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Militant Liberalism

ahmad hayat May 9, 2007

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#339 Posted by zeemax on May 15, 2007 1:02:35 am
#337 by haji004,

Echoboom didn`t omit the `O`. Bernard Lewis did. ... Duh ...

... But I am sure rest of the people on this forum don`t know...

Yeah? Really?

LOL. Or rather ... L-L .. haha
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#338 Posted by haji004 on May 15, 2007 12:56:51 am
Re: # 332

Clifton buddy...I told you before and I tell you again...Those who don`t have an identity (Pukhtoon, Sindhi, Punjabi, Baloch) are bent upon destroying the identities of others...Like your other urdu-speaking fellow who was running around amock crying ``I am everything, I am Pukhtoon, I am Sindhi, I am Punjabi, I am Baloch`` where in fact this statement is a testament that he is none of them...

The problem is that you can`t be...Altaf Hussain is way too intelligent than you pathetics who follow him...He has married in the indigenous and his children would be Sindhi/Baloch (Gabol is a Baloch tribe living in Sindh) you on the other hand would be left with your family trees that originate in Afghanistan, Iran, Arabia etc. and end in Rai Breli, Baroda, Agra and Karachi. Would you mind telling us from where you are??? Afghanistan or Iran??? Or like Musharraf you are also an Arab from Saudi Arabia???

Shout as much as you can about ``One Nation`` and keep on supporting the Army so that it could keep the people subjugated to your so-called notions of ``Unity``...but much sooner than you think...This slogan would be defunct...

Go vote for Pan-Islamist maulvis , they are you only salvation. Or join the Army like Pervez Brother did...

Best Regards
Ahmad Hayat
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#337 Posted by haji004 on May 15, 2007 12:46:45 am
Re: # 335

You haven`t answered the question...

Why have you consciously omitted ``o`` from the word ``God``??

I know the answer...But I am sure rest of the people on this forum don`t know...Answer it ...I want to hear it from you...

Why did you omit the ``o``s from ``God``??
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#336 Posted by Zeena on May 14, 2007 11:06:42 pm
#316 echoboom

LOL....WoW!!!

Great bandar naach...naach meraiy bandar keh paisa milaiy gaa.......hahaha
kahan forum tum ku aisaa milay gaa?
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#335 Posted by echoboom on May 14, 2007 6:56:57 pm
FROM: DAILY TIMES, Lahore

So now that the tide has changed & the cooking of the Roshan-Khayali-PulaaO is in peril,
what should a secularoon-Munafiquoon-kanjaroon should do? Sit on the fence, jump from the fence--but on which side? or walk on the tight-rope.

Secularoon, Liberaloon: Pragmatic, Practical, always seeking security over liberty.

Lakh Laanut: Aaaaaaaakhhhh Thhhoooooooooooooo!


10,000 lawyers march on The Mall





* Hold funeral in absentia for Karachi ‘martyrs’

By Rana Tanveer


LAHORE: The recent violence in Karachi on Monday gave a new life to the lawyers’ movement in which around 10,000 lawyers marched from the Aiwan-e-Adal to the Governor’s House. It was the largest rally ever held in Lahore by the lawyers.

The police, however, did not interfere when the lawyers removed the barbed wire and blockades to force their way ahead to the Governor’s House. They held a sit-in in front of the Governor’s House and shouted slogans against Gen Musharraf and his allies. They were shouting, “Go Musharraf Go”, “the rulers are murderers”.

Later, lawyers, political activists, traders and civil society activists offered funeral in absentia for Karachi “martyrs” at Faisal Chowk, led by Advocate Mian Asmatullah, Lahore Bar Association (LBA) vice president. About 5,000 lawyers of the LBA led by LBA president Syed Muhammad Shah marched from the Aiwan-e-Adal to the Lower Mall where activists of opposition parties also joined them.

They further reached the LHC and joined the LHCBA lawyers at the GPO chowk.

Then the Lawyers under the supervision of LHCBA president Ahsen Bhoon and LBA president marched towards the provincial assembly. A good number of female lawyers were also present on the occasion.

This time there was no showering of rose petals on the protesters, because the participants were grieved over the Karachi killings. There was no arrangement of drinking water this time.

