Is this Pakistan’s Democratic Revolution?

Re: # 245

Who is this Wolpert? Was he a US ambassador to Pakistan like Ryan C. Crocker, who gave to the government a gift far more valuable than anything that it could have asked for. He was reported to have told the press in Islamabad that in his view “Pakistan is a democratic country”. Zoot ki bhi hadd hoti hain!

We should not quote some white scums, who write everything to divide the others so that they can be colonized. I would rather listen to another Gandhi, e.g. Sarhaddd Gandhi, Vinoba or such evolved consciousness and not a firangi Mcaulay who is paid to write. Even if not paid to write a chipmonk on the ground will see and feel a cloud in the sky as a rabbit who is going to help/hurt him. I would rather listen to the eagle to form an opinion about the cloud because eagle lives in the cloud. Moreover, why should I form an opinion ... I must know the nature of the cloud if I want to reach beyond the cloud ... to a higher consciousness. For that I need to be willing to leave the lower consciousness or chipmonkness ... I should lessen my attachments to dogmas, personalities and duality of hate-affection.

Re: # 245

Who is this Wolpert? Is he a US ambassador to Pakistan, Ryan C. Crocker, who gave to the government a gift far more valuable than anything that it could have asked for. He was reported to have told the press in Islamabad that in his view “Pakistan is a democratic country”. Zoot ki bhi hadd hoti hain!

We should not quote some white scums, who write everything to divide the others so that they can be colonized. I would rather listen to another Gandhi, e.g. Sarhaddd Gandhi, Vinoba or such evolved consciousness and not a firangi Mcaulay who is paid to write. Even if not paid to write a chipmonk on the ground will see and feel a cloud in the sky. I would rather listen to the eagle who lives in the cloud.

Re: # 247

rf786,

U gtg to ur own board. We can discuss the MKG`s Mein Kampf there.

Grow up VRV...

Ysser,

Ur effing article is being effed-up from all directions. What r u doin here?

Dear Harish mian,

Wrong again... unless you are an idiot... which you may just be.

1. Stanley Wolpert Page 287 accepts Wavell`s point of view:

Directly quoted out of Wolpert.

On August 21, Wavell informed Pethick Lawrence that “the present estimate” of casualties was 3000 dead and 17,000 injured. Congress was convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League ministry but the Viceroy had as yet seen no “satisfactory evidence to that effect.” The latest estimate of casualties was that “appreciably more Muslims than Hindus were killed”

2. Wikipedia`s article that you quoted is undergoing inquiry by Wikipedia Moderators for quoting biased one sided sources .

3. Margaret Bourke-white`s account had several contradictions which prove that she was biased. In any event her quote that you rely on is inconclusive.


So what is your point. Jinnah gave a call for strike... and Gandhi`s followers butchered Muslims left right and center... so Jinnah is to blame?

Also, the Time magazine quoting Jinnah`s own press says that he was sleeping on the floors anticipating arrest. Stanley Wolpert, Wikipedia (quoting various references), Margaret Bourke White, all say that it was the Muslim League that started the violence, so are you saying all of them conspired against the ah-so-innocent Jinnah? Moron!

#240 by Yasser

The original discussion here was about Gandhi`s crimes against humanity and not about Jinnah.

Aww really? Can you point us ti the ``original discussion`` and where it began?

Unable to defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi ...you tried to pin something unsuccessfuly on Jinnah and when I asked you direct questions and quoted some primary sources, you are back to your whining. That is to be expected...

What a pathetic defense of the old crook! If this is the kind of arguments that a lawyer ``employed with the top law firm in Pakistan`` can come up with, one is forced to wonder if the guy is a ``sifarshi`` employee.

Anyone with half an ounce of gray matter would understand that the DAD violence was the result of Jinnah`s call, but apparently it is too much to expect Yasser to understand this, given the fact that his IQ competes with that of the humble animal embedded in his first name. Instead, the fool blames Gandhi for not stopping the violence. This is like trying to kill someone and then blaming the police for not arriving at the crime scene before the murder was committed...LOL!

By the way, I see that you are really trying to run away from this discussion... as you`ve done on every single discussion we`ve had... but the questions still require your response... particularly:

Aww really? So be it, but please let us know how Gandhi comes into the picture because it was Jinnah and his cronies who called for the DAD violence?

Re: # 239
>Harijano ki tatti uthane say harijano kay masail hul nahin hotay...

Yours truly is not Harijan but very close in British decided hierarchy of caste. Gandhi Baba gave method to address social injustice without destroying the society. Influence of Gandhi is there even on Dalit organization. Gandhism will triumph over the imperialism of Naxalbari.

views of another `unelected` person:

http://streams.gandhiserve.org/einstein.html

Mahatma Gandhi`s life achievement stands unique in political history. He has invented a completely new and humane means for the liberation war of an oppressed country, and practised it with greatest energy and devotion. The moral influence he had on the conciously thinking human being of the entire civilized world will probably be much more lasting than it seems in our time with its overestimation of brutal violent forces. Because lasting will only be the work of such statesmen who wake up and strengthen the moral power of their people through their example and educational works.
We may all be happy and grateful that destiny gifted us with such an enlightened contemporary, a role model for the generations to come.

and.....

Respected Mr. Gandhi !
I use the presence of your friend in our home to send you these lines. You have shown through your works, that it is possible to succeed without violence even with those who have not discarded the method of violence. We may hope that your example will spread beyond the borders of your country, and will help to establish an international authority, respected by all, that will take decisions and replace war conflicts.
With sincere admiration,
Yours
A. Einstein.
I hope that I will be able to meet you face to face some day.

and more....

Einstein on Gandhi

I believe that Gandhi`s views were the most enlightened of all the political men in our time.
We should strive to do things in his spirit: not to use violence in fighting for our cause, but by non-participation in anything you believe is evil.

Re: # 236

The original discussion here was about Gandhi`s crimes against humanity and not about Jinnah.

Unable to defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi ...you tried to pin something unsuccessfuly on Jinnah and when I asked you direct questions and quoted some primary sources, you are back to your whining. That is to be expected... you are Harish_hyd after all...

By the way, I see that you are really trying to run away from this discussion... as you`ve done on every single discussion we`ve had... but the questions still require your response... particularly:

Where was the freak Gandhi while his followers butchered Muslims in Calcutta?

Re: # 231

Harijano ki tatti uthane say harijano kay masail hul nahin hotay...

Re: # 232

Ah... atleast Martin Luthar King and Nelson Mandela were better credible examples.... imagine... an unelected American president coming to the Gandhi`s rescue when the discussion is about his racism.

