Burqa Vaganza – A Satirical Backlash
Mohammad Gill May 2, 2007
#275 Posted by Raw_Dust on May 8, 2007 10:58:21 am
GT:
That would be a mob rule if you remove those underlying principles or let people vote on it. In liberal-democratic setup, a State and Individuals rights and contract is defined (eg. first amendment of US constitution) that doesnot come necessarily by the dictation of majority but the ``higher principles`` that define a state. When those governing principles be called into question by the majority then the State as it was ceased to exist, for example if Turkey has an Islamist revolution then Turkey would become something else (perhaps islamic republic of turkey) not the Turkey as we know it. I dont know any country that let its people vote on the makeup of constitution in elections.
That would be a mob rule if you remove those underlying principles or let people vote on it. In liberal-democratic setup, a State and Individuals rights and contract is defined (eg. first amendment of US constitution) that doesnot come necessarily by the dictation of majority but the ``higher principles`` that define a state. When those governing principles be called into question by the majority then the State as it was ceased to exist, for example if Turkey has an Islamist revolution then Turkey would become something else (perhaps islamic republic of turkey) not the Turkey as we know it. I dont know any country that let its people vote on the makeup of constitution in elections.
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#274 Posted by echoboom on May 8, 2007 10:57:49 am
Re: # 270
No!
Ghalib
`` Naa luuT-taa din ko toa kyooN raat ko yoon baikhabar soataa
rahaa khT-kaa naa choaree kaa, dua daita hoon rehzan ko``
tr:
Were I not robbed in broad-daylight, would I be sleeping so sound?l
Possessions I`ve none, I`m free now ,My thanks to the blessed thief
No!
Ghalib
`` Naa luuT-taa din ko toa kyooN raat ko yoon baikhabar soataa
rahaa khT-kaa naa choaree kaa, dua daita hoon rehzan ko``
tr:
Were I not robbed in broad-daylight, would I be sleeping so sound?l
Possessions I`ve none, I`m free now ,My thanks to the blessed thief
#273 Posted by TOLKININ on May 8, 2007 10:48:26 am
# arjun 269 he arjun weorry about languishing Madhab Devi for 15 yers in confinement for NOTHINGSir —
It is ironic that just a day after India became a $1-trillion economy (“Billion with a trillion on paper”, April 27), came the front-page news of Madhabi Das being imprisoned in a room for five years. This shows that all claims of India having progressed are plain hogwash. Reaching a particular figure in the GDP growth chart cannot make India a ‘modern’ nation, on a par with its Western counterparts, when the outlook of the majority of its population remains frozen in the Middle Ages.
Yours faithfully,
Yagnaseni Roy, Siliguri
Sir — Cases like that of Madhabi Das abound in India, though only a few get exposed. Even Madhabi had to endure fifteen years of partial and total confinement before she was ‘discovered’ and rescued. And for one Madhabi rescued, there are still hundreds launguishing within abusive domestic spaces.
Yours faithfully,
It is ironic that just a day after India became a $1-trillion economy (“Billion with a trillion on paper”, April 27), came the front-page news of Madhabi Das being imprisoned in a room for five years. This shows that all claims of India having progressed are plain hogwash. Reaching a particular figure in the GDP growth chart cannot make India a ‘modern’ nation, on a par with its Western counterparts, when the outlook of the majority of its population remains frozen in the Middle Ages.
Yours faithfully,
Yagnaseni Roy, Siliguri
Sir — Cases like that of Madhabi Das abound in India, though only a few get exposed. Even Madhabi had to endure fifteen years of partial and total confinement before she was ‘discovered’ and rescued. And for one Madhabi rescued, there are still hundreds launguishing within abusive domestic spaces.
Yours faithfully,
#272 Posted by dost_mittar on May 8, 2007 10:48:25 am
echoboom:
Re. Tavia Grant`s article
Nothing surprising there. It is ``bania`s`` dharma to seek money-making opportunities wherever he finds them.
Re. Tavia Grant`s article
Nothing surprising there. It is ``bania`s`` dharma to seek money-making opportunities wherever he finds them.
#271 Posted by GT on May 8, 2007 10:45:47 am
Re: # 259 by Raw_Dust
Raw:
Whatever be the principles governing a state, they need to be changeable and democracy is a procedure that allows it. By construct, the coercive nature of the state will resist any attempt at limiting its priviledges whether or not they are in line with the said principles. This has very little to do with those in whom the power is invested - Bush, Indira Gandhi, Margaret T, Ayatollah K etc. etc. This coercive nature can only be combated by an adequately empowered population. Democracy, and I do not mean just elections, (along with education, awareness etc) helps in empowering the people against the state. And if the principles, that you talk about, come in the way of popular consensus they should be amenable to democratic change too. Ultimately, if you are a democrat then you will have to allow people to be responsible. Democracy is simply a tool. Hitler was responsible for curtailing the democratic rights of the Germans (let us not forget that there was very little democracy in Germany at that time). And the German people were responsible for allowing Hitler to take their rights away. Together they were responsible for Nazi Germany. People should have democracy simply to fight the powers of the state. What they do with it is their responsibility.