The peaceful procession reached outside the provincial assembly and remained there for about 30 minutes.

On their way, when the lawyers reached outside the chamber of Dr Khalid Ranjha, Gen Musharraf’s counsel, situated in Dinga Singh building, on The Mall, they shouted slogans against him.

Later, some lawyers crossed all the barricades and moved towards the Governor’s House, which was not on their scheduled route. The rest of the lawyers returned and dispersed peacefully at the LHC.

The police gave the protestors easy access to the venue, however, heavy contingents of police wielding batons were deployed at various points on The Mall.

The LHCBA, being the central point of lawyers’ protest, was jam-packed with the lawyers. The lawyers were vocal against the Karachi killings and the CJP and his counsels’ maltreatment at the Karachi Airport at the hands of security personnel.

The political parties participated in the rally were the PPP, the PML-N, MMA, Tehreek-i-Insaf, Tehreek-i-Istaqlal, Tehreek-e-Khaksar and the JUI. Black flags were hoisted on rooftops and doors of several bar rooms and all lawyers were wearing black ribbons on their arms and on their foreheads.

The lawyers observed a full day boycott of the court proceedings. Three hunger-strike camps were set up in the city, which were attended by a large number of lawyers the whole day.



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#334 Posted by Chennai on May 14, 2007 6:38:38 pm
#296 by haji004 on May 14, 2007 5:16am PT
Re: # 294
#290 by haji004:

Ahmad,

Thanks for the clarification. On a different note, Pakistanis in this forum seem to be reacting more with emotion than reason (understandably so); while

Indians seem very wary of Pakistan rejoining India! Majority does not want it.....??

Curious...Is it because a new generation of Indians are around with greater political awarness without the baggage of Partition...

Ahmad my email id is mdprakash@gmail.com and do email me at your convenience.

Prakash
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#333 Posted by Chennai on May 14, 2007 6:18:06 pm
#299 by ranjit :

``Having a benign Pakistan on our west is good enough and that is what we should aim for.``

Ranjit, that is the whole point being made by Ahmad. We are not going to have ``Pakistan`` benign or otherwise on our borders. We may have smaller states, intrinsically unstable on our borders creating even more problems. Do nor forget that an independent West Punjab or Sind in trouble means India will have no choice but to be involved, leading to a messier situation. Rewind back to Srilanka, Ltte & IPKF and you will get the drift.

In the world of realpolitik, Might is Right and we need to focus on getting mightier not only economically but geopolitically too.

Trust me when I say this, the situation in Afghanistan will improve only when Pakistan ceases to exist. The Taliban who are still the honored guests of the Pakistan Govt and strut around in Baluchistan will be caught between a rock & a hard place when India, Afghanistan & USA zero in on them.

Prakash
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#332 Posted by cliftonbridge on May 14, 2007 4:03:14 pm
Hajingo

Noone has to believe in religion, its o.k if you dont. And noone has to be patriotic either, it would be nice if people truly came together J Lennon style. But this is the thing with you hajingo ...you arent trying to broaden your horizons, you actually want to narrow them down. Instead of God and country you want to worship the tree your grandfather once pissed on and hate anyone who doesnt worship that tree. Culture worshipping is way more limiting than the ideologies you are railing against. And your ethnic prejudice against the urdu speakers is a case in point.
Your weird fantasies on united punjab are so fricking dumb that pakistani`s and indians alike have to tell you how stupid and unrealistic that concept is. They (east punjab) have moved on , - get over it already. Daymn. Its only been what? 60 years
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#331 Posted by echoboom on May 14, 2007 2:57:09 pm
Re: # 329

Why do you omit ``o`` from God?? In this post every time the word ``God`` has appeared the ``o`` was missing...



So It is quite obvious that it is not a typo.

There is a purpose in there...and the name is Bernard Lewis..a fundmentalist practising Jew,
and thus an honourable & very learned enemy in my esteem...

So do all fundametalist Practising Hindus Sikhs are honourable in my eyes.

They are not secularoons , Kanjaroons, or Murtadoons.