And for Okhla mian, a 69 is anyday better than a BJ, (which is what you`re doing) because you get nothing..LOL!

Folks,

Yasser`s fascination with orifices continues, now he`s after Gandhi`s, which is why the frequent referrences to enema. And the way he continues to bring up CWOG shows that he has no argument left, which is why he is desperately seeking to divert attention from Jinnah`s crimes.

Almost everyone could foresee what Jinnah`s Direct Action Day, except the man himself and his cronies. Were they so stupid that they couldn`t see what ordinary newspaper editors could, or was it a deliberate plan to wreak havoc so the British conceded to their demands? Either way, it doesn`t speak too highly of ailing old crook. The man was either a naive fool or was a bloodthirsty vampire seeking a piece of land to lord over.

And Yaar Folio, fittingly Jinnah`s place is permanently reserved in the dustbins of history, while Gandhi continues to inspire great men like Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and countless others. That burns up Yasser`s chaddis which is why he resorts to vandalizing websites where he can.

Okhla/Zeemax,

How abt Chinkies in Wanchai are any better than ur own chinky, 99-in-chief?

Re: # 233

VRV/Folio

The Burger King delivery boy mentality reflects itself when you talk of hot sauce pans. BTW
you got the spelling wrong.

Grow up, mate. Return to the topic.

Loksevak,

Why expect understanding from namak haraami types like Mantolives?

Pak history had congenital genetic deformity. They had to live with that.

Just watch and enjoy the show of the cat on hot sause pan.

http://www.ford.utexas.edu/grf/Funeral/smith.asp

Gerald Ford could be a surprising man.

As part of the Millennium celebrations, Time Magazine invited prominent Americans to identify the pre-eminent figure of the twentieth century, along with a backup selection in case their first choice had already been taken. I fully expected President Ford to nominate a Winston Churchill or Dwight Eisenhower. He did nothing of the kind. Without hesitation he declared the greatest man of the century to be Mahatma Gandhi. The second greatest, in his opinion, was Anwar Sadat.

Kisne Nathuram ki goli Khai?

Kisne Harijanon ki Tatti Uthai?

Kisne Pakistan ki 55 crore Rs. ke liye fasting ki?

Kisne Naukhali mein raat bitai?

Kaun aeroplanese Karachi Pahuncha?

Kaun Char sal ke liye London mein retire hua?

Kaun Apna Mumbai ka Ghar only Firangionko rent karne wala tha?

Harish mian,

Why are you so adamant about fooling everyone ?

Aww now you are depending on Bourkewhite`s of what Jinnah said (which as usual is inconclusive)... and that too I have dealt with in detail by exposing the glaring contradictions in Margaret Bourkewhite`s account on another board which I gladly quote if you want...

But lets just put that as is, and see that despite what you think Jinnah meant or didn`t mean ... the facts are that every primary source says that

1. Armed with guns and swords Hindus and Sikhs were being bussed in to Calcutta, as opposed to Muslims who reportedly were throwing bottles and had sticks in their hands etc ...

2. Three times more Muslims died than Hindus.

3. The government did not find any evidence of Muslim League`s involvement despite hue and cry by the Congress...


All these point towards Congress` culpability and are clear proof of who was behind what.

Ofcourse... later the Congress used words like ``trouble`` ... ``pistol`` etc to falsify history in classical 1984 fashion... but I think beyond perception of the common Hindu fascist brought up on a diet of hate and bigotry... no one really would buy their bs.

The question remains... while Gandhi`s followers were razing Calcutta to the ground... where was Gandhi ? What rat hole was he getting his salt enema administered in?

I wonder...

#228 by Yasser

So lets get this straight... Jinnah gives a call for strike. His followers go on strike. Gandhi`s followers butcher them left right and center .... and Gandhi has no responsibility because Jinnah gave the call for strike.

Abay chutiye, the fact that you still haven`t been able to disprove my contention that it was Jinnah`s call to Direct Action that led to the violence shows that you have no legs to stand on. If you have any evidence to the contrary, share it with us. Also, what evidence do you have to show that it was Gandhi`s followers who did it?

And moron, there is a huge difference between a strike and what Jinnah was planning

Direct Action in Calcutta

Excerpt:

``There was silence for a moment, broken only by the cooing of pigeons, hopping over Jinnah`s manicured lawn. Then he added in the same toneless voice, so strangely unmatched to his words: ``Why do you expect me alone to sit with folded hands? I also am going to make trouble.``

I know you`re paid to lie in your profession, but we won`t let you off the hook so easily here. You still have no answer to the above questions which have been asked on this board at least a couple of times now, which proves that you`re merely skirting the issue, perhaps in the hope that this board will die down in a couple of days from now.

In your zeal to defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi you`ve lost all balance which is why you are now down to calling me names you probably fondly call your father by...

Nope, I reserve those names for calling special cases like you. I`m considering using them for your father too, first for having given birth to a dumbhead like you and then spending lakhs to educate you in the west without any success. Looks like he got zero ROI, poor fellow!

Okhla99,

Well said. These two jokers think of themselves as some sort of defenders of India`s honor and protectors of Gandhiji`s dhoti...


Harish mian,

So lets get this straight... Jinnah gives a call for strike. His followers go on strike. Gandhi`s followers butcher them left right and center .... and Gandhi has no responsibility because Jinnah gave the call for strike.

To use your logic... General Dyer had NO moral responsibility (like Gandhi) because it was those Sikhs who wanted independence and put pressure on the government and making inflammatory statements against the government and congregate etc .... Do you see how stupid you sound? Ofcourse you don`t... because you are blind. In your zeal to defend the racist casteist Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi you`ve lost all balance which is why you are now down to calling me names you probably fondly call your father by...

``That is like Mushy blaming Shaukat Aziz``

Then pray tell why didn`t Nehru resgn instead of Shastri. You as always are a genius at contradicting yourself.

Suhrawardy was asked to resign because as the head of the Muslim League government he had not managed to control the law and order... which meant that the Congress Goons had a free rein of killing innocent people on Direct Action day... It was the lapse of law and order and not some moral culpability (which I have proved lay directly with the Congress Goons who were bussed in to Calcutta in large numbers armed to teeth with guns and swords)

Sir Francis Tuker says:
Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

And Lord Wavell wrote:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``


The million dollar question is that when Congress was bussing in Hindus and Sikhs into Calcutta, armed to the teeth, what was Gandhi doing? Getting a salt enema administered? or fasting to remain fit?

Your failure to answer why Gandhi didn`t stop Hindus and Sikhs - despite incontrovertible evidence that they were butchering Muslims left right and center... shows the real story.

