Talibanization of Pakistan
Rafi Aamer April 17, 2007
#198 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 30, 2007 12:24:29 pm
Re: # 196
imransuhail
Sorry for misspelling your name.
Rafi
imransuhail
Sorry for misspelling your name.
Rafi
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#197 Posted by Indian on April 30, 2007 8:58:09 am
I wonder whether this article tells the truth ...
http://www.newstatesman.com/
http://www.newstatesman.com/
#196 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 30, 2007 7:46:06 am
Re: # 195
imransuhgail,
I think I wrote what I describe as Talibanization, Pakistan-style when I wrote, `` A different sort of Talibanization though, where the jurisdiction of religion is expanded to every walk of life, from legislation to education and from sports to personal conduct of private citizens, is not only possible but is in steady progress in Pakistan. ``
You wrote, ``ideological islamic revolution based on islamic law and ONLY on quran and sunnah which allows scholors and elites to vote on new laws within islam just like the 1000+ year old islamic state used to be``.
Who gets to decide who these ``scholars and elites `` are? I would be really interested to know what you have in mind.
Regards,
Rafi Aamer
imransuhgail,
I think I wrote what I describe as Talibanization, Pakistan-style when I wrote, `` A different sort of Talibanization though, where the jurisdiction of religion is expanded to every walk of life, from legislation to education and from sports to personal conduct of private citizens, is not only possible but is in steady progress in Pakistan. ``
You wrote, ``ideological islamic revolution based on islamic law and ONLY on quran and sunnah which allows scholors and elites to vote on new laws within islam just like the 1000+ year old islamic state used to be``.
Who gets to decide who these ``scholars and elites `` are? I would be really interested to know what you have in mind.
Regards,
Rafi Aamer
#195 Posted by imransuhail on April 30, 2007 12:45:28 am
The Talibanization, Pakistan-style, is nearing its completion. <<<<< although what ur saying makes no sense... talibanization is a term not clearly defined,.... but if ur talking about an ideological islamic revolution based on islamic law and ONLY on quran and sunnah which allows scholors and elites to vote on new laws within islam just like the 1000+ year old islamic state used to be,.... then all i can say is ... INSHALLAH... i hope that day comes soon and without violence.
#194 Posted by imransuhail on April 30, 2007 12:37:13 am
Re: # 28
``he state of Pakistan has been actively pursueing a policy of promoting this ideology`` <<<<<< you must be nuts if u think pakistan has been following an ideology of islamic brother hood. Pakistan is the forerunner in the `turn your back to muslims` contest. what has pakistan ever done for political islam? to unite the muslims? to protect mulims lives, rights, and property????
grow up....
the lady is right, feudals and everything else is gora creation as the current bullsh*t system of pseudo-capitalist secular democracy is western enforced. Sadly muslims today look towads the west to solve their problems when the west has infact created them all.
i can elaborate and explain in clear tems how this was done by the west if someone is interested. although i know that chowk is dominated overwhelmingly by seculars and they would never enter this debate.
``he state of Pakistan has been actively pursueing a policy of promoting this ideology`` <<<<<< you must be nuts if u think pakistan has been following an ideology of islamic brother hood. Pakistan is the forerunner in the `turn your back to muslims` contest. what has pakistan ever done for political islam? to unite the muslims? to protect mulims lives, rights, and property????
grow up....
the lady is right, feudals and everything else is gora creation as the current bullsh*t system of pseudo-capitalist secular democracy is western enforced. Sadly muslims today look towads the west to solve their problems when the west has infact created them all.
i can elaborate and explain in clear tems how this was done by the west if someone is interested. although i know that chowk is dominated overwhelmingly by seculars and they would never enter this debate.
#193 Posted by ballukhan on April 28, 2007 1:22:43 am
Jihadi media thrives in Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: A newspaper warns that Jews and Christians are engaged in “genocide” against Muslims. A website says children should love guns instead of cricket. A video shows a child beheading a militant accused of betraying his comrades.
Despite government promises to crack down, hate-filled jihadist propaganda is thriving in Pakistan, especially in print and on the Internet. Critics say it is contributing to the demonisation of the West and the “Talibanisation” of Pakistan.
Some of the most vitriolic material is produced by affiliates of supposedly banned groups.
“I feel it has increased and the tone has become more hostile,” said Mohammad Shahzad, who runs a media monitoring service in Pakistan for clients including think tanks and embassies. “The level of extremism and fanaticism has gone up.”
Shahzad said there are no statistics on the output of extremist groups. However, examples are plentiful.
Tayyabat, a magazine for women published by Jamaatud Dawa says Pakistan’s support of the US war on terror amounts to surrendering to an America bent on eliminating Muslims.
“A white flag will not put out the fire from the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. They are thirsty for the Muslim’s blood,” an article in February said.
A government ban against the al-Rashid trust, an Islamic charity proscribed in February for alleged links with terrorist groups, has failed to stop the associated Daily Islam newspaper from publishing in Karachi. Its content is not overtly militant, but often inflammatory.
“Jews, Christians and their allies are engaged in genocide of Muslims but Islam is spreading and its enemies are losing their nerve,” a recent article said.
Hardline religious propaganda is still far from the mainstream in Pakistan, where the thriving private media have, in particular, revolutionised TV with more liberal programming. But as in other Muslim countries, the call for jihad, or holy war, against the West has also gained resonance here amid widespread anger over the US-led invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Abdullah Muntazir, spokesman for Jamaatud Dawa, defended the group as a peaceful organisation exercising its right to freedom of expression. He complained that anyone publishing anti-American material in Pakistan is immediately accused of “promoting jihad”.
But many observers worry that Pakistan’s military-dominated government is doing too little to prevent extremists from publishing incendiary material that potentially drums up recruits and donations for militant attacks in Pakistan and beyond.
“There are laws against hate speech. They haven’t even applied those,” said Samina Ahmed, an analyst for the International Crisis Group.
“The fact that there are no curbs on them (extremists) or that the government backs down the moment there is the slightest resistance on the part of Islamic organisations has encouraged them to circulate their message.”
Tariq Azeem, minister of state for information, defended the government’s record against extremist media. He said any media promoting violence, including suicide bombings and sectarian attacks, were “totally illegal and will not be tolerated.”
Some action has been taken.
Markets in key cities such as Peshawar and Karachi that openly stocked jihadist videos a year ago no longer do so - although some merchants still whisper they can get them on request.
That is despite an increased output of videos promoting the stepped-up Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan. In a shocking example last week, a video obtained by the Associated Press showed a boy beheading a Pakistani militant accused of betraying a top Taliban leader.
Azeem said the advent of the Internet and the ease with which pirate radio operators can change frequencies made it impossible to clamp down completely.
The website affiliated with the Al Qaida-linked group Jaish-e Mohammed - which was banned in 2002 - still lavishes praises on those who fight jihad.
One recent post by a writer identified as Abu Khabib Mardanvi urged youngsters to shun the “dirty and useless game” of cricket and opt instead for militancy. “I pray that God may staunch the love of the bat from the hearts of today’s youth and bless them with love for the gun,” he wrote. ap
ISLAMABAD: A newspaper warns that Jews and Christians are engaged in “genocide” against Muslims. A website says children should love guns instead of cricket. A video shows a child beheading a militant accused of betraying his comrades.
Despite government promises to crack down, hate-filled jihadist propaganda is thriving in Pakistan, especially in print and on the Internet. Critics say it is contributing to the demonisation of the West and the “Talibanisation” of Pakistan.
Some of the most vitriolic material is produced by affiliates of supposedly banned groups.
“I feel it has increased and the tone has become more hostile,” said Mohammad Shahzad, who runs a media monitoring service in Pakistan for clients including think tanks and embassies. “The level of extremism and fanaticism has gone up.”
Shahzad said there are no statistics on the output of extremist groups. However, examples are plentiful.
Tayyabat, a magazine for women published by Jamaatud Dawa says Pakistan’s support of the US war on terror amounts to surrendering to an America bent on eliminating Muslims.
“A white flag will not put out the fire from the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. They are thirsty for the Muslim’s blood,” an article in February said.
A government ban against the al-Rashid trust, an Islamic charity proscribed in February for alleged links with terrorist groups, has failed to stop the associated Daily Islam newspaper from publishing in Karachi. Its content is not overtly militant, but often inflammatory.
“Jews, Christians and their allies are engaged in genocide of Muslims but Islam is spreading and its enemies are losing their nerve,” a recent article said.
Hardline religious propaganda is still far from the mainstream in Pakistan, where the thriving private media have, in particular, revolutionised TV with more liberal programming. But as in other Muslim countries, the call for jihad, or holy war, against the West has also gained resonance here amid widespread anger over the US-led invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Abdullah Muntazir, spokesman for Jamaatud Dawa, defended the group as a peaceful organisation exercising its right to freedom of expression. He complained that anyone publishing anti-American material in Pakistan is immediately accused of “promoting jihad”.
But many observers worry that Pakistan’s military-dominated government is doing too little to prevent extremists from publishing incendiary material that potentially drums up recruits and donations for militant attacks in Pakistan and beyond.
“There are laws against hate speech. They haven’t even applied those,” said Samina Ahmed, an analyst for the International Crisis Group.
“The fact that there are no curbs on them (extremists) or that the government backs down the moment there is the slightest resistance on the part of Islamic organisations has encouraged them to circulate their message.”
Tariq Azeem, minister of state for information, defended the government’s record against extremist media. He said any media promoting violence, including suicide bombings and sectarian attacks, were “totally illegal and will not be tolerated.”
Some action has been taken.
Markets in key cities such as Peshawar and Karachi that openly stocked jihadist videos a year ago no longer do so - although some merchants still whisper they can get them on request.
That is despite an increased output of videos promoting the stepped-up Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan. In a shocking example last week, a video obtained by the Associated Press showed a boy beheading a Pakistani militant accused of betraying a top Taliban leader.
Azeem said the advent of the Internet and the ease with which pirate radio operators can change frequencies made it impossible to clamp down completely.
The website affiliated with the Al Qaida-linked group Jaish-e Mohammed - which was banned in 2002 - still lavishes praises on those who fight jihad.
One recent post by a writer identified as Abu Khabib Mardanvi urged youngsters to shun the “dirty and useless game” of cricket and opt instead for militancy. “I pray that God may staunch the love of the bat from the hearts of today’s youth and bless them with love for the gun,” he wrote. ap
#192 Posted by Karachi01 on April 27, 2007 11:51:30 pm
Those who can read Urdu, kindly visit the following liknk & read the very interesting article
published on 5th April ``Hikmat kee zaroorat``.
http://kashifhafeez.com/mazameen.php
Thanks ! Happy reading
published on 5th April ``Hikmat kee zaroorat``.
http://kashifhafeez.com/mazameen.php
Thanks ! Happy reading
#191 Posted by arjun2 on April 27, 2007 11:41:03 am
#190 by SaintSoprano on April 27, 2007 9:22am PT
Maybe you should have had a we`ll-do-whatever-is-best-for-Pakistan doctrine..
The fact is that you signed up on the US side of the cold war because you expected to get arms and aid that you would then use to dislodge the cowardly bania out of kashmir and plant the paki flag in srinigar...
Maybe you should have had a we`ll-do-whatever-is-best-for-Pakistan doctrine..
The fact is that you signed up on the US side of the cold war because you expected to get arms and aid that you would then use to dislodge the cowardly bania out of kashmir and plant the paki flag in srinigar...
#190 Posted by SaintSoprano on April 27, 2007 9:22:08 am
Perhaps you know there is something called Truman Doctrine of March 12th, 1947 (Truman was a US president during 2nd world war). Truman Doctrine was an American foreign policy designed to contain Communism. Aside from helping Greece and Turkey with economic and military aid to prevent them from falling into Soviet block, it was decided that Islamic organizations in every risk country should be provided economic aid to counter Godless Soviet influence.
Jamal Abdul Nasir of Egypt, Musaddiq of Iran, Baath party of Iraq, Syria (almost all of them were secular socialist democrats influenced by Soviet Union) - Under Truman Doctrine, Ikhwaan-ul-Musleeman, Syed Qutb, Saud (now Saudi Arabia), Wahaab - they were all strengthened to weaken socialists` effect in the middle east. It`s no coincidence that most of these socialist leaders were killed at different points. Now that we see that once democratic secular socialist middle east (only in 50s/60s) is now Islamized monarchies or dictatorships. Thanks to Truman Doctrine.
When Pakistan came into being in 47, there was the same danger of it falling under Soviet influence, hence, under Truman Doctrine, US backed the religious forces in Pakistan as it was doing around the world and turned Pakistan from a secular state to a Islamic state to counter Russians. Then came Afghanistan War, General Zia`s era of active Islamization. Rest is history and everybody who has read even one non-text book knows about it.
It`s so funny to see that US is now desperately trying to clean after its own poop that it created under Truman Doctrine.
The timing when Liaquet Ali Khan made that speech of objective resolution is pretty interesting.. only months after Jinnah died and one and a half year after Truman signed off that foreign policy.
Here is a wiki reference on Truman Doctrine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine
Jamal Abdul Nasir of Egypt, Musaddiq of Iran, Baath party of Iraq, Syria (almost all of them were secular socialist democrats influenced by Soviet Union) - Under Truman Doctrine, Ikhwaan-ul-Musleeman, Syed Qutb, Saud (now Saudi Arabia), Wahaab - they were all strengthened to weaken socialists` effect in the middle east. It`s no coincidence that most of these socialist leaders were killed at different points. Now that we see that once democratic secular socialist middle east (only in 50s/60s) is now Islamized monarchies or dictatorships. Thanks to Truman Doctrine.
When Pakistan came into being in 47, there was the same danger of it falling under Soviet influence, hence, under Truman Doctrine, US backed the religious forces in Pakistan as it was doing around the world and turned Pakistan from a secular state to a Islamic state to counter Russians. Then came Afghanistan War, General Zia`s era of active Islamization. Rest is history and everybody who has read even one non-text book knows about it.
It`s so funny to see that US is now desperately trying to clean after its own poop that it created under Truman Doctrine.
The timing when Liaquet Ali Khan made that speech of objective resolution is pretty interesting.. only months after Jinnah died and one and a half year after Truman signed off that foreign policy.
Here is a wiki reference on Truman Doctrine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine
#189 Posted by harish_hyd on April 27, 2007 2:11:08 am
#188 by zeemax
If you mean that the Sun and Moon are both stars but Sun appears bigger (actually it appears the same size as the moon) and brighter because it is closer to earth than the moon, I give up :)
Zee bhai, where did I claim that the moon is a star? I only said that the Sun is just one among the millions of stars out there, but appears bigger and brighter because it is the closest to us.
If you mean that the Sun and Moon are both stars but Sun appears bigger (actually it appears the same size as the moon) and brighter because it is closer to earth than the moon, I give up :)
Zee bhai, where did I claim that the moon is a star? I only said that the Sun is just one among the millions of stars out there, but appears bigger and brighter because it is the closest to us.
#188 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 12:40:09 am
#187 by harish_hyd,
The Sun need not necessarily be the biggest or the brightest star, it is just that because it is the closest to the Earth, it appears bigger and brighter than any other star we see.
If you mean that the Sun and Moon are both stars but Sun appears bigger (actually it appears the same size as the moon) and brighter because it is closer to earth than the moon, I give up :)
The Sun need not necessarily be the biggest or the brightest star, it is just that because it is the closest to the Earth, it appears bigger and brighter than any other star we see.
If you mean that the Sun and Moon are both stars but Sun appears bigger (actually it appears the same size as the moon) and brighter because it is closer to earth than the moon, I give up :)
#187 Posted by harish_hyd on April 26, 2007 10:12:26 pm
#178 by zeemax
Yaar Harish, what`s your argument?
Zee bhai, my argument is that the Sun is just like millions (perhaps billions or trillions) of other stars in the Solar System that emanate light. The Sun need not necessarily be the biggest or the brightest star, it is just that because it is the closest to the Earth, it appears bigger and brighter than any other star we see. Distant stars that may be millions of light years away from the Earth emanate light too, and the tiny specks of light rays that we see may have started millions of years before you and I were even born.
This is what I learnt at school and from Carl Sagan`s Cosmos (here I must confess that I haven`t read too many other books on the subject) of which I was an avid viewer, I haven`t ever read or heard anything that contradicted the above. But when I read what you wrote, I must say I was surprised. Just for a moment, I thought maybe my eyes were deceiving me :-)
Yaar Harish, what`s your argument?
Zee bhai, my argument is that the Sun is just like millions (perhaps billions or trillions) of other stars in the Solar System that emanate light. The Sun need not necessarily be the biggest or the brightest star, it is just that because it is the closest to the Earth, it appears bigger and brighter than any other star we see. Distant stars that may be millions of light years away from the Earth emanate light too, and the tiny specks of light rays that we see may have started millions of years before you and I were even born.
This is what I learnt at school and from Carl Sagan`s Cosmos (here I must confess that I haven`t read too many other books on the subject) of which I was an avid viewer, I haven`t ever read or heard anything that contradicted the above. But when I read what you wrote, I must say I was surprised. Just for a moment, I thought maybe my eyes were deceiving me :-)
#186 Posted by arjun2 on April 26, 2007 9:27:46 pm
#178 by zeemax on April 26, 2007 5:13am PT
why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place)
Why is zeemax`s house called zeemax`s house and not a human house? either people aren`t getting the joke or you`re dumber that we thought you were before....
why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place)
Why is zeemax`s house called zeemax`s house and not a human house? either people aren`t getting the joke or you`re dumber that we thought you were before....
#185 Posted by teshah on April 26, 2007 8:23:28 pm
Re: # 159
Itne kion bichhe jaate ho raqeeb-e-roosiah?
Itne kion bichhe jaate ho raqeeb-e-roosiah?
#184 Posted by echoboom on April 26, 2007 5:28:40 pm
Interview With Ex-Taliban Foreign Minister
By
Chris Sands
A site of a huge blast
in an ammunition shop in Kabul,
March 14, 2007.(Reuters photo)
There was a time in recent memory when the people here had nothing but God and a Kalashnikov to keep them safe. In the 1990s Afghanistan was imploding but few in the West cared. Those with power abused it, those with wealth flaunted it, and everyone else lived in the knowledge that each morning could be their last.
Back then, Mullah Wakil Ahmad Mutawakil was just another young man whose father had been killed during the Soviet occupation. He needed a reason to hope and one day he found it. By his mid-20s he was at the forefront of a movement that first stabilised the country, then allegedly helped bring war to America and changed the way Islam was perceived across the world.
“At the time I started with the Taliban every village had its own government and very dangerous issues threatened Afghanistan,” he said. “Every government was making a new currency, every government had its own ministry of defence, everyone had their own private airports.
``We had no other purpose, it was just to give the country freedom. We did not represent any other government.``
“For the purpose of stopping the division of the country and solving the problems inside the country ? improving the transportation system and saving innocent people from warlords and their rockets ? the Taliban movement was set up. And a thousand people like me joined it. We had no other purpose, it was just to give the country freedom. We did not represent any other government and we did not stand for anyone else.”
The kind of impoverished, deeply religious young men still found across Afghanistan formed the Taliban. They were initially welcomed as saviours by a population tired of having old Mujahideen commanders kill and kidnap at will.
``We wanted a peaceful Afghanistan and good relations with other countries,`` Mutawakil said. ``Now people think the Taliban wanted to make a country full of terrorists, but we didn`t want that.``
Less than two years after capturing Kandahar, they rolled into Kabul, bringing a fragile peace to the devastated city and imposing their strict interpretation of the Quran on its people.
With Mutawakil working as spokesman for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar and later as foreign minister, the new government banned music and kite flying, sanctioned capital punishment and forced all men to grow beards.
``We hoped our laws would bring freedom to everyone in every part of their life, but we did not have lots of facilities,`` Mutawakil said. ``Nowadays lots of countries are giving donations to Afghanistan, but at that time they were only wagging their fingers at us and complaining.``
The most notorious edicts were aimed at the female population. Women were not allowed out alone and when they were in public they had to cover their entire bodies. It was said that girls were stopped from going to school.
“We are against co-education, but we are happy with separate education,” Mutawakil insisted. “For example, in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries people are studying separately, which is according to Islamic law. If women wear the hijab they can go to school.”
Hard Times in Power
``The only solution was for the Arabs to live here quietly, safely, as immigrants ... not as fighters.``
After capturing the south and Kabul, the Taliban pushed onwards in an effort to establish control over the whole country. A movement of rival warlords known as the Northern Alliance put up fierce resistance and appealed for outside support in its struggle against the new government. Untold numbers of people were maimed and killed by both sides, many of them civilians.
But the West only really began to take notice of what was happening when Osama bin Laden returned to Afghanistan, a country he had helped liberate from Soviet occupation while fighting alongside other jihadists.
The Saudi was now regarded as a terrorist by Washington and he soon became a close ally of the Taliban, encouraging more foreign militants to come and join those who had remained in the country since the 1980s.
“We did not hate them, we had a sort of love in our hearts for them. But it was not worth the price for us ? it was not worth putting our lives in danger, which is what happened,” Mutawakil said.
“The only solution was for the Arabs to live here quietly, safely, as immigrants. They should have lived here as immigrants, not as fighters.”
Mutawakil denied the Taliban had any prior knowledge of 9/11 and he believes the US may already have been planning to overthrow the regime before New York and Washington were hit.
Four months after the US-led invasion of Afghanistan started, the foreign minister handed himself over to the local authorities. He was held for a night and then transferred to American custody, where he remained for most of the next two years.
``I think inside the Afghan government there are people who are far worse criminals than the Taliban.``
It is not easy to meet Mutawakil now. Private security guards stand watch outside his home and he claims the government keeps track of his every move.
On a freezing cold January morning he agreed to this exclusive interview. A friendly bespectacled man, he talked in Pashto for almost two hours about his life and the difficulties Afghanistan faces.
“All of our problems were not solved under the Taliban,” he said. “But the interesting thing from that time, and lots of people are remembering this now, is the tight security there was in the country.
“When the new regime came people had lots of hope, but one day they found out nothing was happening and they had even lost the tight security they had under the Taliban.”
New Return?
``The biggest problem now faced by the world is that it does not know the exact definition of terrorism``About 4,000 people are estimated to have died in the insurgency last year, a body count roughly four times higher than in 2005 and the worst since the invasion. Indiscriminate suicide attacks are common now, as are reports of NATO-led forces killing civilians in air strikes and shootings. The Taliban already control areas close to Kabul city and further violence is expected following the winter.
Mutawakil believes the only way to stop the situation escalating into a nationwide jihad is for the Karzai administration and its allies to open high-level talks with the insurgents.
“Now the foreigners think all the Taliban are terrorists,” he said. “I think inside the Afghan government there are people who are far worse criminals than the Taliban, they have committed many crimes.
“So the best way is to forgive everyone. It’s better to start negotiations. Of course there will be problems as the foreigners don’t like the Taliban and call them terrorists, and the Taliban don’t like the foreigners, but the best way is to start negotiations. By negotiations we can move forward step by step.
“The biggest problem now faced by the world is that it does not know the exact definition of terrorism; who is a terrorist, where are the terrorists. I think that terrorism can be in every society, it’s not unique to any tribe, to any religion, to any person –you can have it everywhere.”
But with NATO determined to defeat the insurgency by force, corrupt warlords still holding the reins of power and more heavy fighting due in the spring, it looks like the kind of anger that first launched the Taliban will explode into the open once again.
“There is no hope for the people - their hearts are broken,” Mutawakil said.
here to reach him.
#183 Posted by AlephNull on April 26, 2007 5:19:31 pm
harish_hyd #175, #177
Re: zeemax #174, #176, #178
It is a great credit to Chowk that it attracts famous scientists of the caliber of zeemax to drop in here and get the rest of us up to speed on undergraduate material. BTW, check out Olbers’ paradox if you don’t know about it already.
Re: zeemax #174, #176, #178
It is a great credit to Chowk that it attracts famous scientists of the caliber of zeemax to drop in here and get the rest of us up to speed on undergraduate material. BTW, check out Olbers’ paradox if you don’t know about it already.
#182 Posted by echoboom on April 26, 2007 3:04:24 pm
ISLAM
Are You Nuts? A Woman Converts To Islam
Rabi`a Frank is a 31-year-old Dutch woman who converted to Islam in 1994, changing her first name from Rebecca.
Reuters
Rabi`a Frank is a 31-year-old Dutch woman who converted to Islam in 1994, changing her first name from Rebecca.
She is married to a Moroccan man who grew up in the Netherlands, and they have three sons.
In 2005 she began to wear the niqab face veil and is one of about only 50 women in total to do so in the Netherlands, according to estimates by the Dutch Muslim community.
The Netherlands is home to almost 1 million Muslims, or 5.4 percent of the population -- the second highest density of Muslims after France.
Bubbly and spirited, Rabi`a spoke to Reuters in her home, where she unveiled to reveal a blonde pony tail and western clothes.
``I was young when I became interested in Islam and when you are young, nothing is strange, you just dive in. It is a bit of a cliche -- I had a Moroccan boyfriend. At first I wanted to learn more about his culture. I got out library books about Morocco and then I got to Islam. I read about it in secret. I didn`t want to give him the impression that I was doing it for him.
``I first read the Koran in Dutch translation and it just got into my heart. It felt good, I could relate to it, I understood and it touched me.
``I heard of a Muslim centre in The Hague and I went there every week. Then one day the imam asked me if wanted to join some others taking their Shahadah (proclamation of faith in God). I gulped. `Already?` I thought. I didn`t think I knew enough yet, but then I agreed.
``I wore this ugly scarf I remember, I just grabbed one from the closet. After the Shahadah I couldn`t stop crying. It was very emotional.
``When my mother heard of my conversion she rushed into my room screaming and crying, yelling: `Why did you do that, what are you thinking?` It was awful. I thought to myself: `That reaction is exactly why I didn`t tell you.`
``Wearing the hijab felt like a form of liberation. Every day I had had to walk past some builders and they would whistle at me. Then the morning I walked past in my hijab they didn`t.
``On the one hand I felt so happy, thinking, `Finally, this is who I am,` but on the other hand I wanted to say `Hey, look, I am still the same girl underneath.`
``It took me years to work out how to tie the scarf. When I first converted I took old Turkish and Moroccan women as a model. I wore those typical long coats -- and ugh -- it just wasn`t me. I felt insecure especially when people said, `Look, a Turk with blue eyes!` I didn`t know how to dress.
``There is a joke of the `new Muslim tramp`. You are so used to wearing jeans and caring about fashion, and suddenly you abandon these concerns and start to wear these mixed-up clothes. Most converts go through this `tramp` phase, I think before they find a style.
``I didn`t have a lot of contact with native Muslims at first. My family-in-law thought that as I wasn`t Moroccan I was no good. It took me years to prove myself to them and I think now I am the one who takes religion most seriously.