Raw:
Whatever be the principles governing a state, they need to be changeable and democracy is a procedure that allows it. By construct, the coercive nature of the state will resist any attempt at limiting its priviledges whether or not they are in line with the said principles. This has very little to do with those in whom the power is invested - Bush, Indira Gandhi, Margaret T, Ayatollah K etc. etc. This coercive nature can only be combated by an adequately empowered population. Democracy, and I do not mean just elections, (along with education, awareness etc) helps in empowering the people against the state. And if the principles, that you talk about, come in the way of popular consensus they should be amenable to democratic change too. Ultimately, if you are a democrat then you will have to allow people to be responsible. Democracy is simply a tool. Hitler was responsible for curtailing the democratic rights of the Germans (let us not forget that there was very little democracy in Germany at that time). And the German people were responsible for allowing Hitler to take their rights away. Together they were responsible for Nazi Germany. People should have democracy simply to fight the powers of the state. What they do with it is their responsibility.
#270 Posted by dost_mittar on May 8, 2007 10:43:10 am
HE#262:
You seem to know about Turkey more than I do. But didn`t Erbakan come to power only because Turkish army was forced by the European countries to remove restrictions from his party if it wanted to join Europe?
echoboom#264
````Vafadaari b`shar-i astavaari asl-ay Eemaan hai
Mray buut-khaanay meiN, toa kaabay meiN garRoa Brahmin ko``....Ghalib
Isn`t that verse by Iqbal?
You seem to know about Turkey more than I do. But didn`t Erbakan come to power only because Turkish army was forced by the European countries to remove restrictions from his party if it wanted to join Europe?
echoboom#264
````Vafadaari b`shar-i astavaari asl-ay Eemaan hai
Mray buut-khaanay meiN, toa kaabay meiN garRoa Brahmin ko``....Ghalib
Isn`t that verse by Iqbal?
#269 Posted by arjun2 on May 8, 2007 10:36:48 am
#255 by tahmed32 on May 8, 2007 8:25am PT
aww...DM is about to lose the prophet tahmed seal of approval...
aww...DM is about to lose the prophet tahmed seal of approval...
#268 Posted by dost_mittar on May 8, 2007 10:35:01 am
tahmed32#261:
Ki gal ai? aj manji tau putthe paason uttare si?
I think that you misunderstood -hopefully not misrepresented- my post. Just because I made a factual statement that arjun`s cuts-and-pastes are about current situation and not about the partition, does not mean that I support his ad nauseum preoccupation with paki-this, paki-that.
``And only two chowkies (both carefully selected by you to be muslims!!) regret partition!! this would be funny if it wasnt such so totally absurd.``
Yes, that would be an absurd statement if I had made it, but I didn`t. Many of us, maybe even you, regret the partition but have swallowed that pill long ago but I do not know of many chowkies who want to undo it. Actually, I am not so sure about Balu either; Salim_Chauhan is the only chowky who readily comes to mind who wants to undo the partition.
Ki gal ai? aj manji tau putthe paason uttare si?
I think that you misunderstood -hopefully not misrepresented- my post. Just because I made a factual statement that arjun`s cuts-and-pastes are about current situation and not about the partition, does not mean that I support his ad nauseum preoccupation with paki-this, paki-that.
``And only two chowkies (both carefully selected by you to be muslims!!) regret partition!! this would be funny if it wasnt such so totally absurd.``
Yes, that would be an absurd statement if I had made it, but I didn`t. Many of us, maybe even you, regret the partition but have swallowed that pill long ago but I do not know of many chowkies who want to undo it. Actually, I am not so sure about Balu either; Salim_Chauhan is the only chowky who readily comes to mind who wants to undo the partition.
#267 Posted by tahmed32 on May 8, 2007 10:33:16 am
#265 arjun: lying is second nature to you. i remember quite well reading your claim that you are here for ``paki bashing``. anyway, you are excused because anyone who suffers from hatreds like you has to be insane.
#266 Posted by echoboom on May 8, 2007 10:32:26 am
#265 Posted by arjun2 on May 8, 2007 10:29:27 am
#261 by tahmed32 on May 8, 2007 10:03am PT
he himself claimed that he came to chowk for ``paki bashing``!!
No..I said I come to chowk to open the eyes of the wagah-candle-lighting indians like dm and others to the true nature of pakis..
he himself claimed that he came to chowk for ``paki bashing``!!
No..I said I come to chowk to open the eyes of the wagah-candle-lighting indians like dm and others to the true nature of pakis..
#264 Posted by echoboom on May 8, 2007 10:28:50 am
Dost-Mittar, Raw-Dust, Khurram, Pew-Research et al
My Salaams to you all.
``Vafadaari b`shar-i astavaari asl-ay Eemaan hai
Mray buut-khaanay meiN, toa kaabay meiN garRoa Brahmin ko``....Ghalib
tr:
Devoutness, in tandem with consistency is the essence of Faith
If a Brahmin dies in the temple, he deserves burial in Ka`abaa``
I hope that are you enjoying the comic-buffoons here. Now do you understand my revulsion
for the Cantonment Canines?
