Secularism, Positive Communalism and the Pluralist State

Harimau,

I have already responded to the lies by Indians on the issue of direct action day on several boards.

Here is a discussion which I had with Folio`s earlier Avtar VRV... on the issue... you are welcomed to take it up there:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007141&channel=university%20ave

I will be happy to see you challenge the points there or any where.

#77 $ 78

I never said any body should be given resevation just b/c of Caste or Religion ..

if i used the term it meant economic And Educational backwardness...

Yasser, u have another chance to mock at me.

Pl read this one as:

What I said pale b4 what u said abt Gandhi, Nehru & our fellow Chowk interactor Sadna.

Dear Majumdar,

>>...Had MAJ been a Hindu, he would have been a wonderful leader of Hindu majority but secular India. <<<

A very imaginative point but alas, his dad became an Ismaeli and his siblings are now living in Ratnagiri, I think. Only Jinnah in his family had this streak of daring nature, though he became demented & devlish fox at senile old age.

Unlike Manto, I see both - & + points of Jinnah`s persona.

---

Dear Yasser,

Do u think what u quoted of Gandhi is of any virulence? None at all!

We have two types of Hindus 1. Gandhi 2. Godse & Savarker types. I think u like Savarker types. I still remeber HP addressing Sanatani in brotherly terms. I am not surprised!

As 4 me abusing u, there are no personal abuses here. I am just pushing the limits of banter. What I said pale b4 what u said abt Gandhi and Nehru Chown interactor Sadna. Ppl living in galss houses shud not throw stones, thus go a proverb.

As for a Parsi not becoming the Chief Minister, the focal point of ur argument is that there are imperfections in INC`s conduct but exceptions are exceptions. Isnt it? INC is not a communal party but Muslim League was.

# Folio ..``You forgot the continuity Rule``

I agree with you for practical purpose pakistan could not be islands as demonstrated by B Desh more recently


#76 by kaalchakra on May 24, 2007 8:11pm PT
And why on earth is a good man like you turning himself into a terrorist and is driving away from India? :(

Why do you conjecture that i am driving against Insia ....I have sacrificed for India and My motives are for keeping India thriving united And United ...I may not be terorist like The Maoist Naxal or other discontent Dalits but i am just giving a voice to indian muslim voice for which every one of are biased against .. You all are more fiendly to Pakistani muslims thanthere counter part in India ..Why ?
There are all the cases for Indian muslims s ther for Dalis B/C even on the basis of Economic reason they will qualify more than other majority and some Salits barring some ddiscedents of sultannaabs and elite whom you brefiend and make tool of represnting poor likedalis majority avr joe muslims in the indian street

I agee with you that rich Dait And Anybody should not be given hand out or resevation but India has not developed for its own incapbility to do so just ask the poor dalit

Sorry to have not replied to all your charges for the article has been pushed into back pages fearing non interst in discussion of it any more

HP sain,

I believe Christians were quite well represented in PAF at one point of time, right? But lately there ain`t too many non Muslims even in the PAF, if I am not mistaken.

Just for my interest, wouldn`t the Sindhis/Baloch being inhabitants of coastal provinces be there in good numbers in the Navy.

(but the Sindhi middle class still has enough money for them from Sindhi lands that they eschew the army service. )

R U suggesting that the Sindhi middle class is largely subsisting on land revenues and avoiding ALL kinds of professions/trades/businesses or just avoiding armed forces. It would be surprising if Sindhis are not well represented in professions/business etc. given how successful and well-established Sindhis in India are in most professions as well as businesses.

Regards

#98 by majumdar

Dada, I don`t want to get in this debate but there were many non muslims in pakistan air force Who got to some high ranks including air marshal.

Now you got look at this in a different way. Most of the Hindu in Pakistan are Sindhis and Sindhis in general, hindu or muslim, are not inclined to joined the army or the air force. There was only one Sindhi Air Marshal in the PAF, some Daudpota. People go to the army and Air force etc. when they need jobs badly. Some Sindhis have now started to join the army but the Sindhi middle class still has enough money for them from Sindhi lands that they eschew the army service.

