Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan

Romair sahib

(In fact, I would not even consider India, really, a secular society.........It is more of a multi-religious society...........In secular societies, one generally sees a casual and almost indifferent attitude towards even personal religion........Much like in Europe......... )

It is immaterial whether a state has a religious society or is populated by religious or “secular” people, the question is whether the state itself is secular or not. Even a state which is populated by an intensely religious population (India and US are very good examples) can be (reasonably) secular states. Which would also imply that there is no reason why Pakistan in spite of being a very religious society can not be a secular state (if the people of Pakistan want it that way, of course). In fact MAJ (pbuh) had more or less come to that conclusion 60 years go on Aug 11, 1947 to be precise. I am sure Manto mian can e-mail to u the whole speech.

(I am quite amazed how such an extremely diverse country like India can remain one country.......)

Democracy may be one good answer. The other may be that it may actually be the sheer diversity, which prevents a grand divide, which can split the nation down the middle. In the case of Pak, W Pak v/s E Pak and now post 1971 Punjab vs rest or Russians vs rest in USSR. By contrast there is no hegemony of a single ethnic group, which can create sharp polarisation. The only thing which can is the Hindu-Muslim religious divide, which indeed does create problems at time.

Regards

Re:#307 by Mantolives:

Dear Shri Mantolives; you have simply lost the plot. Most of the Indians had credible objections to Ahmed Hayat`s desire for reunification with India. They did not want it....period...........

In fact I personally want to see a Pakistan that is democratic, secular and credible (Shri Jinnah`s original concept) and not what we see, hear and read about...........most certainly not what you have written, especially about India...............

So Shri Mantolives, stick to facts and you can still turn out to be a credible writer.

Yasser Latif Hamdani,

You are a shyster on the model of your idol Mohammad Ali Jinnah. You keep on claiming that Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan whereas Nehru rejected it. You further make the claim that the Congress could have accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan (CMP) and then in the Constituent Assembly change the things they didn`t like in the CMP.

The facts are:

Jinnah accepted the CMP.

Nehru had violent objections to the CMP. But he also accepted it.

Nehru then issued a statement that once the British left India, the Congress would be free to draft a Constitution according to its own plans.

Jinnah cried foul and withdrew his acceptance of the CMP.

You KNOW this is the truth.

But you are trying to whitewash the crimes of Jinnah and the Muslim League.

No wonder Indians are not buying your crap. And of course the Pakistanis aren`t buying your crap about Pakistan becoming a secular state.

So, move to the US and get US citizenship real fast. Before they make body cavity searches for Pakistani citizens mandatory at county lines.

Chennai mian,

I haven`t read Mr. Ahmad Hayat`s piece nor do I feel the need to respond to it. People have been predicting this for many years ... only the date keeps changing.... In 1997 it was 2005... now it is 2020...

If it happens... it happens... but so far I see little for Indians to be so optimisitc.

Dear Teshah,

The problem again is one of conception. Far from it that I dictate to you as what to think for that is your god given right... except that the generation that sang tarana-e-Hindi as children is probably less than a couple of million in Pakistan today. My generation (under 30) numbers 100 million Pakistanis.... and none of them have anything to do with Tarana-e-Hindi... hence no such issues for us.

Ofcourse I still believe that Cabinet Mission Plan was the best solution for all concerned then but I am glad today that Pakistan exists on the map.


Dear Madani sb,

Thank you for the encouragement as usual.

Masanamuthu,

Whenever anyone ``echoes`` someone like Mohar... it is trouble for the echoer as well as the echoee. It was the Indians who brought up the reference to Mayawati... and Dalits ... not me.


Rafay:

``YLH: Let me be the devil`s advocate (you know I always agree with what you think ;): Do away with the provinces. They model is outdated anyway. Keep the Districts and the Federation. In the age of the internet and mobile phones, what does the Province do anyway (other than misuse the police)? Get the idea?``

That is a great idea on paper. Decentralising the old provincial units would strengthen the federation no doubt. But how would all the various ethnic factions and groups react to this is my question...

Still this idea- you will no doubt appreciate as our country`s brilliant legal mind- does not impact the three house idea in #200... per se.

Re: # 297

Dictetors and corropt generals and prime ministers come and go but Pakistan and pakistani people go ahead. Always may be one step backward but two step forward.
When people are young they make mistake in hurry and due unsurmontable energies and youthful forgetfullness and they are maturing. Man should look at what they say when they mature. Poet of East MO. thinker of Pakistan also said ``sare Jahansre acchha etc... but he asked for pakistan or Quaid also though when young of people of differt religion can coexist but he came later to differnt conclusions as muslim and others can not live together. Pakistan will definitely be there but esistanace of india is such odds aginst it. I do not want breaking of countries.

Re: # 297
Please comment on trilateral house.
Indian model can not work in pakistan as its indian and many people here has shown it is failure and noboy wants to try failure and reinforce failure.
Forget manto but concentrate on his idea of stable tringle.

Re: # 299
He looks good. Lost weight also. He looks resigned as BB is stabbing him in back. He can get job in stupid hindi movie as father of heroine. ( Just joke, he has improved his thinking and has moderated is welcome.)
Actually BB,NS and altafbhai let them come home to their areas of hold and control.
Let us start aginst, forgive and forget same with president give him one term , last term and he should give promise to people this is his last term. Let anger of big power hunter be become like shephard of all people and let them walk tall on their motherland and all be friend as brother , sisters and friends.

