Re: # 347
Frankly, I do not care what Mirza did or who he was as long as these people do not call their religion `Islam`. It is a starnge religion that it only becomes valid if Islam is discredited. Nowhere in the history of mankind such a phenomenon emerged before. It is true that Islam had to discredit polytheism of Arabia, certain traits of Christianity, and Judaism but it never called itself Judaism or polytheism or christianity for that matter. Islam called itself the religion of Abraham. Strange.

Khuram,

OK, some more details:

Belief in return of Issa is not a benign part of Islam. It is linked to brutality and bloodshed in the days to come.

Ullema believe that Issa will return and lead Islam to its final victory. How? Well, Issa will kill this one-eyd monster (dajjal) who will be riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. He will then join forces with Imam Mahdi and wage a battle of swords against non-believers. 70,000 jews will be killed. Millions more will be killed or forced to accept Islam on the blade of sword. Ensuing bloodshed, death, and destruction, will lead Islam to its final victory.

[BTW, Issa is then supposed to settle down, get married, and have children. No, this is not a joke …!]

Such a viewpoint is likely to lead believers to intellectual decay and violence, and not towards compassion and reason. Present day violent ideology of jihad is likely a product of such beliefs … where extreme violence and bloodshed by a prophet of Allah would lead Islam to its final victory. What’s good enough for the prophet is good enough for us … load the ak47.

Furthermore, such beliefs drive religion away from reason, and turn it into a fairytale. Christian clergy went down this path and led people to “dark ages”. Muslim ullema are heading down the same path, towards the same destination.

I could go on and on … but I hope you get the point.

Zeemax; Urstruly
A follower of a Mirza Liar-Lice [ jhhoot kee joon] has plenty of material available to embrace islam.

But the followers of Ghulam Farangi and boot-lickers of Farangi have to consider a lot more options in their miserable lives...they excel at ``pragmatism``. No wonder they always come to the rescue of the Munafiquoons & Murtadoons of CHOWK.

CHOWK is a glorified CHAT-ROOM...( self-delusional ``unflinching idealism`` hoopla by its owners notwithstanding) Never take it seriously. It is not a madressa or Darul-Uloom
Never ever try to convince; always ridicule...that is far more potent & effective.

it is really FUN.!!!!

---

Why did 1st Mureed of Mirza,

Mir Abbas Ali, leave the Jamaat?

READ the complete account here

an interesting excerpt

The Last Straw: that finally made him abandon the Liar


Once a Muslim conjurer came to Ludhiania. In
those days Mirza Ghulam was had just started boastful claims of being a
Promised Messiah. The conjurer came to Mirza Ghualm and said:

``Either you show me some trick or
I will show you mine.``

Mirza Ghulam said: You show me your trick.

Upon this, the conjurer took a weeding knife
and dig a little in the earth, put some seeds in it and sprinkled little
water. In a little while, shoots started coming out, within no time these
grew to about 18 inches in height. Then on each of them 5-7 different kinds
of flowers blossomed, each of them have a different fragrance.

Everyone was awestruck at this trick. Once
again this conjurer demanded:


``Show some miracle and I will show you all some more tricks.``

Mirza Ghulam said:


``I only know how to make dua, I do not know any other trick.``

Later Mirza Ghulam told Mir Abbas:


``Even if 100 or 200 ruppees are spent, we should try to learn this trick.``

This was the last straw, it put a permanent
knot in the heart of Mir Abbas Saheb. He thought: what kind of a Messiah
is he? He is definitely materialistic, if there had been even a trace of
love of Allah in his heart, he would not have been impressed with the conjurer`s
trick.

---

Mir Abbas demands a proof of Mirza Ghulam`s
prophethood

zeemax (#344) …

”Yup we`ll decide amongst ourselves …”

How much longer? It’s been 1400 years, you know.
I am getting a little tired of waiting :)

And don’t take Urstruly seriously; he is a heartbeat away from getting deported anyway ...

Sattar,

I gotta go now. I`ll attend to anymore of your questions (though I wonder if you still have any shame left for those) tomorrow.

Regards.

#343 by sattar2,

Yup we`ll decide amongst ourselves. In the meantime you`ll do well by listening to Urstruly`s advice contained in #339 i.e. ...``you are an innocent victim of Mirzaiat by no fault of yours but there is always time and opportunity to make up.``

Re #341:

I am not sure what you are alluding to here …
But can the three of you decide if Issa is in the sky or buried or what?

- You think such belief is superstition, designed for the uninformed (read “idiots”)
- Urstruly thinks this is a matter of faith, which is blind, and one should not mix faith with reason (next piller of Islam: earth is flat)
- Naqsh firmly believes Issa would descend down to earth from above clouds, on shoulders of two angels.

What does wikipedia say ?? khuram and I are now curious as hell ...

#340 by sattar2,

Does all this sound right ...? Or did I miss something ...?