Folio,

So you are saying all black people in South Africa were sweepers which is why Gandhi hated them? And what about the inferior genetic stock... their inability to live like human beings ... and all the other fine divinely revealed ``Indo-Aryan`` superiority clauses that Gandhi gave in support of his position that all Black people were subhuman?

So far you`ve got nothing. Let me refresh your memory as to what Gandhi really said:



Gandhi’s Mein Kempf

Like Adolf Hitler, Gandhi also compiled his racist manifesto when he was an accomplished barrister of age 35. Please note his extensive usage of the word “Kaffir” for black people- Citations are from Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi ... they may be checked again and again from any library in the US...


``A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir. ``
Collected works of MK Gandhi, Vol. 1, pg 150-151

``the whole objection to the Indian proceeds from sanitary grounds, the following restrictions are entirely unintelligible:
1. The Indians, like the Kaffirs, cannot become owners of fixed property.
2. The Indians must be registered, the fee being 3 pounds 10S.
3. In passing through the Republic, like the Natives, they must be able to produce passes unless they have the registration ticket.
4. They cannot travel first or second-class on the railways. They are huddled together in the same compartment with the Natives.
So far as the feeling has been expressed, it is to degrade the Indian to the position of the Kaffir. ``
Petition to Lord Ripon, CWOMG, Vol. 1, pg 199-200


``Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of a raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness ``
Address in Bombay, CWOMG, Vol. 2, pg 74

``...A reference to Hunter`s `Indian Empire`, chapters 3 and 4, would show at a glance who are aborigines and who are not. The matter is put so plainly that there can be no mistake about the distinction between the two. It will be seen at once from the book that the Indians in South Africa belong to the INDO-GERMANIC STOCK or, more properly speaking, the ARYAN stock

We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race. ``
Indian Opinion 24-9-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 453

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered...
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs.
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company!
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149

CWMOG = Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi`s racism against scheduled castes and dalits

He wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

#225, Majumdar {``Well Indian/Lankan/Bdeshi politicans are not much better, some possibly a lot worse, but haven`t heard any suggestion from these countries that democracy be dumped. Besides, I am not suggesting that democracy is a solution to all problems, at least in the short-term. And if you have a grouse about most of democratcially elected rulers being Punjoos, that is the demographic reality of Pak, what can you do about it? All but one of US Presidents have been White Protestant Males. So hardly unique to Pak.``}

Majumdar Bhai,

I agree with your comments regarding the need to give democracy a chance and the importance of building permanent institutions and processes - including the peaceful transition of power. Even under ``democratic`` rule, Pakistan has had only one peaceful transition of power. The fact is that Mushy`s benign dictatorship has a far better record when it comes to freedoms of press, assembly, and expression. Consider Bhutto, Bezameer, and Besharif`s sad autocratic manner of governing.

I think that your unintentional justification of ``mob rule`` resulting in Punju hegemony cannot draw support from the pigmentation of past US presidents. The US Constitution ensures the concept of local government, protection of minorities, and the rights of smaller states. I think that Mushy is trying his best, under very difficult circumstances, to build the kind of democracy and institutions that will lead to an acceptable level of democracy in Pakistan.

#215 by Yasser

Also... nobody has answered the simple question as to why - when Gandhi`s followers were butchering Muslims in and around Calcutta, did Gandhi wait four months before trying to stop them?

Chutiye, that is because it was not Gandhi who gave the call to DAD. If anyone had to do it, it was Jinnah, but the old TB-ridden crook was bent on showing the street power of his ML thugs, which is why his cronies were issuing inflammatory statements. While his cronies were causing bloodshed on Calcutta`s streets, the old coot was perhaps masturbating.

Asking Jinnah to call off a strike after the day was infact over was a truly moronic argument worth harish hyd`s reputation ...

But it is your repututation that lies in tatters after you`ve failed to prove that it was not Jinnah whose call was responsible for the DAD violence.

#214 by Yasser

Just because you say something, it does not stand ``proved``. I know you are quite delusional about your self importance, but please allow me to say it is not true.

Abay Gadhay, if you had half the brains that the humble animal that is embedded in your name, you would know that nothing I wrote is said by me. They`re said by the crook Jinnah`s contemporaries, be they newspaper editors or politicians. But how would you know, given your mental prowess..er..I mean the lack of it?

If Lal Bahadur Shastri resigned for the train accident, so was Suhrawardy removed and replaced with Nazimuddin. So your point is what... because what you are arguing as usual does not make any sense.

This is like Mushy blaming Shaukat Aziz for the CJP fiasco. Wonder why Yasser wants Mushy to go when it was Shaukat Aziz who is to blame. The fact is that Suhrawardy was made the convenient scapegoat for Jinnah`s crimes. After the DAD resolution was passed, Suhrawardy said, ``We await the Quaid`s clarion call`` which clearly shows that he was acting at the old crook`s behest.

So since Jinnah called for direct action day, a peaceful day of protest, Gandhi`s goons were free to maim and murder Muslims left right and center?

Oh really? When every newspaper editor and politician of the day was of the view that the DAD would lead to bloodshed, this chutiya thinks it was a ``peaceful day of protest``...LOL!

There is no definitive answer to who started what. But all reports speak of Muslims with sticks and stones and Hindus with guns etc... so it is clear that it was Congress that had planned the whole thing well in advance to bring down the Muslim League government.

The Time Magazine, Margaret Bourke White`s book, Stanley Wolpert, all say that it was Muslim Leaguers who started the violence, and yet this foolsays its not clear who started it? Is there anything more left to say? LOL!

corection:

Btw, urs is a racist family too i.e nobody married a sweeper or a black.

i/o

Btw, urs is a racist family too i.e nobody married a a sweeper of a black.

Yasser,

So ur mind in ossified at the certain milestones of the lives of Gandhi & Jinnah. As many does, the lives of Gandhi & Jinnah shud be looked at for the sum contributions. It`s clear for the umpteenth time that u dont have stomach to look at history wholesomely. U are at best a propagandist. What a life!.

Btw, urs is a racist family too i.e nobody married a a sweeper of a black.

Gandhi was a saint, Jinnah was a blood-thirsty beast.

okhla``99``,

Are u busy doing 99?

U are are ideological eunuch. U never wrote that can be called discussion but taking breaks from 99 to butt-in on chowk discussions. Poor chap. Get engaged in 99. Dont turn over 4 me, idiot-in-chief.

Folio mian,

If Jinnah called Gandhi humanistic... Gandhi, along with most other Indian leaders that you respect, also called Jinnah the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity and a true Indian nationalist and patriot on several occasions-even as late as 1939... so your logic falls flat on its face...

