Secularism, Positive Communalism and the Pluralist State
Sangeeta Mahapatra May 20, 2007
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#81 Posted by MantoLives on May 24, 2007 9:51:38 pm
``Division of sindh``
This is what happens when one does not read history and imagines it in one`s head. Shishapa is a classic clase.
It is the inherent contradiction in Congress` stance... of abusing Muslim League and yet calling for the division of Punjab and Bengal along communal lines. The idea of Pakistan was based on existing provinces reconstituting themselves around a new center... it was Congress that wanted to cut them again and again...
And when they did... they also forced the hand of Mountbatten- their new Caucasian Devta- to give the Muslim majority areas of Ferozepur/Gurdaspur to India... which is where the majority of the partition violence occured.
First CMP was sacrificed... then the Unity of the provinces ... then even the principle that Congress itself had imposed on Muslim League ... all too fulfill the truly poisonous and insidious power-seeking agenda of Congress leaders who despite their tall claims were blue blooded caste Hindu fascists.
This is what happens when one does not read history and imagines it in one`s head. Shishapa is a classic clase.
It is the inherent contradiction in Congress` stance... of abusing Muslim League and yet calling for the division of Punjab and Bengal along communal lines. The idea of Pakistan was based on existing provinces reconstituting themselves around a new center... it was Congress that wanted to cut them again and again...
And when they did... they also forced the hand of Mountbatten- their new Caucasian Devta- to give the Muslim majority areas of Ferozepur/Gurdaspur to India... which is where the majority of the partition violence occured.
First CMP was sacrificed... then the Unity of the provinces ... then even the principle that Congress itself had imposed on Muslim League ... all too fulfill the truly poisonous and insidious power-seeking agenda of Congress leaders who despite their tall claims were blue blooded caste Hindu fascists.
#80 Posted by MantoLives on May 24, 2007 9:45:18 pm
Harimau,
Little knowledge is always dangerous... but when combined with stupidity ... it is deadly. The only reason why ``Bengal legislators`` voted was because Sarat and Kiran Shankar Roy were forced by Nehru to adopt the all India party line.
Shishapa,
If religion creeping into independence struggle was the original sin (which I tend to agree with), then it follows logically (from your assertion) that birth of Mohandas Karamchand ``Mahatma`` Gandhi was the single greatest crime that was inflicted on the United Subcontinent, as it was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi who - no matter how hard you try to distort the facts- was singly responsible for introducing religious fascism in politics. Fighting for one`s community is a political and not a religious issue. That the community maybe religious or is based on religion... is a separate issue altogher.
Folio,
Speaking for the rights for one`s community after being thrown against the wall despite the fact that one had bent over backwards to accomodate the concerns of the majority, must sound like a poisonous ``aganda`` to those like you... but I can assure you that given your general behavior on this website, I am quite happy about the poisonous ``aganda``.
Little knowledge is always dangerous... but when combined with stupidity ... it is deadly. The only reason why ``Bengal legislators`` voted was because Sarat and Kiran Shankar Roy were forced by Nehru to adopt the all India party line.
Shishapa,
If religion creeping into independence struggle was the original sin (which I tend to agree with), then it follows logically (from your assertion) that birth of Mohandas Karamchand ``Mahatma`` Gandhi was the single greatest crime that was inflicted on the United Subcontinent, as it was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi who - no matter how hard you try to distort the facts- was singly responsible for introducing religious fascism in politics. Fighting for one`s community is a political and not a religious issue. That the community maybe religious or is based on religion... is a separate issue altogher.
Folio,
Speaking for the rights for one`s community after being thrown against the wall despite the fact that one had bent over backwards to accomodate the concerns of the majority, must sound like a poisonous ``aganda`` to those like you... but I can assure you that given your general behavior on this website, I am quite happy about the poisonous ``aganda``.
#79 Posted by majumdar on May 24, 2007 9:31:18 pm
Manto,
Sarat Bose and Kiran Shankar Roy were indeed in favour of an independent Bengal. Fortunately, JLN and SPV gave the two short-sighted a******** a royal flogging when they flew to Delhi to meet the INC high command (if I my memory serves me right) and got them to agree to partitioning Bengal. Thank God for that.
