Pakistan Shinning I - Propoganda or Reality

Re: # 70

``He, however, made it clear that he was not mistreated at any stage of the extended sessions. He was also offered lunch. He told his friends and acquaintances...``

The Justice is definitely a true minimalist gentleman -- the `non-functional` Justice was detained against his will for 5 hours and put in a pressure cooker and he says he was NOT `mistreated` and was even offered lunch by that Dys-functional Disoriented Demented Dictator -- who is hell bent on Destroying every civilian institution of his beautiful country -- that gave him as a refugee -- not only `lunch` and shelter -- but a Khaki uniform to strut like peacock and then hijack his own country.

And look what became of him -- the man turned to be a habitual hijacker of government and its institutions -- a perennial divider, a unapologetic cannibalizer and a shameless dismantler of everything independent and civilian -- in his gracious country.

The selfish, self-centered, self-promoter man is indeed a terribly stupid tree termite -- eating though the very branch that allowed him to sit and `govern` the country.

What a thankless bitch.

Re: # 59
Mr.Ustruely...... Do you like a high powered lawyer in suit and boot throwing big brick to kill police?
These criminial lawyer should be punished for hard sentence for few years and all property taken out. This worst example if you want democracy. This is war.
I have said before as Mr. Romair said truthfully, we are useless people but if we have proper guidence we are marvelous people better than iNdians , afghans and Iranians, only chinese are better of all.
Only solution is appoint american reired judges as Supreme court members and give our constitution and let them deliver important decisions. If american are unpopular the put UNO type Judges. What we need is fine and benign colonial rule through UNO. Now people laugh at me and call mad man but that is only thing work. Recolonisation under uno is need of hour. Good day

turns out this paki judge had more balls than the whole top brass of the paki army..contrast this with how mushy folded like a cheap walmart chair when dick came-a-calling..

CJ proves hard nut to crack


By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: Long-drawn-out persuasion by the top brass of Pakistan`s elite intelligence agencies and high-ranking officials failed to convince a resolute chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to step down before a presidential reference was filed against him.

He stood like a rock, ready to face the challenge, in the hours-long persuasive sessions. A family source close to the “non-functional” chief justice quoted Justice Chaudhry as saying that during the critical Friday meeting with the president, he was given two options by General Pervez Musharraf — resign or face the reference.

``I opted not to succumb,`` the source quoted him as telling the tale of his five-hour stay in the Army House on Friday. After the suspended chief justice told the president that he would never step down, the source revealed that almost 18 officials, including the top brass of the intelligence agencies, kept on swaying him, one after the other, to avail the first option, but he chose the hard one.

He, however, made it clear that he was not mistreated at any stage of the extended sessions. He was also offered lunch. He told his friends and acquaintances, who were able to meet him before the present security cordon around his official residence was clamped by the government, that he had immediately made up his mind that he would not bow out.

The source, who is still in contact with the chief justice and his family because of a not yet tracked communication means, said Justice Chaudhry had also told his sympathisers that the ``charge sheet`` read by the president was the replica of the much-condemned open letter of a Supreme Court lawyer, who, it is generally believed, was written as a precursor to the reference.

After an almost five-hour stay in the Army House and following his consistent refusal to quit, he was allowed to go. One obvious change he immediately noticed as soon as he came to board his staff car was the missing of the chief justice’s flag from his official limousine. Acting Chief Justice Javed Iqbal took the oath of his office at a time when the chief justice was in the Army House.

When Justice Chaudhry came back, the world had changed for him altogether. Although the government claims that the suspended chief justice is not under house arrest, within hours of his return from the Army House, the top judge`s official residence was cordoned off, the telephone lines were disconnected and even the available mobile phones were taken away. The television cable was working till Saturday morning, but it was also cut off later.

The suspended chief justice was also not provided with newspapers although he was getting the crux of the media coverage on his issue through a lone communication mean that is still breathing. Except those allowed to meet him on Sunday as has happened in selected cases, no one can get in or out.