Re: # 297,

If you do not like mato aka YLH that is fine personal taste and cultural background.
Sad part is that up to now all indians and pakistanies have considered and discussed why democracy did not work in past.
To YLH credit only , he is only to give some constructive solution to bring democracy real peaople`s democracy. I consider very good thinking and constructive attitude swolution. In 1800s all discussed what is wrong with capitalism and only K.Marx advocated the suggestion may be wrong imperfect and unislamic but it was advancement. Similarly YLH is not struck in history as some say ( Partition and Jinnahism etc) he is proposing solution to problem. Let Desis discass the suggested solution and constructive criticsm so he can get input to think from various angles and fortify and make advancement in model of 3 houses. As amature mathematacian of low order three is very good no like tringle with three side very stable structure and easy to balance or three points define compact area. I feel YLH is arriving some thing a stable model for democracy and three centers of powers cutting excessive power of CEO of pakistan and prime Minister.
This something creative intelluctual is combination imagination , construction and emotion for poor people and for law and justice and his secular spiritual distillation of thoughts of Jinnah, Kemal Pasha and Holy Koran.
Hope intelluct ual type expaks discuss about his model and forget about little silly quarrels and name calling.
Welcome Manto, as any reformer Manto is getting bricks. I feel now they are neglecting 3 house model ,( look at venomus attacks by elites and diverting attention on superficial things) then govt and elites and nonpunjabi ethinic nationalist elites will try suppress and as time has come for this idea when can not suppress they will join 3 house theory.

Re: # 288

Dear Manto

Very interesting indeed! It all looks so absurd to my generation which was born as Indians and sang the `tarana` of Iqbal `Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamaara`. We can still call India a mother-land or perhaps grand-mother land to be more apt though I could not get a visa to visit my grand-mother despite my repeated efforts only because legally the Paki citizenship has been imposed upon me. My point is that why make motherland (Watan) or citizenship a political or legal issue. My motherland (Des or watan) was, in the first place, Punjab and then India (Now called `Sub-continent`), but in between came the legal and political identity of Pakistan (formerly `West Pakistan`). My question now is: Can motherland, `watan` or `des` be treated as a politcal and/or legal dispensation?

To make my point clear; take the Kashmir issue. Indan-held Kashmiries are clamouring for joining Pakistan. Notwithstanding the absurdity of the demand, I wonder why the Indian Government is reluctant to agree to it. They can very conveniently change the name of Kashmir to Pakistan and impose there the military rule formally (which virtually is already in place there) to make it more realistic. After all there were two Pakistans, East and West, before the name of one of them was changed to Bangla Desh. For that matter, why can`t thare be an
Indian Pakistan and a Paky Pakistan like Indian Punjab and Paki Punjab.

Hey guys and gals! Check out the new look of Nawaz Sharif! The hair transplant procedure seems to have gone well. I guess that he is ready for elections now:

Re: # 291 Manto

``...There is one constitution (which I dislike for many reasons) of 1973... which has had many amendments and additions since 1973. Nor is it suspended right now... it was suspended twice 1977-1984 and then 1999-2002.... when Provisional Constitutional Order was in force...``

Thanks for correcting me. Given the checkered constitutional history of the land of the `original constitutionalist`, I was not sure if the PCO was still in effect. By the way, the PCO itself is unconstitutional, isn`t it? (Oh, I forgot, unless it is forced down the barrel of a gun on a pliant supreme court). Ciao!

Re: #292 by Mantolives ::``so I am frankly stumped why Indians like you and Chennai over here persist on proving to yourself that you did the right thing by rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan... you did it... right or wrong ... no need to apologise and think up new and colorful excuses for it.``

YLH: It would be interesting to understand your definition of ``apologise`` & ``excuse``. I really dont not see any such thing from us.

BTW your article refers to India several times, mostly displaying ignorance and often containing absurd contradictions. e.g;

`` While post-partition continuity of a ``Secular Democratic India`` has masked many of the problems that exist on the ground level, even today the majority of smaller regional and communal groups remain marginalised from the mainstream.

And then, this!

``Nevertheless the erosion of the Congress Party however and the rise of smaller regional and other ideological alliances has made it possible for smaller groups to play a greater role in the destiny of their homeland. ``

Is this article a knee jerk reaction to Ahmed Hayat`s article and his famous tag line `` Pakistan would cease to exist by 2020``

If yes, I am sure all Indians would understand!!

Mantolives:

Echoing Mohar.. I was brought into this because of unnecessary references to Mayawati and Dalits.

Indians should get some interest in history and read about the events around 47. It is amazing that we escaped courting disaster by a whisker.

Re: # 292

Dude - your article itself refers india a bunch of times... so why can`t indians comment? anycase - in chowk, everything is always about india and pakiland... :)

Cabinet Mission thing in particular is an interesting piece of work... frankly, I didn`t know much about before... most indians don`t... so I guess, it has been an eye-opener... indians are amazed how close they came to disaster and how narrowly avoided it thanks to nehru and patel`s timely action...

That`s all...