Regards
Sarat Bose and Kiran Shankar Roy were indeed in favour of an independent Bengal. Fortunately, JLN and SPV gave the two short-sighted a******** a royal flogging when they flew to Delhi to meet the INC high command (if I my memory serves me right) and got them to agree to partitioning Bengal. Thank God for that.
Regards
#78 Posted by harimau on May 24, 2007 9:25:17 pm
Ref Shah2 #74
[....Just to recapitulate, Sachar Committee submitted its report (November 2006). The committee after extensive home work found that the Muslim minority is way behind the national averages in most of the parameters of social development, its economic status has been sliding seriously, its representation in jobs, bank loans is abysmal, and its representation in the political process has been very poor and worsening on the top of that. In sum and substance, Muslim community is under-represented in most of the arenas of society barring the jails. One also recalls the report of Gopal Singh committee of 1982 which also had found the poor status of this minority. Gopal Singh committee report kept lying in the deep freeze while the issues like Ram Temple kept hogging the national attention. To add up one can say this community`s representation as riot victim is way above its percentage in population. The committee has recommended that an Equal Opportunity Commission should be set up, a national data bank should be started, a nomination procedure should be started to ensure their participation in public bodies, in order to promote religious tolerance by a procedure to evaluate text books for appropriate social values, so on and so forth.]
For 1000 years, under various Nawabs, Sultans, Moghul Emperors, etc., the sole qualification for a job was a name like Khuda Bux or Vilayat Khan. Despite that, if the subcontinent`s Muslims find themselves at the bottom of the social heap, they have to introspect and ask themselves what went wrong instead of asking for hand-outs from the government.
But they won`t do it and Manmohan Singh the Neutered would do everything to keep the Muslim vote-bank in the corner of Congress. So you can expect not just the Haj subsidy but even quotas for being a flat-liner (EEG-wise) who learns crap at the local madrassah.
In the meanwhile, the country goes to the dogs. Or b!tches of Italian descent, if you get my drift.
[....Just to recapitulate, Sachar Committee submitted its report (November 2006). The committee after extensive home work found that the Muslim minority is way behind the national averages in most of the parameters of social development, its economic status has been sliding seriously, its representation in jobs, bank loans is abysmal, and its representation in the political process has been very poor and worsening on the top of that. In sum and substance, Muslim community is under-represented in most of the arenas of society barring the jails. One also recalls the report of Gopal Singh committee of 1982 which also had found the poor status of this minority. Gopal Singh committee report kept lying in the deep freeze while the issues like Ram Temple kept hogging the national attention. To add up one can say this community`s representation as riot victim is way above its percentage in population. The committee has recommended that an Equal Opportunity Commission should be set up, a national data bank should be started, a nomination procedure should be started to ensure their participation in public bodies, in order to promote religious tolerance by a procedure to evaluate text books for appropriate social values, so on and so forth.]
For 1000 years, under various Nawabs, Sultans, Moghul Emperors, etc., the sole qualification for a job was a name like Khuda Bux or Vilayat Khan. Despite that, if the subcontinent`s Muslims find themselves at the bottom of the social heap, they have to introspect and ask themselves what went wrong instead of asking for hand-outs from the government.
But they won`t do it and Manmohan Singh the Neutered would do everything to keep the Muslim vote-bank in the corner of Congress. So you can expect not just the Haj subsidy but even quotas for being a flat-liner (EEG-wise) who learns crap at the local madrassah.
In the meanwhile, the country goes to the dogs. Or b!tches of Italian descent, if you get my drift.
#77 Posted by samar1982 on May 24, 2007 9:07:46 pm
Re: # 74, Shah2,
There are many factual errors in the cited article and it doesn`t contain anything new.
By the way, I have always wondered why reservations are not being provided on the basis of income in place of caste/religious lines. I mean what are the problems of formulating and implementing reservations on these lines when many other schemes are being implemented in the same way. My take on this is that always the powerful elite and undeserving candidates of these backward castes/religions make noises against this so that they can keep on getting the benefits of these reservations. In case of Hindoos these preferred lower caste people start posing like some Brahminical uper caste people. They start celebrating festivals, keep fasts, start looking into Panchangs and all in the way the brahmins do. When faced with a situation where they have to take sides they don`t side with there own castes. In case of Muslims the same is most likely to happen.
Samar
There are many factual errors in the cited article and it doesn`t contain anything new.