“It`s a pity that the man who spent all his life in delivering justice to people is now himself in need of justice,`` the source said, adding that the suspended chief justice is treated in a manner as if he were involved in some major corruption case. ``But Justice Iftikhar`s track record speaks of his financial integrity,`` the source said, adding that ``Pakistan is not the property of a few in power; this is our country.``

The source said the only hope left is the media that should raise its voice for justice and it is certain that the people of conscience will come forward and do their maximum to stop this injustice.

anil #66: ``This really sums up why democracy is unable to establish itself. The rest in this scenario are redundant. But why is it so? Across the border, all would have rushed to protect institutions, than the military intervention. And military would not intervene there either. The both scenarios have been played out.``

....this is the million dollar question......and here is my answer.....we, pakistanis, are a defeated nation.....we don`t have balls......we lack courage......we talk a lot, but no one does anything........we are opportunists.......we follow authority......we are a nation of hamidms and urstrulys, i.e. we sit at a distance, ensuring our personal convenience, and blow hot air, while never having the courage and conviction to do anything ourselves......wasting our time fighting each other over whether there is a god or not........

.......actually the above is a punjabi trait.....and punjab is 2/3rd of pakistan.....hostorically, punjab is the most conquered area in the world......from the time of alexander till 1947, the only punjabi to rule punjab is ranjit singh!.....other than that punjabis have never had the courage to rise up against anyone......they were the most loyal soldiers to the british......siding with them on everything......even in 1947, punjabis were the one of the last groups to accept pakistan......they wanted to remain loyal to the brits......

.......it is now a statistically proven joke that the punjabi judges always rule in favor of the military, while the non-punjabi judges stand up to the system.......the current cj, though born in punjab, is from baluchistan......hence he is standing up..........

.....having said that, i am totally amazed at the lack of courage displayed by such powerful people like judges and political leaders.....they are so scared of generals, it is unbelievable........

just to put everything in perspective............around fifteen years ago, i, as a lowly captain, was sitting in office of one such lt. gen.......the guy ran a whole arm of pakistan`s military!....the kind of guy, in front of whom politicians sh//t in their pants (as do judges, apparently).....i had, by that time, told everyone, the equivalent of my unit commander to the brigade commander to go to hell......this lt. gen. level person had complete authority over me.....he could fire me, jail me, do anything.....i refused to listen to him either, as he was supporting my brigade level boss, who had broken every law in the book.....this lt. gen. put me under house arrest for one year!........for one year, i couldn`t leave my camp and the surroundings of my room......then he posted me to every boondock remote corner of pakistan......i refused to go......eventually he kicked me out of the miltiary, and created further problems for me as a civilian......

to make a long story short:.......this lt. gen. is now a retired bum, as is my unit commander and brigade commander, and i am making more money than the coas..........as a good friend once told me: if you think you are correct, then don`t worry about the consequences.........

this is why it saddens me to see so many super-powerful people, like supreme court judges act so docile and scared of any figure in authority.......they certainly have a hell of a lot of power than i had as a lowly captain.......i don`t know why they are so intimidated by the generals.....as are the politicians......perhaps because they have far too many skeletons in their own respective closets........while i had none......after all, i belive it is true that the current supreme court cj did have his son transferred as a police officer against the law, and his son (allegedly) does drive a bmw.......can`t do that on a police officer`s low salary.........

in any case, again and again, the future of pakistan comes before the judiciary and again and again they disappoint........all these guys have to do is what i did fifteen years ago.....believe me, all these generals are paper tigers......they are classroom bullies.......if you stand up to them, they will crumble......i know them very well........

Re: # 65

Zeemax I am grandson of the so called `mohajr` immigrants but I am a Pakistani first and last, consider myself nothing else and regard Pakistan as my homeland.

However, like the religious minorities who give Islam a bad name, there always will be a mohajir minority who will be the black sheep of the community. For some so-called Mohajirs its hard to settle in this country if you believe they use to chant `hamein manzil nahin rahnuma chahiyay`. May be they should do what their belover leader has done: MIGRATE to another country. `Rahnuma ko to manzil mil gaye`.

Surprisingly, that upholder of justice and rights of the minorities who is never short of giving philosophical telephonic and press speeches on every occassion from London is conspicuous by his silence today. Wonder what he is thinking?

...the solution to this is quite simple......the members of the court who are hearing the chief justice`s case, simply have to write the legal equivalent of the following words: we don`t think the cj did anything wrong, and we order that he be given his post back......

......i am always surprised why the judiciary never has the balls to make such simple statements.......what will happen to them......at most martial law will be initiated again, and the judges will be forced to resign.......big deal....most of them are close to retirement, anyways.........and how in the world can musharraf fire a whole supreme court.........he can only divide it......he cannot fire all of them........

