Is this Pakistan’s Democratic Revolution?
Aparna Pande March 20, 2007
#186 Posted by MantoLives on March 26, 2007 7:35:18 am
Harish mian,
You are trying really hard... however, being a follower of an honest man like Jinnah instead of a crook like Gandhi I have to attend to my work before getting into a pissing match with some one like you... which is entirely worthless.
Because you can`t defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist terrorist bigot Gandhi you are back to your lie about Jinnah even though you were proved to be a liar here by your own buddy VRV (who is now posting under Folio):
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007141&channel=university%20ave
Apparently Jinnah`s reaction time to condemning his own party (even though his party was later proved to be not involved) was much quicker than gandhi`s calling off the movement. Amazingly... it was the Hindus butchering Muslims... now unless you think Jinnah could call off the Congress Party goons who were being brought into Calcutta by the truckloads, I don`t know how you can claim what you are claiming.
Because admittedly you don`t have much of those English comprehension skills to write home about, it makes perfect sense that you don`t get the fact that if 16th August 1946 as a day of strike is one day... and that the violence that occured occurred because the Congress goons planned armed strikes - in cahoots with the Calcutta underworld... Where as Gandhi then? Certainly not giving any calls to his followers to stop the violence... instead he was encouraging them according to several of his more learned biographers...
Because Indians have repeated a lie so many times... Direct Action Day has some how been forced on Jinnah (no historian who has impartially studie the incident has ever blamed Jinnah btw)... but it was Gandhi`s culpability is a matter of historical record.
You are trying really hard... however, being a follower of an honest man like Jinnah instead of a crook like Gandhi I have to attend to my work before getting into a pissing match with some one like you... which is entirely worthless.
Because you can`t defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist terrorist bigot Gandhi you are back to your lie about Jinnah even though you were proved to be a liar here by your own buddy VRV (who is now posting under Folio):
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007141&channel=university%20ave
Apparently Jinnah`s reaction time to condemning his own party (even though his party was later proved to be not involved) was much quicker than gandhi`s calling off the movement. Amazingly... it was the Hindus butchering Muslims... now unless you think Jinnah could call off the Congress Party goons who were being brought into Calcutta by the truckloads, I don`t know how you can claim what you are claiming.
Because admittedly you don`t have much of those English comprehension skills to write home about, it makes perfect sense that you don`t get the fact that if 16th August 1946 as a day of strike is one day... and that the violence that occured occurred because the Congress goons planned armed strikes - in cahoots with the Calcutta underworld... Where as Gandhi then? Certainly not giving any calls to his followers to stop the violence... instead he was encouraging them according to several of his more learned biographers...
Because Indians have repeated a lie so many times... Direct Action Day has some how been forced on Jinnah (no historian who has impartially studie the incident has ever blamed Jinnah btw)... but it was Gandhi`s culpability is a matter of historical record.
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#185 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2007 7:31:00 am
PS to 183:
Also note that in addition to accepting full responsibility for the incident, Gandhi issued a call asking rioters to immediately stop violence and went into a fast unto death, while Jinnah emerged out his rathole after the violence had subsided and condemned ``the loss of life on both sides``, carefully avoiding taking responsibility because it was his call to Direct Action that had started the cycle of violence in the first place.
Also note that in addition to accepting full responsibility for the incident, Gandhi issued a call asking rioters to immediately stop violence and went into a fast unto death, while Jinnah emerged out his rathole after the violence had subsided and condemned ``the loss of life on both sides``, carefully avoiding taking responsibility because it was his call to Direct Action that had started the cycle of violence in the first place.
#184 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2007 7:23:19 am
#182 by Yasser
Aww...so Yasser mian, you`re back, baited by a comment on your Houdini-like vanishing acts. You didn`t answer my comment about how you disappear when it gets a bit hot here, choosing to return like a two-bit burglar when no one is around. Instead, you launch into your familiar mode: abuse. I think it is rather revealing and self-explanatory as to why.
Aww...so Yasser mian, you`re back, baited by a comment on your Houdini-like vanishing acts. You didn`t answer my comment about how you disappear when it gets a bit hot here, choosing to return like a two-bit burglar when no one is around. Instead, you launch into your familiar mode: abuse. I think it is rather revealing and self-explanatory as to why.
