Girls Gone Wild
Shandana Minhas April 2, 2007
#1644 Posted by AbuHafs on May 6, 2007 12:32:30 pm
ok all,
Lal Masjid new site has been launched. You can visit it on lalmasjid.com. We also have forum there for you to express your views and ask questions.
Persons intersted in being moderators of the fourms can contact me , and send me the private message once they logged in to the forum. I am the admin of the forum.
Fe amanillah
Lal Masjid new site has been launched. You can visit it on lalmasjid.com. We also have forum there for you to express your views and ask questions.
Persons intersted in being moderators of the fourms can contact me , and send me the private message once they logged in to the forum. I am the admin of the forum.
Fe amanillah
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#1643 Posted by teshah on April 18, 2007 4:14:06 pm
Re: # 1641
hasanmahmood
Thank you dear for your `bharpoor` response to my post, but excuse me it does not provide answer to the question raised by me: As to why of all the world the sex, which is in fact only a cultural issue, has (excepting pederasty by the Mullah) come to occupy a central and focal point in the so called `Islamc morality`? I think the present day hypocritical sex behaviour of the Muslims, especially of the paky brand, is one of the major road blocks in their progress.
I agree with you that the sex by sale (ismat faroshy) is not considered to be a good thing ( though indulged in freely for various reasons), but why not the sale of religion (deen faroshy) giving rise to the mullahism is considered to be a detestable occupation, I wonder?
Again, the clientele of the pros though includes even the elite of the society who indulge in it only as `tamaash beeny` the majority of the clients are the common people suffering from sex-starvation due apparently to the taboos imposed on the sex by the mullah who himself allegedly uses his students just as wives. A question arises: Why the clientele whose demand gives rise to the prostitution are not condemned (rather they are called `saaoos` or `shurrafaa) like the sex-workers (called `kanjars) who provide the sevice to earn their livelihood?
All this boils down again to the question: why the muslims today are extremely sex-phobic?
hasanmahmood
Thank you dear for your `bharpoor` response to my post, but excuse me it does not provide answer to the question raised by me: As to why of all the world the sex, which is in fact only a cultural issue, has (excepting pederasty by the Mullah) come to occupy a central and focal point in the so called `Islamc morality`? I think the present day hypocritical sex behaviour of the Muslims, especially of the paky brand, is one of the major road blocks in their progress.
I agree with you that the sex by sale (ismat faroshy) is not considered to be a good thing ( though indulged in freely for various reasons), but why not the sale of religion (deen faroshy) giving rise to the mullahism is considered to be a detestable occupation, I wonder?
Again, the clientele of the pros though includes even the elite of the society who indulge in it only as `tamaash beeny` the majority of the clients are the common people suffering from sex-starvation due apparently to the taboos imposed on the sex by the mullah who himself allegedly uses his students just as wives. A question arises: Why the clientele whose demand gives rise to the prostitution are not condemned (rather they are called `saaoos` or `shurrafaa) like the sex-workers (called `kanjars) who provide the sevice to earn their livelihood?
All this boils down again to the question: why the muslims today are extremely sex-phobic?
#1642 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 18, 2007 10:40:13 am
Zeena, yes the mullahs were 5% before but not anymore. Yes feudalism and abject poverty is to be blamed for this - but many more people are now converting to fundamentalistic idea of Islam(as I say it). Most of the people are frustrated and out of work or are living in bad conditions. Their only escape is to join the mullahs where they feel like they belong because these liberal elites of Pakistan and the politicians never think about them. They are provided with stipend, food, clothing, and living. I went back to Pakistan and saw young people getting more and more radical views because they have no one to voice their concerns to. These people are frustrated and are finding ways to get out of the mess that Pakistan has become.
You are right that Mullahs are not our only problem but they are still a problem nonetheless. You said economy has to be better but the main reason why our economy was bad in the first place was because of Benazir, Nawaz, and these mullahs. Other countries were scared to invest in Pakistan because of these people. So mullahs were definitely obne of the reason why Pakistan came close to bankruptcy. Unlike some people I do think Musharaf has been excellent for this economy. No matter what the reson might be I dont care about him sacking the CJ(Who IS corrupt - by the way) or kidnapping terrorists without trials as long as Pakistan`s economy is doing what it is doing. Example: Because of the situation of Wana, Waziristan, and yes Islamabad lal masjid, Pakistan tourism took a major hit when most of the Japenese coming here refused to come. A small story but these small things become big in world`s eyes. That is why I think mullahs should be stopped. I do believe that if we put every mullah and mullah-minded dari-wallas and burqa-walis in jail for 5 days, Pakistan will become a much better place.
You are right that Mullahs are not our only problem but they are still a problem nonetheless. You said economy has to be better but the main reason why our economy was bad in the first place was because of Benazir, Nawaz, and these mullahs. Other countries were scared to invest in Pakistan because of these people. So mullahs were definitely obne of the reason why Pakistan came close to bankruptcy. Unlike some people I do think Musharaf has been excellent for this economy. No matter what the reson might be I dont care about him sacking the CJ(Who IS corrupt - by the way) or kidnapping terrorists without trials as long as Pakistan`s economy is doing what it is doing. Example: Because of the situation of Wana, Waziristan, and yes Islamabad lal masjid, Pakistan tourism took a major hit when most of the Japenese coming here refused to come. A small story but these small things become big in world`s eyes. That is why I think mullahs should be stopped. I do believe that if we put every mullah and mullah-minded dari-wallas and burqa-walis in jail for 5 days, Pakistan will become a much better place.
#1641 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 18, 2007 10:28:24 am
teshah,
it is the same thing as asking the mullahs why they dont voice their concern about poverty, corruption, illegal confinements, bribery, unhygienic conditions, rising cost of living, people killing themselves in the name of religion, karo-kari, marriage to Quran, feudalism etc. For mullahs the most imporatnt thing is to keep people away from sex. Having said that, I absolutely do not agree with prostitution. Yes it is the oldest profession in the world, but it has no place in any society. Even in the so-clled liberal America most of the states have outlawed prostitution. But, whethere these ladies were prostitutes or not, the fault also lies with the government for promoting it. Like I said before if Sharif brothers have a history of visiting brothels with Shabaz getting married to a prostitute (who all of a sudden has become a very respected elite lady) and Bhutto got married to an Iranian prositute, and most of your esteemed politicians visit these places, and most of your television dramas show these prostitutes as a part of every story then what do you eexpect. These hafza girls did a terrible thing. But these girls were never told about the other ills of the society. These same girls probably live in a one room house in some village where they do not have the right to speak their minds. They have no knowledge of the outside world. All of a sudden they are getting their voices heard. Now they are using it wrongfully out of frustration. They are bing manipulated by these mullahs who have no agenda other than to keep people scared; and the best thing for that is SEX.
Also, only Jahil mullahs dont consider talking about sex tabboo. Most of the people are raised that way. For example: when I was growing up everyone told me that alcohol was haram. I asked why and they said that it is written in Quran. So I accepted it. When I grew up I read the Quran and did not ffind alcohol to be haram in all the 3 instances it was mentioned. So I asked again. This time they said it is haram because Huzoor mentioned it in the last khutba. So I asked them how could Huzoor make something haraam when Allah did not make it that way. They had no answer for that. So finally I read the last khutba and nowhere was any mention of alcohol. So I asked again and nobody had an answer. I am not debating whether alcohol is haram or not and I might be completely wrong and I in no way am advocating drinking alcohol but I am just using it as an example to show you how people in Pakistan are raised with certain notions and ideas which are engraved in everyone`s mind by the mullahs. I have seen people listening and believing these mullahs who have never tried to read and understand Quran themselves. In any case, I think the only way people of pakistan are going to be saved is by education (let them read and understand Quran on their own). Hopefully one day it will happen.
it is the same thing as asking the mullahs why they dont voice their concern about poverty, corruption, illegal confinements, bribery, unhygienic conditions, rising cost of living, people killing themselves in the name of religion, karo-kari, marriage to Quran, feudalism etc. For mullahs the most imporatnt thing is to keep people away from sex. Having said that, I absolutely do not agree with prostitution. Yes it is the oldest profession in the world, but it has no place in any society. Even in the so-clled liberal America most of the states have outlawed prostitution. But, whethere these ladies were prostitutes or not, the fault also lies with the government for promoting it. Like I said before if Sharif brothers have a history of visiting brothels with Shabaz getting married to a prostitute (who all of a sudden has become a very respected elite lady) and Bhutto got married to an Iranian prositute, and most of your esteemed politicians visit these places, and most of your television dramas show these prostitutes as a part of every story then what do you eexpect. These hafza girls did a terrible thing. But these girls were never told about the other ills of the society. These same girls probably live in a one room house in some village where they do not have the right to speak their minds. They have no knowledge of the outside world. All of a sudden they are getting their voices heard. Now they are using it wrongfully out of frustration. They are bing manipulated by these mullahs who have no agenda other than to keep people scared; and the best thing for that is SEX.