``I feel a lot of respect from native Muslim women. They think, `wow -- you are Dutch yet you dress like that.`
``I can`t really pinpoint when I first started thinking I should wear the niqab. But when I first became a Muslim I was in love with Islam. I was like a sponge, everything was Islam, Islam, Islam. After a few years that feeling became less intense yet I wanted it again -- I wanted to do something more for Allah. Seeing other women in a niqab touched something in me. I told my husband I wanted to wear it too. `Are you nuts?` he said. He was not happy about it, but my feeling didn`t go away.
``Wearing the niqab has nothing to do with being ashamed of your femininity or being oppressed. It is just a way to express more love to God.
``It is nonsense to suggest that by wearing a niqab I don`t take part in society. When you walk through the streets or go shopping, how much contact do you really have even without a niqab? It is not as if you talk to everyone you meet. A woman once said `I can`t make contact with you,` but I thought, `well did we ever make contact before?`
``I`ve joked I had a gun or a bomb under my robe in my rebellion days. I still have rebellion days sometimes. I always say something back if someone makes a comment about me. Part of it is that people don`t see you as human. So if you respond they are shocked. And if that response comes in good Dutch then they are really stunned. I think I have to try and educate people a bit.
``Some people think converts are just looking for any religion. If that was so I would choose an easier one. Islam is a beautiful religion but it is not always so easy. You have to battle with yourself a lot.``
#181 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2007 11:02:19 am
Re: # 167 Mantolives
``I`d like you to show me when and where the 1985-1988 assembly voted to omit the word freely... ``
The elections of 1985 were held in February; in November the Jonejo Assemblies passed the 8th Constitutional Ammendment, which provided constitutional protection to all the actions and constitutional ammendments done during the Martial Law. Hence thru 8th ammendment Jonejo Assemblies also sanctified the inclusion of Objective Resolution into the constitution with *** instead of ``freely`` into it.
Yes there is an argument on legitimacy of such ammendments, but that was not your quaetion.
``I`d like you to show me when and where the 1985-1988 assembly voted to omit the word freely... ``
The elections of 1985 were held in February; in November the Jonejo Assemblies passed the 8th Constitutional Ammendment, which provided constitutional protection to all the actions and constitutional ammendments done during the Martial Law. Hence thru 8th ammendment Jonejo Assemblies also sanctified the inclusion of Objective Resolution into the constitution with *** instead of ``freely`` into it.
Yes there is an argument on legitimacy of such ammendments, but that was not your quaetion.
#180 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 26, 2007 6:51:23 am
#174
``light that reaches the planet earth is from the (i.e. our solar system`s) Sun and it takes about 8 minutes? Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat. He seems to believe light travels from the end of the universe to planet earth unimpeded and zigzagging between black holes. Or does he even know these exist? I mean, this is undergrad stuff. ``
#178
``Bhai, the Sun `emanates` light, stars don`t. That`s the difference. The stars you see are just `this` solar system`s stars (and you may ponder upon why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place) which merely reflect sun`s rays around which all these revolve. All human perception begins when `this` solar system`s sun`s light reaches planet earth which itself is a `star` (and a very minor one) and does not emanate light but reflects it, and it takes eight minutes. ``
#179
``and moon is just another star .. it`s just the closest to earth so it`s the brightest. No other reason``
Zeemax,
That`s stellar knowledge. kaalchakra wasn`t wrong about you being smart.
Take care,
Rafi
``light that reaches the planet earth is from the (i.e. our solar system`s) Sun and it takes about 8 minutes? Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat. He seems to believe light travels from the end of the universe to planet earth unimpeded and zigzagging between black holes. Or does he even know these exist? I mean, this is undergrad stuff. ``
#178
``Bhai, the Sun `emanates` light, stars don`t. That`s the difference. The stars you see are just `this` solar system`s stars (and you may ponder upon why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place) which merely reflect sun`s rays around which all these revolve. All human perception begins when `this` solar system`s sun`s light reaches planet earth which itself is a `star` (and a very minor one) and does not emanate light but reflects it, and it takes eight minutes. ``
#179
``and moon is just another star .. it`s just the closest to earth so it`s the brightest. No other reason``
Zeemax,
That`s stellar knowledge. kaalchakra wasn`t wrong about you being smart.
Take care,
Rafi
#179 Posted by zeemax on April 26, 2007 5:15:56 am
contd .. missed this:
... and moon is just another star .. it`s just the closest to earth so it`s the brightest. No other reason ..
... and moon is just another star .. it`s just the closest to earth so it`s the brightest. No other reason ..
#178 Posted by zeemax on April 26, 2007 5:13:58 am
#177 by harish_hyd,
Yaar Harish, what`s your argument?
Bhai, the Sun `emanates` light, stars don`t. That`s the difference. The stars you see are just `this` solar system`s stars (and you may ponder upon why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place) which merely reflect sun`s rays around which all these revolve. All human perception begins when `this` solar system`s sun`s light reaches planet earth which itself is a `star` (and a very minor one) and does not emanate light but reflects it, and it takes eight minutes. That`s all that I`m saying.
Now, what`s your argument?
Yaar Harish, what`s your argument?
Bhai, the Sun `emanates` light, stars don`t. That`s the difference. The stars you see are just `this` solar system`s stars (and you may ponder upon why it`s called a `solar` system and not a `star` system in the first place) which merely reflect sun`s rays around which all these revolve. All human perception begins when `this` solar system`s sun`s light reaches planet earth which itself is a `star` (and a very minor one) and does not emanate light but reflects it, and it takes eight minutes. That`s all that I`m saying.
Now, what`s your argument?
#177 Posted by harish_hyd on April 26, 2007 5:00:28 am
#176 by zeemax
Isn`t the sun a star too? I thought only the moon reflected the Sun`s light.
Isn`t the sun a star too? I thought only the moon reflected the Sun`s light.
#176 Posted by zeemax on April 26, 2007 4:54:01 am
#175 by harish_hyd,
I am even more amazed now. Please look up on whether stars emanate light or reflect it.
Regards.
I am even more amazed now. Please look up on whether stars emanate light or reflect it.
Regards.
#175 Posted by harish_hyd on April 26, 2007 4:45:44 am
#174 by zeemax
Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat.
What about the stars that we see at night? Isn`t that light too?
Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat.
What about the stars that we see at night? Isn`t that light too?
#174 Posted by zeemax on April 26, 2007 4:39:25 am
#173 by echoboom,
Oh my God, I just can`t believe this. He bases his entire argument on the speed of light measured @ 186000 miles/second taking 18-20 billion years to reach earth and therefore claims to know the size of the universe. I`m shocked. Where did he read that?
Is he unaware that the only light that reaches the planet earth is from the (i.e. our solar system`s) Sun and it takes about 8 minutes? Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat. He seems to believe light travels from the end of the universe to planet earth unimpeded and zigzagging between black holes. Or does he even know these exist? I mean, this is undergrad stuff.
But the most disappointing was when he was flummoxed by the questioner`s query that aren`t Prophets free from limits of time & space and gave Muhammad`s `Mairaaj` as an example, and he completely sidestepped the issue without daring to deny `Mairaaj` (he can`t because he claims to be a Muslim) and rambled into how his calculations were proof Issa can`t be in the fourth sky, without giving the questioner any further opportunity, then asked him to sit down.
Arrey Bhai, the questioner had asked about Mairaaj, not Issa being in the fourth sky.
Is that all? Not that I ever imagined there would be anything more, but still ..... now I know where sattar2`s arguments come from and why he keeps harping upon Issa in the clouds.
Oh my God, I just can`t believe this. He bases his entire argument on the speed of light measured @ 186000 miles/second taking 18-20 billion years to reach earth and therefore claims to know the size of the universe. I`m shocked. Where did he read that?
Is he unaware that the only light that reaches the planet earth is from the (i.e. our solar system`s) Sun and it takes about 8 minutes? Light from anything beyond the Sun is either eaten up by black holes in-between, or simply bounces off, and whatever remains is mingled with the sunlight and reaches the earth in 8 minutes flat. He seems to believe light travels from the end of the universe to planet earth unimpeded and zigzagging between black holes. Or does he even know these exist? I mean, this is undergrad stuff.
But the most disappointing was when he was flummoxed by the questioner`s query that aren`t Prophets free from limits of time & space and gave Muhammad`s `Mairaaj` as an example, and he completely sidestepped the issue without daring to deny `Mairaaj` (he can`t because he claims to be a Muslim) and rambled into how his calculations were proof Issa can`t be in the fourth sky, without giving the questioner any further opportunity, then asked him to sit down.
Arrey Bhai, the questioner had asked about Mairaaj, not Issa being in the fourth sky.
Is that all? Not that I ever imagined there would be anything more, but still ..... now I know where sattar2`s arguments come from and why he keeps harping upon Issa in the clouds.
#173 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 6:33:47 pm
Especially for Zeemax and Kalachakra.
This is really a Howler
Best Comedy Series on Youtube.
This is really a Howler
Best Comedy Series on Youtube.
#171 Posted by ballukhan on April 25, 2007 4:09:24 pm
Congrats to my mujahideen bros...........the battle has finally been won..........Shariat would soon be enforced in Pakistan........the Talibanization is complete!!
http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/25/top2.htm
Govt accepts Lal Masjid demands: All issues settled: Shujaat
By Syed Irfan Raza
ISLAMABAD, April 24: The government has agreed to accept all demands put forward by the Lal Masjid management, including the enforcement of Sharia in the country.
The second round of talks started on Tuesday night when Pakistan Muslim League president Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain paid a surprise visit to Lal Masjid and met its in-charge Maulana Abdul Aziz and deputy in-charge Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi.
The PML chief assured the mosque administration and girl students of Jamia Hasfa that the government was ready to accept all their demands, including the enforcement of Sharia
http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/25/top2.htm
Govt accepts Lal Masjid demands: All issues settled: Shujaat
By Syed Irfan Raza
ISLAMABAD, April 24: The government has agreed to accept all demands put forward by the Lal Masjid management, including the enforcement of Sharia in the country.
The second round of talks started on Tuesday night when Pakistan Muslim League president Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain paid a surprise visit to Lal Masjid and met its in-charge Maulana Abdul Aziz and deputy in-charge Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi.
The PML chief assured the mosque administration and girl students of Jamia Hasfa that the government was ready to accept all their demands, including the enforcement of Sharia
#170 Posted by syed512 on April 24, 2007 11:42:25 pm
Hi friends,
The discussion is going on very long. plz see this clip for conclusion.......
http://pakistaniat.com/2006/06/11/adil-najams-pakistan-the-video/
The discussion is going on very long. plz see this clip for conclusion.......
http://pakistaniat.com/2006/06/11/adil-najams-pakistan-the-video/
#169 Posted by teshah on April 24, 2007 7:13:56 pm
Re: # 161
Zeemax
Why to become a Muslim when I am a born one?
Not at least in the sense described in Sura Hujrat:
Baquol Quran Musalman ka to matlab maghloob insan he. Ayat 14, soorae hujurat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
``Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne ki imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho `Musalman` yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo Allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq Allah bakhshne wala mehrban he.`` (Pickthall)
BTW, have you heard the following couplet by Josh Malihabadi?
``Momin nah kare sajidah to Muslim nah rahe
Aur Aarif jo kare sajidah to kaafar ho jaae``
Zeemax
Why to become a Muslim when I am a born one?
Not at least in the sense described in Sura Hujrat:
Baquol Quran Musalman ka to matlab maghloob insan he. Ayat 14, soorae hujurat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
``Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne ki imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho `Musalman` yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo Allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq Allah bakhshne wala mehrban he.`` (Pickthall)
BTW, have you heard the following couplet by Josh Malihabadi?
``Momin nah kare sajidah to Muslim nah rahe
Aur Aarif jo kare sajidah to kaafar ho jaae``
#168 Posted by MantoLives on April 24, 2007 2:51:03 am
Majumdar...
The said state would have to be in limits of what is acceptable. Thus discrimination is not acceptable.
The said state would have to be in limits of what is acceptable. Thus discrimination is not acceptable.
#167 Posted by MantoLives on April 24, 2007 2:50:15 am
Urstruly,
I`d like you to show me when and where the 1985-1988 assembly voted to omit the word freely...
As far as I know ... the word was absent from the text appended to the constitution.
#166 Posted by bbabu on April 23, 2007 10:30:10 pm
Re: # 23
Agreed. India (or Indira) was opportunistic in 1971. It is silly to suggest West Pakistan could have retained control over East Pakistan. Sooner or later the writing was on the wall.
Agreed. India (or Indira) was opportunistic in 1971. It is silly to suggest West Pakistan could have retained control over East Pakistan. Sooner or later the writing was on the wall.
#165 Posted by bbabu on April 23, 2007 10:28:22 pm
Re: # 17
Stable peace loving democratic Pakistan is in India`s interest. I would not say if Pakistan lands in trouble India is in trouble too. India is too big to be slowed down by Pakistan.
Stable peace loving democratic Pakistan is in India`s interest. I would not say if Pakistan lands in trouble India is in trouble too. India is too big to be slowed down by Pakistan.
#164 Posted by PewResearch on April 23, 2007 7:51:57 pm
Dear Friends:
In a selfless act of courage, a Pakistani named Ghufran Haider, saved the lives of hundreds of worshipers by throwing himself on a suicide bomber in a mosque in Karachi.
He was severely injured, was hospitalized and has now recovered. He is now in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates on temporary visit. He is afraid to go back to Pakistan as he expects to be almost certainly killed by Sunni militants.
Will some public-spirited American journalists kindly interview him in Dubai? To get contact information, please email Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy at sharmeenobaid@hotmail.com
This appears to be a fit case for influential Americans to bring the matter urgently to the attention of the State Department in order to ensure that he is granted asylum in the US. His travel visa in Dubai expires in two weeks or so.
Please read the appeal of Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy, which is reproduced below, from the SAJA (South Asia Journalists Association`s) discussion forum.
Thanks!
Original Message
From: ``Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy``
To: ``SAJA DISC``
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: [saja-disc] Urgent: I need your help
Dear All,
I am writing to you with an urgent matter. Two year ago I did a film for
Channel 4 called ``Pakistan`s Double Game``
http://www.sharmeenobaidfilms.com/pakdoublegame.html
In the film I profiled a young man named Ghufran Haider, a shia who saved the lives of hundreds of worshippers by throwing himself on a suicide bomber in a mosque in Karachi.
He was the first Pakistani ever to stop a suicide bombing and it took a lot of courage on his part to do so.
He was severely injured and his (poor) family had to bear the cost of his operations.
This year, Ghufran`s testimony in court led to the death penalty being awarded to two of the suicide bomber`s accompalices. Now, his family is constantly being threatened and as usual the Pakistani government has done nothing to help him or his family.
He managed to leave Pakistan a few days ago and is currently in Dubai on a visitor visa which expires in 2 weeks. If he goes back to Pakistan, he will almost certainly be killed by the Sunni militants.
He is reaching out to me for help but I dont know how I can assist him, given that I am myself a citizen of Pakistan and not sure where he can claim asylum.
Pakistanis in general never take risks, they seldom give testimony in court and almost never risk their lives, so I feel compelled to help him...
If any of you have any ideas, or know of anyone he can contact who can help him gain asylum, please please get in touch with me...This young man`s life is at stake and for those of us who are fighting againt terrorism, we know how important it is that a voice like his is saved...
Please email me..
Thank you
Sharmeen
Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy
www.sharmeenobaidfilms.com
In a selfless act of courage, a Pakistani named Ghufran Haider, saved the lives of hundreds of worshipers by throwing himself on a suicide bomber in a mosque in Karachi.
He was severely injured, was hospitalized and has now recovered. He is now in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates on temporary visit. He is afraid to go back to Pakistan as he expects to be almost certainly killed by Sunni militants.
Will some public-spirited American journalists kindly interview him in Dubai? To get contact information, please email Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy at sharmeenobaid@hotmail.com
This appears to be a fit case for influential Americans to bring the matter urgently to the attention of the State Department in order to ensure that he is granted asylum in the US. His travel visa in Dubai expires in two weeks or so.
Please read the appeal of Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy, which is reproduced below, from the SAJA (South Asia Journalists Association`s) discussion forum.
Thanks!
Original Message
From: ``Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy``
To: ``SAJA DISC``
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: [saja-disc] Urgent: I need your help
Dear All,
I am writing to you with an urgent matter. Two year ago I did a film for
Channel 4 called ``Pakistan`s Double Game``
http://www.sharmeenobaidfilms.com/pakdoublegame.html
In the film I profiled a young man named Ghufran Haider, a shia who saved the lives of hundreds of worshippers by throwing himself on a suicide bomber in a mosque in Karachi.
He was the first Pakistani ever to stop a suicide bombing and it took a lot of courage on his part to do so.
He was severely injured and his (poor) family had to bear the cost of his operations.
This year, Ghufran`s testimony in court led to the death penalty being awarded to two of the suicide bomber`s accompalices. Now, his family is constantly being threatened and as usual the Pakistani government has done nothing to help him or his family.
He managed to leave Pakistan a few days ago and is currently in Dubai on a visitor visa which expires in 2 weeks. If he goes back to Pakistan, he will almost certainly be killed by the Sunni militants.
He is reaching out to me for help but I dont know how I can assist him, given that I am myself a citizen of Pakistan and not sure where he can claim asylum.
Pakistanis in general never take risks, they seldom give testimony in court and almost never risk their lives, so I feel compelled to help him...
If any of you have any ideas, or know of anyone he can contact who can help him gain asylum, please please get in touch with me...This young man`s life is at stake and for those of us who are fighting againt terrorism, we know how important it is that a voice like his is saved...
Please email me..
Thank you
Sharmeen
Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy
www.sharmeenobaidfilms.com
#163 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 23, 2007 12:54:11 pm
Re: # 152
Salim_Chauhan,
Thanks for your feedback.
You say that Zia is to be blamed for the current state of affairs. I am of opinion, though, that the necessary ingredients were already there. Zia/USA only gave them an impetus to come together with the rallying cry of Afghan Jihad. Zia didn’t give religious organizations like Jamaat Islami the muscle. They already had it which is evident from the fact that even the so-called left in Pakistan had been flirting occasionally with religious organization pre-Zia. Zia just gave them a conducive environment to freely flex their muscle.
Thanks again.
Rafi
Salim_Chauhan,
Thanks for your feedback.
You say that Zia is to be blamed for the current state of affairs. I am of opinion, though, that the necessary ingredients were already there. Zia/USA only gave them an impetus to come together with the rallying cry of Afghan Jihad. Zia didn’t give religious organizations like Jamaat Islami the muscle. They already had it which is evident from the fact that even the so-called left in Pakistan had been flirting occasionally with religious organization pre-Zia. Zia just gave them a conducive environment to freely flex their muscle.
Thanks again.
Rafi
#162 Posted by zeemax on April 23, 2007 11:48:01 am
Masadi iLog of today:
If Chowk censored it for FP, please post it as an iLog on the VT massacre and the reasons for it. I`m sure Chowk-Staff has a reason for not posting it on FP, and I trust Chowk-Staff`s judgment. So should you.
Regards.
If Chowk censored it for FP, please post it as an iLog on the VT massacre and the reasons for it. I`m sure Chowk-Staff has a reason for not posting it on FP, and I trust Chowk-Staff`s judgment. So should you.
Regards.
#161 Posted by zeemax on April 23, 2007 11:10:33 am
#158 by teshah,
No. There`s no Law against blaspheming against God. Do you know why?
If you ever find out, you`re a Muslim.
Rgds
No. There`s no Law against blaspheming against God. Do you know why?
If you ever find out, you`re a Muslim.
Rgds
#159 Posted by rf786 on April 21, 2007 11:56:02 pm
Re: # 153
Zeena Jee,
Aapney humay yaad kia, buss ithnahe kaafee hai, yeh tho aapkee mehrbanee hai, warna yeh nacheeze kiss qabil.
Zeena Jee,
Aapney humay yaad kia, buss ithnahe kaafee hai, yeh tho aapkee mehrbanee hai, warna yeh nacheeze kiss qabil.
#158 Posted by teshah on April 21, 2007 7:59:24 pm
Re: # 154
Well done Hamid Mian! Ghalib had epitomised this long ago in his couplet by raising the question:
``Kia woh Namrood ki khudaai thi
Bandagi mein mera bhalla nah hua``
(Was it a god-hood of Namrood as being the slave or creation of him brought no good to me)
(Interestingly, `Khudaai` was corrected by google as `chudaai`)
Thank God there is no law for blaspheming against God.
Well done Hamid Mian! Ghalib had epitomised this long ago in his couplet by raising the question:
``Kia woh Namrood ki khudaai thi
Bandagi mein mera bhalla nah hua``
(Was it a god-hood of Namrood as being the slave or creation of him brought no good to me)
(Interestingly, `Khudaai` was corrected by google as `chudaai`)
Thank God there is no law for blaspheming against God.
#156 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 21, 2007 1:55:08 pm
#61 by zeemax
“Unresolved issues are the progress of `Islamic Democracy` onwards following Muhammad`s death”
#155 by zeemax on April 21, 2007 1:36pm PT
”You can all have your fun. While we do some serious stuff.”
What could be more serious then that? I am still waiting.
“Unresolved issues are the progress of `Islamic Democracy` onwards following Muhammad`s death”
#155 by zeemax on April 21, 2007 1:36pm PT
”You can all have your fun. While we do some serious stuff.”
What could be more serious then that? I am still waiting.
#155 Posted by zeemax on April 21, 2007 1:36:24 pm
You can all have your fun. While we do some serious stuff.
Bye.
Bye.
#154 Posted by hamidm2 on April 21, 2007 12:59:59 pm
Re: # 152
salim mian,
...... ``He cannot stand for anything that is negative, oppressive, cruel, abusive, unfair, illogical, and evil`` ......... i don`t know if you can trust a god who created and presides over a place called Hell ........ as far as i can tell by his behavior this god is a vengeful, cruel and tyrannical creature of his own making ............ a psychopath, if i may say so ......... i would not trust him with writing the constitution and books for kindergarten, but you are free to do what you want ......... i will ask you how you feel about it when we meet in hell - inshallah .........
#153 Posted by Zeena on April 21, 2007 11:42:50 am
Re:142 re786 aka Taliban mullah
Now I know you post directly from Lal Masjid........LOL
Now I know you post directly from Lal Masjid........LOL
#152 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 21, 2007 11:29:15 am
{``The resolution states that “sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to God Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust”. Thus it was ordained that no legislation could be adopted in Pakistan which was against the tenets of Islam``}
Rafi Sahib,
Congratulations on a well-written and interesting article. I agree with you that Tallly Banization of Pakistan started long before the Afghan model. But I would put the beginning of this curse at the unfortunate reign of Zina Owl Hag. Nobody, not even Mullah Fazloo and not even Bin Laden, has manipulated the good name of Islam to cause such wide-spread changes that for the most part have left a negative impact on an entire nation.
Nothing wrong with the loft preamble quoted above. We can make all laws and all affairs of state subservient to the will of the Almighty and the tenets of Islam. We just have to ensure that the will of the Almighty and the tenets of Islam are real, positive, compassionate, humane, decent, logical, respectful, meaningful, and good. If good is not evil, and if the most supreme good is God, then it follows that He cannot stand for anything that is negative, oppressive, cruel, abusive, unfair, illogical, and evil.
So, we can live up to the lofty ideals and still preserve the basic values of secularism, individual rights, and all the usual freedoms, without sacrificing the underlying supremacy of God and the foundation of Islam. We just need to define ``ISLAM`` much more positively than those who have hijacked the good ship. :)
Rafi Sahib,
Congratulations on a well-written and interesting article. I agree with you that Tallly Banization of Pakistan started long before the Afghan model. But I would put the beginning of this curse at the unfortunate reign of Zina Owl Hag. Nobody, not even Mullah Fazloo and not even Bin Laden, has manipulated the good name of Islam to cause such wide-spread changes that for the most part have left a negative impact on an entire nation.
Nothing wrong with the loft preamble quoted above. We can make all laws and all affairs of state subservient to the will of the Almighty and the tenets of Islam. We just have to ensure that the will of the Almighty and the tenets of Islam are real, positive, compassionate, humane, decent, logical, respectful, meaningful, and good. If good is not evil, and if the most supreme good is God, then it follows that He cannot stand for anything that is negative, oppressive, cruel, abusive, unfair, illogical, and evil.
So, we can live up to the lofty ideals and still preserve the basic values of secularism, individual rights, and all the usual freedoms, without sacrificing the underlying supremacy of God and the foundation of Islam. We just need to define ``ISLAM`` much more positively than those who have hijacked the good ship. :)
#151 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 21, 2007 11:11:44 am
#144 Ballukhan {``I think Pakistan needs to turn some province into a mullahistan and deport all those who want sharia to that place. ``}
Khan Sahib,
May I suggest that province north of Sindh, east of NWFP, and west of India? That might just solve most of Pakistan`s many problems. :)
Khan Sahib,
May I suggest that province north of Sindh, east of NWFP, and west of India? That might just solve most of Pakistan`s many problems. :)
#150 Posted by hamidm2 on April 21, 2007 10:34:20 am
a groom for the hafsa brides
The Taleban in Afghanistan have used a boy of around 12 to behead a man they accused of spying for the US. Parts of a video of the beheading were broadcast on the Dubai-based al-Arabiya TV network.
The Taleban said the dead man, Ghulam Nabi, had given the US information which led to an air strike in which a senior Taleban commander died.
The video footage shows Mr Nabi being blindfolded with a chequered scarf and making what is said to be a confession.
The boy, wearing a camouflage jacket and wielding a large knife, denounces him as a spy and then cuts off his head.
#148 Posted by hamidm2 on April 21, 2007 7:23:02 am
Re: # 145
tehsin mian,
calm down ...... i assure you these people cannot get out of brookyln, and if they do they will be stopped at the border of connecticut - you are safe in greenwich ........... i, on the other hand, have only southfield standing between me and dearborn !
...... on a brighter note, i was talking to my sister in pakistan and it seems that there is a backlash against the mullahs ....... my sister, who discovered islam a couple of years ago after putting on fifty pounds and finding grey hair in her head, was livid and ranted and railed against these ``uloo kay pathay maulvi!``........... i see that as a positive change in a woman who had started tormenting her kids by making them get up before breakfast to do something no one in my family had done since grandpa gopinath ...............
#147 Posted by hamidm2 on April 21, 2007 7:01:31 am
tehsin,
call me and i will show you how to do it .........
#146 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 21, 2007 6:45:39 am
#110 by zeemax
I know where you are coming from. You are right these stakeholders are the ones who make our life worth living. Where as the picture of those baton-wielding Jamia Hafsa undergraduates makes you desirous of heaven. Bibi aaj maaf kur do.
P.S. my abilities to post pictures or highlight stuff on chowk is woefully lacking.
I know where you are coming from. You are right these stakeholders are the ones who make our life worth living. Where as the picture of those baton-wielding Jamia Hafsa undergraduates makes you desirous of heaven. Bibi aaj maaf kur do.
P.S. my abilities to post pictures or highlight stuff on chowk is woefully lacking.