So you can go on abusing Jinnah... but history cannot be rewritten by abuses.

Salimbhai,

(I find it difficult to believe that Pakistan has been without a rudder for the past 7+ years. :)

That was not my suggestion. Sorry if that has been the meaning conveyed. Mush has certainly governed Pak and possibly reasonably well by Third World standards (although I would not be the best judge of that), my only submission was that the recent good growth shown by Pak may not be entirely credited to Mush.

(We had civilian and ``democratically-elected`` PPP and Punju administrations under Nawaz Besharif and Bezameer Bhutto for well over a decade and look at what they did. )

Well Indian/Lankan/Bdeshi politicans are not much better, some possibly a lot worse, but haven`t heard any suggestion from these countries that democracy be dumped. Besides, I am not suggesting that democracy is a solution to all problems, at least in the short-term. And if you have a grouse about most of democratcially elected rulers being Punjoos, that is the demographic reality of Pak, what can you do about it? All but one of US Presidents have been White Protestant Males. So hardly unique to Pak.

But what about military govts, what about the long-term damages they have caused.

(Mushy is a military, albeit a benign, dictator)

You may be right on this although many Pakis these days would beg to differ. But that is not the point. Even if he is very good, what if he is bumped off? Would the good job that he is doing be sustained. For that reason, Pak needs to build instituitions- constitutional governance, independent judiciary (as Manto mian keeps emphasising), free press, freedom of citizenry, apolitical armed forces/bureaucracy etc. It wont be easy to build, it wont yield results for years, maybe even a generation, but in the long run that is the only option that Pak (or any country has in the long run).

(but give him some credit for steering Pakistan through a very difficult period - especially since 9/11.)

The problem is Pakistan is located in a very difficult place, and its location will keep it in a very volatile, troubled state. And that would mean a permanent justification for junta rule.

Regards

Yasser,

Tell me when u come close to reading the volumes of the 1947?

Congress was not a communal party but Muslim League was. Gandhi was humanistic (acknowledged by Jinnah) but Jinnah was a communal, blood thristy beast.

Btw whether any of ur family members married sweepers or blacks??

Okhla,

I dont know if I am in 69 - which in anyway is heterosexual - u are in 99, a gay stuff. Does it need a second word that u are an idiot-in-chief??

Shut-up and write something we can discuss.....keep ur homilies to ur homo-guyz.

Okhla,

I dont if I am in 69 - which in anyway is heterosexual - u are in 99, a gay stuff. Does it need a second word that u are an idiot-in-chief??

Shut-up and write something we can discuss.....keep ur homilies to ur homo-guyz.

Folio (VRV) & Harish,

Your mutual sixtynining (yes mouthfull and all..) is only digressing from the topic of this board.

Comeback to the present. Understand that viewpoints diametrically opposed to your own may also be valid. Sometimes even more valid. Irrational knee jerk reactions to any idea that you do not find acceptable (for whatever reason) only diminish your own standing on Chowk. VRV/ Folio is an established idiot. Harish need not team up with him at all, since he otherwise enjoys a reasonable degree of credibility.

May good sense prevail...

``lingers in my mind``

What a place your mind must be...

#206 by majumdar on March 27, 2007 2:11am PT
Salimbhai,

Pakistan is doing well economically but that is not entirely because of good handling by the current govt. It is benefiting from some extraneous factors ...A civilian admin dominated by PPP Punjabis would have done as well, I would think.

Incidentally Ayub and Zia govt (Pathan, Punjoo) saw good growth for Pak too. But just as in their case, lack of institution buidling could undermine the current govt achievements too.``}

Majumdar Bhai,
I find it difficult to believe that Pakistan has been without a rudder for the past 7+ years. :)
We had civilian and ``democratically-elected`` PPP and Punju administrations under Nawaz Besharif and Bezameer Bhutto for well over a decade and look at what they did. Bangladesh and fundo terrorism are the true legacies of Ayub and Zina Owl Hag. :)

Mushy is a military, albeit a benign, dictator, but give him some credit for steering Pakistan through a very difficult period - especially since 9/11. Thanks.

Re: # 212

PS : Harish mian is a habitual liar ... he knows full well that no such thing happened but he wishes.

Also... nobody has answered the simple question as to why - when Gandhi`s followers were butchering Muslims in and around Calcutta, did Gandhi wait four months before trying to stop them?

Asking Jinnah to call off a strike after the day was infact over was a truly moronic argument worth harish hyd`s reputation ... when infact Jinnah did not wait even a single day before condemning the violence duly condemning it the next morning... but letting Gandhi off the hook for not stopping his goons- who were armed to the teeth according to all reports- even four months from the violence is just novel.... ``because Gandhi did not call for Direct Action Day`` which meant Gandhi did not need to tell his followers not to resort to violence of the worst kind against Muslims... wah.

I suppose Gandhi did not want to restrain his followers because 1. someone had administered a salt enema rendering him speechless 2. he had a vow of silence against all Muslims.

Folio,

The pogroms were carried by the Congress Party not the Muslim League. Abusing Jinnah might one way of defending the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi... but sadly you`ve never been able to back your claims against Jinnah...

Dear Harish mian,

1. Just because you say something, it does not stand ``proved``. I know you are quite delusional about your self importance, but please allow me to say it is not true.

2. If Lal Bahadur Shastri resigned for the train accident, so was Suhrawardy removed and replaced with Nazimuddin. So your point is what... because what you are arguing as usual does not make any sense.

3. So since Jinnah called for direct action day, a peaceful day of protest, Gandhi`s goons were free to maim and murder Muslims left right and center?

4. There is no definitive answer to who started what. But all reports speak of Muslims with sticks and stones and Hindus with guns etc... so it is clear that it was Congress that had planned the whole thing well in advance to bring down the Muslim League government.

He justifies hate and pogroms and ethnic cleansings of Muslim League and cuts sorry figure with a straight face for the current plight of Pak polity & society not forgetting that the present heat was actaully flowing from the grave of Jinnah.

I can see the vandalism of MantoDIES on Wikipedia. Harish, I`d like to know if his arse was burnt beyond recognition for such vandalism?

He justifies hate and pogroms and ethnic cleansings of Muslim League and cuts sorry figure with a straight face not forgetting that the current heat was actaully flowing from the grave of Jinnah. BJ once said it & still lingers in my mind: Jinnah started a small grave and his followers never started digging it deeper and deeper even today.

#208 by Yasser

How logical... So ... when the British hand over power to the Congress instead of the league they were being balanced but when they made a statement against the Congress they were pro-Muslim League ... brilliant objectivity.

