Is this Pakistan’s Democratic Revolution?

Re: # 144

Shah2,

I saw a docu on BBC recently on Martin Luther. It`s really inspiring. I have my own views on Gandhi but hurling abuses on Gandhi is not warrented here but having known that desperado, I am not surprised. He`s a maniac...incorrigible twit.

What the current lot blacks feel and does is different but blacks joining seamlessly into the American life wudnt have been possible without the Civil Rights movement of Martin Luther. He was on record confessing his admiration for Gandhi.

There`s devil in everybody. Blacks are also racists in some cases. I read somewhere that negros flogged pymies into annihilation. It`s a prehistoric thing......

#142, #143 Folio

Yaar, that is a most foolish thing to say about Qadianis - it is clearly the wrong thing to do when one bases one`s treatment of a whole group on the aberrant behavior of a few, in this case just one individual - who is clearly abnormal.

However, that individual DOES make for an interesting case study on what the need to ``justify`` oneself in a society which systematically discriminates against one`s kind affects the judgement and behavior of individuals, who end up pretending to beat their chests louder than the next guy - while negating the reality!

Very comical it would be considered - if it did not present such a sad spectacle!

Re: # 146

BJ,

For a hatemonger that`s the `only` way to eply. No.2. My opinions or not the Q-guys` orifices are effed red in Pureland. That`s (effing) is very important though the twit eats loads of J-feces from time to time.

#122 by Salim_Chauhan on

Unlike the PPPs, I am a realist and don`t believe in self-delusion (or throwing bricks for that matter). Thanks.

Yaar Salim, folks like you are the best hope for Pakistan. While I may not support your advocacy of reunification, not the least because it makes Pakis suspicious about India`s motives and also because it is impractical, I admire you for your courage in espousing your idea in the face of such hostility. You are very unlike those who are out to rewrite history to suit their prejudices :-)

#139 by HisExcellency

When the doctors decide to cut the patient`s foot in order to save his legs and hips. HAHA.

And you can rest assured the doctor won`t be Pakistan. Heck, Pakistan cannot remove fleas from its own back, having to depend on American Hellfires..LOL!

harish_hyd #148 {``Yaar Salim, folks like you are the best hope for Pakistan. While I may not support your advocacy of reunification, not the least because it makes Pakis suspicious about India`s motives and also because it is impractical, I admire you for your courage in espousing your idea in the face of such hostility.``}

Harry Bhai,
Thank you for your encouraging and kind remarks. I sincerely believe that the salvation of Pakistan lies not in hating India, blaming others for its misfortunes, or pretending that the real problems afflicting our nation do not exist. I think that self-delusion has a pernicious effect in treating diseases. Only when we are able to identify our real problems honestly can we find solutions that will directly assist in reversing our disastrous course. Secularism, true democracy, logic, rule of law, compassion, fairness, and sheer common sense must become part of our fabric. The people of Pakistan are a resilient people - all we need is a new prescription for our blurred vision. I will keep quiet about reunification, because sometimes the most obvious solution is the least popular. Thanks again.

Waqt pe gadhey ko baap maanna jaayez hai - Message to Mohajirs

Dear Urdu-speaking Mohajirs,

I have no political ambitions in Pakistan and certainly not in Lahore. You have noticed the constant altercation between various Pakistani Punjaibis and me. My main interest in retaliating forcefully against these bigots, racists, and supremacists is to expose them in your eyes.

In real life, most of you have probably suffered from discrimination at the hands of these selfish people in matters of education, employment, and commerce. What you have probably not contemplated is the level of their hatred, prejudice, and profanity. Well, here on Chowk, in the safety of anonymity, these people have the opportunity to express their true feelings without consequence. You have read cruel and lewd racist, ethnic, and linguistic insults from Ali1 and Atif2. You have witnessed the murderous intentions and hateful expressions of Punjaibi supremacy from Sobia and Khamkhwa. Even Manto, Ally, and Aashee have used thinly-disguised methods of insulting those whose native language is Urdu and whose ancestors came from Hindustan.

But, the worst offender and most hateful representative of Punjaibi behavior is Tahmed32. This hypocrite has openly and vehemently opposed the repatriation of Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. He, among other Pakistani Punjaibis, uses the term ``Bihari`` as a racist and condescending means to lump all Urdu-speakers together and justify discrimination and injustice against us.

