The Role of Mystics, Artists and Scientists in Human Evolution

War is good for Economy >good for happiness>properity>progress>modernity....

Look at USA....

pathaab #7 very interesting quotes.

Re: # 6
dear parthaab....you promised absolute silence and then quoted a few quotes....quotes are

wonderful but J krishnamurti never quoted anybody...he used to say quran is

mohammad`s truth not mine....thanks for sharing though...smiles...sohail

Re: # 9: UKP, it is called evolution of the mind and body and soul. You keep harping about these evil systemic ``institutions``..these are scientific adn democratic institutions of change. They evolve and challenge status quo by producung new ideas and products to change how we live...for the better. Whereas you challenge the status quo with regressive ideas on economic and social paradigms that are devoid of any reality based application and are anachronistic in implementation.

There is no novel thought in simply being a contrarian. It take a special knucklehead to utter the same drivel ad nauseum without ever trying to see if maybe the fault lies within themselves. You seem to be one of these cases. Humans being live longer and healthier now than ever before in the history of the world. Scientific advancement in the American century has been unparalleled in human history. these are facts..

and for god`s sake (pun intended) how long do you think it would take for you to get fired from your current position. I give it 6 months

Dr sb,

That was a nice tribute to liberal people throughout history. It is indeed these individuals who are selflessly motivated by the beauties of their dreams who are slowly but surely creating pathways to better ways of living and understanding. For such people Ghalib has said:

Hoon nishaat-e-germi-e-tasawwur se naghma-sanj
Mein andaleep-e-gulshan-e-naa aafreeda hoon,

The gulshan may not be afreeda in their lives but they live it inside their dreams and it is their `germi-e-nishaat-e-tasawwur` which brings their dreams to reality.

On a side note, the word `philosopher` is missing from the title of this essay who were one of the biggest anchors of liberal thought. Or is it that your concept of `scientists` includes them?

yeh masayale tussauwuf yeh beyaN sohail saheb -- enjoyed it as usual - u r a progressive with a kinder gentler heart -- and a razor sharp mind.

sohail sahib,

.......... i started reading your article with the best intentions but i couldn`t get past the first sentence :``When we study human history, we realize that human beings have been evolving over the centuries`` .............. based on the neanderthal specimens i have seen on chowk - creatures like zeemax and masadi - i am convinced that evolution is a myth and since your article starts with a fib, everything else that follows must be a lie ............ sorry

``Be ye lamps unto yourselves, be a refuge to yourselves. Hold fast to
Truth as a lamp; hold fast to the Truth as a refuge. Look not for a refuge in anyone beside yourselves. And those, who shall be a lamp unto themselves, shall betake themselves to no external refuge, but holding fast to the Truth as their lamp, and holding fast to the Truth as their refuge, they shall reach the topmost height.`` (The Buddha)

But the world is not hurrying to become Buddhist. Power, passion, and pelf and the need for control drive most of us most of the time, not the pursuit of absolute truth.

So praying will always be far more common and will take up more of our time than will questioning. Man`s enchantment with blind faith and religion could actually grow rather than diminish.

Also, those who care for their personal safety may want to avoid shouting analhaq in a public square even today.

Re: # 24 Kaalchakra, that is the duality of the human condition.

On one hand,

we are driven by a primeval instinct of self-preservation, and hence demand that luck (or GOD) be on our side

on the other hand

realise the futility of it all and also recognise the age old saying of Buddha, and ofcourse Aham brahmasmi (what you quoted is a very nice of saying this - less aphoristic which makes its more accessible).

But this is all fine and dandy. However, given that we are 8 Billion (and growing at a frightening rate) people on earth, and earth is a finite resource we are in deep shit - since what we can get/have etc is diminishing everyday - hence the power, need for control etc (which you derogaratively call PELF). IF the resources outnumbered human souls on earth we could live in good old la-la land philosophising, or if we controlled the resources ala west. Try giving your message to the villagers in Africa - here is a simple equation


Total power comsumed to make a laptop (this includes R&D effort, raw-material extraction, manufature production etc) >>>>>>>> power needs of a village in Africa or India for some 10 years (fully electrified with a few mod-cons).

It is this discrepancy which drives (to quote you) Power, passion, and pelf and the need for control drive most of us most of the time, not the pursuit of absolute truth.

A vicious circle? or are you trying to hammer a sqaure peg in an ever decreasing round hole? For the fore seeable future it appears to be never the twain shall meet.

iron_mask

Here`s a part that first came to mind but was then dropped

>>>> (As life gets tougher) man`s enchantment with blind faith and religion could actually grow rather than diminish. <<<<

For good reason. Blind faith and religion can confer large competitive and survival advantages. The more hostile the conditions, the greater the advantage.

Re: # 26 agreed.

Maybe we could also add that he who has the power designs his faith!

Or may be not?

iron_mask

Power and faith seem to be basically inseparable (two sides of the same coin etc.), and both have joint primacy over truth.

Now faith may be more or less open to letting truth in, and the more open faith is, the less truth will suffer in the its presence, the less inner violence faith will require to maintain homeostasis (sp?).

(The idea that we will all peacefully march toward liberalism and science and truth-seeking is a noble one, although it is somewhat contrary to both reason and reality)

Re: # 28
Kaalchakra, there is a dividing line somewhere.

Power is of two kinds: one over yourself and the other is over others.

If you have power over yourself (as in the Buddha quote of yours below), you tend to do more good for humanity as a whole. Where as if you have power over others you end up in a feudal situation, the population is like scavengers feeding of the carrion from your table.

If you have power over yourself - you command faith not in you but your thoughts.
If you have power over others you demand faith in yourself and not necessarily your thoughts.

Most of us tend to exist in a twilight zone between these two (the peg and hole syndrome) and hence live in a perpetual schizophrenic(sp?) state. Some of us can move to either end with (and its just a hand full), and these people are the enlightened ones (a buddha) or the powerfull dictators ala ceasars.

The struggle will always be between these two extreme poles. What we call moderation, is a calll to recognise these two extremes and and find a way of living amecably(sp?) with these two conditions (since many of us will not have the testicular fortitude to march towards either of the two ends). If the resources available to man kind was very much more than the total number of human beings, I can take a guess which way mankind will go!

Re: # 28 contd #28,

Perhaps you could expand your statement ``both have joint primacy over truth. `` further.

Power and faith come in two forms each, at the least as I said below. If it is of one kind thenn I agree with you. If it is of the other kind - there is a small disagreement. One truth is more of a meta-physical kind, where as the other truth is more of the here and now (bread and butter kind of) issue.

And if I am not mistaken (I am not at all well versed here nor that knowledagble) wasn`t this the issue the Samkhya School tackled - I am alluding to Patanjali`s yoga Sutras here. (I heard of these but never hadthe time to go through them or understand them in great detail).

Agreed. The distinction you make reminds one of the difference between social power and personalized power. And that is an important/ consequential distinguishing feature . . .

kaalchakra/ironmask: interesting discussion.

on the quote ``Power, passion, and pelf and the need for control drive most of us most of the time, not the pursuit of absolute truth. ``

i think the above represents two paths, which individually are counterproductive to human progress, but taken together are the essence of human progress.