Aww...now that Jinnah`s culpability has been proven beyond doubt, you had to resort to outright lies, how very surprising! Please show us where I called the British balanced? Looks like all the truth therapy has caused you to lose your mental balance, that`s all!

Those statements, unsourced and inconclusive as they are, were probably used by the Congress to justify its actions.

Show us the evidence, moron! ``Probably`` is not proof.

It goes without saying that Muslim League strongholds and Muslim Majority cities remained peaceful despite complete hartal. Calcutta was chosen by the Congress to taint the Muslim League and bring down its ministry.

And that`s not the point, idiot. We`re talking about what happened in Calcutta on DAD. Who cares what happened elsewhere!

And while you`ve just quoted an editorial, conjectures and surmises, I am giving you actual and circumstantial evidence which shows that the Congress` followers, the Hindus and Sikhs, was involved in the heinous crimes against humanity...

Do do you even know what the word ``conjecture`` means? Lal Bahadur Shastri, a former Indian PM, resigned as the Railways Minister from Nehru`s cabinet because there had been a train accident in which a couple of hundred passengers lost their lives. And here we have the crook, who despite causing almost 4000 deaths, brazenly went on to become the governor general of his country. That shows what a scrupulous person this man was.

Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

Did Tuker say who started the violence? What`s your point?

At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``

Again, Wavell doesn`t speak about who started it, so I fail to understand what you`re getting at.

The million dollar question is that when Congress was bussing in Hindus and Sikhs into Calcutta, armed to the teeth, what was Gandhi doing? Getting a salt enema administered? or fasting to remain fit?

Idiot, only a absolute moron like you would drag Gandhi into this. Did Gandhi call for DAD? Then why should he bother? Have you taken leave of your senses?

Your failure to answer why Gandhi didn`t stop Hindus and Sikhs - despite incontrovertible evidence that they were butchering Muslims left right and center... shows the real story.

Till now, you haven`t been able to disprove the fact that it was Jinnah`s call that led to violence. Instead you want Gandhi to stop the killings of Muslims, which was in retaliation to Muslim violence unleashed on Hindus and Sikhs in response to Jinnah`s call to Direct Action.

....Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beast.

i/o


Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beat

yasser,

I dont think u can understand history. I know u are educated in Pakistan. I dont think u can read (I dont mean understand, for u are a dodo) all the works of Gandhi. His views on blacks are not unusual. At any rate Gandhi is a saint, Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beat. There`s no comparison.

As for travelling with dirty people, Gandhi did it all the time (travelling III class in trains) whereas the Racist Jinnah avoided contact with the poor and travelled I calss. Jinnah was a super racist.

There`s never a biggest bigot than Jinnah in the history of modern India. There`s never a biggest communalist than Jinnah. If people in Pakistan feel the heat of extremism, it`s the biosphere of hate that was infused into the thinking of the inhabitants of the north west India i.e Pakistan. Live with it.

U have not confirmed if any of ur family members married blacks or at least choorhas.

Dear Harish mian,
Harish mian...

How logical... So ... when the British hand over power to the Congress instead of the league they were being balanced but when they made a statement against the Congress they were pro-Muslim League ... brilliant objectivity.

Those statements, unsourced and inconclusive as they are, were probably used by the Congress to justify its actions. It goes without saying that Muslim League strongholds and Muslim Majority cities remained peaceful despite complete hartal. Calcutta was chosen by the Congress to taint the Muslim League and bring down its ministry.

And while you`ve just quoted an editorial, conjectures and surmises, I am giving you actual and circumstantial evidence which shows that the Congress` followers, the Hindus and Sikhs, was involved in the heinous crimes against humanity...

Sir Francis Tuker says:
Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

And Lord Wavell wrote:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``


The million dollar question is that when Congress was bussing in Hindus and Sikhs into Calcutta, armed to the teeth, what was Gandhi doing? Getting a salt enema administered? or fasting to remain fit?

Your failure to answer why Gandhi didn`t stop Hindus and Sikhs - despite incontrovertible evidence that they were butchering Muslims left right and center... shows the real story.

Yasser thinks by quoting British officials, who were traditionally pro-ML and vehemently against the Congress, he can get Jinnah off the hook. But here are editorials, statements from Jinnah and his cohorts which make it clear what lay ahead.


This is an editorial from the ‘News Chronicle’ of the 30th July, 1946, which foresaw what was to come a full fortnight before the actual violence took place. Was Jinnah so stupid to not have foreseen what a newspaper editor (and many others) could?

Said the ‘News Chronicle’ of the 30th July, 1946, a day after the passage of the Direct Action Resolution:

“What precisely does Mr. Jinnah think he will achieve by embracing violence-and at a moment when so substantial a part of his claims has been conceded?

“Does he think that communal strife will benefit India or even the Muslim part of India? He has only to look at other parts of Asia to see what lies at the end of that tunnel.

“Does he want his country to become another China, ravaged and utterly impoverished by interminable Civil War?

“It is hopeless, of course, if Mr. Jinnah is wedded to complete intransigeance-if, as now seems the case he really is thirsting for a holy war.

“If Mr. Jinnah nosy resorts to violence, it will be very difficult to save India from disaster.”


Some of the things said by Jinnah on this occasion:

“What we have done to-day is the most historic act in our history. Never have we in the whole history of the League done anything except by constitutional methods. But now we are forced into this position. Today we bid good-bye to constitutional methods.”

“To-day we have forged a pistol and are in a position to use it.”

“We mean every word of it. We do not believe in equivocation.”

“If you seek peace, we do not want War. But if you want War, we will accept it unhesitatingly.”


Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Khan, later Prime Minister of the Dominion of Pakistan, elucidating the implications of the Direct Action threat, said:

“Direct Action means resort to non-constitutional methods, and that can take any form which may suit the conditions under which we live. We cannot eliminate any methods. Direct Action means any action against the Law.”

Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar, later a member of the Pakistan Government, declared:

“Pakistan can only be achieved through shedding blood of ourselves, and if need be, and if opportunity arose, by shedding blood of others. Muslims are no believers in Ahimsa.”

Raja Ghanzafar Ali Khan, later also member of the Pakistan Government, speaking to a huge Muslim gathering at Lahore on the 31st August, 1946 outlined the Muslim League Direct Action as the economic political and social boycott of the Congress and ‘the following of a scorched earth policy.’

Jinnah held out the threat that Direct Action by Muslims would lead to one hundred times more destruction than the Direct Action of the Hindus (meaning the Congress).