The point of my message is that we should open our eyes, be alert, keep our powder dry, and not let these hatemongers reenact their murderous acts against our poor, defenseless people. Don`t forget that it was the mainly Pakistani Punjaibi-dominated army that massacred many Pakistanis in East Pakistan. It was this same Pakistani-Punjaibi dominated army that shamelessly surrendered in droves and the cowards were escorted to safety in India by their fellow Punjabis, mostly brave and compassionate Sikhs, of the Indian army.

The Pakistani Punjaibis drove the majority Bengalis out of Pakistan. They are looting the resources and killing the people of Baluchistan. They have killed in Karachi and continue to kill Pakistanis in NWFP. They have alienated the Kashmiris, especially the Gilgitis and Baltistanis. Even the Saraikis, who live in southern Punjaib, want to throw off their yoke.

Please understand the people you are up against. Let us not be fooled by them to make common cause with them against our fellow Pakistanis who suffer from their oppression. Please do not let them channel our frustration and anger against India, where many of our dear relatives live. India has never done anything to harm us intentionally - the devastating bombing of Karachi in `71 was not directly directed against us.

I agree that not all Pakistani Punjabis are evil. Yes, there are quite a few who see the stupidity and folly in their fellow Punjaibis` insatiable thirst for power and loot. Unfortunately, the most hateful and prejudiced Punjaibis seem to be in the majority and are certainly much more vocal here on Chowk.

Let us be united. Let us help each other. Let us develop a secular, democratic, and fair environment in the areas where we dominate and let`s get along with everyone - until our own freedoms, lives, and properties are threatened by these evil persecutors.

As the Urdu saying goes - ``Waqt pe gadhey ko baap maanna jaayez hai``

Tahmed,
Yes, your bigotry and racism against Mohajirs is on record - right here on Chowk. As for lying, you stupid evil old man, you keep on accusing my family of looting departing Hindus. Produce one shred of evidence of that, you mean racist. :@

My family`s comfort and well-being is the result of my Turkish great grandfather’s hard work and generosity. He never, not once, came to Pakistan, you lying fool.

Remember what Islam teaches us about lying. If you don`t repent, you will find yourself sharing the oven next to Urstruly in HELL. :)

Aww... what do I see here... Harish mian desperately trying to kiss up to Salim Chauhan after having a can of whoopass opened on his metaphorical rearend day in and day out...

Salim yaar... throw him another bone now. He has earned it.

Re: # 142

Folio...

I didn`t want to write about Gandhi the greatest fraud in human history on this very important thread but you`ve left me no choice.... hence I have to respond. No amount of abuse against Ahmadis will force me to give up the truth... no matter you do.

Nothing you`ve written is proved that Gandhi was not a racist casteist hindu fascist bigot... if Dr. Martin Luthar King Jr. was a great man but if he was fooled... that just shows he was a human being... even Jinnah wrote in a telegram to Devdas Gandhi (quoted in my ilog) in the aftermath of Gandhi`s death that Gandhi`s death was a ``loss to humanity`` ....

But I reject both Martin Luthar King`s view and Jinnah`s view on this issue... despite my great respect for both these men who stood head and shoulders above the racist casteist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi...

Here is the US Congressional Record on this issue which has finally begun to right the wrongs :

GANDHI: BEHIND THE MASK OF DIVINITY
(Extensions of Remarks - January 09, 2007)


HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES


Mr. TOWNS. Madam Speaker, I have recently encountered a book entitled Gandhi : Behind the Mask of Divinity , which sheds new light on the founder of India. The author, Colonel G. B. Singh, USA, portrays Mohandas Gandhi as a person who was more interested in advancing his own group than in the advancement of all people. Using Gandhi`s own words, Colonel Singh portrays a very different Gandhi than you and I have been told about.

Colonel Singh argues that the Gandhi we have been told about isn`t the real Gandhi . He writes that he hopes that his book will stimulate discussion and provoke people to think about who Mohandas Gandhi really was. Since Gandhi is considered the father of the Indian nation, understanding his character is essential to understanding India.

