Why Have This Train At All?

Sanatani,

I have a special request that I hope you will honor. Please don`t provide ammunition and pretexts to our own hate-mongers, bigots, and racists like Tahmed32 and Urstruly. While you are definitely entitled to your extreme viewpoints, what you don`t realize is that these charlatans use your rhetoric to justify their own agenda. Thanks.

#295 Chacha Buttees,
Please refrain from personal attacks and using other people`s names to do your own dirty work. My charge of bigotry against you is based on facts - your persistent and numerous posts arguing for not allowing the repatriation of Muslim Pakistanis stranded in Bangladesh since 1971. You conveniently lump all of these poor people as ``Biharis,`` as if that piece of bigotry will mask your Paki Punju Paindoo hypocrisy. The only filth around here is your hypocrisy in lamenting, with crocodile tears, the loss of Urdu-speakers in the Samjhota Express terrorist attack. While you ``grieve`` for these Urdu-speakers you deny the basic human right of repatriation to hundreds of thousands of Urdu-speaking Pakistanis in BD. Shame on you and your kind.

#293 for a lowlife who has been routinely banned on chowk for harassing women with your filth (let alone given the ``chhitar parade`` by Stuka recently when he decided to waste some time with you), it is quite consistent for you to be a liar as well when you refer to others as ``bigots``.

#281 anil {``Don`t you think Islam will loose its identity, and would be no different than say Buddhism?
Also, who can lead the charge for such changes in Islam?``}

Anil Bhai,
Yes, Islam will lose its identity as a monolithic, violent, power-hungry, and oppressive force. In my opinion this image is largely the result of those who formed the Islamic state in Median after the departure of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Much of the literature and holy books were designed to serve the power interests of the ruling Omayyads and Abbasids. To me the most attractive aspect of Islam is the direct relationship between each human being and the Creator - there are no priesthood, no religious hierarchy, and no intermediaries. Can Islam shed the Mullah without losing its identity? Absolutely - the Mullah is a self-styled usurper of perceived knowledge and dubious piety.

Who will lead the charge for such changes? Hopefully, the new converts in the West and elsewhere, who ``discover`` Islam on their own and have a more empirical understanding of the philosophy. Also, I hold out hope for the inspired native Muslims, who can see through the political ambitions and rhetoric of the extremist leaders. To be honest, we don`t even need mosques to be Muslims - and if we can do away with beautiful mosques, we certainly don`t need the hideous Mullahs.

#282 Muhiyal {``I grew up as a Hindu in Pakistan and can assure you that most Pakistanis are nowhere close to the urstruly or tahmed types. ``}

Muhiyal, my friend,
Thank you for posting that reassuring message about the sentiments of most Pakistanis. In the defense of bigots like Urstruly and Tahmed, let me just say that their prejudice is also extended to Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakistanis. They are simply Pakistani Punjabi racists who try to mask their bigotry under the guise of nationalism or religious extremism. Urstruly dilutes his racist supremacy with extreme Sunni Wahabbi rhetoric. Tahmed is a bit more hypocritical and uses a blend of interfaith jargon, crocodile tears, and human rights lip service - all the while insisting that poor stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh cannot be repatriated to Pakistan. He uses the keyword ``Bihari`` to lump all Urdu-speakers as the objects of his prejudice.

While I can`t speak for the rest of Pakistan, having grown up in Karachi, I can attest to the fact that the Pakistanis in that city have a much more tolerant and cordial perspective toward people of other faiths. I don`t recall any incidents of bigotry against the numerous Christians in Karachi or the few, but not enough, Hindus and Parsis living there. Yes, there is some hatred for Pakistani Punjabis, but even that is limited to the Paindoo Rangers, who behaved very badly during their occupation of that city. People in Karachi do not extend that hatred to the Punjabis who live in Karachi and who, for the most part, speak Urdu and get along very well with others. The violence related to MQM vs JI or the repeated attempts to stir up Shia/Sunni sectarian strife are largely the work of government-inspired divide and rule machinations.

Re: 286 Sanatani

No Sir, I am all for punishing zealots in the same cruel ways they do on innocent victims. During our Pakistan days I have myself lost an uncle to the sort. With the same irony as your gloating over the train victims, he was the one in the family most emphasizing the virtues of not running down anyone else’s faith. So please don’t tell me anything about lack of sympathy or the discrimination embedded in Pakistani laws. And no, I am not rooting for the Parthab sort either. Even when living in a sea of islam we were most proud of being Hindus and refused to see ourselves through the filters of some others. The big thing I disagree with you on is how you demarcate the border between “us” and “them”. The right “them” is only religion inspired zealots not every Muslim. I know far too many nice and admirable people who happen to be born into Islam to be able to hate them all.