Ghulam Mustafa Shah Gilani said:

“Any attempt to prevent the establishment of Pakistan would lead to bloodshed.”

Sardar Shaukat Hyat Khan said:

“The Punjab Muslims do not believe in non-violence and should not, therefore, be given cause for grievance because once the Muslim lion is infuriated it would become difficult to subdue him.”

Sir Feroze Khan Noon said:

“I tell you this much that if we find that we have to fight Great Britain for placing us under one Central Hindu Raj, then the havoc which Muslims will plays will put to shame what Jenghez and Halaku Khan did.”

Sir Ghulam Hussain Hadayatullah, at that time Premier of Sind and later under Pakistan, Governor of the same Province, said:

“The Congress should understand that unless they make friends with us and accede to our demands there will he no peace in India.”

All these make amply clear as to what was in store, but only Yasser and his cohorts have trouble comprehending. Ah well!

Salimbhai,

Pakistan is doing well economically but that is not entirely because of good handling by the current govt. It is benefiting from some extraneous factors like overall strong growth globally, financial aid/inflows following 9/11 and the fact that Arabs who are finding West a more unreliable place to invest in are now shifting funds to Pak (incidentally India too). A civilian admin dominated by PPP Punjabis would have done as well, I would think.

Incidentally Ayub and Zia govt (Pathan, Punjoo) saw good growth for Pak too. But just as in their case, lack of institution buidling could undermine the current govt achievements too.

Regards

Now how is Civil and Military Gazette a pro Muslim League paper? That is just amazing. It is an editorial... hence a point of view. You keep making up news facts...

If the violence waged on four days... it was Congress goons who were being bussed in. How could Jinnah stop them? And where the hell was Gandhi ... oh I know he did not issue a statement till November 03 1946.... four months after the violence had abided.

So far you`ve not produced anything that can remotely be used against the Muslim League...

Meanwhile ... Sir Francis Tuker says:
Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.


And Lord Wavell wrote:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``


I think it is quite clear who armed who... and your selective quoting of some newspaper editorial will NOT change the facts about Calcutta Killings... besides if violence was what was required... the League could have done it better elsewhere. And the greatest beneficiary of this violence was the Congress Party which got an excuse for keeping the League out of the government.

So circumstantial and well as direct evidence proves that it was Congress which did it to taint Muslim League- which till then had been a strictly constitutional party- with violence.

#201 by broken record Yasser

If your claim about my running away are true, why is it that you are still missing in action on atleast 15 different boards despite my repeated offers to you to answer direct questins...

Hahahaha! And pray tell us what those boards might be? The fact that you`ve been caught with your pants down so frequently for fleeing boards where it gets too hot is clearly playing on your mind, and to redeem yourself, you have to accuse others of doing the same thing...LOL!

As for Your questions, they have all been answered adequately here and on other boards as well.

Can you please point to the specific points in your posts where they`ve been answered? Because all is see is a sea of words full of obfuscation and propaganda.

Now If direct action day was 16th August 1946 exclusively... what ``movement`` was Jinnah supposed to call off on the 17th? The busloads of Congress workers being brought in by Patel and the lot? This is just amazing logic...

The violence, fool. Even though Jinnah supposedly called a ``peaceful`` DAD for one day, violence raged on for four full days. For someone who is supposed to have read a great deal of the history surrounding the independence movement, you sure come across as rather ignorant. But then, reading and understanding are two entirely different things.

Now what newspaper is that ... did you just invent it like everything else?

It is ``The Civil & Military Gazette of Lahore``, a pro-League paper...this is what it had to say:

“We have termed the jeremiads of Muslim Leaguers ‘near hysterical nonsense,’ but they represent a trend of thought and a psychological attitude which hold the utmost danger for the whole country. Words are being broadcast everyday which will make fanatics of law-abiding citizens and throw them into the same camp with the lowest of goondas.

“Authentic reports from all parts of India describe the country as a powder-magazine, and at the moment the Muslim League is holding a torch which may send it sky-high. If the spark is applied, the present League leadership (in case, you didn`t know what it meant, it is Jinnah) will have to shoulder responsibility for events which will not only blast for ever all hopes of Hindu-Muslim co-operation in any field, but which will ruin all chances of India’s progress for decades.”

So even a lowly newspaper editor understands who must be blamed, but the supposedly Rutgers-educated ``attorney at law`` working for ``one of Pakistan`s top law firms`` doesn`t...LOL!

Re: # 202

PS: The great irony is that while reports speak of Muslims armed with sticks and bottles... all reports show that Hindus and Sikhs were armed to the teeth with Guns, fire arms and swords...

Sir Francis Tuker

Courtesy: While Memory Serves
(London: Cassell, 1950), pp. 137-151

Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

Dear Harish mian,

If your claim about my running away are true, why is it that you are still missing in action on atleast 15 different boards despite my repeated offers to you to answer direct questins...

As for Your questions, they have all been answered adequately here and on other boards as well. Calling me an idiot will not do anything but prove your own sterling credentials as one.

Now If direct action day was 16th August 1946 exclusively... what ``movement`` was Jinnah supposed to call off on the 17th? The busloads of Congress workers being brought in by Patel and the lot? This is just amazing logic...

``Lahore Gazette``...

Now what newspaper is that ... did you just invent it like everything else?


Let me quote my post again because despite your attempt to make it appear to the contrary you haven`t addressed a single point.


When Gandhi`s followers were butchering Muslims left right and center ... way after Jinnah had condemned his own followers for their role in fanning violence on the 17th of August.. where was the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot ``Mahatma`` Gandhi...

Why wasn`t he telling his right hand man Patel to cool it and stop bussing in Hindus and Sikhs from other parts of India the way he was? Why didn`t he vow a fast of silence vis a vis Patel, when, according to Sumit Sarkar, Patel was gloating about Killing many more Muslims than Hindus?

Your logic doesn`t make sense. It just goes to prove that Gandhi was a machiavellian politician without any concern for human life or dignity.


Now coming to your lies:


Suhrawardy ... who was quite an independent minded politician... declared a holiday because the police itself was largely composed of Sikh and Hindu policemen who would have cracked down on the League.

Now here is some real evidence unlike your ridiculous claims:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``

Lord Wavell to Pethick Lawrence


The editorial of Blitz, the Congress Mouthpiece... writes::


Meanwhile the Congress Mouthpiece ``Blitz`` wrote this about the direct action day:

The worst enemies of the Muslim League cannot help envying the leadership of Mr Jinnah. Last week`s cataclysmic transformation of the League from the reactionary racket of the Muslim Nawabs, Noons, and Knights into a revolutionary mass organisation dedicated, by word if not be deed, to an anti-Imperialist struggle, compels us to express the sneaking national wish that a diplomat and strategist of Jinnah`s proven calibre were at the held of the Indian National Congress. There is no denying the fact that by his latest master-stroke of diplomacy Jinnah has outbid, outwitted and outmaneuvered the British and Congress alike and confounded the common national indictment that the Muslim League is a parasite of British Imperialism

Now why would a Congress Newspaper praise Jinnah if Direct Action Day was all that you are making it out to be...