Colonel Singh`s book is definitely controversial, but it is an important contribution to a full understanding of this important historical character.

Madam Speaker, there is an excerpt from the book`s introduction on the back cover, which has been reproduced, and I would like to introduce that two-paragraph excerpt into the Record at this time to give a flavor of the book and encourage people to broaden their perspective on Gandhi .

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FROM THE INTRODUCTION TO GANDHI : BEHIND THE MASK OF DIVINITY
(By G.B. Singh)


Over the years I have discussed Gandhi with many Americans, both formally and informally. ..... What continues to irk me is the amount of Gandhi ``propaganda material`` that has flooded our libraries and bookstores. For an unsuspecting Westerner, the reading of Gandhi as he is portrayed on these shelves can bring about the intended result. That is understandable. This book is an attempt to close the gap between the popularized Gandhi and the historical Gandhi . This book will incite readers to be more open-minded and to seek to validate the ``truths`` presented. My hope is that it will provoke honest, healthy, and open dialogue and foster more scrutiny about him.....

Years of dedicated research on Gandhi convinced me that our hero was fundamentally a racist. In this book, I present the facts. The evidence presented here is not a matter of speculation or distorted interpretation. Much of the irrefutable evidence lay buried beneath a mountain of Gandhi`s own writings--in his own words, which I have uncovered--comments that will be difficult to dispute once they are read. In this book you will read the evidence in its entirety. My primary intention is to untangle the web that Gandhi weaved--and his followers are still weaving--for many years. Only through a methodical probing can we expose Gandhi`s campaign of deception: the lies, the propaganda, the misinformation, the half-truths, and the effort to hide behind religion. Where Gandhi left off, his followers have picked up, and they continue their own sophisticated campaigns, both in India and abroad. The book should not be looked upon as another Gandhi biography. Rather, it should provide a standard by which to weigh the Gandhi literature for accuracy and objectivity. Also, this book, though narrowly focused, should stand as a guide alerting us to how thoroughly the Gandhi propagandists and others have succeeded in deceiving us.

RACISM OF INDIAN FOUNDER EXPOSED
(Extensions of Remarks - December 13, 2005)

HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2005


Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Speaker, the unveiling of a statue of Mohandas K. Gandhi in Johannesburg, South Africa, set off a discussion about the anti-black racism of the founder of India.

When the eight-foot high Gandhi statue was unveiled, portraying him as a young human-rights lawyer, many leaders attacked Gandhi`s anti-black statements. “Gandhi had no love for Africans,`` said one letter in The Citizen, a South African newspaper. “To him, Africans were no better than the `Untouchables` of India.``

As you may know, Mr. Speaker, the dark-skinned aborigines of the subcontinent, known as Dalits or “Untouchables,`` occupy the lowest rung on the ladder of India`s rigid and racist caste system. The caste system exists to protect the privileged position of the Brahmins, the top caste. Although it was officially banned by India`s constitution in 1950, it is still strictly practiced in Hindu India.

Others have pointed out that Gandhi ignored the suffering of black people during the colonial occupation of South Africa. When he was arrested and forced to share a cell with black prisoners, he wrote that they were “only one degree removed from the animal.`` In other words, Mr. Speaker, he described blacks as less than human. We condemn anyone who says this in our country, such as the Ku Klux Klan and others, as we should. Why is Gandhi venerated for such statements?

In addition, G.B. Singh, a Gandhi biographer, has looked through many pictures of him and never seen one single black person. Gandhi also attacked white Europeans.

Gandhi is honored as the founder of India. These statements and attitudes reveal the racist underpinning behind the secular, democratic facade of India. It explains a worldview that permits a Dalit constable to be stoned to death for entering the temple on a rainy day, that allows the murders of over 300,000 Christians in Nagaland, over 250,000 Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan, over 90,000 Muslims in Kashmir, tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims elsewhere in the country, including Graham Staines and his two young sons, and tens of thousands of Assamese, Bodos, Dalits, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minorities. It explains why the pro-Fascist, Hindu militant RSS is a powerful organization in India, in control of one of its two major political parties.