Also, only Jahil mullahs dont consider talking about sex tabboo. Most of the people are raised that way. For example: when I was growing up everyone told me that alcohol was haram. I asked why and they said that it is written in Quran. So I accepted it. When I grew up I read the Quran and did not ffind alcohol to be haram in all the 3 instances it was mentioned. So I asked again. This time they said it is haram because Huzoor mentioned it in the last khutba. So I asked them how could Huzoor make something haraam when Allah did not make it that way. They had no answer for that. So finally I read the last khutba and nowhere was any mention of alcohol. So I asked again and nobody had an answer. I am not debating whether alcohol is haram or not and I might be completely wrong and I in no way am advocating drinking alcohol but I am just using it as an example to show you how people in Pakistan are raised with certain notions and ideas which are engraved in everyone`s mind by the mullahs. I have seen people listening and believing these mullahs who have never tried to read and understand Quran themselves. In any case, I think the only way people of pakistan are going to be saved is by education (let them read and understand Quran on their own). Hopefully one day it will happen.
#1640 Posted by Zeena on April 17, 2007 10:17:45 pm
hasanmahmood sahib
Mullahs are only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?
Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?
They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.
They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?
And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............
Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....
Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No
There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......
Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......
And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................
It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........
Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............
So, just think about all this .......................
Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is useing someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........
And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......
Mullahs are only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?
Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?
They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.
They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?
And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............
Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....
Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No
There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......
Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......
And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................
It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........
Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............
So, just think about all this .......................
Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is useing someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........
And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......
#1639 Posted by Zeena on April 17, 2007 9:22:39 pm
#1637 hasanmahmood sahib
Well, yes I am ignored by 11 people. It does not make any difference to me at all.
But, let me clear one thing here.
On chowk I know majority of interactors on un plugged have at least one dozen different (IDs)or nicks. And, that`s the funny and sad part, too.
Sometimes, one id of the same person behaves like your friend and other ids put you on ignore or other ids start abusing you.
That`s exactly what happened to me as well.
Suppose I have two ids, then one id can put you on ignore and other id will act like your friend.
This is crazy, crazy, crazy world..............LOL....
Well, yes I am ignored by 11 people. It does not make any difference to me at all.
But, let me clear one thing here.
On chowk I know majority of interactors on un plugged have at least one dozen different (IDs)or nicks. And, that`s the funny and sad part, too.
Sometimes, one id of the same person behaves like your friend and other ids put you on ignore or other ids start abusing you.
That`s exactly what happened to me as well.
Suppose I have two ids, then one id can put you on ignore and other id will act like your friend.
This is crazy, crazy, crazy world..............LOL....
#1638 Posted by teshah on April 17, 2007 5:29:33 pm
Zeena, Zahraj, Hassanmahmood
I wonder why all Jaahilia Muslims are sex-phobic as their `moral` indignation is confined to sex alone. They see nothing immoral in storming a house and abducting four living beings ( including one child) only because they are alleged to have used a little tissue of their bodies to earn their livelihood when (in Urdu) ``Log to yazdaan ko bech dete hein matlab nikalne ke lie``.
Is it because the Muslims are the most sex-starved people of the world today?
I wonder why all Jaahilia Muslims are sex-phobic as their `moral` indignation is confined to sex alone. They see nothing immoral in storming a house and abducting four living beings ( including one child) only because they are alleged to have used a little tissue of their bodies to earn their livelihood when (in Urdu) ``Log to yazdaan ko bech dete hein matlab nikalne ke lie``.
Is it because the Muslims are the most sex-starved people of the world today?
#1637 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 17, 2007 11:00:30 am
Zeena, thanks for the appreciation. Lol Just wanted to let you know that I was extremely surprised to see that you have been ignored by 11 people.
Come on people this is a website for discussion so why ignore anyone. There are always heated arguments everywhere even in a family and I would like to consider Chowk sort of a family (zeemax being the second cousin who even though nobody likes has to be accepted and invited in :))
Zahra, I am unable to view the video currently but will definitely take a look at it. Thank you. I do agree that Pakistan is rapidly becoming an unbearable state when it comes to religious tolerance. In a global world like todays Pakistan will be left behind if it does not change its ways quickly.
Come on people this is a website for discussion so why ignore anyone. There are always heated arguments everywhere even in a family and I would like to consider Chowk sort of a family (zeemax being the second cousin who even though nobody likes has to be accepted and invited in :))
Zahra, I am unable to view the video currently but will definitely take a look at it. Thank you. I do agree that Pakistan is rapidly becoming an unbearable state when it comes to religious tolerance. In a global world like todays Pakistan will be left behind if it does not change its ways quickly.
#1636 Posted by Zeena on April 17, 2007 9:44:11 am
I am proud to be Muslim and Pakistani. There is nothing wrong to be a Muslim as long as you do not impose your extremist views on others.
In this case , Hifsa brave girls did a very courageous action. But, the PseduoMullahs crossed their limits and started burning music stores and threatening ...........
I believe that these pseudoMullahs were being used by Politicians.
MQM, if, is sincere in it`s actions then MQM should start rallies against the whole corrupt system which is against 80%rural Pakistanis.
I will see how much MQM is sincere in it`s slogans and in it`s rallies?
Let`s see.............Only time will tell.
In this case , Hifsa brave girls did a very courageous action. But, the PseduoMullahs crossed their limits and started burning music stores and threatening ...........
I believe that these pseudoMullahs were being used by Politicians.
MQM, if, is sincere in it`s actions then MQM should start rallies against the whole corrupt system which is against 80%rural Pakistanis.
I will see how much MQM is sincere in it`s slogans and in it`s rallies?
Let`s see.............Only time will tell.
#1635 Posted by MantoLives on April 17, 2007 6:50:14 am
I think it is brilliant that both Turkey and Pakistan have had rallies with similar objectives resisting Islamisation ... starting from their respective founding fathers` mausoleums ... Ataturk`s Mausoleum in Ankara and Jinnah`s Mausoleum in Karachi.
It shows that we are ready to liberate Islam and Muslims from the clutches of Islamo-fascists...
#1634 Posted by Zeena on April 16, 2007 1:12:55 pm
hasanmahmood sahib
Thank you very much for your really impressive posts. I never knew before that MQM is based on such a unique values. Yes, as for MQM is, you opened m,y eyes.
atleast, now I have hope that Pakistan has one such party MQM which is based on values, not just corrupt feudalism......Bravo.
As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote covservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticised...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...
In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....
To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.
Thank you very much for your really impressive posts. I never knew before that MQM is based on such a unique values. Yes, as for MQM is, you opened m,y eyes.
atleast, now I have hope that Pakistan has one such party MQM which is based on values, not just corrupt feudalism......Bravo.
As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote covservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticised...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...
In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....
To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.
#1633 Posted by ZahraJ on April 16, 2007 12:20:04 pm
Re: # 1632
Hassan - Folio had posted a BBC Urdu Youtube link of Ms. Shamim and her family. I had not come across that before. I had a very different impression of this episode till I watched and listened to the BBC Report. It certainly did not give an impression that she was running any illegal business.
I was just having lunch with a few friends the other day, one was an attorney who happens to have a Pakistani background. He was extremely concerned on the civil liberties in the Pakistani society. According to him, if you are watching a movie in your home in Pakistan, anyone can walk in and tell you that it`s inappropriate to watch a Hollywood movie since it does not agree with thier view on life. In the end, he made a remark that it`s extremely embarassing to have anything to do with Pakistan in current day and age. Those of us who come from that background have nothing left to take pride in. On an individual level, things are different, but on a broad scale, the world has no respect for lawless countries like Pakistan. Lastly, both Indians and Bangladeshis do not nurture similar sentiments towards the country of their origin. That`s a huge difference.
Something to think about.
Hassan - Folio had posted a BBC Urdu Youtube link of Ms. Shamim and her family. I had not come across that before. I had a very different impression of this episode till I watched and listened to the BBC Report. It certainly did not give an impression that she was running any illegal business.
I was just having lunch with a few friends the other day, one was an attorney who happens to have a Pakistani background. He was extremely concerned on the civil liberties in the Pakistani society. According to him, if you are watching a movie in your home in Pakistan, anyone can walk in and tell you that it`s inappropriate to watch a Hollywood movie since it does not agree with thier view on life. In the end, he made a remark that it`s extremely embarassing to have anything to do with Pakistan in current day and age. Those of us who come from that background have nothing left to take pride in. On an individual level, things are different, but on a broad scale, the world has no respect for lawless countries like Pakistan. Lastly, both Indians and Bangladeshis do not nurture similar sentiments towards the country of their origin. That`s a huge difference.
Something to think about.