.......if the cj is reinstated by his, ``brother`` judges (with brothers like these, who needs enemies), then the country will be truly at a decision point......it reached such a decision point when nawaz sharif tried to fire sajjad ali shah.......

.....the supreme court will hear a case against musharraf getting re-elected by the same assembly again......they will more than likely rule against it.......after which musharraf`s career will be over.........there is no way he will be able to get a new assembly to elect him president..........and if he isn`t president, then he will be fired as coas.......may even be court martialled......at which point, he may even end up in jail........

.......to avoid this, musharraf has to fire the cj and coerce the other judges to rule against their own boss and to rule in favor of musharraf`s re-election........if they don`t do both, then musharraf will have to declare martial law, if he wants to save himself.......however, another martial law will probably just be too much........

.......interesting times.......its musharraf vs. the judiciary.......if you ask me, the judiciary holds all the cards....however, this is the same judiciary, which voted musharraf into power to begin with......including the chief justice himself!........all the judges who stood up against musharraf were fired........

......they judiciary has the game in their hand......however do they have the balls?.......

Re: # 57

Romair:

Superub scenarios presentation. Here is what I would say, you may not agree.

``Scenario 1: (Politicians)

- Musharraf carries out a coup and kicks out Nawaz Sharif. The other political parties don`t protest. Infact they line up with the military, hoping to get into power ``

This really sums up why democracy is unable to establish itself. The rest in this scenario are redundant. But why is it so? Across the border, all would have rushed to protect institutions, than the military intervention. And military would not intervene there either. The both scenarios have been played out.

``Scenario 2:

- Nawaz Sharif plans to kick out the sitting CJ
- The rest of the justices gang up on their own CJ and fire him! ``

This is indeed democracy. Elected government ``plans`` to kick out. There are precendences for these in most democracies in early stages, including the U.S. The system should be able to tolerate to survive.

``Scnario 3:

- Musharraf suspends a sitting CJ
- The CJ is, ironically the same person who had approved Musharraf`s coup earlier
- The remaining Justices don`t complain. One of them, conveniently accepts the post of CJ
- The agree to hold a commission against the sitting CJ
- Will the Supreme Court Judges, for the nth time, fire their own Chief Justice ``

The most worrisome is suspending a sitting CJ. This subverts judiciary and institutions. No one in the land must be above the law. No one, including the President. Supreme Court Justices, and the council are way below the pecking order. Can you imagine, Indian army chief, or the U.S. army chief sitting. President Bush doing it, even Indira Gandhi could not do it, she had to let the Supreme Court Chief Justice retire as the natural course.

``Scenario 4:

- Nawaz Sharif tries to break the military high command ``

This is democracy too. He ``tries`` to break the military high command. Civilian authority should be the boss.

`` He fires the COAS (Musharraf), while he is in a plane ``

In the U.S. the president, and in India, the president upon the recommendation of the PM can remove all, or any member of the command. Civilian authority is the boss.

`` He picks out his own favorite Lt. Gen. and appoints him as the COAS, against all traditions of the military, i.e. this Lt. Gen is not inline to be the next COAS etc.
- What do the remaining Lt. Gens. do? Do they accept the firing of their own boss? Do they divide up and support the new COAS? Or do they remain loyal to their profession and organization and resign, thereby refusing the new COAS as their boss.
- The remaining Lt. Gen. refuse to accept the new COAS. They remain loyal to their previous COAS. They do not tolerate irregular interference in their organization
- And by the way, instead of resigning to show their disapproval, they actually take over the whole country and lock up the Prime Minster!

The Lt. Gen would have been court martialed for refusing the order, and probably the entire command be fired and tried for subversive activity. That to me is when democratically elected bodies, however corrupt, are functioning and are in command. Nothing matures through dramatic aand sudden changes.

``.....The fate of the judiciary is actually in its own hands.........all the judges have to do is to rule against Musharraf and reinstate their CJ........the law is on their side......the public opinion is totally on their side........they have the authority......... ``

If nothing else just to test the system, judiciary should do it and may put some stipulations to watch and reopen if necessary.

``......if they however do not show loyalty to their own CJ and their profession, then I am afraid, they have no one to blame but themselves for being rolled over by the Army``

This is simplistic, the root cause is elsewhere due to the absence of mature democratic institutions, however corrput they may be.