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#330 Posted by dharma on May 14, 2007 1:55:44 pm
Re: # 326
dear ahmad
muslims in india vote more or less as a block, thus weild more political power than their
numbers suggest. With the doubling of their numbers if pakistan is unified with india,
they would completely control the govt as there is no other ideolgy which is more
imperalistic in nature. Indian ethos is unity in diversity and multiple paths to the same
truth. We all see ourselves as different even when we are all hindus. There is no
homogenity in the religion - so it will work as long as hindus are overwhelming majority.
So contrary to what you suggest religon will become important in larger india and islam will
absolutley control the govt and can change the foreign policy and personal laws
significantly to the detremint of majority. And that can trigger a civil war in future.
That is the reason there are no takers for unification in India except for the muslims.
regards
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#329 Posted by haji004 on May 14, 2007 1:19:23 pm
Re: # 324

Why do you omit ``o`` from God?? In this post every time the word ``God`` has appeared the ``o`` was missing...

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#328 Posted by tahmed32 on May 14, 2007 12:52:28 pm
#325 aslam hayat:

1. Ayub Khan no doubt had many urdu-speaking senior bureaucrats. Nevertheless, it was Ayub, and not the bureaucrats, who overthrew the civilian government. I am being realistic, not naive, in saying it was Ayub who started this cancer of military rule.

2. you say I am preaching of redrawing borders of provinces and you are talking of abolishing provincial governments. Can you be more naïve?

disagreeing with you does not necessarily mean i am being naive. Please dont reject this summarily. There is a lot of merit to minimizing layers of government, and to giving people a greater say in their local affairs, and this is increasingly recognized the world over.
de tocqueville, the great french student of US government whose book no doubt spurred on the cause of democracy in France in the 19th century, considered local governments to be the foundation of democracy in the US.

3. you say This is not for the first time that an Army tyrant has propped up the local governments. Ayub did the same thing and named it ``Basic Democracy``...Zia did it and named it ``Union Councils``...

you forget one key difference. the nazim REPLACED the deputy commissioner. BDs and Union Councils did not enjoy the powers given to the nazim.
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#327 Posted by Folio on May 14, 2007 12:45:57 pm
Haji,

I agree with ur views expressed in ur post 320.

I dont fear Echo. He can be cultured. His abuses are: Secularoon, Munafiqoon, Murtadoon or Cantonment canines. It`s like somebody abusing me in Greek or Latin. ;-)

As 4 Xena, I still dont fear. She`s easily pleased or offended.

Give her a banana, she`ll be happy and grin at all of us.

Regards,

Secularoon aka Munafiqoon aka Murtadoon aka Cantonment Canine i.e Folio.
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#326 Posted by haji004 on May 14, 2007 12:29:03 pm
Dharma

Religion can only become a rallying point if a religious minority in a region is persecuted or has fears of persecution. But as we know and as we have seen in the case of Pakistan once religious homogeneity is achieved, religion takes a back seat because religion is nothing but a tranquilizer for those who fear the harsh realities of life...anyway for example...religious parties in Pakistan have been demanding votes in the name of religion since 1947 and before the last elections had never won more than 3% of the seats in the National Assembly. And had it not been the Army`s finance and manipulation plus U.S. attack on Afghanistan that is not isolated from N.W.F.P. and Balochistan the results would have been same...

Now supposedly if Sindh and Punjab re-unify with India and the Indian government decides to maintain the boundaries of these provinces or redraws them in such a manner so as not to affect the religious demographics...I do not see a chance of Islam spilling over in India...

It must however be asserted that there are states in India where Muslims are in minority...for example U.P. bihar, Maharashtar etc...Two things can happen in these states...

Firstly the muslims in these states can be compelled to leave these states to go live in Punjab/Sind or (if they are indigenous ) to change their religion to integerate religiously.

Secondly, non Indigenous Indian Muslims of the north that since the abolition of Feudalism in India consider Afghanistan/Iran etc. as their true home might go to Karachi to live with their urdu-speaking brethren.

Both these factors can disturb the ethnic-demographics of new-Punjabs and Sindh that could be a very big cause of political discontentment in these regions...