#1632 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 16, 2007 10:48:15 am
And Zeena, I do blame the police the and the political big-wigs for allowing this madam to do what she used to do. I look at the dramas nowadays where one girl is always a prostitute and wonder why every story has to revolve around this subject. Now I know these women are actually living in respected societies. But it is only because the government has turned a blind eye towards them. However instead of kidnapping them there should be other means to counter it. One way is to organize a mahalla group to give warnings and finally taking action (not kidnapping but legal actionor ostracizing them etc. I have seen it work wonders. ). Secondly, I understand that the Madam was wrong. But then what about the library occupation because the givernment was razing the illegal structures? Khair, hopefully this matter will be resolved soon.
#1631 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 16, 2007 10:42:16 am
Zeena,
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don`t agree with. ~Eleanor Holmes Norton
It has been a pleasure to disagree with you. Just one more thing. You asked
``If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?``
Despite me not liking Altaf Hussain, I do like what MQM has to say, especially about the feudal system and Woman`s Protection bill. In order to understand what MQM is we have to see how it evolved. MQM was formed by Altaf Hussain and Azeem Tariq (very intelligent person – allegedly murdered by Altaf due to power struggles) during their university days because of their stand against religious extremism and feudal lords. My father was the registrar of the university so I was living in university campus and was very close to everything. The party started because of the so-called “ghunda gardi” by Punjab Student’s Association and Jamat-e-Islami when they started harassing women and beating up male students. The main ideology of MQM was always to fight against feudalism and religious extremism. I was a member of MQM since my college days. In the middle bad times came because Altaf had no good advisor and he made some terrible decisions. That changed after educated people floated to the top. Now the party also stands up for Women as well as against Feudalism.
Now the second part as to why MQM supports Musharaf. The true answer to this question is because MQM is a Karachi party. During the Benazir, Nawaz tenure people who suffered the most were Karachiites. On one hand they were brutally murdered (Benazir’s action in Hyderabad when 1200 people died in one night) and on the other they were treated with utmost contempt by Nawaz Sharif. They had to beg for everything including money and resources. Everyday 100000 people come into Karachi. Would you know how many actually go back? The answer is not many. Anyway, finally there was a leader who was from Karachi, and was willing to let Karachi use its own money to develop itself. Finally there was a guy who did not put his cronies in every institution of Karachi. During Benazir and Nawaz, Karachi (which never used to sleep) actually used to close down at 7 pm because of the illegal activities going on. The city was in a horrible condition, roads dilapidated, no new businesses, and no resources (as everything was being used by everyone else from other provinces). People used to get their travel documents ripped up at the airport (personal plus I have heard a lot of close people rehash their stories) by these political party supporters. There was no law and order. On one hand Zardari did not have the guts (political smartness) to do these things in Lahore (as PPP needed Punjab), and on the other Zardari was destroying Karachi. He was called Mr. 10 % for a reason. That is why you will see people (MQM) supporting this government because no matter what anyone else thinks, this government has finally realized the Mohajir contribution. But that does not mean that MQM never goes against the government. Below are some links as examples.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=162220
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?162220
www.mqm.org/news-2006/news-2006.htm
www.dawn.com/2002/10/09/nat27.htm
www.aaj.tv/news/news.php?pg=3&show=detail&nid=49718
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don`t agree with. ~Eleanor Holmes Norton
It has been a pleasure to disagree with you. Just one more thing. You asked
``If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?``
Despite me not liking Altaf Hussain, I do like what MQM has to say, especially about the feudal system and Woman`s Protection bill. In order to understand what MQM is we have to see how it evolved. MQM was formed by Altaf Hussain and Azeem Tariq (very intelligent person – allegedly murdered by Altaf due to power struggles) during their university days because of their stand against religious extremism and feudal lords. My father was the registrar of the university so I was living in university campus and was very close to everything. The party started because of the so-called “ghunda gardi” by Punjab Student’s Association and Jamat-e-Islami when they started harassing women and beating up male students. The main ideology of MQM was always to fight against feudalism and religious extremism. I was a member of MQM since my college days. In the middle bad times came because Altaf had no good advisor and he made some terrible decisions. That changed after educated people floated to the top. Now the party also stands up for Women as well as against Feudalism.
Now the second part as to why MQM supports Musharaf. The true answer to this question is because MQM is a Karachi party. During the Benazir, Nawaz tenure people who suffered the most were Karachiites. On one hand they were brutally murdered (Benazir’s action in Hyderabad when 1200 people died in one night) and on the other they were treated with utmost contempt by Nawaz Sharif. They had to beg for everything including money and resources. Everyday 100000 people come into Karachi. Would you know how many actually go back? The answer is not many. Anyway, finally there was a leader who was from Karachi, and was willing to let Karachi use its own money to develop itself. Finally there was a guy who did not put his cronies in every institution of Karachi. During Benazir and Nawaz, Karachi (which never used to sleep) actually used to close down at 7 pm because of the illegal activities going on. The city was in a horrible condition, roads dilapidated, no new businesses, and no resources (as everything was being used by everyone else from other provinces). People used to get their travel documents ripped up at the airport (personal plus I have heard a lot of close people rehash their stories) by these political party supporters. There was no law and order. On one hand Zardari did not have the guts (political smartness) to do these things in Lahore (as PPP needed Punjab), and on the other Zardari was destroying Karachi. He was called Mr. 10 % for a reason. That is why you will see people (MQM) supporting this government because no matter what anyone else thinks, this government has finally realized the Mohajir contribution. But that does not mean that MQM never goes against the government. Below are some links as examples.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=162220
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?162220
www.mqm.org/news-2006/news-2006.htm
www.dawn.com/2002/10/09/nat27.htm
www.aaj.tv/news/news.php?pg=3&show=detail&nid=49718
#1630 Posted by Zeena on April 16, 2007 9:55:55 am
#1629 hasanmahmood sahib
You are glad that you and I agree on so many issues that you raised in your earlier posts for me.
Well, I am also gald that we both are almost like minded Pakistanis.
but, hey hasanmahmood sahib
We both should also be glad to take our disagreements as decently and with open minds and hearts without sounding condescending and without patronizing eachother.
And at the end with agreeing to disagree without insulting eacother.
and I am proud of you that despite holding some different views on this issue, you did not insult me and you gave me an open chance to discuss with me my stand.
Thanks fo rbeing a nice gentleman...
You are glad that you and I agree on so many issues that you raised in your earlier posts for me.
Well, I am also gald that we both are almost like minded Pakistanis.
but, hey hasanmahmood sahib
We both should also be glad to take our disagreements as decently and with open minds and hearts without sounding condescending and without patronizing eachother.
And at the end with agreeing to disagree without insulting eacother.
and I am proud of you that despite holding some different views on this issue, you did not insult me and you gave me an open chance to discuss with me my stand.
Thanks fo rbeing a nice gentleman...
#1629 Posted by Zeena on April 16, 2007 9:30:27 am
#1628 hasanmahmood sahib
Thanks for taking time and reading my posts.
Yes, both of us do agree on many of such issues.
But, I still strongly support JH brave clads stand against Madam Shamim. I am not infavor of Pseudo Mullahs, b/c they are ignorant and they do not know their limits.
PseudoMullahs are as corrupt as anyone could be. They have done nothing for the progress of Pakistan, but, again I will respect and will support the good action and morally correct action , no matter what the source is.
MQM is against pseudoMullahs, excellent....all of us are..
But, my only question is, mullahs are not in the main stream of Pakistani politics and they have had always been sold and used by feudal lords.
My suspicions for MQM is that this is also being used by feudal lords and musharaf.
If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?
#1627 samar1982
You can me simpleton..........or whatever. Yes, I am proud that I am not cunning or conniving. I always stand for the truth on my own firm grounds.
In this case you seem to be simpleton.........b/c you do not read my posts and start samething all over again.
My stand on this issue is crystal clear.
Now, if, you wish to call me Mullha...I can not help it....go ahead call me whatever....Now, if, you wish to call me jihadi...go ahead....I can not help it.
I am sorry , but, you sound like majority of Indian chowkies( except for few ones), who do not even try to understand and who do not even try to read our posts and start their (FATWAS) against Pakistanis.
They start calling every Pakistani(jihadi, talibani and mullah).....
I am Muslim...........does it make me pseudo mullah/johadi/talibani? NO absolutely not.
I am Pakistani...does it make me as anything as above? No abolutely not.
I do not wish to repeat this again and again....Please, read my posts again, if, you wish to.
If, you`re repeating yourself again....Let me make it very very clear....Yes, JH brave girls did the right action @ the right time.
Whatever happened latter by pseudoMullahs in Lal Masjid was not right...and I already gave my reasons in my prior posts.
Will you please, stop patronizing me? You are being, too CONDESCENDING here....Just think about it.