By the way, I have always wondered why reservations are not being provided on the basis of income in place of caste/religious lines. I mean what are the problems of formulating and implementing reservations on these lines when many other schemes are being implemented in the same way. My take on this is that always the powerful elite and undeserving candidates of these backward castes/religions make noises against this so that they can keep on getting the benefits of these reservations. In case of Hindoos these preferred lower caste people start posing like some Brahminical uper caste people. They start celebrating festivals, keep fasts, start looking into Panchangs and all in the way the brahmins do. When faced with a situation where they have to take sides they don`t side with there own castes. In case of Muslims the same is most likely to happen.
Samar
#76 Posted by KaalChakra on May 24, 2007 8:11:39 pm
And why on earth is a good man like you turning himself into a terrorist and is driving away from India? :(
#75 Posted by KaalChakra on May 24, 2007 8:01:21 pm
What`s the point in quoting countersense, shah2 bro? You found something sensible in it?
#74 Posted by Shah2 on May 24, 2007 5:48:39 pm
#72 Kal
Do you want to let 140 million indian muslim exert there citizens right
or
drive them out branding them terrorist
and non hiduised or non sanscritised enough......
Communalism Or Affirmativ
21 December, 2006
Countercurrents.org
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh`s statement to the National Development Council that we need ``to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably in the fruits of development, these must have first claim on resources`` was backed up by the statement in Parliament by the minister of minorities affairs that Government will implement the recommendations of Sachar Committee, have on one hand acted as the ray of hope for the `discriminated against` Muslim minorities, while on the other hand RSS combine has started crying fowl, BJP asserting that it is rank communalism, its ideologues saying that these steps of the govt are in the footsteps of Jinnah. BJP has raised the serious question mark on the very formation of this committee calling it unnecessary and it being against the interest of the nation.
Just to recapitulate, Sachar Committee submitted its report (November 2006). The committee after extensive home work found that the Muslim minority is way behind the national averages in most of the parameters of social development, its economic status has been sliding seriously, its representation in jobs, bank loans is abysmal, and its representation in the political process has been very poor and worsening on the top of that. In sum and substance, Muslim community is under-represented in most of the arenas of society barring the jails. One also recalls the report of Gopal Singh committee of 1982 which also had found the poor status of this minority. Gopal Singh committee report kept lying in the deep freeze while the issues like Ram Temple kept hogging the national attention. To add up one can say this community`s representation as riot victim is way above its percentage in population. The committee has recommended that an Equal Opportunity Commission should be set up, a national data bank should be started, a nomination procedure should be started to ensure their participation in public bodies, in order to promote religious tolerance by a procedure to evaluate text books for appropriate social values, so on and so forth.
Whatever one could glean from the yet to be initiated policies being reflected in the statements of the government functionaries, it seems to be taking it a seriously. Steps are being contemplated, short of reservations to improve the lot of the Muslim minorities. It is a matter of conjuncture whether this Govt is really serious about it or is it a mere replay of the earlier broken promises during last several decades. During last several decades while Governments after Governments have been promising to look after the problems of Muslim minorities, nothing much came out. This includes not only the longest reign of Congress party but also of the one`s of formations in which BJP was an important component or supporter. Amongst multiple reasons of this neglect of this minority one was the aggressive propaganda of Hindu right that Government is out to `appease` the Muslims so that they can be used as vote banks. One does not know whether this aggressive anti minority propaganda did contribute to the policies of the government, but one can say for sure that this `appeasement of minorities` had become a part of `social common sense` in the face of the worsening situation of Muslims.
It is during last two decades that not only Muslim minority was battered through the post-Babri demolition violence and Gujarat carnage, it was during the same period that another big minority the Christians also started being attacked, especially in the remote Adivasi areas. Where do we go from here? Was the commissioning of Sachar an act of appeasement? Will the implementation of measures to alleviate their plight be communalism, as claimed by RSS combine?
India has inherited a negative legacy of partition. While the major part of the country was for democracy and secularism, the communalists, Muslim League and Hindu Mahsaba, RSS were for Islamic Nation and Hindu nation respectively. Their ideologies served the British `divide and rule` policy very well. With partition tragedy, the communal propaganda here went on getting sharper over a period of time, saying that Muslims have been responsible for partition, the subtle nuances and policies which led to partition were deliberately underplayed and put under the carpet. The role of elite of both communities in partition tragedy was put aside and the process to blame the whole Muslim community for this tragedy started, and this identity of Muslim minorities started becoming a negative one. This was in contrast to the dalits, who were also underprivileged but their identity came in as a positive one and the reservations, which came for them came to be accepted to some extent.