#287

Good article full of homely truths. The one comment I would make is that the indian goverment has had no problem collaborating with fanatics from any religion. Whether it was Bhidranwale in the 70s or the Shahabuddin in the 80s or the Babri-masjid destroying kar sevaks in the 90s, our goverment has often said one thing in public and another in private. So that also needs to be stated clearly - fanaticism isn`t restricted to muslims and the indian goverment has a history of pandering to all religions (is that a definition of indian secularism:-).

Islamic exceptionalism and self-absorption is definitely a real challenge. The belief that there is ``one god, one people, one book`` is a certain kind of cult-like thinking and is problematic in the modern world. What is really horrific is that this is being supported with billions from Saudi Arabia and there is little protest against it, especially not from religous muslims.

Some of the hindutva stuff has a similar flavor. If you look at the Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal, their beliefs are also fanatical. It doesnt matter that they dont believe in ``one book, one god`` kind of nonsense, their brand of nonsense is also quite dangerous. Some kind of localism or nativism is found throughout the world, but when it crosses limits it becomes true extremism. It is another matter that these groups do not have the 10s of billions of dollars in funding that our Saudi friends have.

#289 above is from cnn-ibn website.

The link is
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/02_2007/samjhautas-unknown-dead-buried-in-haryana-village-34380.html

AN INDIAN FAREWELL: People at the mass burial of blast victims in Meharana.


Meharana, Haryana: Abdul Hamid had no idea for whom he was digging the seven-foot-long grave, but as he took out an unidentified body from the coffin and lay it to rest inside the trench in the local graveyard here, tears rolled down his cheeks. ``We all are his brothers... Allah bless his soul.``

Twenty-three unidentified bodies of the February 18 Samjhauta Express blast victims were buried here amid ``Allah Ho Akbar`` chants. Over 500 people, including Haryana Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda, offered floral tributes to these ``unknown persons`` here on Saturday, six days after they were killed abroad the Delhi-Attari express near Panipat.

``We are born from earth and finally rest there only. They may be Pakistanis or Indians but what is shocking is they were killed for no reason,`` said Maulana Asghar Qasmi, while pouring soil on one of the graves.

``Since they (victims) don`t have any relatives, we are all doing this as brothers. They were charred so badly that no one can recognise them, but Allah will do justice,`` said Qasmi.

Like Qasmi, there were hundreds of others who were not related to the victims or their families but were present at the graveyard to express their grief and as fellow humans. Asha Sharma, who was there too, was in tears. ``Why do they kill innocent people? Don`t they have any respect for life,`` she asked.

Covered in white shrouds, the bodies were brought in wooden coffins. Before the bodies were taken out of the coffins, Hooda and officials from the Pakistan High Commission laid wreaths on the wooden boxes, showered rose petals and stood in silence for a few minutes as Muslim clerics offered namaz. ``We pray for every single victim and feel extremely sad for their family members,`` the chief minister said.

``Hindu, Musalman, Sikh, Isai, hum sab hain bhai, bhai (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, we are all brothers),`` said an emotional Mohammad Unus.

Unus and 70 other people were busy digging the graves since early Saturday. ``All of us were crying since morning. I have never seen so many people buried at one place at one time. It`s pure destiny and may Allah bless all,`` he said, pouring the earth over grave No. 2.

Abidi Arif Nomani, a Pakistani national, was in tears too. ``People from both countries are with them (victims) and Allah will give justice to these innocent souls.``

Nomani was in India for business purposes and reached the burial ground to express grief over the tragedy.

On Februar 18, two coaches of the 4001 Delhi-Attari Express were detonated minutes before midnight by terrorists, killing 68 people and injuring 50.

#287 macaca sanatani: you started with gloating over the deaths of those train passengers. now i see you whining about fanatics. This is what happens when you overdose on your pills.