``.......the army generals always stand by their boss, regardless of whether they like him or hate him (even if the law is not on their side).........``

Army is a command, communicate and control organization. If they are doing so withing the framework of discipline then they are doing their duty. The Lt. Gen. refusing to take over COAS did not put sanctity of the institutions he reports ahead of his personal favorites.

``...will the judges of the supreme court have enough balls to do the same?``

Supreme court is not a command, communicate and control organization. It defines new laws, reviews old laws and changes them, if necessary. This evolutionary common law approach is essential. The supreme court works in the adversarial situation, which assumes there are atleast two opinions. So the question is not of the balls.

The question can Supreme Court set a precedence and make a new law? Supreme Courts only guide is the constitutions, not personal friends. Only the legislature, if they do not like the law Supreme Court came up can change it. Executive cannot, unless emergency powers vested in the Executive can be exercised for a limited period.

This act of Musharaff must be condemned unconditionally. Unless, Pakistan is his chacha ji ka ghar.

#63 by hasanmahmood

Mohajirs, if they still think they`re Mohajirs after sixty years, should be either deported back to their beloved hindooland or thrown into the sea.

This country belongs to Pakistanis. And if this turns out to be for the sons of the soil, so be it.

And bring out your weapons. Match the firepower you mutarwaas.

Re: # 63

Who is going to get rid of the corruption in Musharraf`s cabinet where we have the Prime Minister who made billions in stock market and was about to make a similar killing in the failed privatization bid, Wasi Zafar the law minister who and his son are known for slapping common citizens, Humayun Akhtar (minister of industries) who made millions through his sugar mills when the country was going through sugar crises, Ishratul Ibad (convicted Murderer) as governor of sind and the list goes on. Their crimes are much more than the alleged crimes of Chief justice who benefited himself only without hurting the common man.

He was about to decide on the issue of re-election of illegal president again from the same assembly. He was asking about the missing persons. He was taking the police to task.

Do you honestly believe that any judge will ever raise a voice against the government. If the fate of the case is as desired by Musharraf, then there will be no way to stop us reaching absolute corruption.

Musharraf expected him to resign but the CJ said that he can defend the allegations so he was forcefully made dysfunctional.

Indians too have corruption and lot of it.But I am sure they have a democratic way of sorting it out and not have some absolute monarch sitting to rid the country of corruption. Despite so many television channels, we are at lowest levels of freedom of press and highest level of corruption. I am sure you can find the reports easily by Googling.

And if you want to go back to India, be our guest. I am sure Indians will gladly take a dictator loving monarchy promoting person.

laugh out loud. During Nawaz and Benazir we used to complain that nobody does anything against corruption and injustice. Now we are complaining that President is doing something against it. What a country and what people. At least I was not ashamed before but looking at the mental age of the people here I can proudly say that today I am ashamed to be born a Pakistani and associated with these geniuses. Indians, please save me from these idiots. If someone actually fires someone for corruption these people still complain. I guess they want the democracy of Nawaz and Bibi where you were scared to go to Pakistan from US because they used to tear up your documents on the airport because you were a mohajir, or the great years where Zardari was looting their wealths. but I guess Pakistanis are used to bend down and take it. Does anyone know the true meaning of democracy or you guys just shout it at the top of your lungs to sound cool in front of goras and ABCDs.....

#57 by bulleya

You are right. It is now or never. If the judges on the Supreme Judicial Council tak a stand now, they will save the Judiciary. If they do not, there will be Martial-Law in whatever shape or form it makes itself out to be.

I remember a quote by a famous Judge (or something to this effect). ``Let Justice be done if the Heavens will fall; and fall they will not``.

Rgds.

#60 by Urstruly

Urstruly ... these pictures prove that this nation is not dead. Not yet.

That`s why I have lasting faith in Pakistan. It is a vibrant nation. I had said before that if anyone was to rise up, it would be the Bar Associations, and they did. though I did wonder who was going to move them? As it has turned out, they didn`t need anyone else to move them.

Ye dagh dagh ujala, ye shab-gazida sahar,
Vo intizar tha jis-ka, ye vo sahar to nahin,
Ye vo sahar to nahin jis-ki arzu lekar
chale the yar ke mil-ja egi kahin na kahin
Falak ke dasht men taron ki akhiri manzil,
kahin to hoga shab-e sust mauj ka sahil,
Kahin to jake rukega safina-e-gham-e-dil......

faiz ahmad faiz