Why Have This Train At All?

Re: # 439
Post godhra incident was to show that, moslems can not get away always with doing barbaric act. In the history of Gujrat, islamic barbarism had no bounds. Even in 1960's, Congress has tried to promote moslems against gujratis. As these attrocities were confined within the cities, Congress has got away with it. Shivsena/RSS has paid back the moslems with their same coin. I hope Mr. Modi's appeal to all caste groups remain intact.

Re: # 454
Mr. Nilekani is correct. You take out the hitech industries and institutes from India, it is like any other 3rd world country. The police, the beaurocrat, the judiciary and other Govt. services are at least as bad as Pakistan. I have worked in Indian Railway subsidiary. The pathetic attitude and in-efficiency of the railway officers tell you, why Railway is not performing properly. When, I look back, I feel, they has no belonging to the organisation they work for. In all this, I have seen very honest officers also. But they are handful and are now migrating to private industries out of frustration.

I feel that Attari Express ( DELHI-ATTARI ) and Samjhauta Express ( ATTARI-LAHORE ) should not be stopped at all rather there should discipline, order ( systematic working )and all the passengers & their luggage should be scanned/checked in order not to let any mishap take place again. It is poor man's Shatabdi to Lahore / Delhi and it binds / re strengthens relationships between Indo-Pak people. Khuda isse nazar-e-bad se bachae. Ameen.

Veeresh - Hi Again. I was just reading the businessweek last night when I came across an interesting coverage on India that`s worth sharing. In my earlier interacts, I had initially raised concern on the bad infrastructure that needed to be addressed in India before even thinking of having any Samjhota Express between the 2 countries. It is better not to have any form of mass transit between the two countries for human beings(regardless of the social strata) than have one which does not comply with the safety rules and regulations. I have worked on projects in the transportation world and have first hand knowledge of the the claims, safety issues and tort litigation matters that arise from those claims. I understand in 3rd world countries, any kind of claims would go down the drain since there is no defined standard and even if there is one there is no quality assurance conducted to validate the basic standards.

The following is a long article and would require careful reading. I am sure it is not something that you are unaware of, but it is important to pay attention to my earlier advice that drove Chowk`s Admin nuts.

---

The Trouble With India
Crumbling roads, jammed airports, and power blackouts could hobble growth
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_12/b4026001.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives


COVER STORY PODCAST


When foreigners say Bangalore is India`s version of Silicon Valley, the high-tech office park called Electronics City is what they`re often thinking of. But however much Californians might hate traffic-clogged Route 101, the main drag though the Valley, it has nothing on Hosur Road. This potholed, four-lane stretch of gritty pavement—the primary access to Electronics City—is pure chaos. Cars, trucks, buses, motorcycles, taxis, rickshaws, cows, donkeys, and dogs jostle for every inch of the roadway as horns blare and brakes squeal. Drivers run red lights and jam their vehicles into any available space, paying no mind to pedestrians clustered desperately on median strips like shipwrecked sailors.




Slide Show >>Pass through the six-foot-high concrete walls into Electronics City, though, and the loudest sounds you hear are the chirping of birds and the whirr of electric carts that whisk visitors from one steel-and-glass building to the next. Young men and women stroll the manicured pathways that wend their way through the leafy 80-acre spread or coast quietly on bicycles along the smooth asphalt roads.

With virtually no mass transit in Bangalore, Indian technology firm Infosys Technologies Ltd. spends $5 million a year on buses, minivans, and taxis to transport its 18,000 employees to and from Electronics City. And traffic jams mean workers can spend upwards of four hours commuting each day. ``India has underinvested in infrastructure for 60 years, and we`re behind what we need by 10 to 12 years,`` says T.V. Mohandas Pai, director of human resources for Infosys.

India`s high-tech services industry has set the country`s economic flywheel spinning. Growth is running at 9%-plus this year. The likes of Wal-Mart (WMT ), Vodafone (VOD ), and Citigroup (C ) are placing multibillion-dollar bets on the country, lured by its 300 million-strong middle class. In spite of a recent drop, the Bombay stock exchange`s benchmark Sensex index is still up more than 40% since June. Real estate has shot through the roof, with some prices doubling in the past year.

But this economic boom is being built on the shakiest of foundations. Highways, modern bridges, world-class airports, reliable power, and clean water are in desperately short supply. And what`s already there is literally crumbling under the weight of progress. In December, a bridge in eastern India collapsed, killing 34 passengers in a train rumbling underneath. Economic losses from congestion and poor roads alone are as high as $6 billion a year, says Gajendra Haldea, an adviser to the federal Planning Commission.

For all its importance, the tech services sector employs just 1.6 million people, and it doesn`t rely on good roads and bridges to get its work done. India needs manufacturing to boom if it is to boost exports and create jobs for the 10 million young people who enter the workforce each year. Suddenly, good infrastructure matters a lot more. Yet industry is hobbled by overcrowded highways where speeds average just 20 miles per hour. Some ports rely on armies of laborers to unload cargo from trucks and lug it onto ships. Across the state of Maharashtra, major cities lose power one day a week to relieve pressure on the grid. In Pune, a city of 4.5 million, it`s lights out every Thursday—forcing factories to maintain expensive backup generators. Government officials were shocked last year when Intel Corp. (INTC ) chose Vietnam over India as the site for a new chip assembly plant. Although Intel declined to comment, industry insiders say the reason was largely the lack of reliable power and water in India.

Add up this litany of woes and you understand why India`s exports total less than 1% of global trade, compared with 7% for China. Says Infosys Chairman N.R. Narayana Murthy: ``If our infrastructure gets delayed, our economic development, job creation, and foreign investment get delayed. Our economic agenda gets delayed—if not derailed.``

The infrastructure deficit is so critical that it could prevent India from achieving the prosperity that finally seems to be within its grasp. Without reliable power and water and a modern transportation network, the chasm between India`s moneyed elite and its 800 million poor will continue to widen, potentially destabilizing the country. Jagdish N. Bhagwati, a professor at Columbia University, figures gross domestic product growth would run two percentage points higher if the country had decent roads, railways, and power. ``We`re bursting at the seams,`` says Kamal Nath, India`s Commerce & Industry Minister. Without better infrastructure, ``we can`t continue with the growth rates we have had.``

The problems are even contributing to overheating in the economy. Inflation spiked in the first week of February to a two-year high of 6.7%, due in part to bottlenecks caused by the country`s lousy transport network. Up to 40% of farm produce is lost because it rots in the fields or spoils en route to consumers, which contributes to rising prices for staples such as lentils and onions.

India today is about where China was a decade ago. Back then, China`s economy was shifting into overdrive, but its roads and power grid weren`t up to the task. So Beijing launched a massive upgrade initiative, building more than 25,000 miles of expressways that now crisscross the country and are as good as the best roads in the U.S. or Europe. India, by contrast, has just 3,700 miles of such highways. It`s no wonder that when foreign companies weigh putting new plants in China vs. India to produce global exports, China more often wins out.

China`s lead in infrastructure is likely to grow, too. Beijing plows about 9% of its GDP into public works, compared with New Delhi`s 4%. And because of its authoritarian government, China gets faster results. ``If you have to build a road in China, just a handful of people need to make a decision,`` says Daniel Vasella, chief executive of pharmaceutical giant Novartis (NVS ). ``If you want to build a road in India, it`ll take 10 years of discussion before you get a decision.``

Blame it partly on India`s revolving-door democracy. Political parties typically hold power for just one five-year term before disgruntled voters, swayed by populist promises from the opposition, kick them out of office. In elections last year in the state of Tamil Nadu, for instance, a new government was voted in after it pledged to give free color TVs to poor families. ``In a sanely organized society you can get a lot done. Not here,`` says Jayaprakash Narayan, head of Lok Satta, or People Power, a national reform party.

Then there`s ``leakage``—India`s euphemism for rampant corruption. Nearly all sectors of officialdom are riddled with graft, from neighborhood cops to district bureaucrats to state ministers. Indian truckers pay about $5 billion a year in bribes, according to the watchdog group Transparency International. Corruption delays infrastructure projects and raises costs for those that move ahead.

Fortunately, after decades of underinvestment and political inertia, India`s political leadership has awakened to the magnitude of the infrastructure crisis. A handful of major projects have been completed; others are moving forward. Work on the Golden Quadrilateral—a $12 billion initiative spanning more than 3,000 miles of four- and six-lane expressways connecting Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata, and Chennai—is due to be completed this year. The first phase of a new subway in New Delhi finished in late 2005 on budget and ahead of schedule. And new airports are under construction in Bangalore and Hyderabad, with more planned elsewhere. ``We have to improve the quality of our infrastructure,`` Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told a gathering of tech industry leaders in Mumbai on Feb. 9. ``It`s a priority of our government.``

Singh, in fact, is promising a Marshall Plan-scale effort. The government estimates public and private organizations will chip in $330 billion to $500 billion over the next five years for highways, power generation, ports, and airports. In addition, leading conglomerates have pledged to overhaul the retailing sector. That will require infrastructure upgrades along the entire food distribution chain, from farm fields to store shelves.

Envisioning a brand-new India is the easy part; paying for it is another matter. By necessity, since the country`s public debt stands at 82% of GDP, the 11th-worst ranking in the world, much of the money for these new projects will have to come from private sources. Yet India captured only $8 billion in foreign direct investment last year, compared with China`s $63 billion. ``Having grandiose plans isn`t enough,`` says Yale University economics professor T.N. Srinivasan.

Just about every foreign company operating in India has a horror story of the hardships of doing business there. Nokia Corp. (NOK ) saw thousands of its cellular phones ruined last October when a shipment from its factory in Chennai was soaked by rain because there was no room to warehouse the crates of handsets at the local airport. Japan`s Maruti Suzuki says trucking its cars 900 miles from its factory in Gurgaon to the port in Mumbai can take up to 10 days. That`s partly due to delays at the three state borders along the way, where drivers are stalled as officials check their papers. But it`s also because big rigs are barred from India`s congested cities during the day, when they might bring dense traffic to a standstill. Once at the port, the Japanese company`s autos can wait weeks for the next outbound ship because there`s not enough dock space for cargo carriers to load and unload.

India`s summer monsoons wreak havoc, too. Even relatively light rains can choke sewers, flood streets, and paralyze a city, while downpours are devastating. Two years ago, Florida-based contract manufacturer Jabil Circuit Inc. saw shipments of computers and networking gear from its plant near Mumbai delayed for five days after an epic storm. ``In our business, five days is a really long time,`` says William D. Muir Jr., who oversees Jabil`s Asian operations.

Companies often have no choice but to make the best of a bad situation. Cisco Systems Inc. (CSCO ), the American networking equipment giant, has had a research and development office in India since 1999 and already has 2,000 engineers in the country. To supply the country`s fast-growing telecommunications industry, Cisco decided last year to try its hand at making some parts locally. In December it contracted with another company to build Internet phones in the southeastern city of Chennai. Although Cisco says the quality of the workmanship is up to snuff, it has to fly parts in because the ports are so slow—and getting them to the factory right when they`re needed is proving nettlesome. ``We believe in manufacturing in India, but we don`t believe in logistics in India—yet,`` says Wim Elfrink, Cisco`s chief globalization officer. Elfrink adds that unless the Chennai operation demonstrates it can run as efficiently as Cisco setups elsewhere, it won`t go into full production as planned this summer.

Even the world`s largest maker of infrastructure equipment is constrained by India`s feeble underpinnings. General Electric Co. (GE ) last year sold $1.2 billion worth of gear such as power generators and locomotives in India, more than double what it billed in 2005. To meet that surging demand, it is scrambling to find a location where it can manufacture locomotives in partnership with India Railways. But when GE dispatched three employees to survey a potential site the railway favored in the northern state of Bihar, the trio returned discouraged. It took five hours to drive the 50 miles from the airport to the site, and when they got there they found...nothing. ``No roads, no power, no schools, no water, no hospitals, no housing,`` says Pratyush Kumar, president of GE Infrastructure in India. ``We`d have to create everything from scratch,`` including many miles of railroad tracks to get the locomotives out to the main lines.

But there is a silver lining for GE and other international giants: India`s infrastructure deficit could yield huge opportunities. American executives who traveled to India last November on the largest U.S. trade mission ever were tantalized by the possibilities. Jennifer Thompson, director of international planning at Oshkosh Truck Corp. (OSK ), viewed construction projects where swarms of workers carried wet concrete in buckets to be poured. That told her there`s great potential in India for selling Oshkosh`s mixer trucks. ``There are infrastructure challenges, but we see a lot of opportunities to help them meet those challenges,`` she says.

That explains why so many multinationals are flocking to India. Take hotel construction: In a country with only 25,000 tourist-class hotel rooms (compared with more than 140,000 in Las Vegas alone), companies including Hilton (HLT ), Wyndham (WYN ), and Ramada have plans for 75,000 rooms on their drawing boards. Or consider telecom. Because of deregulation and ferocious demand, India boasts the fastest growth in cell-phone service anywhere, with companies adding some 6 million new customers a month. No wonder Britain`s Vodafone Group PLC (VOD ) just ponied up $11 billion for a controlling interest in Hutchison Essar, India`s No. 4 mobile carrier. U.S. private equity outfits also want in on the action. On Feb. 15, Blackstone Group and Citigroup announced they are teaming up with the Indian government and the Infrastructure Development Finance Corp. to set up a $5 billion fund for infrastructure investments in India.

But while the laws of supply and demand would argue that India`s infrastructure gap can be filled, that logic ignores the corrosive effect of the country`s politics. To gain the favor of voters, Indian politicians have long subsidized electricity and water for farmers, a policy that has discouraged private investment in those areas. That`s what wrecked the now-infamous Dabhol Power plant. In the late 1990s, Enron, GE, and Bechtel spent a total of $2.8 billion building a huge complex near Mumbai capable of producing more than 2,000 megawatts of electricity. But a government power authority set prices so low that it was uneconomical for Dabhol to operate, and the whole deal fell apart. (The plant, taken over by an Indian organization, now runs only fitfully.) A 2001 law was supposed to create a framework to support private investment in power generation. But according to American construction company executives, it`s not working well. ``Everybody knows what needs to be done, but they have great difficulty doing it,`` says one of the Americans. ``If the party in opposition offers subsidized power, the party in power has to give subsidized power to get reelected.``

Politicians who refuse to play the game pay a steep price. N. Chandrababu Naidu, the former chief minister of the state of Andhra Pradesh, transformed the state capital of Hyderabad from a backwater into a high-tech destination by building new roads, widening others, and aggressively carving out land for factories and office parks. Google (GOOG ), IBM (IBM ), Microsoft (MSFT ), and Motorola (MOT ) have all built R&D facilities there.

His reward? Voters tossed him out of office two years ago. During his decade in power, Naidu didn`t do enough for rural areas, and his challenger promised to channel state funds into irrigation projects and electricity subsidies. ``Naidu thought economics were more important than politics. He was wrong,`` says V.S. Rao, director of the Birla Institute of Technology & Science in Hyderabad. Naidu, 56, is plotting a comeback in elections two years hence. This time, he`s preaching a new gospel. ``You can`t just target growth,`` says a chastened Naidu. ``You have to create policies that make the wealth trickle down to the common man.``

But even when politicians say they`re beefing up infrastructure, it rarely helps the poorest Indians. Agriculture is stagnant in part because of a lack of the most rudimentary of roads to get to and from fields. N. Tarupthurai, for instance, scratches out a living from a five-acre plot in Jinnuru, a village in northeastern Andhra Pradesh. But his fields are more than a mile from the nearest paved road, so each day the 40-year-old Tarupthurai must carry his tools, seeds, fertilizer, and crops down a dirt path on his back or on his bicycle. ``I have asked for a road, and the government says it`s under consideration,`` says the mustachioed, curly-haired farmer. Then he shrugs.

One reason little practical help makes it from the seats of power to India`s impoverished villages is that so much money gets siphoned off along the way. With corrupt officials skimming at every step, many public works projects either go over budget or are never completed. ``You figure that 25% of the cost goes to corruption,`` says Verghese Jacob, head of the Byrraju Foundation, which promotes rural development. ``And then they do such a bad job that the road falls apart in one year and has to be patched over again,`` Jacob says as he jostles along in a car on a potholed byway outside Hyderabad.

None of the solutions to India`s infrastructure challenges are simple, but business leaders, some enlightened government officials, and even ordinary citizens are chipping in to make things better. The most potent weapon India`s reformers have against corruption is transparency. Last October a new right-to-information law went into effect requiring both central and state governments to divulge information about contracts, hiring, and expenditures to any citizen who requests it. The country is also putting to work its vaunted technology prowess to police the government. Officials in 200 districts are using software from Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. to help monitor a government program that offers every rural household a guarantee of 100 days of work per year. Most of this labor goes into public works. To minimize ``leakage,`` the TCS software tracks every expenditure—and makes all of the information available real-time on a Web site accessible to anyone.

Sometimes frustrated Indians take matters into their own hands. Tired of spending four-plus hours a day in traffic, Aruna Newton last fall helped organize something of a women`s crusade to speed up infrastructure improvements. Nearly 15,000 volunteers now monitor key road projects and meet with state officials to press for action. They even enlisted the state chief minister`s mother, who helped get his attention. ``It`s about the collective power of the people,`` says Newton, a 40-year-old vice-president for Infosys. ``I just wish building a road was as easy as writing a software program.``

Increasingly, companies trying to expand in India have the government as a willing partner rather than a roadblock. The state of Andhra Pradesh rolled out the red carpet last year for MAS Holdings Ltd. of Sri Lanka, South Asia`s largest garment manufacturer. It promised subsidized electricity, new access roads, and even a deepwater port if the company would place a huge industrial park on the southern coast. Now MAS Holdings plans to build a cluster of factories that will eventually employ 30,000 production workers. And it chose India over China. ``The government support was absolutely vital,`` says John Chiramel, India director for MAS Holdings. ``If we can work together, there`s no stopping growth in this country.``

A key to getting massive projects off the drawing boards is forming public-private partnerships where the government and companies share costs, risks, and rewards. In 2005, India passed a groundbreaking law permitting officials to tap such partnerships for infrastructure initiatives. Developers ante up most of the money, collect tolls or other usage fees, and eventually hand the facilities back to the government.

The first project to take advantage of the new law is the $430 million international airport scheduled to open next year in Bangalore. The facility is designed to handle 11.5 million passengers per year—nearly double the capacity of the overburdened existing airport. It will be owned by a private company, which will turn it over to the Karnataka state government after 60 years. Global engineering and equipment giant Siemens (SI ) is helping to build the facility, and Switzerland`s Unique Ltd. will manage it. These companies are also equity investors. The state had to contribute just 18% of the cost. Without such an arrangement, Karnataka wouldn`t be getting a new airport.

A lot of India`s hopes rest on the airport deal`s success. If it proves the viability of public-private partnerships, more such ventures could come pouring in. A visit to the site instills confidence. Project manager Sivaramakrishnan S. Iyer is a crusty veteran of mammoth infrastructure ventures throughout South Asia and the Mideast. Wearing a scuffed hardhat, with a two-day growth of white stubble on his face, he surveys the site from a 2.5-mile-long bed of crushed granite that will be the runway. Work goes on seven days a week, 18 hours a day. Iyer is intent on wrapping up on schedule in April, 2008. ``We have the will to do it, and it will be done,`` he says.

Will the airport open on time? That`s not within Iyer`s control. Two government authorities are responsible for building the road that leads to the airport, and they`re locked in a dispute over how to do it. Work hasn`t started.

And so it goes in India. Unless the nation shakes off its legacy of bureaucracy, politics, and corruption, its ability to build adequate infrastructure will remain in doubt. So will its economic destiny.


By Steve Hamm, with Nandini Lakshman in Mumbai

Re: # 432

So this was the video showing shameless surrender of a `Geedarh` in tigers skin, which picture Hafeez Pirzada, the then Minister of Law in Bhutto Cabinet, was prevented from showing on the PTV frustrating his daring announcement to do so. We had waited long for seeing this film but were disappointed. That man is still alive but, as far as I know, he never dared even to mention his failure to keep up his words.

Btw, they say in the complete film a Sikh soldier had slapped Niazi Tiger. That has not been shown in this film. I doubt if this could have happened.

Going back several posts I find that Krishna_abcd has already posted the video of this great event......but then, a still is worth a thousand videos, hahahaha.

Look at the contented face of the officer on extreme right. Is he smiling? Did the General shake hands with him later, ``Thank you for letting our asses off the burner, Sir`` or something like that?

IS IT BETTER THAN THE IGNOMINY OF A SOLDIER`S CORPSE BEING CUT UP LIKE A PIG AND FED TO THE CATTLE?

What military honours he got for this?

Re: # 449

Look how the sikh soldier (on left side background) is laughing! Could the great Paki warrior have heard him laughing? Could he have died of shame? (Shame, and Pakistanis? No.)

Re: # 448 Further -


Anyone gloating over the photos of dead soldiers should sink in ground at the sight of this great warrior of Pakistan. These soldiers were poor dead soldiers...yes, poor and dead. You may feed a dead soldier to cattle and yet find no glory (may be in Pakistan you do, perhaps). But here it is a general, no less, who fed millions of his own countrymen to cattle. And he didn`t die of shame when signing this instrument of surrender, ABJECT SURRENDER...HAHAHAHAHA. And his funny little countrymen, they don`t die of shame when they see this photo, HAHAHAHAHAHA and they are shameless enough to gloat and gravedance over the photos of some dead soldiers, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Shame, shame, utter shame. Thoooooo.

Looks like our great Pakistani photomaniac hasn`t seen this photograph yet.

nb,

This photo is from a December 2005 article in rediff.com about border scuffles between Indians and B`Deshis. The villagers are Bangladeshis.

Refer to http://im.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/08bang2.jpg and the accompanying article.

Re: # 445
Sorry, I may have told you I`m not sure because villagers on both sides look like they can`t be bothered with carrying their own bodies, leave alone another one.

Re: # 433
How many times have I told you these are Indians?

Re: # 373
Explain yourself please.

Re: # 341
it amazes me that so many are serious about God at all. You do agree, don`t you?

#441 by zeemax

[Yes. Unless you meant something else in #434:

#434 by krishna_abcd
Yup. That looks like what happened AFTER Godhra. ]

It is not for nothing that you are the resident village idiot.

#440,

Was I?

Yes. Unless you meant something else in #434:

#434 by krishna_abcd
Yup. That looks like what happened AFTER Godhra.

#439 by zeemax

[And ... aren`t you the one who was just glorifying what you did in Godhra? ]

Was I?

[I think it`s all fair. It is who beheads whom first ... and I suspect it is you and your ilk who will soon lose their hat stands ..]

You think so? Well, we will see about that, won`t we?

Maybe there is something to the theory of Karma after all. Let`s watch and wait....

#438 by krishna_abcd

Yeah. So? I never protested it but I did point it out for the knowledge of ignoramuses like you. It`s a fight and US has to do what it has to do. US is killing Muslim civilians and Arabs are killing americans whether civilian or not .. Which one is better?

In fact, Muhammad should have beheaded and enslaved the previous two Jew tribes as well to whom he gave safe passage out of Medina. That was his mistake and he realized it later and corrected it. Those two tribes later not only made trouble for him, but also resulted in his death in poisoning him at Khaybar.

And ... aren`t you the one who was just glorifying what you did in Godhra? Kicking pregnant women and burning them alive? Which monster were you following?

I think it`s all fair. It is who beheads whom first ... and I suspect it is you and your ilk who will soon lose their hat stands ..

#437 by zeemax

[Of-course Muhammad had 700 jews beheaded and dumped in a trench and the women and children enslaved ... what`s wrong with that?]

Are you the same intellectual who has been waxing eloquent about the USA`s unethical behaviour in Iraq, and Modi`s ``pogroms``?

Eh?

#436 by krishna_abcd

Of-course Muhammad had 700 jews beheaded and dumped in a trench and the women and children enslaved ... what`s wrong with that?

:~)

#435 by resident village idiot

zee_microminiscule is delighted that the focus has shifted from the head katua and his crimes to other matters.

So tell me - do you have ANYTHING to disprove that the head cutloo beheaded 700 UNARMED civilians and sold their INNOCENT AND HELPLESS women and children into slavery?

Eh?

If not, admit publicly that you are the follower of a true monster.

Or else you could follow your other cult members on Chowk and conveniently shut up.

#434 by krishna_abcd

... err actually this isn`t godhra ... this is the bingos you liberated carrying off a hindoo soldier like a pig to cut him up and feed him to cattle.

... but perhaps you`ll like this better ... where is this?

#433 by zeemax

Yup. That looks like what happened AFTER Godhra.

Without comment ... a picture is worth a thousand words ...

Re: #430 by abu_safwaan

How was that for an ass-whopping? Eh? Cutlooooos?

:)

#430 by abu_safwaan

[Another ugloo hindoo taking out his frustrations and his insecurities by being verbally abusive in cyberspace. These same “sabji’s” are the most soft spoken and meeker than meek in real life because of the fear of ass-whoopin’. I have never met a hostile or rude hindoo in real life, because they know that muslims are short tempered and when u r 4’11 90 lbs u r better advised to take out the aggression and insecurities in cyberspace only.....]

Re: # 425 & all concerned bhindis

Another ugloo hindoo taking out his frustrations and his insecurities by being verbally abusive in cyberspace. These same “sabji’s” are the most soft spoken and meeker than meek in real life because of the fear of ass-whoopin’. I have never met a hostile or rude hindoo in real life, because they know that muslims are short tempered and when u r 4’11 90 lbs u r better advised to take out the aggression and insecurities in cyberspace only, so keep on it my lil hindoos…keep in mind lil sabji’s that if the Bedouins u so vehemently despise kicks out your daddy from the janitorial positions in UAE and Saudi then the bumbling economy that u like to bragg about will come crashing down, given that there toilets will be clogged as well but they can always hire Sikhs, so watch it hindoos’ daddy n mommys jobs are at stake.

Krishnoooaa, hahahahahahah this is getting too funny man, I feel rather sad at ur insistence that u r fair skinned I am almost compelled now to stop making fun of u, there is a sense of desperation, ok fine u r fair skinned..now go make me a burger.

Dear Chowk Staff
This interactor, called ZahraJ is picking fight with me for absolutely NO reason.

1:-I have never interacted with ZahraJ in the past.

2:- I have never read any of his gibberish on chowk.

3:- I have never personally attacked him.

Then why all this nonsense? Then why all this harrassement?

I request you chowk staff to interfere and stop this interactor ZahraJ`s erratic online behvaiour.

Thanks

#424 ZahraJ sahib

You sound exactly like a mentally retard, chromosomally defected with complete confused and ofcourse schizophrenic mind.

Brother

I feel pity for your mental health. You need emergent psychiatric treatment. What are you doing on chowk? You are just making all the boards chaotic with your own mental chaos.

Before you commit suicide or homicide , please consult psych emergency services.....

Sorry, I do not have any treatment for your damaged mind.

Dear Chowk Staff

Please, ban this schizophrenic man, called ZahraJ, who is abusing all other interactors becuse of his own schizophrenia.

Thanks

... noone to defend their dark and dank morass with 5.7m HIV carriers, 30,000 underage girls abducted and sold into sex slavery in kalakutta alone each year, the land of kherlanji type massacres .. where 75,000 stray rabid dogs roam the streets in ITBilliorainersVille aka BhangiLauroo, and where 60% of population lives in slums without toiletrs in the largest city without toilets and squats on railroads ...

Noone to defend all that .. huh? Not a single puny one ... :?

.... Now it is CONDOMS ...

While browsing Financial Times, this caught my eye:

India in dispute over the price of condoms

Published: March 2 2007

The World Bank and the UK’s Department for International Development have refused to finance the Indian government’s purchase of condoms to fight HIV/Aids because of an alleged lack of transparency in procurement procedures, the Financial Times has learnt.