Re: # 281

Anil when you are starring in Salim Javed`s Dhimmi No.1. Meanwhile food for thought:

Fanatics demand, we concede

Kanchan Gupta

Flipping through a recent issue of Time, I came across an interview with Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Imre Kertesz, better known for his novels Fatelessness, Kaddish for a Child Not Born and Liquidation. During the course of the interview, Kertesz, with touching humility, makes two interesting points which are, in many ways, inter-linked. In response to a question, he says, ``It is not always worthwhile to compromise.``

Later, answering another question, he is more lucid: ``There has been a struggle between the negative and the positive, and we are deep in this fight at the moment. The real fight will not be between nations, but a struggle between fanaticism and democracy. Terrorists do not have a common list of demands on which to base negotiations. Fanatical hatred has taken over the world and this phenomenon conflicts with rational politics that is accustomed to negotiation and compromise.``

My immediate reaction to such profound observation was to try and figure out how to reconcile the two points - if it is ``not always worthwhile to compromise``, then why should we be besotted with ``rational politics that is accustomed to negotiation and compromise``? That apart, it`s difficult to quibble over his comment that ``fanatical hatred has taken over the world``. Kertesz carefully avoids attaching any label to this fanaticism, but since I am not known for being politically correct, I have no hesitation in elaborating on this point. Much of the fanaticism that we witness today originates from a fundamentalist reading and practice of Islam that makes individuals intolerant and repudiate democracy and secularism.

Strangely, while the practitioners of Islamic fundamentalism insist it is their right to be fanatical about their faith, they are unwilling to allow those who subscribe to other faiths similar fanaticism. I recall getting into an argument with the venerable editor of an Arabic magazine, published from Cairo, over lunch at India House while the Ambassador looked increasingly alarmed. The editor, an accomplished man who had spent the better part of his life in Paris and was no fire-breathing Islamist zealot, was remarkably passionate in his defence of Islamic fundamentalism and fundamentalists. ``We don`t just believe in Islam, we practice it. And only when we practice the fundamentals of Islam can we claim to be good Muslims. If those fundamentals make us fundamentalists, so be it. And if those fundamentals militate against what others believe in, it is the others who must compromise on their beliefs and accommodate our fundamentalism,`` he said, his voice, stridently shrill, rising with each sentence. My post-lunch notes also refer to some other points made by him, but they are not really germane to the issue.

If Islamic fundamentalism is justified, then so is Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism and Hindu fundamentalism, I suggested to him, half in jest, mindful that it was an official lunch. ``No. No other religion demands of its followers to be fundamentalists. They can`t just decide to be fanatical about their faith. Fundamentalism of any other variety is wrong and unacceptable,`` he asserted. In brief, in the cloistered world of fundamentalist Islam, everything else is wrong, including legitimate criticism of Islamic fanaticism that rejects rational, secular politics but expects accommodation and compromise, both on its terms.

Seen from the perspective of those who subscribe to - and defend - fundamentalist Islam and the fanaticism that it breeds, it is perfectly alright to use textbooks in schools that denigrate other faiths. Hence, King Fahad Academy in London uses books that teach Muslim children Jews are ``repugnant`` and Christians are ``pigs``. Hindus, being `pagans`, do not merit mention in such texts, thank god for small mercies. Hence also the demand that hate speech laws should not apply to Muslims because it is their religious duty to denigrate others, but others do not have the right to either protest against such denigration or question the basis of this presumed right of the fanatics.

It is not only liberal democratic Governments in the West who are being alarmingly discomfited by the clamourous assertion of the fanatics` right to be obnoxiously hurtful in thought and deed, but also regimes that rule Arabic and Muslim-majority states which dot the map of Arabia and beyond. King Abdullah would be delighted to see fanatics chased out of Saudi Arabia, if not lined up and beheaded in public squares. President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stepped up his fight against the Muslim Brotherhood, the progenitor of Islamism and Islamic fanaticism. Jordan`s King Abdullah II rules with an iron fist and disallows even a squeak that smells of Islamism. In the Maghreb, rulers refuse to acknowledge the very presence of fanatical Islam. In the lesser states of Arabia, calculated emphasis on generating wealth and using it for development has kept Islamists in check. But in countries like Pakistan, as also African states where Islam is the predominant religion, fanatics need not fear either Government or society. In Iran, fanaticism rules.