Even in their case the Hindu right and their followers did sabotage the whole reservation process in order to keep the status quo of Brahminmical system, in newer garb though. That`s how while the reservations were subtly sabotaged, the implementation of Mandal was countered by the Babri demolition, Mandal opposed by Kamadal. Essentially the RSS combine is against any affirmative action which can lead to social transformation towards substantive equality. In the case of Muslims, to demonize them is no big deal for this formation, RSS combine. The propaganda is simpler; `they` created Pakistan now through such measure for their uplift, foundation for another Pakistan is being laid down.
In democracy, the concept of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity (community) remains at a formal level unless one does proactive action to undo the inherent infirmities of sections of society. One notices this in most of the advanced democracies including the United States where serious proactive steps were initiated for the African Americans. The politics of right wing and more so right wing in the name of religion is against affirmative action. For them, democracy itself is not an acceptable concept. Today they pay lip service to democracy so that they can use it to subvert it, to bring in a Hindu nation based on refined values, social relations, from Manu Smriti. Democracy is neither their goal nor the cherished value system. They nurture the hope to have Hindu Rashttra and inherent hierarchies of caste and gender. And any affirmative action cannot be tolerated by them.
What is being called rank communalism is essentially a bit of affirmative action. Surely even the reservations, which were brought in for Dalits have improved their conditions slightly, so now a full fledged opposition to those polices in different language has been unleashed. While in the case of minorities not only the condition is bad as of today, the bigger worry is that it is sliding towards worse very rapidly. We need to distinguish abuse of community identity for politics and the bowing to the institution of religion from the concrete economic steps, social actions to support the weaker sections of society. Will the community identity become strong due to this? Will the community become crippled due to this?
If one notices amongst the dalits who have slightly benefited from reservations, their community identity has loosened up. It is a contradictory process, as such you bring a community to economic level the religious or caste identity becomes weaker and other identities start becoming stronger. When a community is so helpless due to political reasons, how can this affirmative action cripple them? As such a lack of such an action will cripple them forcing more of them to go in the aberrant way. Already a large section of youth from them is being targeted on any small pretext, the number of them in jails is appalling. Surly that`s what RSS combine wants and any hindrance to the measures meant to uplift them will worsen their condition.
To revoke Jinnah at this stage is deliberate. The idea is to frighten and polarize the upper castes/middle sections of society around the politics of Hindu right. While Jinnah played the card for Muslim elite, the current efforts, if at all they come through, are for the poorer sections of society, which in no way can be labeled as communalism. As such had there not been the fear of backlash of RSS combine, reservations for Muslims would be the ideal solution out of this impasse. In the present scenario all steps short of reservations should and need to be taken to work towards the democratic goal of equality.
For Publication/Translation/ Circulation
www.pluralindia.com
Leave A Comment
&
Share Your Insights
Do you want to let 140 million indian muslim exert there citizens right
or
drive them out branding them terrorist
and non hiduised or non sanscritised enough......
Communalism Or Affirmativ
21 December, 2006
Countercurrents.org
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh`s statement to the National Development Council that we need ``to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably in the fruits of development, these must have first claim on resources`` was backed up by the statement in Parliament by the minister of minorities affairs that Government will implement the recommendations of Sachar Committee, have on one hand acted as the ray of hope for the `discriminated against` Muslim minorities, while on the other hand RSS combine has started crying fowl, BJP asserting that it is rank communalism, its ideologues saying that these steps of the govt are in the footsteps of Jinnah. BJP has raised the serious question mark on the very formation of this committee calling it unnecessary and it being against the interest of the nation.
Just to recapitulate, Sachar Committee submitted its report (November 2006). The committee after extensive home work found that the Muslim minority is way behind the national averages in most of the parameters of social development, its economic status has been sliding seriously, its representation in jobs, bank loans is abysmal, and its representation in the political process has been very poor and worsening on the top of that. In sum and substance, Muslim community is under-represented in most of the arenas of society barring the jails. One also recalls the report of Gopal Singh committee of 1982 which also had found the poor status of this minority. Gopal Singh committee report kept lying in the deep freeze while the issues like Ram Temple kept hogging the national attention. To add up one can say this community`s representation as riot victim is way above its percentage in population. The committee has recommended that an Equal Opportunity Commission should be set up, a national data bank should be started, a nomination procedure should be started to ensure their participation in public bodies, in order to promote religious tolerance by a procedure to evaluate text books for appropriate social values, so on and so forth.