The fact is that Calcutta was an exception... a well thought out plan by the Congress which sabotaged the League`s programme for temporary political gain....

It is funny how Indians here use the word `Direct Action` as if it means some kind of violence in of itself... Infact in the examples of `Direct Action` ... this website speaks of `Non-violent Direct Action` by Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr....

http://www.free-definition.com/Direct-action.html

Direct Action simply means civil disobedience... as Dr. King put it:

``Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.``


Now consider H V Hodson`s description of the League Programme:

``The working committee followed up by calling on Muslims through out India to observe 16th August as direct action day. On that Day meeting would be held all over the country to explain League`s resolution. These meetings and processions passed of- as was manifestly the Central league leaders` intention- without more than commonplace and limited disturbance with one vast and tragic exception... what happened was more than anyone could have foreseen.``

(Page 166 `The Great Divide`)


Explaining Direct Action Jinnah made it clear that the direct Action will not be in any form but in peaceful form...


``16th August is not for the purpose of resorting to Direct Action in any form or shape, Therefore I enjoin upon the Muslims to carry our the instructions and abide by them strictly and conduct themselves peacefuly and in a disciplined manner.``

Press Release Jinnah 14th August 1946


Statement from Jinnah on the 17 August 1946, next day after the Calcutta Killings:

“I condemn the violence and sympathise with the victims. It was contrary to what the working Committee (of ML) said that some people have acted against the directives (sic)”.

BTW... where does Jinnah speak of both sides ? Was that another lie you invented as you go along...


Answer these questions. Your failure to answer them proves that you don`t have a point.

Your comment about ``Wikipedia`` is rather ironic. You are so desperate to find something to celebrate that you are assuming that if some anonymous interactor claims that I have vandalised (because I pointed out that speeches are a matter of public record) that is like ``hauling`` someone over the coals. I took the matter up with Wikipedia and they had absolutely no idea about the said anonymous contributor. It must have been some loser from Chowk and we all know who that maybe.

#194 by Yasser

Thanks for bringing to my attention the absolutely baseless, unsourced and one sided article on Wikipedia that I shall now edit - by posting references...

Be careful, you might be hauled over the coals again for trying to vandalize the wesbite. Your butt is already charred beyond recognition, and may I add redemption...LOL!

#193 by Yasser

I must have answered these questions of yours several times... and you`ve always run away from debate and come back and repeated the same lies again...

Aww really? Over the past few days, it has been sufficiently established that you`re prone to running away with your tail tucked in between your legs whenever confronted with tough questions, choosing to sneak in like a thug when no one is around. Please pardon us if no one takes you seriously anymore.

Why wasn`t he telling his right hand man Patel to cool it and stop bussing in Hindus and Sikhs from other parts of India the way he was?

First of all, you haven`t been able to prove the questions I raised in my previous post, which is: what evidence do you have to prove that Hindus and Sikhs were indeed being brought into Calcutta by the busloads? And simple common sense would suggest that if that indeed was the case, it is Suhrawardy, Jinnah`s crony who is to blame for having declared a holiday on what was surely going to be a violent day. But like a true moron, you try to obfuscate the League`s culpability by instead blaming Gandhi. So tell us why would Gandhi tell Patel what to do? It was Jinnah who had issued the call to Muslim Leaguers to indulge in a killing spree, so if anything, Jinnah had to withdraw his call, like Gandhi did during Chauri Chaura. Get it, idiot?

Your logic doesn`t make sense. It just goes to prove that Gandhi was a machiavellian politician without any concern for human life or dignity.

What amazing idiocy! Jinnah issues the call to Direct Action, giving a free hand to Leaguers to indulge in wanton violence and butchery, goes into hiding, sleeping on the floors to get used a life in prison, and you expect Gandhi to show concern for human life and dignity? Moron!

Suhrawardy ... who was quite an independent minded politician... declared a holiday because the police itself was largely composed of Sikh and Hindu policemen who would have cracked down on the League.

Really? Suhrawardy told you so? Everyone knows how Jinnah was an absolute dictator in the ML, and Suhrawardy was merely a crony who wouldn`t so much as squeak without Jinnah`s approval and here were are, Goebbels himself telling us what an independent guy the fellow was..LOL!

And what makes you think we`d believe your claims of the Bengal police being composed of Hindus and Sikhs without any proof. The SGPC report on the DAD violence clearly says the Bengal police was overwhelmingly Muslim. Do you want me to paste that excerpt here?

Now why would a Congress Newspaper praise Jinnah if Direct Action Day was all that you are making it out to be...

But the Lahore Gazette, a pro-ML paper (and almost half a dozen other newspapers) clearly blames Jinnah and his ML for whipping up a communal frenzy and holds him responsible if the inflammatory statements being issued by Jinnah and his cohorts led to violence, which eventually it did.

It is funny how Indians here use the word `Direct Action` as if it means some kind of violence in of itself... Infact in the examples of `Direct Action` ... this website speaks of `Non-violent Direct Action` by Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr....

Only a fool would compare what Jinnah did to what Gandhi and Martin Luther King sought to do. But we don`t expect anything better from you, do we?

Folio...

You may go on believing that the earth is flat... but H M Seervai, Patrick French, Ainslee T Embree, SK Majumdar and Wolpert etc are not Pakistanis. They`ve all given the view of history that I am giving you... which is as different from Pakistani mythology as it is from Indian.... Infact Indian national mythology and Pakistani national mythology perfectly complement each other... So your abuse against Jinnah is baseless and indicative of Indian mythology and not the facts... Jinnah gave most of his life to the cause of India and in te end it was Gandhian bigotry that left him no choice.

As for Jinnah being ``stupid`` in portraying Gandhi`s death as a loss to humanity. Hardly... it shows that he was a great man who had respect and regard for his opponents. Neither Jinnah nor Martin Luthar King were stupid... they were just misinformed about Gandhi`s true face...