#145 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 21, 2007 6:44:38 am
#131 by hamidm2
“hope the world has seen the last of the neville chamberlains and this time it will not wait till it is too late”
Ditto! We shall not yield, we will fight them on land, on the high seas (not to worry they are scared of water and don’t know how to swim) in the air (despite their army of green angels and jinns). We shall not surrender, not give them a penny of dhimmi tax, not allow these self professed purdhans of God’s will to infringe on any of our freedoms. We wont even give them an inch of our pak sir zameen to maintain their napak cult.
“hope the world has seen the last of the neville chamberlains and this time it will not wait till it is too late”
Ditto! We shall not yield, we will fight them on land, on the high seas (not to worry they are scared of water and don’t know how to swim) in the air (despite their army of green angels and jinns). We shall not surrender, not give them a penny of dhimmi tax, not allow these self professed purdhans of God’s will to infringe on any of our freedoms. We wont even give them an inch of our pak sir zameen to maintain their napak cult.
#144 Posted by ballukhan on April 21, 2007 5:11:11 am
I think Pakistan needs to turn some province into a mullahistan and deport all those who want sharia to that place.
`Those interested in dance should go to India`
[21 Apr, 2007 l 1551 hrs ISTlPTI]
ISLAMABAD: Notwithstanding the nationwide rallies which are being held against attempts to enforce strict Islamic law here, a radical cleric has said that dance and music would not be permitted in Pakistan and those interested in these should go to India.
``We will not wait more. It will now be Sharia (law) or shahadat (martyrdom),`` said Maulana Abdul Aziz, one of the clerics of Lal Masjid who have threatened to impose the strict Islamic law in a month`s time in the capital.
In his Friday prayer sermon, he said those interested in dance and music should go to India, the media here reported.
Aziz vowed to enforce Sharia in the country even if the government did not itself do so, saying the Sharia would be enforced at any cost for which the whole nation should support the mosque`s management.
``We don`t need the government`s help for the enforcement of an Islamic system because we are capable enough to do it without its assistance,`` he said
His comments came as moderate political parties like Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM), Pakistan People`s Party (PPP) and human rights and women rights groups held massive rallies all over Pakistan, opposing threats by the Lal Masjid clerics and their supporters to resort to moral policing and impose Sharia law
#143 Posted by zeemax on April 21, 2007 3:52:22 am
To Kaalchakra:
Zindagi
Bar tar az andesha-e-sood-O-ziyaaN hai Zindagi
Hai kabhi JaaN aur kabhi tasleem-e-jaaN hai Zindagi
Tu issay Paimaana-e-Imroz-O-fardaa say naa naap
JavedaaN, Peha`m dawaaN, Har damm jawaaN hai Zindagi
Apni duniya aap peda kar agar zindoN maiN hai
Si`r-e-Adam hai, zameer-e-kun fikaaN hai Zindagi
Zindagaani ki haqeeqat Koh-kunn kay dil say pooch
Joo-e-sheer-O-teesha-O-sang-e-giraaN hai Zindagi
Bandagi main gha`T kay reh jaati hai ik joo-e-kamm aab
aur aazaadi maiN behr-e-bay karaaN hai Zindagi
Aashkaaraa hai yeh apni quwwat-e-taskheer say
garchaY ik miTTi kay paikar maiN nihaaN hai Zindagi
Qulzum-e-Hasti say Ubhraa hai tu maaniNd-e-Hubaab
Iss ziyaaN khaanay maiN teraa imtehaaN hai Zindagi
Emphasis is mine.
Regards
Zindagi
Bar tar az andesha-e-sood-O-ziyaaN hai Zindagi
Hai kabhi JaaN aur kabhi tasleem-e-jaaN hai Zindagi
Tu issay Paimaana-e-Imroz-O-fardaa say naa naap
JavedaaN, Peha`m dawaaN, Har damm jawaaN hai Zindagi
Apni duniya aap peda kar agar zindoN maiN hai
Si`r-e-Adam hai, zameer-e-kun fikaaN hai Zindagi
Zindagaani ki haqeeqat Koh-kunn kay dil say pooch
Joo-e-sheer-O-teesha-O-sang-e-giraaN hai Zindagi
Bandagi main gha`T kay reh jaati hai ik joo-e-kamm aab
aur aazaadi maiN behr-e-bay karaaN hai Zindagi
Aashkaaraa hai yeh apni quwwat-e-taskheer say
garchaY ik miTTi kay paikar maiN nihaaN hai Zindagi
Qulzum-e-Hasti say Ubhraa hai tu maaniNd-e-Hubaab
Iss ziyaaN khaanay maiN teraa imtehaaN hai Zindagi
Emphasis is mine.
Regards
#141 Posted by Zeena on April 21, 2007 12:21:28 am
Manto mian,
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
Exactly......this is what we wish Pakistan to be........
I appreciate your genuine thoughts and bold stand for Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan do need fine leaders like you........
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
Exactly......this is what we wish Pakistan to be........
I appreciate your genuine thoughts and bold stand for Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan do need fine leaders like you........
#140 Posted by Zeena on April 21, 2007 12:17:29 am
#95 zeemax
RE:- zeemax ji
Good idea......
#91 rf786 madam
Yes, I lost it...........b/c my views don`t fit to your mind............LOL
RE:- zeemax ji
Good idea......
#91 rf786 madam
Yes, I lost it...........b/c my views don`t fit to your mind............LOL
#139 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 11:13:28 pm
#132 by hamidm2,
.....as Maulana Ghazi was frank enough to admit, democracy is irrelevant.``
This remark represents a typically ignorant and condescending attitude. Maulana Ghazi did not frankly ``admit`` to anything. What he was doing was `frankly` stating a fact.
He is right. This kind of democracy is irrelevant in Islam. Islamists don`t even waste their breath discussing it.
.....as Maulana Ghazi was frank enough to admit, democracy is irrelevant.``
This remark represents a typically ignorant and condescending attitude. Maulana Ghazi did not frankly ``admit`` to anything. What he was doing was `frankly` stating a fact.
He is right. This kind of democracy is irrelevant in Islam. Islamists don`t even waste their breath discussing it.
#138 Posted by rf786 on April 20, 2007 11:09:31 pm
Re: # 132
The late Maulana Maududi had also expressed similar ideas pre-partition and post creation of Pakistan JI was split into half on this contentious issue of election vs selection based on Islamic seniority.
The late Maulana Maududi had also expressed similar ideas pre-partition and post creation of Pakistan JI was split into half on this contentious issue of election vs selection based on Islamic seniority.
#137 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 11:07:26 pm
#130 by GT Re: # 122 by zeemax:
The world is concerned, but not scared ....... not yet. Let us hope, for the welfare of all of us, that the world does not get scared.
Amen.
I hope this does not end up being included in the list of ``Famous Last Words``
The world is concerned, but not scared ....... not yet. Let us hope, for the welfare of all of us, that the world does not get scared.
Amen.
I hope this does not end up being included in the list of ``Famous Last Words``
#135 Posted by GT on April 20, 2007 7:18:07 pm
Re: # 132
hamidm2:
Wait till the ghazis get hit by popular democracy ..... the first thing that they will get to realize is that `it` is indeed a pee-pee ..... and they should have taken their maid seriously a long time ago.
hamidm2:
Wait till the ghazis get hit by popular democracy ..... the first thing that they will get to realize is that `it` is indeed a pee-pee ..... and they should have taken their maid seriously a long time ago.
#134 Posted by arjun2 on April 20, 2007 6:46:45 pm
one of the highways in the bay area has a sign an Adopt-a-highway sign by the ``Ahmediyya muslim community``...I can imagine what people like urstruly and welfare queen go through when driving over that stretch....
#133 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 6:39:55 pm
Re: # 132
so what is an errant `l` between friends .............
so what is an errant `l` between friends .............
#132 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 6:28:22 pm
yal`all,
from irfan ahmed`s column in dawn :
`` Democracy is about elections. Islam is about selection.” He went on to elaborate that ignorant people did not know what was good for them, and therefore the educated elite had to show the way.This was in response to the reporter when he remarked that Islamic parties in Pakistan had never won over 13 per cent of the popular vote. And this is the paradox: fundamentalists benefit from democratic freedoms wherever they are available to them, and use them to impose their reactionary agenda on society. And wherever they do not get their way, they complain that they are being denied their democratic rights. If and when they achieve power, they deny their opponents these very rights at the first opportunity. For them, as Maulana Ghazi was frank enough to admit, democracy is irrelevant.``
#131 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 3:22:32 pm
Re: # 130
GT,
.... i hope the world has seen the last of the neville chamberlains and this time it will not wait till it is too late - we don`t need another holocaust .............
GT,
.... i hope the world has seen the last of the neville chamberlains and this time it will not wait till it is too late - we don`t need another holocaust .............
#130 Posted by GT on April 20, 2007 2:24:38 pm
Re: # 122 by zeemax:
``Do not make it more harsh than it has to be, otherwise it will.``
Zee:
The world is concerned, but not scared ....... not yet. Let us hope, for the welfare of all of us, that the world does not get scared.
``Do not make it more harsh than it has to be, otherwise it will.``
Zee:
The world is concerned, but not scared ....... not yet. Let us hope, for the welfare of all of us, that the world does not get scared.
#129 Posted by arjun2 on April 20, 2007 2:09:56 pm
Paki 12 year old excels at IT, Islamic Terrorism...
Jihadist Video Shows Boy Beheading Man
Apr 20 02:24 PM US/Eastern
By ABDUL SATTAR
Associated Press Writer
KILI FAQIRAN, Pakistan (AP) - The boy with the knife looks barely 12. In a high-pitched voice, he denounces the bound, blindfolded man before him as an American spy. Then he hacks off the captive`s head to cries of ``God is great!`` and hoists it in triumph by the hair.
A video circulating in Pakistan records the grisly death of Ghulam Nabi, a Pakistani militant accused of betraying a top Taliban official who was killed in a December airstrike in Afghanistan.
An Associated Press reporter confirmed Nabi`s identity by visiting his family in Kili Faqiran, their remote village in southwestern Pakistan.
The video, which was obtained by AP Television News in the border city of Peshawar on Tuesday, appears authentic and is unprecedented in jihadist propaganda because of the youth of the executioner.
Captions mention Mullah Dadullah, the Taliban`s current top commander in southern Afghanistan, although he does not appear in the video. The soundtrack features songs praising Taliban supreme leader Mullah Omar and ``Sheikh Osama``—an apparent reference to Osama bin Laden, who is suspected of hiding along the Afghan-Pakistan border.
Jihadist Video Shows Boy Beheading Man
Apr 20 02:24 PM US/Eastern
By ABDUL SATTAR
Associated Press Writer
KILI FAQIRAN, Pakistan (AP) - The boy with the knife looks barely 12. In a high-pitched voice, he denounces the bound, blindfolded man before him as an American spy. Then he hacks off the captive`s head to cries of ``God is great!`` and hoists it in triumph by the hair.
A video circulating in Pakistan records the grisly death of Ghulam Nabi, a Pakistani militant accused of betraying a top Taliban official who was killed in a December airstrike in Afghanistan.
An Associated Press reporter confirmed Nabi`s identity by visiting his family in Kili Faqiran, their remote village in southwestern Pakistan.
The video, which was obtained by AP Television News in the border city of Peshawar on Tuesday, appears authentic and is unprecedented in jihadist propaganda because of the youth of the executioner.
Captions mention Mullah Dadullah, the Taliban`s current top commander in southern Afghanistan, although he does not appear in the video. The soundtrack features songs praising Taliban supreme leader Mullah Omar and ``Sheikh Osama``—an apparent reference to Osama bin Laden, who is suspected of hiding along the Afghan-Pakistan border.
#128 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 1:29:16 pm
kaal,
it is easy for you to be sanguine and nonchalant about islam - unlike grandpa gopinath, your great grandpa had the foresight and the testicular fortitude not to convert to this horrible condition inspite of the ignominy of dalithism and the pain of vegetarinism ....... please show some sympathy for those of us who are going to pay with our lives for grandpa`s lack of spine ..........
#127 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 1:10:34 pm
#126 by kaalchakra,
Zee, you obviously know! :)
Yes I know :) I said it just for the heck of it .... After all, I can`t know everything .... let them believe that ...
IMHO, being put in this situation is just punishment to munafiqs. :)
Yes. At the same time, it is reward for the believers ..
Have a nice weekend ...
Cheers!
Zee, you obviously know! :)
Yes I know :) I said it just for the heck of it .... After all, I can`t know everything .... let them believe that ...
IMHO, being put in this situation is just punishment to munafiqs. :)
Yes. At the same time, it is reward for the believers ..
Have a nice weekend ...
Cheers!
#126 Posted by KaalChakra on April 20, 2007 12:12:28 pm
``I don`t know why people equate anything to do with Islam in Pakistan as `Talibanization`.``
Zee, you obviously know! :)
But just as somethings are seen better from inside, a few may seem clearer from a distance.
A theory is that a lot of people (in Pakistan at this time, mostly) are scared out of their wits of Islam. They believe Islam will upset their well-furnished applecarts. So, they want to demonize it.
Yet Islam`s power to move the public and its unwavering attraction to the common person is not lost upon them. So (leaving aside a few lost cases) the rest dare not utter the feared name. Everything to do with Islam except whatever serves their current interests (and hence their own interpretation) has got to be talibanism, wahabism, or some other ism - anything that will let them sleep unharmed.
IMHO, being put in this situation is just punishment to munafiqs. :)
Zee, you obviously know! :)
But just as somethings are seen better from inside, a few may seem clearer from a distance.
A theory is that a lot of people (in Pakistan at this time, mostly) are scared out of their wits of Islam. They believe Islam will upset their well-furnished applecarts. So, they want to demonize it.
Yet Islam`s power to move the public and its unwavering attraction to the common person is not lost upon them. So (leaving aside a few lost cases) the rest dare not utter the feared name. Everything to do with Islam except whatever serves their current interests (and hence their own interpretation) has got to be talibanism, wahabism, or some other ism - anything that will let them sleep unharmed.
IMHO, being put in this situation is just punishment to munafiqs. :)
#125 Posted by rf786 on April 20, 2007 11:03:22 am
Re: # 124
``Jizya`` is another example of Arabic traditions practiced before arrival of Muhammed and now has become a part of Islamic injunctions.
``Jizya`` is another example of Arabic traditions practiced before arrival of Muhammed and now has become a part of Islamic injunctions.
#124 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 10:57:02 am
#121 by Urstruly,
I stand corrected Urstruly. I didn`t know Jizya was in return for the exemptions you listed. Thanks for the detail of which I was unaware.
No. I don`t think it`s a bad deal at all. So Jizya is compulsory in an Islamic State.
Agreed! Noone can deny it if they don`t have to go for Jihad in return for ten meals per family per year...
I stand corrected Urstruly. I didn`t know Jizya was in return for the exemptions you listed. Thanks for the detail of which I was unaware.
No. I don`t think it`s a bad deal at all. So Jizya is compulsory in an Islamic State.
Agreed! Noone can deny it if they don`t have to go for Jihad in return for ten meals per family per year...
#123 Posted by rf786 on April 20, 2007 10:54:55 am
Re: # 94
Zee Sahib,
{....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help }
Examples:
1. Change or adoption of Arabic names
2. Shariat laws that were primarily based upon medieval arab traditions
3. Azaan and Salaat in Arabic, 80% of the Muslim world has no idea what is being said
4. Adoption of Arabic attire
5. Arabic cultural invasion or imposition in other parts of the muslim world.
Zee Sahib,
{....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help }
Examples:
1. Change or adoption of Arabic names
2. Shariat laws that were primarily based upon medieval arab traditions
3. Azaan and Salaat in Arabic, 80% of the Muslim world has no idea what is being said
4. Adoption of Arabic attire
5. Arabic cultural invasion or imposition in other parts of the muslim world.
#122 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 10:48:56 am
Below is an honest comment:
I don`t know why people equate anything to do with Islam in Pakistan as `Talibanization`, even as the title of this article suggests. That was Afghanistan, this is Pakistan. There`s nothing common between the two movements nor the environment in which these were/have been initiated
My appeal to the Pakistani Civil Society therefore stands. Please. Make use of some common sense. The Islamic juggernaut is on, and gaining momentum every single day.
Do not make it more harsh than it has to be, otherwise it will.
Rgds
I don`t know why people equate anything to do with Islam in Pakistan as `Talibanization`, even as the title of this article suggests. That was Afghanistan, this is Pakistan. There`s nothing common between the two movements nor the environment in which these were/have been initiated
My appeal to the Pakistani Civil Society therefore stands. Please. Make use of some common sense. The Islamic juggernaut is on, and gaining momentum every single day.
Do not make it more harsh than it has to be, otherwise it will.
Rgds
#121 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 10:40:44 am
Re: # 120
A little correction there....
There is no if, and , or but on the Jiziyah Tax that non-Muslim subjects are required to pay. It is compulsory. In return they get constitutional parity (as detailed in my post below), exemption from compulsory military service i.e. Jihad, and conduct business that no Muslim will be allowed to run e.g producing and selling liquor, running interest-based business etc. For the cost of 10 days of meal per year per family, I do not think it is a bad deal at all. For example, US government has set a minimum daily meal allowance at $12 per day. So if at $120 per year per family US government allows Muslims to establish Shriah courts and practice islamic wedding and inheritance laws, I do not think it is a bad deal at all.
A little correction there....
There is no if, and , or but on the Jiziyah Tax that non-Muslim subjects are required to pay. It is compulsory. In return they get constitutional parity (as detailed in my post below), exemption from compulsory military service i.e. Jihad, and conduct business that no Muslim will be allowed to run e.g producing and selling liquor, running interest-based business etc. For the cost of 10 days of meal per year per family, I do not think it is a bad deal at all. For example, US government has set a minimum daily meal allowance at $12 per day. So if at $120 per year per family US government allows Muslims to establish Shriah courts and practice islamic wedding and inheritance laws, I do not think it is a bad deal at all.
#120 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 10:27:59 am
#118 by hamidm2,
Look. Let`s be honest here.
... the whole world knows what the taliban did to their women ..
We`re not talking about Taliban which was a tribal cultural phenomenon anyway mixed with Islam. We`re talking about the Hafsa rebellion which happens to be initiated by `women`. Or didn`t you notice?
.....and the state of women in saudi arabia .........
It`s not that bad there either but don`t worry about Saudia. They`ll take care of themselves. Worry about Pakistan.
...after the international outrage, were asked to carry a yellow card in their pocket ...... they were also asked to hoist a yellow flag on their house .....
But no distinctive clothing as you claimed. Above is true nevertheless. It is also true that if minorities begin to conspire and become a threat to the State, they will be at the very least made to do what Taliban did, or at the worst meet the same fate which Muhammad brought upon Banu Quraiza and Abu Bakr brought upon the apostates by wiping entire tribes out and enslaving their women and children. No question about that.
.....as for the tax, dhimmis were forced to pay the tax during the time of the abominable four who you want to emulate ......
That was then, and this is now. We don`t need their taxes anymore. Just their allegiance.
...... and as far as i know cat stevens and junaid jamshed gave up regular music to take up beating the duff and crooning lullabies
Firstly, this is factually incorrect. Both still sing regular music from time to time. Secondly, they both sing what they want. It`s their choice. Noone forced it upon them. Or did anyone? Whom?
... also i don`t think there were cinemas in taliban afghanistan or in today`s saudi arabia....
I don`t know about the above two countries, but there will be in Pakistan because of cultural differences. Just that there won`t be any western propoganda or cultural invasion or lasciviousness. That`s all.
Hope you got it now :)
Look. Let`s be honest here.
... the whole world knows what the taliban did to their women ..
We`re not talking about Taliban which was a tribal cultural phenomenon anyway mixed with Islam. We`re talking about the Hafsa rebellion which happens to be initiated by `women`. Or didn`t you notice?
.....and the state of women in saudi arabia .........
It`s not that bad there either but don`t worry about Saudia. They`ll take care of themselves. Worry about Pakistan.
...after the international outrage, were asked to carry a yellow card in their pocket ...... they were also asked to hoist a yellow flag on their house .....
But no distinctive clothing as you claimed. Above is true nevertheless. It is also true that if minorities begin to conspire and become a threat to the State, they will be at the very least made to do what Taliban did, or at the worst meet the same fate which Muhammad brought upon Banu Quraiza and Abu Bakr brought upon the apostates by wiping entire tribes out and enslaving their women and children. No question about that.
.....as for the tax, dhimmis were forced to pay the tax during the time of the abominable four who you want to emulate ......
That was then, and this is now. We don`t need their taxes anymore. Just their allegiance.
...... and as far as i know cat stevens and junaid jamshed gave up regular music to take up beating the duff and crooning lullabies
Firstly, this is factually incorrect. Both still sing regular music from time to time. Secondly, they both sing what they want. It`s their choice. Noone forced it upon them. Or did anyone? Whom?
... also i don`t think there were cinemas in taliban afghanistan or in today`s saudi arabia....
I don`t know about the above two countries, but there will be in Pakistan because of cultural differences. Just that there won`t be any western propoganda or cultural invasion or lasciviousness. That`s all.
Hope you got it now :)
#118 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 9:57:36 am
Zeemax,
not to belabor the obvious but you are being disingenuous and decietful - typical traits of mullahs and used car salesmen
``Sharia law is right now in force in the entire Malakand/Swat as well as the entire FATA. Plus, there`s a `Hasba` Force established by law in Peshawar. I haven`t heard of any woman being beaten. Have you? `` ...... yes i have, and i have also heard of barbers being beaten and shaven men being disgraced ...... and they have been on a rampage to prevent women from going to school without `proper` attire ....... the whole world knows what the taliban did to their women and the state of women in saudi arabia .........
``Were any of the large Afghan-Sikh community during Taliban rule made to wear distinct clothing or to pay dhimmi tax? `` .... yes .... the hindoos were asked to stitch a yellow patch on their clothing and later, after the international outrage, were asked to carry a yellow card in their pocket ...... they were also asked to hoist a yellow flag on their house ..... and as for the tax, dhimmis were forced to pay the tax during the time of the abominable four who you want to emulate ......
...... and as far as i know cat stevens and junaid jamshed gave up regular music to take up beating the duff and crooning lullabies to al-lah and his prophet (pbuh and his camel) ... also i don`t think there were cinemas in taliban afghanistan or in today`s saudi arabia
.......... political islam is a totalitarian ideology worse than nazism and communism because it claims to have divine sanction .......... tehsin abbasi might cluck like a chicken but he ain`t no chicken little ...........
#117 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 9:41:03 am
Please read the answer to point 5 of hamidm2 in #115 as ``How big a beard did Syed Qutb who started it all have?
#116 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 9:31:53 am
#114 by Tehsinabbasi,
Very disappointing post Tehseen Saheb. It appears your fears are quite baseless and you can`t substantiate them.
As you say, ``...but then again he could have an epiphany – wake up one morning choose a more restrictive ayah...``, it`s always a possibility, but then you could get hit by a truck while crossing the road tomorrow, that`s always a possibility. But it doesn`t stop you from waking up and going to work. Does it?
I hoped you were going to do better.
Rgds.
Very disappointing post Tehseen Saheb. It appears your fears are quite baseless and you can`t substantiate them.
As you say, ``...but then again he could have an epiphany – wake up one morning choose a more restrictive ayah...``, it`s always a possibility, but then you could get hit by a truck while crossing the road tomorrow, that`s always a possibility. But it doesn`t stop you from waking up and going to work. Does it?
I hoped you were going to do better.
Rgds.
#115 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 9:22:59 am
#111 by hamidm2
zeemax, ``What do you think are the negative implications upon civil society`` Here are the top 10 .....
Ok. Let`s examine these one by one seriously:
1. 50% of he population (women) will be classified as 2nd class citizens to be beaten if they venture outside their homes without the burqa
On what evidence do you say that? Sharia law is right now in force in the entire Malakand/Swat as well as the entire FATA. Plus, there`s a `Hasba` Force established by law in Peshawar. I haven`t heard of any woman being beaten. Have you?
2. ahmedis, christians, hindoos and other dhimmis will be forced to wear distinctive clothing and pay a special tax
Were any of the large Afghan-Sikh community during Taliban rule made to wear distinct clothing or to pay dhimmi tax?
3. apostates, heretics and atheists will be hunted down and killed
Yes. Nothing wrong with that. So were the communists during the Hoover years.
4. pigs and dogs will be persecuted
Maybe. That shouldn`t worry you too much unless you consider yourself one.
5. barbers will be shot and people without beards will be whipped
How big a beard did Syed Qutb have? It will remain a matter of choice.
6. musicians will be killed and actors will be stoned
Why? Was Cat Stevens killed and stoned?
7. people will be forced to pray five times a day
Noone was `forced` to pray even by Umar.
8. people will be killed for not fasting
Same as above.
9. films and television will only fature bearded men speaking in arabic
This is silly.
10. toothpaste and deodrant will be banned
Same as above.
............. on the positive side, men will be allowed to have sex with concubines, gilmans and sheep .........
Perhaps in your household :) I won`t mind a `kaneez` or two myself ! :))
zeemax, ``What do you think are the negative implications upon civil society`` Here are the top 10 .....
Ok. Let`s examine these one by one seriously:
1. 50% of he population (women) will be classified as 2nd class citizens to be beaten if they venture outside their homes without the burqa
On what evidence do you say that? Sharia law is right now in force in the entire Malakand/Swat as well as the entire FATA. Plus, there`s a `Hasba` Force established by law in Peshawar. I haven`t heard of any woman being beaten. Have you?
2. ahmedis, christians, hindoos and other dhimmis will be forced to wear distinctive clothing and pay a special tax
Were any of the large Afghan-Sikh community during Taliban rule made to wear distinct clothing or to pay dhimmi tax?
3. apostates, heretics and atheists will be hunted down and killed
Yes. Nothing wrong with that. So were the communists during the Hoover years.
4. pigs and dogs will be persecuted
Maybe. That shouldn`t worry you too much unless you consider yourself one.
5. barbers will be shot and people without beards will be whipped
How big a beard did Syed Qutb have? It will remain a matter of choice.
6. musicians will be killed and actors will be stoned
Why? Was Cat Stevens killed and stoned?
7. people will be forced to pray five times a day
Noone was `forced` to pray even by Umar.
8. people will be killed for not fasting
Same as above.
9. films and television will only fature bearded men speaking in arabic
This is silly.
10. toothpaste and deodrant will be banned
Same as above.
............. on the positive side, men will be allowed to have sex with concubines, gilmans and sheep .........
Perhaps in your household :) I won`t mind a `kaneez` or two myself ! :))
#114 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 20, 2007 8:58:57 am
#105 by zeemax
Like you pointed out this Mullah is fairly liberal in terms of allowing his wife to drive and shop but then again he could have an epiphany – wake up one morning choose a more restrictive ayah, an example from sirah or find another hadith and change his stance. Arbitrary power, followed with legitimacy from the holy law, backed by God and beyond death ultimate salvation? Do you in your right mind could trust any individual, however much his claim to wisdom and piety with such power? Man this would be worse then Hindus in their hey day, they even didn’t allow the Brahmin to be King. We are looking at an unmitigated disaster.
