Fake Killings: People as Trophies

Re: # 89

``The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS..................``.

I accept all the figures presented by you from Sachhar Committee as true.
I am not at all surprised, but much much worried.

Not surprised because to get into any of these positions, in our country you have to attain certain minimum qualifications. School leaving certs, University degrees etc.
What percentage of Muslims actually have them? Are educational opportunities being denied to Muslim children?
If so by whom?
Do you want totally unqualified people to be given jobs because they are Muslims?

What is it that worries me?

In my state, the district with majority of its population Muslims, has certain outstanding features. Like having the maximum number of Tata Sumos in the country. Like having the maximum number of mobile phones in the country.
The figures you quote are very much applicable here as well.
So what is the source of income here?

And one tiny question...India has an avowed family planning policy. What percentage of Muslims actually abide by it?
Christians in Kerala are thought to do exceedingly well. The average number of children in their families is 1.5 or less.

Partha,

UC Bannerjee`s assumption can be made to stand on its head.

If no scrap of paper/evidence is not available abt conspiracy then does UCB had a scrap of paper or evidence to conclude that it`s accidental?


As I said the S6 was vandalized by politicians and people alike. The evidence was erased or altered in the form of visits.

My very very important point is why S7 was let off? If the periphery of fire cud go as far as the vestibular door of S6 towards S5 and S5 was partially affected by fire, S7 of S6 side wud have been with fire from the beginning of fire. I dont know why this S7 was cleared coz fire in S6 started from the S7 side of S6.

So nobody has `evidence` but working assumptions abt the origin of fire.

Re: # 94

The point about the fire being accidental was Justice Banerjees, not mine.


``There is no scrap of paper to prove that there was a conspiracy and there was no evidence to prove that petrol was thrown from outside,`` Justice Banerjee said. Repeatedly asked whether the final report was consistent with the interim report, he said, ``Absolutely. It is consistent. I have no reason to change it``.

Asked about the basis of his confirmation on the causes of fire, he said in the light of further evidences available to him, which his committee scanned, ``I reached the conclusion that it was accidental and not deliberate``.

Were the doors locked or open? Unlike what was widely claimed in the aftermath of the tragedy, that the doors were locked and Kar Sewaks failed to get out of the ill-fated coach, Justice Banerjee concluded that the doors of coach No S-6 were open which is why other passengers managed to escape the tragedy. `How come only 59 persons (Kar Sewaks) remained inside the coach and the rest (between 200-250) escaped?` he asks.

http://outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=367780

The train fire, which killed 59 people (many of them VHP activists), was utilised by RSS and VHP activists and by the BJP Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, to incite the Gujarat pogrom and communally divide the state, by demonising muslims. Modi and other Hindu supremacists claimed that a coach carrying mainly VHP activists had been set ablaze by Muslims and that Hindus were, therefore, justified in holding all Muslims responsible for the fire deaths. Another example of a train set on fire similarly, is the recent Samjhuata Express, which was caused by a hybrid bomb.

After analysing the fire, police evidence and the testimony of eye-witnesses, Banerjee found the claim of a Muslim attack to be without foundation. Among other things, there was no mob at the station, only on-lookers; the doors of the coach were not sealed; and many of those on the coach were not VHP activists.

As would be excepted, the BJP and its allies have denounced the Banerjee Commission report.

Justice Bannerjee, though, had pointed out that as per the statements by two police personnel, Raju Bhargav, SP, and Srikumar, Additional Director General of Gujarat Police, there was no crowd as such at the Godhra Station when the tragedy occurred. ``Only onlookers were there, besides women and children. In fact the nearby mosque was attacked.`` He said that SP Raju Bhargav had claimed that he had rushed and imposed curfew immediately.

More than 100 people are still in jail under POTA, in connection with the Godhra incident that had left 59 people dead. The Muslim conspiracy theory had also been challenged by the testimony of DSP K.C. Bawa, who investigated the Godhra incident in the first crucial months, before Justice Nanavati. He had also said that he found no evidence of a conspiracy to burn the train nor any involvement of outside or foreign agencies.

Partha,

I am not saying something that`s not based on facts.

I remember reading in rediff abt people screaming outta S6 with burns on the upper part of the body gave me an impression that there might be a gas leak of a suspected cylinder that`s being carried in S6. But when I visited S6, I cudnt find a spot in S6 that was impacted by a cylinder blast.

