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In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth

Mohammad Gill April 22, 2007

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#461 Posted by teshah on May 11, 2007 8:56:37 pm
Re: # 442
sattar

``It seems Bahais are not seen as a threat and perhaps hence largely ignored by mullah in Pakistan. They seem to be persecuted in Iran though … I don’t know the details …``

Right! Bhaies are persecuted in Iran, there home-ground and Ahmadies likewise in Pakistan. I think Bhaies may not present a challenge to the Paky Mullah but they are evidently a greater challenge to Islam as they assert that Islam, which had a life of 1200 years only, has long since expired like the other pre-Islamic Abrahamic religions. But the Paky Mullah totally ignored it because it did not affect his business. I wonder Bhais have a palatial centre here in Islamabad but few people know about it. Probably because the Mullah did not provide it negative publicity as they did in the case of Ahmadiat. In fact the greatest danger to the mullah business is the appearance of a prophet, even a false one, as they may call.
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#460 Posted by sattar2 on May 11, 2007 2:36:15 pm

Urstruly,

It is laughable to have you assert belief in science … while waiting for a prophet from 2000 years ago to climb out of his grave. That’s all.

… didn’t mean to upset you over this whole Islam thing. No need to get so defensive. All you need is more faith … and everything will be alright. No, really …

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#459 Posted by Urstruly on May 11, 2007 1:30:18 pm
TOURRET SYNDROME:
One of the symptoms of Tourettes would be Coprolalia (outburst of obscenities and curse words).
cop·ro·la·li·a - cursing, uttering obscenities, the explosive utterance of foul or ``dirty`` words or more elaborate sexual, aggressive or insulting statements (e.g., racial slurs). Literally, “dung talking”, because of a compulsion to do so. ``
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#458 Posted by Urstruly on May 11, 2007 1:24:45 pm

There you go again with your Tourette Syndrome. Please explain to me what is that that compels you everytime to ``stir up the pot`` despite the fact that everytime it is you who ends up even more miserable. Look, for the thousandeth time, I have no interest in ``proving`` quadiani system of belief right or wrong, as long as you do not ascribe the name ``Islam`` to your belief system. Live and let live. You must learn to have tolerance towards the beliefs of others. Sadly, I must point this out to you the undeniable obvious, again, that Quadianiat cannot stand on its on merit.
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#457 Posted by sattar2 on May 11, 2007 10:40:26 am

Urstruly,

You really are dense … and just another nutcase with superstitious beliefs. And I am ok with it (grin). Apparently Islam is flexible enough to accommodate beliefs of the uninformed (read idiots). Welcome to Islam: Bring along your superstitions; let’s have a party. Takbeer.

Next pillars of Islam: Earth is flat; white man is evil; women should be periodically beaten up to please god.

So you think Jesus will be resurrected? But he did not die in the first place! Apparently he remains alive to this day, in flesh and blood, and resides above the clouds. What resurrection??? He simply needs to descend from the clouds … that would be a good start!

+++

This would be a good time for you to stop harping about millions of Muslims who believe in evolution and science. It makes you come across as a rambling fool trying hard to sound intelligent. No?

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#456 Posted by Urstruly on May 11, 2007 6:57:35 am
Re: # 455

So Mirza Sahib was a spiritual Jesus Christ and not the real Jesus of Nazareth (pbuh). Shouldn`t then he would have faught a spiritual one-eyed fire breathing donkey at least. But anyway ``to you your belief and to me mine``. And more power to you if that is your belief.

The Muslim belief in this regard is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) will be ressurected again when the time of the Day of Final Judgement would be near, as an adult, in Damascus. Once again his reincarnation in this world would be (this time not only without father but mother as well) as miraculous as it was then when he was born to Virigin Mary (pbuh). He will unite all the Muslims around the globe and establish a glabal empire of faith during his lifetime, instead of creating a petty little cult.
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#455 Posted by sattar2 on May 10, 2007 4:03:06 pm

… in other words, Issa died 2000 years ago, has been dead since then, and is expected to stay that way for times to come. I hope this is now clear (grin).

Your ullema believing in science and evolution is fine and dandy; I am impressed!! But pray tell us, how do they suppose this Issa will come back? Climb out of his grave, or descend from skies where he supposedly has been residing all this time …???

... we are all curious, you know ...
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#454 Posted by sattar2 on May 10, 2007 2:24:06 pm

Urstruly,

I am glad we are discussing basic, little things … which adequately highlight your sheer stupidity.

According to Mirza Sahib, Issa died almost 2000 years ago and has been buried in Kashmir ever since. He is not going to climb out of his grave.

Furthermore, reappearance of Issa is a spiritual metaphor, which has been fulfilled in prophethood of Mirza Sahib.

Got it, little genius??

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#453 Posted by Urstruly on May 10, 2007 2:00:31 pm
Re: # 452

The truth is on the record that Mirza claimed to be the very Jesus Christ who was saved from cross and brought to Kashmir. He claimed that in no uncertain terms. There is no innuendo. So either you are lying about your own belief or all the records of Mirza`s accounts are wrong. In both cases you should repent and seek forgiveness from Allah for your indiscretion and transgression.
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#452 Posted by sattar2 on May 10, 2007 1:50:45 pm

Urstruly,

Ahamdi-Muslims believe that Issa died at an old age, like a normal human being. His reappearance refers to a prophet among Muslims who will bear spiritual resemblance to Issa.

Is this too difficult to understand?? I’ll wait for your answer before going further, you idiot!!

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#451 Posted by Urstruly on May 10, 2007 1:16:35 pm
Let me get this straight. According to Quadiani beliefs God can resurrect Jesus Christ (pbuh), who was living somewhere else but clouds, in the physical person of Mirza Quadiani, but cannot resurrect humanity in physical appearance on the Day of Final Judgment? As a Qura`n thumping Mirzai would you also care to explain when Qura`n says that `` At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.``

Well, I can imagine the sense of hearing and sight of spiritual beings but what about ``skin``.

Here is the detail. Fear the Day.



``On the Day that the enemies of Allah will be gathered together to the Fire, they will be marched in ranks.
At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their skins will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.
They will say to their skins: ``Why bear ye witness against us?`` They will say: ``(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.
``Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your skins should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!
``But this thought of yours which ye did entertain concerning your Lord, hath brought you to destruction, and (now) have ye become of those utterly lost!``

…………….Chapter - (Signs) Explained 41:19-23

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#450 Posted by sattar2 on May 10, 2007 10:51:09 am

Urstruly,

When I saw the pic, my immediate reaction was to think that Jesus has been sighted on the moon! May be in the next pic you post ...??

Resurrection on the Day of Judgment would be spiritual, and not physical, in nature. Similarly, reappearance of Jesus refers to coming of a prophet in the spirit of Jesus. Got it, little genius? Refer to #377 for details.

Moving on

Are you are telling us that Jesus has been residing above clouds for past two thousand years … will descend down to earth on shoulders of two angels … and will fight a one-eyed monster who will be riding a giant fire-breathing donkey …??

It is fine for you to be superstitious. Just don’t harp about millions of Muslims believing in evolution and science and such stuff. It comes across as double-talk. And as you suggested, one either has faith, or he does not; belief has little to do with reason and cannot be questioned.

Next pillar of your Islam: earth is flat! We’ve been there … it was called “dark ages”. Thanks, but no, thanks.

And as zeemax explained, Islam does not support superstition, but is flexible enough to accommodate beliefs of the uninformed (read “idiots”).

Got any more cool pics??
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#449 Posted by Folio on May 10, 2007 9:55:02 am
Urstruly,

U mean 2 say that the line u see on the moon was made by Muhammed?

Was the ring-band around Saturn cud be the foreskin of the prophet?? Plz clarify.

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#448 Posted by Urstruly on May 10, 2007 7:06:22 am

``How will Allah ressurect Jesus Christ (pbuh), residing in heavens?``

It is the same question that jahil kaffir beduines used to ask Holy Prophet (pbuh), as to how will Allah ressurect us all on the Day of Final Judgment from mere dust and bones. It is Allah who showed those Beduines how He can split the moon in half just as Holy Prophet (pbuh) waved his finger.

Look at this and be humble:

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#447 Posted by sattar2 on May 9, 2007 9:21:10 am

OK, I’ll stir the pot once again … to bring the discussion back to issue raised in this article …

Is Issa coming down or not …?

zeemax, you were supposed to reach consensus with Urstruly and Naqsh.
What’s the verdict?

Urstruly, let’s set aside them millions of Muslims who believe in evolution and science and stuff … question remains … how is this Issa supposed to reappear? Don’t be hard on yourself ... I suspect your faith has become weak … in which case Issa may scrap the plan altogether. “What’s the point?”, he’d wonder …

On the other hand, how long can he stay above clouds?? Global warming may make the heat unbearable for him … or he may simply fall through the hole in ozone layer … No???
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#446 Posted by Folio on May 8, 2007 2:38:13 pm
And this video has the images of our farthest known universe, ever taken by human beings.......

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#445 Posted by Folio on May 8, 2007 1:39:58 pm
B4 this article goes into the archives...............



People like Echoboom, Urstruly etc can have peace in rejecting these facts BUT `People Like Us` (PLUS) would amaze at the wonders of this Universe...........looking at these objecs with a critical view than from the standpoint of `belief`.


The BIGGEST stalemate of this world (btw belivers and non-believers) continues..........




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#444 Posted by sattar2 on May 8, 2007 9:58:35 am

Urstruly,

If Issa is still above clouds and Solomon talked to ants, then anything is possible.

You think that either one believes, or he does not; faith is beyond question ... beyond reason ... and has little to do with sense. Takbeer. Verily, Allah does what He wills …

… so what about them Muslims who believe in science and evolution. I reckon their faith is weak. No??

... or we could wait for your Issa to descend from the clouds and settle this matter. Till then you are only making a fool of yourself ...
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#443 Posted by Urstruly on May 8, 2007 9:39:30 am

Re: # 440

I am only letting you get away with these lies and false quadiani propaganda, because I am too bored with this subject at the moment.
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#442 Posted by sattar2 on May 8, 2007 7:55:37 am

teshah,

… you’re welcome.

It seems Bahais are not seen as a threat and perhaps hence largely ignored by mullah in Pakistan. They seem to be persecuted in Iran though … I don’t know the details …

Regarding the riddle: this child may or may not be considered illegitimate, depending upon who you ask. For the mother, it is legitimate; for the father it is not. Others may form opinions based upon hearsay. A court could decide by looking at circumstantial evidence, DNA tests etc. So no clear cut answers at this point …

Although if the child has a mole on its butt right where the father has one ... chances are it is his kid indeed ...
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#441 Posted by teshah on May 7, 2007 9:37:36 pm
Re: # 439

Sattar2

Thank you for the clarification.

But Bhaaies used almost all paraphernalia of Islam minus rituals without claiming to be Muslim and so the Paky Mullah is not after them for that reason.

My question is; what would you call a person whom one`s wife claims to be her son or is supposed to be so but her husband doesn`t consider him to be so? Will he not technically be called an illegitimate son?



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#440 Posted by sattar2 on May 7, 2007 4:48:42 pm

khuram,

My post #439 to Zeena addresses some of the points you seemingly alluded to.

Mirza Sahib claimed to be the prophet of Islam raised by Allah, foretold by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). For him and his followers, Islam represents a complete way of life.

Disbelievers tend to ostracize prophet and his followers, who, in response, develop an identity separate from that of non-believers. I don’t think there is anything new or unusual here.

Parallels between early Muslims and Ahmadi-Muslims …

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold revival of Islam by its future prophet. Ahmadis claim to have accepted this prophet. It is therefore fitting for them to draw parallels between themselves and early Muslims.

Some details … Early Muslims were persecuted for declaring their faith in Islam; today Ahamdi-Muslims are imprisoned for declaring their faith in Islam. In both cases this persecution has been harshest in the land of the prophet. Early Muslims bore this persecution with patience, without retaliating with violence. Same is the case with Ahamdi-Muslims – despite their violent persecution, you will be hard pressed to find incidents where Ahmadis engaged in violence.

Early Muslims were not allowed to perform Haj; today Ahmadi-Muslims are not allowed to perform Haj. Demise of the Prophet in each case led to establishment of institution of khilafat.

Parallels are quite obvious to the discerning eye.

Furthermore … Abu Jehal, staunchest leader of opposition, was killed as he fought against the Prophet (pbuh) and his people. Quran tell us that Pharaoh died a humiliating death as he opposed Prophet Moses (pbuh) and his people. 3 kings of our times who were instrumental in persecution of Ahmadis … Faisal, Bhutto, Zia … all died most horrible deaths: one was killed by his own nephew, one was hanged like an animal, and one was blown up in the sky.

Ahmadi-Muslims are justified in interpreting these events as signs of divine support. History of early Islam is full of such events ... often cited by Muslims, even today, to support truthfulness of Islam.

Once again, I insist that you use same criterion in both cases.

National Assembly

Transcripts of “Ahmadi hearings” of 1973 by National Assembly remain a secret. The government refused to make them public. One can only wonder what government and their ullema are hiding.

”True” Muslims

You are incorrect in suggesting that Ahmadis do not consider rest of Muslims as “true” Muslims. Yours is an erroneous view. While Ahmadis have accepted Imam of this age, they consider rest of Muslims as Muslims indeed.

Intelligence and wisdom

I am not sure what to make of your comment regarding Ahmadis trapped in ideas of superiority of intelligence and wisdom …

One may also argue that … Muslims are trapped in idea of superiority of intelligence and wisdom of Prophet Muhammad and his Caliphs. So what does it all mean??

Ahmadis do study works of prominent Muslim scholars and hold them in esteem … unless of course, they tell us that suicide-bombings are jihad. Such ullema we call jamaatis :-)

I remain unsure of basis or purpose of your “superiority” comments. Without explanation or proper context, they come across as ill-thought out.
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#439 Posted by sattar2 on May 7, 2007 1:39:01 pm

Zeena (#428),

You are using double-standards here …

One may also argue that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) should have simply remained a philosopher and a saint, without claiming prophethood.

My answer would be … Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) claimed to be a prophet because Allah made him a prophet.

Similarly, Mirza Sahib claimed to be a prophet since Allah Almighty made him a prophet.

You further asked:

”… why he and his new religion never got accepted among majority of Muslims? …”

But first you must ask … “why Muhamamd (pbuh) and his new religion never got accepted among majority of people of the world?

Even after 1400 years, 80% of world population has not accepted Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Why??

+++

teshah (#429),

Since Allah Almighty calls believers “Muslim” in Quran, Ahmadis consider themselves Muslims. Others may consider them non-Muslims … that’s their choice.

As Munir report showed, politics of definition of “Muslim” is pitiful. When asked, ullema could not agree to a definition of Muslim. At the same time each considered his definition to be the correct one, and that those who disagree with him are non-Muslims. It was a joke ...

Leader of Ahmadi-Muslim community is their “khalifa”. Wives of khulfaa are considered “ummulmomieen” by the community. The khalifa may be called “Abulmomineen” if there is such a term. Actually he is called “ameer-ul-momineen” … just like khulfaa Abu-bakr, Omar, Usman, Ali were referred to by early Muslims.

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#438 Posted by sattar2 on May 7, 2007 9:48:17 am

khuram

Well-written posts, with proper context, albeit a few caveats. A few comments:

#416: I don’t know about Mirza Sahib’s direct invitation to the Queen to accept Islam. He may have offered it. A prophet’s role is to invite everyone to religion of Allah, so I would not be surprised if he did; will try to find out more as time permits.

#427: I am not sure what claim came first: that of Mahdi or Issa; will try to follow up on this too.

Aik ghalti ka izala had to do with beliefs regarding Prophet Issa. One of the first books of Mirza Sahib was Buraheen-e-Ahmadiyya, which he wrote before attaining prophethood. In Buraheen-e-Ahmadiyya he elucidated strength, completeness of Islam. Here he also expressed support for “Islamic” belief that Issa was alive. This turned out to be incorrect, as was later revealed to him by Allah Almighty.

To correct this error, which he had made as a human without divine help, he wrote Aik ghalti ka izala. In this book he corrected his mistake and argued that Issa had indeed died like any other mortal human. He cited verses from Quran and reasoned in support of this view. This view was a major step forward in reconciliation of Quran with reason.

He later wrote another book “Masih Hindustan MeiN” (Issa in Hindustan). In this book he quoted from Quran as well as Biblical accounts to show how events unfolded as Jews conspired with Roman Judge (Pontius Pilate) to have Issa-ibne-Marriam crucified. To sum things up, Issa was nailed to cross, he became unconscious, was assumed dead, was taken down while still alive, and was nursed back to health. He then migrated from Jerusalem in search of remaining tribes of Israel. He traveled eastwards, reaching Kashmir, where he eventually died his natural death.

As Quran explains, Issa was sent for reformation of Israelites. During this time, out of 12 tribes of Israel, only 2 were to be found in Jerusalem. Remaining 10 tribes had migrated eastwards owing to wars and persecution. Even today, tribal people of Kashmir trace their roots to Israelite tribes.

Mirza Sahib wrote some 80-odd books … mostly in Arabic, Urdu, and Persian.

He wrote Islamic Usool Ki Philosophy (Philosophy of Principles of Islam) in 1895. This book was written as a paper to be presented at a inter-religious conference, organized by a Hindu scholar. Mirza Sahib could not attend this conference. This paper was read on his behalf by a companion of his. The paper was well-received. The conference was extended beyond its allocated days in order to allow time for this paper to be fully read.

More later …

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#437 Posted by zeemax on May 6, 2007 9:42:05 am
#436 by Tehsinabbasi,

Tehsin, I would be glad to do that. However, I don`t like to be ridiculed. That`s fair, isn`t it? You have seen a non-Muslim i.e. Kaalchakra understand and contemplate and then come out in his tremendous intellect in trying to expound on what I say. That`s his choice. And his choice is not an easy one. It takes walking through hell`s fire and brimstones to do that.

If you want to find the `Principles`, do those on your own. If you can`t find them, I wish you the best of luck.

But, I could help you. However, I`m not very welcoming to vile abuse. To you your God, to me my Allah.

Regards.
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#436 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on May 6, 2007 8:20:53 am
#432 by zeemax

“If a liberally inclined Muslim understands and accepts as true the underlying principles of Islamic society”

May be you can elaborate on these fundamental principles. Better yet why don’t you define them first and then just describe them with some examples.

Thanks!
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#435 Posted by Folio on May 6, 2007 12:28:48 am
Echoboom has produced a palque that reads that Muhammed is the LAST prophet from Al-Lah.

Why so?

Does self-proclamation by Muhammed is enough? It`s at best is self-aggrandisement on the pat of Muhammed.

Muhammed is a human being and Al-lah is supreme. He/She (al Lah) can choose to communicate with his people as and when he pleases. It`s foolish that he spoke some 1400 years ago and kept quiet from then on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It appears that self-appointed thekedar like Muhammed had many followers and these guyz must be known as Muhammedans. Let people who believe in the prophethood of Ali be called as Shias (they are being called, in fact) and people who believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed be called Ahmadis.

Whoever believes in Al Lah is a Muslim.
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#434 Posted by khuram on May 6, 2007 12:11:14 am
Re: # 432

I like Wasif Ali Wasif and Ghamidi and likes because they are meeting the religious and intellectual problems of our present day. They don`t just stay in the false pride of past glory. They are meeting the challenges of today.
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#433 Posted by Zeena on May 5, 2007 10:39:52 pm
#430 zeemax

Re:- Very clear concept.

zeemax

You have closed the whole discussion in to few words and said it all. Very well said.

Exactly, I felt the samething. If, you re read my post # 428, it is almost the same concept.
Now i am more clear about all this mess.....
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#432 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 10:29:23 pm
#431 by khuram,

If they do not like to study Maududi,, then they should listen to let`s say Ghamidi,

Yes. Ghamdi in my opinion is the best and sincere scholar who can bridge the divide between the estranged Liberals who quote things like ``there is no compulsion in religion`` and take it as a license to lead any kind of a life as convenient while still claiming to be Muslims, and the hardliners who believe Islamic Principles above all are to dictate daily conduct of individuals.

This is not saying that Ghamdi is right. He tends to attempt to rationalise the basic Principles in light of current environment, but side steps the heated contentious issues. However, his manner of interpretation is one which reduces conflict. And that is a significant contribution.

In my opinion, the basic societal principles of Islam are inviolable. The only thing which can be open to a compromise in light of current environment is the penal code. Other things like the manner of female dress, work, intermingling of the sexes in normal day-today activities, mandatory prayers, curbs on entertainment and other such are just the harsh remedies also allowed in the vast spectrum of political Islam, but their implementation hardened and compounded by Islamophobist propoganda.

There have indeed been Islamic societies which imposed these, but only as an extreme measure to regiment a wayward society and to curb the lose family and sexual mores as in Iran during Pehlavi time, or even in Afghanistan during Nadir shah, therefore the tough sanctions imposed by Khomeini and the Taliban. I see this phenomenon as no different than when Mao imposed identical uniforms on men and women so it was hard to tell which one was which. But none of these were there in the original Islamic societies of Muhammad himself and his Companions.

If a liberally inclined Muslim understands and accepts as true the underlying principles of Islamic society, rest would be easy. The lament is that none of these do because for them identity is not important. Their daily rations and the freedoms that selfishness brings are.
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#431 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 9:09:48 pm
Yes Mirza has used Islam ... and Islamic teachings as a try to get recognition in the eyes of whole Muslim Ummah. But it was the demand of his nature of claims as well. He had the claims of being ``Imam Mehdi for Muslims``,, and ``Issa - who was to appear among Muslim in the capacity of a sub-ordinate to the Prophet of Islam (PBUH). So with these types of claims, he just could not go outside the teachings of Islam. He only has ``interpretated`` many Islamic teachings in a particular way.

And yes I had been thinking of what could be the exact need of forming a new community. My findings are same as pointed out by Zeemax as well; that the exact reason was only his claims. Those who accepted those claims, became a separate party and then eventually organized into the form of a community.

Ahmedies got themselves more isolated when they started making analogy of their own community with the early period of Islam. One of the posts of Sattar also reveals this thing where he pointed out resemblence of Muslim attitude with Ahmedies and the early Kuffars`s attitude with the early Muslims.

In this way, Ahmedies became an isolated community. Perhaps they also do not consider rest of Muslims to be ``true`` Muslims for the reason that rest of Muslims have been failed in rescognizing true Imam Mehdi. I think that this was the main reason of why National Assembely declared then to be ``Non-Muslims``.

Sattar also had pointed out resemblance of this community with the early Christian community. Hazrat Issa also had not crossed the boundaries of the Shariah of Hazrat Musa but still formed a separate community.

Ahmedies do are trapped in false ideas of some ``superiority of intelligence and wisdom`` of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and his Caliphs. My advice to them is that they should study the works of other prominent Muslim Scholars in order to know that there are many other more intelligent and wise people in Muslims. If they do not like to study Maududi,, then they should listen to let`s say Ghamidi,, or should study Wasif Ali Wasif.

Regards!

Regards!
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#430 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 7:32:31 pm
#427 by khuram,

Regretfully you have failed again in answering my query. Claiming to be Jesus Christ is a `Claim`, not a teaching. Claiming to be Mahdi is a `Claim`, not a teaching. Khatme-Nabuwwat or lack of it is a `Claim`, not a teaching. His being intelligent if you say so is nothing special. Hundreds of others were much more intelligent. I hope you follow me.

By using his `claims` and `intelligence`, all he taught was for his followers to undermine Jihad. To act as fifth columnists within the Muslim community posing as one of them, and to infiltrate into their highest echelons. To work in the interests of British and get rewarded in return, and to ultimately become the power elite in the Muslim ranks.

That is why they were exposed and kicked out of Muslims ranks. That is solely what Mirza ever taught. Nothing else. Other pranks of his were just `claims`.
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#429 Posted by teshah on May 5, 2007 7:06:37 pm
Re: # 382

khuram

Well done dear! Keep it up. In fact we also need people like Zeena and Zeemax who represent a childish mindset which can exist only in an obscurantist make-believe world. I wonder their only objection against Ahmadies is why they call themselves Muslim.

I personally found Ahmedies very good people and wonder why they called themselves Muslim, which is at best an ambiguous term as per famous Munir Inquiry Report.

What I personally found anything objectionable against them was when I saw in Rabwah the plaque of `Ummulmomineen` fixed on a grave. The grave was of Ms Bashir, wife of Khalifah II of Ahmadies, if rightly recollect. But strange enough no epithet of `Abulmomineen` I found recorded on the grave of her husband, Mirza Bashir, Khalifa II of Ahmadies.

What does this mean? Were Ahmadi Momineens also `fatherless`?
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#428 Posted by Zeena on May 5, 2007 6:51:38 pm
#425/427 khuram sahib

Thanks for your answers. Now I have more clear concept of this new cult called mirzaism.

But, my question is still there.......Why Mr.Mirza invented this new cult? There was absolutely NO need of that cult.

Yes, if,( as you posted) MrMirza was a scholar, then he could have remained scholar, but, there was NO need of announcing that he was mesiah or Jesus Christ or a prophet....That was the main reason Mirzaism is not considered Islam.

After reading all your posts thoroughly, in my pov, Mirzais is a separate cult or religion than Islam. Yes, the biggest mistake that Mr.Mirza did was to use Islam and Quran as his basic weapons and twisted them to invent a new cult or religion. It would be better for him NOT to use Islam or Quran as the basis of his ideology.

Mr.Mirza , if, would have invented his own ideology without using the clutches of Islam, he would have have had been more respectful among others.

What he did was a terrible blunder. I do not think this man was intellignet to use his own mind rather than twisting Quranic ideology to suit his mind. He reminds of of some ignorant Mullahs who have had been abusing Quran by twisting Quranic verses for their own convenience.


Now, as he claimed to be the messiah or prophet or jesus christ....question is, why he and his new religion never got accepted among majority of Muslims?

Only he was able to make few disciples......

Almost all Muslim world rejected his twisted teachings. And did not recognize him as a prophet or messiah or jesus christ. You know why? b/c no one is stupid to follow him blindly while knowing the facts.......thanks for your feedback, though.
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#427 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 9:21:35 am
Basically he was an emerging Muslim Scholar. His activities were Manazaras or books writings intended to save Islam from the attacks of other religions like Arya Samaj and Christianity. He got some popularity and then started claiming spiritual experiences. He started projecting his predictions and some people became inspired. Ahmedies believe that some major enemies of Islam were died un-natural deaths only because of Mirza`s predictions. Then Mirza came with various major claims not at once but successively. At first step he realized that Hazrat Issa died a normal death,,, at other stage,,, he claimed to be that ``Issa`` who was to appear among Muslims,,, I don`t know whether he claimed to be Imam Mehdi before or after it. Then he got in problem with the issue of Khatm-e-Nabuwat. Perhaps at first he did some mistake about the issue of ``Khatam-e-Nabuwat`` ... but then he clarified the mistake in a separate booklet .. i think ``aik ghalti ka azala``..

I don`t know whether he was right or wrong in his claims ... but he was intelligent enough that he made a complete case of his claims in his many books ... I think he wrote perhaps more than 50 books. For example, in order to show that Hazrat Issa really died,,, he collected many proofs out of Quran, Hadith, writings of many Muslim Scholars as well as historical evidences.

Similarly, he also has made a detailed case about the issue of Khatam-e-Nabuwat as well as the issue of jihad. I already stated that I have read his book ``Islami Usool Ki Philosophy``. In fact this book was read allowed in an all India inter-religion manazara. And this book won that manazara even though some other promionent Muslim scholars also participated in that manazara. Ahmedy beliefs are more rational in nature. In fact Ahmedy beliefs are like a blend of fundamentalism with the approach of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Mirza takes symbolic meanings of many Quranic terms. But unlike Sir Syed,, he tends to give proof of those symbolic meanings out of same Quran.

Regards!
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#426 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 7:42:16 am
#424/425 by khuram

But what did he teach? The question remains unanswered Khuram, despite all your attempts.

Just give bulleted points on what he taught that was different from Islam.

Thanks.
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#425 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 6:25:12 am
Re: # 424

correction: shame (first lines) = shape
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#424 Posted by khuram on May 5, 2007 6:20:57 am
# 422 and 423 .. Zeemax & Zeena

``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``

I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.

So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?

That`s the next obvious question.


Ahmediyat has assumed the shame of an organized community. Mirza`s descendents are at advantageous position because they have become elite members of this community. They are running a dictatorship in the name of Caliphate, in the community.

This community considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be true Imam Mehdi and the promissed Masih. They believe that Mirza has resolved all the outstanding internal disputes of Muslim Nation. For example, in his writings,,, Mirza has discussed internal differences of Shiaism and Ahl-e-Sunnat, of Ahl-e-Hadith and Ahl-e-Quran etc. etc. After necessary discussions, he has drawn his conclusions. For example his decision goes in favor of Ahl-e-Sunnat on the issue of status of first three Caliphs of Islam. He also considers Hazrat Ali to be legitimate fourth Caliph. etc. etc.

Essentially these are just points of views. But since his community considers him true Imam Mehdi, so status of his points of views becomes authority in their eyes. In addition, this community usually abstains from various cultural and religious customs and traditions. For example, they do not offer Qul and Chehlum etc. They don`t go to shrines of walis as well.

Anyways, Mirza could serve Islam better if he did not come up with his claims. He would have got a respectable position in the eyes of whole Muslim Ummah, instead of becoming authority for a small and insignificant size community.

Secondly his community had no advantage for British Crown. Such a small size community could do nothing for the cause of British crown. Only few moderate minded people could not change the over-all anti British sentiments. Beliefs of this community are totally opposite to Christian beliefs. This community believes Mirza to be ``Hazrat Issa``. Now try to think how Cristians and therefore British Crown could digest this belief...??? Because in this way, Mirza becomes equal in status to their own prophet. So emergence of this community had its own dynamics,, which were independent of any planning of the British government.
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#423 Posted by Zeena on May 5, 2007 3:58:48 am
khuram sahib

As per zeemax....[[So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?

That`s the next obvious question.

Regards]]

Yes, why?
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#422 Posted by zeemax on May 5, 2007 12:53:05 am
#416 by khuram

Let`s forget about Queen Victoria (and her most obedient servant) for a minute. Let`s first answer my question of #396 reproduced below to which a response is awaited:

``My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?``

I suspect the answer is ``Nil``.