As for Gandhi`s collected works... those are his words. You can`t wiggle out of inconvenient facts.
Well now I produce for your benefit Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist Bigot Gandhi`s own words from the The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I have written is fact and it is you who is trying to cover up the real facts... what I produce below shows that Gandhi was the most racist and inhumane exclusivist bigot known to mankind... no wonder one of his own followers from the Mullah Brothers from Khilafat Movement declared later that even the worse Muslim was better than Gandhi... not because Gandhi was a Hindu... but because he was a racist casteist hindu fascist bigot....



Gandhi’s Mein Kempf

Like Adolf Hitler, Gandhi also compiled his racist manifesto when he was an accomplished barrister of age 35. Please note his extensive usage of the word “Kaffir” for black people- Citations are from Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi ... they may be checked again and again from any library in the US...


``A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir. ``
Collected works of MK Gandhi, Vol. 1, pg 150-151

``the whole objection to the Indian proceeds from sanitary grounds, the following restrictions are entirely unintelligible:
1. The Indians, like the Kaffirs, cannot become owners of fixed property.
2. The Indians must be registered, the fee being 3 pounds 10S.
3. In passing through the Republic, like the Natives, they must be able to produce passes unless they have the registration ticket.
4. They cannot travel first or second-class on the railways. They are huddled together in the same compartment with the Natives.
So far as the feeling has been expressed, it is to degrade the Indian to the position of the Kaffir. ``
Petition to Lord Ripon, CWOMG, Vol. 1, pg 199-200


``Ours is one continual struggle against a degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the Europeans, who desire to degrade us to the level of a raw Kaffir whose occupation is hunting, and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with and, then, pass his life in indolence and nakedness ``
Address in Bombay, CWOMG, Vol. 2, pg 74

``...A reference to Hunter`s `Indian Empire`, chapters 3 and 4, would show at a glance who are aborigines and who are not. The matter is put so plainly that there can be no mistake about the distinction between the two. It will be seen at once from the book that the Indians in South Africa belong to the INDO-GERMANIC STOCK or, more properly speaking, the ARYAN stock

We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race. ``
Indian Opinion 24-9-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 453

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered...
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs.
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company!
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so. Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149

CWMOG = Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi`s racism against scheduled castes and dalits

He wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

yasser,

So agree that Jinnah was a stupid to portray Gandhi`s death as a loss to humanity. Wow! To me Jinnah was a Lucifer & Gandhi was a symbol of Hope to India, even today.

Now u agree that u didnt read all the 98 volumes on Gandhi? Even if u`ve browsed them it looks like that u tried to fish some inconvenient passages to construct Gandhi as a villain who stole the thunder of Jinnah in India. Half-truths are dangerous! Btw, truth is the enemy of Pakistanis. So keep whining abt Gandhi.

Jinnah`s status in history - different from mythology called Pakistan`s official history - is dustbin. Having ur country being effed by ur own people since the Devil died, it gives satisfaction to people like u, who follow the `sour grapes` principle, in showing India in poor light. So be it. Pl keep doing that -ve portrayal. There`s no material loss to India. There`s always satisfaction to loser Jinnahites that there are pockets of poverty in India, though these pockets are dwindling at a faster rate.

Coming to Gandhi, he`s a shining star of humanity whereas Jinnah was an Muslim bigot & blood-thristy beast who was power hungry to the bone till he died. No RIP to Jinnah.

U can keep ur minority, back-alley pervert`s views. There`s always market for alternative stories, histories & theories in this world.

The PPP ex-PMs are salivating at the thought of ``democracy``

Pakistan`s hard currency reserves are at an all time high. The Paki Rupee has been stable for seven years. The economy is growing at fantastic rates. There is a construction boom in Karachi. Work is starting on Pakistan`s fourth port at Somniani. (T)

All this is happening on the Mohajir dictator`s watch and his Mohajir PM`s administration. The exiled ``democratically-elected`` PPP ex-PMs are salivating at the prospect of returning and feeding at the trough with both mouths.

#182 Mantolives {``Your point of view about Punjabi domination is a valid one... even if your way of expressing it is characteristic of someone Aamir Liaqat Hussain... the fact that Punjab- owing to its status as a ``martial country`` under the British empire was the feudal heartland really meant the end of Pakistan after the Mohajirs were sidelined``}

Manto,
That is exactly why you have a future in politics and I don`t :) What matters most is that you agree with the issue - thanks.

BTW, from what little I have observed, Aamir Liquat Hussain is a very informed and effective speaker. Now, please put that brick down.

PS: Thanks for bringing to my attention the absolutely baseless, unsourced and one sided article on Wikipedia that I shall now edit - by posting references...

Dear Harish mian,

I must have answered these questions of yours several times... and you`ve always run away from debate and come back and repeated the same lies again... before I answer your questions the millionth time.... let me repeat the QUESTION that you are AVOIDING deliberately:


When Gandhi`s followers were butchering Muslims left right and center ... way after Jinnah had condemned his own followers for their role in fanning violence on the 17th of August.. where was the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot ``Mahatma`` Gandhi...

Why wasn`t he telling his right hand man Patel to cool it and stop bussing in Hindus and Sikhs from other parts of India the way he was? Why didn`t he vow a fast of silence vis a vis Patel, when, according to Sumit Sarkar, Patel was gloating about Killing many more Muslims than Hindus?

Your logic doesn`t make sense. It just goes to prove that Gandhi was a machiavellian politician without any concern for human life or dignity.


Now coming to your lies:


Suhrawardy ... who was quite an independent minded politician... declared a holiday because the police itself was largely composed of Sikh and Hindu policemen who would have cracked down on the League.

Now here is some real evidence unlike your ridiculous claims:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``

Lord Wavell to Pethick Lawrence


The editorial of Blitz, the Congress Mouthpiece... writes::


Meanwhile the Congress Mouthpiece ``Blitz`` wrote this about the direct action day:

The worst enemies of the Muslim League cannot help envying the leadership of Mr Jinnah. Last week`s cataclysmic transformation of the League from the reactionary racket of the Muslim Nawabs, Noons, and Knights into a revolutionary mass organisation dedicated, by word if not be deed, to an anti-Imperialist struggle, compels us to express the sneaking national wish that a diplomat and strategist of Jinnah`s proven calibre were at the held of the Indian National Congress. There is no denying the fact that by his latest master-stroke of diplomacy Jinnah has outbid, outwitted and outmaneuvered the British and Congress alike and confounded the common national indictment that the Muslim League is a parasite of British Imperialism

Now why would a Congress Newspaper praise Jinnah if Direct Action Day was all that you are making it out to be...

The fact is that Calcutta was an exception... a well thought out plan by the Congress which sabotaged the League`s programme for temporary political gain....

It is funny how Indians here use the word `Direct Action` as if it means some kind of violence in of itself... Infact in the examples