I have nothing to do with mullahs....but, sorry the nature of your posts also remind me that you`re another mullah type for your condescending behaviour.
You are exactly doing the samething here[[self righteous]]], me, me, me......
Anyway.......
I am proud that I still stand firmly for the right action of JH girls and will always do, no matter what the source would be.....
Thanks
Thanks for taking time and reading my posts.
Yes, both of us do agree on many of such issues.
But, I still strongly support JH brave clads stand against Madam Shamim. I am not infavor of Pseudo Mullahs, b/c they are ignorant and they do not know their limits.
PseudoMullahs are as corrupt as anyone could be. They have done nothing for the progress of Pakistan, but, again I will respect and will support the good action and morally correct action , no matter what the source is.
MQM is against pseudoMullahs, excellent....all of us are..
But, my only question is, mullahs are not in the main stream of Pakistani politics and they have had always been sold and used by feudal lords.
My suspicions for MQM is that this is also being used by feudal lords and musharaf.
If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?
#1627 samar1982
You can me simpleton..........or whatever. Yes, I am proud that I am not cunning or conniving. I always stand for the truth on my own firm grounds.
In this case you seem to be simpleton.........b/c you do not read my posts and start samething all over again.
My stand on this issue is crystal clear.
Now, if, you wish to call me Mullha...I can not help it....go ahead call me whatever....Now, if, you wish to call me jihadi...go ahead....I can not help it.
I am sorry , but, you sound like majority of Indian chowkies( except for few ones), who do not even try to understand and who do not even try to read our posts and start their (FATWAS) against Pakistanis.
They start calling every Pakistani(jihadi, talibani and mullah).....
I am Muslim...........does it make me pseudo mullah/johadi/talibani? NO absolutely not.
I am Pakistani...does it make me as anything as above? No abolutely not.
I do not wish to repeat this again and again....Please, read my posts again, if, you wish to.
If, you`re repeating yourself again....Let me make it very very clear....Yes, JH brave girls did the right action @ the right time.
Whatever happened latter by pseudoMullahs in Lal Masjid was not right...and I already gave my reasons in my prior posts.
Will you please, stop patronizing me? You are being, too CONDESCENDING here....Just think about it.
I have nothing to do with mullahs....but, sorry the nature of your posts also remind me that you`re another mullah type for your condescending behaviour.
You are exactly doing the samething here[[self righteous]]], me, me, me......
Anyway.......
I am proud that I still stand firmly for the right action of JH girls and will always do, no matter what the source would be.....
Thanks
#1628 Posted by HasanMahmood on April 16, 2007 7:56:27 am
Re: # 1613
teshah,
I have one word for you huh???? You are either not from Pakistan or are compeltely oblivious to the political system in Pakistan. MQM ahs a big say in Karachi and not Punjab or Islamabad. What could have theey done to vacate those girls. They just showed the mullahs to not even think about doing the same thing in Karachi. MQM is striving to become a national party (help with the quake victim being an example) but it is not theere yet. What they could do was voice in the assemblies their displeasure with the government handling of this situation and they did that. What else do you want. At least MQM was better than Bezamir and Besharif (like the names-maybe they will stick). By the way I hope you are not a Punjabi tring to tell people how bad MQM is. Did anyone notice the hair job Nawaz has done. Can someone ask if this was also with the money he stole from the people of Pakistan. And one advice to Benazir - Shut the *&!@ up!
Zeena, I was happy to read your answer. Hope you do much more for Pakistan. Regarding the Hafza girls I dont agree with you because I dont think it has anything to do with woman empowerment. If it was I would be happy to support it. I just hope that these girls dont get hurt by their ignorance. They should stop listening to these mullahs and listen to their parents. They will not achieve anything and they should realize that the only reason they are still occupying the children`s library is not because their school is very powerful and these nullahs are backing them but because the government despite pressure from almost every person in Pakistan is reluctant to use force. I hope they learn from this and actually do things to empower women and not just take dandas in their hands at the behest of these mullahs.
teshah,
I have one word for you huh???? You are either not from Pakistan or are compeltely oblivious to the political system in Pakistan. MQM ahs a big say in Karachi and not Punjab or Islamabad. What could have theey done to vacate those girls. They just showed the mullahs to not even think about doing the same thing in Karachi. MQM is striving to become a national party (help with the quake victim being an example) but it is not theere yet. What they could do was voice in the assemblies their displeasure with the government handling of this situation and they did that. What else do you want. At least MQM was better than Bezamir and Besharif (like the names-maybe they will stick). By the way I hope you are not a Punjabi tring to tell people how bad MQM is. Did anyone notice the hair job Nawaz has done. Can someone ask if this was also with the money he stole from the people of Pakistan. And one advice to Benazir - Shut the *&!@ up!
Zeena, I was happy to read your answer. Hope you do much more for Pakistan. Regarding the Hafza girls I dont agree with you because I dont think it has anything to do with woman empowerment. If it was I would be happy to support it. I just hope that these girls dont get hurt by their ignorance. They should stop listening to these mullahs and listen to their parents. They will not achieve anything and they should realize that the only reason they are still occupying the children`s library is not because their school is very powerful and these nullahs are backing them but because the government despite pressure from almost every person in Pakistan is reluctant to use force. I hope they learn from this and actually do things to empower women and not just take dandas in their hands at the behest of these mullahs.
#1627 Posted by samar1982 on April 16, 2007 2:02:56 am
Dear Zeena,
You are really a simpleton (take the meaning `innocent plus simple hearted`) like the JH girls.
I have been the one who always tried to stop others to even talk to you. But I have decided to give a little bit of try myself. Kindly try to take me seriously.
I am convinced that you are not in favour of Mullas or Islamization of Pak. You are sympathetic to MM. You are against violence against DVD shops. You are against prostitution. I and many others who you call liberals (and this term encompasses many religious people too) have the same view as yours on all these issues. Then where is the difference? I will tell you what. The difference lies in perception.
As things stand, we too are not as such against these burka clad girls themselves because these too are simple hearted, innocent young girls. In their innocence these girls have allowed themselves to be used by JH maulanas for their nasty aims which, I am afraid, have the potential of damaging Pak irreparably because these obscurantist Mullahs want Pak to be Islamized. They want Pak to be a 7th century nation which I hope you too don`t approve of.
You will appreciate that in war the front line soldiers take the whole beating. Even if the soldier is a kind hearted, God fearing, simple man he will be killed before he could kill the opponent. That is what is happening in this case. Because these girls have, in their naivety, become soldiers of Mullahs they are being condemned by peace loving people around the world. In the heart of the heart we all pity them. But if they resort to violence what a sane person can do other than to denounce them. The same is happening here. Even after being such a nice lady you get all the wrong words just because you are seen to be in the grip of Mullahs. So try to distance yourself from the ideology of fanaticism. Not only you should be correct, you should look correct too to get respect.
I don`t know who are you, or how old are you. I have tried to make you understand like I do with my simpleton mother or my cousin little Aisha who don`t dare touch my computer now.
If you find these words worthless even now, I earnestly, with folded hands request you to at least give a heed to the advice of the Chowk representative of the Mullahs, you better know who.
And last but not the least I take back all my words which you think are against you or derogatory to you. I can`t bear to have teased or mocked a lady who is only too simple to understand what is good for her, her society and her nation.
Samar
You are really a simpleton (take the meaning `innocent plus simple hearted`) like the JH girls.
I have been the one who always tried to stop others to even talk to you. But I have decided to give a little bit of try myself. Kindly try to take me seriously.
I am convinced that you are not in favour of Mullas or Islamization of Pak. You are sympathetic to MM. You are against violence against DVD shops. You are against prostitution. I and many others who you call liberals (and this term encompasses many religious people too) have the same view as yours on all these issues. Then where is the difference? I will tell you what. The difference lies in perception.
As things stand, we too are not as such against these burka clad girls themselves because these too are simple hearted, innocent young girls. In their innocence these girls have allowed themselves to be used by JH maulanas for their nasty aims which, I am afraid, have the potential of damaging Pak irreparably because these obscurantist Mullahs want Pak to be Islamized. They want Pak to be a 7th century nation which I hope you too don`t approve of.
You will appreciate that in war the front line soldiers take the whole beating. Even if the soldier is a kind hearted, God fearing, simple man he will be killed before he could kill the opponent. That is what is happening in this case. Because these girls have, in their naivety, become soldiers of Mullahs they are being condemned by peace loving people around the world. In the heart of the heart we all pity them. But if they resort to violence what a sane person can do other than to denounce them. The same is happening here. Even after being such a nice lady you get all the wrong words just because you are seen to be in the grip of Mullahs. So try to distance yourself from the ideology of fanaticism. Not only you should be correct, you should look correct too to get respect.
I don`t know who are you, or how old are you. I have tried to make you understand like I do with my simpleton mother or my cousin little Aisha who don`t dare touch my computer now.
