Secularism, Positive Communalism and the Pluralist State

The author writes [In India, secularism implies a sense of tolerance and accommodation embodied in the concept of ``sarva dharma sambhava``. Here the state metes out equal treatment to all religions and embraces and supports all religions.]

Do you HAVE to display your ignorance this blatantly? Can you not just attend meetings of Congesswallahs, Communists, Socialists and other psedo-secularists and spare us this crap?

Exactly what is the equal treatment meted out to all religions in India? Do I get a discount/subsidy on expenses associated with a trip to Mansarovar like Muslims get with a trip to Mecca?

Why is it that institutions of professional education in engineering and medicine owned by religious minorities do not have a 50% government quota whereas if they are owned by a Hindu -- not even a Hindu religious establishment but the owner happens to be a Hindu -- has to give up 50% of the seats for the government top do what it wants?

Why is it that the Ramakrishna Mission had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get certified as a minority non-Hindu organization?

Is there absolutely no limit to the idiocy of Indians who write for Chowk? Or, is it a pre-requisite?

Re: # 1, Harimau,

`Do you HAVE to display your ignorance this blatantly? Can you not just attend meetings of Congesswallahs, Communists, Socialists and other psedo-secularists and spare us this crap?`

Generally I don`t feel comfortable with your views but here I agree with you. I write this to suggest a better term for all these so called secularists. Don`t you think pseudo-secularist is old fashioned? What about secular communalists or communal secularists in line with Hindoo or Muslim communalists?

Samar

``but here I agree with you``Samar the deceptive of course you would being chip of the same block or Hybrid of Harimou...

As to the susidy of Pilgrimage to certain community is in the financial interes t of Indian Airlines and political reasons rather than help full religously or any need for it ...there is no such demand for it but like dalits need for special quaota in the the army and the police to make them inclusive


The notion of majority does not need any introduction or explanation, since it is more or less a self-evident fact, whatever be the measures we adopt in defining it. On the other hand, the notion of minority needs to be defined in every new context due to its multidimensionality. The Oxford Dictionary defines minority as ``the condition or fact of being smaller, inferior, or subordinate; smaller number or part; a number which is less than half the whole number. Similarly, relation is ``an existing connection, ... a significant association between or among things.``

First of all, it is the number count, or the statistical divide between two or more entities under consideration, resulting in majority/minority division. The minor, since it is numerically less, is perceived to be week and has to be empowered separately through special measures to make it equal to the majority. In this power relation, the minor is supposed to be subordinate to the major

Dear Sangeeta,

This is a wonderfully written piece which specifically addresses concerns of societies in the East... the concept of a secular nation state is qualitatively different from the concept of secularism in a pluralist state... especially a state which maybe plural before it is secular and that is a very important distinction to make...

Please visit my article and the discussion on it ``Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan``.

Sincerely,

Yasser Latif Hamdani

Dear Yasser Hamdani,

Thank you.

Identity theorists often speak of contending identities of a society characterized by multiplicities and that the predominant identity is often shaped by situation. But I do not concur with it as some markers of identity like language and religion have a greater and a more sustaining hold on the people.

Yes, I agree ( appropos `Citizenship and Identity in Pakistan` ) that only when a composite society accepts a notion of inclusiveness that transcends differences can it truly aspire to be a secular State rather than it being force-fed. But ``Secular Nation-State`` is a mega-narrative that fails the emperical test.

People have the right to their differences and these are bound to come in conflict with other differences. How does a country of many “nations” remain cohesive? Secularism is not only a choice for India; it is an absolutely vital requisite for her continuance. The State that wants to be secular, on its part, cannot wish away differences and amalgamate every denomination. It should neither appease nor discriminate. Our constitution was clear on this end. But in practice the state is still learning to walk the tight-rope.

Coming to the constituent level, a society that knows this condition of its survival within the territorial-state will, by its own logic, accept secularism. More than anything, it is the freedom of expressing difference, or as some have pointed out, even dislike of other groups while knowing that the other group can do the same without each fearing for its life or livelihood as a consequence of this freedom, is the true pointer to a communal (many communities) society being ready for its secular, and most importantly, tolerant state.


Regards,
SM.

#4 Manto
what form secularism would Pakistan Fall in ????????among the following


``In India, secularism implies a sense of tolerance and accommodation embodied in the concept of ``sarva dharma sambhava``. Here the state metes out equal treatment to all religions and embraces and supports all religions. The French laicite or the Turkish laiklik on the other hand, follows the separation theory to the letter and does not favour or support all or any one religion.

In the USA, as Sandel points out, the US Supreme Court, in 1947, upheld secular neutralism. The justification was that it would protect the church and the state and allow for the individual`s right to choose.``

Haramimau,

Why do you find the concept of ``equal treatment`` so repulsive? It is OK if you ``Skewer`` the lower castes. It is OK when intelligent educated decent people fine are forced to ``stand one respectful foot away`` when you walk around the streets of Chennai in your undergarments.

The above is just fine with you.

But the slightest hint of any help to muslims, and you go ballistic.......

WHY??? Haramimau..... WHY?????



Let me remind you of your own words in an earlier post...

<<< Harimau skewers the lower castes like you guys might skewer meat for sheesh-kebabs.

Harimau walks tall, knowing full well that just by birth alone he is superior to 95% of Indians and 100% of non-Indians. That kind of self-confidence is not easy to come by.

Harimau pities mlecchas like you who have the misfortune to be born into a strange cult and who can have no exit strategy short of death. In fact, he pities mlecchas more than he pities the lower castes who at least have reservations going for them.