India must abandon its racist attitudes and its exploitation of minorities. It must allow the enjoyment of full human rights by everyone. Until it does so, we should stop our aid and trade with India. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the essence of democracy is the right to self-determination. India must allow self-determination for Kashmir, as it promised the United Nations in 1948, in Punjab, Khalistan, in Nagaland, and wherever the people seek to free themselves from the boot of Indian oppression. We should put this Congress on record in support of self-determination for the people of the subcontinent in the form of a free and fair plebiscite on the question of independence. Khalistan declared its independence on October 7, 1987. The people have never been allowed to have a simple, democratic vote on the matter. Instead, India continues to oppress the people there with over half a million troops.

Mr. Speaker, reporter Rory Carroll of The Guardian wrote an excellent article on the controversy about the Gandhi statue. I would like to place it in the Record at this time.

---

[The Guardian, Friday Oct. 17, 2003]

GANDHI BRANDED RACIST
AS JOHANNESBURG HONOURS FREEDOM FIGHTER
(By Rory Carroll)

It was supposed to honour his resistance to racism in South Africa, but a new statue of Mahatma Gandhi in Johannesburg has triggered a row over his alleged contempt for black people. The 2.5 metre high (8ft) bronze statue depicting Gandhi as a dashing young human rights lawyer has been welcomed by Nelson Mandela, among others, for recognising the Indian who launched the fight against white minority rule at the turn of the last century.

But critics have attacked the gesture for overlooking racist statements attributed to Gandhi, which suggest he viewed black people as lazy savages who were barely human.

Newspapers continue to publish letters from indignant readers: “Gandhi had no love for Africans. To [him], Africans were no better than the `Untouchables` of India,`` said a correspondent to The Citizen.

Others are harsher, claiming the civil rights icon “hated`` black people and ignored their suffering at the hands of colonial masters while championing the cause of Indians.

Unveiled this month, the statue stands in Gandhi Square in central Johannesburg, not far from the office from which he worked during some of his 21 years in South Africa.

The British-trained barrister was supposed to have been on a brief visit in 1893 to represent an Indian company in a legal action, but he stayed to fight racist laws after a conductor kicked him off a train for sitting in a first-class compartment reserved for whites.

Outraged, he started defending Indians charged with failing to register for passes and other political offences, founded a newspaper, and formed South Africa`s first organised political resistance movement. His tactics of mobilising people for passive resistance and mass protest inspired black people to organise and some historians credit Gandhi as the progenitor of the African National Congress, which formed in 1912, two years before he returned to India to fight British colonial rule.

However, the new statue has prompted bitter recollections about some of Gandhi`s writings.

Forced to share a cell with black people, he wrote: “Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves.``

He was quoted at a meeting in Bombay in 1896 saying that Europeans sought to degrade Indians to the level of the “raw kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness``.

The Johannesburg daily This Day said GB Singh, the author of a critical book about Gandhi, had sifted through photos of Gandhi in South Africa and found not one black person in his vicinity.

The Indian embassy in Pretoria declined to comment, as it prepared for President Thabo Mbeki`s visit to India.

Khulekani Ntshangase, a spokesman for the ANC Youth League, defended Gandhi, saying the critics missed the bigger picture of his immense contribution to the liberation struggle.

Gandhi`s offending comments were made early in his life when he was influenced by Indians working on the sugar plantations and did not get on with the black people of modern-day KwaZulu-Natal province, said Mr. Ntshangase.

“Later he got more enlightened.``

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I have record of Gandhi`s own words... he was a racist bigot without shame. An exclusivist fascist who believed in caste system to the bone... despite what King mistakenly thought later.

Those of you who abuse me and accuse me of ``rewriting history`` have never been able to prove that what I have written about Gandhi is false.... it is all true and you know it which is why you abuse me and make claims that have nothing to do the facts but more with your own prejudices and inability to look at the facts impartially...

Correction:

Nothing what you`ve said *has* ....

Yaar BJ... It would be better you accepted the facts instead of looking for alternative explanations ...

YLH

Have you been able to do something about that tombstone on Prof. Abdus Salam`s grave? I mean, at least get it changed to ``Pakistan`s first Nobel Laureate`` or something. Your community owes that much to him, no?

Re: # 151 Salim

Yaar, baap kehna ek cheez hai aur baap maanna doosri.