Whatever one could glean from the yet to be initiated policies being reflected in the statements of the government functionaries, it seems to be taking it a seriously. Steps are being contemplated, short of reservations to improve the lot of the Muslim minorities. It is a matter of conjuncture whether this Govt is really serious about it or is it a mere replay of the earlier broken promises during last several decades. During last several decades while Governments after Governments have been promising to look after the problems of Muslim minorities, nothing much came out. This includes not only the longest reign of Congress party but also of the one`s of formations in which BJP was an important component or supporter. Amongst multiple reasons of this neglect of this minority one was the aggressive propaganda of Hindu right that Government is out to `appease` the Muslims so that they can be used as vote banks. One does not know whether this aggressive anti minority propaganda did contribute to the policies of the government, but one can say for sure that this `appeasement of minorities` had become a part of `social common sense` in the face of the worsening situation of Muslims.
It is during last two decades that not only Muslim minority was battered through the post-Babri demolition violence and Gujarat carnage, it was during the same period that another big minority the Christians also started being attacked, especially in the remote Adivasi areas. Where do we go from here? Was the commissioning of Sachar an act of appeasement? Will the implementation of measures to alleviate their plight be communalism, as claimed by RSS combine?
India has inherited a negative legacy of partition. While the major part of the country was for democracy and secularism, the communalists, Muslim League and Hindu Mahsaba, RSS were for Islamic Nation and Hindu nation respectively. Their ideologies served the British `divide and rule` policy very well. With partition tragedy, the communal propaganda here went on getting sharper over a period of time, saying that Muslims have been responsible for partition, the subtle nuances and policies which led to partition were deliberately underplayed and put under the carpet. The role of elite of both communities in partition tragedy was put aside and the process to blame the whole Muslim community for this tragedy started, and this identity of Muslim minorities started becoming a negative one. This was in contrast to the dalits, who were also underprivileged but their identity came in as a positive one and the reservations, which came for them came to be accepted to some extent.
Even in their case the Hindu right and their followers did sabotage the whole reservation process in order to keep the status quo of Brahminmical system, in newer garb though. That`s how while the reservations were subtly sabotaged, the implementation of Mandal was countered by the Babri demolition, Mandal opposed by Kamadal. Essentially the RSS combine is against any affirmative action which can lead to social transformation towards substantive equality. In the case of Muslims, to demonize them is no big deal for this formation, RSS combine. The propaganda is simpler; `they` created Pakistan now through such measure for their uplift, foundation for another Pakistan is being laid down.
In democracy, the concept of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity (community) remains at a formal level unless one does proactive action to undo the inherent infirmities of sections of society. One notices this in most of the advanced democracies including the United States where serious proactive steps were initiated for the African Americans. The politics of right wing and more so right wing in the name of religion is against affirmative action. For them, democracy itself is not an acceptable concept. Today they pay lip service to democracy so that they can use it to subvert it, to bring in a Hindu nation based on refined values, social relations, from Manu Smriti. Democracy is neither their goal nor the cherished value system. They nurture the hope to have Hindu Rashttra and inherent hierarchies of caste and gender. And any affirmative action cannot be tolerated by them.
What is being called rank communalism is essentially a bit of affirmative action. Surely even the reservations, which were brought in for Dalits have improved their conditions slightly, so now a full fledged opposition to those polices in different language has been unleashed. While in the case of minorities not only the condition is bad as of today, the bigger worry is that it is sliding towards worse very rapidly. We need to distinguish abuse of community identity for politics and the bowing to the institution of religion from the concrete economic steps, social actions to support the weaker sections of society. Will the community identity become strong due to this? Will the community become crippled due to this?
If one notices amongst the dalits who have slightly benefited from reservations, their community identity has loosened up. It is a contradictory process, as such you bring a community to economic level the religious or caste identity becomes weaker and other identities start becoming stronger. When a community is so helpless due to political reasons, how can this affirmative action cripple them? As such a lack of such an action will cripple them forcing more of them to go in the aberrant way. Already a large section of youth from them is being targeted on any small pretext, the number of them in jails is appalling. Surly that`s what RSS combine wants and any hindrance to the measures meant to uplift them will worsen their condition.