Ultimate Sovereignty may belong to God, but we are not going allow any human to exercise it in his name.
Like you pointed out this Mullah is fairly liberal in terms of allowing his wife to drive and shop but then again he could have an epiphany – wake up one morning choose a more restrictive ayah, an example from sirah or find another hadith and change his stance. Arbitrary power, followed with legitimacy from the holy law, backed by God and beyond death ultimate salvation? Do you in your right mind could trust any individual, however much his claim to wisdom and piety with such power? Man this would be worse then Hindus in their hey day, they even didn’t allow the Brahmin to be King. We are looking at an unmitigated disaster.
Ultimate Sovereignty may belong to God, but we are not going allow any human to exercise it in his name.
#113 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 8:43:39 am
Re: # 107
No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that:
QA demanded constitutional parity between Hindus and Muslims in a United India. On the other hand Congress offered a constitutional equality between Hindus and Muslims. There is a difference between parity and equality.
Under the constitutional equality the majority rules. For example, in a country where population is 80% Hindu and 20% Muslim and all citizens are equal constitutionally, then there is no way in hell to stop Hindu majority to impose Ram Raj (or secularism) on all subjects of state. But under a system of Parity the minorities enjoy a relative immunity from the tyrrany of majority. This is the Islamic way. So in principle, in an Islamic state Islamic law is not applicable upon non-Muslim subjects of the state. It is a sort on internal autonomy. Of course it is not unlimited autonomy but autonomy it is.
So a glimpse of constitutional equality came to realization when Congress majority formed the government after the election in 1938 and soon afterward imposed Ram Raj in their states. The Muslims subjects were forced to bow before idols of Hindu dieties at the enterance of public offices and schools and children were forced to sing Bande Matrim in schools; things and practices that Muslims find absolutely disgusting and crass. In 1940 when Congress assembleis were dissoved, Muslims all over India celebrated Day of Deliverance and soon afterward on March 23, 1940, in the annual Convention of Muslim League, Muslims demanded a seperate homeland in case the deal with Constitutional Parity did not workout.
No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that:
QA demanded constitutional parity between Hindus and Muslims in a United India. On the other hand Congress offered a constitutional equality between Hindus and Muslims. There is a difference between parity and equality.
Under the constitutional equality the majority rules. For example, in a country where population is 80% Hindu and 20% Muslim and all citizens are equal constitutionally, then there is no way in hell to stop Hindu majority to impose Ram Raj (or secularism) on all subjects of state. But under a system of Parity the minorities enjoy a relative immunity from the tyrrany of majority. This is the Islamic way. So in principle, in an Islamic state Islamic law is not applicable upon non-Muslim subjects of the state. It is a sort on internal autonomy. Of course it is not unlimited autonomy but autonomy it is.
So a glimpse of constitutional equality came to realization when Congress majority formed the government after the election in 1938 and soon afterward imposed Ram Raj in their states. The Muslims subjects were forced to bow before idols of Hindu dieties at the enterance of public offices and schools and children were forced to sing Bande Matrim in schools; things and practices that Muslims find absolutely disgusting and crass. In 1940 when Congress assembleis were dissoved, Muslims all over India celebrated Day of Deliverance and soon afterward on March 23, 1940, in the annual Convention of Muslim League, Muslims demanded a seperate homeland in case the deal with Constitutional Parity did not workout.
#112 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 8:43:25 am
Islam under attack says former hostage
Sister Ridley urged Muslims “to not kiss the hand that slaps you” and added: “We cannot get down on our knees in front of those that will attack us – it’s the worst thing you can do.
“We are peaceful, we do not look for confrontation, but nor are we pacifists,” she added.
“If someone attacks me, I promise you I will strike back.”
Sister Ridley went on to voice her support for the Islamic Sharia law and attacked Tony Blair for trying to “dilute” Islam.
She said: “Being a Muslim is very, very simple. You either are or you’re not. It’s like being pregnant.
“You either are pregnant or you’re not. I’ve not heard of anyone being moderately pregnant. I cannot give you a definition of an extremist because I do not know any extremists.”
Sister Ridley urged Muslims “to not kiss the hand that slaps you” and added: “We cannot get down on our knees in front of those that will attack us – it’s the worst thing you can do.
“We are peaceful, we do not look for confrontation, but nor are we pacifists,” she added.
“If someone attacks me, I promise you I will strike back.”
Sister Ridley went on to voice her support for the Islamic Sharia law and attacked Tony Blair for trying to “dilute” Islam.
She said: “Being a Muslim is very, very simple. You either are or you’re not. It’s like being pregnant.
“You either are pregnant or you’re not. I’ve not heard of anyone being moderately pregnant. I cannot give you a definition of an extremist because I do not know any extremists.”
#111 Posted by hamidm2 on April 20, 2007 8:43:11 am
zeemax,
``What do you think are the negative implications upon civil society``
Here are the top 10 .....
1. 50% of he population (women) will be classified as 2nd class citizens to be beaten if they venture outside their homes without the burqa
2. ahmedis, christians, hindoos and other dhimmis will be forced to wear distinctive clothing and pay a special tax
3. apostates, heretics and atheists will be hunted down and killed
4. pigs and dogs will be persecuted
5. barbers will be shot and people without beards will be whipped
6. musicians will be killed and actors will be stoned
7. people will be forced to pray five times a day
8. people will be killed for not fasting
9. films and television will only fature bearded men speaking in arabic
10. toothpaste and deodrant will be banned
............. on the positive side, men will be allowed to have sex with concubines, gilmans and sheep ..........
#110 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 8:24:20 am
Just an impish observation added to #105 :)
Are there really any stakeholders whose interests will be jeopardized with an Islamist victory other than the ones shown below?
Please continue with your response. Sorry for the interruption.
Are there really any stakeholders whose interests will be jeopardized with an Islamist victory other than the ones shown below?
Please continue with your response. Sorry for the interruption.
#109 Posted by arjun2 on April 20, 2007 8:11:38 am
It`s not just pakiland that has been talibanized...islamic fundamentalism has seeped into the paki DNA to the point where pakis are now a new species..homo jihadis`r`us..
The US government was right to put pakis first on the registering with INS/fingerprinting list...
Pakistan-based Muslim group behind attack, journalist says
Articles about organization reason why he was targeted, columnist believes
OMAR EL AKKAD
An Ontario journalist was beaten and threatened with death this week in what is being called a revenge attack for publishing articles critical of a Pakistan-based Muslim group.
Jawaad Faizi, 35, was pulling into the driveway of his editor`s Mississauga home on Tuesday night when a car pulled up behind him. Mr. Faizi had not yet turned off the engine or taken off his seatbelt when he heard the sound of a blast. Before he knew what it was, the sound came again -- this time it was his front windshield being smashed. Three men began assaulting him with bats and yelling Punjabi profanities at him, he said. When the assailants saw Mr. Faizi call 911, he said, they fled.
Mr. Faizi, who worked as a journalist in Pakistan before coming to Canada in 2002, has been writing columns for the Pakistan Post, a Mississauga newspaper, for more than two years. He believes it is his work there, specifically criticism of a powerful Pakistan-based Muslim group, that resulted in the beating.
``It was Idara Minhaj-ul-Quran,`` Mr. Faizi said in an interview yesterday. ``[The attackers] were saying, `Why you publish news about our leader?` ``
Minhaj-ul-Quran is a Pakistan-based Muslim group led by a religious scholar named Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri. Mr. Faizi said his own trouble began after Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri, at a meeting with his followers, pointed to the moon.
Mr. Faizi said that Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri told his followers he had written the Prophet Mohammed`s name on the surface of the moon. Two weeks ago, his newspaper ran an article -- picked up from a Pakistani news outlet -- that questioned whether Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri could have done this. Mr. Faizi wrote a column on the topic.
After publication of these and other articles about Minhaj-ul-Quran that the Pakistan Post printed beginning in January, Mr. Faizi said, he and his editor, Amir Arain, began receiving harassing phone calls.
``They were saying very bad words in Punjabi,`` Mr. Arain said. ``They were saying, `You are not a Muslim, you are supporting Christians.` ``
Both the editor and his columnist contacted Peel Regional Police about the calls twice, once in January and again on Monday, the day before Mr. Faizi was beaten. A police spokeswoman confirmed that a 911 call came from outside Mr. Arain`s home on Tuesday night, prompting an investigation. However, she declined to discuss details of that investigation. She was unable to provide more information on the earlier complaints.
One local immigrant journalist said that the attack against Mr. Faizi is part of a climate of media intimidation that prevails in many home countries.
``It wouldn`t surprise me at all,`` said Saleem Samad, editor of the Toronto-based Weekly Durdesh. ``I`ve also had similar experiences.``
Mr. Samad was forced to leave Bangladesh in 2004 after his writings there provoked a wave of intimidation measures and threats. Since coming to Canada, he said, he received threatening calls after writing about Islamic terrorism, while some of his fellow journalists have received threats after reporting on the Tamil Tigers.
``I know these people, they are very intolerant,`` he said. ``Even if they are in Canada, their mindset doesn`t change. They`re intolerant about political opinion, religious opinion, you name it.``
Many complaints about such intimidation come from writers and editors working for small ethnic and religious-based publications. Most journalists volunteer their time and the ones who are paid tend to take on second jobs. Mr. Samad said that he now advises such journalists to find jobs with security companies, both to make a living and for added protection.
Mr. Faizi spent five hours at Trillium Hospital as a result of the attack on Tuesday, suffering injuries to his arms and head. He and his wife kept their children home from school yesterday, and Peel District School Board officials say the board will meet with police to discuss the situation.
``My kids are asking why they didn`t go to school,`` Mr. Faizi said. ``I told them there was an accident and they have to stay at home. I don`t want to say people attacked me; they will be scared more than me.``
Almost exactly eight years ago, Mr. Faizi said, he had a similar experience in Pakistan after he published photos of a wanted terrorist. The subsequent revenge attack also landed him in a hospital.
The US government was right to put pakis first on the registering with INS/fingerprinting list...
Pakistan-based Muslim group behind attack, journalist says
Articles about organization reason why he was targeted, columnist believes
OMAR EL AKKAD
An Ontario journalist was beaten and threatened with death this week in what is being called a revenge attack for publishing articles critical of a Pakistan-based Muslim group.
Jawaad Faizi, 35, was pulling into the driveway of his editor`s Mississauga home on Tuesday night when a car pulled up behind him. Mr. Faizi had not yet turned off the engine or taken off his seatbelt when he heard the sound of a blast. Before he knew what it was, the sound came again -- this time it was his front windshield being smashed. Three men began assaulting him with bats and yelling Punjabi profanities at him, he said. When the assailants saw Mr. Faizi call 911, he said, they fled.
Mr. Faizi, who worked as a journalist in Pakistan before coming to Canada in 2002, has been writing columns for the Pakistan Post, a Mississauga newspaper, for more than two years. He believes it is his work there, specifically criticism of a powerful Pakistan-based Muslim group, that resulted in the beating.
``It was Idara Minhaj-ul-Quran,`` Mr. Faizi said in an interview yesterday. ``[The attackers] were saying, `Why you publish news about our leader?` ``
Minhaj-ul-Quran is a Pakistan-based Muslim group led by a religious scholar named Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri. Mr. Faizi said his own trouble began after Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri, at a meeting with his followers, pointed to the moon.
Mr. Faizi said that Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri told his followers he had written the Prophet Mohammed`s name on the surface of the moon. Two weeks ago, his newspaper ran an article -- picked up from a Pakistani news outlet -- that questioned whether Mr. Tahir-ul-Qadri could have done this. Mr. Faizi wrote a column on the topic.
After publication of these and other articles about Minhaj-ul-Quran that the Pakistan Post printed beginning in January, Mr. Faizi said, he and his editor, Amir Arain, began receiving harassing phone calls.
``They were saying very bad words in Punjabi,`` Mr. Arain said. ``They were saying, `You are not a Muslim, you are supporting Christians.` ``
Both the editor and his columnist contacted Peel Regional Police about the calls twice, once in January and again on Monday, the day before Mr. Faizi was beaten. A police spokeswoman confirmed that a 911 call came from outside Mr. Arain`s home on Tuesday night, prompting an investigation. However, she declined to discuss details of that investigation. She was unable to provide more information on the earlier complaints.
One local immigrant journalist said that the attack against Mr. Faizi is part of a climate of media intimidation that prevails in many home countries.
``It wouldn`t surprise me at all,`` said Saleem Samad, editor of the Toronto-based Weekly Durdesh. ``I`ve also had similar experiences.``
Mr. Samad was forced to leave Bangladesh in 2004 after his writings there provoked a wave of intimidation measures and threats. Since coming to Canada, he said, he received threatening calls after writing about Islamic terrorism, while some of his fellow journalists have received threats after reporting on the Tamil Tigers.
``I know these people, they are very intolerant,`` he said. ``Even if they are in Canada, their mindset doesn`t change. They`re intolerant about political opinion, religious opinion, you name it.``
Many complaints about such intimidation come from writers and editors working for small ethnic and religious-based publications. Most journalists volunteer their time and the ones who are paid tend to take on second jobs. Mr. Samad said that he now advises such journalists to find jobs with security companies, both to make a living and for added protection.
Mr. Faizi spent five hours at Trillium Hospital as a result of the attack on Tuesday, suffering injuries to his arms and head. He and his wife kept their children home from school yesterday, and Peel District School Board officials say the board will meet with police to discuss the situation.
``My kids are asking why they didn`t go to school,`` Mr. Faizi said. ``I told them there was an accident and they have to stay at home. I don`t want to say people attacked me; they will be scared more than me.``
Almost exactly eight years ago, Mr. Faizi said, he had a similar experience in Pakistan after he published photos of a wanted terrorist. The subsequent revenge attack also landed him in a hospital.
#108 Posted by arjun2 on April 20, 2007 8:04:11 am
Don’t fence your graveyard, police tell Ahmadis
* Ahmadis told to remove wall after clerics oppose ‘mini-Rabwah’
LAHORE: Police has asked the Ahamdiyya Community to demolish by today (Friday) a boundary wall on a piece of land it had bought to extend its cemetery, after threats by local clerics who said it was a move to build a “mini-Rabwah”.
The community had bought six acres of land in the outskirts of Lahore to extend an existing cemetery, but local clerics – allegedly from Sunni Tehrik and Tehrik-e-Tahafaz-e-Naomoos-e-Risalat – began to provoke the residents of the locality to oppose the construction of a boundary wall on the land.
The clerics, Daily Times learnt, also made announcements in local mosques and held a couple of demonstrations.
Instead of protecting the community, the police and the local administration are pressuring it to stop the construction and demolish the part of the wall it had already built.
The community had bought the land from an Ahmadi landlord at a place called Handu Gujjar, seven miles from Shalimar Gardens off the Grand Trunk Road going towards Wagah. No local authority or housing society is prepared to offer them space for a cemetery in Lahore.
Part of the land has been a graveyard for 10 years, while the rest of it was vacant. The community had recently begun building a wall around it.
On April 15, 2007, a group of clerics (not from the locality) began to say they would not allow a “mini-Rabwah” in Handu Gujjar. Residents say the place had earlier been peaceful and there was complete inter-communal harmony.
On April 16, the Mughalpura SP summoned representatives of the Ahmadiyya Community and a group of clerics and told them to come to the Manawan police station to “show their strength” knowing that Ahmadis are a minority.
This mobilised the clerics, who used loudspeakers and mosques to urge people to “unite against Ahmadis”. They were able to gather about 150 clerics and madrassa students the next day, convincing the Ahmadis to abandon the “illegal construction”.
Later, the SP said the clerics now wanted the height of the boundary wall lowered from 6 feet high to 4 feet, with barbed wire on the top. In the evening, a group of clerics delivered more speeches on loudspeakers and consequently, a group of 500 to 600 men gathered to give the Ahmadiyya Community a “10-day ultimatum” to demolish the boundary wall.
The SP then told Ahmadis to either demolish the wall or let the government do it, lest a mob of mullahs demolished it itself, which he said police could not stop.
Two days ago, the Ahmadiyya Community received a notice from the local town authority that the construction was illegal. The police has now asked the community to remove the wall by Friday (today).
Mughalpura SP Dr Rizwan was not available for comment, but the station house officer (Manawan police station) said the police could not do anything to protect Ahmadis from clerics. “Only the media can protect the rights of that community,” he said. ali waqar
* Ahmadis told to remove wall after clerics oppose ‘mini-Rabwah’
LAHORE: Police has asked the Ahamdiyya Community to demolish by today (Friday) a boundary wall on a piece of land it had bought to extend its cemetery, after threats by local clerics who said it was a move to build a “mini-Rabwah”.
The community had bought six acres of land in the outskirts of Lahore to extend an existing cemetery, but local clerics – allegedly from Sunni Tehrik and Tehrik-e-Tahafaz-e-Naomoos-e-Risalat – began to provoke the residents of the locality to oppose the construction of a boundary wall on the land.
The clerics, Daily Times learnt, also made announcements in local mosques and held a couple of demonstrations.
Instead of protecting the community, the police and the local administration are pressuring it to stop the construction and demolish the part of the wall it had already built.
The community had bought the land from an Ahmadi landlord at a place called Handu Gujjar, seven miles from Shalimar Gardens off the Grand Trunk Road going towards Wagah. No local authority or housing society is prepared to offer them space for a cemetery in Lahore.
Part of the land has been a graveyard for 10 years, while the rest of it was vacant. The community had recently begun building a wall around it.
On April 15, 2007, a group of clerics (not from the locality) began to say they would not allow a “mini-Rabwah” in Handu Gujjar. Residents say the place had earlier been peaceful and there was complete inter-communal harmony.
On April 16, the Mughalpura SP summoned representatives of the Ahmadiyya Community and a group of clerics and told them to come to the Manawan police station to “show their strength” knowing that Ahmadis are a minority.
This mobilised the clerics, who used loudspeakers and mosques to urge people to “unite against Ahmadis”. They were able to gather about 150 clerics and madrassa students the next day, convincing the Ahmadis to abandon the “illegal construction”.
Later, the SP said the clerics now wanted the height of the boundary wall lowered from 6 feet high to 4 feet, with barbed wire on the top. In the evening, a group of clerics delivered more speeches on loudspeakers and consequently, a group of 500 to 600 men gathered to give the Ahmadiyya Community a “10-day ultimatum” to demolish the boundary wall.
The SP then told Ahmadis to either demolish the wall or let the government do it, lest a mob of mullahs demolished it itself, which he said police could not stop.
Two days ago, the Ahmadiyya Community received a notice from the local town authority that the construction was illegal. The police has now asked the community to remove the wall by Friday (today).
Mughalpura SP Dr Rizwan was not available for comment, but the station house officer (Manawan police station) said the police could not do anything to protect Ahmadis from clerics. “Only the media can protect the rights of that community,” he said. ali waqar
#107 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 20, 2007 8:00:36 am
Re: # 103
Are you saying that Jinnah never made the case in United India that minorities needed to have a difinite share in power to guard their interest against the permanent majority of Hindus?
Are you saying that Jinnah never made the case in United India that minorities needed to have a difinite share in power to guard their interest against the permanent majority of Hindus?
#106 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 20, 2007 7:56:51 am
#98 by Urstruly
“So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him”
No Sir! We are not conceding God to you, He is not the partisan monster that you are making Him out to be.
“So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him”
No Sir! We are not conceding God to you, He is not the partisan monster that you are making Him out to be.
#105 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 7:52:52 am
#101 by Tehsinabbasi,
I don`t think you understood my question. Let me re-phrase it.
What do you think are the negative implications upon civil society, or against the interests of ``other stake holders`` (i.e. in your words the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief) in the event of an Islamist victory, to prevent which there will be civil war?
Now can you be specific please?
Rgds
I don`t think you understood my question. Let me re-phrase it.
What do you think are the negative implications upon civil society, or against the interests of ``other stake holders`` (i.e. in your words the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief) in the event of an Islamist victory, to prevent which there will be civil war?
Now can you be specific please?
Rgds
#104 Posted by shishapa on April 20, 2007 7:44:14 am
So who determines that Pakistan becomes or has become ``Islamic state based on Islamic principles`` and is staying that way?
#103 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 7:42:00 am
Re: # 100
This is prepostrous and shameless obfuscation. The ideas presented in this paragraph are shameless re-writing of the history post-fact. If accepted the whole idea of Two Nations Theory falls flat on its face. The TNT demanded Two nations living under one polity under a constitutional parity as opposed to Congresse`s stance that there existed no minority or majority in India; everyone was one nation. Please keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam always used the option of separate homeland as second option till very late until Cabinet Mission was formed in late 1946 or early 1947. Until then Quadi-e-Azam always propounded the idea of separate-but-equal under one constitution. The idea of United India with a constitutional parity between Hindus and Muslims failed because of the stubborness of Gandhi and Nehru who were of the opinion that even if QA succeeded in creating the state of Pakistan, the state would not last more than 6 months and Muslims would come back crawling on all fours begging to reunite with Union. The rest is history. The Objectives Resolution is the culmination of the ideals that Muslim Leadership long held before partition. And mind you, this was the core argument of Congress against ML that in a Muslim state minorities will exist (and discriminated).
This is prepostrous and shameless obfuscation. The ideas presented in this paragraph are shameless re-writing of the history post-fact. If accepted the whole idea of Two Nations Theory falls flat on its face. The TNT demanded Two nations living under one polity under a constitutional parity as opposed to Congresse`s stance that there existed no minority or majority in India; everyone was one nation. Please keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam always used the option of separate homeland as second option till very late until Cabinet Mission was formed in late 1946 or early 1947. Until then Quadi-e-Azam always propounded the idea of separate-but-equal under one constitution. The idea of United India with a constitutional parity between Hindus and Muslims failed because of the stubborness of Gandhi and Nehru who were of the opinion that even if QA succeeded in creating the state of Pakistan, the state would not last more than 6 months and Muslims would come back crawling on all fours begging to reunite with Union. The rest is history. The Objectives Resolution is the culmination of the ideals that Muslim Leadership long held before partition. And mind you, this was the core argument of Congress against ML that in a Muslim state minorities will exist (and discriminated).
#102 Posted by arjun2 on April 20, 2007 7:36:08 am
#93 by Mantolives on April 20, 2007 2:56am PT
Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs...
It is AND it does..case in point...your ahmedi dad not being able to call himself muslim...a non-muslim having a zero chance of being a CJ(``acting`` CJ doesn`t count), a non-sunni not being able to be the head of the army, PM or president....
Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs...
It is AND it does..case in point...your ahmedi dad not being able to call himself muslim...a non-muslim having a zero chance of being a CJ(``acting`` CJ doesn`t count), a non-sunni not being able to be the head of the army, PM or president....
#101 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 20, 2007 7:34:29 am
#92 by zeemax
“What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?”
No Sir! You are far ahead of me. I do not consider an Islamist victory to be a forgone conclusion. All the other stake holders i.e. the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief are not going to allow to be stepped on by any mullah brigade. This is going to result in a civil war probably worse then what is taking place in Iraq today. I think it is an absolutely essential and worthwhile war if there is any such thing – because we have to know who we are. As you said in your other post …. The unresolved issues from 7th century have to be confronted and resolved one way or the other so that we can at least conjure up a common ethos.
My fear of course is for all our loved ones, especially those who are not stake holders, who are merely trying to eek out a living, they are the ones who will be crushed. Those I would wish to extract.
“What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?”
No Sir! You are far ahead of me. I do not consider an Islamist victory to be a forgone conclusion. All the other stake holders i.e. the army, the feudal lord, the politician, the industrialist, the tribal chief are not going to allow to be stepped on by any mullah brigade. This is going to result in a civil war probably worse then what is taking place in Iraq today. I think it is an absolutely essential and worthwhile war if there is any such thing – because we have to know who we are. As you said in your other post …. The unresolved issues from 7th century have to be confronted and resolved one way or the other so that we can at least conjure up a common ethos.
My fear of course is for all our loved ones, especially those who are not stake holders, who are merely trying to eek out a living, they are the ones who will be crushed. Those I would wish to extract.
#100 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 20, 2007 7:17:04 am
Re: # 93
Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
Excellent point.
Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
Excellent point.
#99 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 6:41:25 am
TEXT OF OBJECTIVES RESOLUTION
It is quite apparent from the text of the OR that there is no place for liberal or secular democracy in Pakistan even though the constitution guarantees a government of the people by the people, and for the people. But people have to stay with in the constitutional freedoms.
Please do note the article # 5 where the word ``free`` was deleted (and replaced with ***) from the original text of the OR during Zia era by Junejo assemblies. The reason for erasing the word ``free` was to make it commensurate with he Islamic edicts where minorities have full freedom to exercise and prolesytize their religion but they cannot prolysetize to Muslim subjects of the state. The Quadiani specific ammendments in the Constitution further restricts this freedom for Quadianis, whose religion in essence is the anti-state and ant-constitution.
Here is the text:
1. Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
2. Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
3. Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
4. Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
5. Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to *** profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
6. Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
7. Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
8. Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
9. Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
#98 Posted by Urstruly on April 20, 2007 6:26:47 am
Re: # 82 Tehsin
``Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values.``
That is what my argument was in my post that there is no place for liberal democracy in any Muslim polity. The system of values of Muslims i.e their religion dons a ceiling over the liberties and sets the limits. Yes there are consequences for having limited liberties within well defined boundries but then there are also consequences with unlimited liberties with no boundries. One has to weigh them side by side objectively and justly.
The main argument in this article is also that the Objective Resolution in the Constitution of 1973, as its Preamble sets forth the ceiling for the liberties in the democratic state of Pakistan. So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him. I do not think a hypocritical middle is possible. It is one or the other.
``Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values.``
That is what my argument was in my post that there is no place for liberal democracy in any Muslim polity. The system of values of Muslims i.e their religion dons a ceiling over the liberties and sets the limits. Yes there are consequences for having limited liberties within well defined boundries but then there are also consequences with unlimited liberties with no boundries. One has to weigh them side by side objectively and justly.
The main argument in this article is also that the Objective Resolution in the Constitution of 1973, as its Preamble sets forth the ceiling for the liberties in the democratic state of Pakistan. So at the end of the day the core of the argument turns out to be whether you are with God or against Him. I do not think a hypocritical middle is possible. It is one or the other.
#97 Posted by majumdar on April 20, 2007 5:18:14 am
Tehsinabbasi sahib,
(A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. )
Becuase sir you have no oil. Plainly speaking, you guys aren`t worth attacking.
Regards
(A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. )
Becuase sir you have no oil. Plainly speaking, you guys aren`t worth attacking.
Regards
#96 Posted by majumdar on April 20, 2007 5:15:23 am
Zeenaji,
(and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi)
Who has told you this? MKG is a matter of ridicule for most Indians. The kind of filthy jokes we used to crack about MKG, doubt if ur friend Manto mian would ever crack about MAJ (pbuh).
Manto mian,
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
What if Islamic belief ( or lets say a religious state based on any particular denomination) requires the state to discriminate between citizens on basis of religious beliefs.