The government now obtains condoms from local manufacturers such as the state-owned Hindustan Latex, which supplies hundreds of millions of contraceptives required under National Aids Control Program-III, a five-year plan starting next month.

HIV prevention organisations are angry about the high cost of government-procured condoms, saying that scarce funds are being wasted in India, which has the world’s biggest HIV caseload, according to UNAIDS, with an estimated 5.7m carriers last year.

“Domestic preference is playing a role here that it wouldn’t in other countries, leading to a situation where India is paying 30-40 per cent more than the world average,” said a senior international civil servant running an HIV programme in India. “It is very frustrating but the government says it’s non-negotiable.”

The head of a non-governmental HIV/Aids body said: “Over a billion condoms are being manufactured under government contract every year at a price that is 25-40 per cent above the market price. It all looks very ugly to me.”

So, after stealing from coffins of fallen soldiers, now they`re stealing from Condoms funded by World Bank.

... Great going...injuns

#421 by abu_safwaan

[ohhh ohh..we got a lil mughal in us now don`t we?..]


Oye low-class mongol-rape-victim-ke-aulad, :)

No. We don`t. I am Brahmin. My family has been Brahmin for thousands of years. Brahmins are more often fair than not.

Sorry. UNLIKE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, I am not the product of rape.

Stick to taxicab driving. And keep studying the pedophile`s manual.


:))

Sorry I have no tolerance for creatures who spin and weave stories and lies; and have multiple personalities/nicks. Such creatures try to emulate others to give one impression(whatever their insecurities are ...) and quickly forget their past conduct. My earlier post was addressed to Chowk Admin and not to the uncouth and unstable creature. I hope Chowk`s standard has not dropped that low to let this impostor be the spokesperson.

This impostor has a tendency to parrot others` posts, ideas and expressions. I guess that is the result of some deep rooted insecurities and the desire to sound smart. Interestingly, the mindset is quite conniving. When a few interactors are away from Chowk or a discussion board, this poster will try to assume their identity. I guess that`s why there is so much gap in communication and comprehension.

These traits suggest that the interactor is either a chameleon or suffer from multiple personality order. The best thing would be to consult a specialist. Normal human beings do not behave this way.

Good luck!

Re: # 421

Abu Katue,

You would not know a Sati or a Savitri even if she kickd you on the balls.

Or perhaps they were removed to make you a Ali and guard Harems.

Vaise Krishnaji,

Islam is the ultimate imperialism. As one of Lohia`s famous quotes was the Indian muslais are incorrigible (Indian to mean Indian subcontinent) it is one thing to know about the rape of your mothers and motherland it is quite another to revile in it.

This explains the problems with these jokers they know their women folk were violated and converted and since THAT IS A FACT to hide their shame they say similar things about Hindu Women.

AAbu katue a Hindu women when she was violated committed suicide rather than commit the crime of producing a Muslai`s offspring and no her father and brothers never had to resort to honour killing for this their sense of Honour was so high.

Waise Krishna JI I think I am being cruel to this offspring of a raped ex Hindu woman (though Raand would be a better word) telling him things he does not think can exixst as they do not exist in him or his community things like sense of Honour.

Ja apni Ma ****da aur khush ho.

Regards
Sanatani

ZahraJ sahib

So, you abused me for this innocent post......#408..

Dear chowk staff

Please, just read the contents of this post.......and justify ....

[[[#408 by Zeena on March 1, 2007 1:43pm PT

My CONDOLENCE note to the relatives of the deceased ones in this train tragedy.

I know how you feel when you lose your loved one`s ........I also know those innocent people are in peace in heaven.........there is no ointment for your wounds. But, I just wanna share a moment of silence with you in the honor of those who lost their lives for some unknown reasons...................b/c we humans can`t comprehend what`s the reason behind every action?

I wish I could hug all of you personally a, wipe off your tears and could put an ointment of
love on your fresh wounds......

May God give peace to resting souls and your souls. Ameen....

Dear Chowk Staff

Thank you so much for being fair and for supporting unflinching idealism.....
Chowk staff is very intellectual and we should be thankful to chowk staff for giving us a free opportunity to interact and learn from so many learned people around.

Atleast, i have learned so much from all these respectable and intelligent interactors.

#400

Stop acting like a prude. Stop blaming chowk staff for your own deeds. You should be thankful to chowk staff for giving you an ample opportunity to interact with us.

Re: # 416
hahahahahaha...ohh yes yes krishnoooo putrewqerwertyushjdklsiomanoranjan you are a real eye candy..n watd u say u r fair skinnedd ohhh ohh..we got a lil mughal in us now don`t we?..that granny of urs wasnt all that sachii-savitri after all.....hahahahahahahaha...thas why u should never take ur foot outta ur mouth..u ugly-azz hindoooooo

ZahraJ sahib

Tell me, what is your beef with me? Why you called me ,``schizophrenic impostor``?

Have I ever personally attacked you? Never

Have I ever tried to interact with your gibberish that you write all over the chowk? never

Why all this moronish personal attacking and irrelevant post about me? nonsensical

Dear Chowk staff

This interactor ZahraJ is crossing all the limits of your set interact guidelines. I do not wish to retaliate. I trust your moderation. Please, do your moderation on this board as well.

ZahraJ is derailing this whole article with his irrelevancy.

Chowk Admin - I agree we should apply the guidelines and ban this insecure impostor for good.

Dear chowk staff

Please, apply your interact guidelines equally here on this board.

Just look @ [[[#413 by ZahraJ on March 2, 2007 0:42am PT
#408 - Schizophrenic impostor!]]]

Tell me if this is relevant? This interactor is out of control. Please, control his/her behaviour.

Thanks

[[#413 by ZahraJ on March 2, 2007 0:42am PT
#408 - Schizophrenic impostor!]]]

Dear Chowk staff

This interactor called ZahraJ is harrassing me with his/her personal attacks.

Please, delete this interact or ban this irrelevant interactor who feels no shame in calling people names.

Thanks

#407 by abu_safwaan

[People people people.. Krishna Mohalikuytrewadsfarijhkalyalam is not sick, he is not a pron addict, he is just ugly. Thats really it. When you are as ugly as him, world is your enemy. He looks around and he sees these fair-skinned Muslims who are all taller than 4`11 and he is bitter, at some level he really wished that he was a Muslim but then he woudnt be able to smell like curry all day long cause eventually he would have to use a soap and he thinks he is allergic to that. It really all boils down to his insecurities which stems from his ugliness and short height.]


Abey moosla katuey :))

I am a North Indian Brahmin. I am tall and also definitely fairer than the overwhelming majority of Mooslas in Pakistan. In fact, when I see a cricket match stadium in Pakiland, 98% of people I see are dark complexioned.

So stop your low class uneducated cab-driver reasoning.

Keep worshipping that pedophile. Until you get daisy cuttered by Americans.

:)

#406 by resident village idiot

[Particularly when some of these are doctored ... like the Iran stoning preperation photo ..

But he`s sick. No doubt about that.]

Is that the best you could do? :) That ONE picture is doctored? How about the thousands of others?

And leave the pictures. How about the fact that the head Moosla beheaded 700 unarmed men? And sold their INNOCENT AND HELPLESS women and children into slavery?

Eh? Any comebacks? Anything to defend the head katua?

I don`t think so. :)

#405 by Shah2

[you must be like porno loving voyer looking at despecable pictures...

It does not matter whose pic in the frame is but surely who gloates on it is also sick to the stomach]


Forget about me. How about the pictures, eh?

Is that your ``religion``? Thoooo thooo pthooo!!!

And how about the fact that the head Moosla beheaded 700 unarmed men? And sold their INNOCENT AND HELPLESS women and children into slavery?

Eh? There is no word strong enough to express my disgust and repulsion at your ``religion``.

Ughhhhh!!!

#408 - Schizophrenic impostor!

nb jii
C`mon, she is not only pretty , but also very very innocent looking lil girl with angelic look in her eyes.................awwwww

Just look At her innocent eyes.....

Re: # 352
Sorry, I don`t think she`s particularly good looking.

#

I did not think our Musalman warriors were so faint hearted, BACKSHOWERS and BATTLE-FIELD-DESSERTERS. Congrats Hindus. You have won!
And Musalmans, disappear and stop showing so that we can at least call you SHAHIDS!!

Samar

I found this column by Saeed Naqvi in the Indian Express particularly touching and thought-provoking.

---

Step across those lines
Saeed Naqvi
Posted online: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST
Intimations of mortality is what I would put it down to, this recent procession of friends who have died and whose ashes have had to be immersed in Hardwar or holy rivers elsewhere. Obviously these were Hindus.

A Muslim death, if one can trace down one’s ancestry a few generations, is a rather more territorial affair. An Indian Muslim, if he can help it, likes to be buried in his ‘native’ place. Since Justice Sachar has confirmed Indian Muslims as being a financially embarrassed lot, transporting the deceased from the location of his or her expiry is a huge inconvenience to relatives who are committed to fulfilling the wishes of the dead and of abiding by traditions. This reverie on ashes and graves has been triggered by the terrorist attack on the Samjhauta Express, which transports passengers from Delhi to Lahore and the other way round.

The terminals for this train being Delhi and Lahore creates the impression that it represents some durable system of sustaining people-to-people contact between the two countries. People-to-people, in the Indo-Pak context, would conjure up images of a burgeoning Hindu-Muslim jamboree. This is a huge misunderstanding about the Samjhauta Express, attacked by the terrorists on Sunday night killing almost 70.

Most of those killed were Muslims, both Indians and Pakistanis, returning from relatives in India or travelling to relatives in Pakistan. Some Hindus died too but these were mostly jawans of the Government Railway Protection Force. Their death sheds further light on the Samjhauta Express tragedy.

One of the oozing sores Partition left behind were divided Muslim families. As far as Hindus and Sikhs are concerned the transfer of populations was bloody but total.

The tragedy of Muslims has been of a different order, particularly the Muslims from UP, Bihar and Hyderabad. These families did not migrate en masse. Most were torn apart: parents in India; children in Pakistan. Brothers in India; sisters, married to men with a future on the other side, in Pakistan. An uncle of mine, a captain in the British Indian army actually placed a measuring tape on a map of undivided India to see if Bombay (where he was posted) and Karachi were the same distance from our village of Mustafabad, near Rae Bareli. They were. He moved to Karachi where generals and brigadiers of his acquaintance promised him the moon in the new Islamic state.

Mohajirs (or immigrants) were trapped in all sorts of ironies because this rather ambitious uncle of mine retired and died with no higher rank than that of a major! I am not for a moment suggesting that he would have made it as the army chief had he stayed on in India. The point I am making is that the destination as El Dorado soured as a dream for many Muslims who crossed over. Muslims from the most effete enclaves of India had to make the near impossible adjustment in the hegemonic hold of the energetic Punjabi.

It is largely these Muslims, poor souls, who populated the Samjhauta Express both ways. In a sense it is not a ‘samjhauta’ but a sort of ‘majboori’ or a ‘compulsory’ express. The Monabao-Khokrapar route in Rajasthan-Sindh and the Attari-Wagah train in Punjab have been in operation since soon after Partition, subject to the usual stoppages conditioned by fluctuations in political temperatures between the countries.

Initially, those who had crossed over to Karachi and Hyderabad in Sindh imagined (as did some of the earlier Congress leaders) that Partition was a temporary inconvenience and soon folks would move to and fro like in some imaginary Schengen visa regime. The opposite happened. Attitudes hardened as the two new nation states secured the contours of their distinct nationalisms. The two nations fought several wars, transforming that magical vale of Kashmir into a continuously muffled wail. Since 1989, not so muffled either. It was against this tragic backdrop that the poor on both sides clutched onto the only valuable, they had been left with — relatives on both sides of the border. This is where the Samjhauta Express comes in handy. And now is this thread too being snapped?

There are various categories of people who travel between India and Pakistan. The seminarists, track-two professionals and the rich fly. This costs Rs 15,000. The Delhi-Lahore-Delhi bus costs Rs 900 each way. Both these methods of transport are beyond the means of those for whom relatives are the primary emotional anchor in life — the poorest Muslims on both sides. The Samjhauta fare is Rs 120.

It is these poor lives that have been lost in a macabre incineration of the two coaches.
The Godhra train tragedy had a political consequence. After the tragedy and subsequent mayhem, Narendra Modi won the elections in Gujarat. Before the tragedy, the BJP was routed in UP.

What consequences might one expect from this tragedy? Either the authors of this ghastly act have been so subtle as to leave us all totally baffled. Or, they have been so foolishly transparent as to make their target crystal clear: the Indo-Pak peace process. Pakistan Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri was to arrive the next day. The pundits, of course, will get down to sequencing — Baghliar, Sir Creek, Siachen, Kashmir, the joint mechanism — each one of them sunk in deep thought.

Time was when one could consider New Delhi-Srinagar, India-Pakistan as one complex of issues. The lens now pans a much wider canvas. Americans are stuck in
Iraq, Afghanistan. Heaven knows what is in store for Iran. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India is one contiguous belt. Is Indo-Pak peace possible in the midst of such regional volatility?

If this bilateral matter is not extricated from the blazes, then what hope for the great Indian surge? Under this huge canopy of strategic issues is being played out an existential drama in the life of Salma whose husband is buried in her UP village, father in Karachi. Where should she turn for the burial of her sister? And what of those poor constables, escorting the train, who were charred along with the passengers whose security they were supposed to oversee. How could they have escaped when the coaches of the Samjhauta are sealed in Delhi and unsealed in Attari — the quest for security resulting in its exact opposite.

My CONDOLENCE note to the relatives of the deceased ones in this train tragedy.

I know how you feel when you lose your loved one`s ........I also know those innocent people are in peace in heaven.........there is no ointment for your wounds. But, I just wanna share a moment of silence with you in the honor of those who lost their lives for some unknown reasons...................b/c we humans can`t comprehend what`s the reason behind every action?

I wish I could hug all of you personally a, wipe off your tears and could put an ointment of
love on your fresh wounds......

May God give peace to resting souls and your souls. Ameen....

Dear Chowk Staff

Thank you so much for being fair and for supporting unflinching idealism.....
Chowk staff is very intellectual and we should be thankful to chowk staff for giving us a free opportunity to interact and learn from so many learned people around.

Atleast, i have learned so much from all these respectable and intelligent interactors.

#400

Stop acting like a prude. Stop blaming chowk staff for your own deeds. You should be thankful to chowk staff for giving you an ample opportunity to interact with us.

People people people.. Krishna Mohalikuytrewadsfarijhkalyalam is not sick, he is not a pron addict, he is just ugly. Thats really it. When you are as ugly as him, world is your enemy. He looks around and he sees these fair-skinned Muslims who are all taller than 4`11 and he is bitter, at some level he really wished that he was a Muslim but then he woudnt be able to smell like curry all day long cause eventually he would have to use a soap and he thinks he is allergic to that. It really all boils down to his insecurities which stems from his ugliness and short height. No need to take him seriosuly just laugh at him, thats his comfert zone, if you people indulge him in a theological discussions then he becomes antsy and obnoxious which is not good for his therapy.

#405 by Shah2

Particularly when some of these are doctored ... like the Iran stoning preperation photo ..

But he`s sick. No doubt about that.

#401 Krishana Sri devi....
you must be like porno loving voyer looking at despecable pictures...

It does not matter whose pic in the frame is but surely who gloates on it is also sick to the stomach

I eat meat and everything but this story really creeped me out... back home, one of my friends had this muslim neighbor. On the occasion of a muslim festival, they killed a goat. When my friend asked his muslim neighbor why they can`t just kill the goat instead of subjecting it to the worst imaginable torture killing, then came the reply `` bhai saheb...dil ko itni sukhoon milti hai .... ``.

That picture of a Muslim mob killing a Hindu is really creepy... kinda reminds me what will happen in all those lands where muslims will become a majority. All the hindus and sikhs in UK should immediately align with BNP in UK and bring it to power as soon as possible....

Yikes,

Sadists

I am a totally non-practising Hindu, so no great love for that religion..... but Islam really creeps me out.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#397 by abu_safwaan


Here`s some proof that you are a subzero IQ cabbie:

[2) You are forced to worship monkeys, elephants, cow-poop and only God know what else, and every time that single digit IQ of urs kick in...]


[3) After all of these weapons and supposed arsenal that is the result of your nation’s studiousness, I mean ugly people are good students, we do give you that....]


See what I mean? Eh? Cabbie?

:)




[But you have to understand those sister’s of urs have met real men for the first time and they can’t keep their hands off of us...]

All Paki girls I`ve met were very good at BJs.

Hmmm....So they just slap you around. Eh, cabbie? Maybe because they see that you are dumb as a doorpost with no future. :)

The recent stupidity of Chowk`s Admin is beyond comprehension. The unprofessional moderators (a shame to the concept of moderation) are censoring posts from interactors who are just expressing their opinions on the articles or news, whereas posters and imposters who have made Chowk`s interact section a gibberish den aka communication channel are promoted to copy and paste left, right and center. If anything Chowk should censor and remove jargon posted in 377 and 378 -- it should stay where it belongs (unplugged). I guess enlightened moderation is only possible when the moderators have any sensible neurons left to distinguish between jargon and substance.

Very Disappointing!

The difference is not if MohMad was a killer.....it is animal instinct to kill competition......a tiger kills and a hyena kills.....one kill is admired the other scorned....

MohMad was a coward backstabber.....type of a killer.....muslims ape his kanjarpana.......


Salim`s comments about Punjus are right......it is time for introspection......they have evolved into this by thousands of invasions......good punjus were killed by invaders....bootlicker fratercidal were spared.....thus the undesired habits and traits linger on.......

#397 Abu Safwaan

Abey Abu, your intellect is dazzling!

I mean, it truly shows - based on your level of discourse. Also, it goes a long way toward promoting the concept of peace and harmony for all the people of the world in general and the subcontinental natives in particular.

Chowk staff must be commended for their impartial application and enforcement of the guidelines! They are probably trying to make up their minds right now whether they should bump up your interact index to measly 2.0 or whether to push it to its well-deserved 4.0!

It is such a difficult task!

Way to go, bro!

Re: # 395
Krishna MorthyerafsdghjsuytreyuioplkhagfdsaPulyalam,

You can bobble your head all day long and huff & puff to the umpteenth degree and jump up n down like ur Monkey God but all o that still won’t make me responsible for ur miserable existence. There are three things that are causing you this constipation.

1) You are ugly and you are mad at the world for it, I mean its not our fault, have you seen ur parents? What do u expect coming from the mating of that, Brad Pitt? I don’t think so!

2) You are forced to worship monkeys, elephants, cow-poop and only God know what else, and every time that single digit IQ of urs kick in, it dawns some sort of realization of how maddening the whole concept is, because in order to be Hindu without a shadow of doubt, ur IQ really needs to be zero, but since it is in single digits its really a hindrance in ur contentment with ur religion so work on brining that to zero, shouldn’t be hard after all u r hindu so just focus on cow-poop and it’ll come.

3) After all of these weapons and supposed arsenal that is the result of your nation’s studiousness, I mean ugly people are good students, we do give you that, but then again with mug like your’s ain’t getting any love from femininas so books are the only solace, which is good and constructive, so what I was saying was that after all the military arsenal dawood bhai’s name is enuff to make you all pee in ur dhoti’s, cause u see courage comes mostly from balls which we have already established you won’ ever get because of ur fascination with cow-pee instead of beef. So you see the circle is complete, it all comes back to cows, start eating them instead of washing urself with their urine, and that just might be a step in the right direction.

By the way that Cab driver bid doesn’t even make sense, I am not sikh! You can make fun of me by calling me a procrastinator or womanizer or something along those lines, cause we do always get ur better looking “sabjans” on campus and are usually late to turn in our assignments. But you have to understand those sister’s of urs have met real men for the first time and they can’t keep their hands off of us so who has time for the Java project.

#
Believing (or no believing) in God has got some meaning, some reason. But believing, following, spreading and fighting for it, protecting it etc. etc. has no meaning. Religion essentially is interpretation by some human beings and is bound to create havoc if brought out of book!

Not convinced?

Ok. Go to hell! Or make the earth hell!!

Samar

#390 by abu_safwaan

[This is truly comical; we are supposed to defend our religion in front of morons who just took a shower in cow piss.]

You mean, you could ``defend`` your ``religion`` to a non-Hindu aethist?

There is NOTHING you can say to defend a crminal who beheaded 700 UNARMED civilians and sold their INNOCENT and HELPLESS women and children into slavery.

Accept it, abey Mongolian rapist-ki-aulad cab driver :) - accept the fact that you and your family has been hoodwinked by a sex-craved megalomaniac.

[Saji’s were always a clear majority but our forefathers rode their asses for 800 years.]

Some Mongolian might have ridden your great-grandmas` asses :), but MY ancestors never gave in. That`s why I am still Hindu today. And you are a stinking moosla. :D

[GET OVER IT. If your gutless forefathers had a hint of balls they should have snatched the kingdom from muslim rulers.]

We did. It`s the great land called India. :)


[But see Gobhi & bhindi are only going to give you enough energy to be the meek little existence that you were, are and will be. In order to be men you need beef my lil darkies,]

Gobhi and bhindi are good enough to whip your Paki Muslim ass every time. Heh heh heh. :D

Why are you Mooslas such losers? Eh? You cutloos lose to India, lose to Israel, get a whipping in Spain and run for your life, get Daisy Cuttered in your own country, get sodomized in Xinxiang in China, get bent over and abused in Chechnya, in Bosnia...the list is endless. So the allah-dude is not looking out for ya? Whatsup with that? Eh? Cabbie?

Eat some bacon for a change. Oh wait. That would be eating your own kind. THAT`S WHY it is prohibited...Okay...don`t have to eat your own. :) Then lick some more Arab goo.....


Ha ha ha ha..... :)

#388# and above

If they don`t doubt it is always bound to happen. You may not doubt God (Allah or anything) but you must doubt Religion. Doubter of the world, unite! Save the world!!

Samar

Re: # 391
Ohoo Mohrayy..u back again? i thought dunkin doughnuts is 24/7 but iguess they unleashed ur chains...

Am i suppose to disrespect your grandmother now? I won`t ...she was hindu..thas enuff humiliation for a life time.....hows that burger comin` monkey boy?

Re: # 390
Abu-safwaan,

Nope, no need to defend one retarded ideology against other retarded and outdated
ideologies. People have unsuccessfully tried to do it over millenia.

Thank you very much.

Re: # 390
[..we are supposed to defend our religion...]

well then why are you? your a$$ is in fire because the truth is being told... :)

anyway - it`s your ancestor who gave up the fight against the barbarians and converted to bedouinism under the threat of violence and brutality... your great-great-grandma was raped by a smelly bedouin and thus your bloodline started as a ``muslim``...

Eat a piece of bacon and be a man... stop trying to be a bedouin... :)

This is truly comical; we are supposed to defend our religion in front of morons who just took a shower in cow piss. Explain your monkey gods and gupathi puppa’s and gay dances with make up and burning of your mothers with dead fathers. Fact of the matter is that these head-bobbling “subji’s” are still pissed off at the history. Saji’s were always a clear majority but our forefathers rode their asses for 800 years. GET OVER IT. If your gutless forefathers had a hint of balls they should have snatched the kingdom from muslim rulers. But see Gobhi & bhindi are only going to give you enough energy to be the meek little existence that you were, are and will be. In order to be men you need beef my lil darkies, stop worshiping the moo and put a fork in it dumbazzess.

Salim

you picked the wrong example to compare with Mo, pubh... if you have to find a genocidal hindu figure, the history may not give you too many choices... you should rather pick one from the current crop of fools from RSS... :)

Even then - none of them will even hold a candle to what Mo of Arabia has done in his time... that`s the truth... :(

Re: # 387
watch out raw_dust. Dr shaik was sentenced to death for just using his brian and
making this innocuous statement that Muhammed did not become a Muslim before the age of forty and that his parents were non-Muslims.
You have to rememeber we are not dealing with rational human beings here.
That is why you see this eerie silence descend on this forum.

Salim_Chauhan:
Mohammad`s actions as a killer, rapist and a pedophile remain regardless the monstrous actions of Krishna or any Deity_X`s (..of you choice). Islam cannot admit it for to admit it is going to undo the whole fraud from top-down, from Allah-Koran-Sunnah to the basis of a man`s faith.

Re: # 371

Krishna,
Can you refute that your namesake, the divine Lord Krishna, encouraged, abetted, and himself participated in the killing and thorough eradication of the Kauravas? Does this mean that Hinduism tolerates and even promotes genocide?

Wow! now Salim Katua is likening Bhagwan Shri Krishna to the peadophile rapist.

Ok Random comments:

Shri Krishna trying to avert battle by going to Gandhari and adressing her as Mata. Shri Krishna bowing and paying obesiance to Gandhari and apologising for the death of her sons even though she courses him ans Shri Krishna who has said previously to her that I do not apologise to them for their death as they represented evil but to you who bore them says I would have bowed before you now (as I leave) the same way I did when I came but do not so as to prevent you from having to take the effort of blesing me again.

This to another man`s mother one who had killed his beloved nephew against the code of conduct of war.

Ok now a pertinent question how many people did Shri Krishna Enslave, how many did he enslave and how many did he expel from their homes and hearths? How many concubines how many people did he tell now since I have won you must only worship me, what did he tell to Arjun about Bhagwan Shiva did he tell him to worship this ``rival god`` or did he said I will burn you in hell fire in case you worship him.

The Kauravas asked for battle when they refused to give even 5 villages in exchange for half a kingdom.

Recall what he tells his brother Balram that when Dharam is at stake then one who watches on the sideline also shares (some of) the blame that accrues to one who fights for adharam.

Salim Mian do you want to take Mo head on with Bhagwan Shri Krishna let us take it forward.

In the end many of the Islam is Good, Muhammed is Gr8 but the Muslims (and that too a tiny %) misinterpret it will be convinced ISLAM IS EVIL.

More on the God Later and Much More on the peadophile rapist murderer still later.

BTW you have not given any answers to the question/facts etc I have mentioned earlier regarding your cult of murder mayhem and rape.

Ok Q. No 7296 to show gr8ness of Hindusim vis a vis Islam

Mention any Islamic Country (only 1) where a minority has progressed and developed in full freedom with their head held high and told the majority things like ``The problem with India is the Hindu Religion`` Sam Manekshaw to an audience in Delhi.

When I politely asked him Sam Bahadur could Cowasjee say the same thing to an audience of the majority community in Pakistan he had the good sense to be embarassed, blush and apologise.

Sanatani

#375 by tahmed32

tahmed, the bombing of Lebanon was an attempt to depopulate the entire Southern Lebanon, to drive away households by first bombing milk factories and utilities, and when that didn`t work, by bombing the households themselves. And when people fled, dropping over a million cluster bombs in their fields in the two days preceding imminent ceasefire to prevent their returning and to take away their livelihoods. It was a monumental crime against humanity.

So when injuns talk about the Litani river, they should shut up because they supported this crime.

#379 by abu_safwaan

[Krishnamorthypulaylan Abcdfgshrwiyruiogopalan,

Abbayy bhangii kii nasal, go grow some marbles first, but then again for that you would have to eat beef and You won’t cause that’s your God….i mean how can you morons even show ur face in public? I mean people who believe in monkeys n dogs, genitalia, elephants as saviors should never be allowed to say anything unless its a song n dance routine. How are you suppose to have a theological and serious debate with a stinko who just “Pavitered’” himself with cow-urine? Go fry doughnuts or something monkey-boy. ]

Abey abu_camelpissdrinkingarabslave,

All that may or may not be true, but nothing can be lower than worshipping a pedophile, mass murderer and serial rapist like this mo dude. Nothing.