So why did he then invent this religion? To teach what? Or was it just to produce loyal servants of the British empire who rather than resisting, would actually work in advancing its colonial interests around the world?

That`s the next obvious question.

Regards
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#421 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 10:20:37 pm

#420

And God spake thus...

``Haul that Gill guy right here

And before I whip his buttt...

Let him read the following...``


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#420 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:57:30 pm

#419

...And they all scratch their (graying) heads and moth-eaten beards repeatedly and ponder aloud...

``He did, He did not! He did, He did not!...``

Create the Heavens, and the Earth, of course!

And so the count goes on...

``One - run!``

``Two - true!``

``Three - whee!``

``Four - gore!``

``Five - thrive!``

``Six - licks!``

``Seven - heaven!``

``Eight - wait!``

``Nine - fine!``

Until, until, until....a loud voice rings out...

Until

``Stop, Dr. Gill!``

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#419 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:43:44 pm

#418 (add-on)

...while u-no-hu keeps looking in vain everywhere for something solid and hard that fell out of her nose!

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#418 Posted by bjkumar on May 4, 2007 9:39:43 pm

Pin-drop silence descends over the chowk crowds as Echoboom and Urstruly climax together to the seductive music of celestial harps while pondering the larger meanings of life!

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#417 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 9:03:16 pm
Re: # 415

There are every kind of websites. There are websites where you could find list of ex-Muslims telling why they left Islam and so have come to light. etc. etc.
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#416 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 8:57:47 pm
# 406 Urstruely

Well ... if British Crown was afraid of concept of Imam Mehdi because of experience in Sudan,,, then logically Britain should have opposed or resisted any emergence of Imam Mehdi in Sub-Continent. A proven ``violent`` type movement cannot be anticipated to be ``peaceful`` and ``loyal`` just because of the type of personality who launched the movement.

And yes,,, Mirza was getting good name in the circle of Indian Muslim ulemas before his claims of being Imam Mehdi and like things. He not only debated with Christians, but he debated with Hindus as well. It was the time when Arya Smaj movement was at its peak in India. Mirza`s one of the first books was intended against Arya smaj. And the same book had made him popular among the circle of ulema.



# 384 Zeemax

With reference to the copy of page of letter which Mirza wrote to Queen Victoria, you presented.

As far I remember, Mirza actually had invited Queen Victoria to embrase Islam as well as join his Jamaat Ahmedia. You have presented only one page of that letter. Use of such faithful words could be a part of diplomacy as well. When a common person writes letter to the ruler of country,,, obviously he has to show his aajzi and inkisaari. And then gradually have to come to real point.

@ Sattar

Please try to confirm my point. Try to arrange this letter and read in full. Please tell did Mirza really invite Queen Victoria to embrase Islam and join Ahmediyat or not ... with proof.

Regards!
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#415 Posted by echoboom on May 4, 2007 3:54:27 pm


WHY THEY LEFT THE JAMAAT
    Its all here!

  • WHY THEY LEFT THE JAMAAT

    * Saudah Bagum of Birgingham UK leaves the Jamaat
    * Life after the Cult by Shahid
    * My Journey - From Kufr to Islam
    * Another Ahmadi from London Jamaat Quits
    * Qadiani Lady Embraces Islam in Germany
    * Another Qadiani leader, THE NOTORIOUS TOMBMASTER, from US leaves the Jamaat and embraces Bahaism
    * Statement of THE TOMBMASTER
    * Statement of Muzaffar Ahmad denouncing Ahmadiyyat
    * Ahmadi Poet Denounced Ahmadiyyat
    * Ahmadi leader in Italy embraces Islam
    * My Journey - From Illusion to Reality
    * Ahmadi Family in Karachi embraces Islam
    * Shaikh Raheel Ahmad
    o Letter of Shaikh Raheel Ahmad to Mirza Masroor, Head of Jamaat Ahmadiyya
    o Qadiani Leader in Germany embraces Islam Report from Daily Ummat
    o Shaikh Raheal`s Message to Qadianis
    o Shaikh Raheal`s Interview
    o Shaikh Raheal`s Message to Khatme Nabuwwat Conference
    o Interview of Press Secretary of Jamaat Ahmadiyya
    o Open Letter of Shaikh Raheal Ahmad to Mirza Masroor
    o Another Open Letter of Sh Raheel Ahmad to Mirza Masroor (Urdu)
    o Breaking News about Shaikh Raheel Ahmad
    o
    * ``I Realise Mirza was no Eisa-look-alike`` by Brig. Ahmad Nawaz Khan
    * National General Secretary of Jamaat Ahmadiyya Hungary left the Jamaat
    * Why I left the Jamaat - by Prof. Munawwer Malik
    * Albanian brother leaves Ahmadiyya Belgium by Rinol
    * Why did I denounce Mirzaiyat? - by Lal Hussein Akhter
    * 714 Qadianis Embrace Islam In Germany
    * Escape From Rabwa by Usman Barry
    * The Bane of Ahmadiyyatby Al-Hafiz B. A. Masri
    * First Companion of Mirza Ghulam leaves the Jamaat
    * Thus I left Mirzaiyat


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#414 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 3:20:51 pm

Urstruly (#410)

“Lacking background” is different from ”contradicting historical facts”.

Khuram’s post neither affirms nor denies the “background” you provided. Your “background” is a mere opinion, which aims to (mis?)characterize the backdrop of issue. It is either irrelevent or incorrect ... and therefore meaningless.

You tried to make a big splash by citing historical contradictions, but have failed to say much beyond that.

Dude, you come across more as a drama-queen (kinda like zeena - grin).

Moving on

In post #377, I gave reasons for my view that Issa and Imam Mahdi are the same person (under the heading Issa and Imam Mahdi). Mere insistence from you does not cut it.

You agree that prior to his claims, Mirza Sahib was considered a respected man by all.

Note that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too was a much respected man in Mecca … prior to his claims of prophethood. However, he was much abused and reviled once he claimed to be a prophet of Allah. Same is the case with Mirza Sahib.

More you denounce Mirza Sahib, more your behavior matches that of kuffar of Mecca. Quran attests to such behavior pattern of disbelievers against Allah’s prophets.

If Mirza Sahib has claimed to be a Mahdi only, you’d insist on seeing Issa. But where would this Issa come from? From the skies? I don’t think so. You’d then insist on seeing a one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. There is no end to this insanity and your expectations.

In short, problem lies not with claims of Mirza Sahib, but with your incorrect expectations.

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#413 Posted by Folio on May 4, 2007 2:42:11 pm
#412 by Folio on May 4, 2007 2:26pm PT
Punjab was not the hodbed of resistence to British rule, then why they needed a stooge in the form of Mirza Ghulan Ahmed? If at all they needed, they`d have needed one in UP and Delhi. Mirza didnt preach in UP.

Even the Pak movement was spearheaded by UP (Aligarhites) Muslims. When did Muslim Paunjabis become politically aware and active (collectively)? Political resistence is alien to them. Wasnt it? For an evidence we shud see the post-47 history of Pakistan. They are very good stooges to powers-that-be. Eg. leaders working for Musharraf.
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#412 Posted by Folio on May 4, 2007 2:26:12 pm
Punjab was not the hodbed of resistence to British rule, then why they needed a stooge in the form of Mirza Ghulan Ahmed? If at all they needed, they`d have needed one in UP and Delhi. Mirza didnt preach in UP.

Even the Pak movement was spearheaded by UP (Aligarhites) Muslims. When did Muslim Paunjabis became politically aware and active (collectively)? Political resistence is alien to them. Wasnt it? For an evidence we shud see the post-47 history of Pakistan. They are very good stooges to powers-that-be. Eg. leaders working for Musharraf.

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#411 Posted by echoboom on May 4, 2007 12:37:40 pm
Urstruly:
Those were the wages of the sins of our forefathers. And we suffer them to this day with out realizing that longer we have those shackles and chains of mental slavery around our necks the more miserable we would become.


Well said



MiTTee kee muhabbat meiN, hUm aashuftaa saroaN neiN
voh Qarz chuukaa-eN haiN, jo vaajib bhee naheeN thhay


tr:
In our love for the earthly-dust, we the crazy headstrong ones
have been paying off the debts, which were not even legit.

iftikhar arif


Beware of the Raushan-khayals & moderates...the westoxicated scum.

Oh How the Munafiquoon Musharraf has turned Raushan-khayal into a four-letter word.
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#410 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 12:28:39 pm
Re: # 406

Khurram`s comment lacked the basic background of the ``emergence` of Mirza Sahib as the Mahdi, Issa, and miscelleneous. The missing fact is that that at that time british Empire was facing a formidable challenge in Africa at the hands of Mohammad Ahmad Mahdi Sudani, who organized a global Jihad against British Empire in Sudan. He proclaimed himself as the promised Mahdi and organized an army of Jihadists that decimated British in Sudan. Unfortunately, Sudani died (a natural death) soon after he had established Mumlikat-e-Islamia. After his death british re-occupied Sudan with the help of enlightened moderate Egyptians. But the Empire learned a lesson in ideological strength of Islam and especially the concept of promised Massiah in it. In order to close this ``Messiah`` chapter forever, British promoted Mirza sahib who was very well versed in not only Islam but also Christianity as well. British needed a pacifist ``Messiah`` who would not challenge their authority anywhere and yet keep the general Muslim population under control. Mirza Sahib had all those qualities. Don`t forget that before he proclaimed his ``Prophethood` (and other innanities) he was the rising star in the religious circles of India because of his aggressive style with which he used to counter Christian Missionaries in the debates (munazras). But when he switched sides he became even more aggressive to prove his loyalty to his new masters. Not only did he proclaimed to be the Mahdi but Jesus Reincarnate (Masih Mo`ood) as well. He should have chosen to be one of them, criminy! because according to the Prophecies Mahdi and Masih are two different personalities.
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#409 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 11:47:01 am
Re: # 393

Yes of course Punjabis might have ``accepted`` British as a lesser of two evils. But the point is that they ``accepted``.

Your rest of analysis relates to later periods. I agree to it however.
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#408 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 11:36:59 am
Re: # 404


Yes because Mutazillah ideology was philosophical type and was bit difficult for general public to comprehend and adopt. Actually Sir Syed had written some letters which are the proofs that he was trying to collect necessary information about the basic points of Mutazzillah faith. In one of the letters, he writes that only Mutazillah`s points were worthy of merit for his task.
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#407 Posted by dost_mittar on May 4, 2007 11:18:18 am
Urstruly#402:

Yes, it is the same song. No wonder it was popular in Lyallpur during my childhood.
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#406 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 11:17:53 am

khuram (#392),

This is correct from what I also know. This is also in accord with the hadith that Issa will break the cross … meaning that he will convincingly refute the fundamental Christian doctrine (just wanted to rub this in onto our ullema here – grin).

+++

Urstruly (#401),

I remain unclear regarding your claim that … ”khuram’s argument is good but it contradicts historical facts”.

In #392 khuram discussed debates between Mirza Sahib and Christians. How does your post #401 negate it?

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#405 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 10:50:59 am
#401 by Urstruly,

Excellent post. Thanks.

Those were the wages of the sins of our forefathers. And we suffer them to this day with out realizing that longer we have those shackles and chains of mental slavery around our necks the more miserable we would become.

Indeed. So we must not compound the sins of our forefathers. Enough has been enough I guess .. and the caravan moves on ... :)
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#404 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 10:45:59 am
#397 by khuram.

Khuram, you have brought out an interesting correlation of Syed Ahmed with the Mutazillah faith which didn`t survive long. But have you taken into account why?

It was because Mutazillah was an elitist faith, limited to the ruling class of the time, professing that Qura`an had descended but was not eternal. And they sought to attach interpretations to it. That was its downfall alongwith the entire Abbasid dynasty.

Does anyone think anything has changed now?

Regards.
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#403 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 10:23:04 am

khuram (#385, 391),

Good write up. It is easy to quote something without the context. And in most cases, context makes all the difference … for example, whether Quran is asking to kill disbelievers or to kill disbelievers who are actively engaged in violent hostilities against Muslim community (from Surah-e-Taubah, I think)

From what I also know, pre-British Sikh rule in places in Punjab was quite brutal towards Muslims. In some places Muslims were not even allowed to give azaan.

When the British took over, Muslims gained freedom to freely practice Islam. This struck out the need for fighting jihad against the British. Addressing social, economic grievances against the British was a different issue, which did not require fighting jihad.

It seems several Muslim leaders were content with British government’s stance on religious issues, alhough some ullema wanted to wage fighting jihad. There were perhaps on-going discussions along these lines with not much consensus.

Yes, Mirza Sahib did participate in open discussions against Christian clergy. He also wrote books and pamphlets in order to highlight superiority and completeness of Islam. He was indeed considered a champion of Islam by Muslims (perhaps non-Muslims too). It was his claims of prophethood that turned ullema against him.

Heck, once even Urstruly agreed on Mirza Sahib’s services to cause of Islam!!


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#402 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 9:51:58 am
Re: # 398 Dost

To the best of my knowledge based mostly on childhood stories told to me by my grandmother, jagga was a Muslim, but I cannot say for sure. My grandmother was from Lyallpur Jhang area, which was the traditional Jagga terrotory. In those stories Jagga used to kill oppressive angraiz and his toutes and helped poor and helpless. The name Jagga has now gained notoriety because of its association with extrotion and racketeering which is usually referred to as Jagga tax. A variant ``Jaggi`` is a popular nickname in rural areas of Punjab.

Here is a modern version of a tribute to Jagga. May God bless his soul regardless of whether he was a Muslim or not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha6AwUYEwtE
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#401 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 9:36:52 am
Khuram and Zeemax

Re: # 392

Khurram`s argument is good but it contradicts the historical facts. The truth of the matter is that about 50 years before the war of independence in 1857 there was a sort of invasion of Christian evangelist missionaries in the subcontinent. They did have some success in southern coastal parts of India which were essentially Portuguese and French occupations and hence mostly Catholic conversions. The British started from Bengal (a Muslim dominant region and had control of most of Northern India (mostly Hindu dominated). They were not successful in conversions as compared to their Portuguese & French counterparts. But close to about 15 years near 1857 they became very aggressive as British had gained decisive control over Delhi and the Emperor.

At this stage they started challenging Muslims to the debates (Munazras) with a cheering crowd of Hindus. As the tradition continues to this day those debates were usually just insults hurled at Islam and Holy prophet (pbuh). A missionary wrote sometime in early 19th century with utter disappointment that 200 years of their presence in Hindustan and they could not convert more than 500 Muslims.

But British missionaries - even though the East India Company, was enjoying complete cooperation of Hindu business class who had complete control over Muslim nobility finance and accounting - did not spare Hindus either. A Hindu living under Muslim rule for 1000 years never suffered such aggressive invasion on his religion before. This created resentment in both Hindus and Muslims alike and erupted into the First War of Independence in 1857. Syed Ahmad Khan in his Asbaab-e-Baghawat-e-Hind has pointed out to the core reason of ``mutiny`` to the fact that missionaries were attacking local religions. East India Company, as a business concern raised the issue with British government and later passed a parliamentary act in 1869, based on the recommendations of people like Sir Syed and local British, and abolished the state sponsorship of propagation of Christianity.

But between 1857 and 1869, the era was really bad for Muslims. When British took over, they nationalized all schools, colleges and universities. These institutions throughout the history of Muslims were funded by private donations and income from trusted properties. They were never owned by any government. British not only nationalized them but confiscated their trusted property as well. Tens of thousands of institutions across the land withered and closed and only those survived which were the nationalized ones.

At that time Christian missionaries became very aggressive against Muslims and most of their Munazras were now held in the public school grounds where they insulted Islam and Prophet with no holds barred. The Muslim ulemma first try to engage them in those debates but then soon realized that the purpose of those debates was not an exchange of dialogue but it was one sided attack on Muslim faith with pot shots just like it happens today. So Ulemma advised Muslims to keep their kids away from those schools. It was a double edged sword from Muslims - damned if you do and damned if you don`t. In those 10 years a whole generation of Muslims fell victim to the merciless military, political, and ideological aggression of British imperialism.

So if we give Sir Syed the benefit of doubt, the Muslims really did not have a choice. Had Sir Syed not done it, some other Muslim would have. Those were the wages of the sins of our forefathers. And we suffer them to this day with out realizing that longer we have those shackles and chains of mental slavery around our necks the more miserable we would become. Iqbal has captured those debates of Mehdi, Issa (pbuh), and resurrection in these immortal words:

Quomon ki hayat unkay takhayyul pay hai moqoof
Yeh zouq Sikhata hai adab murgh-e-cahman ko

Majzoob-e-Farangi nay ba-andaaz-e- farangi
Mehdi kay takhayyul say kiya zinda watan ko

Ay tu kai jo Mehdi kay takhayyul say hai bey zaar
Nomeed na kar ahu-e-mushkeen say khatan ko

Ho zinda kufan posh to murda ussay samjhein
ya chak karein mardak-e-nadaan kay kufan ko
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#400 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 9:31:43 am

khuram (#382),

Excellent post! Your point about various dimensions of Quranic teachings is right on. Different circumstances require different traits. These may include compassion, firmness, violence, and so on. Abolishing any one trait can lead to a crisis when it is direly needed.

Despite what ullema say about Ahmadis … truth is that Ahamdi-Muslims are not against fighting jihad. Our position has always been that Quran outlines conditions required for fighting jihad. If these conditions are not met, fighting jihad is not called for.

You may want to recommend “Philosophy of teachings of Islam” to Urstruly and zeemax. They won’t accept it from me, but you stand a better chance …

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#399 Posted by sattar2 on May 4, 2007 9:20:45 am

teshah (#380),

If I am not mistaken, mainstream Muslim view is that both nabi (prophet) and rasool (messenger) are recipients of divine revelation, with divine missions to reform people. And that rasool necessarily brings new shairah, but nabi does not. This suggests that every rasool is a nabi, but not every nabi is a rasool.

Ahmadi-Muslim view is that rasool and nabi are somewhat interchangeable terms. These two terms emphasize two different aspects of the same position: one aspect relates to receiving divine message (“risalaat” meaning message, suggesting reception of message) and the other to convey divine messages to people (“nubuwah” meaning conveying of a message).

Perhaps it is for this reason that when Quran uses both terms together for a divine reformer, it lists the term rasool first, followed by the term nabi. That is, this reformer first receives divine message and then conveys it to others.

As for claimants of risalat, I guess they can claim to be Muslims! More power to them. But now that you have mentioned it, Urstruly may start losing sleep over the issue … I guess he can never be satisfied … !!!

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#398 Posted by dost_mittar on May 4, 2007 9:01:24 am
echoboom@395:

That was hilarious. But even I , a thet Punjabi, could not understand their inglish.

urstruly#389:

Jugga is an unusual name for a Muslim. I always presumed he was a Sikh. A popular song during our childhood was:

Jugga jamya te milan vadhaayian
vada ho kay daake maarda
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#397 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 8:40:16 am
Re: # 387 Zeemax

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?



Sir Syed was a part of Nobel class of Indian Muslims. He was concerned that Muslim Nobel class would not be able to compete with more educated Hindus in getting of superior government jobs under the British rule. The only solution was to launch a dedicated education spreading movement among Indian Muslims. But Indian Muslims despised western education because of religious beliefs. So first of all Sir Syed had to make-up Muslim mind for the adoptation of western education. That was the time of complete darkness of illeteracy and ignorance. Muslims were unaware of basic teachings of Islam as well and had been trapped into ignorant type superstitious beliefs like ancient prophets were many thousand feet tall etc. etc. Sir Syed had realized the poor and backward state of Muslim beliefs. Western thought of that time was dominated by Rationalism. Sir Syed realized the need of interpreting Islamic beliefs on rational footings. In the glorious period of early Muslim rule (i.e. early period of Abbasid Caliphate), a well known early Muslim sect ``Al-Mutazillah`` already had attempted to perform the task of interpreting Islamic beliefs on rational footings. The importance of that early sect can be realized by the fact that the first ever Rational Muslim Philosopher i.e. Yaqoob Alkindi belonged to Mutazillah faith. Later giant Muslim Philosophers like Al-Farabi and Ibn-e-Sina just had extended the views of Alkindi into further depths. That sect however could not survive for long and their works were also destroyed by the later dominent sects.

Sir Syed had got inspirations from that early sect. Some fragments of scattered work of that early sect could be made available. So Sir Syed undertook the heavy task of interpreting Islamic beliefs on strong rational footings in this way. Another early Shia sect ``Batania`` also influenced the thought of Sir Syed . Perhaps Sir Syed learned allegorical type interpretations of Islamic beliefs from ``Batania`` sect. Basic idea of Sir Syed was that Quran is the Word of God and functioning of Physical world is the Act of God. According to him, there could be no contradiction between Word of God and Act of God. In this way, Sir Syed gave `allegorical` meanings to all those things of Islamic belief system which could not be seen in the Physical world. For example, he allegorically interpreted the existence of angels, paradize and hell. On similar lines, he also denied the physical meanings of miracles of Prophets as well as denied the physical meanings of Hazrat Issa (RA) being alive in heavens. He took allegorical meanings of all these things. In this way, he tried to rationalize Islamic belief system. He could not complete this task. Secondly his work did not affect the orthodox momentum of Islamic beliefs.

About Allama Iqbal:

Allama Iqbal was concerned with the over-all backwardness of Muslim Nation as compared with Western Nations. Allama Iqbal`s time context was different from Mirza Qadiani and Sir Syed. Some Muslim Scholars like Syed Ameer Ali and Maulana Shibli Naumani etc. already had adopted some psychological ``escape`` strategies. Instead of facing the challenges of real world, they started finding charms in the false pride of past glory of Muslims. Allama Iqbal used same strategy with a positive mission i.e. with the view to give some confidence to Muslim Nation. Through his beutiful poetry, Allama Iqbal projected the past glory of Muslims and tried to invoke new spirit (Zinda Tamanna) in a dead nation. Allama Iqbal made the nation more ``emotional`` rather than making ``rational``.

Allama Iqbal also was deeply influenced by the popular Western Philosophies of his time like he was inspired by such Philosophers as Rausseau, Bergson, Fitche, Loyed Magon, Prof. Alexander and Nietzsche etc. etc. Allama Iqbal`s philosophical views are dominated by these philosophies. His ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam`` is an attempt to show that either above type of philosophies were already a part of Islamic ideology or that Islamic beliefs could be modernized on these lines.

Regards!
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#396 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 7:57:18 am
#392 by khuram,

This post is quite confusing. You say:

In those days missioneries used to argue ... Jesus was superior to Prophet of Islam. ... it was Mirza alone who fought this argument of missioneries. ... Mirza had various ``manazras`` with Christien Bishops ... and he e... broke the basic argument of Christian missioneries.

But to what purpose? Christian missionaries were not converting Muslims. All they were doing was converting harijans. Why go to all this trouble of Manazaras and all?

My questions is simply that, what is Mirza`s essential teaching different from Islam other than claiming to be the second coming of Christ and expunging Jihad for his followers?

Syed Ahmed did the same thing, but he thought better not to invent a new religion to do that but found a noble means of education to achieve his ends which was not easy to reject.

However, it was precisely that Syed Ahmed whose designs resulted in the Urdu Medium/ English Medium divide, and exclusion of the vastly major bulk of the population from integrating into a single mainstream identity, with catastrophic results which you see now.

There are two Pakistans, not one. One Pakistan is which the English educated think they own because its they who get all jobs and opportunities; while the other is which obviously many on this site know nothing about. That is the Urdu-medium and Madrassa educated Pakistan.

Regards
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#395 Posted by echoboom on May 4, 2007 7:52:21 am
Paindoo-Productions kee fakhria paishkush:

Basheera-in-traable

first Panjabi film in english language.

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#394 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 7:33:04 am
#389 by Urstruly,

There was one Siddiq `Bam Baz` too in androon Lahore. Though I can`t find any references on him on the net.
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#393 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 6:56:45 am

Re: # 391

I think I do not agree with you on the use of the word ``welcome``, since Punjab in general and Punjabi religious leadership in particular had a very strong anti-British sentiment since the time of Jihad of Syed Ahmad Shaheed and Shah Ismail Shaheed against sikhs and their efforts to unite Muslims against the impending evil of both sikhs and British. We can say that Muslim Punjab accepted British as a lesser of two evils.

However, the British occupation had a profound effect on the lower strata of society since British established the very first time in the history of Punjab the Feudal Lord system aka Jagirdari Nizam as compared to the tribal or clan system that existed for centuries. These Jagirdars were responsible for collecting taxes and revenue and to provide horses and men to their British masters. Too often these Jagirdars used food as a tool for controlling masses. Punjab, the food basket of sub-continent, suffered twice from femine during two world wars. These famines were man made to force Punjabi men to serve in British army to fight the wars for british empire. Those femines and wars devestated the psyche of Punjab when general populace wanted to see British defeated and humiliated on one hand but on the other hand they had concern for the safety of their men at the warfront. That is the reason most of the punjabi folk poetry of near past is all about the `beloved`, `dhola`, and `mahiya` who is away from home and his lover yearns for his return. This has turned Punjabi psyche into a schizophrenic one even in present times when people do want to see rule of law, democracy, and good governance in the country but they do not want to see their military defeated and humilitated either. The fuaji dictatorship knows this very well and exploits it to the fullest.
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#392 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 6:50:12 am
Re: # 388

We are not any mature nation because we are just unable to see things in clear black and white.

Mirzai`s basic beliefs clearly go against basic beliefs of Gora Sahib. Gora sahib has the belief that Jesus died on cross, then became alive on third day and then went to heavens. In those days missioneries used to argue that since Jesus was alive in heavens and Prophet of Islam was burried in grave ... so Jesus was superior to Prophet of Islam. In such crucial time, it was Mirza alone who fought this argument of missioneries. He came up with a different reply that Jesus also died and is burried in a grave. Mirza had various ``manazras`` with Christien Bishops as well ... and he effectively broke the basic argument of Christian missioneries.

Mirza did have a solid role in his time. He had somewhat contribution of saving Islam from the hands of christian missioneries. Yes he was loyal to British government. But many other Punjabi ulemas were also loyal to British government.

Regards!

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#391 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 6:28:54 am
Re: # 389

Yes I used wrong word ``all``. Obviously my statement could not come up to ``falsification principle``. As a matter of fact, generally and on the whole, British government proved to be a blessing for Punjabi Muslims. Punjabi Muslims had no freedom of religious practices under the rule of Sikhs. Many mosques had been converted to stables in that period. British government was a blessing for Punjabi Muslims in religious sense also because British government gave full religious freedom to people. In fact, with the emergence of printing and publishing facilities in those times,,, ulemas of this region had found great oppertunity of spreading their religious views among people. These facilities were missing in Sikh Raj.
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#390 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 6:07:12 am

I should have phrased my post a little better. The people listed in my post were fighting their own separate wars with British. So there were more than one armed ressitances.
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#389 Posted by Urstruly on May 4, 2007 6:01:49 am
Re: # 385
``All the Punjabi Muslims had welcomed British Raj in the province.``
This is not true. Speaking of Punjabi Muslims alone, there was armed ressistance from such freedom fighters as Roy Ahmad Khan Kharl, Barkat Majaithia, Nizam Lohaar, and couple others who started a gorrila warfare against British after the collapse of Sikha Shahi. There are some others who were called ``decoits`` and ``thugs`` by British such as Jugga Daakoo, who was in fact the Punjabi Robin Hood and has become a part of our folklore.
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#388 Posted by Zeena on May 4, 2007 5:34:27 am
#384 zeemax
Oh, now I got it....so this whole drama or saga of mirzaism was based on to please gora sahib to get to cash his religious card and to divide and rule among Muslims.........

This is scary......or my be this whole mirzaism was a conspiracy of goras against Muslims .......
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#387 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 3:10:36 am
#385 by khuram,

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?

Regards
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#386 Posted by zeemax on May 4, 2007 3:06:12 am
#385 by khuram,

I consider Syed Ahmed Khan no better than Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Your point re context of time is taken. How would you evaluate Iqbal in the context of his time?

Regards
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#385 Posted by khuram on May 4, 2007 1:47:35 am
Zeemax

We are prone to commit a common mistake while studying or evaluating history. We mistakenly tend to evaluate historical events in the light of our present day political and cultural environment.

Have you read Sir Syed Ahmed Khan`s ``Risala Asbab-e-Baghawat-e-Hind...???

I have read it. If you will read it, you will get very bad impression of Sir Syed because you will find him a perfect slave of British government who considers British people and western culture as superior to local people and culture. You know k Sir Syed ne British Sarkar ki apni jaan per khail ker Khidmet ki thi...??? He personally had saved lives of many British people during 1857 revolt by putting his own life in dangers.

Do you know that about all the Muslim Ulema from Punjab Province were generally very happy with the British government...???

If you do not know, then I tell you its reason. Before British Raj, Punjab province was under the control of Sikh rulers. Punjabi Muslims were suffering in the hands of Sikh rulers. Punjab was overtaken by Britishers in 1849. All the Punjabi Muslims had welcomed British Raj in the province. Because they had got freedom from the cruelties of Sikhs.

Hum log aaj 2007 main British k khilaf barrkein mar saktein hain. Do you know k 1857 k baad even founders of Deoband Madrasah had stopped talking about Jihad...??? Even though they had participated in 1857 war...!!! Deoband k baani ulema barre shageir main iss liye reh rahe thay kiyunke they had availed the ``aam maafi`` of British government.

Do you know k 1906 main Muslim League ki establishment ka purpose kia tha...??? Do you not know k purpose tha k Muslims ko British government ka faithful show kia jaye aur political benefits liye jayein.

Zeemax,, do you know k not only Muslims of Sub-Continent but actually almost all the Asian Nations had fallen so badly in the Colonial era that they had accepted White Man as something superior being to Asian People...???

Asian people could manage to come out of the trance of such deep inferiority complex first time in 1906 when Japanese Army defeated Russian Army. It was for the first time when Asian people got somewhat confidence. Asian people had got REAL confidence in second world war when at a stage Japan was defeating the alliance armies and Japan had liberated many Asian countries from British rule.

Even before this time,,, people of India could not think of trying to get freedom from British. Before second world war, Indian people (including Hindus and Muslims) were satisfied with living under British supervision and with somewhat limited autonomy. Before second world war, the issue was just how much seats for Hindus and how much for Muslims in the legislative assembelies.

But it was during second world war when Indian people got as much confidence to launch such movements as ``Quit India`` ... and Muslims came up with Pakistan Resolution.