To revoke Jinnah at this stage is deliberate. The idea is to frighten and polarize the upper castes/middle sections of society around the politics of Hindu right. While Jinnah played the card for Muslim elite, the current efforts, if at all they come through, are for the poorer sections of society, which in no way can be labeled as communalism. As such had there not been the fear of backlash of RSS combine, reservations for Muslims would be the ideal solution out of this impasse. In the present scenario all steps short of reservations should and need to be taken to work towards the democratic goal of equality.
For Publication/Translation/ Circulation
www.pluralindia.com
Leave A Comment
&
Share Your Insights
#73 Posted by harimau on May 24, 2007 5:42:11 pm
Ref kaalchakra #71
[Harimau
Please don`t tempt fate (and Chowkies). Someone might actually make the statement. It costs nothing.]
I was hoping our Resident Mullah tahmed32 would take the bait but you had to go and spoil the fun :-(
[Harimau
Please don`t tempt fate (and Chowkies). Someone might actually make the statement. It costs nothing.]
I was hoping our Resident Mullah tahmed32 would take the bait but you had to go and spoil the fun :-(
#72 Posted by KaalChakra on May 24, 2007 5:17:42 pm
LOL....OK, I will hold my peace; although, samar, I have no idea what you were hinting at :)
#71 Posted by KaalChakra on May 24, 2007 5:15:40 pm
Harimau
Please don`t tempt fate (and Chowkies). Someone might actually make the statement. It costs nothing.
Please don`t tempt fate (and Chowkies). Someone might actually make the statement. It costs nothing.
#70 Posted by samar1982 on May 24, 2007 5:14:18 pm
Re: # 66, Kal Sir,
This is not at all fair! For last 1000 posts Manto, Folio, Hari and even Shah sir are discussing ancient History in a sociology class and you have no word for them. And here I am trying to write a few English words correctly on sociology and you come telling me off!
Rest assured, for me Chowk is a forum to improve my English. Nothing more.
Sangeetaji,
Take it lightly. Kalchakra Saheb is my teacher of languages, so he was perturbed by my deviation towards sociology. Hope he will not disturb us till we die searching for answers to our country`s woes.
Samar
This is not at all fair! For last 1000 posts Manto, Folio, Hari and even Shah sir are discussing ancient History in a sociology class and you have no word for them. And here I am trying to write a few English words correctly on sociology and you come telling me off!
Rest assured, for me Chowk is a forum to improve my English. Nothing more.
Sangeetaji,
Take it lightly. Kalchakra Saheb is my teacher of languages, so he was perturbed by my deviation towards sociology. Hope he will not disturb us till we die searching for answers to our country`s woes.
Samar
#69 Posted by harimau on May 24, 2007 4:51:54 pm
Ref Sangeeta #46
[Hello Samar,
3. As for your term of ``pseudo-secularists``, please see the origin of the term before you employ it. It is associated with those who consider themselves to be the only ``true`` Hindus, that is the RSS, VHP and its like, who are against anyone who asks for tolerance and more openness rather than defending Muslims at the cost of Hindus. Similarly their equally reactionary Muslim counterparts use the term ``saffron brigade`` that demeans a particularly holy colour and gives legitimacy to these fake priests who do not represent Hindu values. This is politics of semantics and thinking citizens must not be caught in its virulent web.]
Yet you are the one caught in the politics of semantics and are asking people to look into the origin of the term ``pseudo-secularists``. Is truth the monopoly of the Leftists? Can`t people with a different ideology make observations that are truthful? Is truth and secularism to be defined only by the Gandhi-Nehru family and their hangers-on?
[I support Secularism in the sense of tolerance and respect for all faiths and I am guided by Humanism. This is what my religion has taught me.]
Thanks for the laugh. Because once again you are mouthing the crap from JNU.
PS. I am glad your name indicates you are a Hindu. All we need is a Muslim to make the above statement. That would be the joke of the century.
By the way, exactly what is your take on the Haj subsidy?