Trust me. Ask any of your Taxi-cab passengers. They`ll tell you.

And post your Mongol family`s mugshots on this website. Let`s check out the ugly mugs. :)

No goats please. :)

#371 by Salim_Chauhan

[Krishna,
Can you refute that your namesake, the divine Lord Krishna, encouraged, abetted, and himself participated in the killing and thorough eradication of the Kauravas? Does this mean that Hinduism tolerates and even promotes genocide? ]

Discounting a few resident village idiots like zee_micro, I wish you could see how your response looks from a critical perspective.

The judgement whether mo was an evil man should stand by itself, regardless of whether Hinduism is an evil religion or Hindu mythical figures are actually monsters.

I take it then that you have NOTHING to refute the fact that mo killed 700 UNARMED civilians and sold their HELPLESS AND INNOCENT women and children into slavery.

That make this mo a true monster. Your mother was a good and decent woman, but she had been taught wrong and fooled by all the Islamic propaganda and upbringing.

You have been idolizing a monster. Face up to it like a man. And tell yourself that you no longer belong to any cult. Come join the race of Humanity and breathe free.

Quit the drug. You can do it.

#371 by Salim_Chauhan

Excellent rebuttal.

You shall kill the unrighteous, not out of anger and vengeance, but because it is your duty.

Indeed. That`s the dictate of `Dharma`, but Swarrier feels `dharma` might be something other than a religious dictate, though he wasn`t sure ... :~)

#377# Salim_Chauhan,
Salim Bhai,

Do you personally know these Charlies and Zeemaxes and all? Just asked because you happen to interact with them very often and that too with all the logic and fervor. Are they Pujabees? But here in our side Punjabees are considered very nice people. Progressive, hard working, intelligent, helping and most patriotic. What happened to Paki Punjabees? What I have gathered from your interacts and some of the others is that they are rather racist types resembling Bush uncle. Or he is their father or something?

Samar

[#346 by zeemax on February 26, 2007 0:40am PT
#326 by einsteinwallah
Thanks for your attempt, but actually Indian Visas are specific for both entry and exit, which HAVE to be the same ... e.g. you can`t enter from Bombay and leave from Delhi. It is for the purpose of readily matching entries with exits ( though I don`t know why it should be so given realtime technology).

My question was that every single person who exited through Atari would have been cross-checked with his entry details for overstay and stuff like that. Where is that list?]

You are right. I take back my words. I got following info from indian embassy website:

Pakistani nationals are required to register themselves at the check post of entry into India. They have to hand over one copy of the visa application form, given to them by the Indian Mission abroad while granting visa, to the immigration authorities at the check post of entry, who will in turn hand over the Residential Permit to the Pak national. The Pak national has to carry the Residential Permit along with him/her, to each place of stay, for the purpose of police reporting. This Residential Permit has to be surrendered to the Immigration Authorities at the check post of exit, at the time of departure. Further, except those who are granted visa with the endorsement “Exempted from Police Reporting”, Pak nationals have to also report their arrival and intended departure, at each place of stay as permitted in the visa, within 24 hrs. at the nearest police station.

---

It seems that information taken by police stations where you report at every place of stay is supposed to be passed on to Ministry of External Affairs. Whether a system exists for capture and transmittal of information from foreigners is different question. I am sure it exists. I am sure that it is stone age ox-cart technology. Welcome to Mahaan Bhaarat. Mahaan Bhaarat is not able to tell who exited and who was going to exit but unfortunately died.

And now is Budget time. Indian Rail Minister Lallu Yadav has introduced Rail Budget and reduced fares and introduced new trains. What use new train if you cannot prevent such needless deaths?

Krishnamorthypulaylan Abcdfgshrwiyruiogopalan,

Abbayy bhangii kii nasal, go grow some marbles first, but then again for that you would have to eat beef and You won’t cause that’s your God….i mean how can you morons even show ur face in public? I mean people who believe in monkeys n dogs, genitalia, elephants as saviors should never be allowed to say anything unless its a song n dance routine. How are you suppose to have a theological and serious debate with a stinko who just “Pavitered’” himself with cow-urine? Go fry doughnuts or something monkey-boy.

...and this exchange of ``thoughts`` on UP with a Pakistani Punjabi explains a lot:

#3 by Charlie on February 26, 2007 2:36pm PT
salim, we punjabis don`t care who was killed in Samjhota express. All of them were ugly dark skinned mohajirs visiting their real actual homeland? Ok?


#4 by Salim_Chauhan on February 26, 2007 2:50pm PT
#3, Charlie,
Thank you for your honesty - as ugly as it sounds, at least you have said what most of your type believe.

#5 by Salim_Chauhan on February 26, 2007 3:06pm PT
Charlie, {``salim, we punjabis don`t care who was killed in Samjhota express. All of them were ugly dark skinned mohajirs visiting their real actual homeland? Ok? ``}

Charlie,
Is it any wonder why the feeling of patriotism has dwindled among the other three provinces. The Paki Punjus have destroyed Pakistan. Look at the evidence:

East Pakistan
Baluchistan
Sindh, including Karachi and Hyderabad
NWFP
``Azad`` Kashmir, Baltistan

The mostly Paki Punju army has conducted mass killings of Pakistanis in every province - except Punjab.

The difference between the people of Karachi and those of Lahore

It has been just a couple of days since the Samjhota Express was the target of terrorism. This violent and senseless act resulted in the death of many people and caused the suffering of even more people on both sides of the border. While the people of Karachi and parts of India were busy burying their dead and providing assistance to the injured, the people of Lahore were celebrating Basant with colorful clothing and even more colorful kites - music and dancing made the celebrations even happier.

Contrast this festive atmosphere with how the kind people of Karachi behaved right after the devastating earthquake in northern Pakistan. Karachiites turned their full attention to providing aid for the injured and homeless victims of this natural catastrophe. Karachiites overwhelmed the logistical capacity of the Pakistani Army by massing huge amounts of clothing, blankets, and supplies for the survivors. Even the religious Eid celebrations were half-hearted, limited, and in some cases not even conducted. Many people decided not to wear new clothes out of sorrow for the sufferings of ``fellow`` Pakistanis.

The only explanation for this dichotomy is the fact that the majority of victims of the Samjhota Express tragedy were Urdu-speaking Pakistanis from Karachi and their Indian relatives traveling to Pakistan.

The difference is clear for all to see. These are the same Lahori Paki Punjus who vehemently oppose even the repatriation of stranded Urdu-speaking Pakistanis in Bangladesh.

Maybe next time, the people of Karachi will reconsider their attitude toward the Paki Punju ``fellow`` Pakistanis up north.

#375, Do you always waste your time keeping score over the dialogue between two other people? Now, that is the calling card of a real loser.

zeemax: This is what I was trying to bring to your attention - you merely lose credibility when you try to twist facts instead of writing straight. And so you obviously lost your credibility with Plats who made this joking remark to me regarding your post: ``Now you know - Israel made it all the way to the Litani river because you didn`t show enough online grief for Lebanese civilians. ``

And the best you could do was make the meaningless retort ``Re the Litani river, what`ve you hindoos got to do with that? ``.

#373 plats8 {``Of course it has tolerated/promoted genocide, and it will again...which religion doesn`t ? ``}

Plats8,
I am inclined to agree with that statement with some rewording -

Of course it has tolerated/promoted genocide, and it will again...which religion, as practiced and promoted by its priests, kings, leaders doesn`t ?

That is exactly why I choose to follow my own conscience and not provide carte blanche support to any organized or disorganized gang of god squads.

Re: # 371

Salim,

``Does this mean that Hinduism tolerates and even promotes genocide?``

Of course it has tolerated/promoted genocide, and it will again...which religion
doesn`t ?

#359 zeemax {``As for the `Bihari` issue, tahmed saheb doesn`t know that these aren`t `Biharis`. These are the same UP people who crossed over to the East instead of the West Pakistan through Bihar. And now this label is stuck on them. These are urdu speaking people who must be immediately repatriated. ``}

Zee Bhai,
Thank you for your support of the long overdue repatriation of Pakistanis stranded in BD since 1971. Tahmed`s bigotry in calling them all ``Biharis`` is indicative of his racist attitude and blatant hypocrisy - as if being a ``Bihari`` is somehow inferior to being a Paki Punju. I don`t mean to demean ALL Pakistani Punjabis, but Chacha Buttees is the kind of bigot and hypocrite who gives his people a bad name. This jackass refuses to get off his high horse of morality, all the while admonishing people about how they should behave. What a loser!

#366 Krishna_abcd {``Cut the bullshit. Doesn`t impress me. Do you have ANYTHING to refute the FACT that he killed 700 unarmed civilians and sold their helpless and inncoent women and children into slavery?

If you CAN refute it - do it. Otherwise acknowledge that you cannot, or, as is more usual on Chowk, conveniently shut up. ``}

Krishna,
Can you refute that your namesake, the divine Lord Krishna, encouraged, abetted, and himself participated in the killing and thorough eradication of the Kauravas? Does this mean that Hinduism tolerates and even promotes genocide?

If you can see the ridiculous exercise in which you are engaged, there may be hope for hateful people like you. :)

Here are the ``facts`` supporting my allegation above:

Ref: http://www.crystallotus.com/vishnu/12.htm


The Pandavas and their common wife, defeated in a game of dice, were driven out of Indraprastha. ...``This is against dharma,`` said Krishna. ``The Pandavas kept their word. You must too.`` ``No,`` said the Kauravas. ... ``Then you will get what you deserve - a war,`` declared Krishna, ``And none will prevent the slaughter of the unrighteous Kauravas.``

As the Pandavas and Kauravas prepared for war, Balarama said, ``Spilling blood for land or law makes no sense.`` He refused to fight for either side. ``If this war does not take place, adharma will reign supreme, and pralaya will destroy the world before its time is up,`` argued Krishna. Krishna took up the reins of Arjuna`s chariot. ``Come Arjuna, help me establish dharma on earth.``

Before the battle began, Arjuna lost his will to fight. He put down his weapons and cried, ``How can I kill my own cousins for a piece of land?`` ``This battle,`` said Krishna, ``is not for your land or your crown; it is for dharma. You shall kill the unrighteous, not out of anger and vengeance, but because it is your duty. You are only an instrument of the divine being who rotates the cycle of life.`` ``Who is this divine being?`` asked Arjuna. ``It is Vishnu,`` said Krishna, revealing his true self, his vishvarupa. ``Behold, all that exists, exists within me; all that happens is because of me. Do not delude yourself into believing that it is you who create or kill. I am the cause of all events - the creator and the destroyer. Abandon yourself into my care, detach yourself from the result, and do as I say - I caused the war, I will decide its fate.`` The words of Krishna became the song of the divine, the Bhagavad Gita, that made Arjuna see his actions in clear light. Doubts cleared, intention clarified, decision taken, Arjuna picked up his bow and mounted the chariot. Krishna blew his conch and led Arjuna towards the enemy.


The battle on the plains of Kurukshetra was no ordinary war; it was a battle to relieve the earth-goddess Bhoodevi of the burden of adharma. Using every strategy of war, including guile, Krishna orchestrated the defeat of the unrighteous Kauravas. One by one, their commanders fell to the ground, struck by the ruthless sword of justice.On the final day of the war, encouraged by Krishna, Bhima killed Duryodhana, the leader of the Kauravas, striking him beneath the navel with his mace. This outraged the kings of earth who condemned Krishna for breaking the sacred rules of war. ``Where was this indignation when .a helpless Draupadi was being abused by the Kauravas? Where was this sense of fair play when the earth-goddess Bhoodevi, burdened by your wickedness, begged for mercy? What use are your rules and laws when they do not uphold truth and justice?`` asked the lord as he led the Pandavas to victory.

Draupadi, Bhoodevi incarnate, washed her hair with the blood of the Kauravas and tied her hair. ``Nothing burdens the earth anymore, there is dharma everywhere,`` said the earth-goddess thanking Vishnu, her divine protector.The fallen kings reviled Krishna. The triumphant Pandavas cheered Krishna. Krishna accepted it all, unfluttered by the rage, unflattered by the praise. Under his guidance, the Pandavas reestablished righteousness on earth.

Re: # 368

Zeemax,

Hmm... you are making assumptions about my religion with very little info. Anyway,
Hindus probably have as much to do with Litani river as an average Pakistani,
repeated attempts of the Pakistani state to ingratiate itself with Arabs notwithstanding.

So, are 50% of Indian children malnourished or 50% of the entire population (children,
adults, and children pretending to be adults) ? Am a bit confused. Does one exclude
Muslim Indians from that count, since by virtue of their religion, they are always wel-fed ?

Re: # 352 zee

Very nice houri, dude... post some more pics of buxom kashmiri houris...

But who are darkies standing besides her? are they kashmiris too?...

#367 by plats8

The thing about the breasts was just an aside to hamidm. Some of your women have great boobs ... no doubt. Still ugly though ...

Re the Litani river, what`ve you hindoos got to do with that?

You should worry about the 50% i.e. half of all your entire population`s undernourished starving children in this big gutter of a cesspool you call hindoostan ...

:~)

Re: # 352

Zeemax,

Arrey bhai, of course they cannot. We are all well aware of the chivalrous martial
traditions present on the discontent-free side of the border.

You didn`t quite clarify the big-breast IT/pre-requisite thingie though. Is that used
as a recruiting condition in Pakistan ? If so, one has to admire the civilizational
advances you have made.

About the Madrasi/Bengali thing - people care about the distinction just as much they
care about the looks of an average Pakistani. It is not a topic of conversation unless
you wish to be permanently stuck in a teenage of sorts, which is where you are I
assume.

One parting question - exactly how many times did you fall on your head as a child ?
If you didn`t, that`s even more disturbing, given the layers of insecurity you display.

Tahmed #362,

Now you know - Israel made it all the way to the Litani river because you didn`t show
enough online grief for Lebanese civilians.

#356 by Salim_Chauhan

[The ``facts`` that you will quote are your own selective interpretation of history as documented by one group of Arab chroniclers as compared to another group. ]

Cut the bullshit. Doesn`t impress me. Do you have ANYTHING to refute the FACT that he killed 700 unarmed civilians and sold their helpless and inncoent women and children into slavery?

If you CAN refute it - do it. Otherwise acknowledge that you cannot, or, as is more usual on Chowk, conveniently shut up.

#364 by samar1982

Go Sir, and remain `gone` .. Thanks.

Who says you (all) are gloating? You are condoling since 19th instant by rubbing your Hindu/Muslim a**s! I am sure you will be left with two o o after 13th and 40th day respectively. Wait till then!! I can`t bear all this crap for long, so I am off. Enjoy yourselves.

Samar

#362 by tahmed32

You were supporting hamidm2 who was openly gloating over the death of Lebanese civilians as `scum`.

As your `Pir Saheb` says, ``Either you`re with us, or you`re with the enemy``. Your supporting hamidm is the same as saying the same thing i.e. going by your rules, not mine. To me there are shades of grey. To you, only black & white.

So I hold you fully responsible, and forcefully condemn your stand during the summer war. You, Sir, should be ashamed of yourself now that more facts are laid out which you were blind to see at that time. You`ve been proven wrong. And the Lebanese children victims will remember that.

zeemax #355 ``You never once condoled the victims.``

That is very different than gloating over the victims. Like I said, please dont make up stories. That merely makes you less credible.

salim: you are a khaali matka. rattle on, lowlife.

#358 by samar1982

... and I`m sure you`re henceforth headed towards the site where you can rub your hindoo/mirzai ass ..

...correction...

till Israel supports it .. :~)

#357 by Salim_Chauhan

Thanks Salim. Let the `charlatan` answer.

As for the `Bihari` issue, tahmed saheb doesn`t know that these aren`t `Biharis`. These are the same UP people who crossed over to the East instead of the West Pakistan through Bihar. And now this label is stuck on them. These are urdu speaking people who must be immediately repatriated.

But tahmed saheb will not support your cause till Israel it .. :~)

Zeemax, Salim Chauhan, Sanatani, tahmed etc, etc.

You all Hindus and Musalmans will fight each other and loose to the Mullahs . You bas****ds are writing sex on the graves of the victims. Don`t know what has Allah planned for you! Though I am not puritan I want to pray for your sins!! There are many sites where you can rub your A**s!!

Samar

{``#344 by zeemax on February 26, 2007 0:02am PT
#320 by tahmed32

tahmed saheb, you should be the last person to chastise sanatani for gloating over death of his enemies ... because it was you who was gloating over the death of lebanese civilians because they were acting as `human shields` for your enemies ... remember?``}

Zee Bhai,
Yes, I remember. The context was his consistent theme of supporting Israeli actions in Lebanon. He trivialized the loss of civilian life in Lebanon. But this is not anything unusual for him. This is the same bigot and hypocrite who waves the Pakistani flag, but then is emotionally resolute against the repatriation of stranded Urdu-speaking Pakistanis from BD. He thinks that by lumping these unfortunate Pakistanis as ``Biharis,`` he somehow is able to justify his prejudice. The man is a fraud and there is no need to research specific posts - many people here know of this charlatan`s hypocrisy.

#334 krishna_abcd {``Okay. Let`s begin with one of the many heinous crimes committed by this guy. ``}

Krishna Alphabet Ji,
The ``facts`` that you will quote are your own selective interpretation of history as documented by one group of Arab chroniclers as compared to another group. If you go to the ``Sword of Truth website you may learn even more such ``truths,`` including some very imaginary accounts of the Nehru clan, which is certainly of a more recent period. If you seek the truth, as you put it, don`t look for it in the gutters.

#354 by tahmed32

You were blaming Hizballah for bringing in the murderers, and not the murderers who were doing the muredering. You never once condoled the victims.

Now sanatani is blaming Pak for the murders, and not condoling the victims. Same ... same.

#344 zeemax: please dont make up stories, zeemax. it reduces your credibility, that is all. cut and paste where you claim i was gloating over the death of lebanese civilians.

Problem with the west vis-a-vis Muslim world is as follows:

`The contradiction of liberalism is that its commitment to tolerance and freedom conflicts when the intolerant demand the freedom to be illiberal. It is also the case that liberals become ugly and intolerant in their own eyes when they use force to make others become liberal.`
-Nick Cohen in the Guardian.

Samar

#351 by plats8

Madrasi ... calcutta-ite ... who cares. They all look the same.

And see below ... do you think people who look like this can ever live with pichkoos?

Re: # 345

Zeemax,

Didn`t realise that having big breasts was sort of a pre-requisite in the IT industry
these days. Have they made it a mandatory thing in Pakistan ?

Also, the news header says the girl is in Kolkata (or Calcutta, if you prefer),
making it unlikely that she is a Madrasi. I know that it is a trivial detail, but figured
that bigotry-free minds such as your`s ought to distinguish, hai na ?

#349 by myself

[Why don`t you post your and your family`s mugs on this website and let`s see what those rapes by the Mongols has done for your family.]

Btw, no goats allowed. Only human mugshots.

#347 by abu_safwaan

[...when 2 uglos mate the end result is usuallyyy Krishna Abcdfghrtyujhytreuytoilopujaran. ..]

Why don`t you post your and your family`s mugs on this website and let`s see what those rapes by the Mongols has done for your family.

Put your money where your mouth is, boy.

#338 by veeresh

.... I`m talking about Immigration lists and not the railway pax lists.

Re: # 343
ouchhh..we r reduced to pickin on spellin` now r we? I m gettin 2 ya now rnt I?hahahahahaha, u r in way over ur head here u dumb-azz, monkey worshipin, cow-piss drinkin, mother-burnin, head-bobblin, donut-fryin, sleep-inn night clerk. Your mother didnt commit suicide she died of shame when u came outta her, even she wasn`t expecting a mouse, but then again, when 2 uglos mate the end result is usuallyyy Krishna Abcdfghrtyujhytreuytoilopujaran. hahahahahahaha. Lemme get back to my bbq now..ur gods r extra yummyy tonite umm.

#326 by einsteinwallah

Thanks for your attempt, but actually Indian Visas are specific for both entry and exit, which HAVE to be the same ... e.g. you can`t enter from Bombay and leave from Delhi. It is for the purpose of readily matching entries with exits ( though I don`t know why it should be so given realtime technology).

My question was that every single person who exited through Atari would have been cross-checked with his entry details for overstay and stuff like that. Where is that list?

#322 by hamidm2

......and getting all excited about the indian it boom like little girls who have just discovered breasts ...........

What breasts? These ugly madrasi IT types have mosquito bites for breasts ..

Here`s proof:

#320 by tahmed32

tahmed saheb, you should be the last person to chastise sanatani for gloating over death of his enemies ... because it was you who was gloating over the death of lebanese civilians because they were acting as `human shields` for your enemies ... remember?

#341 by abu_safwaan

[hahahahahahahaha..it must have struck a nerve...]

So it feels bad to realize that you, and your family have been worshipping a pedophile for all these years? Truth hurts, son.


[thank u for the proofs of immense beauty, curiosuly enough they are all boys, hmmm ladies and gentleman we have a fruity ``Sabji`` here...my what a disgusting thought..anyway..u forgot to mention Bal Thakray, Uma Bharti, Gandhi, actually any RSS woould suffice. As for the list of ur gay crushes..i m sure most of em has some mughal in them. Its no secret that the ``Better``(comparitively speaking offcourse) looking ``Sabjans`` opt for Muslim men on campuses here in USA, n how can u blame them, have u seen hindoos on campus, for the love of monkey god dont wear running shoes with dockers.. ]

There`s no Mongol in my family, to be sure, but some smelly Mongol got into your great-grandnanny for sure. :)



[By the way r yo all still burning ur mothers with ur dead fathers...another innocent quandry.. ]

Our women committed suicide when they found out that their husband was dead, and the pedophile`s army was coming their way to add them to their harem (okay to rape what your right hand holds...). That`s because my predecessors had courage and self-respect, unlike your great-grandma. :)


[give my regards to the gunpathii puppaa.. u guys arent seriosu about this elephant god sheaattt r yaa??]

Yes. We like elephant gods. With long trunks. And monkey-gods.


By the way, it`s ``comparative``, not ``comparitive``, ``of course`` not ``offcourse``. Try to get some education when you`re not busy driving your Taxi-cab customers.

#155#parthaab
Throughout this discussion I liked your comment the best. In fact, everything starts with the belief in God and deviates to believing in Religion, Scriptures, Traditions and lastly the Sword (or Bomb)! If they believe in God, who is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience, merciful and just, than, is there any point in showing your submission to Him. If God is all-powerful, knows everything and is just and merciful, what is the need to pray. Should not he reward or punish only according to one’s deeds? Should He not allow Himself to be impressed by the show of someones venerations? Is He a boss in some government office or what? If he lets the culprits get away by taking bribes (sic!) from them what will happen to his Godly justice.
Only God can save the world from the mess created by Religions!!

Samar

Re: # 337

hahahahahahahaha..it must have struck a nerve...thank u for the proofs of immense beauty, curiosuly enough they are all boys, hmmm ladies and gentleman we have a fruity ``Sabji`` here...my what a disgusting thought..anyway..u forgot to mention Bal Thakray, Uma Bharti, Gandhi, actually any RSS woould suffice. As for the list of ur gay crushes..i m sure most of em has some mughal in them. Its no secret that the ``Better``(comparitively speaking offcourse) looking ``Sabjans`` opt for Muslim men on campuses here in USA, n how can u blame them, have u seen hindoos on campus, for the love of monkey god dont wear running shoes with dockers..

By the way r yo all still burning ur mothers with ur dead fathers...another innocent quandry..

give my regards to the gunpathii puppaa.. u guys arent seriosu about this elephant god sheaattt r yaa??

#339 by mohar11

[Now, even in the gentle buddhist land, islamic people cannot live in peace...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/world/asia/26thailand.html?pagewanted=2&hp

...Entire Buddhist communities have also fled in a “de factor ethnic cleansing,” said Zachary Abuza, the author of “Militant Islam in Southeast Asia,” ]

This is YET another example of a Hateful Hindu lying through his teeth and twisting facts to blacken the good name of the most peaceful religion (the only truly peaceful religion) on the planet.

Can`t you, and the hateful Thai Buddhists get rid of your hatred? Why are you Hindus so hateful? Like the hateful Buddhists, like the hateful Jews, the hateful Christians, the hateful Parsees, and the hateful Commies?

Why can`t you guys see that Islam is a religion of PEACE?

Eh?

Now, even in the gentle buddhist land, islamic people cannot live in peace...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/world/asia/26thailand.html?pagewanted=2&hp

...Entire Buddhist communities have also fled in a “de factor ethnic cleansing,” said Zachary Abuza, the author of “Militant Islam in Southeast Asia,”

...“We really wonder about their identity and how they can be doing this,” she said of the insurgents. “They are destroying their own society. They kill the teachers. They kill the teachers who teach their own children.”

Much is being made about lists and tickets on this train, when the simple truth is that for the domestic legs, whether from Delhi to Attari or LaHore to Wagah, there was simply no control of any sort.

I would hazard a guess as well as state a common perception, that there would have been enough W/T travellers as well as the standard issue hawkers/urchins on board, on both legs. In addition, there would be a few ``extras`` of the sort we see in trains all over the sub-Continent, the petty crooks, the sharpies, etc.

nb/318 - bits and pieces, mostly. Unable to perform proper ``gusal`` also.

Various/xxx - I can not understand why you find it strange that given a choice of a reserved berth at say 160/oo rupees, and an unreserved seat at say 120/oo, there are many people in our countries who would opt for the 120/oo option? Especially in an 11 wagon train with around 600 pax on board, and if said people are travelling with extended families? Once again, please visit Wagah/Attari to understand the poverty that travels on this train before going on and on without understanding ground realities. How many of you will understand that person ``a`` travels to India and often person ``b`` travels back, on the same documents, for a variety of reasons?

And while we are at plastic identity cards, now we will need totally fire-proof ones also, right? So then what`s the solution, metal dog-tags for all, that`s a good one too.

pmishra2/291- very valid. But then governance all over the world has no issue collaborating with the fundoos, right, so why single out the Indian Government?

delhiwala/257 - there are logistical problems with you solution. Too many hair baths, for one.

ZahraJ/255 - well, a cheap way to cross borders will be needed for India and Pakistan, and the best would be to run very short distance small trains from Amritsar to Lahore. I will once again implore my Pakistani interactors here to visit Wagah and LaHore to see the India train come in to get a grip on facts before passing long judgements about passenger lists and ID cards. Sometimes I think many people here have no idea of what real poverty in our countries is . . . while at the same time wanting to fulfil at lowest cost the urge to travel for pilgrimiage or meeting with families or even claiming inheritances or switching family members.

#335 by abu_safwaan

[Krishna Abcdyerefdehjuoiyratlksjhputharipujaran,

Do you dispute the fact that you guys drink cow piss and that you oppose deodrant and good looks like they were Muslims?

What do you have to say about that? an innocent quandry..]


abu_peadophileworshippercameldungbrain,

In the looks department, who`s better looking of the following:

Dharmendra or Dilip Kumar?

Sunny Deol or Shah Rukh Khan?

Hrithhik Roshan or Amir Khan?

Musharraf or Rajiv Gandhi?

What do you have to say about that?


And has brushing teeth and showering caught on yet amongst your goatherding beradars?

Just curious...

: )

The familiar Hindus vs Islam has begun on chowk once again....

Re: # 334
Krishna Abcdyerefdehjuoiyratlksjhputharipujaran,

Do you dispute the fact that you guys drink cow piss and that you oppose deodrant and good looks like they were Muslims?

What do you have to say about that? an innocent quandry..

#332 by Salim_Chauhan

[Krishna Maharaj,
What facts? Were you present in 7th century Arabia that you are such an expert on who behaved well and who behaved poorly?]

Salim beradar,

What facts? Ok, here we go again.

Where do we begin?

Okay. Let`s begin with one of the many heinous crimes committed by this guy.