Anyways, try to be able to see things in their original context. Pay thanks to the courage of Japanese people who gave you necessary confidence and you came out of a very deep rooted inferiority complex.

Mirza was a person of that time. Evaluate him in the context of that time.

If you evaluate Muhammad Ali Jinnah in the context of 1916, you will consider him right in his struggles for Hindu Muslim Unity.

If you evaluate him in the context of 1940, you will consider him right in his struggle for Hindu Muslim separation.

Learn to evaluate history in its original context. If you were the part of post 1857 context,,, you would be more rational if you accepted the superiority of British people. Sir Syed was a rationalist. Do you know...???

Regards!
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#384 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 11:48:37 pm
#381 by Zeena,

Read this letter he wrote to Queen Victoria and you`ll be further enlightened:



Above is the ONLY reason he was propped up by the British as a fifth columnist, and despite the pacifist feelings of Khuram, the ONLY difference in interpretation of Quranic teachings he came up with (i.e. other than being Issa etc) which even sattar2 has failed to mention in his #377.
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#383 Posted by khuram on May 3, 2007 11:32:29 pm
Want to add one thing. Another very good explanation or interpretation of Islamic system of Ikhlaq can be found in Wasif Ali Wasif.

Regards!
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#382 Posted by khuram on May 3, 2007 10:38:04 pm
So discussion turns on to be secterian. This is great misfortune with Muslims that they prefer calling other sects as ``Non-Muslims`` than realizing the real threats imposed on to them. This article where we are interacting is intended against religion as a whole. But we are discussing here that this or that person has no right to call himself a Muslim, even though he argues from Quran and Hadith.

For me, Ahmediah issue is the case of difference in interpretations of Quran and Hadith. No one is real authority on Quran and Hadith and only Allah knows the true meanings of Quran and Hadith. We humans have no right to consider only our interpretation to be perfectly true.

Quranic teachings have many dimensions. No one can understand all the dimensions. Some people will understand some few things like jihad etc. and they shall keep their focus only on these things. Some other people shall understand more tolerant teachings of Islam,, and so they shall emphasize only on those things. Some other people only shall understand the importance of offering prayers and so they shall only keep themselves busy in offering of prayers. Some other people shall understand only the Haqooq-ul-Ibad portion of Quranic teachings and so they shall devote their lives for humaniterian cause.

A balanced society needs all these types of people. For example, if you exclude jihad type people from society, soon the whole society shall become a stupid coward. And similarly if you exclude humaniterian type people, the whole society could become a jungle. If you exclude ibadat guzar people (who may not be good in Haqood-ul-Ibad),,,, soon the survival of religion could be in threats.

Similarly a progressing socioety may need ``Imam Mehdies`` also from time to time. If Islamic history is full of Imam Mehdies, then factor of Divine Will behind it cannot be overlooked. With the passage of time, whole society may fall in confusions and mis-understandings. Islam has provided its solution in the form of ``Mujadads`` and even ``Imam Mehdies``.

I have read Mirza Ghulam Ahmed`s book ``Islami Usool Ki Phoilosophy``... This is an excellent book. I have not seen any better explanation of Islamic system of Ikhlaq anywhere else so far.

I have no right to consider Ahmedies as non-Muslims. They may really be non-Muslims. but I have no concern. Sometimes non-Muslims also can teach Islam,,, better than Muslims.

Muslims should learn to pay some respect to other religious personalities as well.

Regards!
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#381 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 8:32:02 pm
echoboom jii

Yes, I read your link...and I am surprised why Mr.Mirza Ahmed claimed to be messiah?
or some prophet....the man must be completely out of his mind......

This guy wished to change the whole concept of Quran with wrong interpretations rather convoluted and still had the nerves to call himself Muslim....

My objection for Mr. Mirza is only one....

I do not care, if, he got this delusion of being messiah or prophet or whatever......I do not care whatever his disciples practice.......that is non of my business...

But, I have serious concerns when they call themselves Muslims.............

Why they persistently wish to be called Muslim Mirzaii? Why are they so desperate to be called Muslim Mirzaii while they have made themselves very clear that they do not accept Quran and the teachings of our LAST PROPHET(pbuh) AND THEY HAVE CHANGED THE WHOLE CONCEPT.......

This is so stupid and hypocrite......

They should struggle to get their recognition separatley, as a separate cult or group of some followers of their peophet, MR.Mirza...separate than Islam....They shouldn`t be using Islamic crutches for their own delusions.......

Either you are Muslim or not.........there is no third way......

They will be accepted more open heartedly as Non Muslims............
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#380 Posted by teshah on May 3, 2007 8:27:44 pm
Re: # 377

Sattar

I have a question about the concept of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen.

An advocate in Attock city, Aein Faatimi, claimed to be a `Rasool` (messenger) which appointment he considered to be superior than `Nabi` (prophet) and also technically quite valid as, according to him, no ban existed against it in the form of `Khatmul Mursalleen` like the one imposed on the `Nabuwwat` by the Khatmi Mullah . He was later murdered by some unknown assailants, probably for his said claim.

Btw, why not Ahmadies advance the same argument in their debate on the technical question of whether God has stopped sending any one for guidance of human beings?
I think it is because perhaps He got totally disappointed with them. But who can tell us this now, all communication with God having been broken by the Mullah who has come to occupy His place as demigods?

In fact despite this khatmiism lot of people have been claiming to be sent by God as prophets, etc., and there are some followers of them also. How should we treat them when there is no mention of them in any constitution, etc., except Ahmadies. Surprisingly, `Fatwa` against them (Ahmadies) stands even when the Constitution of Pakistan remains suspended or abrogated.

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#379 Posted by sattar2 on May 3, 2007 4:07:50 pm

echo,

You give Ahmadis too much credit.
Paranoia is just one more service we offer (grin) …

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#378 Posted by echoboom on May 3, 2007 3:42:00 pm

THE BAATIL SECT

by Dr Rashid (UAE)

Ahmadiyya Movement is following in the footsteps of Christian Missionaries and is engaged in actively misguiding ignorant unsuspecting Muslims into their fold by pretending to be Sunni Muslims and Champions of Islam.

Their tactics include setting up centres, clinics, schools, publishing weekly/monthly literature in upto 120 languages, publishing distorted translations of Holy Quran in various languages. They have 24 hour TV broadcasts by the name of MTA via Global Beam, costing around U$75000 per day. In addition they have daily Radio broadcasts in several languages from various bands.

Question is who is paying for such enormous propaganda campaign? Qadianis/Ahmadis would have us believe that it is their donations, but one would be very naive to believe that. However this issue can be easily understood when one looks at this movement in historical
perspective.

In 19th Century, British usurped the power from the Muslims when they landed in India.As a result they faced repeated Movements of Jihad from the Muslim quarters. In 1868 a Parliamentary Commission of Enquiry came to India, consisting of MPs, Journalists and Church Officials, to find a solution of this spirit of Jihad. They submitted their report in 1870 to the British Parliament, entitled `THE ARRIVAL OF BRITISH EMPIRE IN INDIA`. In this report they recommended that the mentality of Muslims is such that if they accept someone as their religious leader then they follow him blindly. If someone can be found who claim to be an apostolic prophet then the target can be achieved, since Muslims are waiting for the coming of a Messiah and Mahdi. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was chosen for the task for his ancestral links with the British Raj.

Mirza Ghulam launched himself as a Rejuvenator of Islam and a servant of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). Soon some followers gathered around him, consisting some of the Government employees who wanted to please the Raj. However some of these followers sincerely believed in Mirza`s claims of being a servant of Islam. He formed Ahmadiyya Movement in 1890. Soon Mirza claimed to be Messiah, Imam Mahdi and a prophet in his own right. Servant became the Master! In this capacity he abrogated Jihad.

Despite protests from Muslims, Mirza and his movement flourished under the benevolent of the British Raj. Muslims could do little to contain this heretical doctrine that was being grafted into the body of Islam. Mirza died in 1908 while Ahmadiyya Movement continue to enjoy support from the Colonial Masters, who utilised their services as Spies in various Muslim countries during the 1st and 2nd World Wars.

With the Independence of Pakistan, Ahmadiyya Movement regained new life under the patronage of Sir Zafarullah Khan, the 1st Foreign Minister of this newly founded country.
Taking advantage of the chaotic situations, he filled the Civil, Foreign, Judicial and
Military Services with Qadiani followers. Every Pakistan Foreign Post in various parts of
the world effectively served as a Qadiani base and at the expense of Government of
Pakistan, missionary centres were established in different countries. Rapid promotions
were given to those who converted to Qadianism or were Qadiani sympathisers. This resulted
in serious uprising by the Muslims in early 1950s which was brutally crushed by the police
and army, imposing Martial Law in parts of Punjab.Government wanted to remove Sir
Zafarullah Khan but USA threatened to stopped the supply of grain to this new Islamic
Republic in its infancy!

However the first serious blow came to this Movement when Islamic Scholars of 124 countries met under the auspices of Rabita Alam Islam (Muslim World League) in Makkah and declared Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his followers as apostates and out of the fold of Islam.
Soon Pakistani Parliament by a unanimous vote passed a Constitutional Amendment declaring Qadianis as a non-Muslim minority. Thus the fate of this Jama`at was sealed for ever.
However by that time they were well entrenched in various parts of Africa and West. In the
name of Persecution on religious grounds, they started getting immigration/asylum in
various countries.

With the fall of Communism and break down of Russia, West suddenly realised that the threat of Islamic revival in much more dangerous than communism ever was. Reports that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the Western Hemisphere are disturbing indeed for them. Various strategies are being adopted to contain this threat of Islam and supporting Ahmadiyya Movement is one such strategy. Making a person Qadiani, is one Muslim less. West knows that and Ahmadiyya Movement Hierarchy knows that too but just as they played the
role of spies in the WW, they are willing to play the role of fifth columnists among the
Muslims, trapping them with their pious fraud in the name of Islam.

Now one can understand the following report: ``BIG SUM TO SPREAD QADIANISM IN
AFRICA`` Some of the Christian Missionaries working in Ethiopia fixed a sum of U$35
million to spread the evil faith of Qadianism. Moreover, these Christian missionaries
printed new versions of the books of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, the Apostate and started
distributing it in the Republic of Ghana, in addition to other publications of the same
faith which have already invaded book shops of the Ghanaian Capital ``Accra.``
(Al-Khaleej Arabic Newspaper date 22-12-1989)

Well protected & cared-for by the Zionists in Israel!

Jama`at Ahmadiyya has special links with the Zionist state. Ahmadiyya Headquarter play
host to the Jewish Dignitaries from Israel. (Khatme Nabuwat Magazine Vol. 9. No. 5, P.8)
Kababeer is town of strategic importance, located on Mount Karmel, overlooking the
Athleeth Harbour and it Naval Base and Ordinance factory on one side and the Haifa Harbour
on the other. 99% population of this town is Palestinian Arab belonging to Qadiani
community. Zionists have known to displace/eliminate Palestinians from areas of much less
importance. The village of Dier Yassin was wiped from the face of earth, killing all its
inhabitants. And yet the same Zionists continue to tolerate Qadianis residence at such an
important place for obvious reasons. Jama`at Ahmadiyya publishes its Arabic propaganda
literature by the name of Al Bushra, from this place for distribution among the Arab
World.
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#377 Posted by sattar2 on May 3, 2007 1:52:48 pm

Khuram (#359),

I am aware of these things. You should minimize ill-thought out assessments; they reflect poorly on you. Here’s a summary, with some details …

Ahmadi-Muslim beliefs

Ahmadi-Muslims believe in Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and Quran as completion of divine law. They offer salat, pay zakat, fast during ramzaan, and perform Hajj. Hence they claim to be Muslims. Moving on to the crux of the issue …

Reappearance of Issa

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold appearance of Issa among Muslims in latter days. Ahmadi-Muslim view is that this prophecy is a metaphor, which suggests appearance of a prophet among Muslims. This prophet will bear spiritual resemblance to Issa-ibne-Marriam.

Resemblance between Issa-ibne-Marriam and this future prophet of Islam

This future prophet would resemble Issa-ibne-Marriam in several ways:

Issa-ibne-Marriam did not bring new law. Rather, his mission was to bring people back to the existing divine Law, that of Moses (that is, Torah). He appeared approx. 1400 years after Moses, among Jews who were occupied by an outside nation, the Romans. At the time of his appearance, Jews, led by their scholars, had become corrupt and strayed away from teachings of Torah.

Similarly, when Issa reappears, his mission will be to bring people back to the existing divine Law, that of Muhammad (that is, Quran). He will appear approx. 1400 years after Muhammad, among Muslims who will be occupied by an outside nation, the British. At the time of his appearance, Muslims, led by their ullema, would have become corrupt and strayed away from teachings of Quran.

There may be more, but this should suffice for now.

Similar metaphor in Bible … and in our daily conversations

Symbolic reference to a future prophet is not new.

In Old Testament we find similar account … where reference is made to future reappearance of Prophet Elijah. Much later Jesus explained that this prophecy was fulfilled in appearance of John The Baptist (Prophet Yahya for Muslims), who had appeared in spirit of Prophet Elijah.

Use of such metaphors is common in our daily language as well. An intelligent person is sometimes called Einstein. Intention is to highlight an attribute that he shares with Albert Einstein, the Relativity dude.

Issa and Imam Mahdi

So Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold appearance of a prophet, who will revive teachings of Quran. He referred to this prophet as Issa-ibne-Marriam.

In some ahadith Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also referred to appearance of Imam Mahdi (the Guided One).

Note that a prophet is also a Mahdi, since he is guided by Allah. Two different titles (Issa-ibne-Marriam and Imam Mahdi) does not necessarily suggest two different persons. They may very well be references to the same person.

A hadith (from Ibne-Maja, I think) sheds some light on this issue. Here Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) suggests that Issa and Mahdi are indeed the same person.

Khatam-un-Nabiyeen

You are conrrect in that Ahmadi-Muslim belief in continuation of prophethood is not entirely new. They believe that divine law has been perfected and completed in Quran, but Allah may raise prophets to guide people as they go astray from teachings of Quran.

Similar views have been expressed by several well-known scholars throughout history of Islam. But I’ll digress for now.

I recently commented briefly on meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen. Following link should suffice for now. 2nd half of the post gets into it …

Click [Khatam-un-Nabiyeen … Understanding Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen … post #364]

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly …

Here I am not claiming that Ahamdis are right, that Mirza Sahib is a prophet, etc. While responding to inquiries, I have made the case that Ahmadi-Muslim views are well-founded and not without merit.

It is inherently unfair for a person to use one yardstick to judge his faith, and another to judge someone else’s faith. Consistency in such standards is worth striving for. Double-standards are likely to lead to delusion, bewilderment, and hypocrisy.

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#376 Posted by Folio on May 3, 2007 12:15:29 pm
Haha mircha laga......PUBHic followers ko.

The true colours of PUBHic philanderer are all over the net. Racism, sex & violence that sums of this bloodthirsty beast. Stupidy is the hallmark. Intolerence is the spirit.

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#375 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 11:52:41 am
#373 zeemax
[[The average Chowk Shamimists` dream ...]]]

LOL....you are hilarious as always........I agree...
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#374 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 11:47:24 am
#359 khuram
Thanks for this post.....I read the post and I will come up with own analysis....

#360 echoboom ji

I will read the whole link about all this confused sect, called mirzaiiism...and then will comment. Thanks for your response. I appreciate that...
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#373 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 11:45:55 am
#371 by Zeena,

Some clowns are always needed to keep things interesting ... like the almost entire chowk.com.

BTW have you noticed the desperation? Gillster is working extra time, so is hamidm, so are all the shamimists, so are all the hindoos, mirzais etc ... because they see the writing on the wall and are trying to keep their maum batti from flickering off .. :)
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#372 Posted by Folio on May 3, 2007 11:35:01 am
If chroniled the life of Muhammed wud stink if not more than that of Mirza Ghulan Ahmed. Religion is abt belief but not for propriety as per 21st century. If done now Muhammed wud have been in jail for this peadophilia.

(these quotes are from religious texts)




Tabari IX:128 ``When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.``

This is how it happened:

Tabari IX:131 ``My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left.

The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.``

Muhammad struggled to justify his behavior.

Bukhari:V9B86N98

``The Prophet said, `A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.` `O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent.` He said, `By remaining silent.```

Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 ``Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, `You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, ``She is yours, so uncover her.`` And behold, it was you.

I would then say to myself, ``If this is from Allah, then it must happen.`````




IF MUHAMMED HAD SEXUAL FANTASIES ABT A CHILD WHY NON MIRZA FOR A BEGUM?

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#371 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 11:34:45 am
#365 zeemax
What the hell ........:@

Why all these crazy people start claiming something new?
They must be out of their mind.
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#370 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 10:09:26 am
#368 by khuram,

There`s a chowkie named `number`. Look in his profile.
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#369 Posted by sattar2 on May 3, 2007 9:59:53 am

Khuram,

Here’s some more on harassment issue:

Quran mentions twice the punishment for Prophet’s wives for their dishonorable conduct. It then mentions twice the reward for them if they are obedient to Allah and His Prophet (Chapter 33, verses 30-31).

Does this amount to harassment as well?
Be consistent in your assessment.
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#368 Posted by khuram on May 3, 2007 9:26:20 am
Re: # 366

I have not understood your point. Anyways, name of that ``popular`` Imam Mehdi was Syed Muhammad Junpoori.
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#367 Posted by sattar2 on May 3, 2007 8:50:07 am

Khuram (#353):

The ”uneducated and less educated Muslims” you refer to … comprises super majority of ullema of this day and age. Sir Syed is reviled by these ullema; people like Gill Sahib are no exception. What does this say about current Muslim leadership? Can we agree that they are indeed uneducated, or less educated, to say the least? Maudoodi is one example that comes to mind. BTW, these are the same ullema who are issuing calls for jihad and suicide bombings.

As for harassment, start with Quran … which harasses non-believers and hypocrites with warnings of great calamities. Do you see the parallel? Why is it OK when Quran says such things, but no OK with an Ahmadi says the same things?

Same applies to plague issue of Punjab. Along similar lines, Quran issued dire warnings: to people of Noah, to people of Lot, to those who opposed Muhammad (pbu them all) and more.

Let’s use the same yardstick, let’s not use double-standards. I hope you see your error here.

More later ...
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#366 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 8:42:16 am
#359 by khuram,

For example a ``popular`` Imam Mehdi emerged in Muslim India in the 14th century AD. He launched a ``fundamentalist`` type movement which is known as ``Mehdawi Movement``.

Yeah. This guy `number` is one. But at-least all he does is post some stupid numerical trivia in iLogs and doesn`t try to argue.
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#365 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 8:21:57 am

Come to think of it ... this guy is really the average Chowk Shamimists` DREAM!

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#364 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 8:19:06 am
#361 by zeemax,

In fact there was still another one named Yusuf Kazzab (liar) something. I saw him in court in I think year 2000 in Lahore. He too had a sizable group supporting him with lots of security and stuff. So there`s no end to these guys. Heard he died in jail a few years ago. :)
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#363 Posted by Urstruly on May 3, 2007 8:18:19 am
The Muslims living in England can be of great help in finding this report from British India Library. The same library lends books and records over the internet, a paid service, but their cataloguing is horrible and most of the material is not scanned yet. I was researching for an article on the the masacre of Muslims during partition and I found it better, and cheaper, to go to England rather find material over the internet.
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#362 Posted by Urstruly on May 3, 2007 8:13:15 am
Re: # 360

Echo - Thanks for the links. God bless you. It would be great service to Muslim cause if an authentic copy of ``Report of Parliamentary Commission `The Arrival of British Empire in India` `` could be found. We can then drive the final nail in the coffin of this nuisance.
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#361 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 8:09:44 am
Zeena,

Khuram is right there have been many claimants to being Mehdi, Issa etc. Following is one more (a recent one) and the picture is proof his face appears on the moon. Not only that, it appears on the Hajr-e-Aswad as well and his organisation lays claim to the stone (though not on the moon I guess).



Only reason why Mr. Gohar Shahi couldn`t rake up as much following as Mirza was because British rule had unfortunately ended by the 1980s and no one to give them jobs.

Enjoy! www.goharshahi.com
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#360 Posted by echoboom on May 3, 2007 7:56:39 am
Zeena:

thanks for asking.

Here , I think this would be sufficient for now. Notice that it is some of the stature of Maulana Abul Hasan Nadvi .

Very informative indeed.!
The second one is just a chronological list.
Qadianism - A Critical Study by Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadvi

Mirza Ghulam Qadiani - his life at a glance
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#359 Posted by khuram on May 3, 2007 6:22:17 am
Ok I try to tell what I know. Neither Sattar knows anything of his religion and nor mind of zeena is free of confusions.

Ahmediyat (or Qadiyaniat or Mirzaiat) is not any new religion. There is mention in Islamic scriptures that an Imam Mehdi shall come in Muslims. It is also mentioned in Islamic scriptures that Hazrat Issa shall again appear among Muslims.

Throughout Islamic history, many individuals have claimed to be that ``Imam Mehdi``. For example a ``popular`` Imam Mehdi emerged in Muslim India in the 14th century AD. He launched a ``fundamentalist`` type movement which is known as ``Mehdawi Movement``. This movement had started in the period of Lodhy Rulers and finally ended in the hands of Islam Shah Suri i.e. son of Sher Shah Suri.

Similarly Mirza Ghulam Ahmed also came up with the claim of being ``Imam Mehdi``. His claim is complicated because he has the claim of being ``Imam Mehdi`` and ``Issa`` who was to appear in Muslams, as well.

In order to legitimize his claim of being both ``Imam Mehdi`` and ``Issa`` at the same time, Mirza Sahib has interpreted Islamic scriptures in a certain way. For example he has interpreted Quranic description about Hazrat Issa in such way as to show that Hazrat Issa died a normal death and the ``Issa`` to be appeared among Muslims has only symbolic meanings.

And since Mirza Sahib has the claim of being ``Issa`` as well,, so he also faced the problem of popular Muslim belief of ``Khatam-e-Nabuwat``. In this connection, Mirza Sahib has interpreted ``Khatam-e-Nabuwat`` in such such way which is different from its popular meanings. But honestly speaking, that interpretation is not whole unique because some other prominent Muslim scholars also have interpreted it in that way.

Anyways, as I said that many individuals have claimed to be ``Imam Mehdi`` in Muslim history and many of them made many followers as well. Mirza, by far is one such ``Imam Mehdi`` who has made greatest number of followers so far, and throughout the world.

Ahmedies actually consider themselves to be true Muslims because in their minds, they believe in the true Imam Mehdi as per the instructions of Islam.

So these are the facts about Ahmediyat. Sattar seems to be ignorant of these things so I cannot say that you ppl can conform these things from him.

Regards!
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#358 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 6:05:29 am
zeemax
Yes, you are right.......we can`t call it a new religion....then what is it?

Well, I guess I have to google through internet....which I hardly have time for...
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#357 Posted by zeemax on May 3, 2007 2:11:42 am
#356 by Zeena,

Dear Zeena, I can`t make head or tail of it either so I`m not the best person to ask. Maybe sattar will tell you its essential teachings if there are any.

Actually calling it a `new religion` is giving a bad name to things like scientology and stuff.

Regards
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#356 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 12:10:34 am
zeemax sahib

Canm you explain the concept of Mirzaii religion? I am still not clear about the whole concept of this new religion.....
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#355 Posted by Zeena on May 3, 2007 12:09:11 am
sattar sahib aka aishaM sahiba

You think that all of us Muslim Pakistanis are wrong and Non Muslim mirzaiis are right.......

Well, this shows where you coming from....extremely prejudiced and narrowminded......just think about it....

echoboom sahib

Why Mirza kept on insisting that Quran is wrong and only he is right? Why Mirza wished to change the whole concept of Quran? I don`t get it. explain.
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#354 Posted by Zeena on May 2, 2007 10:45:08 pm
[[[#327 by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 8:37am PT

zeena (#320),

I have a nick? Are you feeling alright? Perhaps 5-time-daily head-banging is taking its toll on you. ]]

aishaM sahiba aka sattar2 sahib

I thought you are only confused and clueless, but, after reading this post I am feeling sorry on your state of mind.......

Who banged the head? ofcourse you when you do not believe in Islam and God(Almighty)..When you start promoting your own religion here and try to convince us that we are wrong , our faith is wrong, our belief in one God(Almighty) is wrong, Jesus Christ (PBUH) was wrong.......

Yes, you and your non Muslim religion is only right.......What a rationality......LOL
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#353 Posted by khuram on May 2, 2007 8:40:21 pm
# 348 sattar

But all Muslims are not unanimous on these beliefs. What you are telling,, mostly are the beliefs of uneducated or less educated Muslims. There are enlightened segments in Muslims who take these things in allegorical sense.

Many Muslims even do not believe that Issa is still alive in heavens. I think Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is a prominent example. And I do not think that Mr. Muhammad Gill (author) also believe in it. You can confirm from him.

Whereas many writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahib are simply the appeal to superstitional fears of common people. Whether or not he was right in the case of Muhammadi Beghum,,, but he did harrass her and her family by his terrible ``predictions`` about her and her family. Ahmadiya Jamaat often projects many rigth predictions of Mirza Sahib. Do you not think that belief is such minor predictions are also superstitional in nature...???

Many of the Muslims had joined Ahmedia Jamaat at the time when plague broke out in Punjab and Mirza Sahib manipulated the fears of common people by his predictions that who will die of plague and who will not. Was not it appeal to superstitional beliefs of common people...???

Looking forward for explanations.

Regards!
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#352 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 4:03:50 pm

hamidm (#351),

I could speculate, and it will surely enrage ullema …

Allah’s prophets and believers have always faced extreme opposition from disbelievers. Quran attests to this in several places. So it’s nothing new ... same same :-)

Conversely, perhaps it is because Ahmadis have challenged ullema on their own turf, over bread and butter issues. They have refused to negotiate with ullema and matched them verse for verse, hadith for hadith, reason for reason. In short, ullema risk losing their grip on politics and their halwa is on the line. Hence their resentment against Ahmadi-Muslims …

Heck, I think I’ll remain an Ahmadi just to annoy the mullah …

BTW, do download echo’s audio clips (#330) if you get to it. It was a riot listening to a fuming punjabi cussing and berating the caller …

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#351 Posted by hamidm2 on May 2, 2007 2:07:16 pm
Re: # 350

sattar,

.... i wonder why these folks get so worked up if you call yourself a muslim ? ....... i consider myself a muslim and i have some serious doubts about al-lah, his daughters, and his prophet (pbuh and his camel) ....... but they don`t seem to be all that upset with me .... what is it about you ahmedi muslims that riles them so and gets them to foam at the mouth ?
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#350 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 1:57:57 pm

echo,

In other words, Urstruly does not think your source is credible enough, and is therefore stepping away from it - just a hunch. Basically he is telling you to get a life and to stop posting from some lame web-site. It makes the ummah look bad!

... I agree …

+++

Urstruly, c’mon be a pal. Don’t get so worked up if I consider myself a Muslim. You need to move on. Or your Issa could descend from clouds and decide this matter. But what is he waiting for …??

I have my faith in Islam, and you have yours. I fail to see your problem.

[... btw, no one called anyone “children of prostitutes”. As usual, your translation is incorrect and self-serving. But hey, if the shoe fits :-) ]

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#349 Posted by Urstruly on May 2, 2007 1:39:41 pm
Re: # 347
Frankly, I do not care what Mirza did or who he was as long as these people do not call their religion `Islam`. It is a starnge religion that it only becomes valid if Islam is discredited. Nowhere in the history of mankind such a phenomenon emerged before. It is true that Islam had to discredit polytheism of Arabia, certain traits of Christianity, and Judaism but it never called itself Judaism or polytheism or christianity for that matter. Islam called itself the religion of Abraham. Strange.
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#348 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 1:29:34 pm

Khuram,

OK, some more details:

Belief in return of Issa is not a benign part of Islam. It is linked to brutality and bloodshed in the days to come.

Ullema believe that Issa will return and lead Islam to its final victory. How? Well, Issa will kill this one-eyd monster (dajjal) who will be riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. He will then join forces with Imam Mahdi and wage a battle of swords against non-believers. 70,000 jews will be killed. Millions more will be killed or forced to accept Islam on the blade of sword. Ensuing bloodshed, death, and destruction, will lead Islam to its final victory.

[BTW, Issa is then supposed to settle down, get married, and have children. No, this is not a joke …!]

Such a viewpoint is likely to lead believers to intellectual decay and violence, and not towards compassion and reason. Present day violent ideology of jihad is likely a product of such beliefs … where extreme violence and bloodshed by a prophet of Allah would lead Islam to its final victory. What’s good enough for the prophet is good enough for us … load the ak47.

Furthermore, such beliefs drive religion away from reason, and turn it into a fairytale. Christian clergy went down this path and led people to “dark ages”. Muslim ullema are heading down the same path, towards the same destination.

I could go on and on … but I hope you get the point.
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#347 Posted by echoboom on May 2, 2007 1:02:36 pm
Zeemax; Urstruly
A follower of a Mirza Liar-Lice [ jhhoot kee joon] has plenty of material available to embrace islam.

But the followers of Ghulam Farangi and boot-lickers of Farangi have to consider a lot more options in their miserable lives...they excel at ``pragmatism``. No wonder they always come to the rescue of the Munafiquoons & Murtadoons of CHOWK.

CHOWK is a glorified CHAT-ROOM...( self-delusional ``unflinching idealism`` hoopla by its owners notwithstanding) Never take it seriously. It is not a madressa or Darul-Uloom
Never ever try to convince; always ridicule...that is far more potent & effective.

it is really FUN.!!!!


Why did 1st Mureed of Mirza,

Mir Abbas Ali, leave the Jamaat?


READ the complete account here

an interesting excerpt

The Last Straw: that finally made him abandon the Liar


Once a Muslim conjurer came to Ludhiania. In
those days Mirza Ghulam was had just started boastful claims of being a
Promised Messiah. The conjurer came to Mirza Ghualm and said:

``Either you show me some trick or
I will show you mine.``

Mirza Ghulam said: You show me your trick.

Upon this, the conjurer took a weeding knife
and dig a little in the earth, put some seeds in it and sprinkled little
water. In a little while, shoots started coming out, within no time these
grew to about 18 inches in height. Then on each of them 5-7 different kinds
of flowers blossomed, each of them have a different fragrance.