The spot where S6 and S5 halted was closer to the cabin. At the spot one can stand but cant reach out to the windows coz the height is 8-9 feet. If at all one cud manage to stand on the track stones but that cant sustain an attack whilst standing on such sloppy stone mound. However one can make an attack on the other side of the S6 since one can stand on an elevated level coz all the tracks are at the same level. BUT the Signal Falia from where people came in a big way is on the side of the Cabin bldg and people mostly reached out there. Whoever escaped the inferno on S6 came out from the other side of S6.

Some can climb on the S6 steps but the way the cross bars damaged of windows 2 and 3 (of the rear side of the S6) indicate serious attack on the windows with some iron rods. However the burn pattern of the whole bogey indicate that fire originated from the front side of the S6 cabin and extended to the rear/other side where S5 is located. The windows were not damaged in the areas where the burns originated. One police officer `believed` that a Muslim tea vendor cut the hard-rubber columns and vestibular clothe to enter the bogey. It`s nearly impossible to imagine but all the police officers were busy `proving` Modi`s theory.

Mr. Chaurasia who`s in S6 but he cant be sure abt the origin of he fire. I agree with ur point that petrol was poured from outside and the bogey was burnt is a wrong assumption. I agree to this line coz there`re no burns on the outer part of S6 below a certain level which means that somebody throwing petrol from outside is ruled out coz petrol thrown from outside wud naturally spreads below (due to gravity) which didnt happen. Fire is originated from inside.

Secondly the closed windows had perforations that are angled downwards making it impossible to `throw` any inflammable liquid.

Lets divide S6 into 9 rooms. By the floor burn patterns I am of the impression that fire wud have started in room 2 or 3 (from the front). I dont see a scenario where somebody extended his hands & threw fire from windows coz the stone throwing made all the passengers shut-off all the windows.

Was anybody cooking inside? I am not sure & even Mr. Chaurasia wasn`t sure. He himself preferred to rule out cooking though I found a big yellow rice bag in the middle of S6. I`ve discussed abt this with Bombay Asian Age chaps - one is a Bong an other is some Mateen*. I think they wrote something abt this line later.

I was interested abt the rice bag coz the sample I took (I didnt keep it now) indicate that the rice variety is Gujarat Sattur or Gujarat17, which is not available in UP but in Gujarat. Since the train is coming from UP and MP, somebody of Gujarat origin MUST be carrying this bag. How Gujarat17 is being brought into Gujarat from UP. Absurd!

My talk with another survivor who`s an office bearer of VHP indicate that they`re NOT carrying any rice 4 cooking.

A VHP guy and a non-VHP Chaurasia confirm that there`s no cooking activity and therefore no stows & cylinders or any signs of explosion but the explosions of human skulls. Btw human body, the seating material inside the train bogey and personal belongings were all inflammable. It all needed a sustained fire to lit the bogey on fire.

OK, this is very long, lets see how this discussion goes.

* Mateen is the crime reporter at Asian Age. He said that I am not secular coz I wrote abt the Muslim attackers.

This secular is a misquoted, misunderstood word in India. This is how MJ Akber runs this newspaper and Deccan Chronicle in India. MJ Akber used/uses Asian Age newspaper to channel Zakat funds & gives quotes on Qoran. On the other hand Shekher Gupta or Dilip Padgaonkar wud never channel funds for a Hindu pilgrimage. They wudnt even write abt their personal faiths. If they do they`d be called as communal. If Akber does write on his personal beliefs & promoting Islamic faith in India it`s secular but if Shekher and Dilip write abt promoting Hindu religion it`s called communal. These people fox us with this convoluted logic on secularism.

Nila,

Arundhati Roy is not just another Booker winner. She is an acclaimed author of course, but more than that, she is now a social worker, taking up different causes, including the `fake encounter` case.

About Gujarat, a reading of tehelka is informative : www.tehelka.com


Folio, #78,

No doubt that you have a theory of what happened at Godhra, and like most Hindus, might not accept the fact that it could ve been accidental. The theories of common men sitting at computers, cannot amount to anything more than rumours and speculation. Modis charges against muslims were however, demonic.

The Banerjee commission however, was privy to all the facts of the case, and the Banerjee committee ... ruled out the possibility of any inflammable liquid being responsible for the fire, as there was first a smell of burning and then a smoke and flames, which would not be the case if inflammable fluid were used. ``The inflammable liquid theory gets negated by the statement of some of the passengers who suffered injuries on the upper portion of the body and not the lower body and who crawled towards the door on elbows and could get out without much injury``, says the Banerjee report. `` ... ``The committee has noted the forensic laboratory`s experiment and verified its conclusion that it was impossible to set fire to the train from outside``, Banerjee concluded. Eliminating the ``petrol theory``, the ``miscreant theory`` and the possibility of an electrical fire, the committee said that the burning was an ``accidental fire``.