How about the FACT that mo beheaded 700 unarmed civilians and sold their HELPLESS AND INNOCENT women and children into slavery?

Do you have anything to dispute this?

Hamidm mian - don`t worry too much about krishna or sanatani... they are not going to blow themselves up in crowded places...

But just today, a female suicide bomber blew herself up inside a college - 40 are dead... there is a picture in nytimes where a security man is picking up tiny body parts from a large pool of blood... so dramatic an image that very cogently reflects the conditions of islamic people...

very sad indeed...

#327 krishna_abcd {``Even if you have nothing to refute any facts? ``}

Krishna Maharaj,
What facts? Were you present in 7th century Arabia that you are such an expert on who behaved well and who behaved poorly? I am sure that you are selectively relying on one set of 7th century or later Arabs to malign another set of Arabs to give credence to your own hateful conclusions. Maybe you were embedded with Abu Sufyan and his clan. :)

#307 by hamidm2

[krishna mian,

.......... like the jihadis, you are so predictable !]


Hamidm bhaiyya,

I think you should start by looking into the mirror. I`ve thought of this many times, but never felt like bringing it up, but have you noticed, how almost every time you have to say anything negative about Islam, you have to say something bad about ``those horrible Hindoos`` to reaffirm your Paki creds, and kind of balance it out? It is so damn predictable.

And it is very similar to a very common Islamic affliction as well. Every time some muslim says anything critical about anything in Islam on TV, they begin by saying - ``I`m a devout Muslim, [insert miscellaneous claims of piousness here]..blah blah blah blah...``. I guess they don`t want to get killed by those who suppress criticism in the same manner as mo did many times in his violent life.

Grow up already.

Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:30:26 PM


Numro-Uno

(neighbor-what ?)
neighbo’ wa?
Nombo wo
Number one

Numro-uno (to be precise)



Indian sub-continent, when seen, as a united front against terrorism, becomes a house-of-balls for players of no end.

Peace here? … not my way .. buddy.

Princess says, when there is no flood of thick-waters, there is no pleasure in such games.

Even the oldest of aged neighbours would never settle for eternal peace, the grave inhabitants too have sense of movement with and for their neighbouring holes.

Then why shouldn’t Indian guys, stay calm, when most know, silence and no movement means dead-drain.

Silence-n-no-move

Salacanamo ?


Why shouldn’t we sent our expiratoracts towards the next door medical college “four-wheeler-beds”

They don’t belong here, they don’t fit in there too.

Let’s start sending our few people who do know their ones in Pakistan, then they’ll settle there with their own or otherwise residences and make love and peace with the ones who could accommodate them in theirs.

After multiplication of these people, they’ll become a permanent source of constant extra-receptors, in Pakistan.

How many we should send to Pakistan, as pakistani’s ?

Unmm … let the agency decide that.

o.k. says them.


And then people from the lowest possible level start to reveal them selves as Pakistani citizens. With true addresses and real relations with those with living in pakistan’s variety of cities.
We do have our real relatives in Pakistan, they are our such n such uncle and/or such n such ‘mol-o-puller’

Eitherways, its like creating big spread of yogurt from just one or two spoons of it.

When quite a few have settled, then we’ll be able to send huge number of those who are familiar with the method creating a havoc in their society and cities.

Obtaining residence, passport or permanent citizen as a born Pakistani was never a problem neither it is can be ever. Since most offices employ our own beloved urdu-cum-hindi sonz and daughters.

As then these urdu-cum-hindi rule the media of Pakistan, where audition varies with locales ability.

Why bother to go for English as a first language when the deal-of-all is to keep them non-technicalz.

Keep them in their own local locale’s ring, says western ends.

Yes-sir-re says “usree-u-sra”

And gujrat then takes over, most of us are Indian based says pakistan’s president, but rest assure, old punjabi’s take frequent to-n-fro when urdu speaking people start to jump for their left-i-neighbours.

Left-i-nents.

Loot-n-enter

Take all the banned items from India, as a gift of birfee, and you’ll get good stuff there.

Fire-crackers, is a specialty of Indian expatriates. Cooking beyond tongue’s taste with exceptional spicy inclusion makes people fall for the thick-ghee based curries, and flying kites started from those who used to fall for others strings. Women, I mean.


Why create such a mess for your neighbours, Gandhi gee? (the junior one)


Shahzada adnan majeed
Prisms_inverted@yahoo.com

Re: # 328

krishna mian,

...... i have no such delusions ....... it was meant as advice to your parents - if they had spanked you when you were growing up you would have grown up .......

#322 by hamidm2 on February 25, 2007 8:11am PT
Re: # 321

[...... people like krishna and sanatani just need a good spanking...]


Hamidm bhayya,


I think you should keep your sadomasochistic/gay fantasies limited within your home, which is where they belong. We don`t all need to share in your Paki delusional fantasies.

: )

#321 by Salim_Chauhan

[Krishna Bhayya,
First Sanatani Maharaj and now you again - it seems that like most creatures, even right-wing Hindutva types come in pairs. :) ]

You HAVE to say something, don`t you? Even if you have nothing to refute any facts? For the idiots on Chowk, that might impress, but this won`t make any impression on people who can read straight.

[#319 by zeemax on February 25, 2007 1:01am PT
#318 by nb

No nb. The ones who survived are known right? The balance must be those dead. It is 59 Pakistanis out of 67 total. But India is not even giving the list of the total visas granted for exit via that train. There are relatives crowding the railway ministry asking about their loved ones who are still listed as missing and many of them already buried in India. It`s a mess.]

If you read following story at BBC news site it is clear that Sixty-year-old Kamruddin boarded an unreserved car of Samjhauta Express. Indian Railways issues unreserved tickets by which is meant that you just pay fare but you are not assured of a seat. If you buy a reserved ticket you pay fare and reservation charge. The way it works is that with reserved ticket you may have a ``confirmed`` seat. Or you may be in ``Waiting List``.

If you do not have ``confirmed`` reserved ticket or you have a ``fare only`` (unreserved) ticket then you have option of getting a seat in ``reserved`` cars if there is last minute cancellation. Basically you approach a conductor who wear distinctive black blazer jacket and carry IR badge pinned on jacket. These people carry latest computer printout showing latest situation about reservation. If there are no cancellations then also you can approach them in hope that somebody will miss the train and then that person`s unoccupied seat will be up for grabs and you may get it. It seems that Mr. Kamruddin did not get a seat or did not try to get. So he boarded an unreserved car. There may be zero or more unreserved cars in any Indian Railway train.

As for what you are calling ``visas granted for exit`` my guess is that there is no such thing as ``visas granted for exit``. My guess is visas are granted for entry. But Indian Government might be recording a person`s details somewhere when a Pakistani citizen leaves the country. My guess is that they record details when conductor checks the ticket or at Atari station just before crossing border. It should be responsibility of Indian Railways to make sure that travelers who travel by a train which is known to cross border that either they are going to a destination before border or they are carrying proper travel document. In my opinion they should insist on a Photo ID and Proof of Address for all passengers on such trains.

India blast victims` security questions


India blast victims` security questions
By Soutik Biswas
BBC News, Panipat



Kamruddin says he passed out after the blasts
Sixty-year-old Kamruddin, a milkman from Multan in Pakistan, lies wheezing in the only bed in a curious ``VIP emergency room`` in the chaotic government hospital in Panipat, India.

He does not remember any security person checking him when he boarded the crowded unreserved carriage of the Samjhauta (Friendship) Express at Old Delhi railway station on Sunday night.

***

Re: # 324

salim mian,

.... you are a trouble maker !

#322 hamidm2 {``like little girls who have just discovered breasts ........... on the other hand, a lot of pakis scare me because it seems they are one taraweeh away from becoming full fledged jihadis .......

...... people like krishna and sanatani just need a good spanking, guys like urstruly and tahmed need more extreme measures like exposure to menstruating women and pork rinds .........``}


Hamidum Sahib,
LOL - Injuns with lemons! Perhaps we can make lemonade with them and wean them away from fire water. :)
Perhaps you are being a bit too harsh against the Pakis you mentioned - menstruating swine and female hinds is quite a potent mixture. :)

#313 Anil {``But what if the Creator is nothing other than the human mind? ...
I would not do away with Mosques... These are beautiful expressions of human minds creation. ``}

Anil Bahi,
I have often thought about that - I agree with you that the human mind is absolutely divine. Even the various scriptures say that ``He breathed his spirit into Adam`` and that ``God created man in His own image.`` What we call conscience, spirit, etc may very well be elements of the Creator.

As for mosques, I agree with you. They are indeed beautiful - as are many of the splendid churches, temples, and statues. :)

Re: # 321

salim mian,

`` seems that like most creatures, even right-wing Hindutva types come in pairs`` .......... except you and al-lah mian .... unless you two consider yourselves to be a couple

....... but seriously speaking, these hindutva types seem to be an aberration because all the horrible hindoos i know - and god help me, i know lots of them - seem to be fairly nice guys even if they can`t stop shaking their damn heads and getting all excited about the indian it boom like little girls who have just discovered breasts ........... on the other hand, a lot of pakis scare me because it seems they are one taraweeh away from becoming full fledged jihadis .......

...... people like krishna and sanatani just need a good spanking, guys like urstruly and zeemax need more extreme measures like exposure to menstruating women and pork rinds .........

#300 Krishna_abcd {``The unholy prophet`s life was one unending saga of gory bloodletting, brutality, murder, mayhem, looting and rape. His followers and those who came later were only emulating him in this accursed cult of personality. ``}

Krishna Bhayya,
First Sanatani Maharaj and now you again - it seems that like most creatures, even right-wing Hindutva types come in pairs. :)

Muhiyal #309 Talking of ``wholehearted cursing``, rest assured sir that it is never done unless appropriate by any international standard (e.g. when applied to the esteemed mr. santani, who was gloating over the death of the samjhota train passengers).

You are not missing much by coming infrequently to chowk. I think you have a unique story to tell though (having migrated to India from Pakistan after partition), and perhaps someday you will have time to tell us more about it on chowk.

#318 by nb

No nb. The ones who survived are known right? The balance must be those dead. It is 59 Pakistanis out of 67 total. But India is not even giving the list of the total visas granted for exit via that train. There are relatives crowding the railway ministry asking about their loved ones who are still listed as missing and many of them already buried in India. It`s a mess.

Re: # 317
Could they be unknown because they`re too disfigured to be identified?? Poor people in India and Pakistan don`t have dental records.

#290 by okhla99

samjhautas unknown dead buried in haryana village

Why Unknown? Where the eff are the passenger lists?

Even if the hinuds are too incompetent to have train passenger lists even on a special train, surely they must have lists of to whom they granted visas to travel by THAT train and from THAT particular point of entry/exit.

Everyone knows injuns give restricted point of entry/exit visas.

There`s something fishy here. Injuns are hiding something. C`mon ... stop covering it up.

[#314] by myself

All people travelling to border districts should be required to carry PAID.

should read

All people travelling by government operated transport to border districts should be required to carry PAID.

Also probably I should change the acronym to PIDA standing for Photo-ID-cum-Address

Given that the discussion has predictably moved from the burning train to the
usual Hindu-Muslim ``mine is bigger than your`s contest``, here`s something relevant
from a somewhat bright guy:

1) Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
-- Steven Weinberg, in a dialog on religion with other scientists, 1999, quoted from ``The
Constitution Guarantees Freedom From Religion`` an open letter to US Vice-Presidential
candidate Senator Joseph Lieberman, issued by the Freedom From Religion Foundation on
August 28, 2000

2) It`s a consequence of the experience of science. As you learn more and more about the universe, you find you can understand more and more without any reference to supernatural intervention, so you lose interest in that possibility. Most scientists I know don`t care enough about religion even to call themselves atheists. And that, I think, is one of the great things about science -- that it has made it possible for people not to be religious.
-- Steven Weinberg, quoted in Natalie Angier, ``Confessions of a Lonely Atheist,`` New York Times Magazine, January 14, 2001

[#301 by tolkinin on February 24, 2007 3:21pm PT
#298 Mr.Einstein are you r so nive to think that iNdia can implement computerised tracking of passengers adresses etc...In a country where 1/3 of passengers travel without any ticket including even platform ticket.....there is not will or intention of impementing any rule except when the enforcer has interst of lining his poc ket for which this rule would be god send......]

I am not asking for mandatory and universal restriction requiring that passengers carry Photo-cum-Address ID (PAID) card. For a start all travellers of trains like Samjhauta Express should be required to carry PAID. All people travelling to border districts should be required to carry PAID. Travelling by government operated transport is not constitutionally guaranteed right. It is a privilege but not right. All privileges come with reasonable restrictions. In starting phase not many will be required to carry PAIDs. In case of Samjhauta Express almost all travellers would have their passport and I thought all passports have at least the address of residence when they were issued. Gradually system should be spread to interior region.

You are writing that ``1/3 of passengers travel without any ticket`` etc. That should stop. Why should such irresponsible behaviour be allowed to continue? If you cannot get PAID you do not travel by trains. The very fact that railways are cheap will be an incentive for getting PAID. Right now voter identity cards are being issued. But a person may not be voting. And it is okay. You want to travel by IR, you get a PAID. Else travel by ox-cart for what I care.

Re: # 294

Salim Sahib:

``...To me the most attractive aspect of Islam is the direct relationship between each human being and the Creator...``

I have been impressed by your thought process and expression. But what if the Creator is nothing other than the human mind?

A human mind which has continued to evolve redefine thoughts - of possible and impossible kinds, or real and imaginary type. After all what you call ``Creator`` and what its form is etc., etc. is a thought of your mind, based on the knowledge your mind has and continue to acquire from whatever sources, be it Quran, Bible, Geeta or Einstein`s Theory of Relativity etc...

``To be honest, we don`t even need mosques to be Muslims - and if we can do away with beautiful mosques...``

I would not do away with Mosques... These are beautiful expressions of human minds creation. I see the symmetry in their architecture very elegant and beautiful. A while ago, I read about Islamic art, and how geometry and symmetry influenced it. The reason this author gave was because sculpting or painting human form was not allowed. Clearly to someone like me, it shows how human found alternate form of expressions.

It seems human mind is the creator of all expressions. We do not need to go far, it is with us. We can feed it with all kinds of knowledge to turn into a religous fanatic to a humanitarian to a theologian to a scientist... and who knows what else in the future. The combination of human mind and knowledge is the most powerful human force, which leads transformation of a person into OBL or Bush, and from time immortal - Krishna, Budha, Moses, Christ, Mohammad, and on and on... and this will not stop as long as there is human life.

Re: # 307

Hamidm Sahib:

``krishna mian...``

Bahut khoob, aap ne Krishna ko bhi mian bana diya.

#308 by hamidm2

[krishna,

........ i am getting slow - must be the gin ......

you said, ``Hindu craftsmen, particularly sculptors and stonecutters, plied their trade throughout Asia during this period, and their skills were particularly sought after by tomb builders. ``

and i should have said, ``once a coolie, always a coolie .... stone cutting yesterday, j2ee coding today``

.......... ah well, better late than never ]


Hamidm,

I think you should wake up and smell the coffee. Before you know it, you might be working for Mittal (like many white Americans and Europeans), or Tata, or a subsidiary of Reliance industries, or Infosys, or one of the many Indian companies that are gobbling up American and European companies. Your white masters might be working under one of us brown-skinned Indians - then where is your self-respect going to be?

:)

#286 by sanatani

What of those HIndu families whose women folk are abducted by Muslims (mind you friends of the family) and married of at age 13 in Pakistan?

Yaar sanatani .. itney garam kyoon hotey ho? These forced marriages are a cultural phenomenon in deep interior Sindh and nothing to do with hindu or not. Google what happened to a Muslim girl named Kainat Soomro just last week. 2.5 million sindhi hindus live in interior Sindh and are neither discriminated against nor culturally any different from Muslim sindhis.

We`re against Hinuds ... not Hindus. See?

#303 tahmed32

Sir, I confess I am not very regular at Chowk. May be it is a coincidence that each time I surf through I seem to find a message from you wholeheartedly cursing someone or the other. Hence the impression. I am extremely sorry if that captured the exception and not the general rule about you. In any case, thank you for the kind words.

krishna,

........ i am getting slow - must be the gin ......

you said, ``Hindu craftsmen, particularly sculptors and stonecutters, plied their trade throughout Asia during this period, and their skills were particularly sought after by tomb builders. ``

and i should have said, ``once a coolie, always a coolie .... stone cutting yesterday, j2ee coding today``

.......... ah well, better late than never

Re: # 306

krishna mian,

.......... like the jihadis, you are so predictable !

#304 by hamidm2


[krishna mian,

..... are you calling brother chauhan an apologist for a bedouin prophet ? ........ you almost had your first revert back to hindooism and you blew it ! ]

You are thinking from the vantage point of your Semitic upbringing. I do not give a damn about bringing anyone ``back to the fold``. Who cares. We are born alone and we die alone. All I care is for Muslims to transform into something more benign - Shintoism, Taoism - anything.


[........... and i was almost ready to give you guys jammu and ladakh as long as you give me the valley, but now i too am having second thoughts ............]

You cannot trade with what you do not have. Get rid of your Paki delusions.



[keep this up and i will be clamoring for the taj mahal - after all we built it ]


The Taj Mahal was built by Hindu craftsmen on Hindu soil using materials from Hindu soil. However, you are free to take it away, stone by stone as long as you take ALL your Muslim brethren with you.

Here`s a wikipedia link for this:

``The Taj Mahal incorporates and expands on many design traditions, particularly Hindu, Persian and earlier Mughal architecture. Specific inspiration came from a number of successful Timurid and Mughal buildings. These include the Gur-e Amir (the tomb of Timur, progenitor of the Mughal dynasty, in Samarkand),[5] Humayun`s Tomb, Itmad-Ud-Daulah`s Tomb (sometimes called the Baby Taj), and Shah Jahan`s own Jama Masjid in Delhi. Under his patronage, Mughal building reached new levels of refinement.[6] Whilst previous Mughal building had primarily been constructed of red sandstone, Shah Jahan promoted the use of white marble inlaid with semi-precious stones.

Hindu craftsmen, particularly sculptors and stonecutters, plied their trade throughout Asia during this period, and their skills were particularly sought after by tomb builders. Whilst the rock-cut architecture which characterises much of the construction of this period had little influence on the Taj Mahal (carvings are only one form of the decorative element), other Indian buildings such as the Man Singh palace in Gwalior were an inspiration for much Mughal palace architecture and the source for the chhatris which can be seen on the Taj Mahal.``

#302 by tolkinin

[Either you have changed your nick fronm Sanatiantini or no different in your blind fanatic outlook and consumed by hatred ]


This is the standard response from fanatical haters like yourself.

Instead of arguing on facts, you start calling names.

Before calling me names, first tell me what it is I wrote that is not factual.

Get rid of your fanatical hatred, and start dealing in facts.

The truth will set you free.

Re: # 300

krishna mian,

..... are you calling brother chauhan an apologist for a bedouin prophet ? ........ you almost had your first revert back to hindooism and you blew it ! ........... and i was almost ready to give you guys jammu and ladakh as long as you give me the valley, but now i too am having second thoughts ............ keep this up and i will be clamoring for the taj mahal - after all we built it

Muhiyal #282 I read your two posts where you assured people that most Pakistanis are not the ``urstruly and tahmed types``. While I dont care some individual whose hatreds and stupidity are obvious from his post (as in #300), after reading your posts I can see that you are an intelligent and well-meaning individual who sees people as people, not as ``hindu``, ``muslim`` or any such caricature.

Therefore, I am concerned what I have written that you find offensive (which is what you wrote seems to imply). I would very much appreciate your doing so, and I wish you all the best in any case.

#299 #200 Krishna

Either you have changed your nick fronm Sanatiantini or no different in your blind fanatic outlook and consumed by hatred

#298 Mr.Einstein are you r so nive to think that iNdia can implement computerised tracking of passengers adresses etc...In a country where 1/3 of passengers travel without any ticket including even platform ticket.....there is not will or intention of impementing any rule except when the enforcer has interst of lining his poc ket for which this rule would be god send......

#294 by Salim_Chauhan

[In my opinion this image is largely the result of those who formed the Islamic state in Median after the departure of the Holy Prophet (PBUH).]


This is the biggest lie perpetrated by the Islamic apologists.

The unholy prophet`s life was one unending saga of gory bloodletting, brutality, murder, mayhem, looting and rape. His followers and those who came later were only emulating him in this accursed cult of personality.

There are a million and one solid historical references for this that are agreed upon by ALL sources.

But without lying, the faithful cannot survive. So they keep lying.

#282 by Muhiyal

[I grew up as a Hindu in Pakistan and can assure you that most Pakistanis are nowhere close to the urstruly or tahmed types.]

Neither were the Germans in Nazi Germany. Most of them were decent people too, BUT members of the Nazi party. And therein lies the problem. As long as the Mein Kampf exists, and there is the personal example of Hitler, there will be skinheads all over the world. It took the very destructive 2nd World war to get rid of an ideology like Naziism. It will take something akin to that to rid the world of the evil that is Islam. As long as there is the Koran, and the personal example of Muhammad, this insidous cult will continue to exist.

I have met many decent Muslim Pakistanis. But I am yet to meet anyone who has never donated money in the Jehad boxes, or who does not support the Islamic ideology of a ``free`` Kashmir. Somehow EVERY Pakistani I have met insists that BECAUSE Kashmiri Muslims are in the majority, they can steamroll over the Hindu Kashmiris` wishes, and have their own Islamic state. ANY country with an area of Muslim majority ALWAYS has the same problem - that area wants to secede and create a separate Islamic majority state. Look at Thailand. Look at Burma(Myanmar). Look at China. Look at Russia. Keep watching Lebanon. In West Bengal, which because of vote-bank politics let in illegal Bangladeshis by the millions, the Muslims are already flexing their electoral muscle. Buddhadeb Bhattacharya has just bowed in to their demands of recognizing Urdu as the second most important language of the state. It`s all downhill from here - keep watching.

I know some Hindus from Pakistan. They have to be careful, depending where in Pakistan they are. They dare not flaunt their Hindu identity too much in many areas of the country, and in many parts of the cities.


[It may not make any difference to you though. The other sort, including I am sure whose deaths you are gloating over, would usually say only positive things about their stay in India upon their return.]

Yes, but they would also put their rupees in the Jehad boxes, wouldn`t they?

May be somebody will start a petition to the Mahaan Railway Minister Lallu Yadav of our Mahaan Bhaarat along following lines:

Most progressive nations of world have a means of identifying their citizens and visitors and provide a means for recording the address of their place of residence. This usually is a driver`s license, which grants a privilege to drive a motor vehicle on public roads. This is a privilege but not a right. Any time this privilege can be withdrawn. Most progressive countries have means to record violations of rules of driving motor vehicles and identifying persons and verifying their addresses. Since India does not have universal means of identifying and verifying addresses an introduction of such a system might face wide resistance. But the privilege of using public transport system operated by Central and State Governments for inter-state travel is not a right guaranteed by Constitution of India. Therefore, there is justification in regulating the travel by citizens who want to use State Owned inter-state transport services. One such restriction could be carrying a tamper-proof ``Proof of Identity`` such as a Photo-ID, which also provides current address. Such ``Proof of Identity`` could be a plastic card similar to a credit card which has on it secret markers to thwart its tampering. Some countries have developed technologies for producing such tamper-proof cards.

With this feedback I am requesting for consideration of a future law making it mandatory for anyone who wishes to travel by Indian Railways trains to carry such a ``Proof of Identity``. Initially this may be introduced for journeys to selected destinations only.

Subsequently this may be introduced for all the State Owned public transport enterprises for users of all inter-state travels. Right to travel remains intact because individuals would be entitled to travel by private transport services. But the privilege to use State Owned inter-state transport services will be regulated with rules, which would include carrying a ``Proof of Identity``. In my opinion such a limit on right to travel will not be found unconstitutional by courts.

Sanatani,

I have a special request that I hope you will honor. Please don`t provide ammunition and pretexts to our own hate-mongers, bigots, and racists like Tahmed32 and Urstruly. While you are definitely entitled to your extreme viewpoints, what you don`t realize is that these charlatans use your rhetoric to justify their own agenda. Thanks.

#295 Chacha Buttees,
Please refrain from personal attacks and using other people`s names to do your own dirty work. My charge of bigotry against you is based on facts - your persistent and numerous posts arguing for not allowing the repatriation of Muslim Pakistanis stranded in Bangladesh since 1971. You conveniently lump all of these poor people as ``Biharis,`` as if that piece of bigotry will mask your Paki Punju Paindoo hypocrisy. The only filth around here is your hypocrisy in lamenting, with crocodile tears, the loss of Urdu-speakers in the Samjhota Express terrorist attack. While you ``grieve`` for these Urdu-speakers you deny the basic human right of repatriation to hundreds of thousands of Urdu-speaking Pakistanis in BD. Shame on you and your kind.

#293 for a lowlife who has been routinely banned on chowk for harassing women with your filth (let alone given the ``chhitar parade`` by Stuka recently when he decided to waste some time with you), it is quite consistent for you to be a liar as well when you refer to others as ``bigots``.

#281 anil {``Don`t you think Islam will loose its identity, and would be no different than say Buddhism?
Also, who can lead the charge for such changes in Islam?``}

Anil Bhai,
Yes, Islam will lose its identity as a monolithic, violent, power-hungry, and oppressive force. In my opinion this image is largely the result of those who formed the Islamic state in Median after the departure of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Much of the literature and holy books were designed to serve the power interests of the ruling Omayyads and Abbasids. To me the most attractive aspect of Islam is the direct relationship between each human being and the Creator - there are no priesthood, no religious hierarchy, and no intermediaries. Can Islam shed the Mullah without losing its identity? Absolutely - the Mullah is a self-styled usurper of perceived knowledge and dubious piety.

Who will lead the charge for such changes? Hopefully, the new converts in the West and elsewhere, who ``discover`` Islam on their own and have a more empirical understanding of the philosophy. Also, I hold out hope for the inspired native Muslims, who can see through the political ambitions and rhetoric of the extremist leaders. To be honest, we don`t even need mosques to be Muslims - and if we can do away with beautiful mosques, we certainly don`t need the hideous Mullahs.

#282 Muhiyal {``I grew up as a Hindu in Pakistan and can assure you that most Pakistanis are nowhere close to the urstruly or tahmed types. ``}

Muhiyal, my friend,
Thank you for posting that reassuring message about the sentiments of most Pakistanis. In the defense of bigots like Urstruly and Tahmed, let me just say that their prejudice is also extended to Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakistanis. They are simply Pakistani Punjabi racists who try to mask their bigotry under the guise of nationalism or religious extremism. Urstruly dilutes his racist supremacy with extreme Sunni Wahabbi rhetoric. Tahmed is a bit more hypocritical and uses a blend of interfaith jargon, crocodile tears, and human rights lip service - all the while insisting that poor stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh cannot be repatriated to Pakistan. He uses the keyword ``Bihari`` to lump all Urdu-speakers as the objects of his prejudice.

While I can`t speak for the rest of Pakistan, having grown up in Karachi, I can attest to the fact that the Pakistanis in that city have a much more tolerant and cordial perspective toward people of other faiths. I don`t recall any incidents of bigotry against the numerous Christians in Karachi or the few, but not enough, Hindus and Parsis living there. Yes, there is some hatred for Pakistani Punjabis, but even that is limited to the Paindoo Rangers, who behaved very badly during their occupation of that city. People in Karachi do not extend that hatred to the Punjabis who live in Karachi and who, for the most part, speak Urdu and get along very well with others. The violence related to MQM vs JI or the repeated attempts to stir up Shia/Sunni sectarian strife are largely the work of government-inspired divide and rule machinations.

