The Role of Mystics, Artists and Scientists in Human Evolution

Just for the record, `art, mysticism & philosophy` were the core curriculum of all pre-secular societies.

Re: # 80

Dr. Sohail - Thanks for some details. I have some observations here:

a. An individual may be inclined toward the study and appreciation of all the subject areas under discussion in this article, but if his environment does not allow her/him to continue to grow or expand her or his horizons then there is a roadblock. And there is no guarantee that society will benefit from that individual or many like him or her.

b. An individual may grow up in an environment and have a very conducive set-up to expand his/her horizons in the subject of philosophy or art and may not use them at all. Yes, the society or that culture is open minded and provides the opportunity to have a utility for the subject areas, but the individuals also need to step up to the plate and carry the ball forward.

In the first case, chances are quite slim for anything remarkable to occur except for the individual to be a lone ranger. In the second scenario, there is hope.

I have read about Norway and a few other countries where the quality of life is phenomenal. But that quality of life has a lot of input from the people utilizing that infrastructure and thought process.

By the way, in my travels all across the US, as fate would have it, I missed visiting Kansas. So how chaltahai lands me in Kansas is just as accurate an observation as his BS about American ``morality``....

chaltahai writes <<< there are mor ehumans today than ever before. Learn the concept of percentages when drawing comparables. Lifespans in the world are ever increasing..even in poor countries. >>>

Fool, crude percentages cannot be used holding factors like technology and scientific advances constant, because they are not constant from days past, also since you have no idea of the percentages don`t use that bs argument. In areas within the developed world and in the least developed countries rates of death would be as high as in the old days. Finally using death as a percent for comparison masks the fact that each human life is valuable and more are dying today, like I said, given sheer numbers, than at any time in history. Finally, lifespan has NOT been increasing, that is the biological limit, life expectancy has been in average crude numbers but varies from place to place. Learn the definitions first before using nonsense in the form of arguments. Shit holes exist only in the mind and your mind is full of horse shit...

Re: # 79
dear zahraj....sorry for the misunderstanding. i am not sure either. my impression is that

those families and communities that promote creative freedom help people to develop what

i call their Natural Self...as compared to Conditioned Self...conditioned by age old traditions

that suffocates Natural Self. If art and myticism and philosophy are promoted by parents

and teachers who are good role models then i would hope that children grow up to better

human beings with not only self respect but also respect for others and in such

environments growing together would be considered better than growing alone. In my

world travels i found Scandinavian countries like Norway far more evolved than countries

like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan where people still had tribal mentality with less education

and least respect for human rights. I think I am on the same wavelength as you are. if you

and i were sociologists we could have done a longitudinal study and followed children of

different countries for twenty years and seen the results of different kinds of upbringing.

Thank you for your meaningful question. I am sorry if i could not give you a satisfactory

answer...sincerely sohail

Re: # 76

Dr. Sohail - You misunderstood my stance. I had a question not a comment. I asked if the societies where art, philosophy and mysticism were promoted were healthier than otherwise. I am not sure. Are you?

Masadi In quotes

``Facts for damn fool like yourself but not thinking individuals. Like I said, given sheer numbers of the population people are dying today in greater numbers than at any time in previous hisotry. Which ``humans`` are you talking about the ones in the rich nations of course, who live two lifetimes compared to the miserable ``one`` being lived by people in the Least Developed Countries. And even among the rich nations, ones that live in poverty, and there are tens of million in the US, die at three times the rate of the rich, numbers that are easily masked by the crude estimates of life expectancy you are throwing out as ``fact``. Regarding technology, it has not resulted in human betterment simply because invention does not entail proper use especially when the ruling higher immorality develops it for military use first, which is a driver of all innovation, with the end of destroying more with greater effectiveness. Think about these things UPK, before predicting the temporal relationship between my ideas and my getting ``fired`` from my job...``

Ullu kay paThay, there are mor ehumans today than ever before. Learn the concept of percentages when drawing comparables. Lifespans in the world are ever increasing..even in poor countries. this is due to innovatins that came under the American global leadership. Higher immorality? what are you talking about? Places like Bell Labs, JPL etc indeed work on a lot of military applications including fibre optics, camouflage and plastics for armor, televesion, the light bulb and the internet. The latter through which you spew your idiocies. CDC provides grants to innumerable biotechs, including one that I am investor in which is developing vaccines for various diseases from natural products.

Going back to the good doctor`s thesis, look at the rennaisance..if it wasn`t for the patrons, , the rich families in Italy, we wouldn;t have had the sistine chapel or seeing the wonders of Da Vinci or Michaelangelo. They catered to the status quo..the status quo which started in the 15th century which you deride has always been there and always will be. Unfortunately for you, there is no going back to the 7th century and anachronistic thinking.

Your ideas are what got you kicked out of a shit hole like Kansas only to be kicked out again to another shit hole.