In any case rather than Islam spilling over in India...It would be Islam draining out of mainland-India and confining itself into already Muslim inhabited areas that would give India further religious homogeneity and hence long-term stability

Best Regards
Ahmad Hayat
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#325 Posted by haji004 on May 14, 2007 12:06:22 pm
Re: # 321

tahmed you have been extremely naïve in presenting your analysis...

Ayub controlled the country using bureacracy that was loaded with Aligarh educated urdu-speaking bureaucrats. How can you ever forget the likes of Mukhtar Masood.

The second tool of every dictator is the Feudal. Feudalism was not abolished by the ML that was dominated by Feudals from urdu-speaking parts of India and supported by the Indigenous Feudals. The ethnicity of the dictator does not matter since Army is nothing but a tool , that has been utilised by the urdu-speaking bureaucracy, to control the indigenous populations.

Manifesting indigenous culture does not mean singing folk songs. It means control of resource that is only possible via decentralization. How do you think a Punjabi can maintain his identity when Punjabi is not allowed to be taught in schools in Punjab. Not even at the lowest level. What else is the shunning of culture?

Your are so naïve (or infested with this Pakistani-Nationalism disease) that you want to abolish Provincial governments and retain only city governments...so that MQM kan freely kill Sindhis.

I am preaching of redrawing borders of provinces and you are talking of abolishing provincial governments. Can you be more naïve?

70% of the population lives in villages but since the urdu-speakers have never seen villages in their lives they think that Pakistan is an urban society. I really don`t know what to say to you. You passed judgements on my comments like a primary school teacher marks a paper and your wisdom (or ethnic interest perhaps) tells you to abolish provincial governments.

Why not re-implement the British Colonial system? Only city governments ruled by urdu-speaking bureaucrats at the post of Deputy Commisioner and Feudal Lords in the villages.

As for your Nazim approach...You got it wrong as well...This is not for the first time that an Army tyrant has propped up the local governments. Ayub did the same thing and named it ``Basic Democracy``...Zia did it and named it ``Union Councils``...why did they do it?

The thing to understand is ``THERE CAN BE NO DEMOCRACY UNDER FEUDAL RULE``...

A tyrant is a tyrant...doesn`t matter if he is urdu-speaking or Punjabi. Do you think Punjab is being ruled by urdu-speakers??? Its the Punjabi tyrants in the shape of Feudal Lords ( Feudalism that was not abolished by the urdu-speaking ML because they supported ML) that have been ruling Punjab since independence.

Musharraf brought the Nazim System because he controls the ``Feudal Party a.k.a. Muslim League Q as well as MQM and Maulvi PArties`` and hence Pakistan.

Really you do disappoint me with your naïveté...

Best Regards
Ahmad Hayat
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#324 Posted by echoboom on May 14, 2007 12:04:30 pm
When the Enemy talks like this, it is really good news

and it will not be just ``a sea of islam from middle east to Indonesia?`` [ as Dharma writes in
322] but from Date-Line to Date-Line [ InshaAllah] on the SAME DATE.