Re: 286 Sanatani

No Sir, I am all for punishing zealots in the same cruel ways they do on innocent victims. During our Pakistan days I have myself lost an uncle to the sort. With the same irony as your gloating over the train victims, he was the one in the family most emphasizing the virtues of not running down anyone else’s faith. So please don’t tell me anything about lack of sympathy or the discrimination embedded in Pakistani laws. And no, I am not rooting for the Parthab sort either. Even when living in a sea of islam we were most proud of being Hindus and refused to see ourselves through the filters of some others. The big thing I disagree with you on is how you demarcate the border between “us” and “them”. The right “them” is only religion inspired zealots not every Muslim. I know far too many nice and admirable people who happen to be born into Islam to be able to hate them all.

#287

Good article full of homely truths. The one comment I would make is that the indian goverment has had no problem collaborating with fanatics from any religion. Whether it was Bhidranwale in the 70s or the Shahabuddin in the 80s or the Babri-masjid destroying kar sevaks in the 90s, our goverment has often said one thing in public and another in private. So that also needs to be stated clearly - fanaticism isn`t restricted to muslims and the indian goverment has a history of pandering to all religions (is that a definition of indian secularism:-).

Islamic exceptionalism and self-absorption is definitely a real challenge. The belief that there is ``one god, one people, one book`` is a certain kind of cult-like thinking and is problematic in the modern world. What is really horrific is that this is being supported with billions from Saudi Arabia and there is little protest against it, especially not from religous muslims.

Some of the hindutva stuff has a similar flavor. If you look at the Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal, their beliefs are also fanatical. It doesnt matter that they dont believe in ``one book, one god`` kind of nonsense, their brand of nonsense is also quite dangerous. Some kind of localism or nativism is found throughout the world, but when it crosses limits it becomes true extremism. It is another matter that these groups do not have the 10s of billions of dollars in funding that our Saudi friends have.

#289 above is from cnn-ibn website.

The link is
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/02_2007/samjhautas-unknown-dead-buried-in-haryana-village-34380.html

AN INDIAN FAREWELL: People at the mass burial of blast victims in Meharana.


Meharana, Haryana: Abdul Hamid had no idea for whom he was digging the seven-foot-long grave, but as he took out an unidentified body from the coffin and lay it to rest inside the trench in the local graveyard here, tears rolled down his cheeks. ``We all are his brothers... Allah bless his soul.``

Twenty-three unidentified bodies of the February 18 Samjhauta Express blast victims were buried here amid ``Allah Ho Akbar`` chants. Over 500 people, including Haryana Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda, offered floral tributes to these ``unknown persons`` here on Saturday, six days after they were killed abroad the Delhi-Attari express near Panipat.

``We are born from earth and finally rest there only. They may be Pakistanis or Indians but what is shocking is they were killed for no reason,`` said Maulana Asghar Qasmi, while pouring soil on one of the graves.

``Since they (victims) don`t have any relatives, we are all doing this as brothers. They were charred so badly that no one can recognise them, but Allah will do justice,`` said Qasmi.

Like Qasmi, there were hundreds of others who were not related to the victims or their families but were present at the graveyard to express their grief and as fellow humans. Asha Sharma, who was there too, was in tears. ``Why do they kill innocent people? Don`t they have any respect for life,`` she asked.

Covered in white shrouds, the bodies were brought in wooden coffins. Before the bodies were taken out of the coffins, Hooda and officials from the Pakistan High Commission laid wreaths on the wooden boxes, showered rose petals and stood in silence for a few minutes as Muslim clerics offered namaz. ``We pray for every single victim and feel extremely sad for their family members,`` the chief minister said.

``Hindu, Musalman, Sikh, Isai, hum sab hain bhai, bhai (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, we are all brothers),`` said an emotional Mohammad Unus.

Unus and 70 other people were busy digging the graves since early Saturday. ``All of us were crying since morning. I have never seen so many people buried at one place at one time. It`s pure destiny and may Allah bless all,`` he said, pouring the earth over grave No. 2.

Abidi Arif Nomani, a Pakistani national, was in tears too. ``People from both countries are with them (victims) and Allah will give justice to these innocent souls.``

Nomani was in India for business purposes and reached the burial ground to express grief over the tragedy.

On Februar 18, two coaches of the 4001 Delhi-Attari Express were detonated minutes before midnight by terrorists, killing 68 people and injuring 50.

#287 macaca sanatani: you started with gloating over the deaths of those train passengers. now i see you whining about fanatics. This is what happens when you overdose on your pills.

Re: # 281

Anil when you are starring in Salim Javed`s Dhimmi No.1. Meanwhile food for thought:

Fanatics demand, we concede

Kanchan Gupta

Flipping through a recent issue of Time, I came across an interview with Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Imre Kertesz, better known for his novels Fatelessness, Kaddish for a Child Not Born and Liquidation. During the course of the interview, Kertesz, with touching humility, makes two interesting points which are, in many ways, inter-linked. In response to a question, he says, ``It is not always worthwhile to compromise.``

Later, answering another question, he is more lucid: ``There has been a struggle between the negative and the positive, and we are deep in this fight at the moment. The real fight will not be between nations, but a struggle between fanaticism and democracy. Terrorists do not have a common list of demands on which to base negotiations. Fanatical hatred has taken over the world and this phenomenon conflicts with rational politics that is accustomed to negotiation and compromise.``

My immediate reaction to such profound observation was to try and figure out how to reconcile the two points - if it is ``not always worthwhile to compromise``, then why should we be besotted with ``rational politics that is accustomed to negotiation and compromise``? That apart, it`s difficult to quibble over his comment that ``fanatical hatred has taken over the world``. Kertesz carefully avoids attaching any label to this fanaticism, but since I am not known for being politically correct, I have no hesitation in elaborating on this point. Much of the fanaticism that we witness today originates from a fundamentalist reading and practice of Islam that makes individuals intolerant and repudiate democracy and secularism.

Strangely, while the practitioners of Islamic fundamentalism insist it is their right to be fanatical about their faith, they are unwilling to allow those who subscribe to other faiths similar fanaticism. I recall getting into an argument with the venerable editor of an Arabic magazine, published from Cairo, over lunch at India House while the Ambassador looked increasingly alarmed. The editor, an accomplished man who had spent the better part of his life in Paris and was no fire-breathing Islamist zealot, was remarkably passionate in his defence of Islamic fundamentalism and fundamentalists. ``We don`t just believe in Islam, we practice it. And only when we practice the fundamentals of Islam can we claim to be good Muslims. If those fundamentals make us fundamentalists, so be it. And if those fundamentals militate against what others believe in, it is the others who must compromise on their beliefs and accommodate our fundamentalism,`` he said, his voice, stridently shrill, rising with each sentence. My post-lunch notes also refer to some other points made by him, but they are not really germane to the issue.

If Islamic fundamentalism is justified, then so is Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism and Hindu fundamentalism, I suggested to him, half in jest, mindful that it was an official lunch. ``No. No other religion demands of its followers to be fundamentalists. They can`t just decide to be fanatical about their faith. Fundamentalism of any other variety is wrong and unacceptable,`` he asserted. In brief, in the cloistered world of fundamentalist Islam, everything else is wrong, including legitimate criticism of Islamic fanaticism that rejects rational, secular politics but expects accommodation and compromise, both on its terms.

Seen from the perspective of those who subscribe to - and defend - fundamentalist Islam and the fanaticism that it breeds, it is perfectly alright to use textbooks in schools that denigrate other faiths. Hence, King Fahad Academy in London uses books that teach Muslim children Jews are ``repugnant`` and Christians are ``pigs``. Hindus, being `pagans`, do not merit mention in such texts, thank god for small mercies. Hence also the demand that hate speech laws should not apply to Muslims because it is their religious duty to denigrate others, but others do not have the right to either protest against such denigration or question the basis of this presumed right of the fanatics.

It is not only liberal democratic Governments in the West who are being alarmingly discomfited by the clamourous assertion of the fanatics` right to be obnoxiously hurtful in thought and deed, but also regimes that rule Arabic and Muslim-majority states which dot the map of Arabia and beyond. King Abdullah would be delighted to see fanatics chased out of Saudi Arabia, if not lined up and beheaded in public squares. President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stepped up his fight against the Muslim Brotherhood, the progenitor of Islamism and Islamic fanaticism. Jordan`s King Abdullah II rules with an iron fist and disallows even a squeak that smells of Islamism. In the Maghreb, rulers refuse to acknowledge the very presence of fanatical Islam. In the lesser states of Arabia, calculated emphasis on generating wealth and using it for development has kept Islamists in check. But in countries like Pakistan, as also African states where Islam is the predominant religion, fanatics need not fear either Government or society. In Iran, fanaticism rules.

President Pervez Musharraf, talking to the BBC, admitted that ``Islamic fanatics have the potential to destroy Pakistan`` and described their rising political strength as a ``nightmare``. What he did not admit, however, was his utter failure to check the growth of Islamism or political Islam which flows from fanaticism. For all his bluff and bluster and his claimed emphasis on ``enlightened moderation``, Gen Musharraf has singularly failed in confronting fanatics. Instead, he has repeatedly sought negotiation and compromise, falling back on what Kertesz describes as ``rational politics`` to deal with irrational demands, often with comical results. The pistol-packing, fatigues-wearing General beat a hasty retreat when confronted with burqa-clad, AK-56-wielding women who ostensibly study theology at Hafsa Madarsa near Islamabad. They stood guard over an illegally constructed `library` which the municipal authorities wanted to demolish. In the end, the authorities had to not only back off, but also promise to rebuild demolished mosques that had been illegally constructed on Government land.

As for our secular democracy, fanatics have always had their way with the Government of the day. Not only has the Government of India repeatedly caved in before fanatics, it has willingly offered to accommodate their absurd and illegitimate demands to buy peace. So we have a situation where Islamic banking is being talked of as a secular necessity and Islamisation of the economy as a precondition for India`s development. Where`s the conflict?

Re: # 282

Muhiyal,

If Islam has to be defeated then it has to be by fighting Islam and then mUslims by thinking like and dealing with them just as they deal with you, no remorse and no pity.

And yes my people have died and they have rejoiced so we must return the favour to them.

How about thinking of the pagans o Sudan or the Hindus and Buddhists of Bangladesh while you wax such noble sentiments. What of those HIndu families whose women folk are abducted by Muslims (mind you friends of the family) and married of at age 13 in Pakistan?

App kiss mitti ke bane hain, who has tears for the opressors misfortune not of the oppressed.

Sanatani

Re: # 275
``Similarly, Islam began under the oppression and persecution of the Meccans and for some reason, never let go of the philosophy long after the subjugation of the Meccans``,

What oppression of the Meccans the peadophile f**kr was abusing their gods and they got angry and they chased him out.

WHyyyyy? did they not utilise Wajib ul Qatl against him the world would have been a better place.

And what was wrong with the Crusades, all of Christian North Africa and Arabia had been put to the sword and either killed converted or expelled or made into Dhimmis and the mozz was threatening to do the same to Europe the crusades indeed prevented the total destruction of freedom and liberty, I look for ward to the day where a new Crusade+ Dharamyudh will be declared against the mozz and only 2 choices be given to them the former 2 (kill or convert) no latter expel or dhimmi.

You do not get the irony of calling a bagh in Karachi Bagh Bin Qasim after the man who imposed Arab imperialism in Sindh after slaughtering 2.5 million natives Sindhis (oh I get it they were Hindus and Qasim was spreading the Deen so what if 2.5 million were killed its all for their own good you know) and the victims of Arab Imperialism are so brainwashed by their masters that they not only genuflect before their oppressors they revile those of their own who were brave enough to resist.

Enuff said you are trying to be a good Shia muslim boss this is an oxy moron you cannot be good and have the m word attached to you. It is like saying I am trying to be a good madarchoood. The concept is the same but diametrically opposite whatever this narcistic murderer taught for the non muslims it is actually applicable to the Muslims because and only because they follow him and that too with their eyes open, but whatever is inconvenient they pretend (like you) to rationalise it or dismiss it by saying it is untrue.

You love your mother. Lot of things in life our destiny. Suppose your mother was a non muslim and now suppose when she married your father she did not choose to embrace this sickening cult. After her death would you be allowed to go and pray on her grave/samadhi?

A simple yes or no would do.

And so let us say the Truth: not ``The religion of peace`` but ``The cult of narcissm that would not allow you the privilege of weeping and crying for the woman whose progeny you are if she is a non Muslim``

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 280

Tolkinin,

I am expecting my Hindu bretheren to read Goel, Elst, Shourie and the others so as to improve their intellect.

Do not know whether you are a Hindu or not, but if you are then read these Mahapurushs` vani and if you cannot refute it (by logic alone not Historical proof) then accept it.

If you are a mozz then do ghar vapsi.

Sanatani

RELIGION IS WRONG
May the truth dawn on us all

#230 Sanatani

Kis mitti ke bane hain aap?? First think of a person very close to you. Then try to think of the gruesome way those passengers died. Maybe that will help you imagine what their surviving relatives would be going through. The complete irony is that the more you try to be an polar opposite of islam-inspired hate mongers who are beyond reason, the more of their replica you become. I grew up as a Hindu in Pakistan and can assure you that most Pakistanis are nowhere close to the urstruly or tahmed types. It may not make any difference to you though. The other sort, including I am sure whose deaths you are gloating over, would usually say only positive things about their stay in India upon their return.

Re: # 278

Salim Sahib:

``...it needs a radically different approach. ... In my opinion, Islam needs to be individualized - no ummah, no caliphate, no books, no hadiths, no moolas, no shaikhs, no hajj...``

Don`t you think Islam will loose its identity, and would be no different than say Buddhism?
Also, who can lead the charge for such changes in Islam?

#272 Sanatini you are expec ting to read such longus cut and paste from the likes of Koenrad Elsted ,Sita Ram Goel...etc etc ....

Re: # 278

salim mian,

...... it is not a simple matter of ``excess baggage accumulated over the last 1400 years ``...... like i tell mrs hamidm i am not going for hajj until the custody of the kaaba is restored to the bani-quraish and the idols are returned to their home ...........

#277, {``Until and unless, Islam can have a revival with it`s teachings of Al-DawWa and Dar-ul-Islam/Hadd; no amount of logic is enough to convince rest of the world. I do have my interfaith channel dialogues where people meet and talk about religous issues and almost everyone seems to think that it is about time Islam had it`s M L King-I and it`s own protestant paradigm. ``}


Dillidost,
The fallacy is that Muslims are trying to emulate the Catholic Reformation of the 16th century. Islam does not need a dogmatic reaffirmation of excess baggage accumulated over the last 1400 years - it needs a radically different approach. The Catholic Church, led by a succession of corrupt Popes, was in survival mode. In my opinion, Islam needs to be individualized - no ummah, no caliphate, no books, no hadiths, no moolas, no shaikhs, no hajj. The concept of Allah, the Holy Prophet (PBUH), individual prayer, individual fasting, love for ALL mankind, and freedom to differ (Lakum dinakum wali adeen) can guide the faithful to fulfill His commands and mankind`s wishes.

Re: # 275
Salimdost,
While I truly respect your thought process and regards to sort-o-secularism but I dont think that you would ever be able to succeed in implementing it.

In other words, Islam as a Religion(Ummah, Shariat) does not make any room for Infidels(there is no disrespect intended here). Until and unless, Islam can have a revival with it`s teachings of Al-DawWa and Dar-ul-Islam/Hadd; no amount of logic is enough to convince rest of the world. I do have my interfaith channel dialogues where people meet and talk about religous issues and almost everyone seems to think that it is about time Islam had it`s M L King-I and it`s own protestant paradigm.

#274, Sanatani {``Chauhan Bhai,
You blooody man you talk like one, behave like one you think like one but are not a Hindu.
What you have described is the actions of a Hindu not a Semite. ``}

Sanatani Bhai,
You want to prescribe labels, I want to eradicate them. If I come across as a Hindu, then may I say that your perception of being a Hindu is very close to my personal ambition of being a good Shia Muslim. I try to practice my religion as taught to me by my wonderful mother. I believe what makes sense to me and I modify what I cannot accept - e.g. I don`t perform maatam, but I do reflect seriously on the courage and sacrifice of Imam Hussain in countering evil, tyranny, and subjugation.

Please don`t try to use mankind`s awful history as a yardstick for measuring piety, sincerity, and faith. Unfortunately the Joshuas, Ghazanvis, Goris, Genghis, Tamerlanes, Pope Urbans, and Conquistadores overshadow the Jesuses, Saladins, Rumis (Sufis), Prithvis, Gandhis, MLKs, and Mother Teresas of history.

#273, Dilldost,
Please don`t misinterpret my comparisons - I meant no disrespect. What I said was that for one reason or another, the concept of ``PURITY`` or Khalsa was infused into Sikh doctrine and even the martial character of Sikhism evolved due to gross injustice and persecution - mostly at the hands of Mughal rulers.

Having said that, it would not make sense for this martial attitude to continue forever. Similarly, Islam began under the oppression and persecution of the Meccans and for some reason, never let go of the philosophy long after the subjugation of the Meccans. As for books, they are written so that people can quote from them to suit themselves and to justify whatever they want to do - even the US Constituion has been put to both good and evil use by opportunists - e.g. ``the right to bear arms,`` and ``First and Fifth Amendments.``

My quotes of ``Deus Vult`` are from Pope Urban II as he lauched the bloody Crusades in 1099. This Crusading spirit continued right through the Age of Exploration in the 16th century, the age of imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries, and was even invoked by Dubya in 2001 when he said ``This is a Crusade.``

So, let`s not kid ourselves about who believes in what. I admire, support, and advocate ``Western`` civilization, but like Gandhiji also say that ``it would be a wonderful idea.`` :)

We all need to evolve to a higher standard of human civilization and I think that the world is getting there - the Muslims are just too far behind the rest of humanity.

Re: # 272

Chauhan Bhai,

You blooody man you talk like one, behave like one you think like one but are not a Hindu.
What you have described is the actions of a Hindu not a Semite.

I`ll illustrate a difference in 1947 in the Punjab the Hindus and Sikhs wrecked vengeance on the Muslims of the East Punjab in retaliation for the excesses comitted against their bretheren in the West Panjab however there was one difference.

In no Hindu Mandir or Sikh Gurdwara was it said that the killing of the Moss is an act of god and would entail Swarglok for the people who did it. They were exhorted to avange their bretheren in the West. In every single mosque were the Muslims exhorted to do Jiahd for the Din and Rasul and the promise of Jannat and Houris in case they died and deification as Ghazi, Junaid, Mujahid etc. They were exhorted to loot, carry away women etc all in the time honoured tradition of Ghanimeyah or Plunder. The mullahs got the same share as the peadophile rapist murderer got against the pagans, jews, Xtians and fire worshippers. The mullahs or the common moss never thought it wrong for he was faithfully copying the man.

Your saying ``are all part of the excess baggage accumulated over the years by the various power-hungry demagogues in ``Islamic`` history. These concepts are not all that different from ``Deus Vult, Crusades, for God, King, and Country, Promised Land, Chosen People, Caste Totem Pole, Khalsa, etc`` is lies and pure unadulterated rubbish. The Guru forbade his followers to rape Muslim women the mark of a true man of god the excess baggage is of Islam and Islam`s alone.

You see the truth but then you do not, mores the pity.

Chalo your choice stay Salim katua. What a loss.

Let us see what you have to see on this:

FP: Bill Warner, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

Warner: Thank you Jamie for this opportunity.

FP: Tell us a bit about the Center for the Study of Political Islam.

Warner: The Center for the Study of Political Islam is a group of scholars who are devoted to the scientific study of the foundational texts of Islam—Koran, Sira (life of Mohammed) and Hadith (traditions
of Mohammed). There are two areas to study in Islam, its doctrine and history, or as CSPI sees it—the theory and its results. We study the history to see the practical or experimental results of the doctrine.

CSPI seems to be the first group to use statistics to study the doctrine. Previous scientific studies of the Koran are primarily devoted to Arabic language studies.

Our first principle is that Koran, Sira and Hadith must be taken as a whole. We call them the Islamic Trilogy to emphasize the unity of the texts.

Our major intellectual breakthrough is to see that dualism is the foundation and key to understanding Islam. Everything about Islam comes in twos starting with its foundational declaration: (1) there
is no god but Allah and (2) Mohammed is His prophet. Therefore, Islam is Allah (Koran) and the Sunna (words and deeds of Mohammed found in the Sira and Hadith).

Endless ink has been wasted on trying to answer the question of what is Islam? Is Islam the religion of peace? Or is the true Islam a radical ideology? Is a moderate Muslim the real Muslim?

This reminds a scientist of the old arguments about light. Is light a particle or is light a wave? The arguments went back and forth. Quantum mechanics gave us the answer. Light is dualistic; it is both
a particle and a wave. It depends upon the circumstances as to which quality manifests. Islam functions in the same manner.

Our first clue about the dualism is in the Koran, which is actually two books, the Koran of Mecca (early) and the Koran of Medina (later). The insight into the logic of the Koran comes from the large numbers of contradictions in it. On the surface, Islam resolves these contradictions by resorting to ``abrogation`` . This means that the verse written later supersedes the earlier verse. But in fact, since the Koran is considered by Muslims to be the perfect word of Allah, both verses are sacred and true. The later verse is ``better,`` but the earlier verse cannot be wrong since Allah is perfect. This is the foundation of dualism. Both verses are ``right.`` Both sides of the contradiction are true in dualistic logic. The circumstances govern which verse is used.

For example:
(Koran of Mecca) 73:10: Listen to what they [unbelievers] say with patience, and leave them with dignity .

From tolerance we move to the ultimate intolerance, not even the Lord of the Universe can stand the unbelievers:

(Koran of Medina) 8:12: Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, ``I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the unbelievers` hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers!``

All of Western logic is based upon the law of contradiction— if two things contradict, then at least one of them is false. But Islamic logic is dualistic; two things can contradict each other and both are true.

No dualistic system may be measured by one answer. This is the reason that the arguments about what constitutes the ``real`` Islam go on and on and are never resolved. A single right answer does not exist.

Dualistic systems can only be measured by statistics. It is futile to argue one side of the dualism is true. As an analogy, quantum mechanics always gives a statistical answer to all questions.

For an example of using statistics, look at the question: what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let`s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the jihad references are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle. Is jihad war? Yes—97%. Is jihad inner struggle? Yes—3%. So if you are writing an article, you can make a case for either. But in truth, almost every argument about Islam can be answered by: all of the above. Both sides of the duality are right.

FP: Why, in your view, is there so much ignorance about the history
and doctrine of political Islam in the West?

Warner: First, let`s see how ignorant we are about the history of political Islam. How many Christians can tell you how Turkey or Egypt became Islamic? What happened to the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned
in Paul`s letters? Find a Jew who can tell you the Jewish history of dhimmitude (second class citizens who serve Islam). What European knows that white women were the highest priced slaves in Mecca? Everyone knows how many Jews Hitler killed, but find an unbeliever who can tell you how many died in jihad over the last 1400 years.

We are just as ignorant about the doctrine of Islam. An FBI agent gets two hours of training on Islam and most of that is how not to offend the imam. We are fighting in Iraq. Who utilizes the political, military doctrine of Islam to plan strategy? Who can find a single rabbi or minister who has read the Koran, Sira and Hadith? What governor, senator, congressmen or military leader displays a knowledge of the political doctrine of Islam? Try to find a course available in a college about Islamic political doctrine and ethics.
Graduates are schooled in Islamic art, architecture, poetry, Sufism, and a glorious history that ignores the suffering of the innocent unbelievers. Graduates read comments about the Koran and Hadith, but do not read the actual doctrine.

FP: So why this ignorance?
Warner: Let`s start at the beginning. When Islam burst out of Arabia into a decaying Byzantine world, the unbelievers recorded it as an Arabic invasion. Similarly, the invasion of Eastern Europe was by Turks; the invasion of Spain was by Moors. Our scholars were incapable of even naming the invaders.

Mohammed killed every single intellectual or artist who opposed him. It was fear that drove the vast majority of the media not to reprint the Mohammed cartoons, not some imagined sensitivity. Fear is a
fabulous basis for ignorance, but that is not enough to explain it all. What accounts for the almost psychotic aversion to knowledge about Islam? Beyond fear is the realization that political Islam is
profoundly foreign to us.

Let`s examine the ethical basis of our civilization. All of our politics and ethics are based upon a unitary ethic that is best formulated in the Golden Rule:
Treat others as you would be treated.

The basis of this rule is the recognition that at one level, we are all the same. We are not all equal. Any game of sports will show that we do not have equal abilities. But everyone wants to be treated as a
human being. In particular, we all want to be equal under the law and be treated as social equals. On the basis of the Golden Rule—the equality of human beings—we have created democracy, ended slavery and treat women and men as political equals. So the Golden Rule is a unitary ethic. All people are to be treated the same. All religions have some version of the Golden Rule except Islam.

FP: So how is Islam different in this context?

Warner: The term ``human being`` has no meaning inside of Islam. There is no such thing as humanity, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever. Look at the ethical statements found in the Hadith. A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill or steal from other Muslims. But a Muslim may lie, deceive or kill an unbeliever if it advances Islam.

There is no such thing as a universal statement of ethics in Islam. Muslims are to be treated one way and unbelievers another way. The closest Islam comes to a universal statement of ethics is that the entire world must submit to Islam. After Mohammed became a prophet, he never treated an unbeliever the same as a Muslim. Islam denies the truth of the Golden Rule.

By the way, this dualistic ethic is the basis for jihad. The ethical system sets up the unbeliever as less than human and therefore, it is easy to kill, harm or deceive the unbeliever.

Now mind you, unbelievers have frequently failed at applying the Golden Rule, but we can be judged and condemned on its basis. We do fall short, but it is our ideal.

There have been other dualistic cultures. The KKK comes to mind. But the KKK is a simplistic dualism. The KKK member hates all black people at all times; there is only one choice. This is very straightforward and easy to see. The dualism of Islam is more deceitful and offers two choices on how to treat the unbeliever. The unbeliever can be treated nicely, in the same way a farmer treats his cattle well. So Islam can be ``nice``, but in no case is the unbeliever a ``brother`` or a friend. In fact, there are some 14 verses of the Koran that are emphatic—a Muslim is never a friend to the unbeliever. A Muslim may be ``friendly,`` but he is never an actual friend. And the degree to which a Muslim is actually a true friend is the degree to which he is not a Muslim, but a hypocrite.

FP: You mentioned earlier how logic is another point of profound difference. Can you touch on that?

Warner: To reiterate, all of science is based upon the law of contradiction. If two things contradict each other, then at least one of them has to be false. But inside of Islamic logic, two contradictory statements can both be true. Islam uses dualistic logic and we use unitary scientific logic.

Since Islam has a dualistic logic and dualistic ethics, it is completely foreign to us. Muslims think differently from us and feel differently from us. So our aversion is based upon fear and a rejection of Islamic ethics and logic. This aversion causes us to avoid learning about Islam so we are ignorant and stay ignorant. Another part of the aversion is the realization that there is no compromise with dualistic ethics. There is no halfway place between unitary ethics and dualistic ethics. If you are in a business deal
with someone who is a liar and a cheat, there is no way to avoid getting cheated. No matter how nice you are to a con man, he will take advantage of you. There is no compromise with dualistic ethics. In short, Islamic politics, ethics and logic cannot be part of our civilization. Islam does not assimilate, it dominates. There is never any ``getting along`` with Islam. Its demands never cease and the demands must be met on Islam`s terms: submission.

The last reason for our aversion to the history of political Islam is our shame. Islam put over a million Europeans into slavery. Since Muslims can`t be enslaved, it was a white Christian who was the Turkish sultan`s sex slave. These are things that we do not want to face.