#183 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2007 7:19:25 am
Folks
I think the debate as to who was a greater human being between Gandhi and Jinnah is long settled. When the Chauri Chaura incident took place, Gandhi called off his non-cooperation movement immediately, accepted full responsibility for the violence and asked the judge to award him the harshest possible punishment. In contrast, when violence was raging in response to Jinnah`s call to the Direct Action, thousands were being butchered but Jinnah chose to go into hiding, sleeping on the floors anticipating arrest (this interesting tidbit is from his own press).
This one incident shows how much respect the men had for human lives.
I think the debate as to who was a greater human being between Gandhi and Jinnah is long settled. When the Chauri Chaura incident took place, Gandhi called off his non-cooperation movement immediately, accepted full responsibility for the violence and asked the judge to award him the harshest possible punishment. In contrast, when violence was raging in response to Jinnah`s call to the Direct Action, thousands were being butchered but Jinnah chose to go into hiding, sleeping on the floors anticipating arrest (this interesting tidbit is from his own press).
This one incident shows how much respect the men had for human lives.
#182 Posted by MantoLives on March 26, 2007 7:10:36 am
Dear Harish mian,
If I had a penny for every time you`ve claimed that only to fall flat on your face, further flattening it ... I`d be a rich man... as you are someone who is metaphorically a flat-faced-fool... well the fool part is not metaphorical but quite literal.
Salim mian,
You wrote:
``Manto Bhai,
Being the most despised person on Chowk, it is not important whether I am right or wrong. What`s important is that the injustices against the ``stranded`` yet loyal and brave Pakistanis in BD be corrected. Also, the pernicious provincialism, hegemony, and discrimination must be recognized and eradicated. Of course, you and I agree on the secular, liberal, peaceful, democratic, and just social and political environment needed for Pakistan.
Thank you, my friend, for recognizing the problem. The hopes and dreams of sincere Pakistanis are with you. Too bad, the overwhelming majority of Punjabi Pakistanis, especially on Chowk (e.g. Tahmed32, Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Khamkhwa, Zeemax, and many others) don`t share your objectivity. ``
Bhai, the reason why you are despised has nothing to do with your points of view... many of which I agree with while others I think you are outrageously wrong on... but those are your views and you are entitled to them.
Your point of view about Punjabi domination is a valid one... even if your way of expressing it is characteristic of someone Aamir Liaqat Hussain... the fact that Punjab- owing to its status as a ``martial country`` under the British empire was the feudal heartland really meant the end of Pakistan after the Mohajirs were sidelined.
If I had a penny for every time you`ve claimed that only to fall flat on your face, further flattening it ... I`d be a rich man... as you are someone who is metaphorically a flat-faced-fool... well the fool part is not metaphorical but quite literal.
Salim mian,
You wrote:
``Manto Bhai,
Being the most despised person on Chowk, it is not important whether I am right or wrong. What`s important is that the injustices against the ``stranded`` yet loyal and brave Pakistanis in BD be corrected. Also, the pernicious provincialism, hegemony, and discrimination must be recognized and eradicated. Of course, you and I agree on the secular, liberal, peaceful, democratic, and just social and political environment needed for Pakistan.
Thank you, my friend, for recognizing the problem. The hopes and dreams of sincere Pakistanis are with you. Too bad, the overwhelming majority of Punjabi Pakistanis, especially on Chowk (e.g. Tahmed32, Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Khamkhwa, Zeemax, and many others) don`t share your objectivity. ``
Bhai, the reason why you are despised has nothing to do with your points of view... many of which I agree with while others I think you are outrageously wrong on... but those are your views and you are entitled to them.
Your point of view about Punjabi domination is a valid one... even if your way of expressing it is characteristic of someone Aamir Liaqat Hussain... the fact that Punjab- owing to its status as a ``martial country`` under the British empire was the feudal heartland really meant the end of Pakistan after the Mohajirs were sidelined.
#181 Posted by MantoLives on March 26, 2007 6:56:30 am
``Btw u have not replied if Jinnah`s assessment of Gandhi`s death as a `loss to humaniy`. How can u have gumption to say the opposite?``
Because Jinnah might have been a great man and a great leader but he was NOT god. He was wrong in his estimate of Gandhi... infact it was this miscalculation about some sort of faith in Gandhi`s ability to do the right thing when push came to shove that cost Jinnah a lot in my opinion.
Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot. Nothing more. The selective quotes you`ve produced to defend the half naked fraud... don`t stand the test of history when one reads Dr. Ambedkar`s ``What have Gandhi and the Congress Party done to the untouchables`` and ``Gandhi and Gandhiism``... As Dr. Ambedkar was the legitimate representative of the untouchables- his view is more important.
Because Jinnah might have been a great man and a great leader but he was NOT god. He was wrong in his estimate of Gandhi... infact it was this miscalculation about some sort of faith in Gandhi`s ability to do the right thing when push came to shove that cost Jinnah a lot in my opinion.
Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot. Nothing more. The selective quotes you`ve produced to defend the half naked fraud... don`t stand the test of history when one reads Dr. Ambedkar`s ``What have Gandhi and the Congress Party done to the untouchables`` and ``Gandhi and Gandhiism``... As Dr. Ambedkar was the legitimate representative of the untouchables- his view is more important.
#180 Posted by MantoLives on March 26, 2007 6:51:51 am
BJkumar mian,
Please let me repeat what I wrote:
Well now I produce for your benefit Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist Bigot Gandhi`s own words from the The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I have written is fact and it is you who is trying to cover up the real facts... what I produce below shows that Gandhi was the most racist and inhumane exclusivist bigot known to mankind... no wonder one of his own followers from the Mullah Brothers from Khilafat Movement declared later that even the worse Muslim was better than Gandhi... not because Gandhi was a Hindu... but because he was a racist casteist hindu fascist bigot....
Gandhi’s Mein Kempf
Like Adolf Hitler, Gandhi also compiled his racist manifesto when he was an accomplished barrister of age 35. Please note his extensive usage of the word “Kaffir” for black people- Citations are from Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi ... they may be checked again and again from any library in the US...
``A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir. ``
Collected works of MK Gandhi, Vol. 1, pg 150-151
``the whole objection to the Indian proceeds from sanitary grounds, the following restrictions are entirely unintelligible:
1. The Indians, like the Kaffirs, cannot become owners of fixed property.
2. The Indians must be registered, the fee being 3 pounds 10S.
3. In passing through the Republic, like the Natives, they must be able to produce passes unless they have the registration ticket.
4. They cannot travel first or second-class on the railways. They are huddled together in the same compartment with the Natives.
So far as the feeling has been expressed, it is to degrade the Indian to the position of the Kaffir. ``
Petition to Lord Ripon, CWOMG, Vol. 1, pg 199-200
``Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of a raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness ``
Address in Bombay, CWOMG, Vol. 2, pg 74
``...A reference to Hunter`s `Indian Empire`, chapters 3 and 4, would show at a glance who are aborigines and who are not. The matter is put so plainly that there can be no mistake about the distinction between the two. It will be seen at once from the book that the Indians in South Africa belong to the INDO-GERMANIC STOCK or, more properly speaking, the ARYAN stock
We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race. ``
Indian Opinion 24-9-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 453
...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered...
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs.
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company!
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
CWMOG = Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
Gandhi`s racism against scheduled castes and dalits
He wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.
Folio,
None of what you`ve written has actually answered the questions I raised. As for Pakistan ka matlab kiya blah blah.... I`d like you to show me where Jinnah or any of the Muslim Leaguers used this slogan. People confuse the poem ``Khudi Ka Sirhiniha La illah`` with the slogan...
In any event... if we accept that some people some where used this slogan .... it could be at best an answer to Gandhi`s ram rajya blah blah...
Please let me repeat what I wrote:
Well now I produce for your benefit Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist Bigot Gandhi`s own words from the The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I have written is fact and it is you who is trying to cover up the real facts... what I produce below shows that Gandhi was the most racist and inhumane exclusivist bigot known to mankind... no wonder one of his own followers from the Mullah Brothers from Khilafat Movement declared later that even the worse Muslim was better than Gandhi... not because Gandhi was a Hindu... but because he was a racist casteist hindu fascist bigot....
Gandhi’s Mein Kempf
Like Adolf Hitler, Gandhi also compiled his racist manifesto when he was an accomplished barrister of age 35. Please note his extensive usage of the word “Kaffir” for black people- Citations are from Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi ... they may be checked again and again from any library in the US...