Lewis: Migration Is Islam`s Latest Key
By: Joseph Puder, For The Bulletin

At 91, Bernard Lewis, the doyen of Middle Eastern studies who for more than half a century has been considered one of the West`s foremost scholars of Islamic history and culture, is the author of more than two dozen books, most notably The Arabs in History, The Emergence of Modern Turkey, The Political Language of Islam and The Muslim Discovery of Europe and is the subject of envy because of his remarkably lucid mind and memory.
Both qualities were on display in a recent talk when he addressed an overflow audience in the ballroom of the Loews Philadelphia Hotel. The program, sponsored by the World Affairs Council of Philadelphia, charged the masterful professor emeritus of Princeton University to lecture on the subject of Europe and Islam.
Professor Lewis, who was recently awarded the Ataturk Peace Award from the Turkish government, began his presentation by illustrating the similarities and differences between Europe and Islam. Europe he said, defined itself as a civilization known as Christendom, in spite of its current post-Christian self-perception. Islam and Christianity share a prominent feature - triumphalism. Both Christianity and Islam believe that they are the sole recipients of G-d`s latest word. Conversely Jews believe in individual salvation through righteousness.
Christians in the 21st century evolved and, in large measure, left the triumphalist creed behind. Islam, currently in its 15th century, is however still deeply entrenched in such beliefs. ``Muslims,`` Lewis said, ``believe that theirs is the only true faith, and it is their duty to bring their faith to the rest of the world.``
In such circumstances, where two similar and yet rival civilizations claim true faith, conflict is inevitable, according to Lewis. Conflict with the Christian West began at the dawn of Islam when Muslim warriors burst out of Arabia and conquered Syria, Palestine and other lands previously held by Christian Byzantium. The Moors conquered Spain, and the Ottoman Turks captured land previously held by Christians, extending their conquest to Europe. In the 17th century, Ottoman Turkish Corsairs raided Western Europe, and Europe was able to recover some of these lands, and enter the Islamic domain in the 18th and 19th centuries.
``We are now experiencing a third attempt to bring Islam to Europe,`` Lewis pointed out.
Unlike the previous attempts that were primarily military in nature, the current Muslim push is through migration and demography. Freedom of expression, economic opportunities and moderate climates encouraged Muslim migration to Western Europe. The contrast between the high birthrates of Arab-Muslims in Europe and the negative rates of native Europeans, who marry late and have fewer children, may finally provide Islam with the chance to Islamize Europe.
The Bin Laden terrorist phenomenon has, according to Lewis, much to do with the perception that jihad defeated the Red Army in Afghanistan. ``The crucial moment`` for the rise of Bin Laden, said Lewis, was the defeat and collapse of the Soviet Union. Some regard that as a Western victory, for Bin Laden, however, it was a victory for Islam and jihad.
According to Lewis, Bin Laden exploited the all too willing Western media. Bin Laden`s argument was that the ``ongoing struggle is between the superceded word of G-d and the latest word of G-d.`` In Bin Laden`s vision, he was chosen to restore Islam and lead it to victory. Lewis explained that as the jihadists see it, the end of the Caliphate (1924) following the abolition of the Ottoman Empire Sultanate (1922) by Kamal Ataturk was for Bin Laden the ``ultimate humiliation.``
For Bin Laden, it is now the final stage in a three-act play. Having ``destroyed the stronger and more deadly superpower`` - the Soviet Union, ``the effeminate American Empire is not a problem.`` Bin Laden attacked U.S. installations in 1998 with impunity. Americans responded with ``angry words`` followed by ``let`s get out of here.`` This attitude began in 1983 Beirut after the U.S. Marine compound was destroyed and 241 U.S. Marines were killed, repeated in Somalia in 1994. Bin Laden`s attacks on American interests continued throughout the 1990s, culminating with Sept. 11, 2001, when Bin Laden opened the third phase - bringing his jihad to America.
Lewis made an interesting observation when noting ``In the Islamic world governments change the elections unlike the U.S. where elections change governments.`` There are three groups of governments in the Islamic world. One, like that of Morocco and the Persian Gulf sheikhdoms, which demand loyalty from their subjects. Another, as with the Fascist Baathist regimes of Syria and Iraq under Saddam that had no roots in the Islamic past and were influenced by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. And, a third group, that includes Turkey and Lebanon, which has genuine democratic institutions. ``Turkey,`` Lewis stressed, ``became a democracy in 1950 when the government lost an election and the opposition took over.``
The resurgence of Islamism and an Islamic agenda is testing Turkey`s secular nature, Lewis suggested. The Turkish parliament led by the AKP (Justice and Development Party, a moderately Islamic party) is seeking to replace the current secular president with the pro-Islamic foreign minister Abdullah Gul (member of the same AKP party). The secular members of parliament responded by staging a walkout and denying the AKP-led government the necessary quorum. Lewis warned that the next election in Turkey ``is crucial.``
Turning to Iraq, Lewis suggests a number of views - one reflected in the media, which is of a ``continuing disaster,`` and another which comes to Lewis from his personal friends in Iraq who ``report positive developments.`` A third view, Lewis claims, is that ``most of Iraq is functioning rather well.`` As he ended his prepared remarks, Lewis surprised everyone by expressing ``cautious optimism`` regarding Iraq. Lewis credited President Bush for being ``tough and consistent`` in Iraq and ridiculed the attitudes of congressional Democrats who oppose the Iraq war and who are saying: ``Unless we win the war by next Tuesday, we are done.``
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