Jews don`t want to acknowledge the history of political Islam, because they were dhimmis, second class citizens or semi-slaves, just like the Christians. Jews like to recall how they were advisors and physicians to powerful Muslims, but no matter what the Jew did or what position he held, he was still a dhimmi. There is no compromise between being equal and being a dhimmi. Why should a Hindu want to recall the shame of slavery and the destruction of their temples and cities? After Hindu craftsmen built the Taj Mahal, the Muslim ruler had their right hands cut off so that they could not build anything as beautiful for anyone else. The practice of suttee, the widow throwing herself on the husband`s funeral pyre, came about as a response to the rape and brutality of the Islamic jihad as it sweep over ancient Hindustan.

Blacks don`t want to face the fact that it was a Muslim who rounded up their ancestors in Africa to wholesale to the white slave trader. The Arab is the true master of the African. Blacks can`t accept the
common bond they share with whites: that both Europeans and Africans were slaves under Islam. Blacks like to imagine Islam is their counterweight to white power, not that Islam has ruled them for 1400 years.

Dualistic logic. Dualistic ethics. Fear. Shame. There is no compromise. These are the reasons we don`t want to know about Islam`s political history, doctrine or ethics.

FP So is there such a thing as non-political Islam?

Warner: Non-political Islam is religious Islam. Religious Islam is what a Muslim does to avoid Hell and go to Paradise. These are the Five Pillars—prayer, charity to Muslims, pilgrimage to Mecca, fasting and declaring Mohammed to be the final prophet.

But the Trilogy is clear about the doctrine. At least 75% of the Sira (life of Mohammed) is about jihad. About 67% of the Koran written in Mecca is about the unbelievers, or politics. Of the Koran of Medina,
51% is devoted to the unbelievers. About 20% of Bukhari`s Hadith is about jihad and politics. Religion is the smallest part of Islamic foundational texts.

Political Islam`s most famous duality is the division of the world into believers, dar al Islam, and unbelievers, dar al harb. The largest part of the Trilogy relates to treatment of the unbelievers, kafirs. Even Hell is political. There are 146 references to Hell in the Koran. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings—murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime. Hence, Islamic Hell is a political prison for those
who speak against Islam.

Mohammed preached his religion for 13 years and garnered only 150 followers. But when he turned to politics and war, in 10 years time he became the first ruler of Arabia by averaging an event of violence
every 7 weeks for 9 years. His success did not come as a religious leader, but as a political leader.

In short, political Islam defines how the unbelievers are to be dealt with and treated.

FP: Can you touch briefly on the history of political Islam?

Warner: The history of political Islam starts with Mohammed`s immigration to Medina. From that point on, Islam`s appeal to the world has always had the dualistic option of joining a glorious religion or being the subject of political pressure and violence. After the immigration to Medina, Islam became violent when persuasion failed. Jihad entered the world.

After Mohammed`s death, Abu Bakr, the second caliph, settled the theological arguments of those who wished to leave Islam with the political action of death by the sword. The jihad of Umar (the second
caliph, a pope-king) exploded into the world of the unbelievers. Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be
the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest.

Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed.

The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great`s army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The
conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism.

Zoarasterianism was eliminated from Persia.The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam.

In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad.

Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.

FP: How have our intellectuals responded to Islam?

Warner: The basis of all the unbeliever`s thought has collapsed in the face of Islamic political thought, ethics and logic. We have already mentioned how our first intellectuals could not even name the
invaders as Muslims. We have no method of analysis of Islam. We can`t agree on what Islam is and have no knowledge about our suffering as the victims of a 1400-year jihad.

Look at how Christians, Jews, blacks, intellectuals and artists have dealt with Islamic doctrine and history. In every case their primary ideas fail.

Christians believe that ``love conquers all.`` Well, love does not conquer Islam. Christians have a difficult time seeing Islam as a political doctrine, not a religion. The sectarian nature of Christian thought means that the average non-Orthodox Christian has no knowledge or sympathy about the Orthodox Christian`s suffering.

Jews have a theology that posits a unique relationship between Jews and the creator-god of the universe. But Islam sees the Jews as apes who corrupted the Old Testament. Jews see no connection between
Islam`s political doctrine and Israel.

Black intellectuals have based their ideas on the slave/victim status and how wrong it was for white Christians to make them slaves. Islam has never acknowledged any of the pain and suffering it has caused in Africa with its 1400-year-old slave trade. But blacks make no attempt to get an apology from Muslims and are silent in the presence of Islam. Why? Is it because Arabs are their masters?

Multiculturalism is bankrupt against Islam`s demand for every civilization to submit. The culture of tolerance collapses in the face of the sacred intolerance of dualistic ethics. Intellectuals respond by ignoring the failure. Our intellectuals and artists have been abused for 1400 years. Indeed, the psychology of our intellectuals is exactly like the psychology of the abused wife, the sexually abused child or rape victim. Look at the parallels between the response of abuse victims and our intellectuals. See how violence has caused denial. The victims deny that the abuse took place: Our media never reports
the majority of jihad around the world. Our intellectuals don`t talk about how all of the violence is connected to a political doctrine.

The abuser uses fear to control the victim : What was the reason that newspapers would not publish the Mohammed cartoon? Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence for his novel. What ``cutting edge`` artist
creates any artistic statement about Islam? Fear rules our intellectuals and artists.

The victims find ways to blame themselves: We are to blame for the attacks on September 11, 2001. If we try harder Muslims will act nicer. We have to accommodate their needs.

The victim is humiliated: White people will not talk about how their ancestors were enslaved by Islam. No one wants to claim the victims of jihad. Why won`t we claim the suffering of our ancestors? Why don`t we cry about the loss of cultures and peoples? We are too ashamed to care.

The victim feels helpless: ``What are we going to do?`` ``We can`t kill 1.3 billion people.`` No one has any understanding or optimism. No one has an idea of what to try. The only plan is to ``be nicer.`` The victim turns the anger inward: What is the most divisive issue in today`s politics? Iraq. And what is Iraq really about? Political Islam. The Web has a video about how the CIA and Bush planned and executed September 11. Cultural self-loathing is the watchword of our intellectuals and artists.

We hate ourselves because we are mentally molested and abused. Our intellectuals and artists have responded to the abuse of jihad just as a sexually abused child or a rape victim would respond. We are
quite intellectually ill and are failing at our job of clear thinking. We can`t look at our denial.

FP: So summarize for us why it is so crucial for us to learn the doctrine of political Islam.

Warner: Political Islam has annihilated every culture it has invaded or immigrated to. The total time for annihilation takes centuries, but once Islam is ascendant it never fails. The host culture disappears and becomes extinct.

We must learn the doctrine of political Islam to survive. The doctrine is very clear that all forms of force and persuasion may and must be used to conquer us. Islam is a self-declared enemy of all
unbelievers. The brilliant Chinese philosopher of war, Sun Tsu, had the dictum—know the enemy. We must know the doctrine of our enemy or be annihilated.

Or put another way: if we do not learn the doctrine of political Islam, our civilization will be annihilated just as Egypt`s Coptic civilization was annihilated.

Since unbelievers must know the doctrine of political Islam to survive, CSPI has written all of its books in simple English. Our books are scholarly, but easy to read. As an example, anyone who can read a newspaper can pick up A Simple Koran and read and understand it. It is not ``dumbed down`` and contains every single word of the original.

Not only is the language simple, but logic has been used to sort and categorize. Context and chronology have been restored. The result is a Koran that is an epic story ending in triumph over all enemies of Allah. All of our books and philosophy may be found at our center`s website.

Islam declares that we are the enemies of Allah. If we do not learn the political doctrine of Islam we will end up just like the first
victims of Islam—the tolerant, polytheist Arabs of Saudi Arabia who
became the Wahabbis (a very strict branch of Islam) of today, the
most intolerant culture on the face of the earth.

FP: Bill Warner, thank you for joining us today.

Warner: Jamie, thank you for your kindness and efforts

Re: # 271
You are out place in your assessment Mr Salim Chauhan.
You cannot bracket Islam/Shariat/Hadiths with rest of the examples.

Islam only has one version of Shariat/Hadiths which is exclusively talking about Islam and only Islam and denigerates rest of the faiths.

Khalsa as an example was wrong choice and as was other examples from old testament.

You know it and I know what Snatani is talking about. Christians are not bigots otherwise you would`nt be sitting on Internet speaking their language and still be practicing Islam.

In the Christian world nobody follows Old Testament anymore, Chrisitanity has been revised millions of times during laat 500 yrs. Islam has never been revised and it still has it`s original work that is clearly out of context in this plural world leading towards conflicts and wars.

Muslims are not bad people, they are simply following what is given in their books, as far as exclusivity is concerned and this would always be the cause of wars.

Pakistan`s largest park - Bagh Ibn-e-Qasim with renovated Hindu temple

Advani destroyed Babri Masjid so Karachi gets sweet revenge.




KARACHI: Love’s labour — Bagh Ibn-e-Qasim

By Hasan Mansoor

KARACHI, Jan 23: Bagh Ibn-e- Qasim, the country’s largest park spread over 130 acres, is to be inaugurated by President Pervez Musharraf on February 27. The park at present is closed for the public and receiving finishing touches. This scribe observed many unique features when he visited the site.

The park is so enormous it can accommodate at least 300,000 people at a time and will be open day and night.

A portion of the enormous garden offers more than 100 animals in action but they can not move as they are the genus of flowering plants like lajastonia and bougainvillea, which have been carved in such a way that they resemble different animal species. District Officer of Parks of the CDGK Liaquat Ali Khan believe such a large ‘horticultural zoo’ exists nowhere in South Asia.

“We got these plants from Thailand using official and unofficial resources. Huge sums were not spent on their purchase, it is just a labour of love on our part,” said Mr Khan. According to him, these ‘animals’ get their food not through the mouth but roots deep in the ground. “Look, what a beautiful sight they are, they will bring great joy to children and their elders alike,” he said. He is justified in taking pride in his work and calling it the most beautiful park in the country, as this scribe watched the sun set in the Arabian Sea giving the scene a surreal look. The garden’s exclusivity is that it is along the Arabian Sea, which no other park possesses,” said Mr Khan.

These flowering plants have been carved by Thai artists to resemble giraffes, golden pheasants, rabbits, deer, peacocks, elephants, bears, kangaroos, seals, pelicans etc. This portion is the latest addition and visitors will only be allowed to view from a distance so that the Green Creatures are not destroyed or harmed.

“The Bagh has become a reality due to the President’s and Governor Ishratul Ibad Khan’s personal interest otherwise removing 450 encroachments is an impossible task,” said Mr Khan. The CDGK spent Rs500 million on the 130-acre garden. Before the project was launched, 74 acres was encroached, which was vacated because of the governor’s efforts.

A Hindu temple located in what is now the park’s midst, has been renovated in line with the overall design of the park and worshippers can enter the premises free-of-charge when it opens to the public.

Ten thousand eight hundred trees have been transplanted in the garden. Over 3,000 stone benches and twenty canopies erected. There are 1,500 dustbins to keep the lawns clean. One hopes visitors to the park use them and keep this garden clean.

To keep the premises lively at night, 30 lighting towers — each carrying 24 powerful bulbs — twenty arena vision floodlights and over 1,000 footlights are installed. One hundred twenty acres are used for lawns and paths, walking and other structures have been built on the remaining 10 acres.

The City District Government Karachi, which owns the park, has hired a private security agency for the park. This firm will deploy about 200 security guards besides 50 men mounted on horses will ensure security. Another Rs6.5 million contract for the park’s maintenance for four months has been given to another firm. Ticket collection rights will also be auctioned.

Courtesy, Dawn February 23, 2007 Friday Safar 5, 1428

#250 Sanatani {``Re: # 231 Chauhan Bhai,
Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that says ``wajib ul qatal``.
...Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that says ``jews are pigs``, ``xtians are monkeys`` ``polytheists and fire worshippers even worse``
......Islam is evil period. If we cannot get rid of Islam lets do the next best thing get rid of muslims. .``}

Braadrum Sanatani,
``Wajibul qatal, ummah, 72 virgins, jihad, Caliphate, dar-ul-islam, etc...`` are all part of the excess baggage accumulated over the years by the various power-hungry demagogues in ``Islamic`` history. These concepts are not all that different from ``Deus Vult, Crusades, for God, King, and Country, Promised Land, Chosen People, Caste Totem Pole, Khalsa, etc..`` I try to individualize my faith in God and strive to do good - without associating myself with any group or mentality that further divides mankind. I have to put up with man-made mandatory concepts such as nationality, passports, visas, religious classification, but I don`t have to believe in them.
Every religion, as represented by its most outspoken adherents and power-hungry priests, claims to possess the only truth. It is up to most of us to reject such boasts and claims.
When you say that ``Islam is evil`` and ``If we cannot get rid of Islam lets do the next best thing get rid of muslims,`` you sound just like the so-called ``Muslims`` who shout ``Kill the Jews,`` and ``Slay the monkey-worshippers.``
Let`s concentrate on how best to serve our Creator - by making his creations get along with each other and to live peacefully. Amen.

Ref parthaab #260

[RELIGION IS WRONG]

But Stalin was/is right.

Commie momofuku!

#253 Sanatani {``#253 by sanatani on February 22, 2007 5:16pm PT
Re: # 249
Chauhan Bhai you are sir an eediot, ...``}

Braadrum Sanatani,
You are not the first person to say that. However, others have spelled it differently. :)

Re: # 262 sanatni sahib, you are giving your name a bad name. Insulting your very name. There is nothing ``sanatana`` in your views. You have picked up this word without really knowing its meaning and its significance (that is what I presume from your interacts).

Re: # 256 there is a small disagreement here.
Hindus are essentially monistic, here is a quick definition

Monism is the metaphysical and theological view that all is of one essence, principle, substance or energy and that there is one, universal, unified set of laws underlying nature.

monotheism causes problems - like mine is better than yours, I have a bigger fist than yours, my god is superior to yours!

Monism, doesnot - is perhaps more inclusive at one level, and at another allows diversity. That is why by and large, what ever be your favourite form for god, a hindu is at peace religiously with another hindu (even though one could be praying to the monkey and another to the tiger).

Hinduism in its extreme limit allows you to be a total atheist and still be a hindu.

Re: # 261 aunty zee,

if we canot remember our own dead, why should we expect others to think/remember our dead?

There is no free lunch or free launch in this world!

Re: # 262 here it is sanatani

aham brahmasmi - I am brahman
tat tvam asi -you are the absolute (tat/brahman)/ Thou art That

now also aham bhrahmasmi is another from of aham sat-cit-ananda

Re: # 263 you are right there....the core is mono. Aroundit appears to be the theme ``individual practise`` - atleast that is what I have read e.g Christopher Isherwood and others.

Re: # 256
I don`t think it is upto you or sanatani to decide this. It is up to individual Hindus how they practise their religion. I myself think Hinduism is superficially polytheistic and actually monotheistic, but this is just my opinion.

Re: # 256

Oh really. My rage is neither impotent nor abundant. And oh so Hinduism is monotheistic, my god what a gem. Then please enlighten us how is it so.

Sanatani

#241 by hamidm2

does any one remember how many people were killed in the earthquake or the tsunami ?....... what earthquake? which tsunami ? ... 2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ......... zeemax is right, there is a huge civilizational difference ...

Exactly. It is so tough to remember the 72,000 in the earthquake and the 210,000 of the tsunami. But it`s easy to remember the 2973 `little eichmanns` of 9/11.

(The term `little eichmanns` is courtesy Ward Churchill)

RELIGION IS WRONG

=== Interact Filtered ===
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#257

Dilli,

I agree wholeheartedly!

Re: # 254
why dont all hindus and muslims convert to Sikhism, there will be no more hindu=muslim problem for ever.

Sanatani #various,

``If my fellow Hindus are intelligent...`` - you are a Hindu ? No kidding !!
I am deeply impressed by the Bajrang-dal`like impotent (and abundant) rage
you display. Wish more of us had similar keyboad skills.

By the way, you do realise that Hinduism is monotheistic as well, don`t you ?
I know your knowledge of Islam is supreme and complete, but understanding
Hinduism would be useful too, no ?

Zeemax,

``Hence the Jehad``...ah, so the purpose of jehad is

1) save muslims from Sanatani ?
2) save shias from sunnis ?

Veeresh -

To sum up this tragedy, in current circumstances there should not be any train service between the two countries. It`s better to have no infratrsucture than have one which is poorly run. Life is too short to experiment on a poorly run train or any other mode of transportation. Despite all the development, 3rd world countries will stay where they are in their thought process. Just because it said ``Samjhota Express`` it did not mean anything. Ideally, a private company needs to be consulted for improving the infrastructure and instituting proper security.

Re:sanatani

[..On a positive note my first salutation to you is proof that I hope for ghar vapsi

Then we can have a dialogue on what is better Veerashaiva or Visheshadwaita...]

Sanatani, how long does it take to convert to Islam? 5 minutes. Just say the kalima, change your name and thats it. Perhaps get circumcised, but even that is not critical for the converts.

How long does it take to convert to hinduism? No clear answer. Some say there is no conversion to hinduism. Some say shuddhi although that is in history. In fact, hindus do not even bother to preach their faith to non-hindus. Even if you do convert, what caste do you get? Again no clear answer. If you convert, will the existing hindus accept you and start roti-beti ka rishta? Most likely not.

This is the crux of the problem. It is a quantity and head count game in this world and we just do not play that game. Hinduism does not have a streamlined process for people to enter it and join its society. This is the reason it could never fight back against Islam. People got converted by some invader. Mostly they did it to save their necks not because they wanted to leave their faith en masse. However afterwards, hindus should have aggressively recruited them back to the fold. People like Hamidm or Salim Chauhan types would have returned back once the invaders went away. If that had happened, we would still have a hindu subcontinent. However, due to the failure to recruit back, Islam was able to get a permanent foothold and grow to the point of parition and all the problems we have today. So the problem is in our own faith`s inability to pull in people. Why blame your opponent when you are not prepared to participate in the game?

Re: # 249

Chauhan Bhai you are sir an eediot,

In India it is the Punjus who are in the forefront of giving the Hindus give lots but look like misers when compared to Sardars.

It is the Islam stooooopeed.

But hamidm is correct let us not waste time in mourning the muslims killed let us mourn the Hindus

Sanatani

Re: # 244

Abe Mohar,

Hurramzade you R mocking GR8 secularist follower of various Gandhis and Nehrus and ... and ... (well the 1st 2 R OK) Shri Anil Kapuria.

The cultic code is ``Jehad till Kufr is destroyed``, the Jehadis are doing their duty, the secularist duty is to help all Non-Hindus perform their religous duties so what if a few hundred, thousand, million Hindus are killed (the figures given describe the level of secularism if the death of a few hundreds is ok you r a secularist if a few thousand a super secularist and if you agree with the anhillation of the entire Hindu population then you r a Nehru/Gandhi or one of their family members) if you dare protest or potray the truth you R adding fuel to fire as Zeemax says so the Jehad.

Please note the Jehad is happening not because of what Allah commanded but because I have rejoiced in the death of some Muslims, pls note the Muslims are such gr8 astrologers that they knew after this bomb attack I would write this so some 1500 years ago they started Jehad.

See in my report card there was one remark that was consistent ``trouble maker``.

I apologise to the victims of Jehad, its all due to me.

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 242

Anil,

Pity you posted this before I mentioned ``wajib ul qatal``.

You have hope from me indeed hope pe duniya kayam hai, but what exactly is this hope about/ for? I shall await an answer from you before reply why I have no hope from your kinds?

Sanatani
P.S. this macaulayite education has suceeded in making nothing but RNI`s out of a large minority of English medium educated Indians. That is why I have put my kids in a Sanskrit medium school.

For the uninitiated RNI means Resident Non Indian for a better understaning see the 4M report on http://sabha.info

Re: # 231
Chauhan Bhai,

Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that says ``wajib ul qatal``.
Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that says ``la illaha ill allah peadophile rasul of the moon god``
Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that says ``jews are pigs``, ``xtians are monkeys`` ``polytheists and fire worshippers even worse``
Pls tell me how does one have a dialogue with a religion that places the value of a Hindu woman 1/33rd of a muslim male

And right I do not even wish to have a dialogue with any of my co religionists on this: Islam is evil period. If we cannot get rid of Islam lets do the next best thing get rid of muslims.
Followers of the peadophile murderer heareer of voices of the arab moon god should be treated the same way as they treat those who are not of their type. Kill, convert, enslave expel.

And mind you I am not totally against ``wajib ul qatal``, people like parthab and anil come to ones mind when one thinks of it.

If my fellow Hindus are intelligent and accept what I am saying then more power to them.

Otherwise I hope the lunatics (followers of the lunar god ak.a. ubal allah) get their hands on Nukes and let us have the mad hatters tea party soon.

Sanatani

P.S. In an earlier post while praising your cult of murder and hate one of the things that attract you to it you said ``Strict Monotheism`` care to elaborate what is gr8 or praiseworthy about monotheism and jealous gods.

Salim katue chorh de I know your cult of murder terrorism and hate so very well (history, theology and living amongst your ilk et al) that you will never win any points against me or be able to prove me wrong on what I say about eslam.

On a positive note my first salutation to you is proof that I hope for ghar vapsi

Then we can have a dialogue on what is better Veerashaiva or Visheshadwaita

#241 Hamidum Sahib {``salim mian,
..... i think you are close to getting the point ....does any one remember how many people were killed in the earthquake or the tsunami ?....... what earthquake? which tsunami ?

... 2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ......... zeemax is right, there is a huge civilizational difference ``}

Hamidum Sahib,
The only thing obvious to me is that the compassion of Paki Punjus is heavily influenced by the ethnicity of the victims. Approximately 85,000 Pakistanis, almost none of them Urdu-speaking Mohajirs, perished in the earthquake, one of Mother Nature`s most violent furies.
In marked contrast to the reaction displayed by you and other Pakistani ``Sons of the Soil,`` the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs of Karachi overwhelmed the logistical capacity of the Pakistani Army in the massive support of relief supplies for the Kashmiri, Pathan, and Punjabi victims.

Re : hamdim2

“... 2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ......... zeemax is right, there is a huge civilizational difference”

You and most Americans might not remember this but nearly 1600 people died last year in Katrina.

hudge civilization difference for sure!

Some folks are milking the death of people in 9/11 politically and you are proud of being a succor!


Regards,


Faruk

#245 arjun {``It transpires that Pakistan was adamant to take back their citizens who had survived the blast, no matter what their medical condition. To make matters worse for them, they were rushed out of the sanitised burns unit in the afternoon, but until the time of writing their aircraft had not taken off, ostensibly due to ‘‘technical reasons’’. In other words, they are waiting in the plane without medical attention. ``}

Arjun,
If all of this is true, then I am really disgusted at the behavior of the Pakistani government. What is the urgency in moving badly burned people from the hospital? I have heard of stories where Pakistani citizens have traveled to India for medical attention. So, it doesn`t make any sense for these victims to be moved so quickly.

Once again, because of the ethnicity of these people, the intentions of the Pakistani government are very suspicious. They are in such a hurry to repatriate recently badly-burned Pakistanis from a hospital where they are getting good medical attention. They are in no hurry to repatriate similar Urdu-speaking Pakistanis who have been rotting in Bangladesh for 36 years.

When will Pakistan start caring more for its own citizens than what is dubiously politically or militarily advantageous to its government?

#245 how could a C-130 from another country enter, land, officers come to hospital and take patients away? Also what was the rush to transport rest of the train load across border in a matter of hours? aren`t many of these people witnesses?

hey..these are the same bunch of people who`d rather let their citizens die than accept indian helicopter help..

Pakistan forcelifts Samjhauta survivors

NEW DELHI: Seven survivors of the Samjhauta Express tragedy were forced on Thursday to leave Safdarjung Hospital on short notice and taken away to a waiting Pakistan Air Force aircraft to be flown back home.

All of them were badly burned and a few of them pleaded that they be allowed to stay back for a few days more for their wounds to heal. Some said they had no one at home to look after them. But the doctors said they were helpless; these were orders from above.

It transpires that Pakistan was adamant to take back their citizens who had survived the blast, no matter what their medical condition. To make matters worse for them, they were rushed out of the sanitised burns unit in the afternoon, but until the time of writing their aircraft had not taken off, ostensibly due to ‘‘technical reasons’’. In other words, they are waiting in the plane without medical attention.

Some of them need it badly. For instance, 9-year-old Shamim was on ventilator when he was almost dragged out of Safdarjung’s ICU along with six others and put on a PAF special aircraft to be airlifted to Lahore. Some of the blast victims cried in vain to be allowed to stay back till they recuperated.

As early as Monday, Pakistan asked the Indian government for permission to bring a C-130 transport aircraft to airlift injured Pakistani citizens from Indian hospitals. Baffled, the Indian government took a little time to digest this. The Pakistani victims had been badly injured in body and in spirit and it seemed a very strange request. Finally, India said the injured could be removed only after medical clearance.

Re: # 242
[....Of course India has its Sanatani to be ever ready to fuel...]

What`s wrong with that?... we have tried all bhai-bhai stuff for years... everybody who is anybody have been lighting candles at wagah border for years... what did that get us?...

See the washpost editorial from dawn:
http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/22/op.htm#4
``The camps have operated unhindered since at least September, when Pakistan`s military ruler, Pervez Musharraf, agreed to a separate peace deal with local Taliban leaders. Since then, cross-border attacks by the Taliban into Afghanistan have tripled, according to the US military.``

+++

Taliban, jihad is fully active and functional... there is no change... there will never be any change... this is pakiland we are talking about... :)

Re: # 241
[...2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ...]

One guy died 1400 years ago - shias are still mourning and mutilating themselves... :)... and look where all that mourning has taken them...

So mourning is not the issue... the issue is what is being done so that it never happens again... from the way things have been handled by americans, things doesn`t look good... Osama is still out there, Al Qaeda is actually re-building itself safely inside pakiland, iraq is on fire, iran is thumbing its nose, afganistan is still unstable, pakis are still supporting taliban....

Ameicans have screwed up, screwed up big time... too much of 9/11 mourning has made them blind and stupid... Re-electing people of questionable committment and competence has been a major blunder and it`s all because of excessive mourning for 9/11...

People need to stop mourning and start going after jihadis, pakis, arabs, taliban and whole bunch of riff-raff that are still alive and plotting the next attack...

Re: # 241

Hamidm Sahib:

``... 2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ......... zeemax is right, there is a huge civilizational difference ....``

By this count when 10,000 people die in an incident, nation should be mourning in India. Whoever, has been mourning of Watts Riots? You may not even remember it.

The saddest part in that part of the world is that every such incidents turn into religious or India-Pak issue. Of course India has its Sanatani to be ever ready to fuel.

I still have hope from the grandkid generation of the partitionists.

Re: # 236

salim mian,

..... i think you are close to getting the point ........ the 240 odd posts on this board have nothing to do about the horror of the murders and the loss of innocent life, they are all about scoring political points ......... the living in that part of the world have too many other worries, they do not have the time to worry about the dead ........... does any one remember how many people were killed in the earthquake or the tsunami ?....... what earthquake? which tsunami ?

... 2973 people died on 9/11 and the nation still mourns them ......... zeemax is right, there is a huge civilizational difference

....contd....

What hamidm means is that brown blood is a lot less valuable than gora blood. If 60 goras die, that`s news. If 60 brownies die, it`s business as usual.

Pass the salt please ...

#232 by Salim_Chauhan

What hamidm2 means is that let`s move on to the two-car (three?) garage.

#230 by sanatani

Always knew that. Nothing new. Thereby the Jihad.

#224 by mohar11

On what evidence do you say it was the Jehadis?