President Pervez Musharraf, talking to the BBC, admitted that ``Islamic fanatics have the potential to destroy Pakistan`` and described their rising political strength as a ``nightmare``. What he did not admit, however, was his utter failure to check the growth of Islamism or political Islam which flows from fanaticism. For all his bluff and bluster and his claimed emphasis on ``enlightened moderation``, Gen Musharraf has singularly failed in confronting fanatics. Instead, he has repeatedly sought negotiation and compromise, falling back on what Kertesz describes as ``rational politics`` to deal with irrational demands, often with comical results. The pistol-packing, fatigues-wearing General beat a hasty retreat when confronted with burqa-clad, AK-56-wielding women who ostensibly study theology at Hafsa Madarsa near Islamabad. They stood guard over an illegally constructed `library` which the municipal authorities wanted to demolish. In the end, the authorities had to not only back off, but also promise to rebuild demolished mosques that had been illegally constructed on Government land.

As for our secular democracy, fanatics have always had their way with the Government of the day. Not only has the Government of India repeatedly caved in before fanatics, it has willingly offered to accommodate their absurd and illegitimate demands to buy peace. So we have a situation where Islamic banking is being talked of as a secular necessity and Islamisation of the economy as a precondition for India`s development. Where`s the conflict?

Re: # 282

Muhiyal,

If Islam has to be defeated then it has to be by fighting Islam and then mUslims by thinking like and dealing with them just as they deal with you, no remorse and no pity.

And yes my people have died and they have rejoiced so we must return the favour to them.

How about thinking of the pagans o Sudan or the Hindus and Buddhists of Bangladesh while you wax such noble sentiments. What of those HIndu families whose women folk are abducted by Muslims (mind you friends of the family) and married of at age 13 in Pakistan?

App kiss mitti ke bane hain, who has tears for the opressors misfortune not of the oppressed.

Sanatani

Re: # 275
``Similarly, Islam began under the oppression and persecution of the Meccans and for some reason, never let go of the philosophy long after the subjugation of the Meccans``,

What oppression of the Meccans the peadophile f**kr was abusing their gods and they got angry and they chased him out.

WHyyyyy? did they not utilise Wajib ul Qatl against him the world would have been a better place.

And what was wrong with the Crusades, all of Christian North Africa and Arabia had been put to the sword and either killed converted or expelled or made into Dhimmis and the mozz was threatening to do the same to Europe the crusades indeed prevented the total destruction of freedom and liberty, I look for ward to the day where a new Crusade+ Dharamyudh will be declared against the mozz and only 2 choices be given to them the former 2 (kill or convert) no latter expel or dhimmi.

You do not get the irony of calling a bagh in Karachi Bagh Bin Qasim after the man who imposed Arab imperialism in Sindh after slaughtering 2.5 million natives Sindhis (oh I get it they were Hindus and Qasim was spreading the Deen so what if 2.5 million were killed its all for their own good you know) and the victims of Arab Imperialism are so brainwashed by their masters that they not only genuflect before their oppressors they revile those of their own who were brave enough to resist.

Enuff said you are trying to be a good Shia muslim boss this is an oxy moron you cannot be good and have the m word attached to you. It is like saying I am trying to be a good madarchoood. The concept is the same but diametrically opposite whatever this narcistic murderer taught for the non muslims it is actually applicable to the Muslims because and only because they follow him and that too with their eyes open, but whatever is inconvenient they pretend (like you) to rationalise it or dismiss it by saying it is untrue.

You love your mother. Lot of things in life our destiny. Suppose your mother was a non muslim and now suppose when she married your father she did not choose to embrace this sickening cult. After her death would you be allowed to go and pray on her grave/samadhi?

A simple yes or no would do.

And so let us say the Truth: not ``The religion of peace`` but ``The cult of narcissm that would not allow you the privilege of weeping and crying for the woman whose progeny you are if she is a non Muslim``

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 280

Tolkinin,

I am expecting my Hindu bretheren to read Goel, Elst, Shourie and the others so as to improve their intellect.

Do not know whether you are a Hindu or not, but if you are then read these Mahapurushs` vani and if you cannot refute it (by logic alone not Historical proof) then accept it.

If you are a mozz then do ghar vapsi.

Sanatani

RELIGION IS WRONG
May the truth dawn on us all

#230 Sanatani

Kis mitti ke bane hain aap?? First think of a person very close to you. Then try to think of the gruesome way those passengers died. Maybe that will help you imagine what their surviving relatives would be going through. The complete irony is that the more you try to be an polar opposite of islam-inspired hate mongers who are beyond reason, the more of their replica you become. I grew up as a Hindu in Pakistan and can assure you that most Pakistanis are nowhere close to the urstruly or tahmed types. It may not make any difference to you though. The other sort, including I am sure whose deaths you are gloating over, would usually say only positive things about their stay in India upon their return.