The attitude of the police towards muslims in the aftermath, could just be an inkling of the BJP labs experiments. Heres another girl killed in a fake encounter : http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/17guj.htm

Gujarat has the potential to be Indias Palestine, with religion as its mantle-piece.

Partha,

>>>though it is now amply clear that the fire was an accident, probably due to fuel carrying Hindu fanatics. <<<

This is an unsubstantiated statement. U can say that as another working assumption but not as a fact.

I have a range of photographs of S6 and S5 (taken in March 2002) including that of Mr. Chaurasia who was in S6 and who was treated for asphyxia and burns that are not of fire but of the black oil/solvent rags that were thrown in by the attackers.

Fire is still a MYSTERY.

There`s no scientific investigation on S6 (until recently). The scene of crime was vandalised by then by the hungry politicians starting with Modi & his partymen who walked the burnt ramp. Sonia, Sharad and scores of visitors had free access not to mention the hoipolloi and pressmen. Whatever UC Bannerjee & his team laid hands on was a transformed/vandalised S6.

It`s still a surprise that no investigating agency worth its salt sought the footage of the Godhra city photo/videographers and laymen. Nobody cared for the truth or may be the pogrom overtook everything else.

As we all know Modi`s strong point was political arena. So he`s adept in dragging everybody there. It`s much like a crocodile that is mightily powerful in water than on land. Wasn`t it?

Now, if anyone really does want to enter into a reasonable dialogue on a gatade board, I suggest they engage themselves in a logical discussion with zeena ji, who actually has some important points to make.

Nila,

Lady, there is a productive way to interact with a gatade/syed shahabuddin/parthaab, but that way does not lie in the use of human reason, as you have been attempting, valiantly and with nobility.

A humble suggestion: If you can, spend a little time actually reading through http://cli-ml.org/

Understand the mindset.

Understand the morality.

Then everytime you are confronted, here or elsewhere, with another gatade/syed shahabuddin/parthaab, you will instinctively know exactly how to react.

Save the use of your reason where it will bear fruit (that sounds like the basic definition of reasonableness, no?).

Nila,


Godhra and Marad are both strongly condemnable.

The point I am trying to make in Godhra, the major issue here, is the fact that a communal overtone was sought to played by the then Gujarat government, which immediately blamed political extremists belonging to muslims, though it is now amply clear that the fire was an accident, probably due to fuel carrying Hindu fanatics. The result of that, we all know - Gujarat 2002. In a new age where policemen are willing to shoot themselves to `prove` and encounter, nothing is surprising.


In Marad, there was no effort to blame anyone unnecessarily. And you might find it hard to find another example of muslims butchering Hindus in India with such ferocity, if you dont want to believe in RSS propaganda.

Kerala`s former chief minister A.K. Antony, during whicse tenure this happened, has said the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), a political party, was ``the accused No 1`` in the Marad sectarian carnage of 2003.
As many as 79 accused in the first Marad violence were CPI-M workers.
The Judicial Commission had clearly stated that peace efforts between the two communities in the area was not to the liking of the CPI-M, which wanted to exploit communal polarisation in the area.

Will you accuse Mr. Antony of communal bias?

As for Hindus being `secular` (#76), though by and large they are, the definition of secularism followed seems skewed - to mean `tolerance` - another example of hilarious religious definitions, which is a far cry from the European definition, where the state meticulously keeps out of religion.

The Sachar ( another Hindu ) committee report shows how muslims are struggling to keep up with the national figures, which are worse in many cases, than SC/ST figures - which, unlike SC/STs, is a steep slope downwards, considering that muslims a centuries ago, were rulers of this country. You may argue that the Sachar committee was formed only for vote-bank reasons. Be that as it may,

The presence of Muslims has been found to be only 3% in the IAS, 1.8% in the IFS and 4% in the IPS.

Muslim community has a representation of only 4.5% in Indian Railways while 98.7% of them are positioned at lower levels.

Representation of Muslims is very low in the Universities and in Banks.

Their share in police constables is only 6%, in health 4.4%, in transport 6.5%.

There is a clear and significant inverse association between the proportion of the Muslim population and the availability of educational infrastructure in small villages.

Muslim concentration villages are not well served with pucca approach roads and local bus stops.

Substantially larger proportion of the Muslim households in urban areas are in the less than Rs.500 expenditure bracket.




Finally, anyone proven to have killed a person extra judicially, deserves the same fate him/herself.
This holds good for Sikhs, Jews, christians, muslims, and indeed, Hindus as well.