Regards
(and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi)
Who has told you this? MKG is a matter of ridicule for most Indians. The kind of filthy jokes we used to crack about MKG, doubt if ur friend Manto mian would ever crack about MAJ (pbuh).
Manto mian,
(Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... )
What if Islamic belief ( or lets say a religious state based on any particular denomination) requires the state to discriminate between citizens on basis of religious beliefs.
Regards
#95 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 3:13:09 am
#89 by Zeena,
That`s an excellent questionnaire. I think it will be a good idea if the Pakistani chowkies make a start by honestly answering this first :)
That`s an excellent questionnaire. I think it will be a good idea if the Pakistani chowkies make a start by honestly answering this first :)
#94 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 3:06:51 am
#87 by rf786
....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help ...
Rgds
....mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Like what? An example will help ...
Rgds
#93 Posted by MantoLives on April 20, 2007 2:56:31 am
A good article.
The biggest problem/issue with the Objectives Resolution (i.e. ``OR``) was that in the constituent assembly all Muslims except one (Mian Iftikharrudin) voted for the OR and all Non-Muslims voted against it. Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
If we were to ignore this important distinction... yes, then we could argue that it is the democratic right of the majority to choose whatever principles it wishes for its governance. But there is a limit on that as well... i.e. principles of citizenship. Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... This is also guaranteed through the OR and the subsequent constitution.
As far as the discussion goes vis a vis reaffirming Allah`s sovereignty over the entire universe is not the basic issue with the document. After all America is one nation under god... but is still a secular state. The issue was the trojan horse of the priestly class through this portion here:
``the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust``
and
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah ;
I think the author has its finger on the real issue i.e. the one sided nature of the OR... but has made a few mistakes... namely:
1. Pakistan was formed as a Dominion and not a Republic.
2. OR beccame the substantive part of the Constitution only in 1985. Before 1985, Objectives Resolution appeared as a part of the preamble. However, please note that preamble is never an enforceable substantive part.
The text of the OR:
Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
The biggest problem/issue with the Objectives Resolution (i.e. ``OR``) was that in the constituent assembly all Muslims except one (Mian Iftikharrudin) voted for the OR and all Non-Muslims voted against it. Those who consider this ``democracy`` should know that this goes against the very grain of our demands in united India. Consider the fact that Muslim League`s claim in United India was that a permanent minority (i.e. a cultural or ethnic group) should not be forced or coerced by a permanent majority. Non-Muslims in Pakistan were and still are a permanent minority. Hence, for OR to suitably meet the end of the basic principle on which our entire struggle for based, a majority of the minority members should have been sought. Hence we didn`t do to our minorities, what we demanded others to do to us.
If we were to ignore this important distinction... yes, then we could argue that it is the democratic right of the majority to choose whatever principles it wishes for its governance. But there is a limit on that as well... i.e. principles of citizenship. Pakistan can be an Islamic state based on Islamic principles ... but it cannot discriminate between its citizens on the basis of any religious beliefs... This is also guaranteed through the OR and the subsequent constitution.
As far as the discussion goes vis a vis reaffirming Allah`s sovereignty over the entire universe is not the basic issue with the document. After all America is one nation under god... but is still a secular state. The issue was the trojan horse of the priestly class through this portion here:
``the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust``
and
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah ;
I think the author has its finger on the real issue i.e. the one sided nature of the OR... but has made a few mistakes... namely:
1. Pakistan was formed as a Dominion and not a Republic.
2. OR beccame the substantive part of the Constitution only in 1985. Before 1985, Objectives Resolution appeared as a part of the preamble. However, please note that preamble is never an enforceable substantive part.
The text of the OR:
Whereas sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
This Constituent Assembly representing the people of Pakistan resolves to frame a Constitution for the sovereign independent State of Pakistan;
Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;
Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam shall be fully observed;
Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah;
Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures;
Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;
Wherein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;
Wherein adequate provisions shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;
Wherein the independence of the Judiciary shall be fully secured;
Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights includ-ing its sovereign rights on land, sea and air shall be safeguarded;
So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.
#92 Posted by zeemax on April 20, 2007 2:48:20 am
#84 by Tehsinabbasi
But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
Tehsinabbasi saheb, why`re you so depressed? What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?
I mean, Abdul Rashid Ghazi (the Hafsa leader) said on TV the other day that his own wife drives and goes to malls etc for shopping. So I guess they will allow women to drive and you can eliminate at-least that from your paranoia. What else?
Can you please come up with a list of your fears so I may attempt to redress those ... :)
But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
Tehsinabbasi saheb, why`re you so depressed? What is the worst possible do you think these Islamists are going to do you?
I mean, Abdul Rashid Ghazi (the Hafsa leader) said on TV the other day that his own wife drives and goes to malls etc for shopping. So I guess they will allow women to drive and you can eliminate at-least that from your paranoia. What else?
Can you please come up with a list of your fears so I may attempt to redress those ... :)
#91 Posted by rf786 on April 20, 2007 2:25:17 am
Re: # 88
Mr Zeena,
It seems u have lost it completly............
Mr Zeena,
It seems u have lost it completly............
#90 Posted by Zeena on April 20, 2007 12:01:19 am
If majority of Pakistanis wish to practice their religion and wish to adhere to their own cultural values, then why we call their ways of lives as Talibanization?
This thread itself is height of TALIBANIZATION( in terms of fascism and for holding extreme hatred) towards the ways of life of majority of Pakistani citizens.
Talibanization is a term used for fascism and for dictatorialism, where people wish to control and suppress others beliefs and ways of life.
This article and majority of Indians here are showing the exact form of TALIBANIZATION by choking the rights of majority of Pakistanis to live according to their own belief systems and cultural values........................
These people sitting behind their computers and writting carelessly anything that comes to their confused and lost minds....................they are clueless, just clueless in their own bigot world of Talibanization.
So, from now on I will call them Indian Talibans and fundos.................trying to control chowk with their hatred and pseudo minds..........or rather shallow minds.
These are the people who, if, are asked to go to Pakistan and help 80% of poor and oppressed Pakistanis(living in rural areas) and do something for them, b/c they don`t know any other way, but, to enslave themselves in the trap of feudalism, they will refuse or ignore.................................
Those Pakistanis are deprived of their basic needs...................
Do they have any sympathies for them? No.....
They are here on this anon web site to convince us for their false ideas........and in return what are they getting? Nothing........Just a big laugh.....
They have rather become a laughing stock for us...............
Yes, Pakistan is talibanized...........Yes 100% Pakistanis are Talibanis.....Talibanis, My foot.
On the same note I will say, 100% Indians are Talibanized/jihadis/fundos............
And each and every corner of India is Talibanized.....and this happened not today, but, right from the start , when India got it`s freedom from Goras.........Gandhi`s views were exactly like Talibans...............and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi( The biggest Indian Taliban).............
This thread itself is height of TALIBANIZATION( in terms of fascism and for holding extreme hatred) towards the ways of life of majority of Pakistani citizens.
Talibanization is a term used for fascism and for dictatorialism, where people wish to control and suppress others beliefs and ways of life.
This article and majority of Indians here are showing the exact form of TALIBANIZATION by choking the rights of majority of Pakistanis to live according to their own belief systems and cultural values........................
These people sitting behind their computers and writting carelessly anything that comes to their confused and lost minds....................they are clueless, just clueless in their own bigot world of Talibanization.
So, from now on I will call them Indian Talibans and fundos.................trying to control chowk with their hatred and pseudo minds..........or rather shallow minds.
These are the people who, if, are asked to go to Pakistan and help 80% of poor and oppressed Pakistanis(living in rural areas) and do something for them, b/c they don`t know any other way, but, to enslave themselves in the trap of feudalism, they will refuse or ignore.................................
Those Pakistanis are deprived of their basic needs...................
Do they have any sympathies for them? No.....
They are here on this anon web site to convince us for their false ideas........and in return what are they getting? Nothing........Just a big laugh.....
They have rather become a laughing stock for us...............
Yes, Pakistan is talibanized...........Yes 100% Pakistanis are Talibanis.....Talibanis, My foot.
On the same note I will say, 100% Indians are Talibanized/jihadis/fundos............
And each and every corner of India is Talibanized.....and this happened not today, but, right from the start , when India got it`s freedom from Goras.........Gandhi`s views were exactly like Talibans...............and Indians are the followers of the Ghandi( The biggest Indian Taliban).............
#89 Posted by Zeena on April 19, 2007 11:44:40 pm
There is absolutely NO such thing as Talibanization of Pakistan.......
I believe, there should be a referendum in Pakistan.People should be given following choices.............
#1:- Do they wish implementation of sharia laws?
or
#2:- Do they wish the continuation of current system?
or
#3:- Do they wish a secular state?
or
#4:- Do they wish to ban Islam altogether?
Whatever majority of Pakistanis decide, their decision should be respected.
I believe, there should be a referendum in Pakistan.People should be given following choices.............
#1:- Do they wish implementation of sharia laws?
or
#2:- Do they wish the continuation of current system?
or
#3:- Do they wish a secular state?
or
#4:- Do they wish to ban Islam altogether?
Whatever majority of Pakistanis decide, their decision should be respected.
#88 Posted by Zeena on April 19, 2007 11:39:29 pm
#44 by rf786
Madam rf786
LOL...................carry on with your HIGHLY intellectual posts......hahahaha
Madam rf786
LOL...................carry on with your HIGHLY intellectual posts......hahahaha
#87 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 11:18:09 pm
Re: # 78
Zee Sahib,
{There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.}
Believe u me, I have no idea what u r about, and have no immediate need in advancing my very little knowledge of Zeema postings. As for your comments regarding my knowledge regarding Islam, welcome to the widely popular club `judgemental.
Ýaar yeh sub baathein chorain, leave aside these slights, my bad.
What do u think of Muslim thinkers and philosophers who mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
Zee Sahib,
{There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.}
Believe u me, I have no idea what u r about, and have no immediate need in advancing my very little knowledge of Zeema postings. As for your comments regarding my knowledge regarding Islam, welcome to the widely popular club `judgemental.
Ýaar yeh sub baathein chorain, leave aside these slights, my bad.
What do u think of Muslim thinkers and philosophers who mix Arab traditions with Islamic edicts?
#85 Posted by samar1982 on April 19, 2007 9:15:41 pm
Re: # 84, Tehsinabbasi saheb,
This post is like a touching commentary on what I had said metaphorically and somewhat sarcastically in #2. Really it is pathetic to find Pak in such a turbulent situation from which only a soul like Gandhi or Lincoln or Lenin can get it through. But than again, and I am sorry to say that, people get leaders who they deserve. If sensible Pakis living in Pak as well as outside (i.e. living in glass houses though, sorry to say) decide to launch a nation wide movement and don`t fear to die come what may, than perhaps we can hope Pak can still survive. This must be taken as a Jihad against Jihadis. When I read many interacts on Chowk I find that many intellectuals have no qualms about the situation prevailing in Pak and they will be even pleased if Pak is engulfed in a warfare between themselves and even distroyed as long as their kind of Islam (i.e. persistent Jihad/wars) is spread further.
Samar
This post is like a touching commentary on what I had said metaphorically and somewhat sarcastically in #2. Really it is pathetic to find Pak in such a turbulent situation from which only a soul like Gandhi or Lincoln or Lenin can get it through. But than again, and I am sorry to say that, people get leaders who they deserve. If sensible Pakis living in Pak as well as outside (i.e. living in glass houses though, sorry to say) decide to launch a nation wide movement and don`t fear to die come what may, than perhaps we can hope Pak can still survive. This must be taken as a Jihad against Jihadis. When I read many interacts on Chowk I find that many intellectuals have no qualms about the situation prevailing in Pak and they will be even pleased if Pak is engulfed in a warfare between themselves and even distroyed as long as their kind of Islam (i.e. persistent Jihad/wars) is spread further.
Samar
#84 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 19, 2007 8:05:33 pm
#7 by Urstruly
“In the past 7 years, both, the corrupt ruling class and the Edifiers i.e. Talibans have realized the fact that ``GHee seedhee ungli se nahiN nikle ga``. No matter what happens, but there is only one outcome of the conflict and that outcome is the manifest destiny of Democratic Islamic Emirates of Pakistan. Inshallah. Those who laid down 1 million lives in this cause are now ready to sacrifice whatever it takes.”
I am sad to say that I agree with you – I have the same premonition. A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. Only thing I could think was “jissay Allah rakhey usay kon chukhay”. We had this golden opportunity to mend our evil ways, but alas no one can save us from ourselves.
Externally we have alienated just about everybody that we could alienate. India would take us on nuclear or otherwise, Afghanistan and Iran are mad, forget the West, China is more of an American ally and ready to administer even worse punishment when it comes to religion. Internally every ethnicity, class, sect and region is at loggerheads with one another and poised to pounce at the first sign of trouble. We are going to have a civil war with every one fighting everyone else. I don’t see any firm alliances or battle lines. Basically, we have lost our soul and this war is absolutely essential for us to reclaim some semblance of who we are. Some of us will fight for our religion – others will fight for humanity. But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
“In the past 7 years, both, the corrupt ruling class and the Edifiers i.e. Talibans have realized the fact that ``GHee seedhee ungli se nahiN nikle ga``. No matter what happens, but there is only one outcome of the conflict and that outcome is the manifest destiny of Democratic Islamic Emirates of Pakistan. Inshallah. Those who laid down 1 million lives in this cause are now ready to sacrifice whatever it takes.”
I am sad to say that I agree with you – I have the same premonition. A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. Only thing I could think was “jissay Allah rakhey usay kon chukhay”. We had this golden opportunity to mend our evil ways, but alas no one can save us from ourselves.
Externally we have alienated just about everybody that we could alienate. India would take us on nuclear or otherwise, Afghanistan and Iran are mad, forget the West, China is more of an American ally and ready to administer even worse punishment when it comes to religion. Internally every ethnicity, class, sect and region is at loggerheads with one another and poised to pounce at the first sign of trouble. We are going to have a civil war with every one fighting everyone else. I don’t see any firm alliances or battle lines. Basically, we have lost our soul and this war is absolutely essential for us to reclaim some semblance of who we are. Some of us will fight for our religion – others will fight for humanity. But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.
#83 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 19, 2007 7:34:24 pm
#61 by zeemax
Hi Buddy:
I have definitely noticed it, absorbed it and would love it, if you would continue.
Hi Buddy:
I have definitely noticed it, absorbed it and would love it, if you would continue.
#82 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 19, 2007 7:25:06 pm
#77 by Urstruly
“By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish.”
Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values. Pursuit of happiness could even be regarded as an anti religious concept. Similarly the 4 cardinal virtues justice, courage (fortitude), temperance (self control) and prudence (wisdom) are straight from Aristotle’s Nicomechean Ethics. Christian values of hope, faith and charity do not have a place in the American state, they can only be seen in Christian charities etc. Even in China of today it is still Confucian values which are adhered to by the majority and he was no theologian. John Locke and other philosophers of the enlightenment had rid themselves of the pall of religion and immersed themselves in a Classical education – read the federalist papers, the correspondence between Jefferson and Adams, the discussions don’t revolve around Jesus and his apostles it is more about Plato, Cisero, Cato and Julius Ceasar.
“By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish.”
Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values. Pursuit of happiness could even be regarded as an anti religious concept. Similarly the 4 cardinal virtues justice, courage (fortitude), temperance (self control) and prudence (wisdom) are straight from Aristotle’s Nicomechean Ethics. Christian values of hope, faith and charity do not have a place in the American state, they can only be seen in Christian charities etc. Even in China of today it is still Confucian values which are adhered to by the majority and he was no theologian. John Locke and other philosophers of the enlightenment had rid themselves of the pall of religion and immersed themselves in a Classical education – read the federalist papers, the correspondence between Jefferson and Adams, the discussions don’t revolve around Jesus and his apostles it is more about Plato, Cisero, Cato and Julius Ceasar.
#81 Posted by arjun2 on April 19, 2007 1:26:16 pm
great..pakis are now 4 out of 4...
China jails Muslim separatist
China has sentenced a Muslim activist to life in prison for taking part in ``terrorist activities and plotting to split the country``.
The Chinese court ruled on Thursday that Huseyin Celil was a member of the East Turkestan Liberation Organisation and said that he was guilty of helping Chinese Muslims to travel to Pakistan for military training.
China jails Muslim separatist
China has sentenced a Muslim activist to life in prison for taking part in ``terrorist activities and plotting to split the country``.
The Chinese court ruled on Thursday that Huseyin Celil was a member of the East Turkestan Liberation Organisation and said that he was guilty of helping Chinese Muslims to travel to Pakistan for military training.
#80 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 12:02:13 pm
#65 by kaalchakra,
....knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)...
They all carry the flag. They just don`t know what it represents, but they`ll still do it. They will never turn away. None.
That`s Islam. But you know. :-;)
....knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)...
They all carry the flag. They just don`t know what it represents, but they`ll still do it. They will never turn away. None.
That`s Islam. But you know. :-;)
#79 Posted by arjun2 on April 19, 2007 11:59:43 am
#77 by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 11:27am PT
There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative.
So in an Islamic democracy, the islamic part would force the citizens to take a dump just like mo did in the 7th century and the democracy part would be responsible for the sewage system that carries away the crap...?
There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative.
So in an Islamic democracy, the islamic part would force the citizens to take a dump just like mo did in the 7th century and the democracy part would be responsible for the sewage system that carries away the crap...?
#78 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 11:38:04 am
#71 by rf786,
If i am not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.
There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.
But I don`t think I can help you. If you really want to know, ask Kaalchakra, who isn`t a Muslim. Only then you`ll maybe believe him. Not me.
I don`t care whom you believe. As long as you do.
Rgds.
If i am not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.
There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.
But I don`t think I can help you. If you really want to know, ask Kaalchakra, who isn`t a Muslim. Only then you`ll maybe believe him. Not me.
I don`t care whom you believe. As long as you do.
Rgds.
#77 Posted by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 11:27:28 am
Re: # 70
``Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy.``
This is an important point. But the realization of this contrdiction was there all the time - whether it is Syed Qutub`s or Syed Moududi`s political philosophy. There has always been a consensus among all Islamists that there is no place for ``liberal or secular democracy`` in an Islamic/Muslim state. Both are mutually exclusive. The concept has always been very clear in the minds of educated Islamists.
There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative. The administrative aspect is more like running a municipality - people will need efficient government services no matter what ideology they subscribe to, hence things like healthcare, infrastructure, and various institutions are independent of ideology of the government. But at ideological level, every law that a polity chooses to regulate itself with has its basis in the set of values of that society. This is the social aspect of government. As the definition goes, the laws are merely codification of a value system. A secular society has all laws based on separation of church and state; similarly a society that derives its values from a religion has all social laws based as such. It is absurd to tell a religious society that while their God was correct in giving them individual code of ethics, He could not give them a societal law. Therefore, a society where cousin marriages are considered valid according to the system of values the laws will be made as such. And a society where marriage between two men is a value the marital law will be reflective of that.
But secularism has its contradictions too. By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish. So in a secularist society if someone wishes to marry his mother`s corpse, no law can prohibit him. In other words a secular society cannot have a moral compass.
``Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy.``
This is an important point. But the realization of this contrdiction was there all the time - whether it is Syed Qutub`s or Syed Moududi`s political philosophy. There has always been a consensus among all Islamists that there is no place for ``liberal or secular democracy`` in an Islamic/Muslim state. Both are mutually exclusive. The concept has always been very clear in the minds of educated Islamists.
There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative. The administrative aspect is more like running a municipality - people will need efficient government services no matter what ideology they subscribe to, hence things like healthcare, infrastructure, and various institutions are independent of ideology of the government. But at ideological level, every law that a polity chooses to regulate itself with has its basis in the set of values of that society. This is the social aspect of government. As the definition goes, the laws are merely codification of a value system. A secular society has all laws based on separation of church and state; similarly a society that derives its values from a religion has all social laws based as such. It is absurd to tell a religious society that while their God was correct in giving them individual code of ethics, He could not give them a societal law. Therefore, a society where cousin marriages are considered valid according to the system of values the laws will be made as such. And a society where marriage between two men is a value the marital law will be reflective of that.
But secularism has its contradictions too. By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish. So in a secularist society if someone wishes to marry his mother`s corpse, no law can prohibit him. In other words a secular society cannot have a moral compass.
#76 Posted by Indian on April 19, 2007 11:22:05 am
Re: # 40
Zeenajee,
Quite franly we Indians dont give two hoots about Pakistan`s talibanization. A Pakistan, Progressive or Talibanized. We couldn`t care less one way or the other. I was just trying to bring contradictions to your views to one of your compatriots.
PS: We will leave you alone, just dont send those Burqa clad women to our Kashmir .....
Zeenajee,
Quite franly we Indians dont give two hoots about Pakistan`s talibanization. A Pakistan, Progressive or Talibanized. We couldn`t care less one way or the other. I was just trying to bring contradictions to your views to one of your compatriots.
PS: We will leave you alone, just dont send those Burqa clad women to our Kashmir .....
#75 Posted by Netizen on April 19, 2007 11:18:36 am
Re: # 69
rf786
``My judge is the ONE and only One``
why not two or three or four....(just curious.)
wouldn`t it be just a lonely existence otherwise.
rf786
``My judge is the ONE and only One``
why not two or three or four....(just curious.)
wouldn`t it be just a lonely existence otherwise.
#74 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 10:34:06 am
``free omar sheikh``
That will not serve anyone`s purpose, arjun. Omar Sheikh will not be hanged. Zee Ustaad understands that, and being the only ustaad on Chowk is willing to explain that to anyone who cares to learn.
(for that matter rf786 too fully understands that, unless he disappoints us by claiming that he doesn`t :))
That will not serve anyone`s purpose, arjun. Omar Sheikh will not be hanged. Zee Ustaad understands that, and being the only ustaad on Chowk is willing to explain that to anyone who cares to learn.
(for that matter rf786 too fully understands that, unless he disappoints us by claiming that he doesn`t :))
#73 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 10:27:03 am
rf786
Aap tau naraz ho gaye, even when I did say that unlike Mr. Aamer (what we have seen of him until now), you know your game. One doesn`t have to agree with someone to respect his or her understanding.
Aap tau naraz ho gaye, even when I did say that unlike Mr. Aamer (what we have seen of him until now), you know your game. One doesn`t have to agree with someone to respect his or her understanding.
#72 Posted by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 9:39:45 am
Re: # 68
The drug-pusher analogy is correct. However, Islam is not the only drug that military industrial complex pushes. That is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Currently, the Complex is pushing the drug of ``enlightened modernity`` and secularism. As I said, it is a vicious circle people of Pakistan are in. The Islamists (fewer and fewer of them now)think that if the didn`t help military in its ``endeavors`` it will put the scourge of secularism on this country; the modernists on the other hand (more and more of them now) think that the bandwagon of ``enlightened moderation`` will get them to the realization of their wet dreams that that had for the longest time. But in reality, does Miliatry gives a shit to to anyone of these agendas? I think everybody on this forum knows the answer.
The drug-pusher analogy is correct. However, Islam is not the only drug that military industrial complex pushes. That is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Currently, the Complex is pushing the drug of ``enlightened modernity`` and secularism. As I said, it is a vicious circle people of Pakistan are in. The Islamists (fewer and fewer of them now)think that if the didn`t help military in its ``endeavors`` it will put the scourge of secularism on this country; the modernists on the other hand (more and more of them now) think that the bandwagon of ``enlightened moderation`` will get them to the realization of their wet dreams that that had for the longest time. But in reality, does Miliatry gives a shit to to anyone of these agendas? I think everybody on this forum knows the answer.
#71 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 9:29:46 am
Re: # 54
Zee Sahib,
Are you not confusing tribal values with the basic principles of religion? OBL and Mullah Omar both represent the Beduin traditional values, nothing to do with the progressive value system inculcated by Mohammed. Caliph Omar was part o fthe same time capsule as that of the prophet, but these OBL`s, Wahab, Mullah Omer represent obscurantist ideals which are closer to the Ahle Quraish before Islam. Thats my perspective, If iam not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.
{....I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.}
Zee Sahib,
Are you not confusing tribal values with the basic principles of religion? OBL and Mullah Omar both represent the Beduin traditional values, nothing to do with the progressive value system inculcated by Mohammed. Caliph Omar was part o fthe same time capsule as that of the prophet, but these OBL`s, Wahab, Mullah Omer represent obscurantist ideals which are closer to the Ahle Quraish before Islam. Thats my perspective, If iam not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.
{....I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.}
#70 Posted by khurram on April 19, 2007 9:22:38 am
Re; #58, rafi-aamer,
You have yourself pointed out that from the beginning there has been a desire to make Islam a part of the political life (e.g. Objectives Resoulution). At the same time, there has been a desire for democarcy. You probably think this is a contradiction. Maybe so. But most of the people of Pakistan are not convinced. They are working out the concept in practice.
Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy. They will have to give up either Islam (in public life) or democracy (As someone said, ``selection, not election``).
Or maybe, they will come up with concepts of `Islamic` and `democracy` such that the 2 can work together.
I am rooting for the 2nd option.
You have yourself pointed out that from the beginning there has been a desire to make Islam a part of the political life (e.g. Objectives Resoulution). At the same time, there has been a desire for democarcy. You probably think this is a contradiction. Maybe so. But most of the people of Pakistan are not convinced. They are working out the concept in practice.
Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy. They will have to give up either Islam (in public life) or democracy (As someone said, ``selection, not election``).
Or maybe, they will come up with concepts of `Islamic` and `democracy` such that the 2 can work together.
I am rooting for the 2nd option.
#69 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 9:20:35 am
Re: # 53
{From a religious perspective, everybody is, has been a Muslim?}
Not in the literal sense as implied in your statement, from a theological perspective where God creates everything and is Raab ul Alimeen.
{P.s.: (even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib)? Even the boy who shot all these virginia tech students? }
Now you are playing with words, surely you have the ability to read and understand what the message explicitly stated.
{rt786 bhai, do you follow a religion or some sort of black magic?}
Whatever may be my choice, it will be mine and not for you or anyone else to judge or decide. My judge is the ONE and only One, nothing to do with little idols made in Taiwan or Afghanistaan.
{From a religious perspective, everybody is, has been a Muslim?}
Not in the literal sense as implied in your statement, from a theological perspective where God creates everything and is Raab ul Alimeen.
{P.s.: (even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib)? Even the boy who shot all these virginia tech students? }
Now you are playing with words, surely you have the ability to read and understand what the message explicitly stated.
{rt786 bhai, do you follow a religion or some sort of black magic?}
Whatever may be my choice, it will be mine and not for you or anyone else to judge or decide. My judge is the ONE and only One, nothing to do with little idols made in Taiwan or Afghanistaan.