#234 hamidum {``30, 40, 100 people dying in the sub-continent is not considered a big deal ............. a headline like ``60 killed in headon collision between two buses near on gt road gujranwala`` is not a subject for discussion at the breakfast table - ``}

Hamidum Sahib,
You may be right about the value of life in the subcontinent, but acts of terrorism are still noteworthy and deserving of disgust, fear, anger, and unacceptance. Road accidents, as evil and avoidable as they are, cannot be compared to the horrific murders in Panipat.

#230 hmmmmm.....chowk macaca number 125345 seems to be having convulsions.

Re: # 232

salim,

.... i am not trying to be funny - just stating the facts ......... 30, 40, 100 people dying in the sub-continent is not considered a big deal ............. a headline like ``60 killed in headon collision between two buses near on gt road gujranwala`` is not a subject for discussion at the breakfast table - most people glance at it and simply say ``please pass the salt `` ............. let`s get real and stop mocking the dead ...

Re: # 231

I think the description should be.....despicable misanthropes....mistaking hoi-pollio 4 jihadis.

#213 hamidum2 {``............ i think two days of mourning is enough for a few dozen malnourished and impoverished south asians - i am sure more people die in the daily road accidents in bombay and karachi .......... let`s not forget what general westmoreland said: ``life is cheap in asia`` ............. it is still true
......... let`s move on``}

Hamidumdum,
Now you are not even funny - just a plain old bigot. :(

#230 Sanatani,
Dear Sanatani,
Your viewpoint expressed in #230 makes everything so clear. I thought that you were really interested in dialogue, but your sentiments are both overwhelming and crystal clear.
Thanks,

Re: # 131

Chal oye Aasif,

Sadna nahin kehti main kehta hoo. I rejoice over the deaths of all Pakis on the train. The death of Pakis living in India (a.k.a muslims) even more.

Basically one does not need Hindu Terrorists to do this, the actual term should be counter jihadis, any decent false flag can make the mossies do this to each other.

Did a little bit of research on the Ali/Hasan/Hussein question came back with 1 fact (and this in New Delhi not Bahraich or Kairana or Shravasti) the true Sunnis hate for these guys can at times be gr8r than for Hanuds.

Interestingly the guy also said kaffiron ko Allah ne gumraah kiya hai, Shiaon ko Ali ke Jano ne aur un logon ne khud ko.

Sanatani.

As you sow so shall you reap. You sons of Sows (Female Pigs)

#227`` a large number of sindhi hindus were travelling.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/21raman.htm

So now, does that make you feel better? ``
.........................................
Any life lost irrespective is mournfull...but to trivialise or justify it B/C they happen to be smugglers is like giving capital punishment to petty thief....

Besides i am not aware through my knowledg of chemistry that any medicinal use of chemical can cause this kind of fire or explosion..

Ref Folio # 226

[Having a US passport and living in the US is thanks to Jinnah?]

Absof@$*inglutely. Otherwise, Pakistanis would come under the 20,000 immigrant visas per year limit for India. Now they have the Pakistani quota of 20,000 visas per year.

Re:nutcasejob

[.That is why zeemax you are not going to see your lists. That is why Tahmed32 the only people cryng and worried about this train burning are the pakistanis. Do you seriously think the Indians care. See their interacts here as an example. Ample evidence to prove you right....]

Nutcase, the latest reports coming in show that more hindus died in the firebombing than muslims. Among the pakistanis, a large number of sindhi hindus were travelling.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/feb/21raman.htm

So now, does that make you feel better?

Re: # 225

/////Thank you Jinnah, that is what I say!! We can live in peace....////

Hypocrat Sir, Having a US passport & living in the US is thanks to Jinnah?

#221 nutcasejob: certainly there are macacas among indians. lots of macacas. macacas that puff out their chests making loud claims about themselves and insults to ``pakis`` in an effort to overcome their complexes (as you can see from the macaca poster dharma below) and for whom human tragedy is meaningless.

Thank you Jinnah, that is what I say!! We can live in peace, but with an international border that they need a visa to cross. :-)

zee

if it were the plain old incompetence, things would be much simpler... but it ain`t so... this is plain old jihad...

#222 by Folio

1) Samjhota Express is not an ordinary domestic train. It is a special cross-border service. On the Pakistan side complete lists are recorded with passport details.

2) You`re mixing apples and oranges. Did any of the dead passengers have a criminal charge by either side?

:~)

Zeemax,


Welcome back.

Only the bogies with reserved seats/berths would have the list(s) of passengers, seat-wise/berth-wise. For unreserved bogies, there would be none. This is true for all traisn in India.

As for joint investigation, would you kindly exend the same argument to investigating the case of our man Sarabjit/Manjit?

Pl also consider to extradite Salahiddin to India. We will definitely petition Indian govt for joint investigation.

zeemax and tahmed32 are right. Dharma is wrong. Pakistan is always right and correct in these matters. They are more aware of their peoples and care for them more than the horrible hunoods do for thier people. Unless they are hindoos!

That is why zeemax you are not going to see your lists. That is why Tahmed32 the only people cryng and worried about this train burning are the pakistanis. Do you seriously think the Indians care. See their interacts here as an example. Ample evidence to prove you right.

zeemax and tahmed32 are right. Dharma is wrong. Pakistan is always right and correct in these matters. They are more aware of their peoples and care for them more than the horrible hunoods do for thier people. Unless they are hindoos!

#217 by mohar11

Not at all. It was an accident. Its because they`re too embarassed that their incomepetence will be out in the open. These nincompoops do not even HAVE passenger lists.

This tragedy is not about getting all scores who is to be blamed?

This tragedy is more than that ........alas some people from both sides don`t miss any chance to play blame games just to boost up their selfish egos....sad ...........

I can`t get over this tragedy........Let`s all mourn for this human tragedy..............

Let`s all keep few moments of silence and pray for those poor humans who are killed for no sin.................

Re: # 214

because, indians did it... they bombed a bunch of pakis... you know, to take revenge...

Re: # 213

this is not about malnourished south-asians dying... it`s about jihad... which also affects you well-nourished fat cat americans... don`t you get it?...

Futility of bhai-bhai with pakis

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 02 22 story_22-2-2007_pg3_2

Can anyone telle me: (1) why the indians are still unable to provided lists of the dead; and (2) why`re they unwilling for a joint investigation as Pak has proposed?

............ i think two days of mourning is enough for a few dozen malnourished and impoverished south asians - i am sure more people die in the daily road accidents in bombay and karachi .......... let`s not forget what general westmoreland said: ``life is cheap in asia`` ............. it is still true

......... let`s move on

the only way tahmeds of pakiland can live without shame for being a paki is finding
some fault with others and equating the wrongs. It is all same same. Pakis are
corrupt, indians are corrupt. we are same. Pakiland has beggars and india has beggars.
it is all the same. We have islamic terrorists and we have hindu terrorists - Again
samt thing. When you compare wrongs magnitude does not count. Even one small
incident (one dowry killing, one infanticide, one mob violence,..etc) matters because
when innocents suffer it is not right. But tahmeds of the pakiland never compare
rights. Because there magnitude counts. Noone cares about donut shops when
ther others have the largest steel plant in the world. For example tahmeds (also
their cohorts psecs) never comment on news items like this:
IIM-A student gets Rs 1.1 crore offer (250,000 US$)
Sources said the highest salary believed to have been offered at Harvard to students with an average relevant work experience of 10 years is $280,000 (Rs 1.23 crore) and the average, $130,000 (Rs 57 lakh). The average offer for IIM-A`s PGPX is $120,000 (Rs 52 lakh)

Let us keep believing indians and pakis are same for tahmeds sake while we are
leaving the pakis far behind!

Re: # 209

Yep. They`ve not yet graduated to that level. Their forte is street-level goondaism. The suspects who said abt going to Ahmedabad is a ruse to get down from the train & avoid death. May be true ....... as well.

Some of the Pak interactors disbelieve the possibility of jihadists behind the tragedy...but who knows.....In Kashmir the lashkars & shaheed-seekers throw grenades in the streets of Srinagar. The victims are always fellow Muslims and Kashmiris. Some professionals here say that RAW did it. Prolly not. RAW had a soft corner for Mohajirs.

In the meanwhile police in Dehli do their investigations than talk abt an odd phone call. They should not make fool of themslelves as it happend in the case of Guru (extracting confession, torture, fabricating a story to suit the guess-work of the investigators etc.,). An odd phone call from Kashmir to Pakistan does not constitute a consummate evidence. At best that wud be a news brief for the media.

During Advani`s time there were dozens of ISI agents who were caught in India. People forgot those cases and nobody knows abt the convitions.

Going by the looks of the suspects - as appeared in the pictures circulated - they do not look like Kashmiris or Pak-Punjabis.

Re: # 197
[...Let us find means to improve ...trust between peoples...]

Sure... while at it, let`s us also find cure for cancer... :)

There are just too many people in pakiland who believe in jihad against kufrs... the concept of Dar-ul-muslim and Dar-ul-kafir is right there in koran and it`s a basic tenet of islam as it stands today... there will be always be large number of people who will be willing to fight and kill kafirs based on that cancept... there is nothing you can do about it...

So all this ``muslim-kafir bhai bhai`` is good on paper, makes people go mushy-mushy... but it ain`t going to work... we have seen this time and again around the world...

heck, pakis in britain are openly calling jihad against their fellow-britons - in their mosques, community centers... and there is hardly any muslim protest against it... no rallies, no marches... hardly any community actions to stop such activities and vilify the proponents... In fact - pakis make every effort to hide it, sweep under the carpet and accuse others of ``islamophobia``...

Wisen up... stop this bhai-bhai non-sense... :)

I doubt that RSS chaaddis did this bombing... chaddis are good at doing riots and they are very primitive in their choice of ``weapons`` - knives and sticks... they hardly use even guns... making ``high-tech`` bombs like the ones used would be a step-up for them ... there is simply no precedent of chaddis bombing anything... of course, there is always a first time, but I doubt bombing the train to pakiland is a big statement for the kind of ``politics`` they play...

ANd even if they did bomb the pakis, what`s the big deal?... I know, this is not PC and sensitive thing to say - but hey, pakis are bombing hinuds for years, so why shouldn`t hinuds bomb a bunch of pakis?...

Re: # 203

I think these formalities should very swift... the minimum time for corrupt officials to interact with passengers, the better it will be.

While we are still mourning the tragic loss of innocent human life in Panipat, it may be rather premature to speculate on the identities or origins of the murderous perpetrators. We can only hope that they are quickly identified, apprehended, tried, and punished without the usual finger pointing and associated agenda of scoring political points. We can, however, ponder the likely culprits who may have had a bizarre interest in creating this horrific tragedy:

1. Al Kayda - I seriously doubt the involvement of this reprehensible group. They have plenty of enemies and lucrative targets within Pakistan and their main ``enemies`` are Mushy, the Pakistani military, and Shias. The victims in the Samjhota Express were primarily Muhajirs from Karachi and Indian Muslims traveling to Karachi. There are both Shias and Sunnis among Mohajirs and Indian Muslims.

2. Tally Ban - Same as above.

3. Right-wing Hindutva types - while these groups relish killing of Muslims, their main theater of operation is mostly in Gujarat, MP, and Maharashtra. For many years, Muslims and Hindus have gotten along quite well in UP. There are few Muslims left in Haryana and even Delhi for that matter, to merit a communal incident. While these fanatical groups may not endorse the thaw in Indo-Pak relations, they are probably not that averse to the current peace initiative. This rapprochement, which is quite favorable to India, is being adopted by Mushy because of his own problems with domestic terrorism. Lastly, the Hindutva types don`t have any specific issues with Pakistani Mohajirs that they would target these visitors.

4. Indigenous Indian Muslim terrorists - I don`t think so. Targeting Mohajirs from Pakistan or Indian Muslims traveling to Pakistan does not make any sense for this scenario.

4. Kashmiri ``Mujahideen`` - in my opinion, these are the most likely culprits. The peace process is against their interests. Pakistani Mohajirs are the least supportive of Kashmiri aspirations for independence or union with Pakistan. Pakistani Mohajirs have the most to gain from Indo-Pak harmony. If Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan, it just adds to the population of ``Sons of the Soil`` who traditionally persecute Mohajirs. Also, continuing hostility between India and Pakistan puts the Indian relatives of Pakistani Mohajirs in jeopardy at the hands of the majority in India. Lastly, Indian Muslims are probably the most vehement opponents of Kashmir becoming independent or joining Pakistan - it would decrease the number of Muslims in India and provide another pretext for right-wing Hindutvas to blame ALL Muslims as fifth columnists.

Let`s see what evolves. For now, we need to pray for the dead and provide medical care and reassurance to the injured and survivors.

Re: # 205
thats is basically my point. At heart one can be a bleeding heart liberal, but the people perpetrating these utrocities are not - they are motivated by money and power. They do not care for the ordinary folk like us (for all I know I could have been one of them passengers on the train) - we are meaningless commodities to them - mules basically. If I were on it, the only ones who feell the pain for many years to come would be my family - the rest of the world cries a few tears for the mass who died and they move on, and remember this only when the next act is committed. That is what I have been trying to say - this has happened before many time. we all cried. forgot about it. and next time - there are some more.

What I am saying is it is fine to cry and pour tears and shout about peace (ala Tahmed32 ustaad as below in #204), but we do diddly squat about catching the guys who did it.

Time to remove the blinkers and see this for what it is? Peace, love, harmony etc are all fine and dandy things in this world. Till the guys who did and their motives are eliminated, I am afraid you will see this repeated n-number of times. All the philosophising will get you nothing.

This sort of killing we have witnessed many times each time it causes me great deal of anguish donot get me wrong. But I feel anguish alone, and wearing a bleeding heart on the sleev does not answer anything.

#187 by queen_cut&paste

MONEY:

I hope that you get to that stage in your existence when money is not the end all for you. Your realism is only restricted to a level of prosperity. If you happen to believe that you have the best you can eat, clothe, home, car etc. you will get to the limit of wealth very quickly. Remember! You cannot sleep in 2 beds, drive 2 cars, eat 2 steaks, shit in 2 bathrooms, or screw 2 women. Everything beyond one is ego.

But the point is what keeps those who have achieved this level of prosperity going? Is it purely ego which makes a Premji or Warren Buffet go to work every day? Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to just cash in the billions when the timing is right? As far as I understand Buffet who lives an utterly Spartan existence does it just because he loves doing it. He cant think of a better thing to do then what he is doing even if he wasn’t getting paid to do it.

Feeling the pain for another human being, has everything to do with the morals that we grew up and the habits that we have formed. I often wonder why when Sunami hits, or there is drought in Somalia or genocide in Rwanda, we don’t look at or expect a country like Saudi Arabia or Libya or China to do anything about it. Of course it is the West that we look at because it is in their moral code that such help is warranted where as China or Taiwan or Libya who are equally capable would get a free pass.

delhiwala: I am back, sir. Just taking a little work break from chowk. :-)

I have already made my basic point a number of times (i.e. the vision of a peaceful subcontinent represented by the samjhota train is anathema to half brained, heartless individuals, be they hindu or muslim; and that this vision is the one that all thinking individuals, be they hindu or muslim, share).

Your points 1-5 are fine, and basically consistent with what I am saying.

The most constructive suggestion I can add is: Keep the basic point I have been making in mind when writing anything on this incident. Because it is too easy to do exactly what the perpetrators (i.e. the half-brained, heartless individuals referred to above) would like to see - i.e. for average Indians and Pakistanis calling for a halt to things like the samjhota express (as some have done).

Now I have to to. cheers.

#200, Dillidost,
You are so right in advocating this freedom to travel after crossing the border. After all, that is what happens in most other countries that border each other. Also, terrorists will not have such a ``homogeneous`` target for their murders. However, I think both countries are too paranoid about ``spies`` and want to control such movements, even to the morgues. :(

#197 by delhiwala on February 21, 2007 1:00pm PT


Tahmed:
What is your point and suggestion?


tahmed`s point is always the same: Anyone questioning or pointing out paki support for jihadi terrorism is hateful. the act of supporting the terrorism itself is noble..pointing it out is hateful...

Re: # 197
where are you now Tahmed? Yooo-hoooo....

Salim,
I really think that the best thing to do for Indian/Pakistani govt is to make border crossing as the most important service they provide to travellers.

In other words, you should be able to travel to Wagah on your own and show passport and cross to India. From that point onwards you are on your own wheather you take Car, Taxi, Bus, airplane or OX-Cart is your choice.
That is the best solution to save people from sitting like cattle in cages in third class dabba of the train.

Last but not least, terrorists will not have a single target to choose with this appraoch of distribution.

#196 {``Salim/192 - thank you, I hope you are doing well too, it is good to read your posts most of the time though I wish you would ignore the taunts and the attacks and get along with your humour, some of which has been pointed at me also, but taken in good spirit, I assure you. ``}

Veeresh,
Thanks for your quick response. I really miss your interesting travelogues and the ensuing comedy that adds spice to your fascinating revelations. The Bear `N Hunter show really got twisted into something that I never intended - Oh well. Please do write again. I thought that you were going to visit Karachi next.

I appreciate your answers:


a) The Indian Consulate in Karachi is held up because the Pakistani Government is unwilling to pay market rents in Mumbai City -

Veeresh,
The Pakistani government is under no pressure to make life easier for Indian Muslims visiting their relatives in Pakistan. :(

b) The Thar Express was laid up for the past few months, more due to the amazing floods experienced, please blame global warming.

Veeresh,
And this was held up for almost half a century - merely because that area in Sind is heavily Hindu and the Pakistani government did not want to open any border crossing other than in Punjab.

d) The state of some of the people at Safdarjung Hospital is terrible, and while it has moved ahead from the provide blankets and hot food scenario, it has not solved the reality that there are still a lot of unidentified bodies as wel as multiple claimants. Compensation will be a terribly difficult issue to resolve.

Veeresh,
Let`s all pray and hope that the loss of life does not increase and that those who have suffered injuries from this awful fate find quick recovery from the pain and scars.

#197 Dillidost,
Excellent points - maybe this tragedy can be turned around into something positive for both countries - DENY TERRORISTS THE SAFE HAVENS THEY NEED TO CONTINUE WITH THEIR MURDEROUS WAYS.

To be honest, I am not as worried about Kashmir as I am about Delhi, Lahore, Karachi, Benaras (Varanasi), Quetta, Mumbai, and Islamabad.

Terrorism is going to rob us all of our freedoms - to travel, to live, to think, to enjoy, to visit, even to breathe.

Re: # 195
Tahmed:
What is your point and suggestion?

You are not making any comment except commenting about other people`s comment leading to more comments from other people......and so on....

Make some constructive suggestion.

Given:
1) Everybody wants peace(at least most of the people).
2) Bad people caused this tragedy.
3) Good people should come out with some suggestions.
4) Innocent people died in this tragedy.
5) Let us find means to improve the quality of travel and trust between peoples.

Now start with above.....

Salim/192 - thank you, I hope you are doing well too, it is good to read your posts most of the time though I wish you would ignore the taunts and the attacks and get along with your humour, some of which has been pointed at me also, but taken in good spirit, I assure you.

(Though that stuff about the tall fair Customs officer which I walked into, and our friend Omar Q and his inability to get the bear and hunter joke were, what do I say, differently interesting. Khair . . .)

few factual points:-

a) The Indian Consulate in Karachi is held up because the Pakistani Government is unwilling to pay market rents in Mumbai City and also unwilling to locate in the suburbs or New Mumbai. So till the Pakistani Government gets a fix on what they wish to do in Mumbai, the Indian Consulate in Karachi is not permitted to function as a visa issuing centre. As a matter of fact, India has positioned a Consul in Karachi for the past few years.

b) The Thar Express was laid up for the past few months, more due to the amazing floods experienced, please blame global warming.

c) Our friend Ijaz Gul has been able to spot the correct reason here, and more power to his keyboard, I say?

d) The state of some of the people at Safdarjung Hospital is terrible, and while it has moved ahead from the provide blankets and hot food scenario, it has not solved the reality that there are still a lot of unidentified bodies as wel as multiple claimants. Compensation will be a terribly difficult issue to resolve.

+++

Thank you for your analysis too. I do wish I had saved some of your earlier posts, they were excellent, as barachota if I recall, as long as one did not succumb to the flattery . . . . hmmm . . .

delhiwala: #185 you write to plats ``I have a feeling that most likely this event was an accident caused by illlegal medical chemicals being smuggled to Pakistan by Biharis, or it was an attack by Jihadis(some Indian Muslim group with ISI backing).

I am not ruling out Hindu-extremists from Gujrat altogether, they may be the most nut-case of all, however they are not capable of doing such like attacks, they are only good for mob violence......``

I think you should read the police findings to date in India on this. Not that it matters whether it was hindu extremists or muslim extremists, like I said earlier - they both are obviously stupid enough to think that by such actions they can change the basic equation that is driving India and Pakistan towards peace.

hamidum2 {`` i really don`t see why people who were born and raised in india or pakistan after partition have any desire to visit the other side - god knows they are not most desirable tourist spots in the world and as it is we have enough beggars on both sides .........
...... all this cross border footsie and exchange of cricket teams is a waste of time as long as there is so much hatred on both sides ........ it was okay for dost-mittar to visit pakistan, but what did we gain from vereesh`s visit except learn that there were no chemists in islamabad and that pakis were collecting funds at dunkin donuts to launch a jihad against india .........
.......... this tragedy could have been avoided if people just stayed home instead of wandering into enemy territory .............
``}

Hamidum2 Sahib,
Were it not for the sad and tragic loss of innocent human life, I would have complimented you on your humor.
It is terrible that some terrorists will follow Mohajirs into ``enemy`` territory merely to kill them and thus hurt both Mohajirs and their ``enemy`` hosts - not to mention their Indian Muslim relatives. What a strange religion that we all share?

#187 Queen etc.: Thanks for the explanation. It is a load of gibberish - and I hope you can do better than this if you really try.

Veeresh,
It has been a very long time since I read one of your articles. Welcome back. Thank you for presenting the security aspect of this disaster that was waiting to happen. This train service is very important, especially for the Mohajirs and their descendants in Pakistan and their Indian relatives. Very close families have been torn apart by the stupidity and cruelty of partition. While the religious ``cleansing`` of Punjab was almost total, areas such as Sind, Rajasthan, UP, Bengal, Bihar, CP, Bombay, and Hyderabad were not made as ``homogeneous.``

As someone just pointed out, there are many man-made obstacles placed in the path of Mohajirs and their Indian relatives for their ordeal in visiting their kin. Visas that are issued only in the capitals, trains that take the long circuitous path through Punjab, and hostile customs and immigration officials in BOTH countries are bad enough. Now, we can add the curse of terrorism to the long list of indignities, cruelties, and harassment of these travelers. The overwhelming majority of travelers between India and Pakistan are Mohajirs from Karachi visiting their Indian relatives in UP, or Indian Muslims from UP visiting their relatives in Karachi. The major exception to this vast majority is the notable pilgrimage of devout Sikhs visiting Nankana Sahib and other holy places in Punjab.

It makes no sense for people from Karachi to travel to Islamabad just to get Indian visas and then travel once more north to Lahore to catch a train to Delhi and then UP. That is why the Thar Express (Khokrapar/Munabao) was restarted, but unfortunately for the dead in Panipat, that logical means of transportation has been sporadic and subject to either government`s whim de jour.

Whether the terrorists were Muslim LeT/SeS/LeJ/SIMI/AlKayda/TallyBan Jihadis (most likely) or right-wing Hindutva BJP/VHP/RSS/JS/SS/BD ``Sevarkars`` (most unlikely), we know who the victims were - Pakistani Mohajirs and their Indian relatives. These are the least terrorism-inclined people in either country. They are, for the most part, not involved with AlKayda, TallyBan, or even the Shia-killing Sunni Wahabbi extremism of Pakistan - imported from NWFP and Punjab.

Lastly, I find it appalling that some well-known Pakistani Punjabi bigots, notorious for their anti-Mohajir views, are shedding crocodile tears over this sad and avoidable loss of innocent lives. The very people, who don`t have the compassion to even acknowledge the existence, let alone repatriation, of stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh, are now lamenting the loss of similar, Urdu-speaking Pakistanis in the plain of Panipat.

Re: # 190

Delhiwala Sahib:

``This event will be exploited by both govt`s to prove their points. get real...``

I am all for it, but not in the direction you are implying. The difference would, therefore, be that it would not ``exploiting``, and using it to promote and market something different. Just think about it, and it can ``get real``.

Re: # 188
These PAkistanis were poor people and nobody cares about poor people in real terms.
Same in India, same in Pakistan. This event will be exploited by both govt`s to prove their points. get real.

Tahmed,
I am not a Macaca (which I dont even know what it means, I am assuming that it is derogatory).

I love Pakistanis and Peace between India and Pakistan, all I want is some kind of logical way of bridging this gap with practical solutions not just theoretic.

So please chill out a little, everybody loves you and Pakistan here.....

Indian Railways should annouce a five lakh Rupees compensation to the families of dead victims. It will go a long way in building cooperation spirity. it has been done in the past for Godhra`s victims. Laloo has turned Indian Railways profitable, and can afford to pay this compensation to the families of the poor and innocent victims who lost their lives.

Irrespective whether passengers were involved in summugling trade or not.

Most good things in trade start thru individual initatives. Private cable operators were illegal also for a very long time in India. Veeresh must have enjoyed watching illegally delivered TV to his home. Even IT industry started with individual initiatives, rather than government push.

India - Pakistan trade is supposed to grow from the present $2B to $9B in less than five years. These people are the first wave.

If a train is the mode of transport for this first wave, so be it. It must not be killed. Instead the service should be more efficient, when the movement is quicker, the chances for corruption go down, because there is simply not enough time for the corrupt official to extract bribes. I have seen this changing at India airports. I do not think we should make this train or this form of pre-cursor to trade, hostage to corruption on either side of the border.

Besides, I fail to understand, why customs is done in India on outbound passengers on the train departing India. This should be Pakistani problem and dealt on the Pakistani side. Indian problem is only when a train is arriving from Pakistan.

tahmed32 ustaad, here is the reason why I called you a hypocrite.

Yes, I said something which is harsh. But I also recognise that lovey dovey feel good stuff, we all talk about. The love for poor etc have no meaning whatsoever in the 21st century. You work for money, and you give consultantcy advice to people to make more money - infact in your previous incarnation you bank gave advice to countries on how to make money and generate income - often to the detriment of the nation. People feel happy b having feel good touchy-feely sentiments outside their work, when their work is all about carving up the other person or firm or country!

This train, essentially catered for the poor of the two countries. (as hamidm2 points I cannot fathom the nostalgia of the other amongst the second, third and forth generation). That the peerpetrators dinot care for this, but used it the train and its passengers as mules for their dirty work, is testament to MONEY. They dont care for the poor as long as they make the money. lives are not important

The bottom line is that. Money. All our homilies, and epistles from on high, ideologies etc are meaningless (indeed even the worse of the tolkinin kind are just meaningless) and meant to asuage our hearts and make us sleep better at night.

Now, you think this is macaca thinking. I say it is realism, and devoid of humbuggery, and the usual codswallop doled out by the elite. I could have said you were steeped into being the biggest humbug on chowk, given your previous job profile and what you say you do now, but I donot stoop so low. Perhaps, I could have said hypocricy, rather than calling you a hypocrite!

From the Times of India...seemed appropriate.

`Chacha, Ayesha bach gayee`
Pradeep Thakur
[ 21 Feb, 2007 0314hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

NEW DELHI: Khalid entered the Safdarjung Hospital ICU around 2 pm. He looked excited. He came straight to Shaukat Ali and blurted: ``Ayesha bach gayee .`` Shaukat hardly moved.

Perhaps he hadn`t heard Khalid or perhaps the tragedy of losing five of his six children in Sunday night`s blasts in the Samjhauta Express had turned him to stone.