``A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir. ``
Collected works of MK Gandhi, Vol. 1, pg 150-151
``the whole objection to the Indian proceeds from sanitary grounds, the following restrictions are entirely unintelligible:
1. The Indians, like the Kaffirs, cannot become owners of fixed property.
2. The Indians must be registered, the fee being 3 pounds 10S.
3. In passing through the Republic, like the Natives, they must be able to produce passes unless they have the registration ticket.
4. They cannot travel first or second-class on the railways. They are huddled together in the same compartment with the Natives.
So far as the feeling has been expressed, it is to degrade the Indian to the position of the Kaffir. ``
Petition to Lord Ripon, CWOMG, Vol. 1, pg 199-200
``Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of a raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness ``
Address in Bombay, CWOMG, Vol. 2, pg 74
``...A reference to Hunter`s `Indian Empire`, chapters 3 and 4, would show at a glance who are aborigines and who are not. The matter is put so plainly that there can be no mistake about the distinction between the two. It will be seen at once from the book that the Indians in South Africa belong to the INDO-GERMANIC STOCK or, more properly speaking, the ARYAN stock
We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race. ``
Indian Opinion 24-9-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 453
...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered...
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs.
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company!
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
CWMOG = Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
Gandhi`s racism against scheduled castes and dalits
He wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.
Folio,
None of what you`ve written has actually answered the questions I raised. As for Pakistan ka matlab kiya blah blah.... I`d like you to show me where Jinnah or any of the Muslim Leaguers used this slogan. People confuse the poem ``Khudi Ka Sirhiniha La illah`` with the slogan...
In any event... if we accept that some people some where used this slogan .... it could be at best an answer to Gandhi`s ram rajya blah blah...
#179 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 26, 2007 5:37:53 am
#174 BJKumar {``#172 Salim
Salim yaar, who says that you are the most despised person on this site?! That is ridiculous. In fact, my own positive estimation of you has gone up tremendously over the past year``}
BJ Bhayya,
Thank you for that kind expression of minority opinion. Unfortunately, the majority of Chowkies, especially the Pakistanis and some Indians, don`t share your appreciation of my views or even my sense of humor. I will concentrate positively on issues that are important to me - regardless of the advanced age of my detractors. Thanks.
Salim yaar, who says that you are the most despised person on this site?! That is ridiculous. In fact, my own positive estimation of you has gone up tremendously over the past year``}
BJ Bhayya,
Thank you for that kind expression of minority opinion. Unfortunately, the majority of Chowkies, especially the Pakistanis and some Indians, don`t share your appreciation of my views or even my sense of humor. I will concentrate positively on issues that are important to me - regardless of the advanced age of my detractors. Thanks.
#178 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2007 1:29:06 am
Just as I`ve observed innumerable times before, Yasser flees from the scene when it gets too hot for him to handle and sneaks in like a thief when no is around. No pleasant surprises this time around too :-(
#177 Posted by krishna_abcd on March 25, 2007 11:09:19 pm
#139 by HisExcellency
[re: arjun_2
{{so when will Kashmir banega Pakiland?}}
When the doctors decide to cut the patient`s foot in order to save his legs and hips. HAHA. ]
We did that already.
That stinking gangrenous foot is called Pakistan. Because of that amputation, India is a viable democratic country. The remaining amount of infection (muslims) in the rest of the body is being controlled with medication (POTA, the Indian Army etc.).
Oh. And another thing. HAHA....
[re: arjun_2
{{so when will Kashmir banega Pakiland?}}
When the doctors decide to cut the patient`s foot in order to save his legs and hips. HAHA. ]
We did that already.
That stinking gangrenous foot is called Pakistan. Because of that amputation, India is a viable democratic country. The remaining amount of infection (muslims) in the rest of the body is being controlled with medication (POTA, the Indian Army etc.).
Oh. And another thing. HAHA....
#176 Posted by Folio on March 25, 2007 9:13:09 pm
Yasser,
If Gandhi was murdered it bcoz he propagated altruistic ideals in India. Castes are not supposed to be suppressive, religion was not expected to be divisive both of which are extremely difficult to achieve.