Ref Mantolives #80

[Little knowledge is always dangerous... but when combined with stupidity ... it is deadly.]

Are you talking about yourself?

[The only reason why ``Bengal legislators`` voted was because Sarat and Kiran Shankar Roy were forced by Nehru to adopt the all India party line.]

After ``Direct Action Day``, there was no need for anyone to believe that any State carved out by Jinnah was going to be secular with justice for all. Ane certainly not Bangistan.

Nobody, least of all Nehru, needed to force the Bengal legislator`s hands. All the Muslim legislators voted for Pakistan and all the Hindus voted for India. It is as simple as that.

Folio/Manto mian,

(Have u ever had a non-Muslim in any consitutional position in Jinnah`s Pakistan. )

The only constitutional post in Pakistan is that of the CoAS. I would be really curious to know as to how many non- Muslim (excluding Brits) have been Maj Gen/Air Marshall/Rear Admiral onwards in the Armed Forces.

(Sadly Jinnah`s Pakistan died with him )

Sad, but true. The problem was that in 1947-48, MAJ(pbuh) was far ahead of the times as far as the sub-continent`s Muslims were concerned. Had MAJ been a Hindu, he would have been a wonderful leader of Hindu majority but secular India.

Regards

Regards

``finer points``

Ah.. you mean like the finer point from Gandhiji`s ideology:

``I am a Hindu first- therefore I am a true Indian``

Yes... despite all of Pakistan`s flaws (and there are numerous which bother me) ``communal animals`` like me cannot understand such fine points from Gandhiji...

Re: # 92

Still resorting to personal attacks... I see. Why don`t you curb your verbal violence?

Sadly Jinnah`s Pakistan died with him (and his law minister a Hindu was driven out and his Ahmadi followers ultimately became the target of revenge) ... and that is what I have been harping about...

However ... the Islamic Republic of Pakistan still had a Christian Justice Cornelius as Pakistan`s Supreme Court Chief Justice (and its most respected Justice to date)... and Pakistan`s Supreme Court Chief Justice for the last 2 months is a Hindu.... Rana Bhagwandas. And mind you this is not a secular Pakistan but the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

>>It can happen in any state where a person is preferred over the other.<<

Ha ha, NOT 4 communal reasons but 4 other reasons. For communal animals in Pakistan these finer points can never be understood.

Yasser,

Dont get into the `theory` of secular states. Pakistan becoming one wud be thinkable only when the sun started rising in the west. Period.

Have a Nice Day. CU later.

Re: # 90

Good.

All I am saying is that be honest and admit it that this was Congress` idea which you have but others here don`t.

Yasser,

It`s a typo, man.

This crap was posted by u b4 and I gave a reply then. It can happen in any state where a person is preferred over the other. Maharastra had a Muslim Chief Minister in the past whose name is Abdul Rehman Antuley, so much 4 the `communal` Congress.

Now we have Dr. Singh as our PM, a Christian CM Dr. YSR Reddy for AP, so much 4 the commnal Congress! This list is illustrative not exhaustive.

Have u ever had a non-Muslim in any consitutional position in Jinnah`s `secular` Pakistan.

``Secular country with 98% Muslim``

Even though this is unrelated to what I am arguing for, I`ll you in your place nonetheless.

When Europe went secular .... most of its secular nation states were homogenously Christian .... and were either Protestant or Catholic... Had you read the article above you would know the difference between a Secular nation state and a secular plural state... a concept which you fail to apply again and again.

Similarly Secular Turkey is 99.6% Muslim as opposed to Islamic Ottoman Empire which was at most 55% Muslim.

In any event the official 98% figure is bitterly contested by Pakistani minorities and for good reason too... Pakistani Christian leaders claim a population of 18-20 million or so.... even if we take half of this... it takes the over all Minorities` population close to 10%.