If you find these words worthless even now, I earnestly, with folded hands request you to at least give a heed to the advice of the Chowk representative of the Mullahs, you better know who.
And last but not the least I take back all my words which you think are against you or derogatory to you. I can`t bear to have teased or mocked a lady who is only too simple to understand what is good for her, her society and her nation.
Samar
#1626 Posted by Zeena on April 16, 2007 12:22:06 am
neembu sister
and you also wrote[[This issue-chowk`s absolute refusal to deal with evilness of its cyberharrasers-has been the one fatal flaw of this website. Under the misbegotten and plain delusional notions of ``free speech``, they have allowed almost every kind of cyber harrassment on this website-the kind of internet abuse that could qualify as hate speech, lose people their jobs, result in people`s being assaulted at their workplaces. No website is worth that risk]]]
And why this selective double standards from your part?
You are the part and parcel of your cyberharrasser abusive chowk gang for me for NO reason at all.
You and your abusive gang has had been personally attacking me, cyberharrassing me non stop. Why?
Both of us never even met , then what was your beef with me?
Why you supported all kinds of harrassement for me? And you are still supportinmg it here on un plugged and also on FP( HF article).
When your abusive gang members were cyberharrassing me, you encouraged them more and actually took equal part.
You have had been provoking fights with me by showing obsessive attitude for me. You have never been sincere in any efforts to interact with decency with me.
Now, all of a sudden , the establishment of these moral values......wawawawa
When someone abuses and harrasses you, that is called cyberharrassement and that is absolutely wrong.
But, when on same token you and your abusive brigade with multiple nicks cyberharrassed me(and you encourage them), that is quite alright and acceptable for you.
This is called, perfect hypocrisy......
As if I am not someone`s wife, daughter or sister......just think about it.
Now, call your female and male brigade to abuse me more with more multiple nicks.......you are quite an honest and fair person, sister neembu...just think about it....
[-X[-X:((:((
and you also wrote[[This issue-chowk`s absolute refusal to deal with evilness of its cyberharrasers-has been the one fatal flaw of this website. Under the misbegotten and plain delusional notions of ``free speech``, they have allowed almost every kind of cyber harrassment on this website-the kind of internet abuse that could qualify as hate speech, lose people their jobs, result in people`s being assaulted at their workplaces. No website is worth that risk]]]
And why this selective double standards from your part?
You are the part and parcel of your cyberharrasser abusive chowk gang for me for NO reason at all.
You and your abusive gang has had been personally attacking me, cyberharrassing me non stop. Why?
Both of us never even met , then what was your beef with me?
Why you supported all kinds of harrassement for me? And you are still supportinmg it here on un plugged and also on FP( HF article).
When your abusive gang members were cyberharrassing me, you encouraged them more and actually took equal part.
You have had been provoking fights with me by showing obsessive attitude for me. You have never been sincere in any efforts to interact with decency with me.
Now, all of a sudden , the establishment of these moral values......wawawawa
When someone abuses and harrasses you, that is called cyberharrassement and that is absolutely wrong.
But, when on same token you and your abusive brigade with multiple nicks cyberharrassed me(and you encourage them), that is quite alright and acceptable for you.
This is called, perfect hypocrisy......
As if I am not someone`s wife, daughter or sister......just think about it.
Now, call your female and male brigade to abuse me more with more multiple nicks.......you are quite an honest and fair person, sister neembu...just think about it....
[-X[-X:((:((
#1625 Posted by Zeena on April 16, 2007 12:04:58 am
neembu sister
You wrote in your i-log{These kinds of double standards were defended by you. And this was not a ``UP/FP`` distinction ]]
And these are the kinds of double standards by you as well.
Just think about it......
You wrote in your i-log{These kinds of double standards were defended by you. And this was not a ``UP/FP`` distinction ]]
And these are the kinds of double standards by you as well.
Just think about it......
#1624 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 11:54:34 pm
from neembu`s i-logs................
[[[I am only critiquing their policies towards cyber harrassment which is short sighted, lazy and non committal. [[[Currently there are a few interactors who continue to refer to respected interactors as prostitutes, etc. {{Why would this be acceptable to any normal human being?]]]
I just wished to show the mirror to this highly decent intellectual interactyor, called neembu.
Ms.neembu
You are the one who came up on this Ms.Shandana`s FP article about HF sisters and STRONGLY SUPPORTED to legalize PROSTITUTION as a normal profession. And you are the one who strongly supported to legalize drug trafficking as well.
Well,
This is the height of hypocrisy that I just wished to show you.
Now, come up with more sickness.
Don`t forget to call your abusive brigade....LOL
PS:- When I was constantly saying the samething over and over again, you were constantly fighting with me and started all sorts of personal attacks for me.
Well, I am done with you . And, my case is closed here.
Thank you very much for this.....just think about it.
[[[I am only critiquing their policies towards cyber harrassment which is short sighted, lazy and non committal. [[[Currently there are a few interactors who continue to refer to respected interactors as prostitutes, etc. {{Why would this be acceptable to any normal human being?]]]
I just wished to show the mirror to this highly decent intellectual interactyor, called neembu.
Ms.neembu
You are the one who came up on this Ms.Shandana`s FP article about HF sisters and STRONGLY SUPPORTED to legalize PROSTITUTION as a normal profession. And you are the one who strongly supported to legalize drug trafficking as well.
Well,
This is the height of hypocrisy that I just wished to show you.
Now, come up with more sickness.
Don`t forget to call your abusive brigade....LOL
PS:- When I was constantly saying the samething over and over again, you were constantly fighting with me and started all sorts of personal attacks for me.
Well, I am done with you . And, my case is closed here.
Thank you very much for this.....just think about it.
#1623 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 10:42:25 pm
Besides, Manto
[[I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.]]
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
Thanks
The main culprit in Pakistani Politics is feudalism. Just think about it.
My only question is, if, MQM is sincere in it`s efforts, then when will MQM have exactly the same kind of rally against the real culprits , feudal lords?
80% of Pakistani population is rural and they are hijacked by these corrupt and cruel feudal lords.
If, you really wish to see Pakistan as progressive secular state, then eradicate these feudals.....
And you know what, these feudals are the ones who are using Mullahs for their own corrupt politics.
I will not trust MQM untill they will NOT do anything against feudals.
[[I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.]]
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
Thanks
The main culprit in Pakistani Politics is feudalism. Just think about it.
My only question is, if, MQM is sincere in it`s efforts, then when will MQM have exactly the same kind of rally against the real culprits , feudal lords?
80% of Pakistani population is rural and they are hijacked by these corrupt and cruel feudal lords.
If, you really wish to see Pakistan as progressive secular state, then eradicate these feudals.....
And you know what, these feudals are the ones who are using Mullahs for their own corrupt politics.
I will not trust MQM untill they will NOT do anything against feudals.
#1622 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 10:35:34 pm
manto
Yes, I am ready to support MQM`s agenda against all the points mentioned below, except I will still stand for Hafsa brave clads, who stood for the moral corruption.
I will not take their stand as a religious issue, but, as a moral one.
Whatever happened in Lal Mosque and latter ( burning cds etc).....is unacceptable.
If, MQM is really sincere in it`s efforts then they have to expand their issue throughout Pakistan.
And, not only that they should also try to eradicate corrupt Police , corrupt and weak law and order in Pakistan , which is very biased and which is very selective based on your status.
[[I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.]]
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
Thanks
Yes, I am ready to support MQM`s agenda against all the points mentioned below, except I will still stand for Hafsa brave clads, who stood for the moral corruption.
I will not take their stand as a religious issue, but, as a moral one.
Whatever happened in Lal Mosque and latter ( burning cds etc).....is unacceptable.
If, MQM is really sincere in it`s efforts then they have to expand their issue throughout Pakistan.
And, not only that they should also try to eradicate corrupt Police , corrupt and weak law and order in Pakistan , which is very biased and which is very selective based on your status.
[[I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.]]
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
Thanks
#1621 Posted by MantoLives on April 15, 2007 10:21:31 pm
I reject Gandhiism in all its forms and manifestations.
#1620 Posted by MantoLives on April 15, 2007 10:05:42 pm
The people of Pakistan have risen up against religio-fascist tyranny by these Fascist Islamists who were the original enemies of Pakistan and Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist Bigot Gandhi`s allies in 1947.... Also rally in Lahore on Thursday...
Massive rally against ‘Lal Masjid Sharia’
By Habib Khan Ghori
KARACHI, April 15: The Muttahida Qaumi Movement on Sunday staged a massive rally in the city against what it called the threat of ‘Kalashnikov Sharia’ of Islamabad’s Lal Masjid clerics and asserted that Islam did not allow enforcement of Sharia by force and Pakistan had not been created to be turned into a theological state.