As for ur `opinion` that Pakistan movement was unleashed by marxists, athiests, liberals and what not is nothing ur hallucination. There`s no Pakistan movement but Jinnah`s Pakistan movement. He was be all and end all. Full Stop. If u dont remember there`s a slogan, `Pakistan ka matlab kya hai? La ilaillallah` or some thing of that type. If u are ignorant ur country`s name is NOT Kafiristan (country of athiests or liberals) but Pakistan as envisioned by Rehmat Ali. Ur sugar coating of the poisonous history of Pakistan is a naked act of deception.
As for Gandhi saying all that abt blacks as kaffirs, yes the age when Gandhi grew up in India was still the age of Urdu and Muslim culture where Muslim terminology of kaffir had a good currency. If u are not aware South Africa was a racist country till recently. Most of the blacks were savages* in those days. Indians were mostly petty traders, businesmen and labourers. Even now in Gulf or anywhere outside India u see all Indians, Pakistanis live in their own communities.
There was no organised freedom struggle nor there`s a sense of nationalism among blacks to even voice abt anything in Africa by blacks. They were hunter gatherers, savages.
Coming as it does from a guy like u abt racism who boasted that 1. there are people like VRV who does shoe polish to you everyday 2. Lalas (Hindus) were necked out from west Punjab so that ur dad became rich 3. Indians are macacas etc are nothing but naked racism on ur part. Accusing Gandhi abt racism by u is akin to pot calling the kettle black OR the Kashmiri separatists using the argument of HR violations which is a 20th century concept to achieve the 17th century objective of establishing Islamic emirate in Kashmir.
Yaser, gimme a break.
WHY GANDHI’S KILLED?
What is our duty if Muslims start cutting up the Hindus
and Sikhs? As I have been telling you every day Hindus and Sikhs must not retaliate.
I saw a couplet in an Urdu magazine today. It hurt me. I do not remember the words but the substance is this: “Today Somnath is on the tongue of everyone. If the temple is renovated it will have to be avenged. A new Ghazni must come from Ghazni to avenge what happened in Junagadh.” It is painful to think that such a thing can issue from the pen of a Muslim. I have said that I must do or die; which means that I shall either bring about Hindu-Muslim amity or lay down my life..........If you will realize that Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Parsis are all brothers you will show what free India means..........
* I was once terrified to sit in the backrow among nearly-topless, stinking tribals on an MP state night-service bus from Baroda to Halol (Panchmahals dist). I was not racist but I was not comfortable for health and hygeine reasons.
Btw let me know how many of ur family women folk married blacks so far??????
If Gandhi was murdered it bcoz he propagated altruistic ideals in India. Castes are not supposed to be suppressive, religion was not expected to be divisive both of which are extremely difficult to achieve.
As for ur `opinion` that Pakistan movement was unleashed by marxists, athiests, liberals and what not is nothing ur hallucination. There`s no Pakistan movement but Jinnah`s Pakistan movement. He was be all and end all. Full Stop. If u dont remember there`s a slogan, `Pakistan ka matlab kya hai? La ilaillallah` or some thing of that type. If u are ignorant ur country`s name is NOT Kafiristan (country of athiests or liberals) but Pakistan as envisioned by Rehmat Ali. Ur sugar coating of the poisonous history of Pakistan is a naked act of deception.
As for Gandhi saying all that abt blacks as kaffirs, yes the age when Gandhi grew up in India was still the age of Urdu and Muslim culture where Muslim terminology of kaffir had a good currency. If u are not aware South Africa was a racist country till recently. Most of the blacks were savages* in those days. Indians were mostly petty traders, businesmen and labourers. Even now in Gulf or anywhere outside India u see all Indians, Pakistanis live in their own communities.
There was no organised freedom struggle nor there`s a sense of nationalism among blacks to even voice abt anything in Africa by blacks. They were hunter gatherers, savages.
Coming as it does from a guy like u abt racism who boasted that 1. there are people like VRV who does shoe polish to you everyday 2. Lalas (Hindus) were necked out from west Punjab so that ur dad became rich 3. Indians are macacas etc are nothing but naked racism on ur part. Accusing Gandhi abt racism by u is akin to pot calling the kettle black OR the Kashmiri separatists using the argument of HR violations which is a 20th century concept to achieve the 17th century objective of establishing Islamic emirate in Kashmir.
Yaser, gimme a break.
WHY GANDHI’S KILLED?
What is our duty if Muslims start cutting up the Hindus
and Sikhs? As I have been telling you every day Hindus and Sikhs must not retaliate.