Khalid repeated, `` Chacha , Ayesha bach gayee.`` Shaukat didn`t react at all. Then he whispered, `` Kya keh raha hai ? (What are you saying?)” `` Chacha , Ayesha has reached Attari,`` said Khalid.

Tears welled in Shaukat`s eyes. He said, ``My five children have died. I had looked around the bogie and at the station... I could not find one of them. How are you saying Ayesha has reached Attari? This must be some other Ayesha.``

Shaukat spoke in a tense falsetto; it seemed he didn`t wish to believe what he himself was saying. Khalid asked, ``Isn`t Ayesha 13-14?`` Shaukat nodded. `` Chacha , she is alive.

I was told at the Panipat station by officials that she is among those who have arrived at Attari,`` Khalid said.

``Did you find the other children?`` Shaukat asked. Khalid nodded, ``Yes, I`ve seen their bodies.``

Shaukat wondered if fate was playing tricks with him. Only a day ago, his world had come crashing on him and his wife Ruksana when they figured that their five children had been killed in the blaze. And now there was a silver lining: the eldest, Ayesha, was actually alive!

Shaukat jumped from his bed, and immediately grimaced in pain. `` Arre , Ruksana ko bol ,`` he told Khalid. But before Khalid could turn and reach the next cubicle where Shaukat`s wife lay with their year-old baby Aksha, Shaukat was shouting out to his wife through the glass partition, ``Ayesha bach gayee .``

Ruksana had eaten only one roti since Monday and her lunch was lying untouched on a table next to her. She was asking the nurse to clear the table and, if possible, get some milk for Aksha when I reached her some 15 minutes ago posing as a relative.

My assignment was to talk to the victims and try to get whatever leads I could on the possible perpetrators of the crime. And suddenly, I was caught in this high drama in which I seemed a total intruder. I stole a look at Ruksana. She was smiling. I quietly walked out of the ICU.

PS: TOI accessed the list of survivors and the dead. Ayesha`s name does not figure in either. There is one Arshia in the survivors` list. We pray for a miracle.

Re: # 184
Plato saab:
I agree with you.

I have a feeling that most likely this event was an accident caused by illlegal medical chemicals being smuggled to Pakistan by Biharis, or it was an attack by Jihadis(some Indian Muslim group with ISI backing).

I am not ruling out Hindu-extremists from Gujrat altogether, they may be the most nut-case of all, however they are not capable of doing such like attacks, they are only good for mob violence......

Delhiwala/Tahmed,

I just read Saeed Naqvi`s article quoted a few interacts back, and it seems that
this train is about the only viable way for poor people to go back and forth. Any
other mode of transport costs an order of magnitude (or two) more.

From a completely practical point of view, both govts should wonder whether raising
the ticket price to Rs.150 (instead of the current Rs120) would make a difference.
With about 1000 passengers, that would be an extra Rs 30K - spend it on tighter
security measures perhaps...more boots on the ground...

Re: # 179
Indian Soldier was a Sikh from Ferozepur, Mr Kashmira Singh.....

Re: # 180
Tahmed, you are too Jazbattee. I am more hurt by the loss of life of these people, as I also have some missing relatives from 1947 who might be living in Pakistan as Muslims. So dont brush me aside like Snow from the Windshield of your car after a Noreaster.

Truth is that India and Pakistan do not have logistics to accomodate travel of tourists(poor) ones, in trains. Rich-Gora tourists travel by airplanes. India has to suffer more and pay more prices because majority of the travellers are Muslims from Pakistan to India(not other way round), and majority of the distance travelled is in India, Wagah to Delhi is 400 Miles, and Lahore to Wagah is 40 Miles.

Let us collectively look at solutions, we all know that Police in India is corrupt(being corrupt does not make them anti-Pakistani). It will take time till things improve and meanwhile tourists will have to compensate for the cost incurred in ensuring security. Hopefuly, now you will agree with me.....

Re: # 176
Are you Salimdost?

Look Tahmed,
I am also very sorry about the loss of life of people(rich and poor alike). But I am merely, objectively making a suggestion to avoid such like incidents in future.
India and Pakistan have had so much violence (my family was the victim in 1947) that they have to tread this path of friendship very carefuly in short steps, that is all I am suggesting.

Trains cannot be protected by police, army etc. Airports, airplanes are more secure, if this option is not feasible then maybe have a border crossing Wagah, and let it be people`s responsibility to travel from there.

Why should India/Pakistan Governments be reponsible for commuting these people?

#177 hamidm: you say ``this tragedy could have been avoided if people just stayed home instead of wandering into enemy territory ..``

terrorists love guys like you. fortunately, the governments of india and pakistan dont seem to see things that way - kasuri went ahead with his visit to india the day following, signed a nuclear agreement, visited the wounded pakistanis in hospitals, an indian soldier laid down his life saving travellers, and so on. over time, this will prove to be just another stupid act that will not stop the subcontinent as it moves towards a more civilized way of living.

#173 what is wrong with that, my friend delhiwala, is that man does not live by bread alone. Those people who were killed on ``samjhota express`` may indeed have been poor as you say, but they were also the most deserving since they were members of families split between between india and pakistan. India (and Pakistan) would be a far richer country (in the broader sense of being more civilized) if such families were permitted to travel back and forth, then the ``tourist dollars`` brought by the wealthy.

i told you so

...........i have always maintained that nothing good can be expected from this cross-border tourism, exchange of cricket teams and other silly `confidence building measures` - it is naive and foolish ............ only people who were born in india and then moved to pakistan should be allowed to travel to india to visit their relatives and satisfy their nostalgia ........ same with visitors from india ........... i really don`t see why people who were born and raised in india or pakistan after partition have any desire to visit the other side - god knows they are not most desirable tourist spots in the world and as it is we have enough beggars on both sides .........

...... all this cross border footsie and exchange of cricket teams is a waste of time as long as there is so much hatred on both sides ........ it was okay for dost-mittar to visit pakistan, but what did we gain from vereesh`s visit except learn that there were no chemists in islamabad and that pakis were collecting funds at dunkin donuts to launch a jihad against india .........

.......... this tragedy could have been avoided if people just stayed home instead of wandering into enemy territory .............

#173 #75 Dilli dillidost

Do all india cares just b/c dead are of Pakistan or /and of different faith


Terror victims that BJP forgot
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, Feb. 20: Steeped in what they call the cultural essence of their ideology, all senior BJP leaders are sticklers for rituals of any kind.

They dutifully attend marriages and engagements, promptly offer condolences and are almost always the first to visit victims of any tragedy.

Yet no senior BJP leader has cared to visit the Samjhauta Express victims or their families.

Not Atal Bihari Vajpayee, not party president Rajnath Singh. L.K. Advani (in picture), usually the most serious about such visits, did not make the trip from his Prithviraj Road residence to Safdarjung Hospital, less than 5 km away.

After the 2003 Mumbai bombings, Advani had been one of the first politicians to visit the blast site at the Gateway of India and enquire after the injured at JJ Hospital. After last July’s train mayhem, he was again quick to visit the injured at King Edward Hospital.

Is the BJP not interested this time because most of the identified victims happen to be Muslims from Pakistan?

Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi bristled at the question. “What do you mean, no senior leader visited the victims? I went to the (blast) site today, so did Vijay Kumar Malhotra and Sahib Singh. The BJP president has formed a three-member team to inquire into the tragedy.”

Rajnath’s public show of concern has so far been limited to an attack on the Centre’s “soft policy” on terror at a news conference yesterday.

Malhotra, too, returned from the spot this afternoon only to launch a tirade against the government for being “soft on terror”. He spoke hardly a word on the victims or the trauma of their families.

...

Re: # 173
Also, if this train continues, it will always be a threat to India-Pakistan friendship and Pakistan will always blame India, leading to more trouble.

That is why scrapping this train and look for other alternatives is a better suggestion(maybe I should havementioned before).

option 1) Have a World class border on Wagah where they can screen people and their luggage with state of the technology like in USA. Passengers can cross on foot and tak buses on their own in India and Pakistan. If a passenger gets killed in other country then it is not Govt`s responsibility.

option 2) Let people travel through Air and let that be the only diembarkation port. Why not?

Re: # 159 what a pompous AH?

Re: # 171
Tahmed Saab: I am only saying what makes sense economically. You should see what kind of people travel in this horrible train full of passengers who are like caged animals.

I am not saying that India should not have any relationship with Pakistan, but we should start with rich travellers first as it would make more money for Indians and Pakistanis.
What is wrong with that?

Re: # 170
tolkinin, your lament

``The maxim of live and let live, sadly seems to have been replaced by
kill and get killed. How many more tears have to be shed before the tree
of peace takes root?! ``

Is a cry, we have all been crying for long now. As ou say ``Root causes are as old as hills.``, and since that age, the tree of peace has never taken root - this merely an observation. Maybe, as long as there are hills, the tree of peace will never take root. But when the hills disappear, what is there left for the tree to take root on? That is an interesting thought, atleast from my point of view.

delhiwala: you are a macaca too!! how disappointing. :-(

Root causes are as old as hills. Hatred and anger blindening the
eyes from seeing another as human being, nay one self as human being.

In the name of religion breeding intolerance, and in the guise of
justice seething vengeance, and in the name of setting things right
blundering all over, has become less of an exception and more of a norm.

The maxim of live and let live, sadly seems to have been replaced by
kill and get killed. How many more tears have to be shed before the tree
of peace takes root?!

I think India should scrap this Train and Lahore Bus and only retain the Nankana Sahib bus(because it is religious).

Most of the these Pakistanis who come on this train come with the intention of bringing goods and smuggling. Why even bother?

Instead India should focus on rich Pakistanis who travel by Air. There is more room to make money from such toursits, we already have enough poor why even bother with Poor Pakistanis.

The incident will never fade out of the memories of sensitive people of both countries. The worst hit community is of course the Urdu speaking ethnic group living on both sides of border. The great tragedy is that most of the Urdu speaking families are divided by partition. If a father is living in India then his children are in Pakistan and vice versa. They have to visit their relatives at any cost. The hurdles faced by them in this whole travelling process is gruesome.

Most of them live in Urban Sindh but have to travel all the way to Islamabad for gettig Visa which is often denied. Then for travelling they again have to come to Lahore to board the Samjhota express. There shud be Visa office in Karachi and Thar express shud run daily. Samjhota can be closed down then.

#166 by Faruk on February 21, 2007 8:13am PT


the people travelling on the ``samjhauta`` express have absolutely no say on the foreign policy of either country...as it is, the pakis are demanding that this train be given the level of security that`s not provided on any other train in India...so time to put the train out of everyone`s misery...

This is a good article on the subject.

Faruk



http://www.indianexpress.com/story/23773._.html

Saeed Naqvi

Posted online: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print Email

Saeed Naqvi




Intimations of mortality is what I would put it down to, this recent procession of friends who have died and whose ashes have had to be immersed in Hardwar or holy rivers elsewhere. Obviously these were Hindus.

A Muslim death, if one can trace down one’s ancestry a few generations, is a rather more territorial affair. An Indian Muslim, if he can help it, likes to be buried in his ‘native’ place. Since Justice Sachar has confirmed Indian Muslims as being a financially embarrassed lot, transporting the deceased from the location of his or her expiry is a huge inconvenience to relatives who are committed to fulfilling the wishes of the dead and of abiding by traditions. This reverie on ashes and graves has been triggered by the terrorist attack on the Samjhauta Express, which transports passengers from Delhi to Lahore and the other way round.

The terminals for this train being Delhi and Lahore creates the impression that it represents some durable system of sustaining people-to-people contact between the two countries. People-to-people, in the Indo-Pak context, would conjure up images of a burgeoning Hindu-Muslim jamboree. This is a huge misunderstanding about the Samjhauta Express, attacked by the terrorists on Sunday night killing almost 70.

Most of those killed were Muslims, both Indians and Pakistanis, returning from relatives in India or travelling to relatives in Pakistan. Some Hindus died too but these were mostly jawans of the Government Railway Protection Force. Their death sheds further light on the Samjhauta Express tragedy.

One of the oozing sores Partition left behind were divided Muslim families. As far as Hindus and Sikhs are concerned the transfer of populations was bloody but total.

The tragedy of Muslims has been of a different order, particularly the Muslims from UP, Bihar and Hyderabad. These families did not migrate en masse. Most were torn apart: parents in India; children in Pakistan. Brothers in India; sisters, married to men with a future on the other side, in Pakistan. An uncle of mine, a captain in the British Indian army actually placed a measuring tape on a map of undivided India to see if Bombay (where he was posted) and Karachi were the same distance from our village of Mustafabad, near Rae Bareli. They were. He moved to Karachi where generals and brigadiers of his acquaintance promised him the moon in the new Islamic state.

Mohajirs (or immigrants) were trapped in all sorts of ironies because this rather ambitious uncle of mine retired and died with no higher rank than that of a major! I am not for a moment suggesting that he would have made it as the army chief had he stayed on in India. The point I am making is that the destination as El Dorado soured as a dream for many Muslims who crossed over. Muslims from the most effete enclaves of India had to make the near impossible adjustment in the hegemonic hold of the energetic Punjabi.

It is largely these Muslims, poor souls, who populated the Samjhauta Express both ways. In a sense it is not a ‘samjhauta’ but a sort of ‘majboori’ or a ‘compulsory’ express. The Monabao-Khokrapar route in Rajasthan-Sindh and the Attari-Wagah train in Punjab have been in operation since soon after Partition, subject to the usual stoppages conditioned by fluctuations in political temperatures between the countries.

Initially, those who had crossed over to Karachi and Hyderabad in Sindh imagined (as did some of the earlier Congress leaders) that Partition was a temporary inconvenience and soon folks would move to and fro like in some imaginary Schengen visa regime. The opposite happened. Attitudes hardened as the two new nation states secured the contours of their distinct nationalisms. The two nations fought several wars, transforming that magical vale of Kashmir into a continuously muffled wail. Since 1989, not so muffled either. It was against this tragic backdrop that the poor on both sides clutched onto the only valuable, they had been left with — relatives on both sides of the border. This is where the Samjhauta Express comes in handy. And now is this thread too being snapped?

There are various categories of people who travel between India and Pakistan. The seminarists, track-two professionals and the rich fly. This costs Rs 15,000. The Delhi-Lahore-Delhi bus costs Rs 900 each way. Both these methods of transport are beyond the means of those for whom relatives are the primary emotional anchor in life — the poorest Muslims on both sides. The Samjhauta fare is Rs 120.

It is these poor lives that have been lost in a macabre incineration of the two coaches.

The Godhra train tragedy had a political consequence. After the tragedy and subsequent mayhem, Narendra Modi won the elections in Gujarat. Before the tragedy, the BJP was routed in UP.

What consequences might one expect from this tragedy? Either the authors of this ghastly act have been so subtle as to leave us all totally baffled. Or, they have been so foolishly transparent as to make their target crystal clear: the Indo-Pak peace process. Pakistan Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri was to arrive the next day. The pundits, of course, will get down to sequencing — Baghliar, Sir Creek, Siachen, Kashmir, the joint mechanism — each one of them sunk in deep thought.

Time was when one could consider New Delhi-Srinagar, India-Pakistan as one complex of issues. The lens now pans a much wider canvas. Americans are stuck in

Iraq, Afghanistan. Heaven knows what is in store for Iran. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India is

one contiguous belt. Is Indo-Pak peace possible in the midst of such regional volatility?

If this bilateral matter is not extricated from the blazes, then what hope for the great Indian surge? Under this huge canopy of strategic issues is being played out an existential drama in the life of Salma whose husband is buried in her UP village, father in Karachi. Where should she turn for the burial of her sister? And what of those poor constables, escorting the train, who were charred along with the passengers whose security they were supposed to oversee. How could they have escaped when the coaches of the Samjhauta are sealed in Delhi and unsealed in Attari — the quest for security resulting in its exact opposite.

Naqvi is a Delhi- based commentator

#163 why do you find it so hard to beleive that someone who does not join you in casting aside the samjhauta express outrage by saying ``so what? A train got burnt`` is anything but a hypocrite?

i read the rest of your post. that simply tries to expands on why you think anyone paying attention to the samjhauta express is out of line. so, i didnt miss anything when i skipped the rest of your post first time.

#163 as well (was missing at the end)

Re: # 160 ustaad, you spoken like a hypocrite! Why not read the rest of the interact before hitting the reply button?

As I said talk and words are cheap in the subcontinent (cheaper then life), I should have added even amongs the diaspora!

#161 actually, i am ignoring the article (which i havent read), and am here simply because the discussion on the samjhauta express is here. i dont know what this ``pilgrim`` business you write about is and what you are trying to say in that last sentence...but then, i always have had trouble trying to figure out what you are trying to say... :-)

tahmed32/160 - for somebody who said that this article should be ignored, you seem to be all over the place as the most frequent interactor. Thanks, again and have a nice day - I was hoping you would spot the usage of the word ``pilgrim`` and go for it, but I guess you are getting better? No hard feelings . . .

#159 ``so what? A train got burnt, a few people died``

spoken like a true macaca.

so what? A train got burnt, a few people died, happens every day on the subcontinent, nothing new. If it was the ISI assisted Jihadis who did, wait for a tit-for-tat episode on the other side. If it was the jihadis of their own bat, wait for the Pak state and Indians to string up a few jihadis, if ti was the Indian Gangs wait for a retaliation. These happen there. So why the tear jerks all over the place. (e.g no one has drawn a parallel between the train burning/bombing, and the killing of a minister and rocketing of another govt convoy in Pakistan - is there a connection?)

Nothing will come out of this. The money is being made as we write this stuff, by hook or crook. That is what matters, and it knows no politics, ideology or whatever.

Thus in a way Veeresh is right, follow the money trail and you have the culprits. He has not answered the question, what should happen if trail stops, and you locate the real head honchos? What then? We are all small beer, and write fluff to fill in the Mega Bytes.

Nevertheless, an article which for the first time points the finger in the right direction. The direction of MONEY, and not feel good things like ideology! For that Veeresh should be congratulated.

Reality says nothing will come out of it. Life is very cheap, talk is even more cheap on the subcontinent.

Raw_Dust #141: What`s ``What``? :-)

#149 ASO1: Please cut and paste where you see me writing bigotry.

Chowk Staff: In my post #137 (which you deleted) I dont recall using any strong language, other than refer to terrorists (hindu or muslim) as being half-brained, heartless individuals. In that post, I pointed to the irony that the samjhota express was anathema to both hindu as well as muslim extremists, given that it stood for peace. And in that post I wrote that both the muslim and hindu people who died are the true martyrs for all thinking Indians and Pakistanis.

I can recall nothing in that post that merits it being deleted.

RELIGION IS WRONG

What a shit! Shit, shit, shit....!!
I wrote my last interact yesterday at about 10 PM & thought of getting some pertinent reactions next morning. Today at 11 AM what I see is $$HIT!!!
I joined this blog very recently and found many of it`s articles, as well as the discussions, really very nice. I mean, thoughtfully written and intelligently discussed. But every time some of the members purposely try to bring gray shades of Indo/Pak, Hindu/Muslim relations. Sometimes is looks funny and interesting but mostly it gets quite murky. I hoped, this time these spoilers will be somewhat sober, thoughtful of the sad incident and write something of reason and relevance. I thought they will write of amity, friendship, peace and about fighting this menace collectively. Now what I find here is two days old blood, thoroughly digested by elites from India and Pakistan who don`t have to work even for their luxuries and have plenty of time and energy to waste.
Mind you, terrorism is breading here! In the minds of so called educated, well-read and learned people living in safety of their air-conditioned homes and offices.
Anyway, from safety (of poor from India and Pakistan) point of view, I have a few suggestions: 1- NEVER allow more luggage than what is legally permissible. The train must not be allowed to be used for business purposes.
2- Never allow relatives to enter the platform.
3- All the passengers and their luggage MUST be checked thoroughly.
4- Being a special train, fare should be subsidized. A mechanism can be evolved as to which country should bear the subsidy portion of the fare.
5- One on the train no passenger should normally be allowed to get down the train.

Samar

#110 by Aasif

It does not however absolve the indian government of serious lapses in security and criminal negligence.

Funny how you`re all outraged at the Indian government`s lapses, but silent on the Paki government`s use of terrorists as an instrument of state policy. Had Pakistan been sincere about banning these groups, perhaps we`d all be a bit more safer than we are when we travel.

Chowk`s Admin - What are Chowk`s interact guidelines? It seems that only Chowk`s admin is aware of those. It will assist the masses to learn more about those interact guidelines provided Chowk`s admin is aware of those. I can understand that it`s cumbersome and unrealistic to invigilate each board, but it is real silly to start removing interacts left, right and center without a decent explanation. Why even have an interact section when you are against the idea of interaction?

It`s unfair to remove interacts that were just opinions, e.g. HP and others. The childish bickering that got started should have been routed to unplugged than slapped as removed.

Are you guys biting more than you can chew?

Do care to contemplate! Otherwise, avoid publishing write-ups that will cause strong opinions and INTER-ACTION.

Thanks.

welcome back veeresh, as usual a great perspective. FYI currently in mumbai every railway station all entrances are manned by an AWAKE policewalla sitting on a desk (even at 2 am in the morning) and a company of armed guys napping around around the corner on call in case of an emergency. this kinda bombing and deaths is clearly due to failure of indian and paki states being able to take care of people in which jihadis (supported and funded by paki elites..chada is only enough for maybe friday meals) can operate smoothly.

``Is there an Ahmedabad link to Samjhauta blasts?
[ 20 Feb, 2007 2127hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


latest updates

AHMEDABAD: The blast at Panipat, aboard the Samjhauta Express, was preceded by an incident that seemed to link the suspects to Gujarat.

A Railway Protection Force (RPF) jawan accosted two unidentified persons on the Pakistan-bound train who claimed they had got on the train by mistake and had in fact wanted to go to Ahmedabad.

The duo got down just before the train reached Panipat and exploded into flames, killing 68 passengers and injuring many.

This piece of information has got the Gujarat police worried. TOI sources said that a high-level meeting was convened in Gandhinagar and was attended by officials of the Central Intelligence Bureau, Anti Terrorist Squad and other state intelligence agencies.``(TOI)

Re: # 139 tahmed:

All Pakistanis <> muslim
All Indians <> Hindu

For a person advocating ``We are all humans`` philosophy, you do carry lot of bigotry.....

For definition of <> contact ArjunM...........

The writer is disregarding the immense loss of life. Chowk should not publish such insensitive and rubbish articles.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Today there is yet another jihadi attack, this time in Pakistan on a woman minister, who was shot dead by a jihadi guy for absolutely no reason.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 02 21 story_21-2-2007_pg1_1

Apparently this fool was saying that women should not be leaders or organize marathons. Hence he decided to kill her.

Pakistanis need to see that the jihadi ideology has reached insane proportions. Its a mental disease.

Is there a Hindutva Ahmedabad link here?

dullabhati/119 - on Pakistani side, the distance is not covered by soldiers on horseback like on India side, but checked by static forces about 50 feet apart. The railway track on the Pakistani side is very badly maintained, the culverts are collapsing and there is no ballast stone left, on the border-Wagah stretch. On the Wagah-LaHore stretch, maximum speed is 40 kmph and often trin slows to a crawl of 10-15 kmph due to lack of track maintenance.

sadna/116 - the train doors are certainly not locked from outside - but the wagons are solidly loaded with cargo/goods so movement becomes difficult. Also, much of what is inside is combustible/flammable. This is an inherent part of a train which is 80% occupied by the poorer Pakistanis and 20% by the poorer Indians, travelling to Pakistan with everything they can lay their hands on and returning with dry fruits. Much of the cargo is also allowed because the stuff is given religious significance. (The dry fruit is often declared as ``prasad`` and the plastics/medicines/chemicals from India are often declared as ``gifts from Ajmer/fallanah hazrat/etc``

(The richer passengers use the flights - a 747-777-310/PIA and a 320/IC from Delhi, a 777-747-310/PIA and a 320-/UL from Mumbai - which often go full - so that gives you an idea of the loads, as well as by the many buses that now cross . . . ) 500-700 of the poorest then are left for the trains. As I have repeatedly said, go to Wagah, go to LaHore RS when this train comes in and speak to the 3-wheeler drivers. I did.

plays8 and others - ofcourse people cooked on this train. As they do on many trains in Pakistan, mentioned here by my worthy Pakistani colleagues, and in some trains in India. Though it has come down in India after some fires a few years ago.

Get a perspective - it is mostly the poor from India Pakistan who travel on this train, who carry their own stoves and utensils, and buy fresh food to cook all over the place. In addition, much of the additional baggage is overlooked for the obvious reasons. See a Hajj flight or a pilgrim train to understand better.

delhiwala/57 - It would be easy to make the Samjhauta security and checking at Delhi RS a fraction of the way the Delhi-Lahore or ex-Amritsar/Kashmir buses to Pakistan are checked. But my point is simple - this train was and is designed for smuggling. That - and the kind of baggage carried by passengers/angadiyas/others - just makes this sort of attack easier.

Sadna,

Arrey, why are you being needlessly combative ?

tahmed32: what?

further to #137: given that both hindu and muslim terrorists gain from this attack, it is obvious that those seeking to use this attack to point fingers at the other side are aiders and abettors of terrorists. In other words, the half-brained, cold-blooded bastards for whom human life takes the back seat to their stupid politics, the ones I refer to in #137. Examples of these are to be easily found on this board.

#138 does one have to be a muslim to be a terrorist, brilliant one? i suppose hindu terrorism is merely pakistani propaganda.

``It is following the procedures which are in place but not followed.``

Precisely, that has Nothing to do with the menace supported by Pakistan for a quarter century. You keep missing the primary cause of the existence of jihadis. That`s your choice. I disagree completely.

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I dont know if trains in Pakistan can be locked from outside! This is laughable. No train in any part of the world can be locked from outside. No engineer worth his/her degree can design such a train door.

Indian train bogies are no different. There is a common handle that can be operated from outside as well as inside. Only the insider can lock the door with a hatch. The stupid Indian Railway official had difficulty is clarifying this simple point.

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Re: # 107

Ranjit:

I agree with you that India has very little and more to gain from this blast and killing.

If this the dastardly act of a hindu terrorist / fundamentalist group, this should group be equally vigorously pursued and prosecuted. I am confident there is enough strength in Indian justice system to not let go such a group unpursued or punished. There is greater transparency and many groups who would want such hindu fundamentalist identified and isolated. A group like this, thru such act, would be seen to destroy India more than making any other statement. Who would have thought Gandhi will be murdered by a hindu fanatic? Even then the times and circumstance were different, as indeed hindu and sikhs indeed suffered, and this time. I, therefore, do see your logical arguments, but life is hardly logical for a simple person, let alone for a fundamentalist. .

If a muslim fanatic group did it, and if it is not hushed, then I believe it has given a reason for India and Pakistan to cooperate to clean such groups out of Pakistan and India. Now they are killing Pakistanis in India and not just in NWFP, FATA etc.

Aasif, Sadna, Zeemax, and Urstruly,
You people are disgusting. :(

Aasif/Sadna,

At the risk of sounding completely condescending - would you guys please start
breathing ?

Re: # 129
Simple, because I never expressed any desire to rejoice over the deaths of indians. You on the other hand have repeatedly expressed this desire (with some vague qualifier of the victims being elites or something). If I remember correctly somebody repeatedly was handing out rabies certificates to pakistanis on UP.

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#127
Stop lying. I never said after any terrorist incident in India that Aasif must be happy that Indians died.

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Re: # 125 sadna:
I am sorry to say that even though your acknowledgement may be sincere, the fact is you never acknowleged other pakistani chowkies expression of grief over similar events in india. You have called me worse names before and it doesn`t make an iota of difference.

#126 khusrala-sach:
monay... wadi Doongi gal kiti aey!

Why have India? Why have Pakistan? Why have Islam? Why have Hinjras? Why have Khusralsa?