Everyone was awestruck at this trick. Once
again this conjurer demanded:



``Show some miracle and I will show you all some more tricks.``


Mirza Ghulam said:


``I only know how to make dua, I do not know any other trick.``

Later Mirza Ghulam told Mir Abbas:


``Even if 100 or 200 ruppees are spent, we should try to learn this trick.``


This was the last straw, it put a permanent
knot in the heart of Mir Abbas Saheb. He thought: what kind of a Messiah
is he? He is definitely materialistic, if there had been even a trace of
love of Allah in his heart, he would not have been impressed with the conjurer`s
trick.




Mir Abbas demands a proof of Mirza Ghulam`s
prophethood
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#346 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 11:56:57 am

zeemax (#344) …

”Yup we`ll decide amongst ourselves …”

How much longer? It’s been 1400 years, you know.
I am getting a little tired of waiting :)

And don’t take Urstruly seriously; he is a heartbeat away from getting deported anyway ...
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#345 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:48:07 am
Sattar,

I gotta go now. I`ll attend to anymore of your questions (though I wonder if you still have any shame left for those) tomorrow.

Regards.
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#344 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:46:04 am
#343 by sattar2,

Yup we`ll decide amongst ourselves. In the meantime you`ll do well by listening to Urstruly`s advice contained in #339 i.e. ...``you are an innocent victim of Mirzaiat by no fault of yours but there is always time and opportunity to make up.``
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#343 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 11:40:54 am

Re #341:

I am not sure what you are alluding to here …
But can the three of you decide if Issa is in the sky or buried or what?

- You think such belief is superstition, designed for the uninformed (read “idiots”)
- Urstruly thinks this is a matter of faith, which is blind, and one should not mix faith with reason (next piller of Islam: earth is flat)
- Naqsh firmly believes Issa would descend down to earth from above clouds, on shoulders of two angels.

What does wikipedia say ?? khuram and I are now curious as hell ...
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#342 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:40:50 am
#340 by sattar2,

Does all this sound right ...? Or did I miss something ...?

Yeah. You missed that part about Issa having escaped crucifixion and having escaped to Kashmir and having died of old age there and having resurrected in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in Qadian, as per Mirza Ghiulam Ahmed Qadiani of-course, of Muhammadi Begum fame.

Cheers!
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#341 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:31:37 am
sattar2,

In your utter dishonesty, you also left the last para from my post #1118 which you reproduced:

As for Naqsh and Urstruly, they are my own. Please do not teach me whether it will sit well with them or not. They`re Muslims, while you aren`t.

Shame on you.

No regards.
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#340 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 11:29:45 am

echo (#330),

I listened to the clips …

The person who answered the phone could not respond to the question and cursed the caller. I fail to see your point.

Why not quote from Quran and tell us about Issa-in-the-sky. This may help zeemax decide if he should laugh or cry …

Look, after delving in Islam and evolution, Urstruly is now insisting that belief has nothing to do with reason. In other words, Islam requires blind faith. Either one believes or he does not. Issa may be in the sky, or buried, or out of the galaxy by now … it is a part of faith. Moses parted the ocean, Solomon talked to animals. Same same. And btw, earth is flat and Issa would some day descend down to earth. Same same.

But zeemax would have none of it ... and thinks all this is superstition (or myths?). But then again, he things superstition too is a part of Islam and appeals to the uninformed - aka ``idiots``.

Does all this sound right ...? Or did I miss something ...?
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#339 Posted by Urstruly on May 2, 2007 11:16:59 am
Re: # 336

I am silent on `issa (pbuh) in sky`` issue because I have already discussed it with you. I also told you that a belief can not be proven right or wrong by its very nature, it is that that you either believe in it or you don`t. The Muslim belief of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencion to heavens before he was crucified is different from whatever the belief of Mirzaiat is in this regards because these two religions are diametrically opposite religions. They are mutually exculsive in their belief system. If you believe that God is so helpless that He cannot ascend Jesus (pbuh) to heavens, saving having from crucification, then more power to you. If you think that our belief in Jesus` (pbuh) ascension, Moses` (pbuh)parting of sea, an ant communicating with King Solomon (pbuh), Holy Prophet`s parting of moon etc. are all superstitions then even more power to you. I do not think any of it effects our health any way.

Having said that what I call superstitious blind faith is when I posted the photocopy of Mirza Sahib`s book where he called all Muslims as sons of prostitutes, and even then you saying that it is not true. I have appealed to your good conscience many times before that you can get out of this misery of Mirzaiat, which was probably inflicted upon you through accident of birth, with absolutely no fault of your own, by rejecteing it. Accept Islam and become our brother. Yes fruads do happen in this world and you are an innocent victim of Mirzaiat by no fault of yours but there is always time and opportunity to make up.
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#338 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:15:40 am
#336 by sattar2,

Very good. So your google is working. But you wisely leave out the context from which this conversation began on that board:

#1098 by zeemax on April 9, 2007 11:37am PT
#1094 by sattar2,

Muhammad never performed miracles. He didn`t split the moon, nor multiplied food. He was an ordinary man. All these quotes are false.

What did happen though was that `Meraj`. And that too, there wasn`t any winged horse involved. All these things are to give a mythological significance to Muhammad`s profound experiences ..

Again, I say, Islam ranges from what appeals to the uninformed up to other things for the highly informed. But, and it`s a big but, In the end, it is the same.

But you may have difficulty in understanding that.


Now can we get back to the Mirza video and the two audios that echo posted plus the wiki link about Muhammadi Begum that I posted? Thanks.

Regards.
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#337 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 11:03:10 am
#335 by echoboom,

I don`t know whether to laugh or cry ...
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#336 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 10:20:22 am

zeemax (re #331),

You were OK with equating parts of Islam with superstition. But first, here’s what you wrote on Issa:

” …If Issa-ibne-Marriam continues to reside above clouds, it is for those who will believe it. For those who know better, they know what it means...``

Ahem, ahem. Are you telling me that Issa is not above clouds? But Maudoodi suggested he is indeed above clouds. Urstruly remains silent on the subject, although Naqsh and zeena are firm believers.

Can you guys make up your mind first??

You further wrote:

`` ... You`re partly right when you say the part of Islam that appeals to uninformed … is called superstition. But I won`t put it in that bracket. Sufiism is superstition, not Muhammad`s Islam. Muhammad himself never claimed to be an extraordinary person, and his last sermon as well as his deathbed utterings are proof of that. It`s only that however you can make a person get the drift, that is the best way … ``


Click [Islam vs. superstition …Girls Gone Wild ... reply #1118]

+++

How about superstition as a way to make a person get the drift? You seemed to be OK with it. So why cringe now ... ?
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#335 Posted by echoboom on May 2, 2007 10:11:26 am
Zemax:332
Echo can you post that video again?


Of course:




Zeemax:33
Do you think the caller is referring to the following prophecy?


Of course!


But then the impostor`s whole personna is infested & crawling with Lies-lice.

That is your Mirza-Ghulaam-Farangi.
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#334 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 9:48:56 am

khuram (#329), fair question …

“Issa in the skies” suggests Islam is a superstitious religion. This further suggests that a Muslim should disregard science, reason … and simply believe … and not question, or think, or analyze … but should keep his head down and believe.

Yes, the earth could be flat, you know ...

On the other hand “Issa buried somewhere” makes perfect sense. Doesn’t it?
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#333 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 9:46:51 am
#330 by echoboom,

Oh man.... and I`ve only listened to part 1 yet ...

``Kuj tey dusso badshao .... mein wi naee chaddan ga ... kinnian galaan kaddo gey .. Mirza to bohtian? Assi wi sunan noon bethey aan. Dasso Badshao .. jhoota si key naeen? ``

Brilliant.

Do you think the caller is referring to the following prophecy?

Mohammadi Begum

Mohammadi Begum (or Muhammadi Begum) (death 1966), a lady from the Punjab region of India, was the daughter of Mirza Ahmad Baig, who was a cousin of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement).

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had sent a marriage proposal for Mohammadi Begum in fulfillment of what he claimed to be divine instructions delivered to him in one of his visions. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also prophecised certain consequences if the vision was not fulfilled.

This prophecy served to be a point of controversy and contention between followers of Mirza Ghluam Ahmad and his critics. The critics claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad`s intentions were to marry Muhammadi Begum because of her alleged beauty and her father`s wealth. While Mirza Ghulam Ahmad`s followers claim that Muhammadi Begum was neither beautiful nor wealthy[1] and the intention behind the proposal was related to reforming Muhammadi Begum`s family who were turning away from Islam. The critics also claim that Mirza Baig was a devoted Muslim, and hence had repeatedly refused to wed his daughter to who he believed to be a non-believer.[2] Mirza Ghulam Ahmad`s followers claim that Mohammadi Begum`s family was openly absuive towards Islam and the prophecy containing the proposal was remedial in nature.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad`s repeated assertions that his marriage to Mohammadi Begum was ordained by God never fulfilled. He said: ``The Almighty God has told me that I should send a marriage proposal to the elder daughter of a Ahmad Baig; he has also ordered you to accept me as your first son in law and derive light from my knowledge and wisdom. Furthermore, I am to inform you that I have been granted the permission to execute the deed of the land you are interested in and bestow upon you additional land and other favors, provided you wed your daughter to me. This is the only treaty between you and I.
So, if you accept, I will accept this too. If you do not accept, then God has ordered me to warn you that -- in case the girl is married to someone else -- it will not be auspicious for you or her.``and, ``As a token of the Almighty’s favor to this humble person, Allah has ordained that, should Mirza Ahmad Baig refuse to wed his elder daughter to me, he will be considered Allah’s enemy and a disbeliever (Kafir). Additionally, as a punishment for his disbelief, Mirza Baig will die within three years of this refusal and any other man who marries Muhammadi Begum will die within two and half years of the date of his wedding. Muhammadi Begum is destined -- by the almighty Allah -- to ultimately become my wife.``

Moreover, he said:

“I am making not one, but six predictions: (1) I will be alive at the time of the wedding of Muhammadi Begum (2) Mirza Baig will also be alive at the time of the wedding of his daughter (3) Mirza Baig will die within three years of the date of the wedding (4) The Groom will also die within two and half years of the date of the wedding (5) Muhammadi Begum will remain alive until she becomes my wife (6) Despite disagreement of all her relatives, she will finally marry me.``

However, Muhammadi Begum married an orthodox Muslim, Mirza Sultan Ahmad. They lived together for forty years after Ghulam Ahmad`s death in 1908. Mirza Sultan Ahmad finally died in 1948 and Muhammadi Begum died in 1966, decades after Ghulam Ahmad`s prophecies.
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#332 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 9:23:29 am
#330 by echoboom,

Echo can you post that video again? Just so that Sattar saheb can tell us what Mirza Saheb is `actually` saying which I misheard!
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#331 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 9:12:53 am
#327 by sattar2,

If I recall correctly, you accepted that Islam has room for superstition … as it is designed to appeal of a wide spectrum of people ...

No. You recall incorrectly. I had said `mythology`, not superstition. Superstition is when you don`t go to work if a black cat crosses your path.

You need to end your obsession with 600 light years and stuff.

I have no such obsession. Issa in the sky and speed of light and 600 years is what your Mirza Saheb spent an entire lecture upon trying to prove Qura`an wrong. Watch that video that echoboom posted. Or are you too embarassed to do that?

Regards.
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#330 Posted by echoboom on May 2, 2007 9:09:02 am
Zeemax!

Someone called the Mirzai Head Quarters in London asked the bigwig there some questions.
this is the real recording while the caller was live on-air on the radio show.

warning:
The following program contains ....etc etc. Listener discretion is advised.

Enjoy!

The conversation starts very politely & friendly the fun starts at 4.03 minutes. total 10 minutes...part ONE

The Mirza Comedy show -Part ONE

Mirza Comedy show--Part TWO

This is their headquarters & Sattar 2 type is answering.
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#329 Posted by khuram on May 2, 2007 9:08:05 am
Re: # 327

What is point after all...???

Issa in skies or buried somewhere...??? Wats importance of this issue...???
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#328 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 9:03:14 am

zeemax … and btw, you misheard and/or misunderstood what Mirza Saheb supposedly said. Are you sure you are not making this up?

Apparently kaal is not the only one with his head screwed on backwards.

My faith in Islam is not at odds with science; so pardon me if I fail to take your ramblings seriously. But I am willing to eat my words if your Issa finally descends from above the clouds! Until this happens, you have little to make your case …

... so continue packing your suicide belt. And don`t forget to do a trial run before the actual deed ...
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#327 Posted by sattar2 on May 2, 2007 8:37:32 am

zeena (#320),

I have a nick? Are you feeling alright? Perhaps 5-time-daily head-banging is taking its toll on you.

You find Darwin irrational, but seem to be ok with Issa-in-the-sky!
What more can I say?

+++

zeemax (#324),

If I recall correctly, you accepted that Islam has room for superstition … as it is designed to appeal of a wide spectrum of people (read “idiots”).

You need to end your obsession with 600 light years and stuff. Just stick to reading Maudoodi … and Isaa will descend from skies, any day now …
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#326 Posted by Zeena on May 2, 2007 5:39:23 am
#324 zeemax
[[[Sure. Right after you confirm what Mirza Saheb was getting at was that Issa couldn`t be in 4th Heaven because it was impossible in 600 years given the speed of light, but landed in Qadian instead after a stopover in Kashmir 1800 years later, and that is perfectly scientific. ]]

LOL...
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#325 Posted by khuram on May 2, 2007 5:19:34 am
# 241 by Zeemax

[...] -- What`s your ultimate point? Or do you have conclusions which you would perhaps deem appropriate to share with us? I mean ... with your arsenal you can clobber anyone with solid arguments on BOTH science AND philosophy, but are these just for argument`s sake? Or is there something else? Are you getting at something which you will eventually tell us? -- [...]

hmm. Yes, I have to tell many things. I have a small circle of listeners as well. Yesterday, my one article was discussed with zoologists at Radio ``Open Source``.

Discussion can be listened at following link ... in the second segment, near the middle of hour.

http://www.radioopensource.org/new-zoology/

My following article was discussed:

Some Differences of Human and Animal Mind.

Regards!
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#324 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 1:39:38 am
#301 by sattar2 re #284,

Admittedly, superstition is part of your Islam. No?

No. Belief in the supernatural is. Perhaps you call it superstition.

We can then discuss Miraj, Moses parting the ocean, and Jesus raising the dead. Deal?

Sure. Right after you confirm what Mirza Saheb was getting at was that Issa couldn`t be in 4th Heaven because it was impossible in 600 years given the speed of light, but landed in Qadian instead after a stopover in Kashmir 1800 years later, and that is perfectly scientific.

Regards.
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#323 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 1:08:00 am
#290 by FarzanaVersey

...all knowledge is seeking...

Oh ... I thought all knowledge was seekhing .... :)
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#322 Posted by zeemax on May 2, 2007 12:55:44 am
#299 by khuram,

....ab iss ka naam pata bhi to batao na!...

Yaar all are the same. Mandira Bedi. Cricket sari wali bhi aur t-shirt wali bhi aur the matronly masi bhi.

Tareef os Khuda ki jis ne inhein banaya

Indeed :)
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#321 Posted by Zeena on May 1, 2007 10:13:34 pm
#307 bjkumar sahib

I hear yeah....

Yes, I have noticed this change in you lately...Thanks for your good words....

To you your belief, to me mine....

Lets agree to disagree on this.....No hard feelings.
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#320 Posted by Zeena on May 1, 2007 10:10:50 pm
#306 sattar2 sahib aka aishaM sahiba( your other nick)
My Islamic studies class did make every sense to me. I found all Islamic teachings rational, so why would I leave my class then?

I found Darwin`s theory irrational, so, there you go and your irrational argument.......

You lost it....you`re just clueless and confused...but, that`s not new....as always, you hate every thing about Islam and then you force others to follow your POVs.....LOL

You`re quite rational, man/woman.....just think about it.

sattar2 aka AishaM( your other nick)

[[#314 by sattar2 on May 1, 2007 1:10pm PT

re #313,

... when I have it, it is faith.
When others have it, it is blind faith ...]]

You never made any sense, except for this post.....guess what in the past I lost all hopes.......but, all of a sudden you came up with this post......Well, I must admit that this is excellent post by you...........

On same note...

You should respect for my faith, which you call blind faith......

Regards......

fair enough



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#319 Posted by parthaab on May 1, 2007 6:21:28 pm


Re: # 309 Farzana,

Guess its time we called the truce and retreated to our corners then. No harm done.



#302 by hamidm2
Re: # 298

........... the last time God did it the people beat the crap out of him and then crucified him ........... if he showed up today they would lock him up in an insane asylum or kids woud chase him down the street shouting ``pagal e oye



Remember that the people against him, were not atheists, but `god believers` of another variety - the jews! Interesting that Jesus got a taste of the venom he himself had introduced.

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#318 Posted by teshah on May 1, 2007 6:13:51 pm
What an argument about son and father!

Why, even Muslim Umma calls itself `Farzandaane Touheed` (sons of of the very oneness) collectively.

They say God once appeared on a road in the Central London. He introduced himself as God to every one but nobody gave Him any lift. It was only when he told them that He was the father of Jesus Christ that all showed any reverence to Him.

In fact, as a matter of necessity, the man has to create his own `make believe` world to give meaning to this life which even in the words of Qura-e-Hakeem is `Mataaul gharoor` (dhoke ki tatti), nothing but a fraud.

Just think young boy blowing him up as a suicide bomber and an old man, Sher Paao, claiming that God has saved him from death in the recent blast in Charsaddah, Pakistan.

How paradoxical, both relying on the same MB!
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#317 Posted by echoboom on May 1, 2007 1:38:03 pm
To be a munafiquoon & Murtadoon is to have a lack of faith in the one & only diety they themselves claim to believe in--the Supremacy of Man himself. But then still they cannot do away with the concept of a diety.
Now can there be a bigger ailment & disease than that?

Never ever shall they ever be DE-depressed...for they suffer from a cancer of their Psyche or until they recite : La ilaha; il al-Insaan

Reciting only the first half of the Kalima is at the root of their ailing hearts & minds.
Shrinks must get their heads examined, once a year or when there License is renewed. Even Driver`s Licenses & Taxi LIcebses are renewed after check up.

We might discover that it is really the Shrinks who have been exercising too much influence
in this so-called ``modern`` world.

Instead of these barrage of ``articles`` [ read:disease-confessions disguised as intellectualism or desire to understand] by the murtadoons it is far better to be positive and pro-active and listen to this:

MashaAllah what a discussion.

Depression - The Plague of the Modern World
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#316 Posted by sattar2 on May 1, 2007 1:26:07 pm

On a more serious note:

Term “son/children of God” appears in the Old Testament for David, Solomon, and even for Israelites. It denotes a metaphor, meant to underscore a close bond between man/people and God.

Apparently this term was applied literally in the case of Jesus … perhaps to enhance marketability of Christianity to pagans, who already had similar beliefs.

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#315 Posted by Folio on May 1, 2007 1:15:17 pm
DM saab,

Faith like love is blind. Blind faith is superfluous especially wrt God. As men of modern times we can give grades to it like reasonable, good/bad faith etc.,

To discuss Dr Gill`s point abt Son and God:

The modern man`s dilemma:- was a man created out of cloning cud be the son or brother of the `father` man?
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#314 Posted by sattar2 on May 1, 2007 1:10:26 pm

re #313,

... when I have it, it is faith.
When others have it, it is blind faith ...
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#313 Posted by dost_mittar on May 1, 2007 12:53:51 pm
freethinker:

What is the difference between faith and blind faith in matters religious?
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#312 Posted by freethinker on May 1, 2007 12:27:44 pm
Farzana:

Thanks for your feedbacks.

In one of them, you wrote, ``The son of god is not god.`` A reasonable person would think so but Trinity is a very complex concept. The believers believe in it but find it hard to explain it to the non-belivers. According to trinity, Jesus is the Son of God and also God.

For the time being, I give the following quotations to illustrate my point:

According to John 5:21, ``For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives them life to whom he is pleased to give it.``

According to John 10:30, ``I and the Father are one.``

According to Colossians, ``For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.``

Religion is a matter of faith. Those who believe in it may have peace of mind; those who don`t have faith are not any worse for it. It is easier and simpler to have faith than to lose it. Those who lose it, are the ones who do not want to have blind faith.

With regards,

Mohammad Gill
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#311 Posted by dost_mittar on May 1, 2007 12:14:53 pm
Farzana:

``.......... if he showed up today they would lock him up in an insane asylum or kids woud chase him down the street shouting ``pagal e oye !``.``

Hi!
Unless, of course, he shows up in the ``new land of opportunities``. As far as I know, the only ones chasing Sai Baba are the billionairs, the top politicians and bureaucrats who want his support for one reason or another.
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#310 Posted by bjkumar on May 1, 2007 11:43:46 am

#308 Hamidm2

Very funny, mian! But I am neither! :) :)
We are all mere learners on this site.


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#309 Posted by FarzanaVersey on May 1, 2007 11:30:43 am
#300 by parthaab:

This `best post` thing has not really affected me; I wish it would not bother you too considering you jumped in and laid claims to it in jest. I thought you were up for some ribbing...

Being tongue-in-cheek is a valid response and it was addressed to the general tenor of discussion, including one`s own sparse contribution.

You appear to have ignored what was really germane: Thanks for pointing out your posts 1-9. They are indeed silently evocative and rather the best. For they manage to cross both sides of the divide. The religious person might well say that it proves the omnipotence and invisibility of god`s powers and the non-believer can declare, here, there is nothing so god is Nothing.
- - -
#302 by hamidm2:
[Re: # 298

parthaab,

``Why does nt God show himself and clear all doubts ?``

........... the last time he did it the people beat the crap out of him and then crucified him ........... if he showed up today they would lock him up in an insane asylum or kids woud chase him down the street shouting ``pagal e oye !``........... god might not be the brightest star in heaven, but he ain`t no fool !]

The son of god is not god...

As re. ``Why doesn`t god show himself and clear all doubts?``, a few queries:

1. Has god asked anyone to believe in her/him?
2. Who is the doubter? Then why must anyone want to prove to those who do not believe? You only show your cards to those whom you trust. As you said, god is no fool...
3. God probably likes being mysterious.
4. What about polytheistic faiths? God is in all forms, so you can dance with god, sing with god, learn with god, drink with god, make money with god...goddesses are better at most of these.

The above could apply to humans as well. And god is in the details, so look carefully what you step on!


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#308 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 10:57:03 am
Re: # 307

bjkumar,

............who do you think you are - henry higgins !? ......... or is it dr frank bryant ?!
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#307 Posted by bjkumar on May 1, 2007 10:43:54 am

#303 Zeena

[hatred for Pakistan, Islam and ofcourse Mohd-Ali_Jinnah]

Alas, little sis, how you misunderstand me! Have you seen even a touch of those elements lately?!

Notice for instance, how I have even left the Manto alone.

I carry no hatred - never did - all I carry is my desire for the country to reconcile with its mistakes and do better.

And for you, and only for you, notice how I am making every effort to temper my words.

Which is a lot harder than it appears to many.

You may wish to revisit some of your own words with respect to the Dr. Gill, now!

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#306 Posted by sattar2 on May 1, 2007 10:16:16 am

Zeena,

There is a law of gravity also, but this naughty Issa continues to defy it. Not only that, but he has managed to stay alive, residing above clouds, for two thousand years now.

And don`t get me started on the trickster, Moses ...

Did you also walk out of your Islamiat class ? Or did you sit through, taking notes, memorizing what you were told???

You seem to be overlooking the flip side of your argument!
And therein lies the rub ...
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#305 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 10:14:44 am
Re: # 304

zeena,

sorry to hear about your horrific experience with school, but it is not too late - you can still get a ged ........
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#304 Posted by Zeena on May 1, 2007 10:07:51 am
I still remember studying this retarded Darwin`s evolution theory when I was in 9th grade.
Back then I read it again multiple times and @ the end my mind rejected it with all my mind`s fairness and logic.

Darwin`s theory of evolution seemed a big time joke to my mind, I laughed @ it.

When my teacher started discussing this theory in our class, I stood up and left the class, she asked me why?

I answered,``Why to waste time on a useless and stupid few words called Darwin theory of evolution? I would rather study something much more useful which would make sense.``

Darwin`s evolution theory was just a discarded theory, nothing more. It never became a law with NO evidence to back up........

There are millions of theories which are as useless as this theory could be.......All are nullified with out any proper proof.

Any Tom Dick and Harry studying lil bit of basic science can make up theories and make a rat out of him/herslef....that doesn`t mean a thing......

Theories have NO value unless they become a law........And for law we need data, evidence and proof......

So, this whole article is based on a nullified old and discarded theory.....LOL
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#303 Posted by Zeena on May 1, 2007 9:55:47 am
#282 parthaab sahib
Yes, indeed some of your posts do make sense. Thanks

#283 bjkumar sahib
Well, you are good in writing play scripts, articles and poems. But, dear sahib ji
Here in this particular article, sorry you lost it......Well, please, don`t take it @ heart and don`t get all sentimental....we will discuss some other issues ( mean other than your hatred for Pakistan, Islam and ofcourse Mohd-Ali_Jinnah).......

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#302 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 9:49:34 am
Re: # 298

parthaab,

``Why does nt God show himself and clear all doubts ?``

........... the last time he did it the people beat the crap out of him and then crucified him ........... if he showed up today they would lock him up in an insane asylum or kids woud chase him down the street shouting ``pagal e oye !``........... god might not be the brightest star in heaven, but he ain`t no fool !
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#301 Posted by sattar2 on May 1, 2007 8:48:37 am

zeemax (#284),

I asked a simple question based upon your ullema’s views.

Your honest answer should have been ” … this science-and-stuff is fine and dandy, but Allah does what He wills …”

Why keep harping that “Islam and evolution are compatible”? Let’s just call it blind faith and move on. Admittedly, superstition is part of your Islam. No?

We can then discuss Miraj, Moses parting the ocean, and Jesus raising the dead.
Deal?
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#300 Posted by parthaab on May 1, 2007 8:02:28 am
Re: # 290 Farzana,

``Those posts convey much more than all those quotes you put up. Thanks again!``

I am certainly in no race for `best post` here. And I do think some of your posts were good. Each one has his own `best post` and team of admirers.
However, Farzana, sarcasm is just no measure of genius.
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#299 Posted by khuram on May 1, 2007 7:53:46 am
Re: # 293

ab iss ka naam pata bhi to batao na!
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#298 Posted by parthaab on May 1, 2007 7:53:09 am
I am still trying to understand how `God` as a belief, originated.

Why do believers still quote proof for Gods existence revolving basically around the same three or four topics...for eg.

1. The boundless atom.

2. How life began years ago, and related topics

3. The inscrutable Universe.

While I have always thought it was just a matter of being told so by friends, teachers and especially, relatives, some of the answers on this board by the believers are perplexing.
I dont claim to know the answers to the ablve questions, nor does `science`.
To any reasoning mind, this does not mean that a default `super natural` has taken over.

Do religionists have any proof in our everyday lives?
Bottomline is : Why does nt God show himself and clear all doubts?
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#297 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 7:51:43 am
Re: # 295

urstruly,

``all of them agree with how Syed Moududi has interpretted the Quranic verse in question`` ............. do you realize how silly (or lame, as my daughter would say) that sounds !

a) why would al-lah`s word need interpretation by man - why couldn`t he make it clear the first time around ............ don`t tell me the omnieverything has a writing disability !

b) and why should we believe mardood maudoodi`s interpretation instead of first hand accounts of the meccans and ishaq or al tabari who lived around that time ........
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#296 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 7:27:17 am
Re: # 294

tehsin,

........... you have won this argument hands down ! .... congratulations on your victory over the evil forces of obscurantism ......

..............so now that you have proven, once and for all, that the prophet (pbuh and his camel) had allowed the worship of godesses, i would like to propose that we admit zeena and aiswariya rai to the pantheon in mecca .....

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#295 Posted by Urstruly on May 1, 2007 7:23:47 am
Re: # 294

``Shit``, yes because it dispels your prejudices. Just to let you know, I personally own three Tafseer of Qura`n, written by different writers, and yet more are vailable on the internet. It seems that all of them agree with how Syed Moududi has interpretted the Quranic verse in question.

``But Mr. Maudoodi had a different agenda ``

aaahh pahleez. everbody has an agenda. You do too.
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#294 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on May 1, 2007 7:07:30 am

#289 by Urstruly

I have gone through it and man if I may say so – what a crock of sh**t. I stand by Occam’s razor, “one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything”. This is why an FIR (first incident report) is given the top most priority in a court case. Unvarnished truth –as it happened, call it the way you see it. Let the reader, let the judge, let the jury examine the evidence for it self and come to their own conclusions.

But Mr. Maudoodi had a different agenda – he was trying to uplift (if not create) a nation. He also wanted to be their leader. So he had to come up with some explanation that could be palatable to his congregation. As usual, when you start looking for immediate or short term gains you end up making long term mistakes.

All the sources that have reported this incident as accurate are the primary, most immediately after the actual event. I confirmed this in both Ibn e Ishaq and Al Tabri. The sources that Maudoodi quotes who question them are all way after the fact and who were looking at this through the prism of history. I am quoting a passage which is on page 44 where Mr. Maudoodi makes his case in earnest.


“The reality of the incident is this:

The Holy Prophet recited Surah An-Najm and performed prostration at the end of it. At this, all the hearers, both the Muslims and the mushriks, fell down in prostration. This was what really happened and there is nothing strange about it. Let us depict the occasion: The Holy Prophet was reciting a forceful piece of the eloquent Quran in a very impressive manner. Naturally the occasion produced an emotional effect and all the listeners instinctively fell down in proatration along with him. It was because of such ecstasies produced by the Holy Prophet’s recital of the Quran as this that the disbelievers dubbed him a “sorcerer”. As regards the story that the Holy Prophet praised the deities of he disbelievers, it appears that the Quraish concocted the story to hide their “defeat”. Probably someone or other of them explained away their defeat, saying, “We ourselves heard Muhammad praising our deities. Therefore we also fell down in prostrations along with him”. As regards the migrants to Habash, they returned to Makkah when they heard the concocted story that there had been a compromise between the Holy Prophet and the Quraish. It appears that some of those people who had seen the Muslims and the mushriks falling down together in prostration, presumed that peace had been made between them, so the story traveled to the migrants in Habash who had no means to verify it and thus thirty-three of them returned to Makkah.”