I saw a couplet in an Urdu magazine today. It hurt me. I do not remember the words but the substance is this: “Today Somnath is on the tongue of everyone. If the temple is renovated it will have to be avenged. A new Ghazni must come from Ghazni to avenge what happened in Junagadh.” It is painful to think that such a thing can issue from the pen of a Muslim. I have said that I must do or die; which means that I shall either bring about Hindu-Muslim amity or lay down my life..........If you will realize that Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Parsis are all brothers you will show what free India means..........
* I was once terrified to sit in the backrow among nearly-topless, stinking tribals on an MP state night-service bus from Baroda to Halol (Panchmahals dist). I was not racist but I was not comfortable for health and hygeine reasons.
Btw let me know how many of ur family women folk married blacks so far??????
#175 Posted by Folio on March 25, 2007 8:21:21 pm
Yasser,
The Gandhi`s selected works was a 50,000 page or thereabout magnum opus. Even spending 2 hrs a day it wud take 24,000 days i.e apprx 70+ yrs to complete. I doubt u read all the collected works of Gandhi as u boasted once to sanevoice (since defunct ID). Unless u fish these doctored passages to present a skewed argument which can hardly be called objective, these passages no way portary the lifetime contributions of Gandhi.
Btw u have not replied if Jinnah`s assessment of Gandhi`s death as a `loss to humaniy`. How can u have gumption to say the opposite? U must be a man of nether world!
I am going to give reply in 2 posts to make the reply readable to all here.
Gandhi as the sole hero of Indian freedom fight has some scintillating moments. Though I cant do godly feat as u did (reading 50,000 pages) and reproduce the whole lot of passages from Gandhi`s work I reproduce some passages during 1947, especially during Aug 1947.
On SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
December 18, 1947
Today we find ourselves in a mess and have created poison for ourselves. This is what happened in Ajmer. If you want to safeguard Hinduism you cannot do so by treating as enemies the
Muslims who have stayed on in India. My days in this world are numbered. Soon I shall be gone. You will then realize that what I said was right. The same rule applies to Muslims. Islam will be dead if Muslims can tolerate only Muslims. The same goes for Christians and Christianity.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
December 24, 1947
It has never been my wish that the freedom of India should mean the ruin of the Christians here or that they should become Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs. For a Christian to become a Hindu or a Muslim is a fate worse than death. According to my view a Christian should become a better Christian, a Muslim a better Muslim and a Sikh a better Sikh. It has never been my wish that the freedom of India should mean the ruin of the Christians here or that they should become Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs. For a Christian to become a Hindu or a Muslim is a fate worse than death. According to my view a Christian should become a better Christian, a Muslim a better Muslim and a Sikh a better Sikh.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 13, 1947
It is now imperative for us to abolish untouchability. Would the Government have had the courage to open the temples through legislation? When I see that in Madras one temple after another is opening its doors to Harijans, it makes me happy. It is now imperative for us to abolish untouchability. Would the Government have had the courage to open the temples through legislation? When I see that in Madras one temple after another is opening its doors to Harijans, it makes me happy.
….
Our Government must be dedicated to raising the status of those who are downtrodden. If it does something for the Harijans, why should the Brahmins complain? Yes, if someone suggests that the Brahmins should be beaten and humiliated, then I shall say ‘no, that is bad’
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 17, 1947
I had been asked, now that temples in Tamil Nad and Andhra have been opened to Harijans, what is the situation with regard to temples in the U. P.? There are the temples in Hardwar for instance. Can Harijans visit these temples? In Travancore this was acheived long ago. Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Aiyar, the State’s Diwan, who at the moment is perhaps a little angry with us, had presuaded the Maharaja to abolish untouchability by law. In the U. P., besides Hardwar there is Kashi. Can Harijans visit the temples there? If the Harajans cannot visit those temples, them I shall consider those temples impure.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 25, 1947
If we stop cow-slaughter by law here and the very reverse happens in Pakistan, what will be the result? Supposing they say Hindus would not be allowed to visit temples because it was against Shariat to worship idols?