#68 Posted by arjun2 on April 19, 2007 9:17:48 am
#66 by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 9:00am PT
maulana urstruly: the paki aam junta is a junkie high on islam and the paki army is the drug dealer..sure, the drug dealer may occasionally indulge in some of his product but he makes his living on peddling his stuff, not keeping it himself...
the junkie-pusher analogy fits perfectly..the drug lords are themselves rarely addicted to their product but the lowest level distributor, in this case the lower levels of the army, are almost always addict...
maulana urstruly: the paki aam junta is a junkie high on islam and the paki army is the drug dealer..sure, the drug dealer may occasionally indulge in some of his product but he makes his living on peddling his stuff, not keeping it himself...
the junkie-pusher analogy fits perfectly..the drug lords are themselves rarely addicted to their product but the lowest level distributor, in this case the lower levels of the army, are almost always addict...
#67 Posted by arjun2 on April 19, 2007 9:12:19 am
#62 by zeemax on April 19, 2007 8:16am PT
The blunders go on and the Jihad moves on ... and with a Lincoln`s Inn graduate back in the force!
If you think there is any way the US government will let the paki government free omar sheikh, you`re off-the-paki-deluded-charts deluded...
The blunders go on and the Jihad moves on ... and with a Lincoln`s Inn graduate back in the force!
If you think there is any way the US government will let the paki government free omar sheikh, you`re off-the-paki-deluded-charts deluded...
#66 Posted by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 9:00:36 am
Given the 60 years of history of Pakistan armed forces, and the number of times they have somersaulted on ideological stances, and not to mention their total disregard for the constitution, it is naive to think that the so-called ``agencies`` have any ideological relationship with the Islamists or Jihadies. From time to time it has been a marriage of convenience, no doubt, but ideologically they are as far apart as Americans were from the Afghan Mujahideen during Soviet era.
Pak Armed forces is the true manifestation of the Military Industrial complex set up on corporate model where members have mob like loyalty to the self interest of organization. This is the mindest that Pak army has inherited from the time when East India Company first established colonies on the coast of Bengal and established their first security forces consisting of locals to save their establishments from the ``decoits``. These security forces wee later transformed into the British Indian Army. The brainwashing that was done to those recruits was so effective that that army had no qualms about butchering their own people. The tradition and mindset still persists. Quaid-e-Azam was the first to realize this cancer and fired the first CinC of Pak Armed forces, General Gracey, on the spot when later refused to take part in the jihad of Kashmir. Had Quaid lived a little bit longer he would have purged the military from officers like Sikandar Mirza, Ayub Khan and others who later destroyed this nation and country.
It is a vicious circle. The NaPak fauj will never accept the dominance of civilian rule and it will do everything in its power to cause the failure of a government of people, by the people and for the people, whether these people are Islamists or atheist/modernists. So anyone who ``partners`` with NaPak fouj assume that it will carry its agenda is merely fooling himself. The ``smart`` people have realized this and joined the club who considers Pakistan as ``halwai ki dukaan, nana jaan ki fateha`` and eat it 24/7.
#65 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 8:31:08 am
Precisely, Zee, no fair person can have a problem with that, at all. That`s logical and is just what should be expected.
It`s gentlemen like rafi_aamer who need to understand the nature of Jihad or Islam. But you would say, and that would be true, that a soldier can be used without his or her knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)
(My guess is rf786 is not ignorant. He knows his game.)
It`s gentlemen like rafi_aamer who need to understand the nature of Jihad or Islam. But you would say, and that would be true, that a soldier can be used without his or her knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)
(My guess is rf786 is not ignorant. He knows his game.)
#64 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 19, 2007 8:24:27 am
Re: # 61
I will try my best to absorb what you wrote though I can`t promise a success in that :)
Thanks.
Rafi
I will try my best to absorb what you wrote though I can`t promise a success in that :)
Thanks.
Rafi
#63 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 19, 2007 8:19:52 am
Re: # 60
Omar Sheikh hasn`t been hanged yet. His case is on appeal. After Khalid Sheikh Muhammad`s alleged confession (alleged because KSM hasn`t been tried yet for his crimes and may never go thru an open court trial), the case has taken a new dimension because, earlier, the government of Pakistan had named Omar Sheikh for killing Daniel Pearle. The last I heard, Omar`s lawyer was preparing to file a new appeal based on reports from Pentagon about KSM`s confession.
Omar Sheikh hasn`t been hanged yet. His case is on appeal. After Khalid Sheikh Muhammad`s alleged confession (alleged because KSM hasn`t been tried yet for his crimes and may never go thru an open court trial), the case has taken a new dimension because, earlier, the government of Pakistan had named Omar Sheikh for killing Daniel Pearle. The last I heard, Omar`s lawyer was preparing to file a new appeal based on reports from Pentagon about KSM`s confession.
#62 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 8:16:24 am
#60 by kaalchakra,
Lemme butt in to answer this question.
Omar Saeed Sheikh was convicted of murdering Daniel Pearl and sentenced to death in Hyderabad jail which was still to be carried out. In the meantime, the americans got Khalid Sheikh Muhammad to confess (amongst the 45 or so confessions) that he had personally beheaded Daniel Pearl.
At that, Omar Saeed Sheikh`s defence has lodged an appeal that since another man has confessed to the crime, Omar Saeed is wrongly accused and convicted and must be exonerated and acquitted.
They`ll win. There can be no further argument.
The blunders go on and the Jihad moves on ... and with a Lincoln`s Inn graduate back in the force!
So there :)
Lemme butt in to answer this question.
Omar Saeed Sheikh was convicted of murdering Daniel Pearl and sentenced to death in Hyderabad jail which was still to be carried out. In the meantime, the americans got Khalid Sheikh Muhammad to confess (amongst the 45 or so confessions) that he had personally beheaded Daniel Pearl.
At that, Omar Saeed Sheikh`s defence has lodged an appeal that since another man has confessed to the crime, Omar Saeed is wrongly accused and convicted and must be exonerated and acquitted.
They`ll win. There can be no further argument.
The blunders go on and the Jihad moves on ... and with a Lincoln`s Inn graduate back in the force!
So there :)
#61 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 8:04:25 am
#58 by rafi_aamer,
I`m glad you noticed that.
Unresolved issues are the progress of `Islamic Democracy` onwards following Muhammad`s death and the revolt of Ansaar against the Muhajareen, pacified by the Companions (Abu Bakr/Umar/Abu Ubaidah) as a priority (instead of crushing them or turning against them) before even burying Muhammad who was left unburied, to attend to the crisis because it was more important than burying Muhammad, for the unity of Muslims; and the bowing to people`s will which prevailed throughout the first four`s reign which resulted in three out of the four being assassinated by common men while without a single personal guard around to prevent the people`s verdict upon them being carried out.
Has anyone seen a bigger `democracy` than that?
If you first absorb the above, we may continue.
Rgds.
I`m glad you noticed that.
Unresolved issues are the progress of `Islamic Democracy` onwards following Muhammad`s death and the revolt of Ansaar against the Muhajareen, pacified by the Companions (Abu Bakr/Umar/Abu Ubaidah) as a priority (instead of crushing them or turning against them) before even burying Muhammad who was left unburied, to attend to the crisis because it was more important than burying Muhammad, for the unity of Muslims; and the bowing to people`s will which prevailed throughout the first four`s reign which resulted in three out of the four being assassinated by common men while without a single personal guard around to prevent the people`s verdict upon them being carried out.
Has anyone seen a bigger `democracy` than that?
If you first absorb the above, we may continue.
Rgds.
#60 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 7:58:46 am
rafi_ammer sahib, do you have any information about Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh? Has he been hanged yet, or how that case might be progressing?
#59 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 19, 2007 7:39:39 am
Re: # 56
Faruk,
I am not sure how did the agencies manage the jihadi elements. By putting them out of business or asking them to lie low for the time being? Only time will tell.
Rafi
Faruk,
I am not sure how did the agencies manage the jihadi elements. By putting them out of business or asking them to lie low for the time being? Only time will tell.
Rafi
#58 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 19, 2007 7:28:47 am
Re: # 48
Zeemax,
I wanted to ask the question before but couldn`t get time. Khurram and you have referred to something as working out the unresolved issues. I would like to know what is it that you are referring to.
Thanks,
Rafi
Zeemax,
I wanted to ask the question before but couldn`t get time. Khurram and you have referred to something as working out the unresolved issues. I would like to know what is it that you are referring to.
Thanks,
Rafi
#57 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 19, 2007 7:25:35 am
Re: # 43
Zeena,
You keep criticizing things that I didn`t write in my article. Nowhere did I say that the main reason for corruption in Pakistan were Mullahs. I was trying to have a discussion but you seem to be having a munazra. Unfortunately, I don`t like to have munazras. So, I hope you will forgive me for ignoring your posts from this point on.
Let`s just say, going by the number of LOL`s in your posts, that I am glad my article provided you some comic relief so it wasn`t a totally worthless effort. I hope to provide you some more in future.
Regards,
Rafi Aamer
Zeena,
You keep criticizing things that I didn`t write in my article. Nowhere did I say that the main reason for corruption in Pakistan were Mullahs. I was trying to have a discussion but you seem to be having a munazra. Unfortunately, I don`t like to have munazras. So, I hope you will forgive me for ignoring your posts from this point on.
Let`s just say, going by the number of LOL`s in your posts, that I am glad my article provided you some comic relief so it wasn`t a totally worthless effort. I hope to provide you some more in future.
Regards,
Rafi Aamer
#56 Posted by Faruk on April 19, 2007 7:08:47 am
Re : rafi_aamer # 32
“There is a lot of blame to go all around for the situation. A major part of the problem are the elements within the so-called ``sensitive`` agencies in Pakistan. They were given the task to handle Mujahideen during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan but instead of just handling, they got married to the Jihadi ideology and now are a major scare for anyone who wants to fix things.”
Rafi,
I feel that the agencies have done a good job of managing the jihadi elements. I suspect the Jamia Hafsa incident was instigated by them to divert attention from the chief justice and those pesky lawyers. The army likes to present itself as the lesser evil.
Regards,
Faruk
“There is a lot of blame to go all around for the situation. A major part of the problem are the elements within the so-called ``sensitive`` agencies in Pakistan. They were given the task to handle Mujahideen during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan but instead of just handling, they got married to the Jihadi ideology and now are a major scare for anyone who wants to fix things.”
Rafi,
I feel that the agencies have done a good job of managing the jihadi elements. I suspect the Jamia Hafsa incident was instigated by them to divert attention from the chief justice and those pesky lawyers. The army likes to present itself as the lesser evil.
Regards,
Faruk
#55 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 7:00:00 am
....#54 correction ..
...half a decade of efforts to championing Islam should read ...half a century of efforts to championing Islam.
...half a decade of efforts to championing Islam should read ...half a century of efforts to championing Islam.
#54 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 6:49:52 am
#49 by rf786
Zia used it, Obl uses it, our Mma uses it, Syed Qutb Used it ... What makes this time different ...
Let`s take these one by one:
Zia: He kept power for 11 years using the epitaph of Nizam-e-Mustafa, but didn`t even know what it meant otherwise he wouldn`t have hanged ZAB on a false charge (now publicly admitted by one of the consenting judges and later the CJ of Supreme Court Nasim Hasan Shah), mass floggings of political workers and journalists, and public hangings just to instill fear amongst his own people. Nizam-e-Mustafa, above all, means justice.
OBL: He rightly uses the concept, though he has never even mentioned Muhammad as far as I remember. I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.
Mma: Please see my comment below about `sarkarai` Mullahs. They will go wherever their political expediency takes them, such as the recent conference of the `Federation of Madrassas` (dunno what that is .. ) sponsored by Maulana Fazlur-Rahman condemning the actions of Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa as being `unislamic`. What else can they do when the latter have snatched the limelight from their half a decade of efforts to championing Islam?
Syed Qutb: Usama and Mullah Umar follow the Syed Qutb model for revival so my comment remains the same in this respect as given for Usama.
As for what makes this time different? I think the answer should be obvious in the results.
Rgds
Zia used it, Obl uses it, our Mma uses it, Syed Qutb Used it ... What makes this time different ...
Let`s take these one by one:
Zia: He kept power for 11 years using the epitaph of Nizam-e-Mustafa, but didn`t even know what it meant otherwise he wouldn`t have hanged ZAB on a false charge (now publicly admitted by one of the consenting judges and later the CJ of Supreme Court Nasim Hasan Shah), mass floggings of political workers and journalists, and public hangings just to instill fear amongst his own people. Nizam-e-Mustafa, above all, means justice.
OBL: He rightly uses the concept, though he has never even mentioned Muhammad as far as I remember. I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.
Mma: Please see my comment below about `sarkarai` Mullahs. They will go wherever their political expediency takes them, such as the recent conference of the `Federation of Madrassas` (dunno what that is .. ) sponsored by Maulana Fazlur-Rahman condemning the actions of Lal Masjid/Jamia Hafsa as being `unislamic`. What else can they do when the latter have snatched the limelight from their half a decade of efforts to championing Islam?
Syed Qutb: Usama and Mullah Umar follow the Syed Qutb model for revival so my comment remains the same in this respect as given for Usama.
As for what makes this time different? I think the answer should be obvious in the results.
Rgds
#53 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 6:34:07 am
rt786
From a religious perspective, everybody is, has been a Muslim?
P.s.: (even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib)? Even the boy who shot all these virginia tech students?
rt786 bhai, do you follow a religion or some sort of black magic?
From a religious perspective, everybody is, has been a Muslim?
P.s.: (even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib)? Even the boy who shot all these virginia tech students?
rt786 bhai, do you follow a religion or some sort of black magic?
#52 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 6:24:40 am
Re: # 50
Islam is not only Mohammad as described and preached by the prophet. According to Muslim faith and nearly all other faiths, God (Allah) created the universe, therefore by default all prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus are all Muslims ie followers of Islam. From a relgious perspective, who is to decide when Islam started or finished or short-wired that is a subjective discussion and is influenced by events and history of that period.
As for the current global village concept (thanks to the west) Pakistan is still 50-100 years behind in terms of achieving that state of achievement. And Jinnah wud strongly disagree with your views regarding creation of Pakistan for muslims only.
Islam is not only Mohammad as described and preached by the prophet. According to Muslim faith and nearly all other faiths, God (Allah) created the universe, therefore by default all prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus are all Muslims ie followers of Islam. From a relgious perspective, who is to decide when Islam started or finished or short-wired that is a subjective discussion and is influenced by events and history of that period.
As for the current global village concept (thanks to the west) Pakistan is still 50-100 years behind in terms of achieving that state of achievement. And Jinnah wud strongly disagree with your views regarding creation of Pakistan for muslims only.
#51 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 6:24:34 am
Re: # 50
Islam is not only Mohammad as described and preached by the prophet. According to Muslim faith and nearly all other faiths, God (Allah) created the universe, therefore by default all prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus are all Muslims ie followers of Islam. From a relgious perspective, who is to decide when Islam started or finished or short-wired that is a subjective discussion and is influenced by events and history of that period.
As for the current global village concept (thanks to the west) Pakistan is still 50-100 years behind in terms of achieving that state of achievement. And Jinnah wud strongly disagree with your views regarding creation of Pakistan for muslims only.
Islam is not only Mohammad as described and preached by the prophet. According to Muslim faith and nearly all other faiths, God (Allah) created the universe, therefore by default all prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus are all Muslims ie followers of Islam. From a relgious perspective, who is to decide when Islam started or finished or short-wired that is a subjective discussion and is influenced by events and history of that period.
As for the current global village concept (thanks to the west) Pakistan is still 50-100 years behind in terms of achieving that state of achievement. And Jinnah wud strongly disagree with your views regarding creation of Pakistan for muslims only.
#50 Posted by KaalChakra on April 19, 2007 5:52:41 am
rf76
You have to agree with Zee that Muhammad`s Islam (as Zee and teshah describe it) was short-lived. Islam never really get a fair chance afterwards.
That fair chance exists today in Pakistan. In a country decidedly made for Muslims. In today`s world of telecommunications. Using the most advanced education available to anyone.
You have to agree with Zee that Muhammad`s Islam (as Zee and teshah describe it) was short-lived. Islam never really get a fair chance afterwards.
That fair chance exists today in Pakistan. In a country decidedly made for Muslims. In today`s world of telecommunications. Using the most advanced education available to anyone.
#49 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 4:47:54 am
Re: # 48
Zee Sahib,
welcome back. Aapnay farmiya:
{What you`re seeing now is a revival of `back to the basics` and take it on from there, so the unresolved issues will be resolved in due course}
How many times in the past 1500 (fifteen hundred) years have we heard that comment before? Zia used it, Obl uses it, our Mma uses it, Syed Qutb Used it. Even the Xtian right wing uses it everytime they see a catastrophe and whip their flock into a frenzy against the evil forces of this world, promising a return to the ways of Jesus.
What makes this time different to all the other fake or undelivered promises?
Zee Sahib,
welcome back. Aapnay farmiya:
{What you`re seeing now is a revival of `back to the basics` and take it on from there, so the unresolved issues will be resolved in due course}
How many times in the past 1500 (fifteen hundred) years have we heard that comment before? Zia used it, Obl uses it, our Mma uses it, Syed Qutb Used it. Even the Xtian right wing uses it everytime they see a catastrophe and whip their flock into a frenzy against the evil forces of this world, promising a return to the ways of Jesus.
What makes this time different to all the other fake or undelivered promises?
#48 Posted by zeemax on April 19, 2007 3:02:14 am
Aaah .. back to being zeemax!
#10 by khurram / #11 by kaalchakra
... What you are seeing is the working out of unresolved issues in the concept of ``Islamic democracy`` ... It came naturally to all great social thinkers such as Iqbal, Jinnah, and Zulfie Bhutto.....
Though you missed `zeemax` amongst the above :)
Working out of unresolved issues is correct in Khurram`s comment. As I had elaborated elsewhere, Muhammad`s Islam was quite short-lived, which was derailed and atrophied at Karbala and has remained so since then because `malookiat` had set-in. What you`re seeing now is a revival of `back to the basics` and take it on from there, so the unresolved issues will be resolved in due course.
#10 by khurram / #11 by kaalchakra
... What you are seeing is the working out of unresolved issues in the concept of ``Islamic democracy`` ... It came naturally to all great social thinkers such as Iqbal, Jinnah, and Zulfie Bhutto.....
Though you missed `zeemax` amongst the above :)
Working out of unresolved issues is correct in Khurram`s comment. As I had elaborated elsewhere, Muhammad`s Islam was quite short-lived, which was derailed and atrophied at Karbala and has remained so since then because `malookiat` had set-in. What you`re seeing now is a revival of `back to the basics` and take it on from there, so the unresolved issues will be resolved in due course.
#47 Posted by adamkhan on April 19, 2007 2:14:33 am
Ok. This is Zeemax and not adamkhan:
The recent incidents are a troubling indication that Musharraf has miserably failed to curtail the influence of Mullahs in Pakistan. The Talibanization, Pakistan-style, is nearing its completion.
This is quite a good article as far as the history of the objectives resolution is concerned, but it is quite presumptuous in lumping the Tanzeemis, the fedayeen, the Tableeghis, the mosque pulpit cryer, and most importantly, the political moulvi who is sometimes sarkari/sometimes in opposition ... all into the same basket as `Mullas`.
These are all as different from each other as anyone else, and all have different ideologies, motives and objectives. The only thing common amongst them is perhaps the name `Islam`, but then again, everyone calls themselves a Muslim, don`t they?
It is upto the liberal (Muslim?) civil society`s choice which of them they want to accept, and which one to reject. But they have to make a choice because Islam has been the country`s overriding governance mode from the very outset.
Regards
Zeemax ... not adamkhan
The recent incidents are a troubling indication that Musharraf has miserably failed to curtail the influence of Mullahs in Pakistan. The Talibanization, Pakistan-style, is nearing its completion.
This is quite a good article as far as the history of the objectives resolution is concerned, but it is quite presumptuous in lumping the Tanzeemis, the fedayeen, the Tableeghis, the mosque pulpit cryer, and most importantly, the political moulvi who is sometimes sarkari/sometimes in opposition ... all into the same basket as `Mullas`.
These are all as different from each other as anyone else, and all have different ideologies, motives and objectives. The only thing common amongst them is perhaps the name `Islam`, but then again, everyone calls themselves a Muslim, don`t they?
It is upto the liberal (Muslim?) civil society`s choice which of them they want to accept, and which one to reject. But they have to make a choice because Islam has been the country`s overriding governance mode from the very outset.
Regards
Zeemax ... not adamkhan
#46 Posted by adamkhan on April 19, 2007 1:53:45 am
Or did chowk-staff decide to change my nic to adamkhan because zeemax was getting quite unpopular :)
#45 Posted by adamkhan on April 19, 2007 1:40:55 am
How the eff am I signed-in as adamkhan? Chowk`s bugs are really gatting bad ... !!!!!
#44 Posted by rf786 on April 19, 2007 12:00:14 am
Re: # 42
Mdm Zeena,
Iam afraid you have me mistaken for someone else or you are simply fighting imaginary demons shaped as windmills. I have only one ID and quite proud to stay with just one.
facetious, sarcastic replies are the refuge of the ill-mannered people and you certainly do not fit that profile, however as a political analyst you are completly zero, swayed by emotions, headline news and popular propaganda. Read a few books before you make outlandish conclusions and avoid the political spectrum till then. Thanks
Arif
Mdm Zeena,
Iam afraid you have me mistaken for someone else or you are simply fighting imaginary demons shaped as windmills. I have only one ID and quite proud to stay with just one.
facetious, sarcastic replies are the refuge of the ill-mannered people and you certainly do not fit that profile, however as a political analyst you are completly zero, swayed by emotions, headline news and popular propaganda. Read a few books before you make outlandish conclusions and avoid the political spectrum till then. Thanks
Arif
#43 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 10:36:57 pm
#25 rafi aamer sahib
Well, thank you very much for your eye opener post. I am sorry I was wrong and you were 100% right.
I am now embarrassed, will you forgive me for my wrong ideology?
Please, do.
Listen, now that we know Pakistan is all Talibanized and all of us Pakistani women are wearing burqa............
What will you do to eradicate Talibanization?
Now, I know the main reason for Pakistani society corruption is Mullahs......Mullahs are the main reason, Pakistan is #1 corrupt country in the world......
So, if we will take off Mullahs, Pakistan will be highly developed and with zero corruption. It will be a heaven...............Oh.God I can`t wait for that heaven............
Take care.
Well, thank you very much for your eye opener post. I am sorry I was wrong and you were 100% right.
I am now embarrassed, will you forgive me for my wrong ideology?
Please, do.
Listen, now that we know Pakistan is all Talibanized and all of us Pakistani women are wearing burqa............
What will you do to eradicate Talibanization?
Now, I know the main reason for Pakistani society corruption is Mullahs......Mullahs are the main reason, Pakistan is #1 corrupt country in the world......
So, if we will take off Mullahs, Pakistan will be highly developed and with zero corruption. It will be a heaven...............Oh.God I can`t wait for that heaven............
Take care.
#42 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 10:31:46 pm
#28 rf786 aka ( a famous interactor)
Why you did not use your famous chowk id?
You are everywhere on chowk...........with that famous id...
Why not here? LOL......
How can I thank you for such an eye opener post? Please, accept my heart felt thanks for your highly intellectual and knowledgeable views.
I can`t thank you enough for correcting my English and for correcting my ofcourse wrong views.
I am thankful to my God(Almighty) to have such an intelligent, well informed and learned soul among us............
Well, now that I know I was in dark..........you showed me light of knowledge......
My mind bulbs are giving me too, much light and voltage.....very bright....
So, now I know Pakistan is totally Talibanized, all Pakistani issues are just b/c of all these mullahs.....
Just eradicate Mullahs and Pakistan will be developed and will be with zero corruption.....Wonderful!
BTW, why are you calling America ( a satan country)? America is my homeland........I love America.
I equally love Pakistan. One is my current homeland and the other is my coutnry of birth.
What`s wrong with , If, noorani or Qazi`s kids got their education from America?
If, Feudals can get their education from London, why these sinner satan Mullahs can not get their education from atleast America?
But, I do wonder why Feudals did not convert all 80% Of Pakistani population ( living in Rural areas) in to Western life styles? Why they let Noorani and Qazi to rule those 80% Pakistanis?
Thank God, I am now a changed person, just b/c of this interactor`s thoughtful views.....
Thank you very, very, very much.
Why you did not use your famous chowk id?
You are everywhere on chowk...........with that famous id...
Why not here? LOL......
How can I thank you for such an eye opener post? Please, accept my heart felt thanks for your highly intellectual and knowledgeable views.
I can`t thank you enough for correcting my English and for correcting my ofcourse wrong views.
I am thankful to my God(Almighty) to have such an intelligent, well informed and learned soul among us............
Well, now that I know I was in dark..........you showed me light of knowledge......
My mind bulbs are giving me too, much light and voltage.....very bright....
So, now I know Pakistan is totally Talibanized, all Pakistani issues are just b/c of all these mullahs.....
Just eradicate Mullahs and Pakistan will be developed and will be with zero corruption.....Wonderful!
BTW, why are you calling America ( a satan country)? America is my homeland........I love America.
I equally love Pakistan. One is my current homeland and the other is my coutnry of birth.
What`s wrong with , If, noorani or Qazi`s kids got their education from America?
If, Feudals can get their education from London, why these sinner satan Mullahs can not get their education from atleast America?
But, I do wonder why Feudals did not convert all 80% Of Pakistani population ( living in Rural areas) in to Western life styles? Why they let Noorani and Qazi to rule those 80% Pakistanis?
Thank God, I am now a changed person, just b/c of this interactor`s thoughtful views.....
Thank you very, very, very much.
#41 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 10:17:50 pm
#36 jayjay jii
Yes, I am ashamed that all of us, Pakistani ladies wear burqa........And we are forced to be Talibanized.........Sad state of affairs.
Yes, your post is well taken. I will spread your message of sympathy and concern to each and every corner of Talibanized Pakistan...............
I will also warn higher authorities what you warned me of?
Thank you very much for such a thoughtful post.............LOL
Yes, I am ashamed that all of us, Pakistani ladies wear burqa........And we are forced to be Talibanized.........Sad state of affairs.
Yes, your post is well taken. I will spread your message of sympathy and concern to each and every corner of Talibanized Pakistan...............
I will also warn higher authorities what you warned me of?
Thank you very much for such a thoughtful post.............LOL
#40 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 10:14:20 pm
#33 Indian
You know what, you are right. Actually, I was scared of Indians that if they will find out that
all of us Pakistani women wear Burqa 100% and Pakistan is Talibanized and all Pakistanis are 100% Talibans..................
Now, that you caught us, Pakistani ladies wearing burqa and being Talibanized......Will you forgive us?
Please, forgive us and do not hate us. We are talibanized..................LOL
You know what, you are right. Actually, I was scared of Indians that if they will find out that
all of us Pakistani women wear Burqa 100% and Pakistan is Talibanized and all Pakistanis are 100% Talibans..................
Now, that you caught us, Pakistani ladies wearing burqa and being Talibanized......Will you forgive us?