In a telephonic address from London, party chief Altaf Hussain quoted profusely from the Holy Quran and Hadith to substantiate his attack on religious extremism. He said that extremists were defaming Islam and maligning the name of Pakistan and because of their acts of violence and terrorism, India, Afghanistan and other countries were describing Pakistan as a sanctuary of terrorists. He described the scholars supporting the Sharia of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa as “Ulema-i-Sou” and said they were misleading the country and the people.
The venue of the rally was the vast expanse of M.A. Jinnah Road from the Square of the Quaid’s Mausoleum to the Tibet Centre pedestrian bridge, jampacked by people who had come from all parts of the city and the interior of Sindh.
Mr Hussain spoke for more than one and a half hours, during which two helicopters were seen hovering over the area.
Referring to Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa, the MQM chief alleged that the mosque and the Jamia, built on encroached land, had been occupied by armed terrorists and because of their actions the world was pointing fingers at Pakistan.
“For God’s sake don’t destroy Pakistan,” he said and termed the rally a referendum against the ‘Kalashnikov Sharia’. He said Ulema from different schools of thought had ruled that the enforcement of Sharia by force was against Islam.
He cited the Quaid’s speech of August 11, 1947 about equality of all citizens of Pakistan, whether Muslims, Christian, Parsi or of any other faith, and freedom for all of them to go to and offer prayers in their places of worship.
He said the rally demanded that Ulema should issue a Fatwa if construction of a mosque or a religious seminary on an encroached and illegally occupied land was justified?
Some Ulema belonging to different schools of thought, who were present at the rally, said it was illegal and that offering prayers or getting religious education in such mosques and seminaries was not allowed. They pointed out that Masjid-i-Nabavi, which was the first mosque built in Madina by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), was built only after the land had been purchased by the Prophet (SAW).
Allama Aun Mohammad Naqvi (Fiqah-i-Jafria), Dr Abdul Khaliq Pirzada (Barelvi school of thought) and Amir Abdullah Farooqui (Ahl-i-Hadith) came to the podium and said offering prayers in a mosque built on an encroached plot of land was against Sharia.
The MQM chief appealed to Ulema, intellectuals, women’s organisations and moderate, enlightened and liberal sections of the society to raise their voices against and expose the “Ulema-i-Sou” who were calling for demolition of girls’ schools and wanted to deprive women and children of their right to get education. He said the right had been given to women by our Prophet (SAW) who had declared the acquiring of education an obligation of every man and woman. The Muslims, he added, would not be able to catch up with developed nations if they did not get modern education.
He said the MQM was against the “Ulema-i-Sou” who were using the name of Islam to advance their vested interests. “Let us pledge today that we won’t be fooled by these people using the name of Islam for achieving their political objectives,” he said and urged the people to maintain sectarian harmony. “We want to make Pakistan a peaceful, democratic, welfare and liberal state.”
Mr Hussain said his party would support Ulema who would raise voice against extremists.
Massive rally against ‘Lal Masjid Sharia’
By Habib Khan Ghori
KARACHI, April 15: The Muttahida Qaumi Movement on Sunday staged a massive rally in the city against what it called the threat of ‘Kalashnikov Sharia’ of Islamabad’s Lal Masjid clerics and asserted that Islam did not allow enforcement of Sharia by force and Pakistan had not been created to be turned into a theological state.
In a telephonic address from London, party chief Altaf Hussain quoted profusely from the Holy Quran and Hadith to substantiate his attack on religious extremism. He said that extremists were defaming Islam and maligning the name of Pakistan and because of their acts of violence and terrorism, India, Afghanistan and other countries were describing Pakistan as a sanctuary of terrorists. He described the scholars supporting the Sharia of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa as “Ulema-i-Sou” and said they were misleading the country and the people.
The venue of the rally was the vast expanse of M.A. Jinnah Road from the Square of the Quaid’s Mausoleum to the Tibet Centre pedestrian bridge, jampacked by people who had come from all parts of the city and the interior of Sindh.
Mr Hussain spoke for more than one and a half hours, during which two helicopters were seen hovering over the area.
Referring to Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa, the MQM chief alleged that the mosque and the Jamia, built on encroached land, had been occupied by armed terrorists and because of their actions the world was pointing fingers at Pakistan.
“For God’s sake don’t destroy Pakistan,” he said and termed the rally a referendum against the ‘Kalashnikov Sharia’. He said Ulema from different schools of thought had ruled that the enforcement of Sharia by force was against Islam.
He cited the Quaid’s speech of August 11, 1947 about equality of all citizens of Pakistan, whether Muslims, Christian, Parsi or of any other faith, and freedom for all of them to go to and offer prayers in their places of worship.
He said the rally demanded that Ulema should issue a Fatwa if construction of a mosque or a religious seminary on an encroached and illegally occupied land was justified?
Some Ulema belonging to different schools of thought, who were present at the rally, said it was illegal and that offering prayers or getting religious education in such mosques and seminaries was not allowed. They pointed out that Masjid-i-Nabavi, which was the first mosque built in Madina by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), was built only after the land had been purchased by the Prophet (SAW).
Allama Aun Mohammad Naqvi (Fiqah-i-Jafria), Dr Abdul Khaliq Pirzada (Barelvi school of thought) and Amir Abdullah Farooqui (Ahl-i-Hadith) came to the podium and said offering prayers in a mosque built on an encroached plot of land was against Sharia.
The MQM chief appealed to Ulema, intellectuals, women’s organisations and moderate, enlightened and liberal sections of the society to raise their voices against and expose the “Ulema-i-Sou” who were calling for demolition of girls’ schools and wanted to deprive women and children of their right to get education. He said the right had been given to women by our Prophet (SAW) who had declared the acquiring of education an obligation of every man and woman. The Muslims, he added, would not be able to catch up with developed nations if they did not get modern education.
He said the MQM was against the “Ulema-i-Sou” who were using the name of Islam to advance their vested interests. “Let us pledge today that we won’t be fooled by these people using the name of Islam for achieving their political objectives,” he said and urged the people to maintain sectarian harmony. “We want to make Pakistan a peaceful, democratic, welfare and liberal state.”
Mr Hussain said his party would support Ulema who would raise voice against extremists.
#1619 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 9:52:50 pm
I wish to post nycoolest very nice comments here on this board from un plugged.
[[[#80 by nycoolest on April 15, 2007 5:35pm PT
{#23 by Zeena on April 15, 2007 3:10pm PT
#1602 nycoolest sahib
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
}
Zeena, Thanks for your post. I was clear in my mind that our disagreement of Hafsa issue is not over the values; it`s rather the implementation of these values by the people who can`t be trusted. I have a lot of respect for your POVs you expressed in past. I believe you support in human rights, rule of law and freedom of speech in Pakistani society. Yes, I agreed these people in the rally have not come forward in the support of prostitution and banning Burqas... ( ) they are rather here to show support against the dandas, Kalashnikovs and threats being made against civil liberties in Pakistan. }}
nycoolest sahib
Thanks for your positive comments. That shows your sincere efforts to take few minutes of your precious time to read my post with open heart and mind.
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
[[[#80 by nycoolest on April 15, 2007 5:35pm PT
{#23 by Zeena on April 15, 2007 3:10pm PT
#1602 nycoolest sahib
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
}
Zeena, Thanks for your post. I was clear in my mind that our disagreement of Hafsa issue is not over the values; it`s rather the implementation of these values by the people who can`t be trusted. I have a lot of respect for your POVs you expressed in past. I believe you support in human rights, rule of law and freedom of speech in Pakistani society. Yes, I agreed these people in the rally have not come forward in the support of prostitution and banning Burqas... ( ) they are rather here to show support against the dandas, Kalashnikovs and threats being made against civil liberties in Pakistan. }}
nycoolest sahib
Thanks for your positive comments. That shows your sincere efforts to take few minutes of your precious time to read my post with open heart and mind.
Yes, I agree with each and every word that you said.
Except, that I have slightly different stand on this issue.
If, I will see some good efforts from any source(regardless), I will always appreciate that effort at that time.
But, if, suppose the same source will do something negative next time, I will never appreciate that source..............
Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.
I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.
Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]
#1618 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 8:38:42 pm
#1602 nycoolest sahib
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
For your eyes, I am re posting my previous post here. Post is lengthy. Please, read it carefully and try to not to ignore it and only then you will understand my whole stand for this issue.
Please, read it without any bias like majority of interactors have had been doing here on this board.
You and I have had agreed in past, when there was an issue about some abusive mirzaii chowkies on UN Plugged who have had been insulting our Holy Prophet(PBUH) in the most derogatory way possible. I hope you remember...........
So, here is my long post for your eyes only.
I hope you will take time to read it. Thanks
[[[#1562 by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:00pm PT
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards ]]]]]
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
For your eyes, I am re posting my previous post here. Post is lengthy. Please, read it carefully and try to not to ignore it and only then you will understand my whole stand for this issue.