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
CALCUTTA,
August 16, 1947
Gandhiji expressed his pleasure that at the Chittaranjan Seva Sadan the tricolour was hoisted by an elderly Harijan Mehtrani who is faithfully serving the institution. Similarly, for a District Congress Committee (of which he had forgotten the name for the moment), a Harijan girl performed the hoisting ceremony. This was along right lines and in keeping with the present fraternal spirit of Calcutta. He hoped that the spirit was permanent and that there would be no trace of untouchability or inequality in Hinduism and that Hindus and Muslims being from the same God, would never quarrel among one another. If this spirit persisted, it would spread throughout the length and breadth of India. Then there would be no fear of disturbance in Noakhali or the Punjab.
The Gandhi`s selected works was a 50,000 page or thereabout magnum opus. Even spending 2 hrs a day it wud take 24,000 days i.e apprx 70+ yrs to complete. I doubt u read all the collected works of Gandhi as u boasted once to sanevoice (since defunct ID). Unless u fish these doctored passages to present a skewed argument which can hardly be called objective, these passages no way portary the lifetime contributions of Gandhi.
Btw u have not replied if Jinnah`s assessment of Gandhi`s death as a `loss to humaniy`. How can u have gumption to say the opposite? U must be a man of nether world!
I am going to give reply in 2 posts to make the reply readable to all here.
Gandhi as the sole hero of Indian freedom fight has some scintillating moments. Though I cant do godly feat as u did (reading 50,000 pages) and reproduce the whole lot of passages from Gandhi`s work I reproduce some passages during 1947, especially during Aug 1947.
On SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
December 18, 1947
Today we find ourselves in a mess and have created poison for ourselves. This is what happened in Ajmer. If you want to safeguard Hinduism you cannot do so by treating as enemies the
Muslims who have stayed on in India. My days in this world are numbered. Soon I shall be gone. You will then realize that what I said was right. The same rule applies to Muslims. Islam will be dead if Muslims can tolerate only Muslims. The same goes for Christians and Christianity.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
December 24, 1947
It has never been my wish that the freedom of India should mean the ruin of the Christians here or that they should become Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs. For a Christian to become a Hindu or a Muslim is a fate worse than death. According to my view a Christian should become a better Christian, a Muslim a better Muslim and a Sikh a better Sikh. It has never been my wish that the freedom of India should mean the ruin of the Christians here or that they should become Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs. For a Christian to become a Hindu or a Muslim is a fate worse than death. According to my view a Christian should become a better Christian, a Muslim a better Muslim and a Sikh a better Sikh.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 13, 1947
It is now imperative for us to abolish untouchability. Would the Government have had the courage to open the temples through legislation? When I see that in Madras one temple after another is opening its doors to Harijans, it makes me happy. It is now imperative for us to abolish untouchability. Would the Government have had the courage to open the temples through legislation? When I see that in Madras one temple after another is opening its doors to Harijans, it makes me happy.
….
Our Government must be dedicated to raising the status of those who are downtrodden. If it does something for the Harijans, why should the Brahmins complain? Yes, if someone suggests that the Brahmins should be beaten and humiliated, then I shall say ‘no, that is bad’
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 17, 1947
I had been asked, now that temples in Tamil Nad and Andhra have been opened to Harijans, what is the situation with regard to temples in the U. P.? There are the temples in Hardwar for instance. Can Harijans visit these temples? In Travancore this was acheived long ago. Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Aiyar, the State’s Diwan, who at the moment is perhaps a little angry with us, had presuaded the Maharaja to abolish untouchability by law. In the U. P., besides Hardwar there is Kashi. Can Harijans visit the temples there? If the Harajans cannot visit those temples, them I shall consider those temples impure.
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
NEW DELHI,
July 25, 1947
If we stop cow-slaughter by law here and the very reverse happens in Pakistan, what will be the result? Supposing they say Hindus would not be allowed to visit temples because it was against Shariat to worship idols?
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING
CALCUTTA,
August 16, 1947
Gandhiji expressed his pleasure that at the Chittaranjan Seva Sadan the tricolour was hoisted by an elderly Harijan Mehtrani who is faithfully serving the institution. Similarly, for a District Congress Committee (of which he had forgotten the name for the moment), a Harijan girl performed the hoisting ceremony. This was along right lines and in keeping with the present fraternal spirit of Calcutta. He hoped that the spirit was permanent and that there would be no trace of untouchability or inequality in Hinduism and that Hindus and Muslims being from the same God, would never quarrel among one another. If this spirit persisted, it would spread throughout the length and breadth of India. Then there would be no fear of disturbance in Noakhali or the Punjab.