Re: # 75
dear kamath...i like your sense of humour. i like working in canada where there is

socialized medicine and every one has a health card and do not have to pay for treatment

rather than america where more than 30 million people (nearly population of canada) has

no health insurance. if americans spent money they spend on war to help their poor and

sick citizens it might be a better use of money.

my clinic is called Creative Psychotherapy Clinic...so that I can do psychotherapy and

creative work together...smiles...sohail

Re: # 70
dear zahraj....thank you for your insightful comments....i agree with your idea that if

children were taught science, psychology, philosophy to develop their rational and logical

thinking they might be able to question blind faith of their religious tradition.

i read one study (cannot remember the details) in which it was shown that children in grade

one had 85% creative thinking but by the time they reached grade 10 it was only 10%. it is

in many schools...do you remember pink floyd song from their album THE WALL that was

banned in america for a while

we need no education

we need no thought control

teachers leave the kids alone

sincerely sohail

Re: # 69
Dear Tehsinabbasi:

Don`t take some Khalid`s dates too seriously!

He wrote this post perhaps when one of his patients simply did not turn up for the appointment. This happens all the time in Canada (-where Medical services are mostly free! ) and paperwork is so boring and lengthy, I am told. So he must have jotted down and said ``..whynot relax a little bit by writing a quickie post!!...``

Kamath

Masadi, if you have a SoH, you find this funny, and maybe even recognise a bit of yourself in here......

Masadi mian, why? Why? Why?

Everytime I rad you, I am reminded of




and the irate preacher who is angry with everyone but himself...maybe not he is angry at his own apparent impotency to change the world in his image

#9 Chaltahai writes <<< Humans being live longer and healthier now than ever before in the history of the world. Scientific advancement in the American century has been unparalleled in human history. these are facts >>>

Facts for damn fool like yourself but not thinking individuals. Like I said, given sheer numbers of the population people are dying today in greater numbers than at any time in previous hisotry. Which ``humans`` are you talking about the ones in the rich nations of course, who live two lifetimes compared to the miserable ``one`` being lived by people in the Least Developed Countries. And even among the rich nations, ones that live in poverty, and there are tens of million in the US, die at three times the rate of the rich, numbers that are easily masked by the crude estimates of life expectancy you are throwing out as ``fact``. Regarding technology, it has not resulted in human betterment simply because invention does not entail proper use especially when the ruling higher immorality develops it for military use first, which is a driver of all innovation, with the end of destroying more with greater effectiveness. Think about these things UPK, before predicting the temporal relationship between my ideas and my getting ``fired`` from my job...

Re: # 61

Khalid,

you are trying to be a politician here. You say ``I do not want to.....`` and yet you do!

e.g the four categories you created. And you desperately want to put people into a category despite saying vehemently that you do not want to impose your views on any body.

Its the classic case of the participant becoming an observer.....does not work.....

I must say one though - iin an earlier interact I said ``atheist`` in reality I am an atheist not in the sense of your mono-beliefs (where you are either this or that or an agnostic or whatever). And hence donot and cannot fall into any one of your four categories, maybe I am wrong? The definitions were not clear cut.

[“ To give a fair chance to potential creativity is a matter of life and death of any society. This is important because the outstanding creative ability of a small percentage of the population is mankind’s ultimate capital asset.” ]

Dr. Sohail - Thank you for sharing a nice and apt quote!

I like the overall concept of your article.

[It appears as though mystics and artists challenged religious traditions from inside while philosophers and scientists attacked them from outside. While mystics and artists helped human beings to develop their Right Brains, scientists and philosophers stimulated the growth and evolution of the Left Brain.]

Interesting phenomena!

[When we study human history, we realize that human beings have been evolving over the centuries. In every generation there was a majority that blindly followed traditional beliefs and practices. Such traditions gave birth to religions whose leaders gained power in their communities. They ruled the masses by directing their personal and social lives. Some of those leaders became intoxicated with power and began misguiding their communities socially, economically and politically. As those religions and traditions became more institutionalized, the abuse of power increased. ]

Can we resolve the abuse of power issue by making philosophy, art and mysticism as mandatory subjects in countries where this abuse is rampant? I will be interested to read your take. Has there been any study conducted on such phenomenon?

Z

“In the last few centuries, human beings have crossed another milestone in evolution through the disciplines of Science and Philosophy…………..Karl Marx……….twentieth century writings of….philosophers like Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, Sigmund Freud”

My friend how can you say that? You just sold my gurus short. What about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle and how about Confucius? These guys are as old as any of the other religions. They are contemporaries of Buddha, Zoroaster, and Moses and a lot older then good old Jesus and Mohammad. They represent the humanist, secularist tradition which is as rich and almost as old as the famous myth mongers. It was Alfred C. Whitehead who said something to the effect that, all Western philosophy is nothing more then a series of footnotes to the writings of Plato. This whole western civilization whose marvels we admire every day, its humanism, its values, its virtues are all based upon that luminary and his disciple Aristotle. It is sad that you have not afforded them any role in your evolution story.