Please, read it without any bias like majority of interactors have had been doing here on this board.
You and I have had agreed in past, when there was an issue about some abusive mirzaii chowkies on UN Plugged who have had been insulting our Holy Prophet(PBUH) in the most derogatory way possible. I hope you remember...........
So, here is my long post for your eyes only.
I hope you will take time to read it. Thanks
[[[#1562 by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:00pm PT
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards ]]]]]
#1617 Posted by teshah on April 15, 2007 7:51:12 pm
Re: # 1593
Folio
Thank you dear for your kind comments. You are right: I do get frustrated when one gets irrationally biased and tries to insult common sense and intelligence which Zeena baji is persistently prone to do.
Folio
Thank you dear for your kind comments. You are right: I do get frustrated when one gets irrationally biased and tries to insult common sense and intelligence which Zeena baji is persistently prone to do.
#1616 Posted by nycoolest on April 15, 2007 7:25:48 pm
Re: # 1603
Thank you ZahraJ for sharing the point of view. I couldn`t say it better then what you have said in your post.
Punjab is too divided among different political parties. It is hard for them to sit together rather then having a rally or a united voice against a serious issue like this. The politics of destruction and hate is not progressive. Karachi had it before what Punjab is facing now. The current development and positive outcomes in karachi proves goals can be achieved.
Like Karachi government, If checks and balance are in place and the elected officials come from the awam rather been a feudal who have no clue and concerns about the common people, Punjab has a lot of potential for progress.
Thank you ZahraJ for sharing the point of view. I couldn`t say it better then what you have said in your post.
Punjab is too divided among different political parties. It is hard for them to sit together rather then having a rally or a united voice against a serious issue like this. The politics of destruction and hate is not progressive. Karachi had it before what Punjab is facing now. The current development and positive outcomes in karachi proves goals can be achieved.
Like Karachi government, If checks and balance are in place and the elected officials come from the awam rather been a feudal who have no clue and concerns about the common people, Punjab has a lot of potential for progress.
#1615 Posted by teshah on April 15, 2007 7:12:38 pm
Re: # 1592
samar
Thank you dear Samar for correcting me. But what does it matter to Zina or zeena (I forget the spellings of her name even). She is utterly gender-biased and has no concern whatsoever with the facts. In fact I sometimes deliberately misquote credits in order to invite a correcting comment. But this time it was due to default in my memory which mixed up credits.
samar
Thank you dear Samar for correcting me. But what does it matter to Zina or zeena (I forget the spellings of her name even). She is utterly gender-biased and has no concern whatsoever with the facts. In fact I sometimes deliberately misquote credits in order to invite a correcting comment. But this time it was due to default in my memory which mixed up credits.
#1614 Posted by teshah on April 15, 2007 6:24:49 pm
Re: # 1602
What a joke is this grand show of MQM`s hypocrisy which could not get even the Children Library occupied by the wild girls vacated. Notwithstanding being a part of that Mafia in power they are now trying to usurp the role of opposition to gain votes in the coming elections.
What a shameless thing is this Musharraf-MQM brand `real` democracy!
What a joke is this grand show of MQM`s hypocrisy which could not get even the Children Library occupied by the wild girls vacated. Notwithstanding being a part of that Mafia in power they are now trying to usurp the role of opposition to gain votes in the coming elections.
What a shameless thing is this Musharraf-MQM brand `real` democracy!
#1613 Posted by teshah on April 15, 2007 6:24:39 pm
Re: # 1602
What a joke is this grand show of MQM`s hypocrisy which could not get even the Children Library occupied by the wild girls vacated. Notwithstanding being a part of that Mafia in power they are now trying to usurp the role of opposition to gain votes in the coming elections.
What a shameless thing is this Musharraf-MQM brand `real` democracy!
What a joke is this grand show of MQM`s hypocrisy which could not get even the Children Library occupied by the wild girls vacated. Notwithstanding being a part of that Mafia in power they are now trying to usurp the role of opposition to gain votes in the coming elections.
What a shameless thing is this Musharraf-MQM brand `real` democracy!
#1612 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 4:19:48 pm
To all the interactors on this board.
I still stand for Hafsa clads brave action.
But, I am NOT mullah or My stand is not for religious reason at all.
Majority of you do not know me. I am an ACCOMPLISHED marathon runner. I have been running marathons in NYC. I have had been sprinter in Pakistan as well.
I do not wear burqa.
I do run in my athletic attire and also I do wear shorts when I do my races.
It does not make me religious or non religious. For pseudoMullahs may be I am a KAFIR, if, I run marathons wearing shorts. But,for me I feel proud to be a marathon runner.
Yes, I am a proud Muslim/Pakistani who wishes to see Pakistan as much progressive as possible. I wish to see oppressed poor Pakistani people to stand up for their rights against the corruption which an average Pakistani has to face daily.
Being a marathon runner doesn`t make me A KAFIR or nokafir.
That is the point which I wished to deliver to all of you over there.
I am proud that I am not HYPOCRITE, I am proud that I do not make this stand as a religious stand. Yes, this is a moral stand that I will always support.
Thanks
I still stand for Hafsa clads brave action.
But, I am NOT mullah or My stand is not for religious reason at all.
Majority of you do not know me. I am an ACCOMPLISHED marathon runner. I have been running marathons in NYC. I have had been sprinter in Pakistan as well.
I do not wear burqa.
I do run in my athletic attire and also I do wear shorts when I do my races.
It does not make me religious or non religious. For pseudoMullahs may be I am a KAFIR, if, I run marathons wearing shorts. But,for me I feel proud to be a marathon runner.
Yes, I am a proud Muslim/Pakistani who wishes to see Pakistan as much progressive as possible. I wish to see oppressed poor Pakistani people to stand up for their rights against the corruption which an average Pakistani has to face daily.
Being a marathon runner doesn`t make me A KAFIR or nokafir.
That is the point which I wished to deliver to all of you over there.
I am proud that I am not HYPOCRITE, I am proud that I do not make this stand as a religious stand. Yes, this is a moral stand that I will always support.
Thanks
#1611 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 3:54:11 pm
#1610 Folio Sir/Madam
Thanks.
And my pleasure to interact with you with mutual respect even if our POVs are different.
And I think thats what is called freedom of expression with responsibility.
Yes, you and I have never abused eachother in the past and I hope samething in the future.
It is one thing to disagree on some issue and It is another to abuse someone and to personally attack someone.
Unlike what majority of interactors called me names, personally attacked me on this board.
Thanks for being civil with me.
Thanks.
And my pleasure to interact with you with mutual respect even if our POVs are different.
And I think thats what is called freedom of expression with responsibility.
Yes, you and I have never abused eachother in the past and I hope samething in the future.
It is one thing to disagree on some issue and It is another to abuse someone and to personally attack someone.
Unlike what majority of interactors called me names, personally attacked me on this board.
Thanks for being civil with me.
#1610 Posted by Folio on April 15, 2007 3:39:12 pm
Are Madam,
I never asked u to change ur opinions. We have our own filters.
I may have my own biases u may have ur own.
I never used any abusive words to reply ur posts.
I know my limits.
As 4 the grabage of UP, less said the better. Again we have 2 differing povs. I keep mine, u keep urs.
Rgds
I never asked u to change ur opinions. We have our own filters.
I may have my own biases u may have ur own.
I never used any abusive words to reply ur posts.
I know my limits.
As 4 the grabage of UP, less said the better. Again we have 2 differing povs. I keep mine, u keep urs.
Rgds
#1609 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 3:35:15 pm
Salim Mian
Let me post your un plugged post here on this board, as it justified our stand for Hafsa brave clads.................
You`re simply a genius, Salim.
How very beautifully you put everything together in one post..........Wow!!!
[[[#30 by Salim_Chauhan on April 15, 2007 3:16pm PT
Zeena,
No need to get worried. This rally is MQM`s warning and muscle flexing to Bezamir, Besharif, and Mullah Fazlu to watcha their collective asses. It`s trying to let them know that they cannot and will not be able to have Karachi`s support against the Government if they use street politics.
It has very little to do with Aunty Shamim and her attempt to set up the house of ill repute in Pakistan`s capital. The actions of the brave Jamia Hifsa vigilante virgins are still justified. ]]
Bezamir.......LOL, Besharif........LOL, Mullah Fazlu Bajlu Paglu................LOL...........
Let me post your un plugged post here on this board, as it justified our stand for Hafsa brave clads.................
You`re simply a genius, Salim.
How very beautifully you put everything together in one post..........Wow!!!
[[[#30 by Salim_Chauhan on April 15, 2007 3:16pm PT
Zeena,
No need to get worried. This rally is MQM`s warning and muscle flexing to Bezamir, Besharif, and Mullah Fazlu to watcha their collective asses. It`s trying to let them know that they cannot and will not be able to have Karachi`s support against the Government if they use street politics.