Second - Class Citizens Of Gujarat

By Akash Bisht


16 January, 2007
Hard News


Four years have passed since the state-sponsored Gujarat carnage shook the entire nation,leaving hundreds dead and lakhs displaced and brutalised, but till this day many of the survivors of the post-Godhra killings have not found their way back home. These exiled `second-class citizens` are living in inhuman conditions in make-shift camps and are deprived of basic amenities, like potable water, sanitary facilities, street lights, schools, banks, public transport and primary healthcare centres. Recent visits by members of the National Commission for Minorities (NCM) and a Parliamentary committee revealed the pathetic state of more than 5,000 Muslim families living in these sub-human camps in Ahmedabad and Sabarkantha districts of Gujarat. Both the `secular` Left-backed UPA regime and the Narendra Modi-led BJP government, which tacitly and overtly backed the genocide, seem to have left the people to their fate, and rather intentionally.

Living in 10 x 10 rooms with large families to support, basic civic amenities are denied to the people of these colonies. An NCM team, comprising Michael P Pinto, Zoya Hasan, Dileep Padgaonkar and A Banerji, visited the `relief camps` and noted that the roads that lead to these colonies
are non-existent. They also came to know how two boys drowned in the water collected at a road near a village during the last monsoon. The team also noticed that the residents had no means of earning livelihood to support their families. Many of these residents were artisans, industrialists and self-employed traders, who now face organised discrimination by their old clients, Hindutva supporters, the local administration and police; they find it extremely difficult to earn even a meagre income to support their large families in a state where their isolation and condemnation is absolute, relentless and precise.

The NCM team witnessed abject poverty in these camps and discovered that but for a few houses, most of them had little except bare minimum bedding and utensils. ``Most of the residents of these colonies had no ration cards and the ones that were issued by the government were of the
Above Poverty Line (APL) category, instead of the Below Poverty Line (BPL) category,`` revealed A Banerji, joint secretary in the NCM. The residents have little source of income and are forced to buy food grains at much higher rates. The BJP government has done nothing to help out these victims, many of whom went through personal tragedies and deaths, and who have been now dumped to fend for themselves.

Ironically, the NCM, in its report, revealed that not a single colony was constructed by the state government, nor was any land allotted to these families, while, earlier last year, the Modi regime returned Rs 19 crore to the centre, stating that all the relief work across the state for riot victims had been done. The NCM team found out that the government did not
rehabilitate those who could not return to their homes after the killings. All of them, predictably, are Muslims.

The residents complained of inadequate compensation; a maximum compensation of Rs 10,000 was given to them. Muslim organisations and NGOs took up their cause and bought land for these displaced people at high commercial rates. But due to deliberate lack of support from a biased
and compromised state government, these organisations have not been able to provide the basic amenities and livelihood options in these colonies. The report read, ``The implications that this has for the security and well being of civil society as a whole are extremely serious.``

The state government came under fire from the Parliamentary committee for its failure to rehabilitate victims of the post-Godhra killings and found that the BJP-led regime was stunningly indifferent to the plight of the people who had been displaced en masse after the blood bath of 2002 in Gujarat. The members of the committee claimed that the riot victims are being ghettoised and forced to live in pitiable surroundings. The committee also requested the centre to intervene to help the victims and criticised the Gujarat government for surrendering Rs 19 crore out of the Rs 150 crore that the Centre had given to the state for rehabilitation of the survivors.

Residents of these colonies also spoke to the respective committees about the atmosphere of insecurity in which they are being forced to live. ``The team received several complaints about the hostile attitude of the police towards the residents of these colonies or their representatives who have taken up their problems with relevant authoritiesŠ`` read the NCM report.

Narrating his story, Sheikh Naushad Rasol, in a public meeting held in New Delhi, said, ``My entire family is living in a very small room and there are many other families that don`t have even this. Muslims in Gujarat are in a terrified state and are living with the stigma of being Muslims. We are not given any jobs and eventually it`s our women who are cleaning utensils in
houses for a paltry sum of Rs 200 to support their families.``

One of Gujarat`s biggest garbage dumps is just outside Ahmedabad and right next to Citizen Nagar, a colony constructed for the survivors of the Naroda Patiya carnage. This colony is home to several epidemics that haunt the residents. But, most of these displaced families still believe it is much safer to stay in these camps rather than returning to their homes.

