.........believe me, the military itself is run quite inefficiently........so how can the same people run private ventures efficiently.......the reason they survive is because they have the guarantee of enormous state funds available to them.....obviously the army is not going to go bankrupt, regardless of how poorly it utilizes its funds........neither will fauji foundation.......
........this leads to the normal inefficiences of govt. owned industry.........however, there is an added twist......in normal state owned enterprises, everyone has access to the profits and to the industry..........since it is the people`s money, they get the rewards.......as they have to bare the losses.......
........in case of army run enterprises, the profits don`t go to the whole country........they only go to a small group of people, i.e. the army.....specifically the higher ranks......so basically, army run industries are funded by the tax payers, who have to bear all the losses, however the profits go to an small group of people, the army......
this also discourages other people from getting into industries where the army is involved.......when i was looking for funding for my company, someone got me in touch with the army welfare people.......they have gigantic amounts of money to invest.......now how in the world could i compete with a software company started by the army.......it would have access to all the state`s resources, it would have access to all the military contracts, it would have access to enormous amounts of manpower etc........
........since all of this is being funded by the people of pakistan, so in a socialist system i should have acces to it also.......as should every pakistani.........however, the army has hogged it up.........would they general running army welfare trust, which contains every taxpayers money (as it is the taxpayers who pay the salaries of army officers) give loans to me or to his own relatives and retired officers?........
......if somehow every pakistani citizen had equal access to everything done by fauji foundation and army welfare and the military itself, one could make an argument that these are national industries, in which army officers are simply running the show.......not making a profit or owning the profit..........
however, the military officers are getting the best of both worlds......the population funds the army`s industrial ventures and bears the losses...yet the profits and cushy jobs etc. are all going to the army......
..not a bad set up, if you ask me.......
in case of bahria town etc., the state isn`t funding the project and the state won`t bear th losses..........give me a the backing of a gigantic pool of funding and resources like the army has, and i`ll set up a software company in pakistan, which will buy out every other company in the country........regardless of how inefficiently i ran it.........and my company would never go bankrupt........the poor pakistani taxpayers would have to bear all the losses i had, without any access to the profits i made........at best i could allow them access to buying shares in my company (which is basically another way for me to generate more funding from the taxpayers)........
#41 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2007 10:19:41 am
further to #40 and lets not blame generals only. the entire society is largely jahil - including newly rich pakistani doctors in the US, e.g., who cant talk of anything but their wealth and so on. Newly rich who cant spend enough on weddings (and the rest of the south asians are worse - i saw a wedding announcement in the WP of a sri lankan couple getting married - the bastards had purchased 5 times the space of a standard wedding announcement, and gone on to announce that they had 300 ``close family and friends`` at the wedding!)
Nothing stinks more than new-found wealth.
I am generalizing of course, and having ranted on chowk, must go out and shovel the snow. :-(
Nothing stinks more than new-found wealth.
I am generalizing of course, and having ranted on chowk, must go out and shovel the snow. :-(
#40 Posted by tahmed32 on February 14, 2007 10:13:43 am
#37 hamidm: true. but then....this loot, pillage and plunder has been the concept of the military profession in jahil societies from time immemorial. Our jahil ``generals`` just need a bit more time before they understand this, that`s all. ;-)
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- tahmed32: #201 majumdar: rabia was... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- tahmed32: majumdar bhai: "force, fraud"... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- majumdar: Tahmed sahib, though, that God... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- majumdar: Kaal bhai, MAJ (pbuh) died... Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattak:
- tahmed32: #196 hamidm: how many... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: Majumdar dada, as I... Muhammad Aslam Khan Khattak:
- tahmed32: #197 rabiawasti: i am... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- majumdar: Tahmed sahib, Sir, I will... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