#174 Posted by bjkumar on March 25, 2007 6:52:26 am
#172 Salim
Salim yaar, who says that you are the most despised person on this site?! That is ridiculous. In fact, my own positive estimation of you has gone up tremendously over the past year.
I do wish that you would direct more funnies and less barbs toward the ways of such well-established long-term eminent personalities as mian Tauheed, of course. I have said the same to you before also. Your funnies are remarkably spontaneous and a lot more effective than the other kind.
In ``our`` culture, we do show some respect for age - whatever the merits or demerits of an issue or a position on an issue - most of which are going to remain unchanged irrespective of what we say here. :(
In the same vein, the subcontinent is changing - mostly in positive ways. Those changes will continue, again irrespective of what we say here. :)
#173 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 25, 2007 6:47:29 am
#158 Subhashjoshi {``#Re: # 151 Salim
...Anyways, perhaps your emotions are blurring your judgement a little bit. What do you say? There must have been something about mohajirs and others that allowed Punjabi domination, as you say. ``}
Subhash Bhai,
You have a good point about every reaction requiring some sort of an original action. Perhaps it was the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs` arrogance, a sense of false superiority having to do with culture, language, and adab that caused this backlash. But, certainly they did not deserve the violence that was perpetrated against them by the Government of Pakistan. Thanks.
...Anyways, perhaps your emotions are blurring your judgement a little bit. What do you say? There must have been something about mohajirs and others that allowed Punjabi domination, as you say. ``}
Subhash Bhai,
You have a good point about every reaction requiring some sort of an original action. Perhaps it was the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs` arrogance, a sense of false superiority having to do with culture, language, and adab that caused this backlash. But, certainly they did not deserve the violence that was perpetrated against them by the Government of Pakistan. Thanks.
#172 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 25, 2007 6:40:47 am
#167 Mantolives {``On the Punjabi-Mohajir issue... I am forced to agree with Salim Chauhan... ``}
Manto Bhai,
Being the most despised person on Chowk, it is not important whether I am right or wrong. What`s important is that the injustices against the ``stranded`` yet loyal and brave Pakistanis in BD be corrected. Also, the pernicious provincialism, hegemony, and discrimination must be recognized and eradicated. Of course, you and I agree on the secular, liberal, peaceful, democratic, and just social and political environment needed for Pakistan.
Thank you, my friend, for recognizing the problem. The hopes and dreams of sincere Pakistanis are with you. Too bad, the overwhelming majority of Punjabi Pakistanis, especially on Chowk (e.g. Tahmed32, Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Khamkhwa, Zeemax, and many others) don`t share your objectivity.
Manto Bhai,
Being the most despised person on Chowk, it is not important whether I am right or wrong. What`s important is that the injustices against the ``stranded`` yet loyal and brave Pakistanis in BD be corrected. Also, the pernicious provincialism, hegemony, and discrimination must be recognized and eradicated. Of course, you and I agree on the secular, liberal, peaceful, democratic, and just social and political environment needed for Pakistan.
Thank you, my friend, for recognizing the problem. The hopes and dreams of sincere Pakistanis are with you. Too bad, the overwhelming majority of Punjabi Pakistanis, especially on Chowk (e.g. Tahmed32, Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Khamkhwa, Zeemax, and many others) don`t share your objectivity.
#171 Posted by bjkumar on March 25, 2007 6:37:43 am
#165 by subhashjoshi
[BJ, does Gandhi needs anyone`s defence? You take any great person, and you will surely find some rats who ranted against him. Its a normal thing. Its their raison d`etre.]
Mr. Joshi, perhaps you are right.
However, I am an American citizen and an American taxpayer. What the Congressman Towns does in his own constituency for his own constituency is limited to that constituency – and I wish the constituency members all the luck and success in uplifting of their status and their economic conditions.
But when the Congressman starts speaking on foreign policy matters which appear to have little or no connection to the day-to-day work he does, when he does so in a “when-nobody-is-watching” manner, and when his position on some of those issues matches so closely that taken by such groups as the Khalistanis in the USA, it makes me rather curious, that’s all!
To quote Yasser himself from one of his older responses: “I wonder what his angle is?!”
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