Yeah. You missed that part about Issa having escaped crucifixion and having escaped to Kashmir and having died of old age there and having resurrected in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in Qadian, as per Mirza Ghiulam Ahmed Qadiani of-course, of Muhammadi Begum fame.

Cheers!

sattar2,

In your utter dishonesty, you also left the last para from my post #1118 which you reproduced:

As for Naqsh and Urstruly, they are my own. Please do not teach me whether it will sit well with them or not. They`re Muslims, while you aren`t.

Shame on you.

No regards.

echo (#330),

I listened to the clips …

The person who answered the phone could not respond to the question and cursed the caller. I fail to see your point.

Why not quote from Quran and tell us about Issa-in-the-sky. This may help zeemax decide if he should laugh or cry …

Look, after delving in Islam and evolution, Urstruly is now insisting that belief has nothing to do with reason. In other words, Islam requires blind faith. Either one believes or he does not. Issa may be in the sky, or buried, or out of the galaxy by now … it is a part of faith. Moses parted the ocean, Solomon talked to animals. Same same. And btw, earth is flat and Issa would some day descend down to earth. Same same.

But zeemax would have none of it ... and thinks all this is superstition (or myths?). But then again, he things superstition too is a part of Islam and appeals to the uninformed - aka ``idiots``.

Does all this sound right ...? Or did I miss something ...?

Re: # 336

I am silent on `issa (pbuh) in sky`` issue because I have already discussed it with you. I also told you that a belief can not be proven right or wrong by its very nature, it is that that you either believe in it or you don`t. The Muslim belief of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencion to heavens before he was crucified is different from whatever the belief of Mirzaiat is in this regards because these two religions are diametrically opposite religions. They are mutually exculsive in their belief system. If you believe that God is so helpless that He cannot ascend Jesus (pbuh) to heavens, saving having from crucification, then more power to you. If you think that our belief in Jesus` (pbuh) ascension, Moses` (pbuh)parting of sea, an ant communicating with King Solomon (pbuh), Holy Prophet`s parting of moon etc. are all superstitions then even more power to you. I do not think any of it effects our health any way.

Having said that what I call superstitious blind faith is when I posted the photocopy of Mirza Sahib`s book where he called all Muslims as sons of prostitutes, and even then you saying that it is not true. I have appealed to your good conscience many times before that you can get out of this misery of Mirzaiat, which was probably inflicted upon you through accident of birth, with absolutely no fault of your own, by rejecteing it. Accept Islam and become our brother. Yes fruads do happen in this world and you are an innocent victim of Mirzaiat by no fault of yours but there is always time and opportunity to make up.

#336 by sattar2,

Very good. So your google is working. But you wisely leave out the context from which this conversation began on that board:

#1098 by zeemax on April 9, 2007 11:37am PT
#1094 by sattar2,

Muhammad never performed miracles. He didn`t split the moon, nor multiplied food. He was an ordinary man. All these quotes are false.

What did happen though was that `Meraj`. And that too, there wasn`t any winged horse involved. All these things are to give a mythological significance to Muhammad`s profound experiences ..

Again, I say, Islam ranges from what appeals to the uninformed up to other things for the highly informed. But, and it`s a big but, In the end, it is the same.

But you may have difficulty in understanding that.

Now can we get back to the Mirza video and the two audios that echo posted plus the wiki link about Muhammadi Begum that I posted? Thanks.

Regards.

#335 by echoboom,

I don`t know whether to laugh or cry ...

zeemax (re #331),

You were OK with equating parts of Islam with superstition. But first, here’s what you wrote on Issa:

” …If Issa-ibne-Marriam continues to reside above clouds, it is for those who will believe it. For those who know better, they know what it means...``

Ahem, ahem. Are you telling me that Issa is not above clouds? But Maudoodi suggested he is indeed above clouds. Urstruly remains silent on the subject, although Naqsh and zeena are firm believers.

Can you guys make up your mind first??

You further wrote:

`` ... You`re partly right when you say the part of Islam that appeals to uninformed … is called superstition. But I won`t put it in that bracket. Sufiism is superstition, not Muhammad`s Islam. Muhammad himself never claimed to be an extraordinary person, and his last sermon as well as his deathbed utterings are proof of that. It`s only that however you can make a person get the drift, that is the best way … ``


Click [Islam vs. superstition …Girls Gone Wild ... reply #1118]

+++

How about superstition as a way to make a person get the drift? You seemed to be OK with it. So why cringe now ... ?

Zemax:332
Echo can you post that video again?

---

Of course:

---

Zeemax:33
Do you think the caller is referring to the following prophecy?

---

Of course!


But then the impostor`s whole personna is infested & crawling with Lies-lice.

That is your Mirza-Ghulaam-Farangi.

khuram (#329), fair question …

“Issa in the skies” suggests Islam is a superstitious religion. This further suggests that a Muslim should disregard science, reason … and simply believe … and not question, or think, or analyze … but should keep his head down and believe.

Yes, the earth could be flat, you know ...

On the other hand “Issa buried somewhere” makes perfect sense. Doesn’t it?