Please, forgive us and do not hate us. We are talibanized..................LOL
#39 Posted by harish_hyd on April 18, 2007 10:13:55 pm
#22 by nycoolest
What you think of recent claim of cross breed Italian Indian Rahul Gandhi about Gandhis breaking Pakistan into two? Isn’t it a confession from an important personality of Indian that Indians never accepted Pakistan and always try to sabotage it just as you claim Pakistan do to India.
Yaar cool, was this some kind of a classified information that it had to be broken by Rahul Gandhi? The whole world knows India and Pakistan went to war. and the outcome was that India broke Pakistan into two. If Pakistan were in India`s place, do you think it would have spared India?
If we accept your allegations that Pakistan has run the insurgencies of Kashmir, Khalistan and do bombings in India, then it`s a complete failure to the Indian secret services and paramilitary forces that Pakistan is bringing harm to them since past 60 years and they cant even come up with a solid fact sheet to be produce in International courts build for these kind of disputes.
Forget Indian secret services, a Paki journalist Ghulam Hasnain wrote in detail about Dawood Ibrahim`s whereabouts and activities in Pakistan. And what was the outcome? He was abducted and tortured for 3 days by the Paki intelligence agencies before being released. To this day, Pakistan flatly denies he is there, even though recently, one of his cooks who tried to sneak into India and was arrested at the airport claims he lives in Clifton, Karachi. So there!
If Pakistan is involved, wouldn’t we all want to see their responsible to be in courts for many killings on India? It does need solid proofs though and if they are; should be produced. Blaming Pakistan in internal failures and fuckups is not a constructive solution Harish Bahi :)
Yaar, if that is the case, why is that every western country monitors Pakis closely? Because they know some Pakis are not averse to creating trouble.
It is shameful how many innocents get killed in Punjabi areas by Indra in 1984 and current day Kashmir by Indian forces.
Yaar, the number of Kashmiris/Punjabis killed is nowhere compared to what Pakistan killed in Bangladesh. However flawed the process maybe, at least soldiers accused of violence are arrested and court-martialled. How many Paki soldiers and officers were charged for offenses in East Pakistan?
What you think of recent claim of cross breed Italian Indian Rahul Gandhi about Gandhis breaking Pakistan into two? Isn’t it a confession from an important personality of Indian that Indians never accepted Pakistan and always try to sabotage it just as you claim Pakistan do to India.
Yaar cool, was this some kind of a classified information that it had to be broken by Rahul Gandhi? The whole world knows India and Pakistan went to war. and the outcome was that India broke Pakistan into two. If Pakistan were in India`s place, do you think it would have spared India?
If we accept your allegations that Pakistan has run the insurgencies of Kashmir, Khalistan and do bombings in India, then it`s a complete failure to the Indian secret services and paramilitary forces that Pakistan is bringing harm to them since past 60 years and they cant even come up with a solid fact sheet to be produce in International courts build for these kind of disputes.
Forget Indian secret services, a Paki journalist Ghulam Hasnain wrote in detail about Dawood Ibrahim`s whereabouts and activities in Pakistan. And what was the outcome? He was abducted and tortured for 3 days by the Paki intelligence agencies before being released. To this day, Pakistan flatly denies he is there, even though recently, one of his cooks who tried to sneak into India and was arrested at the airport claims he lives in Clifton, Karachi. So there!
If Pakistan is involved, wouldn’t we all want to see their responsible to be in courts for many killings on India? It does need solid proofs though and if they are; should be produced. Blaming Pakistan in internal failures and fuckups is not a constructive solution Harish Bahi :)
Yaar, if that is the case, why is that every western country monitors Pakis closely? Because they know some Pakis are not averse to creating trouble.
It is shameful how many innocents get killed in Punjabi areas by Indra in 1984 and current day Kashmir by Indian forces.
Yaar, the number of Kashmiris/Punjabis killed is nowhere compared to what Pakistan killed in Bangladesh. However flawed the process maybe, at least soldiers accused of violence are arrested and court-martialled. How many Paki soldiers and officers were charged for offenses in East Pakistan?
#38 Posted by harish_hyd on April 18, 2007 10:13:42 pm
#24 by okhla99
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
Yaar Okhla, the same goes for Pakis, only on a much wider scale. So what`s your point?
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
Yaar Okhla, the same goes for Pakis, only on a much wider scale. So what`s your point?
#37 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 9:55:49 pm
#33 Indian
Yes, I am from Pakistan and I have had been weariong jeans and all the western dresses in Pakistan. I never faced any harrassment. Rather majority of my friends were and are like me......
Pakistan is a free country. If, you wish to wear pants or burqa, wear them. If you don`t do.
I was born and raised in Pakistan..............So,I am not here to get your approval or disapproval.
And also I am not here to prove something.............LOL
These Indians have gone wild in hating Pakistan..........hilarious.......
Yes, I am from Pakistan and I have had been weariong jeans and all the western dresses in Pakistan. I never faced any harrassment. Rather majority of my friends were and are like me......
Pakistan is a free country. If, you wish to wear pants or burqa, wear them. If you don`t do.
I was born and raised in Pakistan..............So,I am not here to get your approval or disapproval.
And also I am not here to prove something.............LOL
These Indians have gone wild in hating Pakistan..........hilarious.......
#36 Posted by JayJay on April 18, 2007 7:48:35 pm
Zeena - I don`t know which world you live in. Please have a read of below article.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=51724
Don`t be an apologist for mullahs as they are indefensible. There is difference in the perspectives of a visitor, as you were, and a person who resides in the Islamic Republic. Ask any working women or a university student how safe and independent they feel out in public in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi. It is a daily journey full of sexual and religious harassment, besides being a trip full of guilt, when they go to work or studies.
I agree with commentators that it will get worse before things could be improved. A civil war is staring us, unless we meekly decide to hand it all over to the Taliban without fighting. Such a scenario will sent a chill in the spine of whole world - a nuclear weapon state with a large (although an indiscipline and corrupt military) being ruled by an irrational fanatic lot.
Only solution is to completely eliminate religion from public life and secular affairs.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=51724
Don`t be an apologist for mullahs as they are indefensible. There is difference in the perspectives of a visitor, as you were, and a person who resides in the Islamic Republic. Ask any working women or a university student how safe and independent they feel out in public in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi. It is a daily journey full of sexual and religious harassment, besides being a trip full of guilt, when they go to work or studies.
I agree with commentators that it will get worse before things could be improved. A civil war is staring us, unless we meekly decide to hand it all over to the Taliban without fighting. Such a scenario will sent a chill in the spine of whole world - a nuclear weapon state with a large (although an indiscipline and corrupt military) being ruled by an irrational fanatic lot.
Only solution is to completely eliminate religion from public life and secular affairs.
#35 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 18, 2007 6:33:39 pm
I think this article is a very fair analysis of `what is wrong with pakistan`.
Just when the civilized world figured out that religion as an institution has outrun its utility and pushing it any further only results in harms for nations, pakistan was born out of this born again romanticism with religion, and that too most literal one the world has seen. I think it is a sheer badluck with us pakistans and this `serious of unfortunate` events triggered and our and forthcoming generations will be there to reap the `rewards`.
I couldn`t agree more with the argument that it was the birth of pakistan which created a safe heaven for all sorts of fundamentalism in the name of Islam. Later developments were only there to add feul to what was inevitably coming our way.
#34 Posted by Teja_Seth on April 18, 2007 6:08:41 pm
Re: # 29
And the French are despised by the English and vice versa. And Americans are despised by Canadians and Mexicans and Germans are despised by everyone in the Europe. Neighbors hating neighbors is pretty much par for the course in the world. Nothing to get excited about.
Oh.. ad Indians and Afghans despising Pakistanis to above list.
And the French are despised by the English and vice versa. And Americans are despised by Canadians and Mexicans and Germans are despised by everyone in the Europe. Neighbors hating neighbors is pretty much par for the course in the world. Nothing to get excited about.
Oh.. ad Indians and Afghans despising Pakistanis to above list.
#33 Posted by Indian on April 18, 2007 10:44:36 am
Re: # 20
Zeenajee,
[I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits....Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed]
Really????
Below one from your compatriot
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag20.htm
Zeenajee,
[I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits....Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed]
Really????
Below one from your compatriot
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag20.htm
#32 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 18, 2007 10:27:32 am
Re: # 14
Mr. Gill,
Thanks for your feedback. The reason I did not focus much on Jamia Hafsa incident is that, first, a lot has been said and written about it already and, second, this is by no means a unique incident. The only thing unique about it is that it happened in Islamabad. Other parts of the country like NWFP and tribal belt are experiencing this phenemenon on regular basis.
There is a lot of blame to go all around for the situation. A major part of the problem are the elements within the so-called ``sensitive`` agencies in Pakistan. They were given the task to handle Mujahideen during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan but instead of just handling, they got married to the Jihadi ideology and now are a major scare for anyone who wants to fix things.
Regards,
Rafi
Mr. Gill,
Thanks for your feedback. The reason I did not focus much on Jamia Hafsa incident is that, first, a lot has been said and written about it already and, second, this is by no means a unique incident. The only thing unique about it is that it happened in Islamabad. Other parts of the country like NWFP and tribal belt are experiencing this phenemenon on regular basis.
There is a lot of blame to go all around for the situation. A major part of the problem are the elements within the so-called ``sensitive`` agencies in Pakistan. They were given the task to handle Mujahideen during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan but instead of just handling, they got married to the Jihadi ideology and now are a major scare for anyone who wants to fix things.
Regards,
Rafi
#31 Posted by samar1982 on April 18, 2007 9:44:47 am
Re: # 23. okhla99
You are posing to be too innocent to believe a simpleton like Rahul Gandhi. Now, some over-smart Chammach might have reminded him about the greatness of his grandmother and he started blowing it out foolishly in the hope of gaining some more votes or at least a few extra clappings, in the process affording Pakis another pretext to malign India for their troubles.
Second para of your post reflects again the same mindset narrated succinctly in the article as well as in my posts. As I have also said it is very unfortunate that this mindset is impossible to change now. The poison has penetrated deep into the nerve centers of all Pakis. Sadly, that will implode in the very near future and it will be a challenge for India to ward off the spillover.
Samar
You are posing to be too innocent to believe a simpleton like Rahul Gandhi. Now, some over-smart Chammach might have reminded him about the greatness of his grandmother and he started blowing it out foolishly in the hope of gaining some more votes or at least a few extra clappings, in the process affording Pakis another pretext to malign India for their troubles.
Second para of your post reflects again the same mindset narrated succinctly in the article as well as in my posts. As I have also said it is very unfortunate that this mindset is impossible to change now. The poison has penetrated deep into the nerve centers of all Pakis. Sadly, that will implode in the very near future and it will be a challenge for India to ward off the spillover.
Samar
#30 Posted by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 9:35:12 am
Re: # 21
<<< Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World. >>>
Dear Majumdar Sahib,
The world today is diffferent from 1980s and your notions are completely outdated. Kindly visit some foreign policy websites pertaining to US foreign policy, Georgetown, thinktanks, state department etc. Perhaps you are not aware of the War on Terror, the changing strategics, the oil scenario. You also appear to have completely ignored the fact that the bipolar world order of the 80s has yielded to the unipolar world of today. Hence the concepts from the 80s cannot be applied to situations today. Remain firmly in 2007 aand , if possible, look forward to 2010. Going back to the 1980s will not help at all.
Kindly reconsider your position in view of the greatly altered scenario. Regards.
<<< Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World. >>>
Dear Majumdar Sahib,
The world today is diffferent from 1980s and your notions are completely outdated. Kindly visit some foreign policy websites pertaining to US foreign policy, Georgetown, thinktanks, state department etc. Perhaps you are not aware of the War on Terror, the changing strategics, the oil scenario. You also appear to have completely ignored the fact that the bipolar world order of the 80s has yielded to the unipolar world of today. Hence the concepts from the 80s cannot be applied to situations today. Remain firmly in 2007 aand , if possible, look forward to 2010. Going back to the 1980s will not help at all.
Kindly reconsider your position in view of the greatly altered scenario. Regards.
#29 Posted by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 9:20:19 am
#27 Arjun
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
Or continue to keep your head buried in the sand....
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
Or continue to keep your head buried in the sand....
#28 Posted by rf786 on April 18, 2007 8:13:32 am
Re: # 20
Mdm Zeena,
Some factual errors posted by you:
{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off.}
Taliban only came into being post USSR exit (1988) from Afghanistan and they were created by the ISI to impose a Pak friendly Afghan Govt. Most of these Talibs had nothing to do with the Afghan jihad fought against the Ruskies.
{Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West}
Qazi Husssein, Noorani (Late) both had their boys sent abroad (USA) for education. Many other Mullah children are studying in western universities and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that idea, I wonder why you think that is bad given your chosen place of residence is also the land of satan (USA).
{And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib}
Bibi, gora ko tho gay huwe bhoth zamana hogia, please come out of this time warp, why blame everything on the poor gora? Somethings are peculiar to each region, Pakistan is blessed with five rivers and the famous Indus river thus the dominance of agrarian societies. To say these were the creation of gora is giving the gora too much credit and exposes a flawed view of history and geography.
{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off........... }
Incorrect, please refer to the above correction.
{Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............}
Correct word is Later, not Latter.
Al Qaeda objective was OIL??????? Now that is a new one for all, please do elaborate where do we have oil in that godforsaken place called Afghanistan. And the Pak army (ISI) did not need any help from anyone in creating the Taliban, except for Saudi funding and baptization (bastardization).
Battle is for the hearts and minds of Pakistani people, for thirty years they have been fed lies and false stories of impending Islamic glory, fall of the Kaafirs and rise of the Islamic brotherhood. The state of Pakistan has been actively pursueing a policy of promoting this ideology that served their political interest but now has to reconsider given the changed political situation. Problem here lies as the writer has tried to explain in state policies that can lead to increased talibanization and to curb such trends state has to sponsor liberal policies that discourage overt religious values, promotes a fair and equitable society for all of its citizens irrespective of their religious or ethnic backgrounds. Thus the criticism of Ordinance resolution of Liaqat Ali Khan that basically was the first step backward in our struggle for a FREE state.
Mdm Zeena,
Some factual errors posted by you:
{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off.}
Taliban only came into being post USSR exit (1988) from Afghanistan and they were created by the ISI to impose a Pak friendly Afghan Govt. Most of these Talibs had nothing to do with the Afghan jihad fought against the Ruskies.
{Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West}
Qazi Husssein, Noorani (Late) both had their boys sent abroad (USA) for education. Many other Mullah children are studying in western universities and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that idea, I wonder why you think that is bad given your chosen place of residence is also the land of satan (USA).
{And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib}
Bibi, gora ko tho gay huwe bhoth zamana hogia, please come out of this time warp, why blame everything on the poor gora? Somethings are peculiar to each region, Pakistan is blessed with five rivers and the famous Indus river thus the dominance of agrarian societies. To say these were the creation of gora is giving the gora too much credit and exposes a flawed view of history and geography.
{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off........... }
Incorrect, please refer to the above correction.
{Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............}
Correct word is Later, not Latter.
Al Qaeda objective was OIL??????? Now that is a new one for all, please do elaborate where do we have oil in that godforsaken place called Afghanistan. And the Pak army (ISI) did not need any help from anyone in creating the Taliban, except for Saudi funding and baptization (bastardization).
Battle is for the hearts and minds of Pakistani people, for thirty years they have been fed lies and false stories of impending Islamic glory, fall of the Kaafirs and rise of the Islamic brotherhood. The state of Pakistan has been actively pursueing a policy of promoting this ideology that served their political interest but now has to reconsider given the changed political situation. Problem here lies as the writer has tried to explain in state policies that can lead to increased talibanization and to curb such trends state has to sponsor liberal policies that discourage overt religious values, promotes a fair and equitable society for all of its citizens irrespective of their religious or ethnic backgrounds. Thus the criticism of Ordinance resolution of Liaqat Ali Khan that basically was the first step backward in our struggle for a FREE state.
#27 Posted by arjun2 on April 18, 2007 8:06:02 am
#22 by nycoolest on April 18, 2007 7:39am PT
Indians aren`t looking for a constructive discussion to convince pakis...you can`t convince a pig that mud is icky...islamic jihad and pakiland are like mud and a pig..
about proving terrorism, pray tell, why are the Lashkar-e-Toiba banned by the US...which forced the land of the pure to ban them...didn`t you tell us they were indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters..
Everytime you walk through a western airport, you pakis realize that the world doesn`t buy your line and treats you as potential terrorists or terrorist supporters...which is why pakis were first in line to be fingerprinted...
Indians aren`t looking for a constructive discussion to convince pakis...you can`t convince a pig that mud is icky...islamic jihad and pakiland are like mud and a pig..
about proving terrorism, pray tell, why are the Lashkar-e-Toiba banned by the US...which forced the land of the pure to ban them...didn`t you tell us they were indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters..
Everytime you walk through a western airport, you pakis realize that the world doesn`t buy your line and treats you as potential terrorists or terrorist supporters...which is why pakis were first in line to be fingerprinted...
#26 Posted by arjun2 on April 18, 2007 8:02:43 am
#24 by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 7:55am PT
Oh really...You`ve been accused, with good reason, of supporting terrorists by afghanistan, india and iran...
Oh really...You`ve been accused, with good reason, of supporting terrorists by afghanistan, india and iran...
#25 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 18, 2007 7:56:10 am
Re: # 20
Zeena,
You wrote a long one and I can’t possibly address all your points right now but you are more than welcome to continue this discussion with me later. Let me give you my thoughts on few of your points
You wrote: “Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....”
You are right, it is hilarious. But why are you mentioning that? Did I say that? There is a difference between getting rid of religion and getting religion out of law-making process.
You wrote: “It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam.”
I read the article again to see where did I demonize Islam but couldn’t find anything. Please point out which portion of the article you are talking about.
You wrote:”If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL”
It was a group of few hundreds who started the process of Talibanization in Afghanistan. Having said that, I think you missed the point I tried to make in the beginning of the article. I don’t think that kind of Talibanization is likely in Pakistan. A different flavor, a legislative Talibanization, where the power to dictate the legislation lies outside the parliament is what Pakistan is suffering from. Let’s say someone proposes a law in national assembly to ban polygamy. What do you think would be the biggest objection raised against such a proposal? If the biggest objection would NOT be that the proposed law is against Islam, the entire premise of my article is wrong.
To address another point you made repeatedly in your post, please read the clause 2 of a declaration on a Pakistan Passport application that every Muslim has to sign to get a passport. Following is the clause.
“I do not recognize any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim”
The first part of that clause is to rule Ahmedies out of getting a “Muslim” passport and the later, the bit about “reformer``, is to stop Lahories (an offshoot of Ahmedies) to be qualified as Muslims. One can argue a lot about the utility of this clause but for the sake of argument, let’s say it’s fine. Here comes the third clause following the above one.
“I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be an impostor nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslims.”
There is no need for the third clause in the presence of the second. The second clause is self sufficient for the purpose. The only reason for the third clause is to deliberately insult Ahmedies by calling their prophet an impostor. Mind you, we are talking about Pakistan where the law books prescribe death penalty to anyone insulting the Muslim prophet. Some time back, Musharraf made a lot of fuss to get this declaration out by removing the religion column from the passport. He made a lot of statements in the media and they all made sense. What happened? Was he successful getting the column and this declaration out? The answer is, no. And you tell me that there is no influence of Mullahs in Pakistan?
Zeena,
You wrote a long one and I can’t possibly address all your points right now but you are more than welcome to continue this discussion with me later. Let me give you my thoughts on few of your points
You wrote: “Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....”
You are right, it is hilarious. But why are you mentioning that? Did I say that? There is a difference between getting rid of religion and getting religion out of law-making process.
You wrote: “It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam.”
I read the article again to see where did I demonize Islam but couldn’t find anything. Please point out which portion of the article you are talking about.
You wrote:”If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL”
It was a group of few hundreds who started the process of Talibanization in Afghanistan. Having said that, I think you missed the point I tried to make in the beginning of the article. I don’t think that kind of Talibanization is likely in Pakistan. A different flavor, a legislative Talibanization, where the power to dictate the legislation lies outside the parliament is what Pakistan is suffering from. Let’s say someone proposes a law in national assembly to ban polygamy. What do you think would be the biggest objection raised against such a proposal? If the biggest objection would NOT be that the proposed law is against Islam, the entire premise of my article is wrong.
To address another point you made repeatedly in your post, please read the clause 2 of a declaration on a Pakistan Passport application that every Muslim has to sign to get a passport. Following is the clause.
“I do not recognize any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim”
The first part of that clause is to rule Ahmedies out of getting a “Muslim” passport and the later, the bit about “reformer``, is to stop Lahories (an offshoot of Ahmedies) to be qualified as Muslims. One can argue a lot about the utility of this clause but for the sake of argument, let’s say it’s fine. Here comes the third clause following the above one.
“I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be an impostor nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslims.”
There is no need for the third clause in the presence of the second. The second clause is self sufficient for the purpose. The only reason for the third clause is to deliberately insult Ahmedies by calling their prophet an impostor. Mind you, we are talking about Pakistan where the law books prescribe death penalty to anyone insulting the Muslim prophet. Some time back, Musharraf made a lot of fuss to get this declaration out by removing the religion column from the passport. He made a lot of statements in the media and they all made sense. What happened? Was he successful getting the column and this declaration out? The answer is, no. And you tell me that there is no influence of Mullahs in Pakistan?
#24 Posted by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 7:55:48 am
Re: # 18
Harish Bhai,
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
With this ground reality kindly read my mail again.
Harish Bhai,
Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.
With this ground reality kindly read my mail again.
#23 Posted by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 7:52:52 am
Re: # 19
Now that is surely a load of crap.
If India wants a stable and strong Pakistan then why would Gandhi admit Indian complicity in breaking up Pakistan? Why would India sneak up like thieves and occupy territory in Siachen?
India SHOULD want a stable and prosperous Pakistan (and all its other neighbours). However most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring nations.
Analyse the above slowly before coming up with a knee-jerk response.
Now that is surely a load of crap.
If India wants a stable and strong Pakistan then why would Gandhi admit Indian complicity in breaking up Pakistan? Why would India sneak up like thieves and occupy territory in Siachen?
India SHOULD want a stable and prosperous Pakistan (and all its other neighbours). However most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring nations.
Analyse the above slowly before coming up with a knee-jerk response.
#22 Posted by nycoolest on April 18, 2007 7:39:25 am
Re: # 18
What you think of recent claim of cross breed Italian Indian Rahul Gandhi about Gandhis breaking Pakistan into two? Isn’t it a confession from an important personality of Indian that Indians never accepted Pakistan and always try to sabotage it just as you claim Pakistan do to India.
Indians support of 1971 insurgency of East Pakistan is also a well documented fact.
If we accept your allegations that Pakistan has run the insurgencies of Kashmir, Khalistan and do bombings in India, then it`s a complete failure to the Indian secret services and paramilitary forces that Pakistan is bringing harm to them since past 60 years and they cant even come up with a solid fact sheet to be produce in International courts build for these kind of disputes. I suggest it is time to ask question to your own government that what are the measures they have taken to take the people to international courts who been plotting against Indians as they always blame. If Pakistan is involved, wouldn’t we all want to see their responsible to be in courts for many killings on India? It does need solid proofs though and if they are; should be produced. Blaming Pakistan in internal failures and fuckups is not a constructive solution Harish Bahi :) .
I can`t say or claiming here that Pakistan has a clean record, all I am trying to deliver is Indians are no angel either. It is shameful how many innocents get killed in Punjabi areas by Indra in 1984 and current day Kashmir by Indian forces.
What you think of recent claim of cross breed Italian Indian Rahul Gandhi about Gandhis breaking Pakistan into two? Isn’t it a confession from an important personality of Indian that Indians never accepted Pakistan and always try to sabotage it just as you claim Pakistan do to India.
Indians support of 1971 insurgency of East Pakistan is also a well documented fact.
If we accept your allegations that Pakistan has run the insurgencies of Kashmir, Khalistan and do bombings in India, then it`s a complete failure to the Indian secret services and paramilitary forces that Pakistan is bringing harm to them since past 60 years and they cant even come up with a solid fact sheet to be produce in International courts build for these kind of disputes. I suggest it is time to ask question to your own government that what are the measures they have taken to take the people to international courts who been plotting against Indians as they always blame. If Pakistan is involved, wouldn’t we all want to see their responsible to be in courts for many killings on India? It does need solid proofs though and if they are; should be produced. Blaming Pakistan in internal failures and fuckups is not a constructive solution Harish Bahi :) .
I can`t say or claiming here that Pakistan has a clean record, all I am trying to deliver is Indians are no angel either. It is shameful how many innocents get killed in Punjabi areas by Indra in 1984 and current day Kashmir by Indian forces.
#21 Posted by majumdar on April 18, 2007 2:56:28 am
Okhla sahib,
(Therefore, the next step would be balkanization of the region. Whether Kurdistan becomes independent first or Balochistan is what remains to be seen. The order is immaterial. What matters is that there is an order in the chaos. The US is slowly and surely inching towards its long term goals. Increasing fundamentalism in Pakistan would only provide a basis(excuse) to attack Pakistan a few months after Musharraf is gone. )
Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World.
This is ridiculous. USA does not care two hoots about Pakistan and has no intention to attack it. Too many people, a few nukes and no (much at least) oil. It is simply not worth the bother. Probably dont care much more about India either except of course that it has too many more people, the seat of its company`s backoffices and a much needed source for IT manpower.
Rest assured. No one, least of all USA, is interested in attacking Pakistan. If anything, just bother about Pakistan`s inability to provide its people with decent governance and human rights.
Regards
(Therefore, the next step would be balkanization of the region. Whether Kurdistan becomes independent first or Balochistan is what remains to be seen. The order is immaterial. What matters is that there is an order in the chaos. The US is slowly and surely inching towards its long term goals. Increasing fundamentalism in Pakistan would only provide a basis(excuse) to attack Pakistan a few months after Musharraf is gone. )
Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World.
This is ridiculous. USA does not care two hoots about Pakistan and has no intention to attack it. Too many people, a few nukes and no (much at least) oil. It is simply not worth the bother. Probably dont care much more about India either except of course that it has too many more people, the seat of its company`s backoffices and a much needed source for IT manpower.
Rest assured. No one, least of all USA, is interested in attacking Pakistan. If anything, just bother about Pakistan`s inability to provide its people with decent governance and human rights.
Regards
#20 Posted by Zeena on April 18, 2007 12:59:07 am
I find this article as dumb as anything could be. This article reminds me of some mumbo jumbo idiocy with no sense, repeating every line in a same circle over and over again, very dull perspective with no insight.Not even a good read. Same thing over and over again, Islam this , Islam that, Taliban this.....Pakistanis are Talibanized.....LOL.
Pakistan is Talibanized and that is why Pakistan is #1 in corruption....LOL
All Pakistani problems are just b/c of religion. Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....
Mullahs have had been only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?
Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?
They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.
They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?
And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............
Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....
Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No
There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......
Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......
And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................
It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........
Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............
So, just think about all this .......................
Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is using someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........
And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......
I am proud to be Muslim and Pakistani. There is nothing wrong to be a Muslim as long as you do not impose your extremist views on others.