Compromisers, Good-life Charlies, Security-seekers..in short White-House Niggers!.
`` Raqs-e Mae-i taizz karo, Saaz kee lae-i taiz karo
Soo-e maei-i-khana , safeeraan-e harUm aatay haiN``...Faiz
tr:
Pump up the volume, Fill up your wine-glasses!**
The emissaries from the Ka`aaba at last in!``
** In Urdu, Farsi, & arabie verse they are mostly used metaphorically for good-times.
and for white-house Niggers:
Stoke the fires, Heat the ovens, roast some shackled hearts
or how else would the prisoned-minds learn these fine arts...echoboom
BANKING: ISLAM
A hot new banking trend: Sharia-compliant finance
TAVIA GRANTMay 7, 2007
It`s an unlikely image: staffers at the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions - surely one of Ottawa`s driest regimes - are busy brushing up on the fine points of sharia law these days to cope with the anticipated expansion of Islamic financial services in Canada.
``Lately we have had more expressions of interest,`` said Normand Bergevin, managing director at OSFI`s approvals and precedents division.
#263 Posted by khurram on May 8, 2007 10:16:55 am
Re: #259
``The problem is with khurram who apparently lives in a fantasy land where democracy means mob rule where majority has a right to vote on modifying the underlying principles of State in the election..``
Where did I say that a simple majority can modify the underlying principles of a State?
But, how are the underlying principles arrived at? They are arrived at by the consensus of the population. They are not written in stone. Consensus can change. Constitutions can be modified when a new consensus emerges. Not by simple majority, of course.
A military (or clergy) guarding a constitution against an emerging consensus is the contradiction I am pointing out.
``The problem is with khurram who apparently lives in a fantasy land where democracy means mob rule where majority has a right to vote on modifying the underlying principles of State in the election..``
Where did I say that a simple majority can modify the underlying principles of a State?
But, how are the underlying principles arrived at? They are arrived at by the consensus of the population. They are not written in stone. Consensus can change. Constitutions can be modified when a new consensus emerges. Not by simple majority, of course.
A military (or clergy) guarding a constitution against an emerging consensus is the contradiction I am pointing out.
#262 Posted by HisExcellency on May 8, 2007 10:08:55 am
Dost-mittar:
That the Pakistan Army does not have a mandate to protect secularism, is probably a blessing.
Kenan Evran`s military intervention may have ended the leftist vs Islamist student riots in Turkey. But it also provided Erbakan with an opportunity to portray himself as a beacon of democracy. After Evran`s ouster, Erbakan even managed to win elections.
If Erbakan had been allowed to complete his tenure as PM, perhaps the Islamist movement would have moderated itself in the face of economic and global realities. Yet the military intervened and further polarized public opinion. We now have a situation where large segments of Turkish population are convinced that the Army is hellbent to block their mandate. This is a recipe for civil strife.
That the Pakistan Army does not have a mandate to protect secularism, is probably a blessing.
Kenan Evran`s military intervention may have ended the leftist vs Islamist student riots in Turkey. But it also provided Erbakan with an opportunity to portray himself as a beacon of democracy. After Evran`s ouster, Erbakan even managed to win elections.
If Erbakan had been allowed to complete his tenure as PM, perhaps the Islamist movement would have moderated itself in the face of economic and global realities. Yet the military intervened and further polarized public opinion. We now have a situation where large segments of Turkish population are convinced that the Army is hellbent to block their mandate. This is a recipe for civil strife.
#261 Posted by tahmed32 on May 8, 2007 10:03:59 am
#258 dm: So arjun merely ``posts articles on the current situations``? he himself claimed that he came to chowk for ``paki bashing``!! and his links to articles are merely designed to give the semblance of substance to his conclusions that long ago crossed the line of sanity (e.g. claiming that all ``pakis`` are criminals, i.e. terrorists).
And only two chowkies (both carefully selected by you to be muslims!!) regret partition!! this would be funny if it wasnt such so totally absurd.
at least urstruly thinks what you write makes sense - he also thinks that the Pakistan army is ``napak`` in protecting pakistan from arab and central asian thugs hiding out in the tribal areas. So, like I said, despite your earlier claim of having love for Pakistan, you are as embittered as arjun (who makes no bones about his hatred for Pakistan) or any other nutcase from india (e.g. jay thakeray) is.
And only two chowkies (both carefully selected by you to be muslims!!) regret partition!! this would be funny if it wasnt such so totally absurd.
at least urstruly thinks what you write makes sense - he also thinks that the Pakistan army is ``napak`` in protecting pakistan from arab and central asian thugs hiding out in the tribal areas. So, like I said, despite your earlier claim of having love for Pakistan, you are as embittered as arjun (who makes no bones about his hatred for Pakistan) or any other nutcase from india (e.g. jay thakeray) is.
#260 Posted by Raw_Dust on May 8, 2007 9:49:55 am
Not to mention what I am trying to say about democracy and the underlying principles of a state is one of the most trivial things in a polisci class.
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