``Children are being forced to leave schools and are constantly asked by their classmates and teachers to leave India and go to Pakistan. Abdul, an engineer by profession before the genocide, is now selling toys, as nobody is ready to offer him a job because of his Muslim identity,`` informed journalist Dionne Bunsha in a public meeting to relaunch her book on Gujarat: Scarred. Bunsha also mentioned how fundamentalists, like VHP leader Babu Bajrangi, one of the accused in the killings, are openly terrorising the minorities by training people in shooting, judo and martial arts and organising vicious propaganda attacks. He recently led a
violent campaign to beat up couples in parks and especially targeted Muslims. Numerous signboards welcoming Hindus to the `Hindurashtra` can be seen all over the place, as if Gujarat is a `Hindu republic` outside secular India. Narrating an incident, Bunsha informed that a Hindu girl married to a Muslim was forced to abort her child and the boy was brutally beaten up by VHP activists.

However, the report brought out by the NCM and the Parliamentary committee only highlights the problem in some parts of Gujarat. ``They surveyed only a few areas and could bring forward issues pertaining only to these families while there are many other areas and families in Gujarat that are facing similar issues. The numbers are much higher than the count of 5,000 that is being put forward by these committees. One has to visit entire Gujarat to assess the real situation and see the deadly plight of hundreds of people who have been forced to be condemned in sub-human ghettos,`` revealed Father Cedric Prakash, director of an NGO, Prashant, who recently won the `Minorities Rights Award` for his work in favour of human rights in the country.

The state government seems uninterested in lending a helping hand to these riot victims. However, the central government is likely to announce a relief package for the victims of Gujarat violence in line with the compensation awarded to the 1984 riot victims. This move will definitely come as relief for several families, which have received hardly any support from the
Gujarat government despite suffering loss of their members and friends and property. But the real question that should still haunt the minds of the minorities in Gujarat is how will the central government put an end to the trauma and stigma faced by Indian Muslims for being patriotic Indian citizens in the saffronised, Hindutva state of Narendra Modi`s BJP-led Gujarat.

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Nila,

Enhance ur knowledge on Godhra by reading Shahabuddin????? Big mistake!

He`s the same guy who gave call to boycott Republic Day celebrations and added fuel to fire along with Hindoo fundoos until it reached climax on 6th Dec 1992.

Btw, he still prefers to call Indian Muslims as Muslim Indians and runs a journal in that name. This Muslim Indians is the same word coined and used by IUML 2 achieve Pakistan.

Think abt these guyz b4 u read them coz I already pointed out the hole in his article.

Re: # 60

``And then happened the unfortunate incidents at Marad (5). At around 6.30 p.m. on May 2, 2003, a group of Muslim extremists who formed four groups, armed with lethal weapons attacked a group of unsuspecting fishermen belonging to Araya community. Within just half–an–hour, when the police came on the scene, there were nine dead bodies and over a score severely injured men and women on the beach.
It is now evident that the mosque and the mosque committee was involved,....... and the biggest cache of weapons seized by the police came from the mosque premises, showing a wider communal conspiracy.``

Usually when I come across such articles I read them and move on. In the hope that good sense will prevail among the perpetrators and the victims.

I don`t remember recommending such articles for wider circulation.

But when I am told to read Shahabbudin`s articles to enhance my knowledge on Godhra, I am compelled to go back to such articles as well.

By the way the above piece was from an article by a Binu Mathew, not a Booker Prize winner, but certainly``an activist without a communal or any other agenda, except maybe being a nationalist ``as will be evidenced by the rest of the above article.

Re: # 83
Tolkinin you`ll deserve the last word when you can see both sides of an issue. Otherwise you are just another needler.

Dear gentlemen,

We approximate when we assess communities. Dont we?

However how can we forget Ila Bhatt, MK Gandhi and Verghese Kurien (naturalised Gujarati) and the like?

The modern day Gujarati is a staunch saffronite. Godhra attacker Muslims and Modi share the same caste!! At the height of madness we saw Geetaben (sidharth Varadarajan reported it in detail) hacked to death by normal society neighbours for the sin of marrying a Muslim. A Trivedi Brahmin gilr in Baroda was stabbed along with her Muslim husband. A secular Prof. Bandukwala`s house was set on fire.

I heard of dozens of cases of cutting people into pieces..........

There`s no introspection..........madness has political dividends.

#82 you understand exactly the issue but if you want the last WORD u can have IT

i will not POST ANY MORE

Re: # 81

Mr.Tolkinin. firstly do not obfuscate.
Secondly there are many skeletons in Bill G`s closet.
Thirdly Gujaratis do community service. Ask Folio he`ll tell you.
Did you mean you donated your used skeleton? -)

Cheers.