As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...
In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....
To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.
I believe religion in Pakistan is continually used and abused for political advantage.Beyond that it was misused as justification to call All Pakistanis Talibanized.
All humans have the ability to think for themselves yet people are being led to believe that all Pakistanis are Talibanized and they are radical and violent. People are being told that only Muslims are terrorists. If you believe such notions it will affect your view on politics, push your interests in the direction of national security, and ultimately effect how you live your daily lives.............just think about it.
It is also clear to me that there is some intolerant groups of people who are energetically promoting Islamophobic stance.How about not exploiting economically unstable poor 80% of Pakistanis who live in rural areas for our own benefits like Some super powers of this world always do with third world countries.
I believe economics is the main root cause of all the un stability in Pakistan. Stable economies and low poverty cuts off any radicalism off the edge and that`s the biggest fact.
I will refuse this article`s STANCE b/c this article is either by a naive mind or an extremist mind set?
The only solution to the problems of Pakistan is through education and educated mind sets.
By that what I mean is, if, this article is intolerant of Islam and Muslims, then this article is exactly as intolerant as the Mullahs are. And that`s the exact reason I view this article as a stance in fact legitimate talibanized Jihad against average Pakistani Muslims who have got nothing to do with Talibanization..........
I am not condemning the views of this writer here, this writer has every right to promote any view he sees fit to his own mind set. He has his own freedom of expression, only , if he would have used it with more responsibility. What I see in this whole article is a propaganda against Pakistan and Pakistani Muslims while NOT focusing on real issues which are the main reason Pakistan is still miserable.......Just think about it. I still would like to know why this article was written? It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam and he is probably a part of an intolerant group that majority of us around the here see as the cause behind the tension between Pakistani Muslims and Indians............Just think about it....
Such intolerant groups on chowk are prolly more persuasive.............
The only way to guard yourselves from these intolerant groups is to indiscriminately stand firm against intolerance in all forms and from all sides.............
I guess all of you there know poverty and fanaticism goes hand in hand. Humiliation which is going on in 80% of Pakistani population ( in rural areas), these people feel humiliated with low self esteem and they are easy preys for those that seek followers in any form of radicalism ( in the form of feudalism/mullah ism/liberal extremism)..............What I observed myself is that majority Pakistanis have a huge``victim mentality``, they strongly believe they are being oppressed, humiliated and victims by feudals/governance and beaurocrates and if, they won`t be treated right, they are much more willing to commit atrocities..............Why? Just think about it.
Is this Talibanization that is leading Pakistan towards destruction? NO.....Not even a single Pakistani blamed Mullahs for their zillions of problems......Just think about it.
I believe we need to realize the economic deprivation is the main issue for the main stream poor and oppressed Pakistanis................Not the religion.
I also think that this article has underestimated the deep rooted effects of diplomacy and political rhetorics.Also I believe there is no such thing as bad religion, just bad people......................
``The Islamic religion itself is the source of the hate towards the East. And we ``hate`` the Muslims because they oppress women and others and are against our way of life and are trying to destroy it.``
The vast Majority of Muslims are quiet and hardworking people. This article has done a great job of humiliating Pakistani Muslims based on lies, supporting democracy only when it suits you kind of attitude, propping up very few inactive Mullahs ways as to label them to all Pakistan`s ways........like turning a blind eye to the real problems of Majority poor and oppressed pakistanis( who live in rural areas). Its like all people bad or all people good........LOL( unbelievable!)
Who are the real culprits for causing all the problems in Pakistan? Just think about it.
Today`s world problems are not caused by Islam or Talibans, they are caused by OIL and it`s control and dominance between two sets of groups.........
And same thing is happening in Pakistan, there is no thing as Talibanization or Mullah ism........the actual reason is poverty.......poor becoming more poor and rich becoming richer...................tsk, tsk, tsk.....
And we`re still pretending that actual cause is Talibanization.................just immature thoughts....
No, religions do not fail us, we( the humans) fail our religions``. Bad people are using religion ( which is the most beautiful in human history, to teach us humanity) or sometimes different ideologies to mobilize people against their self made enemies.......And this is exactly what this article is all about.......Just think about it.
If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL
Anyone who takes a closer look at the situation in Pakistan can plainly see that political differences and money interests are the main cause of the conflict and the religion is merely the rallying cry...........just think about it. People like Osama Bin Laden would not even be known today had Goras not supported what would become Al-Qaida to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Talibans would not even existed today in Afghanistan had Goras not supported and funded them to fight against USSR as their own soldiers.....Just think about it.
There is no such thing as Talibanization of Pakistan........and Majority Pakistanis can hardly even comprehend this concept,as this idea exists only in few bigoted minds...........who just wish to create havoc....and who are not sincere with the solution of main Pakistani problems and who are giving a blind eye to poverty and miseries for Majority of Pakistanis by labeling everything as Talibanization............Just think about it. This idea is borrowed by western media only........
Where as the fact is majority poor Pakistanis are left without even a hope of a future life or any opportunity........just think about it.
What if religion did not exist would Pakistan be the developed country? No , absolutely NOT. Would people not been at war? Would there be no issues in Pakistan? Would there be scamming faith healers...........and much much more would`s be.............
Suppose, if mullahs would have been dead, would 80% poor Pakistani people( living in rural areas) be comfortably living with all their needs being met decently.......................and would they be progressed?
Sometimes, religion can cause little bit of friction among certain groups of people, but, the motivations of finance and power are very clearly visible under the surface. Mullahs are merely tools which are being misused........................just think about it.
Any average Pakistani can show you the mirror like above..............just think about
Pakistan is Talibanized and that is why Pakistan is #1 in corruption....LOL
All Pakistani problems are just b/c of religion. Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....
Mullahs have had been only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?
Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?
They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.
They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?
And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............
Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....
Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No
There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......
Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......
And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................
It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........
Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............
So, just think about all this .......................
Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is using someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........
And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......
I am proud to be Muslim and Pakistani. There is nothing wrong to be a Muslim as long as you do not impose your extremist views on others.
As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...
In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....
To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.
I believe religion in Pakistan is continually used and abused for political advantage.Beyond that it was misused as justification to call All Pakistanis Talibanized.
All humans have the ability to think for themselves yet people are being led to believe that all Pakistanis are Talibanized and they are radical and violent. People are being told that only Muslims are terrorists. If you believe such notions it will affect your view on politics, push your interests in the direction of national security, and ultimately effect how you live your daily lives.............just think about it.
It is also clear to me that there is some intolerant groups of people who are energetically promoting Islamophobic stance.How about not exploiting economically unstable poor 80% of Pakistanis who live in rural areas for our own benefits like Some super powers of this world always do with third world countries.
I believe economics is the main root cause of all the un stability in Pakistan. Stable economies and low poverty cuts off any radicalism off the edge and that`s the biggest fact.
I will refuse this article`s STANCE b/c this article is either by a naive mind or an extremist mind set?
The only solution to the problems of Pakistan is through education and educated mind sets.
By that what I mean is, if, this article is intolerant of Islam and Muslims, then this article is exactly as intolerant as the Mullahs are. And that`s the exact reason I view this article as a stance in fact legitimate talibanized Jihad against average Pakistani Muslims who have got nothing to do with Talibanization..........
I am not condemning the views of this writer here, this writer has every right to promote any view he sees fit to his own mind set. He has his own freedom of expression, only , if he would have used it with more responsibility. What I see in this whole article is a propaganda against Pakistan and Pakistani Muslims while NOT focusing on real issues which are the main reason Pakistan is still miserable.......Just think about it. I still would like to know why this article was written? It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam and he is probably a part of an intolerant group that majority of us around the here see as the cause behind the tension between Pakistani Muslims and Indians............Just think about it....
Such intolerant groups on chowk are prolly more persuasive.............
The only way to guard yourselves from these intolerant groups is to indiscriminately stand firm against intolerance in all forms and from all sides.............
I guess all of you there know poverty and fanaticism goes hand in hand. Humiliation which is going on in 80% of Pakistani population ( in rural areas), these people feel humiliated with low self esteem and they are easy preys for those that seek followers in any form of radicalism ( in the form of feudalism/mullah ism/liberal extremism)..............What I observed myself is that majority Pakistanis have a huge``victim mentality``, they strongly believe they are being oppressed, humiliated and victims by feudals/governance and beaurocrates and if, they won`t be treated right, they are much more willing to commit atrocities..............Why? Just think about it.
Is this Talibanization that is leading Pakistan towards destruction? NO.....Not even a single Pakistani blamed Mullahs for their zillions of problems......Just think about it.
I believe we need to realize the economic deprivation is the main issue for the main stream poor and oppressed Pakistanis................Not the religion.
I also think that this article has underestimated the deep rooted effects of diplomacy and political rhetorics.Also I believe there is no such thing as bad religion, just bad people......................
``The Islamic religion itself is the source of the hate towards the East. And we ``hate`` the Muslims because they oppress women and others and are against our way of life and are trying to destroy it.``
The vast Majority of Muslims are quiet and hardworking people. This article has done a great job of humiliating Pakistani Muslims based on lies, supporting democracy only when it suits you kind of attitude, propping up very few inactive Mullahs ways as to label them to all Pakistan`s ways........like turning a blind eye to the real problems of Majority poor and oppressed pakistanis( who live in rural areas). Its like all people bad or all people good........LOL( unbelievable!)
Who are the real culprits for causing all the problems in Pakistan? Just think about it.
Today`s world problems are not caused by Islam or Talibans, they are caused by OIL and it`s control and dominance between two sets of groups.........
And same thing is happening in Pakistan, there is no thing as Talibanization or Mullah ism........the actual reason is poverty.......poor becoming more poor and rich becoming richer...................tsk, tsk, tsk.....
And we`re still pretending that actual cause is Talibanization.................just immature thoughts....
No, religions do not fail us, we( the humans) fail our religions``. Bad people are using religion ( which is the most beautiful in human history, to teach us humanity) or sometimes different ideologies to mobilize people against their self made enemies.......And this is exactly what this article is all about.......Just think about it.
If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL
Anyone who takes a closer look at the situation in Pakistan can plainly see that political differences and money interests are the main cause of the conflict and the religion is merely the rallying cry...........just think about it. People like Osama Bin Laden would not even be known today had Goras not supported what would become Al-Qaida to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Talibans would not even existed today in Afghanistan had Goras not supported and funded them to fight against USSR as their own soldiers.....Just think about it.
There is no such thing as Talibanization of Pakistan........and Majority Pakistanis can hardly even comprehend this concept,as this idea exists only in few bigoted minds...........who just wish to create havoc....and who are not sincere with the solution of main Pakistani problems and who are giving a blind eye to poverty and miseries for Majority of Pakistanis by labeling everything as Talibanization............Just think about it. This idea is borrowed by western media only........
Where as the fact is majority poor Pakistanis are left without even a hope of a future life or any opportunity........just think about it.
What if religion did not exist would Pakistan be the developed country? No , absolutely NOT. Would people not been at war? Would there be no issues in Pakistan? Would there be scamming faith healers...........and much much more would`s be.............
Suppose, if mullahs would have been dead, would 80% poor Pakistani people( living in rural areas) be comfortably living with all their needs being met decently.......................and would they be progressed?
Sometimes, religion can cause little bit of friction among certain groups of people, but, the motivations of finance and power are very clearly visible under the surface. Mullahs are merely tools which are being misused........................just think about it.
Any average Pakistani can show you the mirror like above..............just think about
#19 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 11:13:07 pm
Re: # 17, okhla99,
I don`t agree with this. India is (and had always been) concerned about what is going on inside Pak and does what it thinks fit to derail the process of Paki disintegration till that does not affect it`s own security. The opinion in India is that only democracy, secularism and freedom of thought can save Pak. But for last 60 years what has happened in Pak is slow and continuous drifting away from these ideals and consequent distancing itself from India. Seeds of this mess were sown at the time of partition itself as is the theme of this article. These happenings were never been of India`s making, so what can India do other than to show anger, rant, scold, ridicule and sometimes, gloat. It finds itself helpless.
I`m afraid, there is no way out for Pak now. They are now in the complete grip of USA and the noose is tightening. Even if they appear to come out of USA camp, as looks likely at present, they can not free themselves from the whole plot. There is Taliban to tackle with and subsequent civil-war like situation to face.
Samar
I don`t agree with this. India is (and had always been) concerned about what is going on inside Pak and does what it thinks fit to derail the process of Paki disintegration till that does not affect it`s own security. The opinion in India is that only democracy, secularism and freedom of thought can save Pak. But for last 60 years what has happened in Pak is slow and continuous drifting away from these ideals and consequent distancing itself from India. Seeds of this mess were sown at the time of partition itself as is the theme of this article. These happenings were never been of India`s making, so what can India do other than to show anger, rant, scold, ridicule and sometimes, gloat. It finds itself helpless.
I`m afraid, there is no way out for Pak now. They are now in the complete grip of USA and the noose is tightening. Even if they appear to come out of USA camp, as looks likely at present, they can not free themselves from the whole plot. There is Taliban to tackle with and subsequent civil-war like situation to face.
Samar
#18 Posted by harish_hyd on April 17, 2007 10:08:49 pm
#17 by okhla99
India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.
India would give a rat`s ass to Pakistan and its fortunes/misfortunes if it stopped its policy of fanning trouble inside India. The Khalistan and Kashmir insurgencies, the Kargil incursions, and the periodic terrorist attacks inside India all point to Pakistan`s mal-intent. Cut that out and Indians wouldn`t care what Pakistan is up to.
India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.
India would give a rat`s ass to Pakistan and its fortunes/misfortunes if it stopped its policy of fanning trouble inside India. The Khalistan and Kashmir insurgencies, the Kargil incursions, and the periodic terrorist attacks inside India all point to Pakistan`s mal-intent. Cut that out and Indians wouldn`t care what Pakistan is up to.
#17 Posted by okhla99 on April 17, 2007 8:00:18 pm
#16
Well said. Trouble for Pakistan means trouble for India. To this extent I agree with you.
But how many Indians realise this. India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.
Well said. Trouble for Pakistan means trouble for India. To this extent I agree with you.
But how many Indians realise this. India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.
#16 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 7:05:48 pm
Re: # 15, okhla99,
Very correct. Possibilities for India are not too bright either. As soon as Pak drifts away from USA and consequently disintegrates India will be in a long term trouble. So a fairly strong and progressive Pak is India`s ticket to prosperity and it should fight even USA for Pak. But who will induce Pak to see reason and stop nonsense with India.
Samar
Very correct. Possibilities for India are not too bright either. As soon as Pak drifts away from USA and consequently disintegrates India will be in a long term trouble. So a fairly strong and progressive Pak is India`s ticket to prosperity and it should fight even USA for Pak. But who will induce Pak to see reason and stop nonsense with India.
Samar
#15 Posted by okhla99 on April 17, 2007 6:44:28 pm
Percieved (and to some extent, actual) Talibanization of islamic countries in this region is all part of a grand strategy of the USA to control the oil resources of the region. Countries would be targetted one by one.
Each milestone is but one step forward in the eminently understandable long term US plan for the region -- Control over the oil resources. And this can, in the opinion of the think tank, be easily achieved by balkanisation of the Iran-Iraq-Pakistan region. Small states with oil resources can be ``managed`` effectively (the Kuwait model). Other small & medium states without any significant oil resources can surely be relied upon to maintain a hostile environment with constant mini wars amongst themselves which threaten to spill over into and engulf the ``oil holders`` which would be ``duly protected`` by the US and its stooges Pakistan(definitely) , India(may be). For a price.
Therefore, the next step would be balkanization of the region. Whether Kurdistan becomes independent first or Balochistan is what remains to be seen. The order is immaterial. What matters is that there is an order in the chaos. The US is slowly and surely inching towards its long term goals. Increasing fundamentalism in Pakistan would only provide a basis(excuse) to attack Pakistan a few months after Musharraf is gone. All the better if the fundamentalists are seen to have a hand in Mushy`s exit.
The writing on the wall is slowly becoming clearer as the drama unfolds.
#14 Posted by freethinker on April 17, 2007 5:09:24 pm
Mr. Aamer’s article is timely and thought provoking although he hasn’t made a very strong case against the recent high-handedness of the Lal Masjid’s maulanas. I am not really very knowledgeable about the Pakistani politics but if what the writer has written in the following is true, it shows the spinelessness of the law makers in Pakistan.
“After such proclamation, the role of the chosen representatives of people was doomed to become irrelevant and so it did. This was quite evident last year when the government of Pakistan tried to pass Women Protection Bill thru the parliament. Overwhelming part of the debate in parliament and in the media that preceded the passage of the bill revolved not around whether the bill actually protected the women or not but whether it was consistent with Islam or not. The government, eventually, had to go to a select committee of Ulema, who were not elected by the people of Pakistan, to get the certificate of compliance before passing the bill.”
By giving a free hand to the maulanas, the government invited the lawlessness of these Khudai Faujdars recently in Islamabad. If it is allowed to continue longer, it will be a clear-cut invitation to civil war. When religion is introduced in statecraft, there will inevitably be chaos and confusion.
Thanks Aamer for contributing your valuable piece.
Mohammad Gill
“After such proclamation, the role of the chosen representatives of people was doomed to become irrelevant and so it did. This was quite evident last year when the government of Pakistan tried to pass Women Protection Bill thru the parliament. Overwhelming part of the debate in parliament and in the media that preceded the passage of the bill revolved not around whether the bill actually protected the women or not but whether it was consistent with Islam or not. The government, eventually, had to go to a select committee of Ulema, who were not elected by the people of Pakistan, to get the certificate of compliance before passing the bill.”
By giving a free hand to the maulanas, the government invited the lawlessness of these Khudai Faujdars recently in Islamabad. If it is allowed to continue longer, it will be a clear-cut invitation to civil war. When religion is introduced in statecraft, there will inevitably be chaos and confusion.
Thanks Aamer for contributing your valuable piece.
Mohammad Gill
#13 Posted by rf786 on April 17, 2007 12:03:23 pm
Liaqat Ali Khan was a mediocre politician with little vision or political backbone to stand for what is right. He was a an opportunists who had lived his entire political life under long shadows of Jinnah that he may have resented, thus his desperate bid to find a place in Pak politics.
Democracy does not need religion, what is needs is people willing to tolerate and respect differing opinions, virtues non-existent in any faith based ideologies.
Talibanization started only post Saudization of Pakistan, to say it started with objective resolution is incorrect and serves to gloss over Pak state rental policies.
Democracy does not need religion, what is needs is people willing to tolerate and respect differing opinions, virtues non-existent in any faith based ideologies.
Talibanization started only post Saudization of Pakistan, to say it started with objective resolution is incorrect and serves to gloss over Pak state rental policies.
#12 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 10:10:12 am
Re: # 11
...and the whole world would embrace democracy and ...ISLAM.
Aameen
Samar
...and the whole world would embrace democracy and ...ISLAM.
Aameen
Samar
#11 Posted by KaalChakra on April 17, 2007 9:54:35 am
Hope so, Khurram. ``Islamic democracy`` is a wonderful concept. It came naturally to all great social thinkers such as Iqbal, Jinnah, and Zulfie Bhutto. It will also appeal enormously to all Modernist Muslims who, like the rest, Muslims and nonMuslims, have to struggle with the decidedly flawed construct of democracy. Once Islamic democracy is put in place, it will be a breakthrough.
#10 Posted by khurram on April 17, 2007 9:20:50 am
What you are seeing is the working out of unresolved issues in the concept of ``Islamic democracy`` .
#9 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 17, 2007 9:03:34 am
Re: # 4
I don’t presume that Musharraf is against Mullahs on any principle. I was talking about the time he emerged on the scene as “Chief Executive” of Pakistan. He tried to establish his anti-Mullah credentials at that time and dropped the effort soon when he realized the power of Mullahs. As for using Mullahs to gain legitimacy, Musharraf is not unique in that regard. Every ruler of Pakistan has flirted with religious folks to tap into their influence. Even someone like ZA Bhutto who seemingly had secular tendencies was guilty of appeasing Mullahs.
Musharraf was given the task, which he accepted, to curtail the influence of religious organizations by USA. Either he hasn’t done anything about that or he has failed. A lot of other factors went against Musharraf as well in this regard. For instance, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were used by Mullahs to fuel the religious fervor of masses. Whatever the case and the causes, the outcome is that religious establishment enjoys the kind of influence in Pakistan today that is quite unprecedented. The point I am trying to make in my article is that the provision of necessary ingredients for Talibanization of Pakistan are not a recent phenomenon. Religious establishment’s dominance was always on cards since the birth of Pakistan.
I don’t presume that Musharraf is against Mullahs on any principle. I was talking about the time he emerged on the scene as “Chief Executive” of Pakistan. He tried to establish his anti-Mullah credentials at that time and dropped the effort soon when he realized the power of Mullahs. As for using Mullahs to gain legitimacy, Musharraf is not unique in that regard. Every ruler of Pakistan has flirted with religious folks to tap into their influence. Even someone like ZA Bhutto who seemingly had secular tendencies was guilty of appeasing Mullahs.
Musharraf was given the task, which he accepted, to curtail the influence of religious organizations by USA. Either he hasn’t done anything about that or he has failed. A lot of other factors went against Musharraf as well in this regard. For instance, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were used by Mullahs to fuel the religious fervor of masses. Whatever the case and the causes, the outcome is that religious establishment enjoys the kind of influence in Pakistan today that is quite unprecedented. The point I am trying to make in my article is that the provision of necessary ingredients for Talibanization of Pakistan are not a recent phenomenon. Religious establishment’s dominance was always on cards since the birth of Pakistan.
#8 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 17, 2007 8:44:03 am
A news item
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 04 17 story_17-4-2007_pg13_1
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 04 17 story_17-4-2007_pg13_1
#7 Posted by Urstruly on April 17, 2007 8:05:27 am
There is no doubt that there is a very strong Military-Mullah-Alliance but that is not the complete picture. One side of the picture is that there is a corrupt-to-the-core ruling class who inherited power from the British colonial powers. Initially, it was mostly feudal lords of Muslim league but over the decades this class has diversified itself. It controls Pakistan thru a culture of forced corruption and malaise. Now it is not a class but a mindset; a mindset that they inherited from their colonial masters where general populace is nothing but subhumans who needs to be controlled and exploited throu corruption, coercion, and by force. While military provides muscle to this class, `sirkari` moulvis control masses using religion; bureaucrats help keep general populace under thumb through corruption, inefficiency and malaise; teachers help corrupt young minds and make them insensitive to corruption and immorality. Media is used as a very effective tool to weaken the family values and family structure. Police - less said the better. So on and so forth...
The other side of the picture is the general masses who are put in a strait jacket by the vices created by this corrupt ruling elite. Most of them are without education and live by the moral code that their faith has given them and taught to them by their ancestors. But the educated among this class looked at this situation and slowly created a class of people who are developing moral backbones to stand upto the tyranny and only now they are able to see it into the eyes. This phenomenon is called Talibanization; literally meaning the ``Edification`` of the society. Through this edification a larger number of subalterns are begining to become self aware and they are beggining to realize how they are being kept from their moral self as individual and as society and nation. Do not forget that it is this segment of society that laid down the lives of over 1 million of their own to make this country and nation. The trauma of migration, genocide, and economic handicap that followed pacified their fervor for a while; because they couldn`t afford to create another mayhem but it is unwise to think that they have lost their moral direction. Be aware that this moral dirction has been injected into the genes of generations over the course of 1000 years of history of Islam in subcontinent. Thinking that this moral compass can be snatched away by some corrupt renegades who just happen to have more guns, is ridiculous.
Unfortunately, the time for a magna carta like social contract between these masses and the corrupt ruling elite has passed. The Constitution of 1973 provided a wonderful opportunity for all parties to reach an amicable and just social contract but the corrupt ruling elite in their collosal arrogance has completely raped the Constitution thru military force, corruption, and lawlessness.
In the past 7 years, both, the corrupt ruling class and the Edifiers i.e. Talibans have realized the fact that ``GHee seedhee ungli se nahiN nikle ga``. No matter what happens, but there is only one outcome of the conflict and that outcome is the manifest destiny of Democratic Islamic Emirates of Pakistan. Inshallah. Those who laid down 1 million lives in this cause are now ready to sacrifice whatever it takes.
#6 Posted by KaalChakra on April 17, 2007 8:03:59 am
This article, the one on Taslima Nasreen, and any number of others should open the eyes of even human bats. A reader doesn`t have to be as smart as Ustaad Zeemax or Khamkhwa bhaijan to see through the gameplan. This site has become a tool in the relentless hands of Indians and Hindus intent upon demeaning and destroying everything Pakistan and Islam are and stand for.
If championing the cause of global shirk, Hinduism, and Ahmedism has become the official goal of Chowk, that should be clearly stated.
If championing the cause of global shirk, Hinduism, and Ahmedism has become the official goal of Chowk, that should be clearly stated.
#5 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 6:36:11 am
Re: # 3, ally,
It`s not a Lahore bus or a Samjhota Express which could be stopped or reversed. As I said it`s a poisonous cactus which will go on swelling and than die of its own poison. I`m afraid there is no cure. All Indians are worried and feel sorry for Pakis but what can we do but to look on with sorrow.
Samar
It`s not a Lahore bus or a Samjhota Express which could be stopped or reversed. As I said it`s a poisonous cactus which will go on swelling and than die of its own poison. I`m afraid there is no cure. All Indians are worried and feel sorry for Pakis but what can we do but to look on with sorrow.
Samar
#4 Posted by vanguard on April 17, 2007 6:17:50 am
You assume that Musharraf was in principle against Mullahs. Funny thing is, Musharraf got his legitimacy from Mullahs. Its not without reason that MMA is known as Military Mullah Alliance.
The only reason he took a U turn on Taliban issue was he needed legitimacy from US for his rule and that U turn made that possible for him. We can all remember how Musharraf literally begged Bill Clinton to make a stopover at Pakistan and then BIll Clinton gave a speech to be televised directly on democracy to the nation.
Musharraf will never curtail the Mullahs. He needs them to lend legitimacy to his rule.
The only reason he took a U turn on Taliban issue was he needed legitimacy from US for his rule and that U turn made that possible for him. We can all remember how Musharraf literally begged Bill Clinton to make a stopover at Pakistan and then BIll Clinton gave a speech to be televised directly on democracy to the nation.
Musharraf will never curtail the Mullahs. He needs them to lend legitimacy to his rule.
#2 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 3:28:48 am
An eyeopener indeed! At least for us Indians, who have got used to observing this dreadful cactus of which you have dug out and shown the seed. A virulent green seed of disorientation and imbroglio!
Now, you better get ready for the onslaught.
Samar
Now, you better get ready for the onslaught.
Samar
#1 Posted by samar1982 on April 17, 2007 3:23:37 am
An eyeopener indeed! At least for us Indians, who were used to observing this monstrous cactus of which you have dug out the seed. A virulent green seed of disorientation and imbroglio!
Now, get ready for the onslaught.
Samar
Now, get ready for the onslaught.
Samar
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