It has very little to do with Aunty Shamim and her attempt to set up the house of ill repute in Pakistan`s capital. The actions of the brave Jamia Hifsa vigilante virgins are still justified. ]]
Bezamir.......LOL, Besharif........LOL, Mullah Fazlu Bajlu Paglu................LOL...........
#1608 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 3:07:47 pm
#1606 Folio Sir/Madam
You do not know me at all. So, do not form any opinion without even trying to read my whole stand.
I have never changed my opinion on anything. As long as I am here on chowk, I have always showed my stand against PseudoMullahs.
So, please do not try to project your own self created false opinion for me. Thanks
And also, if, you are sincere in understanding my POV on this whole issue, please , read my lengthy post #1607..............
And, again try NOT to twist my pov to suit your mind only. That is NOT intellectual honesty.
I never try to twist anyone`s POV, even, if their views do not suit my mind.
Thanks in anticipation.
PS:- I do not wish to be part of any fight between you and Sobia on un plugged. Just forget about it and carry on with your own views...........I you wish to fight with Someone on un plugged, I am not a chowk moral police and I am not a chowk staff either.
Sorry, for interfering with your fights on un plugged. And, I agree with you, un plugged is a garbage bin which stinks. And that`s the main reason, I do not go to un plugged anymore.
Yes, in that bin, everyone is abusive.
I am sorry for the fact that I SINGLED YOU OUT in that whole garbage bin.
My apology. Thanks
You do not know me at all. So, do not form any opinion without even trying to read my whole stand.
I have never changed my opinion on anything. As long as I am here on chowk, I have always showed my stand against PseudoMullahs.
So, please do not try to project your own self created false opinion for me. Thanks
And also, if, you are sincere in understanding my POV on this whole issue, please , read my lengthy post #1607..............
And, again try NOT to twist my pov to suit your mind only. That is NOT intellectual honesty.
I never try to twist anyone`s POV, even, if their views do not suit my mind.
Thanks in anticipation.
PS:- I do not wish to be part of any fight between you and Sobia on un plugged. Just forget about it and carry on with your own views...........I you wish to fight with Someone on un plugged, I am not a chowk moral police and I am not a chowk staff either.
Sorry, for interfering with your fights on un plugged. And, I agree with you, un plugged is a garbage bin which stinks. And that`s the main reason, I do not go to un plugged anymore.
Yes, in that bin, everyone is abusive.
I am sorry for the fact that I SINGLED YOU OUT in that whole garbage bin.
My apology. Thanks
#1607 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 2:54:14 pm
#1602 nycoolest sahib
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
For your eyes, I am re posting my previous post here. Post is lengthy. Please, read it carefully and try to not to ignore it and only then you will understand my whole stand for this issue.
Please, read it without any bias like majority of interactors have had been doing here on this board.
You and I have had agreed in past, when there was an issue about some abusive mirzaii chowkies on UN Plugged who have had been insulting our Holy Prophet(PBUH) in the most derogatory way possible. I hope you remember...........
So, here is my long post for your eyes only.
I hope you will take time to read it. Thanks
[[[#1562 by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:00pm PT
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards ]]]]]
I never wished to see Pakistan as some sort of religious state..............My stand is totally different based on my own views and values that I am raised with. And I am quite sure, these people who have had been protesting agree with the same values as any average Pakistani is raised with and I am also sure, you`re also holding the same basic values.
For your eyes, I am re posting my previous post here. Post is lengthy. Please, read it carefully and try to not to ignore it and only then you will understand my whole stand for this issue.
Please, read it without any bias like majority of interactors have had been doing here on this board.
You and I have had agreed in past, when there was an issue about some abusive mirzaii chowkies on UN Plugged who have had been insulting our Holy Prophet(PBUH) in the most derogatory way possible. I hope you remember...........
So, here is my long post for your eyes only.
I hope you will take time to read it. Thanks
[[[#1562 by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:00pm PT
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards ]]]]]
#1606 Posted by Folio on April 15, 2007 2:51:58 pm
Zeemax`s take on MQM rally against Kalashnikov Shariat is welcome. ZeeBhra Haazir ho?
Lil bunny`s qualified repentence is a welcome change. (T)
Lil bunny`s qualified repentence is a welcome change. (T)
#1605 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 2:44:30 pm
#1602 nycoolest sahib
Well, my stand is only for Hafsa brave clads courage to get rid of Madam Shamim`s brothel and all other illegal activities in a decent neighborhood.
I never stood when pseudoMullahs started taking advantage of this whole situation and started burning music stores.
I still stand for the brave act of my Hafsa sisters for the reasons I have already posted.
If, some people are giving it a religious twist to prove their views, that is their own agenda. I do not work under any agenda.
My views are very clear based on my own perception.
Well, my stand is only for Hafsa brave clads courage to get rid of Madam Shamim`s brothel and all other illegal activities in a decent neighborhood.
I never stood when pseudoMullahs started taking advantage of this whole situation and started burning music stores.
I still stand for the brave act of my Hafsa sisters for the reasons I have already posted.
If, some people are giving it a religious twist to prove their views, that is their own agenda. I do not work under any agenda.
My views are very clear based on my own perception.
#1604 Posted by Folio on April 15, 2007 2:10:22 pm
Thanks a lot NYC for honouring my request (posted on UP).
Karachi and Islamabad are poles apart.
Well done MQM!
Karachi and Islamabad are poles apart.
Well done MQM!
#1603 Posted by ZahraJ on April 15, 2007 2:07:28 pm
Re: # 1602
nycoolest - Thanks for the information. It is time that the country realizes what they are up against. If they do not raise their voice and concerns, then obviously they will be in similar situation as Afghanistan, Iraq, and various other Muslim countries with no semblance of peace, culture, civilization and structure left. That`s a very positive sign. It would have been real nice had this kind of response came from Punjab where the munafiqeens are ready to violate their own civilization.
Good one!
nycoolest - Thanks for the information. It is time that the country realizes what they are up against. If they do not raise their voice and concerns, then obviously they will be in similar situation as Afghanistan, Iraq, and various other Muslim countries with no semblance of peace, culture, civilization and structure left. That`s a very positive sign. It would have been real nice had this kind of response came from Punjab where the munafiqeens are ready to violate their own civilization.
Good one!
#1602 Posted by nycoolest on April 15, 2007 1:57:45 pm
Huge Rally Against Hafsa Brigade in Karachi
April 15th, 2007
April 15th, 2007
#1601 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 1:56:35 pm
Prayers to face evils.................
Make Me Strong in Spirit
Make me strong in spirit,
Courageous in action,
Gentle of heart,
Let me act in wisdom,
Conquer my fear and doubt,
Discover my own hidden gifts,
Meet others with compassion,
Be a source of healing energies,
And face each day with hope and joy.
Make Me Strong in Spirit
Make me strong in spirit,
Courageous in action,
Gentle of heart,
Let me act in wisdom,
Conquer my fear and doubt,
Discover my own hidden gifts,
Meet others with compassion,
Be a source of healing energies,
And face each day with hope and joy.
#1600 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 1:54:46 pm
#1592 Samar sahib
Yes, indeed, even God(Almighty) created devils and evils , who exist in human form, but, with evilsh bodies to make us see the difference between real humans and evil humans.
May God(Almighty) show us light to see the evils vs humans.
And sad thing is , evils have NO insight............
Yes, indeed, even God(Almighty) created devils and evils , who exist in human form, but, with evilsh bodies to make us see the difference between real humans and evil humans.
May God(Almighty) show us light to see the evils vs humans.
And sad thing is , evils have NO insight............
#1599 Posted by Zeena on April 15, 2007 1:47:57 pm
In Thy name, Lord, I lay me down and
in Thy name will I rise up...
O God,
Thou art the first and before Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the last and after Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the outmost and above Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the inmost and below Thee there is nothing....
Waken me, O God, in the hour most pleasing to Thee
and use me in the works most pleasing to Thee,
that Thou mayest bring me ever nearer to Thyself.
in Thy name will I rise up...
O God,
Thou art the first and before Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the last and after Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the outmost and above Thee there is nothing;
Thou art the inmost and below Thee there is nothing....
Waken me, O God, in the hour most pleasing to Thee
and use me in the works most pleasing to Thee,
that Thou mayest bring me ever nearer to Thyself.
#1598 Posted by ZahraJ on April 15, 2007 1:41:49 pm
Re: # 1592
Samar -
[Even God himself much depends on devils to manifest His own existence. Is it not? ]
That was beautiful. Your analysis is spot on.
Have a pretty weekend :)
Samar -
[Even God himself much depends on devils to manifest His own existence. Is it not? ]
That was beautiful. Your analysis is spot on.
Have a pretty weekend :)