Anyways, perhaps your emotions are blurring your judgement a little bit. What do you say? There must have been something about mohajirs and others that allowed Punjabi domination, as you say.

#154 Manto Lives (and he is not kidding!)

Ama Manto, you make a mistake by quoting this guy Towns who appears to have a solid track record of anti-India rhetoric which (because of unknown reasons) gets repeatedly quoted by the Khalistanis in the USA.

I do not know the reason for the honorable Congressman’s closeness (on such issues) with the Khalistanis – nor do I care to guess (or perhaps dare to guess)! :)

However, in the excerpt that you post, I see a silver lining! (in fact, one can read the original Khalistani posting here)

Note the following:

(1) How short the Congressman’s own introduction to that “book” is.

(2) How he carefully attributes that the views belong to that writer Singh and he is only trying for people to “broaden” their perspective.

Not much in itself, of course – unless one compares this “moderate” text to some of his vituperative remarks from the past – for example, compare it with his speech of about a year earlier on December 13, 2005, where he said the following words while still talking of Gandhiji (using the “provocative” title RACISM OF INDIAN FOUNDER EXPOSED) …

“…India must abandon its racist attitudes and its exploitation of minorities. It must allow the enjoyment of full human rights by everyone. Until it does so, we should stop our aid and trade with India….”

O what a difference a year makes – just note the toning down of his positions.

I wonder what happened during that one year?!

Now, other than those occasional speeches and the slipping-in of those pages into those massive records, what else has the honorable Congressman been doing on that issue?! Has he been making public speeches about it? To what audiences?! At what fund-raisers?! Do let us know, mian Manto!

I certainly do not find any mention of the material that you bring up on his web site! Why not? If he considers it a fine accomplishment – shouldn’t he try to trumpet it – like you do?! Just imagine what a “catch” that would be! Why try to merely slip in stuff when nobody is watching and then not even mention it?!

Has he tried to recruit any additional Congressmen to this “cause”? If he truly believes in this stuff, well, why does not he?

I really wonder why.

Best wishes to you and your Mrs.! It is not easy being a minority ANYWHERE! :(

PS: Yaar Manto, you seem to like those Khalistani sources and quote stuff just like they do – you are not friends with individual Khalistanis by any chance?! (If you are, don’t tell me! I would be scared of that lot!) :)

#154 by Mantolives on March 24, 2007 10:15am PT
Re: # 142

Yasser,

Nobody believes here that you have monopoly over objectivity.

On the contrary I am (NOT) amazed at ur shallowness in analysing the history of Indian leaders. We all knew, in fact the whole world knows how fixed are ur blinkers! Take them off!

The material given is not new & I remember to have smashed it into smithereens once. Let me attempt it again albeit briefly.

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even Jinnah wrote in a telegram to Devdas Gandhi (quoted in my ilog) in the aftermath of Gandhi`s death that Gandhi`s death was a ``loss to humanity`` ....

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If Jinnah`s assesment on Gandhi`s death is true then u MUST be a moron to dispute the fact of Gandhi`s persona.

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If Gandhi`s is a racist. What is Jinnah? Mega-racist who categorised people as superior and inferior? Btw, u guyz repeat this (Indians are dark skinned, macacas etc., ) on UP on and on??

If Gandhi`s casteist, was Jinnah wan`t a super casteist who manipulated Muslim League as his pocketborough obviosluy by playing this exclusivist mindset which can only be called mad casteism. If castesim is bad then religious communalism is a super monster and Jinnah was it`s advocate. So Jinnah is rogue par excellence.

If Ganshi is Hindu fascist wasn`t Jinnah`s a Muslim fascist? In fact Jinnah was more than that. He was blood-thirsty Muslim fascist.

1. The speech of US lawmaker in the US Congress doesnt give as the legitimate opinion of the US govt. Like Jinnah u too do name-dropping which per se doesnt connote anything substantial. The speech of the US lawmaker - like ur rants - is an opinion.

2. Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther were all inspired by Gandhi and they admit it all the time.

As for ur opinion.....one minute, let me fart......yeah......it`s an opinion.

Want some new literature to make all of believe that Ganshi was a Hindu fascist and Jinnah`s not a Muslim fascist.