I am pretty certain that this will not sway you or any of those who share your views. So I conclude by quoting the Quran may be that will have some effect.

“Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering”………………….Surah 2:7

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#293 Posted by khuram on May 1, 2007 6:38:46 am
Re: # 286

Tareef os Khuda ki jis ne inhein banaya -- aur itne roop diye:-)
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#292 Posted by dost_mittar on May 1, 2007 6:19:07 am
Urstruly#269:

Just some trivia:
``Sirindeep`` is an anglicised version of ``Swarndeep``, which in sanskrit means ``Golden Island``, or ``Sone ki Lanka`` of your ancestor Ram`s conquest :).

It is also the source of the word serendipity, which is why many westerners choose to go there to relax.
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#291 Posted by dost_mittar on May 1, 2007 6:10:06 am
echoboom#273:

Interestingly, I had predicted the same in my very first interact at chowk eight years ago in an article by one Rahil Khan. I had also at that time added India to the list of countries where an Islamic renaissance may take place. I was wrong about India, though, as Wahabi forces have gathered strength there and dissenting voices are unlikely to find a hospitable ground in India now.

But wonder what makes you happy? These Western Muslim intellectuals are likely to be of the ``Munafiqoon`` variety.
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#290 Posted by FarzanaVersey on May 1, 2007 6:10:01 am
HamidM (245):

No, even if you said it in jest, I did not destroy your profound theory. Simply because theories are indestructible if you believe in them. Going by your interacts you do...and that has been my position. The moment we seek to convert others to our belief system, we assume a `faith`, even if it is faithlessness.
- - -
Anil (256):

You are saying pretty much what I have been. If you read my post #39 you`d know. Here is a bit: ``Who created god?`` cannot be a scientific query, for if one believes in an imaginary creation then questioning it is itself proving it. Who creates a fantasy? However, when you talk about going beyond Time and Space, then you in fact take the leap into a non-rational endeavour. It can be satisfying for the basis of all knowledge is seeking - whether it is the galaxy or god.``
- - -

Zeena (280):

Thank you. If both you and hamidm can like me - and a few others who have different ways of expressing it :-) - then life cannot be that bad...
- - -

parthaab (282):

Thanks for pointing out your posts 1-9. They are indeed silently evocative and rather the best. For they manage to cross both sides of the divide. The religious person might well say that it proves the omnipotence and invisibility of god`s powers and the non-believer can declare, here, there is nothing so god is Nothing.

Those posts convey much more than all those quotes you put up. Thanks again!
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#289 Posted by Urstruly on May 1, 2007 5:36:01 am

oops the hyperlink to Tafheem-ul Quran (Understanding Quran):

http://www.scholaris.com/tafheemulquranenglish.htm
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#288 Posted by Urstruly on May 1, 2007 5:34:44 am
Re: # 277 Tehsin;

Please at least bother to read the whole thesis before casting your judgement. The case has been dissected in over 6-7 pages; and you`ve just read the first paragraph where author mentions the alleged incident and you start jumping ``oh see author is saying the same thing``.

Here is the English version of the thesis in question, for your convenience. Go to Chapter Al-Hajj, and the argument starts from page 36 of 52 of the pdf file. May Allah give you guidance.
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#287 Posted by hamidm2 on May 1, 2007 4:55:56 am


Re: # 277

tehsin abbasi,

.... shahbash naujawan ! ...... finally you too know the truth about jesus christ`s sisters ! ....... now, all we have to do is find al-lah mian`s great great grand daughter who, according to dan brown, is living somewhere in the north of england and we can find out the truth about this charlatan who claims to live on the seventh heaven (or is it the fourth?) .............

...................but you are as naive as ever if you actually believe that religious people like urstruly can be ``intellectually honest``............ by definition, these folks cannot be honest or kind or compassionate or truthful, or have any of the attributes that you associate with being a `good` person - they are not interested in all this nonsense because they are on a bigger mission from a higher authority .......... ordinary people have to watch out if they don`t want to suffer the fate of the jews and christians of hijaz and nijran (not to mention poor grandpa gopinath of choa khalsa) .................
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#286 Posted by zeemax on May 1, 2007 4:48:05 am
#285 by khuram,

Khuram ... Mandira Bedi nam hai, Bandra Mumbai main rehti hai .. shaadi shuda hai ... leykin koi pabandi nahin hai. Now Raqeeb tau mat bano ...

Here for your further enjoyment:



Leykin asl shakl yeh hai:



Now how do you explain this transformation in the laws of physics?

:)

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#285 Posted by khuram on May 1, 2007 3:54:41 am
# 266 by zeemax

yaar, iss sarri wali ka naam kia hai? kahan pe rehti hai...??? !!!!!!!!!!!
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#284 Posted by zeemax on April 30, 2007 11:23:58 pm
#276 by sattar2,

Allah lifts Issa to Himself ... Should we believe this too? How does this jive with “evolution”? ... Perhaps you should review your claims of ``scientific`` Islam ...

I can understand your fascination with the above argument and where it comes from.

In a youtube video that Echoboom posted, your current Mirza Saheb said Issa cannot be in the fourth sky because skies are in seven levels and because at the speed of light it takes 18-20 billion years to reach earth, fourth sky would mean somewhere in the middle and Issa could not be there in just 600 years. When the questioner asked that aren`t prophets free from limitations of time & space and gave `Mairaaj` as an example, he was flummoxed because he couldn`t deny it as false, and kept on harping upon Issa can`t be in the fourth sky and then asked the questioner to sit down.

Is that all there is? Or is there anything else to the mirzai argument?
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#283 Posted by bjkumar on April 30, 2007 10:04:03 pm

#Zeena,

Little sis, in my humble opinion you need to value original creativity and show appreciation for the ORIGINAL contribution of the many interactors here who have actually thought about the subject matter and tried to start a serious dialog going on it.

You are particularly unkind to the author who – in spite of the bland style peculiar to people of his profession – has created this well-intentioned original piece of work for the enjoyment of the READERS.

It is better to value substance over mere form and style. Readers can not live on style alone!

Thank you.

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#282 Posted by parthaab on April 30, 2007 8:43:28 pm
Re: # 280 by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:28pm PT
``As much as I found height of retardedness in this article and in majority of posts here on this board......

I am impressed to read Farzana Versey`s post #244........

Farzana Versey, she is the best interactor,writer and humanist...........``




But you have nt even read my first few posts here 1-9 or so...maybe you d have a different opinion if you had read them since they were actually the best :-)

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#281 Posted by teshah on April 30, 2007 8:38:04 pm
Re: # 277

Excuse me `Sitta` in Arabic means `six` and not seven - vide ``Six major Hadith collections - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Six major Hadith collections (Arabic: Al-Sihah al-Sittah) are the works of some ... The name ``Al-Sihah al-Sittah`` translates literarly to ``The Six ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_major_Hadith_collections - 27k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this``

My point is why be obsessed with a god which can only speak Arabic when Quran itself says that the prophets always conveyed their message in the language of the nation for which they were sent - vide Sura 14, verse 4.
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#280 Posted by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:28:08 pm
As much as I found height of retardedness in this article and in majority of posts here on this board......

I am impressed to read Farzana Versey`s post #244........

Farzana Versey, she is the best interactor,writer and humanist...........
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#279 Posted by Zeena on April 30, 2007 8:12:56 pm
#244

By Farzana Versey

(((#244 by FarzanaVersey on April 29, 2007 6:58am PT
Much as it is valid to raise doubts about blind belief, it is a bit disconcerting to watch people completely nullify religion. You cannot dismiss an abstraction like faith (in any sphere, I might add); you may question the negative fallout in terms of wars, fanaticism, terrorism, social and gender inequities perpetrated in its name.

But then these are the curses of the demons that reside in humans of any stripe and ideology.

Some of us who profess ‘non-belief’ tend to get too obsessed about religion and our proselytising is far worse because we claim to be rational. For every ten quotations that talk against religion, there will be 20 more that are pro.

Yes, one would not want someone to shove religion down one’s throat, but then one does not want any ideology to be forced upon us, including the much-touted nationalism.)).....

The best post through out this board. Farzana Versey is no doubt an excellent writer...
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#278 Posted by parthaab on April 30, 2007 5:27:11 pm


I am still trying to understand how `God` as a belief, originated.

While I have always thought it was just a matter of being told so by friends, teachers and especially, relatives, some of the answers on this board by the believers are perplexing.

The proof quoted for Gods existence revolves basically around the same three or four topics...for eg.

1. The boundless atom.

2. How life began years ago, and related topics

3. The inscrutable Universe.

I dont claim to know the answers to the ablve questions, nor does `science`.
To any reasoning mind, this does not mean that a default `super natural` has taken over.

Do religionists have any proof in our everyday lives?
Bottomline is : Why does nt God show himself and clear all doubts?



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#277 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 30, 2007 3:07:36 pm
275 by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 1:32pm PT

”The incident that you have mentioned comes from unathenticated or fabricated ahadith. None of the Sihah Sitta (seven most authentic) compendiums of ahadith list those ahadith. For refernce, please see; Tafheem-ul-Qura`n:


http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/022/surah_all.htm”



You know some thing – I never thought that you would actually lie. I have always taken you to be an intellectually honest person (misguided maybe) but not dishonest. But Man! You say things with such dhurralla, with such conviction that people kind a take your word for it.

But today I was intrigued by your conviction in this matter. So although, it is really hard for me to read Urdu, I did persevere. I used the link that you gave me for tafheem ul quran, please check for yourself page 240 where the whole incident is clearly mentioned. The details are a bit different from mine but the incident is the same. Let me translate it for others. This is the direct translation from tafheem ul quran.

“The case as is related is that the Prophet developed a desire and a wish that if ayahs of Quran were revealed to him which could lessen the opposition and the hate that the polytheists felt, may be they could come closer to Islam. Or at least it should lessen their opposition to Islam. This desire was only in his heart when he during a gathering of the Quraish started getting the prophetic message it was Sura-e-Najam. While he was reciting it suddenly he uttered the words “THESE HIGH RANKED GODDESSES, THERE BLESSINGS ARE DEFINITELY NEEDED” beyond this he continued reciting Sura-e-Najam. At the end of the Sura when he went into sijdah all the Quraish the mushiriqeen as well as muslimeen went into sijdah together.

The polytheists said that now they had no dispute left with Muhammad. We also say that God is the creator and the giver, but these help us and our well wishers. That evening Gabriel came and said; what have you done? I never brought these two verses. This caused the Prophet great anguish and God revealed verse 8 Sura Banu Israel. (I checked the Quran for this - something is wrong with this reference because this verse does not refer to this incident). This continued to be a source of pain and anguish for the Prophet till this current verse was revealed where God said that this is not the first time this happened to one of his messengers.

The results of this event were far reaching because the Quraish and the muslimeen had all performed a sijdah together. The emigrants who had gone to Abbysinia heard that peace had been declared between the Prophet and the polytheist of Mecca. A lot of them returned back. But upon return they discovered that the news of compromise was false, the enmity between Islam and kufr continued.

This event is described in the tafseers of Ibn e jareed, ibn e saad, al wakidi, musa bin uqbah, ibn e ishaq and ibn e rabi hatim …………..etc.”

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#276 Posted by sattar2 on April 30, 2007 2:53:10 pm

Urstruly (#275),

This too is from your web-site … and discusses Issa-in-the-sky!

Click on the link below.
Use the drop menu to go to page031 (verse 55)

Click [Allah lifts Issa to Himself – 3:55]

Should we believe this too?
How does this jive with “evolution”?
What does dr. Israr Ahmad think??

Perhaps you should review your claims of ``scientific`` Islam ...
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#275 Posted by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 1:32:27 pm
Re: # 274

The incident that you have mentioned comes from unathenticated or fabricated ahadith. None of the Sihah Sitta (seven most authentic) compendiums of ahadith list those ahadith. For refernce, please see; Tafheem-ul-Qura`n:


http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/022/surah_all.htm


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#274 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 30, 2007 1:12:25 pm
FACT CHECK

#268 by hamidm2

2. you claim that the arabs had added 360 dieties to al-lah, but isn`t it true that muhammad (pbuh and his camel) had intially okayed worshiping al-lah`s three daughters before al-lah disowned them ...... what happened ?”

#269 by Urstruly

“Ans 2;

This is false accusation and an outright lie - an insult to the people who sacrificed their lives, families, and well being for the cause of Monotheism.”

What Hamid has referred to are called the Satanic verses , which is precisely the title and the topic of the book Satanic Verses by Rushdie. I am not a 100% certain, but I believe it was Abu Sufyan himself who had gone to the Apostle of God for a compromise. The Quraish and all the people of Mecca would give up all their Gods and Goddesses – clean out the whole Kabah, worship only Allah if he would only allow his 3 daughters the Goddesses al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat to remain in the Kabah.

The Prophet waited for a revelation which came and it approved inclusion of these Goddesses. Actually they were referred in these verses as “al-Gharaniq al-ula” (the high birds). The Quraish were relieved that they could now get back to there customary pilgrim trade as a unified people, but that was not to be.

Next time the Quraish saw the Prophet, the compromise had been abrogated. Gabriel had come down and revealed that the earlier verses were not from God but actually from Satan who had disguised himself as Gabriel. Thus these verses of the Quran were abrogated and actually there is mention of the 3 Goddesses in Sura 53:19-20. The abrogation was also confirmed in the Quran with Surah 22:52.

“Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;”


So the incident did occur. It did cause uproar in Mecca. It was abrogated.
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#273 Posted by echoboom on April 30, 2007 12:22:10 pm
While the Dogs howl, the Caravaan moves on


to secularoons, munafiquoons, murtadoons, and liberaloons:

suun toa saheeh jahaan meiN hai teraa fasaana kya
Kehtee hai tujh ko khalque-Khudaa ghaibaana kyaa


tr: Hark! What is the opinion of one and all around the world
Hear! what they say about you, when you are not listening



Ameer Ali: Islam`s coming renaissance will rise in the West



  • A wave of rationalism is spreading from emigre Muslim intellectuals

  • April 30, 2007

IN the minds of many Muslims, an imagined West is the source of all or most of the problems afflicting the world of Islam. Similarly, in the West, an imagined Islam, purposefully structured and popularly propagated, has created a perception that this religion is a threat to Western civilisation. Between these mutually exclusive mind-sets a new phenomenon is emerging in the real West, laying the foundations for a new wave of Islamic rationalism in the 21st century.


The Islamic resurgence of the post-1970s strengthened the hands of the religious orthodoxy and engendered the spectre of political Islam but failed to rekindle the spirit of intellectual rationalism that once pushed Islam to the frontiers of science and modernity. That failure was compounded and worsened by the rise of tyrannical regimes in the Muslim world. The absence of democracy and lack of popular support forced these regimes to look for legitimacy elsewhere.

By championing the cause of religious orthodoxy of the dominant variety in each context, these regimes masqueraded as champions of popular and populist Islam. Any intellectual pursuit that threatened this state-mullah alliance was aggressively curtailed. In Egypt, in Pakistan, in Syria, and in many other Muslim countries Muslim intellectuals who challenged populist Islam faced condemnation not only by the religious hardliners but also by the secular elite that governed these countries.



One happy outcome of this tragic situation was the voluntary exodus of Muslim intellectuals to the West. From an inhospitable environment of political tyranny and ideological oppression Muslim scholars migrated to find refuge in the West, where the mind enjoys more freedom to think, debate and express. As a result, the migrant Muslim intellectuals are now producing a new genre of publications, many of which are questioning centuries-old interpretations of the primary texts in Islam. A new era of ijtihad (independent thinking) rooted in scientific, objective reasoning is spreading from the West and is beginning to make its mark in the Muslim mind-set.



These intellectuals are not necessarily religious scholars by training, like the graduates from al-Azhar University in Egypt or Zeituna from Tunis or Qarawiyin in Morocco, but scholars trained in other fields such as social sciences, medicine, engineering, physical sciences and law.



For example, Mohammed Arkoun, an Algerian Muslim, is an emeritus professor of Islamic thought at the Sorbonne, Paris, who approaches the Koran and other classical texts in Islam from historical, social, psychological and anthropological angles. The methodology of his research, the sharpness of his arguments and conclusions of his writings are dynamite to traditional Islam. Laleh Bakhtiar, a Chicago-based American female convert to Islam, is not a classically trained Arabic scholar, but has translated the Koran after years of research and is questioning the conventional meanings of some of the Koranic concepts.



Bassam Tibi, a political scientist, who writes mostly in German, applies sociological and anthropological theories to study Islam and finds that the cause of Muslim underdevelopment lies not in the West but in Islam as understood and preached by the orthodox clerics. Amina Wadud, an Afro-American Muslim convert from Bethesda, Maryland in the US, has a PhD in Islamic Studies and Arabic from the University of Michigan and is pioneering the research on gender relationship in Islam and retheorising Koranic hermeneutics. Abdelwahab El-Affendi, a former Sudanese diplomat based in London, published Who Needs an Islamic State? in 1991, in which he questions the theological arguments advanced by the protagonists of an Islamic caliphate.



And finally, Abdullahi An-Naim, a law professor at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, questions the inadequacies of Islamic sharia and its suitability for a pluralistic society.




There are too many of these scholars to enumerate and the number is increasing. All these cases underline the revolutionary thinking among Muslim intellectuals that is setting the pace for a new wave of Islamic rationalism radiating from the West.



Even writers from Muslim countries who are afraid to publish their works at home are doing so abroad. For example, The Book and the Quran (Koran): A Contemporary Interpretation by Muhammad Shahrur, a civil engineer from Syria, is banned in his country. He argues that human understanding of the Koran is relative and changing and that it requires the continuous exercise of human reason.



His appeal to apply tools of modern epistemology and objective scientific reasoning to the study the Koran is anathema to hardline Islamists. Similarly, Hassan Hanafi, an Egyptian professor of philosophy, is well known for his rationalist views on Islam throughout the intellectual circles in the US, Japan, Germany and Morocco but is frowned upon by the al-Azhar establishment in Egypt. In short, scholars such as Shahrur and Hanafi have become intellectual prisoners in their own countries.



The situation is changing fast. The internet and electronic communication technology have revolutionised the production and distribution of knowledge. Sources of information that were only remotely accessible to a selected few are readily available to many at the click of a mouse. Inquisitive Muslim minds do not have to wait for a cleric to arrive for consultation on theological issues. With the help of the internet any verse or chapter of the Koran and any sayings of the Prophet can be accessed from multiple sources and the reader has the luxury of choosing from among a variety of interpretations, meanings and elaborations.



This revolution in information gathering has become a subversive tool and is eroding the power base of traditional clerics. The authority of the pulpit is collapsing by the hour. The traditional argument that one should be a trained Islamic scholar or an imam to interpret the Koran does not carry weight any more. There is a rising tension between the traditional guardians of Muslim orthodoxy and a new crop of secular educated Muslims, many of whom are better equipped with advanced methodological tools to handle the primary religious texts. An Islamic spring is dawning from the West.



While Western governments and the media are too preoccupied with fighting militant Islam and its terrorist offshoot, the more positive developments that are taking place within the Muslim intellectual world are being ignored. The wave of critical thought emanating from a new breed of Muslim scholars in the West is one of those positive changes. It is a good omen for a long-awaited Islamic renaissance. The hated West has become the surrogate mother of this wave of Islamic rationalism.



Ameer Ali, a former chairman of the Muslim Community Reference Group, is a visiting fellow at the business school at Murdoch University in Perth.
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#272 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 11:47:16 am
Re: # 270

bjkumar,

..... like you, i am really perplexed now ....... i had heard this story about hazrat adam (pbuh and his dinosaur) being born in sri lanka, but i always thought it was a rumor started by devious indians to establish their credentials as part of the human race (a myth that george allen tried to dispel just recently) .......... but now that urstruly has confirmed this story, i will have to review my beliefs .............

...... i think there is some merit to your thesis that adam belonged to a non-human species, which would explain the antics of some of the interactors on chowk ......... but i am sure urstruly and other believers will find that idea distasteful and ground for immediate beheading ........
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#271 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 11:35:30 am
Re: # 263

jay,

..... i am sorry you are upset at our total disdain for the `more evolved and complete` eastern religions ....... let me assure you that we find all religions, including the monotheistic abrahamic faiths, equally disgusting and not worthy of serious discussion .......... having an ``intellectual discourse`` about religion is like discussing the role of the tooth fairy in modern dentistry ...............
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#270 Posted by bjkumar on April 30, 2007 11:27:05 am

#269 Urstruly

Dear sir, thank you for the information. I was unaware of the facts you quoted in Answer 1.

I do seek one small clarification, though.

Since virtually all the Sri Lankan we see on TV have a deep dark complexion, how did the change in the color shades come about?

Or get effected?

Since Mian Adam was the only one of his kind and he would have been deeply brown - and the only other creatures of the less-than-brown variety would have been other-than-human species, you don`t think....?!!

Hmmm.......!!

Perhaps a candidate topic for a Dr. Gill article down the road.

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#269 Posted by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 11:17:33 am
Re: # 268

Ans 1:

The first human being who descended to earth from heavens, who was the first Prophet and father of all human beings, including all Prophets was Adam (pbuh). It is a consensus among Abrahamic scholars that the land where he set foot the very first time was Sirandeep, which is now called the island of Sri Lanka. This makes Adam (pbuh) a Tamil or a Sinhali instead of an Arab. Not quite Indian but close.

Ans 2;

This is false accusation and an outright lie - an insult to the people who sacrificed their lives, families, and well being for the cause of Monotheism.
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#268 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 10:43:56 am
Re: # 264

urstruly,

a couple of quick questions:

1. i can understand god`s aversion for india and indians, but of the 124,000 prophets (pbut and their camels) that you claim he sent down, can you name two or three (other than mirza ghulam ahmed) who descended in india ?

2. you claim that the arabs had added 360 dieties to al-lah, but isn`t it true that muhammad (pbuh and his camel) had intially okayed worshiping al-lah`s three daughters before al-lah disowned them ...... what happened ?

............ i don`t know much about hindooism, but i seriously doubt that any sane hindoo not ravaged by the long term effects of vegetarianism, actually believes that their god had an elephant nose .............. their praying to an ugly stone sculpture is just as silly as your praying to a mysterious black meteorite ...... so please cut them some slack !
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#267 Posted by zeemax on April 30, 2007 10:18:46 am
.... actually four others are competing too .... is it the Barbadian who has it for the moment? LoL ...
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#266 Posted by zeemax on April 30, 2007 10:16:47 am
Jay yaar ... don`t be so highly strung ...

Tell me what`s wrong with this sari? The circle says what`s wrong!


But is it really?

What`s wrong is that the first Pakistani flag is most prominent in undisputed control of her right ... ahem .. while Indian and Britain are competing for the `sheesahy ka ghar!`` and another Pakistani flag has a choice piece while the second Indian flag is still struggling somewhere around her feet ...

Isn`t it? :)
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#265 Posted by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 10:10:41 am

Re: # 263

It is great injustice to consider the insults of atheists to your religion as Muslim insults just because that who insulted your religion claims to be a Pakistani.
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#264 Posted by Urstruly on April 30, 2007 10:05:11 am

Re: # 260

Since you asked the question referring to ``Abraham`s religion``, I will try to answer your question from the persepctive of Islam. First of all your contention is not right that Eastern religions do not enter into the Islam`s discourse and thought process. But before I get to that let me make this very clear that Islam only treats a religion as a valid religion as long as it promotes Monotheism with no ifs, ands, or buts - no dualty, no trinity, and no pentagon. Allah, Khuda, Bhagwan, or God is the Only God there is. Having said that, Islam do recognize the concept of un-adulterated Monotheism in not only Hinduism, but Confucianism and Zorastorianism as well. According to the Islamic belief system Allah has sent approximately 124,000 Prophets to every nation of the world who delivered the message of Monotheism to that group of humanity in different times. That is the reason in almost every religion of the world there exists the concept of One Supreme being. We also see that around the globe the development process of human intellect has not been uniform. From time to time one group of people rises above others and then descends down into obscurity. Not only that but some preimitive societies still exist where concept of Monotheism is at very basic level. So it is my assumption that the message from God to any particular society is tailor made to appeal to the level of intelect of that time. The corruption of message is inherent in human nature. Therefore, even after Moses and Jesus (pbu them both) strictly preached monothism, the corruption did occur. for example, it was not that the Arabs before our Holy Prophet (pbuh) had forgoten Allah but they added 360 others dieties as well.

As far as the question about facing the K`aba during prayers is concerned, please appreciate the difference from idol worship. In idol worship, as far as I understand, the worshiper does not really worship the idol but he considers idol as the likeness of a diety. In comparison, Ka`ba is only a marker, no more no less, and does not present likeness or any association with anything. It is a symbol for direction, so that all Muslims around the world have uniformity in offering a ritual.
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#263 Posted by jay1 on April 30, 2007 10:03:49 am
#261..
YEAH! get it off your chest...be happy!
This is like seeing the hippies or the ``new churches`` and completely escaping the humanitarian aspects of christianity...or just looking at the antics of the bearded zealots and mistaking them for actions of ``all true believers``!

Have you ever even read any one of the 4 darsanas i mentioned?
Patanjali`s yoga sutras are easily available..provided one has the will and the open mind..
your ridicule only proves you have ``already made up your mind``.

[It is also the ridicule uneducated guys heap on educated ones..``it is all so complicated and fruitless..this education...apni deen hi kafi hai...etc etc...beats me how people pompously make fun of unrelated things just to hide their indecurities].

Often one comes across pakistanis (& some dumb indians too) questioning indian space achievements saying why not feed the poor instead!! The verisame guys will shoo away a poor beggar saying ``saalon ko gandi aadat lag gayee hai!!``

secondly these 6 ways of thought predate the ``downfall`` of most hindu thought as apparent today..(varnashram jati vyavastha etc).
Though the 4 castes find mention in the scriptures, we strangely find the lowest of the lowlies getting married to kings and producing mighty offspring! (King bharata`s extraction is quite strange..to say the least, and so too the ``glorified`` pandavas who were born ``out of wedlock``!
The composer of the ramayana was Valmiki...a ``koli``! (fisherman).

One of the queens of the mahabharata was matsyagandha..a lowly fisherwoman! (but of great beauty..THAT being the equaliser!!

I was not talking of sadhus my dear!

I was talking of high level secular thought that could even question the need of and existence of God!!

Do read any upanishada if you chance to get it, very intellectually stimulating.

There are many (108?) the brihad-aranyaka, the mandukya, the prashna, the , the ka-tha
the shwetashwtar..

I was hoping people like you could hold intellectual discourse without going down to ``street level``.

But then this is chowk...and this ``knee jerk`` reaction to ``pagan faiths`` ..the ``playing to the islamic gallery``..is to be expected..

Bravado..rough language..ma-behen expletives...all to be expected..Afterall that is how ``macho martial muslims`` are supposed to despatch ``meddlesome hindus``...

Intolerance of all things except islam is also to be expected..

So expecting any cool inellectual dialog too would be unrealistic..

My mistake entirely ..
Jayen
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#262 Posted by Folio on April 30, 2007 9:04:52 am
Subhash Joshi Saab,

Thanks for the link. I read Mahabharata (all 18 Parvas) in childhood. I shud read it again in full. It`s it`s the greatest epic of this world.

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#261 Posted by hamidm2 on April 30, 2007 8:41:36 am
Re: # 260

jay,

..... hindooism and other more ``more evolved and complete`` eastern religions are too complicated for the simple-minded followers of abrahamic faiths - so please don`t confuse us ........... on the other hand, when one looks at the naked sadhus with ashes in their hair, elephant-nosed gods riding rats and monkey kings with tails on fire, one has to doubt the statement that these eastern religions are `more evolved and complete` ........ to an uninformed outsider, hindooism seems to be something dreamed up by a bunch of happy folks under the influence of hallucinogens ! .......... however, i will admit it seems to be lot less harmful than stuff dreamed up by delusional jews and bedouins wandering in the desert ..........
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#260 Posted by jay1 on April 30, 2007 7:30:31 am
Hi, all
What surprises me is when people like the author (abrahm`s religions) write, they totally exclude eastern religions that are more evolved and complete!
To their minds even when attempting scientefic analysis (meaning open thought), these easter older philosophies are not even worth a mention.
They will mention aristotle in passing ..may be because ``arab`` thought did have ``arastu`` in its ambit, but will take extreme care ``not to loose caste`` & ``credibility`` by mentioning Hindu and Buddhist thought!

the hindus have 6 systems of thought ranging from completely agnostic to monotheistic ``adwait`` (non-dual).

The sankhya / nyaya / vaisheshika / mimansa and yoga darshanas (to mention 4) are very advanced ``secular`` philosophies completely delinked from a dogmatic belief in God.

So is Buddhism! It actually is silent on the ``bearded angry (worship none else but me) patriarchal and ``jamindari hegemon`` of a god!!

The Riga-veda (hiranya-garbha sukta) actually questions the very standard concept of god as in the abrahmaic religions.

It says that if the gods ``existed``, it logically means at some time they ``did not exist`` and at some time they ``will not exist`` ...as existence and non-existence are always tied together as dependent duality.

like night & day / light & dark / living & dead / young & old.

Obviously a god cannot be ``reduced`` to ``fit`` the description of the biblical / koranic concept of god!

A god can NEVER be vengeful, if creation and harmony are the objectives!

A god can never have divisions (brahmin/chandaal, kafir/momeen) etc.

The sukta then deduces that there was / is and will be something primordia that is perforce without beginning or end! (The eternal truth).

It has to be multi all...multi dim, multi faceted, all pervading, all knowing all seeing etc etc etc ..

And yes..it is genderless! because GOD cannot be bound in the shackles of Gender!!

For purpose of simplifying such an indescribable entity, the dwaitawadis came up with the purusha-prakriti (ideator / executor) duality.

Common Hindus follow a multiplicity of gods...To those that ``dont believe`` in statues, why this fixation to ``destroy`` them? because logically active hate is just the other side of active belief!! it signifies attachment to statues.

I always ask muslims ..why this need to face the kaaba while praying? Is it not a form of statue worship? (attachment to a physical object!!).

No clear answer to that question has come my way except hot air and expletives that dont count anything to me.

Would have loved if the author had been more ``open & inclusive`` in his scope.