[Hello Samar,
3. As for your term of ``pseudo-secularists``, please see the origin of the term before you employ it. It is associated with those who consider themselves to be the only ``true`` Hindus, that is the RSS, VHP and its like, who are against anyone who asks for tolerance and more openness rather than defending Muslims at the cost of Hindus. Similarly their equally reactionary Muslim counterparts use the term ``saffron brigade`` that demeans a particularly holy colour and gives legitimacy to these fake priests who do not represent Hindu values. This is politics of semantics and thinking citizens must not be caught in its virulent web.]
Yet you are the one caught in the politics of semantics and are asking people to look into the origin of the term ``pseudo-secularists``. Is truth the monopoly of the Leftists? Can`t people with a different ideology make observations that are truthful? Is truth and secularism to be defined only by the Gandhi-Nehru family and their hangers-on?
[I support Secularism in the sense of tolerance and respect for all faiths and I am guided by Humanism. This is what my religion has taught me.]
Thanks for the laugh. Because once again you are mouthing the crap from JNU.
PS. I am glad your name indicates you are a Hindu. All we need is a Muslim to make the above statement. That would be the joke of the century.
By the way, exactly what is your take on the Haj subsidy?
#67 Posted by harimau on May 24, 2007 4:23:58 pm
Ref Mantolives #56
[Harimau,
So according to you Sarat Chanderbose, the brother of Subhas Chanderbose, the elected leader of Congress Party was not the democratic choice of Hindus of Bengal? Kiran Shankar Roy the second in command was not the democratic choice of the Hindus of Bengal... It was Jawaharlal Nehru alone who was the democratic choice of the Bengali Hindus.
You may hold on to any view... that is your prerogative.]
Yasser, did you take any courses in English comprehension at Rutgers?
Sarat Chander Bose was not elected even dogcatcher by the Bengali public at large in the Calcutta Municipal Corporation. He happened to be elected within a party. Jawaharlal Nehru alongside Jinnah had no standing in the politics of Bengal except what their stature conferred on them.
Suhrawardy as Chief Minister of Bengal and as a member of the Bengal Legislature had a vote... but just one.
Just as the Legislature of Sind voted for Pakistan, the Legislature of Bengal decided AGAINST Bangistan. They then voted for the division of the Province into two parts, one to go to India and the other to Pakistan.
I would think that the directly elected representatives of the PEOPLE of Bengal have a better to claim to represent the sentiments of the Bengali population than Nehru, Gandhi, Jinnah or a single member of the Legislature such as Suhrawardy.
The other option would have been to go directly to the people for a referendum on the issue. Bengal followed the Sind precedent of taking a vote in the Legislature to ascertain the wishes of the people. And Bengal has had representative democracy far longer than Sind.
On the other hand, when Jinnah knew such a vote would have given NWFP to India, he went the referendum route along with the slogan ``Pakistan ki matlab kya``.
[Harimau,
So according to you Sarat Chanderbose, the brother of Subhas Chanderbose, the elected leader of Congress Party was not the democratic choice of Hindus of Bengal? Kiran Shankar Roy the second in command was not the democratic choice of the Hindus of Bengal... It was Jawaharlal Nehru alone who was the democratic choice of the Bengali Hindus.
You may hold on to any view... that is your prerogative.]
Yasser, did you take any courses in English comprehension at Rutgers?
Sarat Chander Bose was not elected even dogcatcher by the Bengali public at large in the Calcutta Municipal Corporation. He happened to be elected within a party. Jawaharlal Nehru alongside Jinnah had no standing in the politics of Bengal except what their stature conferred on them.
Suhrawardy as Chief Minister of Bengal and as a member of the Bengal Legislature had a vote... but just one.
Just as the Legislature of Sind voted for Pakistan, the Legislature of Bengal decided AGAINST Bangistan. They then voted for the division of the Province into two parts, one to go to India and the other to Pakistan.
I would think that the directly elected representatives of the PEOPLE of Bengal have a better to claim to represent the sentiments of the Bengali population than Nehru, Gandhi, Jinnah or a single member of the Legislature such as Suhrawardy.
The other option would have been to go directly to the people for a referendum on the issue. Bengal followed the Sind precedent of taking a vote in the Legislature to ascertain the wishes of the people. And Bengal has had representative democracy far longer than Sind.
On the other hand, when Jinnah knew such a vote would have given NWFP to India, he went the referendum route along with the slogan ``Pakistan ki matlab kya``.
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