Jayen
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#259 Posted by Zeena on April 30, 2007 6:46:17 am
#258
Re;-imransuhail sahib

Excellent!!!
Excellent!!!
Excellent!!!
Post.
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#258 Posted by imransuhail on April 30, 2007 6:06:16 am
``If God is truly unknowable why does humanity spend its entire existence trying to decipher him? Isn’t that what religion is``

<<<<<<<<<<

religion is the spiritual part of one`s life style. The understanding that there is a supernatural being who created all that exists and trying to implement the creators commandments in ones lifestyle so as to be deseving of his reward in the next life. NO religion (no poppular ones atleast) tries to decipher God. Its just stupid... God is known through reasoning and signs. God himslef tells humanity what his few attributes are so that humans might have an idea of him. By definition God cannot be explained to any human due to lack of the human intellect and the inablility of human languages to convey such a message.

The most cmoprehensive explination of God in religious scripture is: God is one, he is the eternal and everlasteing, he doesnt give birth nor was he given birth to, there is no likeness (or example) of him.

Logic tells us that IF something is infinite it cannot be seen. as light needs to bounce off a boundary to be percieved. similarly cannot fe felt or tested or proved etc. It is by definition. No misleading here.

``Is there anything beyond time and space?`` <<<<< such questions have already been answered :) ... stephen hawkings rightly says that since what ever is outside the universe (or multiverse) cannot to experienced and by definition the universe is a closed system therefore whatever is outside the universe is irrelevant and one can say that nothing outside it exists FOR US becuase we can never experince it.


comming to the issue of proving something by science... science works on rational thinking based on known variables. If my laws in wet and my house is wet when i wake up... id say it rained for sure.... not knowing that the fire-man i pissed off last week had showered my house. science cannot always answer everything.... the filure of certain seemilngly perfect theories again and again are proof that science is not perfect and will probaly never be. so how can something impoerfect explain perfection?

when will science explain charge or force??? on a fundamental leve.... maybe never, as we have used these basic things without understanding them to build the buildings of science which will fall down everytime some new discovery is made. ``The unified theory of everything`` will continue to elude sciuentists for a long time (if not forever)
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#257 Posted by bjkumar on April 30, 2007 3:20:53 am

#245 Hamidm2

Stop gushing, my dear! If you and those other chowk fat-cats had been more forthcoming with that wallet - instead of sinking all its contents into the coffers of the Eatallofus Townses of the world, this whole drama of injured withdrawl in stages followed by the equally riveting injured reentry in stages would have been absolutely unnecessary!

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#256 Posted by anil on April 29, 2007 9:17:05 pm
Re: # 253

Hamidm Sahib:

I would love to read your journey from among the believers (if not a believer) to believing in beyond belief.

Farazana:

A belief system is not open to analysis. It needs to be accepted. Your analysis is beyond belief.

God is the best imagination of man. Abstractions can manifest in one messenger, one book, or many idols. For some, good old Bertrand, and Albert not withstanding, an abstraction is a way to think beyond.

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#255 Posted by teshah on April 29, 2007 9:14:27 pm
Re: # 244

FarzanaVersey

``He says, “religion is like flatulence - just because a lot of people suffer from it is no excuse to stink up the place (HamidM)”

This reminds me of an episode with a niece of mine who was preparing for B.A. (English) Exam. She brought a list of usage of English Idioms to be checked by me. I saw the list in which the very first idiom `To break out`, meaning `Phel jaana in Urdu` was used as below:

``Islam has broken out in America``

I said to her, ``It is of course a very factual use of the idiom you have made, dear, but it needs to be a bit explicit by adding, for instance, the phrase, `like aids`.``

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#254 Posted by parthaab on April 29, 2007 8:25:22 pm


`HOLLY KORAN`

``Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God`s religion reigns supreme.`` (Surah 2:190-)

``Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.`` (Surah 2:216)

``Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: `Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity...`` (Surah 3:14, 15)

``The only true faith in God`s sight is Islam.`` (Surah 3:19)




`HOLLY BIBLE`

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man`s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest`s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)




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#253 Posted by hamidm2 on April 29, 2007 8:16:14 pm

What We Must Do

`` We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of a God is a conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.``

........ (Russell 1927)

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#252 Posted by parthaab on April 29, 2007 7:50:15 pm
``Science with religion is lame ; religion without science is blind.
Science without religion is useful, religion with science is useless.``
(Albert Einstein / 1879-1955)

``Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.``
(Napoleon Bonaparte / 1769-1821)

``My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than True.``
(Mahatma Gandhi / 1869-1948)

``[The Bible is] a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.``
(Mark Twain / 1835-1910 / Mark Twain and the Bible)

``So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk.``
(Thomas Edison / 1847-1931)

``Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen.``
(Michel de Montaigne / 1533-1592)

``One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and in this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false. If someone tells me that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, in my opinion he should see a psychiatrist.``
(Francis Crick / English scientist, Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology, 1962 / 1916-2004)

``The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history``
(Noam Chomsky / born in 1928)
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#251 Posted by Pardesi on April 29, 2007 4:28:50 pm
Re: # 246

``It helps us cope with our irrational fears, our hopes and desires. It helps us deal with our impending mortality for which the rational side has nothing hopeful to offer. Without hope life it self becomes unbearable``.

Tahsin, great post.

Corollary of this is that religion is like opium that’s needed some times to get through pains of life – death of loved ones, incurable disease etc. and should be used sparingly if at all. Its minimal use should not interfere with individual’s productive life and relationship with others in the society who like little different drug.

Drug pushers, who promise you great rewards after you are dead serving these drug lords, should be taken out and put to do some productive work themselves.
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#250 Posted by bjkumar on April 29, 2007 1:26:44 pm

#249 (add-on)

Although why the good doc wastes his time dealing with such topics when he could be telling us about quantum well, or something...

...now THAT surely beats me!

How about it, doc Gill?!

YOU dig that well..

And I will encourage the mian Urstruly and zeemax to jump right in!

I think that has a better chance of success than the present work. :) :)

They will be SO lost they will forget to argue.



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#249 Posted by bjkumar on April 29, 2007 1:22:39 pm

#248

But he died anyway!

And (this may shock you, so hold on to that chair!)...

He died quite happy - not knowing what he ``missed out on``!

And if YOU did not tell us repeatedly, heck..WE won`t know either! :) :)
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#248 Posted by Urstruly on April 29, 2007 10:22:52 am

Had Bertrand Russel lived a couple of more years, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have written ``Why I AM a Muslim``. There is hope for every atheist who have lost hope in humanity in divinity:
Khuda se bande ki qurbatoN maiN koi mazahim nahiN hay Asfghar
Jo uth rahe haiN gumaaN ke parday, yeh sab karishme Hazoor (pbuh) ke haiN


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#247 Posted by hamidm2 on April 29, 2007 9:46:36 am
Re: # 246

tehsin, you idiot ...

.... you could have saved yourself the time, and us the pain, if you had bothered to read russell`s ``why i am not a christian`` instead of wasting your time reading stuff written by greek homosexuals ........ russell makes your half-baked `tri-partite` argument much more eloquently :

``Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. ``
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#246 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 29, 2007 8:49:21 am
JUSTIFICATION FOR RELIGION

The central question that needs to be answered is that – given that religion is nothing more then myth and superstition, then why the heck a good 85% of the inhabitants of this planet are so totally devoted to it? Say a thing about their faith or religion and you will have a riot on your hands.

At the risk of harping on the same tune, I believe that the tri-partite theory of soul explains this fairly well.

The rational part of our self (the mind) is actually the doubting Thomas. When ever we are given a story it is the skeptical one, wanting to check and verify for its truth. As we develop our rational side through knowledge, science, mathematics etc. we are making use of disciplines which as a rule are taking us away from the realm of superstition and in other words blind faith.

But then there is the other side of us which is our true being – our self. This is where we determine what we like or dislike. This is where our wishes and desires reside; this is where we are haunted by our fears and our demons. We all know that all these facets of us are irrational but we have no choice but to embrace them, because this is who we are. This is why we say in Punjabi ‘shauk da koi mul nain’ (price is irrelevant when you love something). Same thing applies to our demons, fear is irrational we know it but we succumb to it. I know a lot of adults who would not look under their bed before going to sleep. Let a mouse scamper by my bed and you would see me terrified out of my wits, unable to sleep for hours.

Religion appeals to this part of us. It helps us cope with our irrational fears, our hopes and desires. It helps us deal with our impending mortality for which the rational side has nothing hopeful to offer. Without hope life it self becomes unbearable. So try to take that hope away from people which is given to them by religion and they become unhinged.

So as our rational self expands its reach through science and knowledge it would alley our fears and the realm of religion will continue to diminish. But we will continue to remain saddled with superstition unless and until we determine once and for all – WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH.

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#245 Posted by hamidm2 on April 29, 2007 8:37:54 am
Re: # 244

fv,

..... good to see you here again, even though you just destroyed one of my more profound arguments :)
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#244 Posted by FarzanaVersey on April 29, 2007 6:58:34 am
Much as it is valid to raise doubts about blind belief, it is a bit disconcerting to watch people completely nullify religion. You cannot dismiss an abstraction like faith (in any sphere, I might add); you may question the negative fallout in terms of wars, fanaticism, terrorism, social and gender inequities perpetrated in its name.

But then these are the curses of the demons that reside in humans of any stripe and ideology.

Some of us who profess ‘non-belief’ tend to get too obsessed about religion and our proselytising is far worse because we claim to be rational. For every ten quotations that talk against religion, there will be 20 more that are pro.

Yes, one would not want someone to shove religion down one’s throat, but then one does not want any ideology to be forced upon us, including the much-touted nationalism.

What is nationalism today? Ask the United States. Ask India. Ask Pakistan. Ask XYZ. Everyone hinges its identity on a religious persona – either as its calling card or something to bait.

I find Hamidm’s quote rather curious:

He says, “religion is like flatulence - just because al lot of people suffer from it is no excuse to stink up the place (HamidM)”

Not a lot. All, to varying degrees. It essentially requires ingestion and then lack of proper digestion. Which would bring to the fore an even more curious argument: If it has not been digested well, then according to the quote the religious person has NOT digested the belief and is in fact uncomfortable with it.

All flatus does not cause a stink, which are in fact the “silent killers”. Some are just sound and fury. The following information from Wikipedia is interesting because nowhere is beef, or any red meat, mentioned. Wonder what those suicide bombers have been eating. Blue cheese?

Flatulence-producing foods are typically high in certain polysaccharides (especially oligosaccharides such as inulin) and include beans, lentils, milk, onions, radishes, sweet potatoes, cheese, cashews, Jerusalem artichokes, oats, yeast in breads, and other vegetables. Broccoli, cabbage and other cruciferous vegetables are commonly reputed to not only increase flatulence, but to increase the pungency of the flatus. In beans, endogenous gases seem to arise from complex oligosaccharides (carbohydrates) that are particularly resistant to digestion by mammals, but which are readily digestible by microorganisms that inhabit the digestive tract. These oligosaccharides pass through the upper intestine largely unchanged, and when they reach the lower intestine, bacteria feed on them, producing copious amounts of flatus.[6] In the case of those with lactose intolerance, intestinal bacteria feeding on lactose can give rise to excessive gas production when milk or lactose-containing substances have been consumed.
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#243 Posted by freethinker on April 29, 2007 6:23:39 am
bjkumar: #242:

The point that you`re making was quite eloquently made in the movie ``Inherit the Wind.`` You are probably not comprehending its consequences.

If we do not understand such a basic thing as a ``day`` (as it was understood 2100 years back), how can one insist on imposing Bible or any other scriptural book (which we do not wholly understand by your logic) on us when we do not understand the archaic text? The ``God`` mentioned in the Bible might be entirely a different god from the one that we commonly understand. In this perspective, these books are out of date and should be so treated.

Inn Rasoolo`n ki kitabain taaq mein rakh dau Faraz
Nafrato`n kay yeh saheefay umar bhar dekhay ga kaun

Be well,

Mohammad Gill
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#242 Posted by bjkumar on April 29, 2007 5:53:04 am

(Author) Dr. Gill, you seem to have got it all wrong as usual. :)

[Science drove a nail in the coffin of this biblical story when it determined that the act of creation was not limited to six days as narrated in the Genesis…]

Science did no such thing. The point can be made that a “day” as we traditionally know it, is the time for the earth to make one complete revolution around its own axis. Chances are the earth was not even spinning at the time, or spinning much too fast – so how long a “day” would REALLY be?! Therefore, the Biblical “day” must be something else, of course – perhaps a different scale or order of magnitude altogether.

Bottomline – it makes no sense to start applying the standards of “today” to Biblical “measurements”!

And the same applies to ANY of the “facts” listed in the Bible or any other Books of that nature.

Since the whole idea is supposedly beyond human scope of understanding anyway, it is absolutely useless to try to “measure and verify” using the tools which are meant for different purposes – were developed for a limited domain and are limited by physical laws.

You see sir, in the domain of the spiritual, making use of the laws of Physics is just as successful as picking up a delicate needle with a wet sponge!

The purpose for religion is rooted in some of man’s innate needs and as always – people invent according to what they “need” at a given time. Accordingly, we see different forms and colors of “religion” all over the world. It is a mistake to try to read “physical meaning” in religious text – the effort is doomed to fail at the outset.

I would like to quote here what the interactor “BeeJay” posted on another of your boards about two years ago!

This is essentially a futile debate. The quest for knowledge and the quest for spiritual salvation take place along different dimensions. People who are scientists, by definition, must always be able to question with an open mind. People of faith, must accept certain postulates without questions, because “it is written”. In a debate between the two, each side will score point after point in its own dimension, paying scant attention that it is still making a zero gain from the opponent’s viewpoint.

The spirit of objective scientific enquiry is the farthest thing from the minds of the proponents of “natural design” (which in my view is the new, improved reincarnation of the “science of creation”) and other such theories. These proponents don’t really care if the theory is scientifically sound, they want to ensure that the faith itself never gets questioned, directly or indirectly. This is not a new phenomenon. For example, the fact that evolution had widespread support among scientists did not stop the state of Tennessee from prosecuting and convicting John Stokes in 1925 (the monkey trial). Ever further back, it did not prevent the Roman Catholic church from prosecuting Galileo (1632) for proposing that the sun was not stationary.

The bottom-line is: when established religion perceives a threat to itself (no matter how remote and indirect) from any publications, lectures, teachings, or even random expressions of free speech (e.g., Taslima Nasrin, Rushdie, etc.) it treats it as an assault on its basic reason for existence and pulls no punches in fighting back. Intellectuals may consider such a knee-jerk reaction foolish, but unfortunately, smart people are vastly outnumbered by the other kind.



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#241 Posted by zeemax on April 29, 2007 2:44:23 am
#240 by khuram

...and you feel yourself moving with the speed of 150 km/hrs in a single step...

This is true. Kharbooza churri par girey ya churri karboozey par ... Is it physics or perception?

It is also true what you say in #237 that ``In a physical world, any real “point” will be having non-zero positive length.``

What`s your ultimate point? Or do you have conclusions which you would perhaps deem appropriate to share with us? I mean ... with your arsenal you can clobber anyone with solid arguments on BOTH science AND philosophy, but are these just for argument`s sake? Or is there something else? Are you getting at something which you will eventually tell us?

Regards
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#240 Posted by khuram on April 29, 2007 2:12:36 am
Re: # 238

In order to know for sure, you can stand on a Railway Track,,, till the fast speed train comes and you feel yourself moving with the speed of 150 km/hrs in a single step from the previous static position. Plz don`t be afraid ... just kidding!!!!!
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#239 Posted by zeemax on April 29, 2007 2:06:42 am
#222 by GT

haha GT ... what a wonderful post ...
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#238 Posted by zeemax on April 29, 2007 1:57:32 am
#206 by khuram,

Thanks!

However I would only know for sure if I was a raindrop.
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#237 Posted by khuram on April 29, 2007 1:03:03 am
# GT

You need to do a lot more work than convincing idiots like me in chowk. There are excellent journals in philosophy which publish work on logical systems. You may want to send your stuff there, take the comments of the referees seriously and thereby advance your work. Finally, you may end up with a cogent and complete system of analysis. And then, I shall proudly let my grandchildren know that I had once communicated with you!

Hey ... I am very selfish. Here I am only increasing the volume of my work in such a hot and cold environment. Hahaha....!!!!! By the way ... it is also a characteristic of Philosophy that most people really do not understand it. People really had not understood atomic theory of Democritus in his times. Sometimes even science community fails to understand pure experimental works as well. Mendal had discovered laws of hereditary on the basis of fine experimental and mathematical works. But science community of his time had rejected his work. His work could get any recognition only about a century after his death. There is lesson for common audience and general science community. They should listen carefully to those who are doing some original works in their times. Otherwise time will blame them.


``There cannot be infinite discrete numbers between 0 and 1``.

You may well be right. But if I take rationals to be discrete, as I can count them through a one to one and onto mapping with the set of integers, then there are indeed infinite discrete numbers between 0 and 1. So your frame of reference and mine are very different. We cannot discuss much and can only agree to disagree on our frames of references.


I already have dealt with the issue that a smaller and a larger ``line`` have exact one to one correspondendence between their respective number of ``points``. I made diagrams to see if really there was such one to one and onto mapping of points or not.

The actual mistake in official theory lies in the definition of ``point`` in Geometry. Geometry considers ``point`` as a ``space less`` particular location. Since this ``point`` is space less, so it is having no ``length`` at all. The same Geometry considers ``line`` as a linier combination of ``points``. The same Geometry also considers that a line possesses a non-zero length but it doesn’t possess any width. But if the constituents of line i.e. “points” had no length at all then how just the combination of those “points” could result in any non-zero length…???

Anyways, this definition of “point” may be right definition in pure Abstract Mathematics. But this is not right for our physical world because there can be no space less physical entity in our spatial world. A ``physical point`` would be having some ``space``. In fact, all the ``points`` would be having same or uniform non-zero space. Let`s say the length of one point is 1 and the length of a finite line is 100. It means that this line has only and only 100 (discrete) points. Points of this line CANNOT have one to one and onto mapping with the points of that line whose length is 200 or infinite.

What is the mistake of official theory…???

The official theory actually draws one to one and onto mapping not between the individual points of a shorter and a longer (or infinite) line. It actually draws one to one and onto mapping between fractional parts of individual points of shorter line with the complete individual points of longer or infinite line.

Now I give you a task. Consider the “length” of a “point” to be 1. Now take two lines. First line being shorter and second line longer.

Length of first line = 100

Length of second line = 200

In this way, there are 100 “points” in first line and there are 200 “points” in second line. Now try to draw one to one and onto mapping between all the points of first line with all the points of second line. Be careful that do not take fractional or overlapping parts of individual points of shorter line!

Believe me, you will not be able to do it, because it is an impossible task. So come out of the fantasy of old Abstract Mathematics where length of “point” is zero and sum of many zeros (i.e. a “line”) is non-zero positive length. In a physical world, any real “point” will be having non-zero positive length.

This is not the case of just difference of frames of references. It is a matter of clear-cut mistake of 0 + 0 + 0 = 3

Regards!
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#236 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 28, 2007 9:26:18 pm
Re: # 156 Urstruly

It`s amazing to see how 3 words ``We don`t know`` can be wrapped with so much ooh and aah.

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#235 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 28, 2007 9:23:09 pm
Re: # 203 Folio

No, it has nothing to do with Lokayata or Buddhist Mahayan. Nothing that serious. It`s just a parody, called Mahayan.

BTW, you may like the new Mahabharat at http://aashraya.blogspot.com/2005/11/vyasas-dissertation.html

(there are only 8 chapters yet).

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#234 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 28, 2007 9:15:14 pm
Congratulations Hamidm2 saheb. You are out on parole.

But for how long?



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#233 Posted by Zeena on April 28, 2007 9:07:08 pm
#209 by zeemax on April 27, 2007 11:24pm PT
#202 by hamidm2

[[That`s GREAT to know ... besides, even though you may not have enough electricity to light your bulb (as Zeena suggests), you`ll always get `oil` for your `laltain` ... :)]]

LOL......huns huns kii stomachache hu gaiaa haiy...........hahahaha

zeemax

You are pretty funny....oh, gosh....

I guess you`re right hamdim2 needs oil...sometimes too, much of a voltage also fuses the brain light bulb.......b/c some people won`t have enough of electricity and electric capacity to bear God(Almighty)`s ligt...you gave me the final clue...

So, I think we shouldn`t blame hamdim2 fo ranything....the man is innocent......his brain`s electric capacity is deficient to see the actual ligt....

hamdim2 Sir
Be happy where ever you are with your fused light bulb.......I am sorry I didn`t realize that God(Almighty)`s light would be too, much for your dark mind to handle...............
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#232 Posted by Zeena on April 28, 2007 8:59:56 pm
#212
Re:-hamidm2 Sir
[[[ i too will sit with bjkumar under a pipal tree - butt naked, with ashes in my hair - shouting ``allah hoo!`` and screaming obscenities at the children who torment me ...............]]

LOL...................for the first time you made sense.....I loved your post...really. and haan keep working out your neurons...gingko buloba is also better to sharpen them....100% money back guranteed success.......

Oh, wait a minute.....what did you say,``Allah hoo``.....so you and bjkumar are already converted back to Islam......wonderful! it looks like you have changed the batteries and your new light bulb is working..........keep it up. I am still hopefullllll.............

#211
Re:-bjkumar sahib
I always knew you`re writer..........quite funny play script......hahaha


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#231 Posted by teshah on April 28, 2007 8:50:06 pm
Re: # 207

This was what I had expected from zeena ji as what hamidm2 says passes above her mini brain which is over active with little intelligence. In fact what makes women lovable, including of course, zeena ji, are their vacua as we love `kharbooza`, (minus its seeds) , which are very sweet these days.
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#230 Posted by ZahraJ on April 28, 2007 8:29:55 pm
Freethinker -

[They began to know about themselves and what they were doing – they were not only conscious but also self-conscious. The first word, the first laugh were heard. The first paintings were made. The first sense of a destiny beyond – with the first signs of hope, for these people buried their dead with ritual. The first prayers were made to the One who made All-That Is and All-That-Is-Becoming – the first experiences of goodness, beauty and truth – but also of their opposites, for human beings were free.]

Nice. Very nice. The life-cycle of events seems to be real beautiful and eye-opening. I guess we`ve started taking things for granted.
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#229 Posted by teshah on April 28, 2007 7:14:49 pm
Re: # 186

zeena

You say:

``Believer is not just to say that you believe in one God(Almighty), believer is to have a love of God(Almighty) and to have love of all living beings(the creation of God)...``

Do you mean we can love `kafirs` also?

I don`t know dear Zeena whether you are a `kafir` or not to be loved as per words of Ghalib:

``Mohabbat mein nahein kuchh farq jine aur marne mein
Usi ko dekh kar jite hein jis `kafir` pih dam nikle``
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#228 Posted by teshah on April 28, 2007 6:07:43 pm
Re: # 177

Zeena Ji

Sorry dear Zeena for my post which you took so seriously though it was not addressed to you. It was a talk between two men which you overheard and got so overheated and interested in Mullah of Mardan that you keep on repeating that post though I did not tell you any thing about the Mullah of Mardan and his services yet.

Excuse me you talk too much of morality and religion in the same breath as though these are synonymous terms when actually these are contradictions in terms. Morality in its true essence is essentially secularism par excellence as a dogmatic religion necessarily circumscribes it for its own ends which may invariably be questionable morally.
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#227 Posted by parthaab on April 28, 2007 6:02:53 pm

``Science with religion is lame ; religion without science is blind.
Science without religion is useful, religion with science is useless.``
(Albert Einstein / 1879-1955)

``Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.``
(Napoleon Bonaparte / 1769-1821)

``My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than True.``
(Mahatma Gandhi / 1869-1948)

``[The Bible is] a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.``
(Mark Twain / 1835-1910 / Mark Twain and the Bible)

``So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk.``
(Thomas Edison / 1847-1931)

``Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen.``
(Michel de Montaigne / 1533-1592)

``One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and in this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false. If someone tells me that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, in my opinion he should see a psychiatrist.``
(Francis Crick / English scientist, Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology, 1962 / 1916-2004)

``The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history``
(Noam Chomsky / born in 1928)

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#226 Posted by khurram on April 28, 2007 5:01:16 pm
Re: GT,

I don`t know why that website refers to 2 infinities. It`s besides his point, which he already made, that God cannot do anything that is a contradiction. `Create` and `Infinite mass` already involve contradiction.
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#225 Posted by GT on April 28, 2007 2:43:47 pm
Re: # 224 by Tehsinabbasi,

OK,

So SHE is Kali!
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#224 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 28, 2007 2:38:27 pm
#222 by GT

“that the experience is God”

No man! That was no God. Actually it was a Goddess and her name is Kali – and that churrail has enchanted you.
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#223 Posted by hamidm2 on April 28, 2007 2:14:35 pm
Re: # 222


GT,

shouldn`t you be fortifying yourself with toddy ?............ i don`t think the mexicans have heard of cricket ............ but i do agree that god can be found in breast-cracks resplendent with colors of holi ! .... people just look in all the wrong places ...

.......... go sri lanka ! ....... inspite of what the fool tehsin says about desis neglecting their body and soul (obviously the scrawny chicken has not heard of gama pehalwan), i think they have a pretty good shot ............
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#222 Posted by GT on April 28, 2007 12:59:40 pm
Re: # 212 by hamidm2,

Hamid:

It is quite late and the sun is about the set in some time. And I am well forified by 100% agave as Sri Lanka are into the chase (if you do not know what I am talking about, do not worry). You see it is the agave which always tells me that the `rational` world that I live in is stupid (Lahoreviakuwait I wouldn`t listen to her on week days). But today I can`t help but give in. Your friend, the idiot Tehsin, enchants me into the unknown Abida, a voice which reminds me of that breast-crack with colours of Holi and resplendant laughter that I cannot talk about. For it will be classified, by the rationalists, as either sexual desire or `love`. The problem, Hamid, is that it is neither! But, Hamid, do allow me to say that the experience is God. And I shall dutifully ignore Her throughout the week as I shall make money to pay my gardener.

Regards.
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#221 Posted by GT on April 28, 2007 12:19:19 pm
Re: # 205 by khuram,

The earlier post was hastily written and sounds a bit rude. That was not my intention at all. I really do not understand many things that you write. This in no way means that you are wrong. For example, you write:

``There cannot be infinite discrete numbers between 0 and 1``.

You may well be right. But if I take rationals to be discrete, as I can count them through a one to one and onto mapping with the set of integers, then there are indeed infinite discrete numbers between 0 and 1. So your frame of reference and mine are very different. We cannot discuss much and can only agree to disagree on our frames of references.

But comming back to the fact that you may be right. You need to do a lot more work than convincing idiots like me in chowk. There are excellent journals in philosophy which publish work on logical systems. You may want to send your stuff there, take the comments of the referees seriously and thereby advance your work. Finally, you may end up with a cogent and complete system of analysis. And then, I shall proudly let my grandchildren know that I had once communicated with you!
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#220 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 28, 2007 12:18:10 pm
#213 by parthaab

“He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind”

Indian holy men both Hindu and Muslim saints have used this method for finding the “truth” for ever. But this method in a way ignores other parts of us which is heart and our body. I say heart because yes a powerful melody, music or an artistic form can propel us towards “truth” as well. Similarly if one plays a sport, or an instrument or dances at a level where it becomes art at the highest level again we are approaching the “truth”.

But Indian thought’s obsession with the mind at the complete neglect of both body and soul, wouldn’t you say has been the fundamental problem that India has remained poverty stricken forever. It never valued the material (which would feed the body) or for that matter appreciate high art which could feed the soul. These were all secondary, lower variety pursuits, which were frowned upon by the upper classes (caste).
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#219 Posted by hamidm2 on April 28, 2007 11:26:43 am


god made him do it

A car bomb has killed at least 55 people and injured about 70 in the Iraqi city of Karbala, in the second such attack in two weeks.
The city houses two of Shia Islam`s holiest shrines and reports say the bomb went off on a busy street as people headed to pray.

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#218 Posted by GT on April 28, 2007 10:51:53 am
Re: # 205 by khuram:

I am sorry, my post was addressed to the other khurram. I do not understand almost everything that you write.

For example I do not understand ``finite line``.

Regards.
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#217 Posted by hamidm2 on April 28, 2007 10:43:11 am


god made him do it :

A suicide bomber has killed at least 22 people and injured Pakistan`s interior minister at a rally in North West Frontier Province, police say.

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#216 Posted by Folio on April 28, 2007 8:26:04 am
A spoof on BJK`s post. All characters in this spoof are fictitious. Any resemblacne in names or otherwise is a mere coincidence ;-)

Enter Xena the Keyboard Zeehadi warrior princess (seething with anger and adjusting her runner panty)

Xena: I am gonna behead Arjan and H2O (twirling her kitchen knife while rolling her eyes at amazement)

H2O: ...my arse. people like u shud have a grain of brain to see the real world.

Arjan: Goatbrain Z, eat some brain & kalezi fry in the kadai & drink some sherbat to calm down.

H2O: ....macaca arjan! you better worship ur own phallus before u come in between me and xena, the born again zeehadi princess.

Xena: I saw Al Lah mia and prophet Moh having fun in heaven with 72 houris. I want my man to to be like `em...Inshallah I wud become one of those houris one day..Inshallah.

Arjan and H2O try to say something......immediately Xena thows her 8-inch kitchen knife towards Arjan that missed to slash his phallis by a whisker. She leaves the room in anger at the anit-Islamic behaviour of a H2O Mirzai and the urine drinking Hindoo Arjan.

Enter Kaleem. Kaleem consoles Xena and declares to all those around him.

`Though I oppose beheadings I support Xena`s right to behead a macaca Hindoo Arjan and dimsum eater like H2O.`

(Curtain closes).

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#215 Posted by hamidm2 on April 28, 2007 8:15:05 am
Re: # 214

parthab,

...... please add this to your list :

religion is like flatulence - just because al lot of people suffer from it is no excuse to stink up the place (HamidM)

thanks
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#214 Posted by parthaab on April 28, 2007 7:55:12 am


``Science with religion is lame ; religion without science is blind.
Science without religion is useful, religion with science is useless.``
(Albert Einstein / 1879-1955)

``Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.``
(Napoleon Bonaparte / 1769-1821)

``My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than True.``
(Mahatma Gandhi / 1869-1948)

``[The Bible is] a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.``
(Mark Twain / 1835-1910 / Mark Twain and the Bible)

``So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk.``
(Thomas Edison / 1847-1931)

``Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen.``
(Michel de Montaigne / 1533-1592)

``One of the most frightening things in the Western world, and in this country in particular, is the number of people who believe in things that are scientifically false. If someone tells me that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, in my opinion he should see a psychiatrist.``
(Francis Crick / English scientist, Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology, 1962 / 1916-2004)

``The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history``
(Noam Chomsky / born in 1928)

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#213 Posted by parthaab on April 28, 2007 7:41:06 am
J. Krishnamurthi in 1929:


```Truth is a pathless land`. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique.He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.

Man has built in himself images as a fence of security, religious, political, personal.

These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs. The burden of these images dominates man`s thinking, his relationships and his daily life. These images are the causes of our problems for they divide man from man. His perception of life is shaped by the concepts already established in his mind. The content of his consciousness is his entire existence. This content is common to all humanity. The individuality is the name, the form and superficial culture he acquires from tradition and environment. The uniqueness of man does not lie in the superficial but in complete freedom from the content of his consciousness,which is common to all mankind. So he is not an individual.

Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man`s pretence that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity. `


``For centuries we have been spoon-fed by our teachers, by our authorities, by our books, our saints. We say, `Tell me all about it—what lies beyond the hills and the mountains and the earth?` and we are satisfied with their descriptions, which means that we live on words and our life is shallow and empty. We are second hand people. We have lived on what we have been told, either guided by our inclinations, our tendencies, or compelled to accept by circumstances and environment. We are the result of all kinds of influences and there is nothing new in us, nothing that we have discovered for ourselves; nothing original, pristine, clear. ``

Freedom From The Known (1969)


``That is the first thing to learn—not to seek. When you seek you are really only window-shopping. The question of whether or not there is a God or truth or reality, or whatever you like to call it, can never be answered by books, by priests, philosophers or saviours. Nobody and nothing can answer the question but you yourself and that is why you must know yourself. Immaturity lies only in total ignorance of self. To understand yourself is the beginning of wisdom.``

Freedom From The Known (1969)


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#212 Posted by hamidm2 on April 28, 2007 7:05:05 am


zeena beti,

..... i think you have made the correct diagnosis - now can you suggest where i can find a battery and a light bulb for my ``dark mind`` so that i can see the light of ``God (Almighty)`` ?..........

...............but wait a minute ! ............ if the light bulb of my mind is stronger than the weak light that god puts out, then i won`t be able to see him - now would i? ........ so beti, you see, in order for a person to see god`s light he or she has to have a rather low powered bulb in his own mind .........also you have to be surrounded by darkness to see the light of god - that is why prophets and al qaeda leaders go into dark caves to look for god ..........actually people whose light bulb is totally fused - mad men and lunatics - seem to see god the best ............ maybe one day, i too will sit with bjkumar under a pipal tree - butt naked, with ashes in my hair - shouting ``allah hoo!`` and screaming obscenities at the children who torment me ...............
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#211 Posted by bjkumar on April 28, 2007 5:42:15 am
(Enter the Zeena and Hamidm2)

Zeena(Z): Make your IRRATIONAL mind work for you,

Hamidm2(H2): It feels a bit blocked!

Z: work it out which is completely blocked to be lil rational...

H2: I got to work it out so it becomes more rational…

Z: your every post on front page is nothing except full of sarcasms … insulting Prophets, insulting everyone else....insulting Pakistan......

H2: Zeena Beti…

Z: The biggest problem with you is you have lost the adaptable capacity of your neurons which have become extremely rigid by the deposition of constant hatred and negative energies against God(Almighty)...

H2: (Looks heart-broken, at a loss for words)

Z: You are acting like a little god of demons of chowk.com where everything you say is final....

H2: (to self) I liked the Tauheed better!

Z: NO one will stop you for whatever you are.......but, one request please, allow your recessed neurons to rejuvenate, if, they`ll continue receding @ this very rate, chances are you will not be able to visit chowk.com 24/7 and chowk.com won`t be able to bear such a great loss of god of all demons................

H2: I knew there was a positive side to it.

Z:Your mind`s bulb is fused and your mind`s battery is dead.......Let there be light!


H2: No thanks!

(Exit Zeena and H2)

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#210 Posted by bjkumar on April 28, 2007 5:30:00 am

#208

Hamidm2 mian,

Looks like my little sis wants you to get working on those neurons!

On the double, too!

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#209 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 11:24:52 pm
#202 by hamidm2

....... in any case, as long as the bootleggers are in business in islamabad, i have no reason to change my plans ............

That`s GREAT to know ... besides, even though you may not have enough electricity to light your bulb (as Zeena suggests), you`ll always get `oil` for your `laltain` ... :)
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#208 Posted by Zeena on April 27, 2007 10:56:57 pm
hamdim2
Sir
Besides, search for your lost vision via this light bulb............May be you`ll be able to see God(Almighty)........LOL
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#207 Posted by Zeena on April 27, 2007 10:47:00 pm
Re#192 hamdim2.......
Sir,

With all due respect...

Make your IRRATIONAL mind work for you, work it out which is completely blocked to be lil rational...your every post on front page is nothing except full of sarcasms against religions, against those who disagree with you, insulting Prophets, insulting everyone else....insulting Pakistan......

The biggest problem with you is you have lost the adaptable capacity of your neurons which have become extremely rigid by the deposition of constant hatred and negative energies against God(Almighty)...

You are acting like a little god of demons of chowk.com where everything you say is final....

Honestly, all your posts are just(OOT PATANG) with no sense at all....Your neurons have lost the capacity to let you think beyond your lil brain and your lil weak self................You are always challenging God(Almighty)`s existence.........Please, DO......You are a non believer......please, CONTINUE....

You are insulting all Prophets in every post of your`s ...please, DON`T STOP.......you`re a lil sarcastic god of all demons......please, BE MORE......

NO one will stop you for whatever you are.......but, one request please, allow your recessed neurons to rejuvenate, if, they`ll continue receding @ this very rate, chances are you will not be able to visit chowk.com 24/7 and chowk.com won`t be able to bear such a great loss of god of all demons................

Your mind`s bulb is fused and your mind`s battery is dead.......your mind is unable to guide your body with bright ideas....please, fit new battery and new bulb in your dark mind and then you`ll be able to see the light of God(Almighty)........................In case you forgot....this is called light bulb which your mind needs......



No thanks
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#206 Posted by khuram on April 27, 2007 10:32:41 pm
# 195 by zeemax

khurram/khuram,

I don`t know which one is which because it`s tough to find that double `r`, but one of you had asked I think Dr. Sohail (to which he never replied) whether he thought that the raindrop on his windshield traveled at the same speed as the windshield. Is that correct?

I shall be grateful at what the answer is ... Thanks. :)


I think it should be me ... with single r. But the question was put to Gill Sahib, not Dr. Sohail Sahib.

I am having the opinion that the speed of raindrop suddenly changes, in single discrete step; from lets say zero to 100 km/hrs when it collides with the windscreen of a moving car.

Gill sahib had tried to oppose my opinion but without any solid or to the point reason. So I am still stict to my opinion.

Regards!
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#205 Posted by khuram on April 27, 2007 10:23:09 pm
# 191 by GT

1. The set of all positive integers (which is contably infinite) is smaller (in cardinality) than the set of reals between 0 and 1.


May be true. But I doubt in the ``real`` existence of real numbers. If you have gone through my previous interacts of some recent articles of Gill Sahib, you might be knowing that I am trying to show that reality is ``discrete`` and not ``continuous``. Continuous numbers can exist only in certain abstract mathematical relations but any such kind of continuity cannot exist in our Physical world. There cannot be infinite discrete numbers between 0 and 1.


2. The set of reals between 0 and 1 is equal (in the sense that there exists a one to one and onto mapping) to the set of reals between 0 and 2.

Actually this one to one an onto mapping of points is considered to be existing even between a finite line and an infinite line. It means that according to mathematics (theory of Jorge Kanour; 1845-1918), the numbers of points on a finite line have its number of points exactly equal to the number of points of an infinite line.

You can see that this theory is older than the emergence of Quantum Physics. I no more consider this theory to be valid. A finite line must be having finite number of discrete points and an infinite line must be having infinite number of discrete points. There cannot be one to one correspondence between finite points and infinite points. Chowk scientists should know that Quantum Physics has even calculated the minimum possible (or absolute minimum) distance. There is no anything like perfect continuity in our physical world.

Geometry still uses old Greek concept of point. It is defined something like an abstract point which occupies no space. The same Geometry defines `line` something like as a ``combination of points``. What I think is that this pure abstract mathematics cannot be applied to the physical world. If a `point` has no space at all then how any `line` (i.e. combination of points) can have any space...??? I think that a combination of `spaceless` points cannot have any length. Abstract Mathematics says that a `line` has length but it does not have any width. Anyways, there is need to have a Quantum or Discrete Geometry as well.

A line can be started from a definite point and can be considered to be extending to infinity on one direction. Such a line can be considered to be `infinite` line. But remember that this `infinite` line has a `definite` origin. This line is infinite only on onward side but this line is not infinite on backward side. I had assumed the same thing in my previous interact.

On the other hand, there also can be a line which can be considered to be extending infinitly towads both sides. This line is also infinite. But this line is infinite towards onward and backward side both. There can be one directional infinity and there also can be two directional infinity. There can be mutiple directional infinity as well and also there can be an all directional infinity.

One type of infinity can be smaller or larger than other one. Meaning of infinity is Never Ending on one or more sides. A thing which can end on all sides(like a finite line), cannot have never ending points in it.

So what puzzles me is: do we really not know anything about 1/0?


If you have to divide Rs.100 between zero people, it only means that you are not going to disburse any sum to anyone at all. You can distribute Rs.100 to as many (i.e. never ending) zero persons you like.1/0 is only Abstract Mathematics. It is good only in abstractions. It cannot be as it is applied to real physical world.
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#204 Posted by Folio on April 27, 2007 1:23:53 pm
For those who missed the msg of the Sentinelese video:

All the Abrahamic religions are proved wrong with this live evidence.

The Eden of Sentinel Island and the people inhabit there present us a few truths. We can learn many lessons including one on our own evolution to this stage.

OK. Of all the most significant point is that God as we understand from Abrahamic religions is a BOGUS entity.




Abrahamic religions say that after eating the forbidden fruit the first couple came (representative of mankind) came to know abt `sharm`. So they covered themselves from then on.

Fact: Sentinelese dont know `sharm` coz they didnt cover their genitals.











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#203 Posted by Folio on April 27, 2007 1:02:28 pm
Subhash Joshi Saheb,

I know abt the Lokayata literature. I read some chapters. It`s out and out athiestic literature.


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#202 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2007 11:50:33 am
Re: # 201

no, zeemax .... i have faith in the people - once they see the face of evil under that niqab, they will realize how ugly it is ............. in any case, as long as the bootleggers are in business in islamabad, i have no reason to change my plans ............
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#201 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 10:52:37 am
#200 by hamidm2,

So hamidm, I guess you would have by now altered your plans to retire in Pakistan. I mean, with the Jamia Hafsa stuff and all that ... Have you ? :)
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#200 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2007 10:10:23 am


Re: # 197


GT,

..... it was one of huxley`s character`s in one of his novels ........ huxley, i believe, was an atheist .........

......... it is just one of the many silly arguments religionists (fools, in my book) use to prove the existence of god .......... the most pernicious of these arguments is the one based on `personal experience` similar to the one used by prophets (charlatans, in my book) like mo, moses and jesus ........ ``i flew on a winged horse and talked to the big kahuna in heaven``...... or , `` there was this instantaneous combustion, the bush burned, and the man spoke to me`` ........... or (this one really takes the cake) ``god is my dad`` ............ yea, and my grandma is an astronaut and i just saw urstruly fly past the window on a pig !

...... as sam harris writes: ``We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them `religious`; otherwise they are likely to be called `mad`, `psychotic` or `delusional .............Clearly there is sanity in numbers``
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#199 Posted by rahul_capri on April 27, 2007 10:01:07 am
I like the Calvin and Hobbes proof:exists because has not tried to contact.
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#198 Posted by samar1982 on April 27, 2007 9:37:26 am
Re: # 193, hamidm2,

Sir, you don`t need an arduous (huxley) to prove all this. Even if you have either of the two i.e. infinity or zero you don`t need anything to prove everything, off course pertaining to god or maths. As humans have both they can use infinity to prove god is and zero to prove god is not. I wonder why arduous extravagantly used both.

Samar
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#197 Posted by GT on April 27, 2007 9:35:50 am
Re: # 193 by hamidm,

hamid,

Is this true? I mean this huxley guy actually wrore this?
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#196 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 8:56:27 am
#190 by GT,

GT: There was no typo. But there are greater minds at work here so ... later ... :)
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#195 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 8:54:22 am
khurram/khuram,

I don`t know which one is which because it`s tough to find that double `r`, but one of you had asked I think Dr. Sohail (to which he never replied) whether he thought that the raindrop on his windshield traveled at the same speed as the windshield. Is that correct?

I shall be grateful at what the answer is ... Thanks. :)
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#194 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2007 8:52:55 am


i like my proof better !
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#193 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2007 8:51:49 am


aldous huxley`s proof


m/zero = infinity ... where m is any positive number

multiplying both sides by zero:

m = infinity(zero)

this proves the creation of the universe by an infinite power out of nothing ............

therfore god exists !
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#192 Posted by hamidm2 on April 27, 2007 8:27:26 am


after reading the brilliant posts by zeena, i am convinced that god exists .......... she is certainly not the product of evolution and natural selection and had to be created by a bumbling creator ........... and it really doesn`t matter if he can`t conjure up a stone so heavy that even he can`t lift it ............ we do not need any further proof of his existence !
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#191 Posted by GT on April 27, 2007 8:26:56 am

Khuram:

Your friend directed me to a web site which claimed that there cannot be two different kinds of infinity. You know this infinity thing is so puzzling for me. You tend to know something about it but not everything. Consider the following:

1. The set of all positive integers (which is contably infinite) is smaller (in cardinality) than the set of reals between 0 and 1.

2. The set of reals between 0 and 1 is equal (in the sense that there exists a one to one and onto mapping) to the set of reals between 0 and 2.

3. The attributes of an infinite set can be changed leaving the set still infinite. Consider the following:
There is a hotel (set) with an infinite number of rooms all of which are occupied. A new guest comes along. The manager can accomodate him very easily. He asks the guest in room no. 1 to go to 2, the guest in 2 to go to 3 and so on and so forth. The new guest is accomodated in room no 1. Note that the attribute of the hotel is not changed - it is still totally occupied. But the manager can accomodate the guest, without kicking anyone out, and create any finite number of vacancies that he wants. In such a case the attribute of the hotel changes!

So what puzzles me is: do we really not know anything about 1/0?
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#190 Posted by GT on April 27, 2007 8:07:06 am
Re: # 184 by zeemax,

Zee:

Well, if that is what you mean then you are not a HINUD, pardon me. Actually, I remember your earlier assertions. So there must have been a typo when you stated ``God IS the Universe ... ``. And this is what surprised me.

On a different note, you see there are many questions the answers to which we do not know. However, it may be that we know that the answers are different. In such cases, we know something about the answers (otherwise how could we differentiate). So this darned ``do not know`` thing is a bit difficult to define also!
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#189 Posted by samar1982 on April 27, 2007 6:46:40 am
Hey guys, my dear senior members of Chowk,

Here is a poem.


To think about God is to disobey God,
Since God wanted us not to know him,
Which is why he didn’t reveal himself to us…

Let’s be simple and calm,
Like the trees and streams,
And God will love us, making us
Us even as the trees are trees
And the streams are streams,
And will give us greenness in the spring, which is its season,
And a river to go to when we end…
And he’ll give us nothing more, since to give us
more would make us less us. (Fernando Pessoa)

Samar

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#188 Posted by samar1982 on April 27, 2007 6:14:49 am
Re: # 182, ballukhan,

...in short, if you are nice you should look nice too.

Samar
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#187 Posted by khurram on April 27, 2007 6:13:26 am
Re #181 khuram,
I was just pointing out that whenever something relative is referenced it implies something absolute.
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#186 Posted by Zeena on April 27, 2007 6:06:41 am
#182 ballukhan
Re:-
[[The prime example being all those mullahs who claim to be true believers and conspire to kill and terrorize innocent citizens the world over - even their peity does not absolve them of their depravity and criminal liabilities.]]]

Exactly, this is the main point I am trying to make as well, but, in a different tone....

My whole point is , If, a believer breaks chains of morality in any sense, either by harrassing others,killing innocent beings or terrorizing others is NOT considered a believer.Then he/she becomes NON BELIEVER( free thinker).......just think about it.

Believer is not just to say that you believe in one God(Almighty), believer is to have a love of God(Almighty) and to have love of all living beings(the creation of God)...

Believer is to follow all the moral values via self disciplining...

Once you break this self discipline, you are no more believer.............you are free thinker...........even if you claim that you are religious or you are believer.................thanks
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#185 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 3:10:15 am
#154 by kaalchakra

... (zee, is that put accurately?)

Well actually, I had said Kufr, not Shirk .... Shirk is really mild stuff :)
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#184 Posted by zeemax on April 27, 2007 3:01:46 am
#152 by GT Re: # 132

First Urstruly and then you! All you closet HINUDS. Wait till masadi sees what you have written!

Sigh ... GT, what I said in #132 (as also earlier on another board) meant that everything is God`s, while in Hinduism everything is God. What`s a little apostrophe ... right?
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#183 Posted by khuram on April 27, 2007 12:22:46 am
Re: # 181

Perhaps ... you might be talking like who was before the first being like God... etc. etc.

I personally think that this universe cannot be like infinite period old. It can happen that time might not had any existence before the start of time. I had explained in another of my interacts that time cannot exist in complete empty space. Time started with the emergence of material objects. And material objects cannot be infinite period old. Its proof is that if material objects are infinite period old, then it means that up to our time, an infinite period of time has been passed. But as a matter of fact, infinite period of time cannot be ``passed``. Only a finite time period can be ``passed``.

In this connection, Aristotle considers ``matter`` and ``form`` to be eternal. Matter without form or form without matter is just meaningless. Such a separate existence of form and matter could be the characteristic of that early universe when time didn`t exist.

According to Aristotle, the unification of matter with form is equivalent to ``movement``. The first ever such movement required a ``Prime Mover``. Aristotle has conceived this ``Prime Mover`` as a Non-Physical and perfectly Abstract entity.

That Abstract Entity, with the context of our modern knowlewdge, could be the ultimate form of ``attraction`` between matter and form. This attraction might had remained in operation but without any significance, in that early universe where time didn`t exist.

Time started when that ultimate attraction first significantly affected separately existing matter and form and so first ever unification of matter and form emerged.

Whatever are the characteristics of existing universe, are the ultimate outcome of that ultimate attraction, which acted as ``Prime Mover`` at the start of Universe,,, and must be functioning right now as well.

Regards!
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#182 Posted by ballukhan on April 27, 2007 12:01:26 am
Zeena Bi,

I am sorry to see some persons using abusive language against female interactors. I do not intend to show any disrespect against you or your faith in the almighty. I was only making a point that EVEN if some one displays great faith in the almighty and claims to follow the sunnah, but breaks the secular laws, that are based upon the golden rule, would NOT be considered as a morally superior being in the modern world. In fact they would be liable to punishment and penalties. The prime example being all those mullahs who claim to be true believers and conspire to kill and terrorize innocent citizens the world over - even their peity does not absolve them of their depravity and criminal liabilities.
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#181 Posted by khuram on April 26, 2007 11:43:44 pm
# 170 by Khurram

Sorry, I could not get intended analogy even after reasonable ser khapai. Shall be thankful if you explain.
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#180 Posted by masadi on April 26, 2007 11:37:56 pm
In #179 read << and thus seize being God >>> as << and thus cease being God >>
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#179 Posted by masadi on April 26, 2007 11:13:33 pm
<<< If God is Absolute then can God create a stone so heavy, that even He wouldn`t be able to lift it >>>>

Mian, if you plagiarize absurd questions from Russell, cite the reference, or at the very least copy the question correctly. The question in its original form talked about ``If God is Omnipotent`` and not ``If God is Absolute``. The question is inherently flawed, it is similar to saying ``A square, a circle``. When a thing is a square it means it is not a circle. So nothing, not even God can claim a square, a circle, comprendey?

In the Quran you will never find a claim saying `` God can do anything``, that would imply that he could become a rat and thus seize being God. Such a feat God cannot accomplish based on his ``nature`` as God. On the contrary, the Quran says, ``Over all things, God has power``- which logically is a completely different concept. That implies that no such thing can exist over which he does not have power``, similar to saying that a square cannot be a circle. Another flaw in the question is that it attributes human qualities of strength and our understanding of weight (which is relative), to God who is different to any creation and thus not subject to such equivalence.
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#178 Posted by Zeena on April 26, 2007 11:09:37 pm
And also Chowk staff who is so very eager to publish all these retarded articles on front page against Pakistan and against religions is NOT a role model either...........

They are free thinkers...But, they are unable to follow interact guidelines themselves.....they let all kinds of abuse against me happen on other boards.......

Why? b/c they are also Non believers.......they do not have fear of God(almighty)....
Why the following post never got filtered? Why the interactor who abused me still is roaming around lecturing me for moral grounds?..........LOL

They are questioning God(Almighty)`s existence......? LOL.......This is a big joke.....This site and it`s double standards...................

[[[[[#1414 by teshah on April 11, 2007 6:56pm PT
Re: # 1352
majumdar

It is useless to argue with Zeena. She has gone berserk like a hot female dog and could have been satisfied only by the famous Mullah of Mardan who had a penis with an extraordinary size. She is veritably the Phoo-lan Devi of the Pakiland who could not find her Vikram and being unable to rape men like men do to women has become extremely frustrated and sex-starved. She is biting all around like a mad female dog. May God help her.]]]

If You do not believe in God(Almighty), don`t ....If you do not believe in religions , don`t....I do not have any problem with it.

But, the problem begins when these free thinkers are unable to self discipline and start lecturing about Moral values.........their moral values are based on cyber harrassing others , till other person agrees with them.............So, who is fanatic here? So who is extremist here? So, who is stupid here? so who is fundamentalist here?


I believe I am quite clear......Thanks
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#177 Posted by Zeena on April 26, 2007 10:57:51 pm
#174 teshah and # 175 ballukhan

(((#175 by ballukhan on April 26, 2007 8:47pm PT
Re: # 173

A common person who just follows the golden rule is a far superior moral being to a mullah follower who is full of fear for the eternal punishment in the after world.]]]]
and
[[[[#174 by teshah on April 26, 2007 8:04pm PT
Re: # 100

Zeena

You say:

``Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully and is not loving and kind``.

Does it not mean that there are different gods according to different faiths who are kind to their believers and stern and cruel to non-believers? But why, of all, you have come out in support of the Islamic god, dear zeena, when you know the Islamic god is allegedly cruel and stern to the female gender?]]]]

Well, Sirs.....

It looks like both of you are free thinkers and are against religions and exculsively Muslims......

Anyway, here is my personal experience here on chowk.con. on Front page.....In the past I have always disagreed with Mr.Urstruly( a strong believer and Muslim).......This great Man has never ever uttered a single word of abuse for me. Rather Urstruly always respected me......And I am impressed with his manners and finesse with me........He is cool and he can take heat of any level @ any board with decency...................

But, the moment I disagreed with some of you on OTHER BOARD( Jamia Hafsa) , majority of these Non believers , free thinkers, smart eiltes of chowk, intellectuals and literate interactors started cyber harrassing me by personal attacks, personal remarks, name calling...they tried their best to belittle me as much as possible...........including a female of chowk who started extreme personals attacks.

Just look @ the following post by this interactor teshah from Jamia Hafsa board....who calls himself a non believer and is trying to teach me a MORAL lesson........LOL.....

[[[#1414 by teshah on April 11, 2007 6:56pm PT
Re: # 1352
majumdar

It is useless to argue with Zeena. She has gone berserk like a hot female dog and could have been satisfied only by the famous Mullah of Mardan who had a penis with an extraordinary size. She is veritably the Phoo-lan Devi of the Pakiland who could not find her Vikram and being unable to rape men like men do to women has become extremely frustrated and sex-starved. She is biting all around like a mad female dog. May God help her.]]]


My whole point of posting this post here is to make ballukhan and others realize that , if, I have to follow Mr.Urstruly`s moral attitude here on chowk, then certainly this person is the best example of Morality......He is a believer in God(Almighty) and he strongly believes in morality and he knows how to apply his morality here on this web site.......where majority of free thinkers( non believers) are unable to take the heat of any discussions and take No seconds to harrass other strangers without even realizing that there is always God(Almighty) who will get back to them sooner or latter.................

This is the set example.................

These non believers(free thinkers) are NOT my role models here on chowk that I follow their pathways, either........
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#176 Posted by Zeena on April 26, 2007 10:32:09 pm
#175 ballukhan
Please, re read my post #173 with open mind and open eyes......and then you`ll ralize what I am conveying?

There is no such thing as Mullah follower in my post # 173. If, you read my first line you will get my message loud and clear...........

That`s the reason I do not like to interact here with majority of interactors, they either do not read my posts, or if they do they always either try to twist my posts or misunderstand what I wrote??????


Anyway, If I am a believer and believe in a religion. That does not make me a mullah follower.......

I do not see any difference between pseudo Mullahs and atheists.........Both are imbeciles.......

I do not need any mullah to teach me how to follow my religion...I am a common , humble and poor soul with an average mind who knows exactly what is wrong and what is right morally?...Who loves God(Almighty) selflessly , who prays and seeks help from God(Almighty) on daily basis............

And trust me I am not a Mullah........
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#175 Posted by ballukhan on April 26, 2007 8:47:53 pm
Re: # 173

A common person who just follows the golden rule is a far superior moral being to a mullah follower who is full of fear for the eternal punishment in the after world.
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#174 Posted by teshah on April 26, 2007 8:04:24 pm
Re: # 100

Zeena

You say:

``Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully and is not loving and kind``.

Does it not mean that there are different gods according to different faiths who are kind to their believers and stern and cruel to non-believers? But why, of all, you have come out in support of the Islamic god, dear zeena, when you know the Islamic god is allegedly cruel and stern to the female gender?
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#173 Posted by Zeena on April 26, 2007 7:15:01 pm
I don`t see any difference between an extremist Mullah and an athiest...

Atheists are fundamentalists, bigots, authoritarians,fascists, prejudiced, mentally challenged with extreme intolerance, confused and clueless minds(If they have any, I doubt it)...

Atheists have lack of discipline in their lives...

They lack all the moral and human values set forth by religions. They consider themselves free thinkers, as a matter of facts.........their thought process is very limited. And mind it humans are given a tremendous minds to use them to reach God(almighty)....

Atheists stupidly think they have broken the chains of religion ...but as a matter of fact they have chained themselves in the garb of their own lil and narrowminded approach with extremely IRRATIONAL thought process which endangered them to have a great potential of being schizophrenics and psychotics and serial killers....well serial killers could apparently be religious , too but if you dig in to their psych. they have broken the chains of FEAR OF GOD(ALMIGHTY) ......if, you obey God( Almighty) , then automatically you will never kill or harm any other living human........So, I consider serial killers as Atheists.......

Once, you become a free thinker, then you are free to commit any crime with out remorse.....b/c your irrationality leads you to free for everything moral......just think about it..if, you can...but, you won`t...

And funny thing is atheists have this illusion that they are smarter than the rest of the population....as a matter of fact, they are imbeciles with clueless minds........

This article is a prime example of such behaviour........the more I read this article, the more I get convinced that Atheists are clueless with their own fanatic and fundamentalist agendas.......................
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#172 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 26, 2007 3:50:54 pm
Re: # 168

Urstruly,

What would it take for you to believe that I am actually an angel in man`s disguise who is policing chowk, spying for my boss (the omnipotent) who has promised me jannat for this despicable act of ratting on my friends?

And that two years after today a big `garam aalu` is going to hit this earth from outer space killing all the jinns on the planet and solving the energy crisis we have today and that a goat will be born in near future whose horns will be used to cure any type of cancer and the world is in fact resting on the horns of a cow ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................
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#171 Posted by sattar2 on April 26, 2007 2:20:39 pm

Urstruly, garam aalu comes in different flavors.
Issa-in-the-sky is another name for it ...

Kindly enlighten us!
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#170 Posted by khurram on April 26, 2007 1:48:02 pm
Re; #164 khuram,

Arrey bhai! I knew that!

I hope you got the analogy I intended.
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#169 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 26, 2007 1:41:41 pm
#168 by Urstruly

Arey bhai kyon? In khurafaat ko aap kud hi naberrain – humain mukaan dukaan ki fikr kurnay dein.
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#168 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2007 1:16:42 pm
Re: # 165

Nice try. But as it is said - garam aalu rakh diya gya hay. I give you 24 hours to solve the problem of God & stone using your logic and rationality and show us the results. Keep sharp things locked up during that time.
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#167 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 26, 2007 1:12:17 pm
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#166 Posted by KaalChakra on April 26, 2007 1:11:39 pm
echoboom dada, my dagger is always out in the open. I don`t know how anyone would ever confuse me for, in any form whatsoever, a `nice guy!`

Yet my respect, admiration, affection, and good wishes for Zeemax sahib are entirely, 100%, genuine. Just as is my strong dislike for the sundry munafiqs, and the dishonest lot, who play with words and hatch unique (mis) interpretations to deliberately mislead good and sometimes ignorant people around them. May be I am (or as I learn, grow, and mature in my thinking, will become more) like you. :)

By the way, a much belated: welcome back! :)

[You have to accept: for an Indian Hindu, to openly admire and respect both you and Zee sahib is not a sane option. LOL]



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#165 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 26, 2007 12:53:33 pm
#156 by Urstruly

“Circular argument is not allowed in Logic and Philosophy and Logicians and Philosophers spend most of their time to identify and clean up the circular argument from their hypotheses.
So basically such argument does not reflect the inadequacy of God to do something or not but it reflects upon the inadequacy, inherent flaws and imperfections in the science of Logic. Is this what rationalists take pride in?? A flawed science??

Science, logic, philosophy starts when you start asking the questions WHAT and HOW instead of asking the mythical and religious questions of WHO and WHY. This is precisely how all the clutter gets cleaned up. Scientists, logicians or philosophers do not address God in their arguments – if or when they do they have gone beyond the realm of their disciplines.

The dichotomies, circular arguments, the forbidding of thinking beyond a certain point – not allowing questions to be asked are all in the realm of myth and religion. For which there are plenty of WHOs (Prophet or God) and WHYs (“Sometimes believing becomes driver and knowing takes the back seat”). So, (to quote your words back at you) “the inadequacy, inherent flaws and imperfections in RELIGION, is this what the THEOLOGIANS take pride in?? A flawed RELIGION??”

Keep humming Iqbal to maintain your juzba e shauk e shahadat.


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#164 Posted by khuram on April 26, 2007 12:30:59 pm
# 147 by Khurram

What is north of the North Pole?

North Pole is the extreme north place/ position of Globe. We talk about directions only with reference to Global positions. In Geography, Globe has been divided in Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere. The dividing line between two hemispheres is obviously the Equator.

Only North and South are the ``absolute`` directions of Globe because there are only North and South Poles, i.e. there are no East and West Poles.

East and West directions are only ``referential`` directions because these are only referred by right/ left sides of longitudinal lines. If you are going and going towards right side of any longitudinal line, it means you are moving towards east, even if you complete the circle around the glob.

North and South directions are also referred as up/ down of any latitude. But in addition, there are fixed North and South Poles as well. In this scheme, North Pole is located at extreme upper point of Globe. If you are going to upper side of any latitude, it means that you are going towards North. Towards upper side, you can maximum reach to the North Pole because onward from this point, the downward journey will begin. It means that beyond North Pole, there shall start down side movement from Northern zero latitude. And downside movement from any latitude is the movement towards South!

There is no point upper than North Pole, so there is no North towards any side of North Pole. North Pole itself is the absolute North. Any movement away from North Pole shall be a movement towards South if it is along any longitudinal line. If that movement is not exactly along any single longitudinal line, then it is a movement towards South with some angle towards East or West.

Regards!


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#163 Posted by rafi_aamer on April 26, 2007 12:24:21 pm
Re: # 160

echoboom

Thanks for reminding me one of my most favorite poems from one of my most favorite poets, the prisoner of Zulf-e-Jehlum, Mustafa Zaidi.

Rafi
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#162 Posted by Zeena on April 26, 2007 11:39:25 am
Even a kindergarterner has clear concept about God(Almighty), but, some imbeciles still struggling for the clarity of their minds...tsk, tstk, tsk...

Their imbecile minds are blocked with their own idiocy...
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#161 Posted by khuram on April 26, 2007 11:29:54 am
Re: # 150

If I don`t believe in the reports of CNN ... If I want to know about this thing independently, at my own,,, but without going to North Pole -- Then I will have to adopt this method.
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#160 Posted by echoboom on April 26, 2007 10:28:29 am
For Rafi_Aamer:

Just saw your profile page.
Jee khush huaa hai raah ko puur-khaar daikh kar.

I thinks that we can be in business.

FIRAQUE


HUM NAY JIS TARA-H SABOU TORA HAI HUM JANTAY HAI(N)


Dil-e pur khooN kee maiy-i-naab ka qatra qatra

joi-y almas tha, darya-e shab-e nisaN tha

Aik ik boond main kay qulzuum mein thhee mauj-e kausar

Aik ik aks had-deese harUm-e eemaN thha

aik hee rah pohanchtee thee tajjalee kay hazoor

HUM NAY uUS RAH SAY MOU(n) MORRA HAI HUM JANTAY HAIN

Mah paroa(n) kay talismaat main tairaa afsoo(n)

shaivaa-h o shObda-h O rasam O ravayaat main tu

khaa`b kee bazm teri, deeda-h-e bay-khawab tira

Suba-h kay noor main tu, neend bhari raat main tu

dil kee dharkan kaa taray qurb kay lamhoo(n) pay madar

HUM NAY JIS TARAH TUJHHAI CHHOARRA HAI HUM JANTAY HAI(N)




Mustafa Zaidi



#154
Kal Chakra

TimeCircle! one cannot be as ``traditional`` as you are, but thanks for the undeserved compliment to me anyway.

P.S: It is not a good idea to keep the dagger in the armpit too long. Show it sunshine once in a while...or has it become so rusty & crusty?
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#159 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2007 10:22:41 am
Re: # 157

There is no circular argument in Islam. The boundry where knowledge ends and belief begin is very well defined. There is a staright path that treads from here to eternity, which Qura`n refers to as Sirat-e-Mustaqeem i.e. The Straight Path. A delicate balance between knowledge and belief keeps man treading on this straight path. Just as blind faith leads the man astray so does the over-reliance on knowldge. Balance is the key. See Allama`s couplet in my post below.
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#158 Posted by GT on April 26, 2007 10:12:00 am
Re: # 156 by urstruly:

Urstruly sahib:

``The answer to such questions is that `we don`t know`.``

Well said, sir, very well said. There are so many such questions!

p.s. Now lets get back to jihad.
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#157 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 26, 2007 10:04:44 am
Re: # 156

Urstruly,

What about the propositions that lead to circular arguments? They should be considered in the same line as circular arguments. We should also throw them away.

Whenever you invoke god (e.g. to save you a parking slot), you are creating one such proposition that leads to circular arguments e.g. who created this god?

So, since you are a Logician and Philosopher why not do a thorough cleanup of this mess.
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#156 Posted by Urstruly on April 26, 2007 9:41:07 am
Subhashjoshi.

``If God is Absolute then can God create a stone so heavy, that even He wouldn`t be able to lift it``

This is so typical a question that the atheists, who consider themselves `rationalists` ask on the religious forums. (I am not referring to subhash). Some rationalists they are that they do not even know the basic rules in Logic that forms the core of Rationalism. In Logic, there is an argument called a `circular argument`. In such argument usually there are two parts of the argument. In the first part, a statement is made as a qualifying statement and in the second part the statement is so chosen (usually in question form) that it negates the qualifying statement. In this case, the part, ``If God is Absolute`` is the qualifying statement and rest of the statement negates what we have already qualified. Circular argument is not allowed in Logic and Philosophy and Logicians and Philosophers spend most of their time to identify and clean up the circular argument from their hypotheses. So basically such argument does not reflect the inadequacy of God to do something or not but it reflects upon the inadequacy, inherent flaws and imperfections in the science of Logic. Is this what rationalists take pride in?? A flawed science??

Those who are into computer programming know very well the concept of ``infinite loop``, where the code instructs the program to run endlessly in a circular loop and unless someone cntrl+alt+del the computer or pull the plug, the program runs itself to the point where machine clogs itself to a stop. Same is the idea with circular arguments that they just clog the human minds with no productive output. Our Holy Prophet (pbuh) specifically forbade engaging into circular arguments. Typical circular arguments in Islam are the questions that pertain to Netherworld or the afterlife of which we have just limited information. For example questions like, when is the End of Days going to come, will all non-believers go to hell, will all believers go to heaven, if man will get 72 houris then how many men a woman will get etc.. The answer to such questions is that `we don`t know`. Sometimes believing becomes driver and knowing takes the back seat.

Allama Iqbal has reflected on the phenomenon of knowing vs believing in these immortal words:

Achcha hay keh dil ke saath rahe paasbaan-e-aql
Magar kabhi uss ko tanha bhi choR day.

{It is great to have rationality chaperoning your heart all the time, but sometimes heart must be left alone as well}
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#155 Posted by khurram on April 26, 2007 9:14:24 am
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-rock-heavy-lift.html
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#154 Posted by KaalChakra on April 26, 2007 8:58:16 am
# 152

LOL, wouldn`t say that about urstruly, but zeemax`s concept of Islam is pretty vast. As he said it beautifully once, he has been right to the edge of reason, and then stepped back only because he was afraid of shirk (zee, is that put accurately?) [See, as a Hinud, shirk does not scare me. I jump right into it, and totally embrace it. That`s the only real - although not insignificant - difference, IMO].

Echoboom sahib`s mind and the breadth of his vision are even more interesting, he being more of our buzurg, and more self-consciously ``traditional.`` :)
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#153 Posted by bjkumar on April 26, 2007 8:53:51 am

#151

I have stopped beating up on the J!

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#152 Posted by GT on April 26, 2007 8:18:18 am
Re: # 132 by zeemax:

1. Zee:

First Urstruly and then you! All you closet HINUDS. Wait till masadi sees what you have written!

2. To all others who took their time to answer my questions:

Thank you.

3. To Joshi ji:

Urstruly had asked and answered the question about God and rocks a long time back in chowk.
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#151 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 26, 2007 7:59:51 am
Re: # 144 BJ

[.....must be the man]

Is it necessary that you should always mention the deeds of a certain Mr. J?


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#150 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 26, 2007 7:54:23 am
Re: # 146 Khurram

Don`t they tell daily temp at N Pole on CNN?

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#149 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 26, 2007 7:52:26 am
Re: # 121 Folio

Folio-ji

Perhaps you are not aware of irreverent ``poetry`` that circulates in India, especially in Bengal. If you have a friend who did engg from BE college, ask him about Mahayan (It`s what they call this poetry and its recital). I know a few nuggets in Hindi, but it is no match for Bengali poetry.)


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#148 Posted by subhashjoshi on April 26, 2007 7:32:13 am
A question for our (almost) omniscient chowggsperts:

Can God build a brick so big and heavy that he can`t lift it by himself?

(Hint : Man can build a brick so big and heavy that he can`t lift it by himself.)

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#147 Posted by khurram on April 26, 2007 7:12:09 am
What is north of the North Pole?
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#146 Posted by khuram on April 26, 2007 6:38:29 am
# 130 by GT:

A question for only scientific types:

I have not been to the North Pole. Should I believe or know that it is colder than Rajasthan?


Yes it can be known without going to North Pole. But dear, it is not possible to be known while staying in only Rajhistan.

Suppose you first travel towards south from Rajhistan on a horse or donkey. What you shoud do on each day of your journey is that you should measure the length of your own shadow everyday on exact 12 O`Clock noon. Suppose you are having precise equipment for measuring exact length of shadow. You will note that every day, the length of shadow shall become smaller and smaller. You will also note that your shadow, at exact 12` O Clock noon shall always be towards your North side.

If you continue your journey, then one day you will reach to a place where your shadow, at 12 O` Clock noon, will be having no direction at all. Because on that day, your shadow at noon will be exactly underneath you. It means that sun will be exactly over your head i.e. at 90 degree angle with surface of earth. If that will be the day of 22nd June, it means that you will be on EQUATOR on that day.

On the next day of your journey, you will notice a strange thing. You will notice that now, at 12 O` Clock noon, your shadow will get somewhat length but now its direction shall be towards south. If you continue your journey, you will find that now your shadow shall increase in length day be day on southern side.

So you come back to Rajhistan. Now you change your horse or donkey and start travelling towards North. You will notice that each day your shadow will be getting more and more length at exact 12 O` Clock noon. You do not reach to North pole and come back to your home in Rajhistan. Now you go to your study room and start realizing that there is a place on your southern side where sun can be overhead at mid-day. But there can be no place on your northern side where sun can be overhead at mid-day.

Dear, you will also think that it is more hot if sun is overhead. It should be cold if sun is away from head. If sun is away from head, it means your shadow must be large. If you keep on going and going towards north side, your shadow shall be becoming lenghthy and lengthy. North Pole is that place on your north side where sun will be at maximum distance (means lowest angle with surface of earth) from being overhead. It should be the coldest point at your north, you will realize.

And obviously, the coldest point on your north shall be colder than Rajhistan also!

It is not possible to know the exact geometry of earth while staying at a single place. But it is also not necessary to travel to extreme locations just to know geometry and physical conditions etc.


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#145 Posted by paradox on April 26, 2007 5:49:44 am
Re: # 97
Mr masadi
The empirical data points towards a universe that is fine tuned to produce maximum number of black hole. Our universe is most efficient at producing black holes not humans. Life is only an after thought. Anything to work has to be tuned. A universe with different constants would probably give birth to a different form of life.
If God is a necessary being that he cannot be a creator of contingent beings like us but since Allah made man in his own image, it seems that this creator cannot be too different from humans.
If he is ``out of time`` then he cannot effect the events in this world, as that needs time as a medium and if he is ``in time`` then he is getting old with time and has to die or fade away with time.
To be honest, if think humans are not equipped to solve this problem. By looking at history and evolution of different religions it seems that humans are good at inventing myths and ``the God of gap`` is one of them. As human understanding is getting better this gap is being pushed away to the end and might remain at the end of the chain for ever.
Every believer thinks of his religion as being the only true one. Every religion has a god, sacred text, prophet, miracles and surprisingly prophecies which are coming true all the time. This god is not out somewhere but in side the human mind. God is a feeling, a state of mind, a subjective truth, only for the believer.
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#144 Posted by bjkumar on April 26, 2007 3:08:38 am

[In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth]

Then He paused and went on a coffee break.

Then He came back and created Man.

Then He paused and went on another coffee break.

Then He came back and looked all over.

Then He explained: “Rats, I should never have gone on that break! That earth is gone!

Somebody destroyed it – must be the Man!”


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#143 Posted by samar1982 on April 26, 2007 2:38:41 am
Re: # 140, tehsinabbasi,

``God is unknowable``

But we KNOW that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience, all powerful, merciful.

Therefore, Unknowable=Knowable. QED.

This was the most simple corollary which I had left for students in #102 as homework.

Shabas!

Samar
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#142 Posted by Zeena on April 25, 2007 11:19:21 pm
God is everlasting...
God is infinity...
God is universal...
God is the first...before silence broke...
God will be the last...after silence returns....

THE ROARING SILENCE OF GOD

O Devayani, you have a sudden
longing for silence,
change.

Yet you know that if the insurance
the car, the problems
with your guru were solved,
the longing for change,
for silence
would change,
would become noisy
celebrations --

no matter how brief.
Then would come a time
of neutrality,
pleasure -- for a little while
in success, comfort, trust,
a feeling of harmony,
as if you were doing the right thing.
Then again would come the care,

the anxiety, the fear, the frustration,
the feeling of no where to go and nothing to do,
the re-goading yourself to enjoy
what you do,
the success,
the rejoicing at fame,
the happiness of even a little fortune,
and then the crumbling,

the dying down,
gathering in
once again of despair,
anxiety,
fear,
failure.
You`ve almost nothing left,
and yet it is too much.

O, Devayani, how you long to be
rid of it all!
Possessions are not a problem any more,
except insofar as, no matter how few,
you want less.
You long for less and less and less.
You want only what you can do with your mind,
your fingers, your inspiration.

You want only the joy of working,
being inspired enough to work each day
at what you love.
But even that joy
comes and goes.
Not every day are you
thrilled to write,
practice,

stitch.
Seldom does a day pass without
hours or minutes
in which you are as lost
hesitant,
dissatisfied
as you were forty years ago
with what you have done, can do.

Disinterested,
flumoxed,
discouraged --

you`re just filling time
until you can
drop dead
and don`t have to fill each day
with
something!
Almost everything
you ever wanted to do

you have done,
more or less
or you`ve forgotten

it.

Yet still,
each evening as you
turn towards home
or, at home, turn
towards bed
there`s a feeling
of let-down,
of discouragement,

of wanting to lie down
to sleep in the grave.
Nothing satisfies,
nothing fulfills.
You`ve tried
about as much as you can stand
of meditation,
religion,

mysticism,
God,
of
trying to see God,
trying to hear God,
trying to guess what God
wants you to do,
and there is silence.

Silence.

O Devayani --
there is the silence
you long for!

What silence could be more complete
than the silence of God?
The roaring silence of God.
You don`t know what you want to do,
yet God seems to be without suggestion.
If you hear a suggestion in your heart,
you think it is just your own self-will,
once more a longing to turn away,
try again,
flounder,
do it wrong, even do it right,

and it ends.
Then the emptiness again.
You used to think, O Devayani,
that after each success,
your life spun back to zero.
But today,
when one success does seem to build
upon another,

there is still the zero,
the anxiety, the sadness, the lack of confidence,
the lack of trust,
the longing to lie in the grave,
to do nothing at all,
to stop breathing,
to stop trying.
And yet the roaring silence of God

continues.
Loud.
Deafeningly loud.

``God`s not interested,``
roars the silence,
``in your little human problems.``
Yes, Devayani, you are being tested,
even found adequate,
but the testing goes on,
on and on and on.
There is no end to the testing.

What a bore!
The silence remains.
The roar of nothingness.

The shout of futility.
Assurance that it will always be this way.
Up and down,
up and down,
and on and on and on and on,
and never
any meaning.
O, glimmers of meaning from time to time!

Then the joke`s on
you again, O Devayani,
for you to place meaning wherever you like.
O Devayani,
it doesn`t mean much.
It means very little,
in the presence
of the roaring silence of God.


You long to be guided,
yet you follow no rules.
You long to be used,
yet you have so many opinions
of what
you can and cannot do,
what
you can or cannot be.

No more headstrong woman ever walked earth.
Yet you don`t see it
that way.
You are stubborn
and sullen,
angry and controlling
if anyone dares to
tell you what to do.

Imagine God trying to tell you what to do!

If you were God and needed to deal with you,
you`d step back into a roaring silence, too.
O, Devayani, such a will as yours
must intimidate even God.
Yet it never seems that way
from inside, for Devayani,
you know the fear,
the frailty, the anxiety,

It`s no fun, Devayani,
longing to be touched by God,
to be in touch with silence,
to tune into the mystical state of being --
and to find yourself
always obsessed by the little problems of the moment.
Yet, when respite from the problems of the moment come,
well -- O Devayani, often you don`t feel like getting out of bed.

Sleep,
hide yourself from the emptiness
that is the roaring silence of God.

Go to bed right now,
lacking any contact with God
and read Music of the Whole Earth,

and fall asleep to one more day
and one more day
and one more day
seeming no closer to any kind of peace,
or wisdom,
or belief,
or trust,
or willingness

to listen
to the roaring silence
of God.

BY JAN HAAG
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#141 Posted by parthaab on April 25, 2007 9:22:35 pm


There is increasing debate recently about the assumptions of religion, particularly of God as in this thread.

The increasing recognition of the danger religion poses to the society is welcome.

Inspite of the billions in funds that pour into the coffers of organised religion, rational thinking can only augur well for the quick demise of brain washing, particularly innocent kids.





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#140 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 25, 2007 8:00:50 pm
#139 by samar1982

“Infinity is nothing, i.e. Zero. Both infinity and Zero can not be assessed, measured or experienced by human beings.”

That is why God is unknowable – thus spoke Zarasuthra.

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#139 Posted by samar1982 on April 25, 2007 7:19:21 pm
Re: # 129, GT,

Re:138,

3) What is infinity?

(A guess) Infinity is nothing, i.e. Zero. Both infinity and Zero can not be assessed, measured or experienced by human beings.

Samar
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#138 Posted by samar1982 on April 25, 2007 6:57:50 pm
Re: # 129, GT,

1) Size of the universe can neither be measured nor be assessed by humans who are endowed with limited sensory organs. Whatever instrument you make, whatever technology you develop, you would have to experience/feel/judge the phenomenon with the limited capacity of your organs.

2) So, Universe has no beyond.

3) We can never know what is infinity because it is beyond our sensory organs.

4) It is expanding/contracting between infinity and zero. Big-bang theory could reach up to a `tiny particle` like the head of a pin. It can not go further due to the reasons sited in 1) and 3). If humans could go further they would find Zero.

Samar
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#137 Posted by dost_mittar on April 25, 2007 6:47:15 pm
echoboom#119:

Curiosity may kill the cat but can this prevent the cat from being curious?

Yeh bhi voh aatish hai, jo lagai na lage aur bujhai na bane.

Tehsin abbasi#136:

``“the Hindu definition, which says that the soul (atma) is pure and good”

I beg to differ with Dost.``

You differ with Hindu definition, not mine. I have no idea if there is any such thing as soul which survives the mortal remains. For me, soul and conscience are one and the same thing. [Heck, now I wonder if I know how to define conscience!]
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#136 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 25, 2007 4:26:40 pm
#112 by hamidm2

In

#109 by dost-mittar

“the Hindu definition, which says that the soul (atma) is pure and good”

I beg to differ with Dost. Souls come in all forms and they are not all good. Hamid you are living proof of a khabees rooh for which God will send down a gunja farishta.
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#135 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on April 25, 2007 4:19:16 pm
#101 by ranjit

“Lets say that at some point in time, medicine becomes so advanced that our lifespan increases to centuries, i.e. you will rarely die of natural causes. Your organs can all be replaced as they age by using stem cell technology. How many of us would still respect a God if we reach that stage? After all, if you dont die, there is no heaven or hell to worry about, right?”

Lets take your scenario a bit further. Let’s say we get to a stage of development whereby we have expanded our brains to the extent that we can basically download all accumulated knowledge of the ages into it. In the physical sense we have developed ourselves to the extent that the body is nothing more then a drag. Why have organs, why a body at all, lets say we have morphed into pure consciousness. We don’t need a body because that just slows us down, without it we can travel at the speed of light to any corner of the universe.

Now – are we still connected to other human beings given that every one has basically the same knowledge or have we developed a collective consciousness? Or is it that with that knowledge we have developed individual consciousnesses that are unique to ourselves and different from any one else. Both alternatives are equally possible. Can this be called – if I dare say – we are approaching singularity or infinite plurality? We have definitely approached God to the point of union with him or found him in his infinite diversity. This is the drive towards the Good.

Any ways – this is just another dimension of my craziness.
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#134 Posted by sattar2 on April 25, 2007 3:14:43 pm

Re #118: Urstruly … no, seriously … what does dr. Israr think about Issa-ibne-Marriam residing above clouds? And what about all these Muslims you keep harping about … who supposedly believe in evolution??

Kindly enlighten us … before getting into Aristotle or 4% headaches …

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#133 Posted by Folio on April 25, 2007 1:13:55 pm
Echo Saab,

That`s not my picture. She`s a south Indian actress called Diana Kurien aka Nayana Tara.

I cant say no abt which I am not sure abt. Sometimes belief gives us inner calm. Some people achieve this without the hlep of God.

However, imagine a situation where Mr. X is flying. There`s a sudden announcement that the flight going to collapse soon & all are going to die. What Mr.X wud do (imagine that Mr. X is a commited athiest). My guess is that only 5 out of 100 athiests wud stay brave but the rest wud pray their Gods for life.

The power of unknown is God here. The uncertainty in life is the bedrock of religion. There`s god for all kinds of people. I dont think there`s a civilisation that has no god. Even Sentinelese wud have thier own. However we may have to wait for that to be unwrapped.

Pl take a a look at savages like Sentinelese & make ur own conclusions. Btw these are the only tribe in this world that lives in seclusion.




http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kirchersociety.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/andaman.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kirchersociety.org/blog/%3Fp%3D441&h=244&w=400&sz=61&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=CY4QyYRcm6QFvM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSentinelese%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den







Dear GT,

The biggest compromise of mankind (atheists also) towards this world is the assumption of 1 from Zero. That means we take unit 1,2,3......as given from nothing. We Indic people are responsible for this.

This, I rank as the biggest folly of athiests. If we can explain how this is possible we`d be closer to understanding many things in this world. (I`d like to be falsified on this here).





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#132 Posted by zeemax on April 25, 2007 12:42:09 pm
Hehehe GT,

God IS the Universe ...

Don`t know about Rajasthan though ... :)
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#131 Posted by GT on April 25, 2007 12:42:01 pm
A question only for the mathematical types:

1. Can a theorem result from two sets of axioms which are mutually contradictory?
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#130 Posted by GT on April 25, 2007 12:33:52 pm
A question for only scientific types:

I have not been to the North Pole. Should I believe or know that it is colder than Rajasthan?
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#129 Posted by GT on April 25, 2007 12:31:58 pm
Some questions for all you religious and scientific types:

1. Can the size of the Universe be measured?

2. If yes, then what lies beyond the universe? If we cannot answer this question then should we say that God surrounds the Universe?

3. If the size of the Universe cannot be measured, then should we say that the size is infinite? What is infinity? Is it God?

4. If the Universe is expanding and/or contracting, in what `space` is it doing so?

p.s. I would appreciate answers without references to texts written by great philosophers, scientists or God. Don`t have much time to read.
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#128 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 12:29:06 pm
last line:127

aap yaqenan harem kee raunaque ho saktee haiN..............Ya ho saktay hain , khwaja sara bUnn kar.
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#127 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 12:19:48 pm
#126 by Folio on April 25, 2007 11:48am PT

I dont know if the ref in ur post is meant for me



No it was not.

aur agar aap kay profile meiN aap kaa phota hai, toa phir aap pur toa sau khoon bhhee muaaf haiN.

Yeh daikh kur bohut khushee huee kay aap kee nuth abhee naheen utree.

aur agar voh tasveer aap kee naheeN hai, toa phir muslamaanoan sey bachnay kee fikr kraiN.

One is never far from God, but one can never be close to atheism.....Eemaan kamzore ho saktaa hai, kufr naheen.....or are you giving us the message that your ``No`` is really not ``No``?

aap yaqenan haem kee raunaque ho saktee haiN..............Ya ho saktay hain , khwaja sara bUnn kar.
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#126 Posted by Folio on April 25, 2007 11:48:09 am
Hamid,

I laughed my arse out. Sooo hilarious is this guy on video.

Echo Saab,

Adaab, welcome back.

I dont know if the ref in ur post is meant for me.

U are mixing up Bush, jihad, Allah, Mohammed, our lives, opinions, science and many more things into this. I know u are very agitated abt the happenings in this world. So are we, in a different way.

I am not claiming that I am an athiest though I am very closer to it. I am in a school of thought where I wud like to see the things to myself and decide, kinda Jiddu Krishnamoorthy`s philospohy.

It`s not plague, malaria, aids that killed many people in this world but intolerence of the religious people. To be precise, it`s religion that`s responsible 4 many deaths in this world. Like NRA* guyz u guyz wud say that it`s not the religion but the proponents of religion i.e the bad people. For me it`s one and the same.

U all can have peace by `believing` in something.

If u call it Noor, Hindus call it Suryanarayana i.e God of Light or God of Noor.

Let`s have peace by sharing many commonalities. Koran talks abt God being Merciful and Peace be upon everybody BUT I dont see these two qualities in many of the Islam`s followers.


* NRA guyz often say that it`s not the guns that kill but the people who own them.
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#125 Posted by sattar2 on April 25, 2007 11:43:24 am

Controversial discussion - I will try to tread carefully.

In my view Quran supports the notion of evolution of life, even universe. “Instant creationism” or “miracles” are products of notions typically misunderstood by religionists.

Quran mentions Rub as one of the first attribute of Allah. Arabic word Rub contains connotations of one who develops something in stages. When used as an attribute of God, it suggests support for evolution - of life - among others things. This does not necessarily endorse the mainstream Darwinian Theory of Evolution, but the general notion of evolution, that is, development of less complex life forms into more complex life forms, over time.

My understanding is that life … its formation and evolution … cannot be explained on basis of statistics and “blind mechanisms” alone.

Given the complexity of processes required - formation of pre-biotic organisms, formation of complex proteins, somewhat simultaneous development of highly complex body organs - the time required on basis of chance alone is be almost incalculable. If left purely on chance, destructive forces of nature would have likely annihilated any basic form of life or required chemicals in initial stages, without giving them a chance to evolve further.

One interpretation of God being the Rub and the Creator … is that He biased the odds slightly in favor of creation versus destruction, all along the path of evolution. This tiny bias in favor of creation, every step of the way, has resulted in complex life forms over time. In other words, there is an inherent bias in favor of life in the very design of the universe.

Now, one can justifiably argue that our views are colored by our biases. It is rather difficult to see eye to eye with those with differing viewpoints. So while acknowledging complexity of the topic at hand, these are some of my initial thoughts on the subject.

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#124 Posted by hamidm2 on April 25, 2007 11:07:30 am
Re: # 121

folio,

....... i think carlin is the ultimate authority on god and this should put an end to this silly discussion ........... all these other guys, including urstruly and aristotle, are just blowing smoke up our elbow .............
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#123 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 10:55:02 am
correction:108

Zeemax
Urstruly
& fellow muslims.

``Jubb bhhee abro-ey dar-e yaar ney irshaad kiyaa
Jiss bayaabaaN meiN bhhee hUm hoangay..chalay aeN gey``.

Buzdilee is another name for the munaafique. These gnats have already sought asylum
in the crack of Bush`s back-bush....a la`anut unto itself.

Do you still think they deserve the `honour` of getting buzkushed?
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#122 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 10:52:19 am
Zeemax
Urstruly
& fellow muslims.

``Jubb bhhee abo-ey dar-e yaar ney irshaad kiyaa
Jiss bayaabaaN meiN bhhee hUm hoangay..chalay aeN gey``.

Buzdilee is another name for the munaafique. These gnats have already sought asylum
in the crack of Bush`s back-bush....a la`anut unto itself.

Do you still think they deserve the `honour` of getting buzkushed?
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#121 Posted by Folio on April 25, 2007 10:36:00 am
Hilarious Hamid!

GEORGE CARLIN ON RELIGION | Send To Friends | Funniest Jokes at JibJab



Btw, can we have an equivalent of this on Islam or Hinduism? If there`s one our subcontinent wud go in flames.

We`re the bunch of intolerent twits.
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#120 Posted by zeemax on April 25, 2007 10:26:35 am
Echoboom,

Dil sey dil ko rah hoti hey.

To those who still don`t understand God & Devil, I was just about to refer them to your iLog re the Yazidis section titled ``Religious beliefs``

:)
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#119 Posted by echoboom on April 25, 2007 10:11:24 am
#80 by dost-mittar on April 24, 2007 1:53pm PT
you asked the Munafiquoon:
``.............True. Then, why bother?``

Which has yet to be answered by the one Untrue to Allah & Untrue to Malek Ta`us as well..the munaafiquoon.

He is looking forward to the worst of both worlds....sau piyaaz bhhee khaaey gaa aur sau jootay bhhee



Here is why:
The torment , the dilemma & the anguish of the secularoon & munaafiquoon:
[`` I want to leave the kambal (Islam) , but the Kambal does not leave me (secularoon)]

array bhai:

``Jiss ko ho deen O dil azeez, Uus kee gUlee meiN jaaey kyoon``

tr: The one who is a true-believer (or a true Unbeliever) should not even venture even nearabouts the precincts of Kufr ( or Islam)


Enjoy!



Followers & Worshipers
of
Satan
[Iblees , Mardood] identified
as the Peacock

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#118 Posted by