When I go to a roadside temple near my home for a special puja, I deliberately wear a dhoti but no upper garments. You should see what happens: the sight of the sacred thread around my torso parts the crowd who stand a respectful foot away from me so that I won`t be defiled by their touch. This in the city of Chennai after 75 years of anti-Brahmin propaganda. Hey, I like that.

The Communist minister Chakraborty in West Bengal, defending his attendance at a religious ceremony, said that he is seen as a brahmin first, a Bengali next and a Communist last.

Nope, we don`t squirm. We walk with our heads held high. Squirming is for low-lifes, such as worms on a hook. >>>


So dear Haramimau, you stand exposed for what you actually are.... a great murfking hypocrite... and you have no business casting stones..... actually you have no business even existing..... the world would be better off without you..... and the Dalits/ Sc/ST/OBC/ Muslims/ Non Brahmans would rejoice.....

I agree with Yasser 4 the first time.

Thought provoking and original piece of writing.

---

Communalism is a bad word in India but a +ve word outside India!

While going to my class 4 the first time in PolyU in Hong Kong, I heard the student union chap telling me to go to the building that comes after the COMMUNAL building. It`s surprising but walked past the communal building to reach my class room.

As always the majority opinion pave the way for the meaning of some words. It`s a reality in India that `communal` became a bad word.

As for secularim I have a diffeernt take.

#8

``by Folio on May 21, 2007 9:38am PT
I agree with Yasser 4 the first time.

Thought provoking and original piece of writing.
Comunalism outside india is o.k And within India is a Bad word``

Comunalism is when used for the purpose of Hegonomy but when it is in the context of MINORITY and weaker section
as the first pat of the article terms
``POSTIVE ``commulism for subordinatates is Not communalism

Re: # 3, tolkinin,

I have expressed my agreement to harimau only about the real character of these pseudo-secularist whom I rather call secular communalists (SC). My reasons for this nomenclature are as follows:

1) They have never supported the larger interest of any community. They will always align with the vested interests (maulanas and other reactionary elements) to appear secular when they have to choose between them and the ordinary citizens (victims).

2) They always resort to tokenism for their political interests. When Rajiv thought that it would gain him Hindoo votes he allowed Puja in Babri Masjid and when Adwani wanted to woo Muslims he showered praise on Jinnah. Both broke their limbs on the hard surface of reality. (by the way the subsidy on Huj is just a tokenism.)

3) Thes SCs despise orange robes and make all the noises against most secular non political gurus just to assert their secular (?) credentials. Anyone with logic can make out their real motives and dub them communal (i.e. secular communal). They shamelessly seek support of green parties to come to power. Equally shamelessly they sponsor Durga Puja if it fits them well.

These invisible foe is more dangerous then the one who attacks openly.

Samar

tolkinin
(The French laicite or the Turkish laiklik on the other hand, follows the separation theory to the letter and does not favour or support all or any one religion. )

the french are hypocrites, you want to visit paris at christmas times you will find most of the public buildings with decorations and lights paid for by the french government, there are many other examples, christmas and easter paid holidays.

Ref tolkinin #3

[As to the susidy of Pilgrimage to certain community is in the financial interes t of Indian Airlines and political reasons rather than help full religously or any need for it ..]

Since the airlines owned by the Government of India do not have enough planes, most Haj pilgrims travel on Saudi Arabian Airlines. It is certainly not in the interests of the Indian nation to pay money to an airline owned by a country which exports a virulent form of religion and provided the vast majority of the 9/11 airline hijackers, when most of the visitors to and workers in Saudi Arabia come back with the Wahabi virus implanted in their brains.

[....there is no such demand for it ...]

There is a great big frikking demand for Haj subsidy. There is a Haj Committee which selects people for the Indian quota on pilgrims and they exercise control over the Muslims. There are politicians, Muslim of course and Congresswallahs of the Arjun Singh variety, Communists and Socialists, who are for the subsidy. Last year, when the issue of the Haj subsidy was taken to the Supreme Court, the Government of India pleaded that it was too late since India was obligated to fill the Indian quota and the quota must be filled for India to continue to get certain number of visas for the Haj in the future. So the issue got postponed to this year and the Government of India is happily working on providing the Haj subsidy expecting that the litigant who filed the case last year would have died or forgotten the issue or doesn`t have money to pursue it in the court.

Money is power. Rs. 1.5 billion in the form of Haj subsidy is a lot of power for a lot of people. Yup, there is a great big demand for the Haj subsidy.

By the way, there was no subsidy for the Haj before 1972. Why? Did the Government of India suddenly wake up and realize that not subsidizing the Haj was anti-secular?

What next, subsidy for Catholics to go to Rome?

PS. Does Pakistan subsidize its citizens to go to Mecca? Does Iran? Do Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia?

“On the external front there is tension. As things stand, our relations with the US are not getting any better. The President is angry, and some say rightly so, over the constant needling over not doing enough in the fight against terror.”

I can answer this in one sentence: When Pakistan will begin doing enough in the war against the terra, the war which is supposed to last for decades (read Bushy and Cheney various statements) would end right away.

Since you don’t appear to be bright enough to catch this in one sentence, I would add another: Pakistan is doing just enough to keep the war against terra going, ensuring that first, it should last for decades and if not, then at least till 20th January 2009.

Let me explain it even more so that you stop writing articles like this for good.

There are three centers of terra in the world: Iraq, Afghanistan and northern areas of Pakistan. Do you expect any US think tank or the US congress or the US administration to say that the US is not doing enough in the war against terra? For crying out loud, they got US army, NATO Army and a host of other White armies working hard to eliminate terra in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now who is left to point fingers at: A non White country and a non white Army which obviously can never do enough because first, it is not white thus making it inferior and second, it is the only Non white army involved in the war against terra so it will never do enough no mater how hard it tries. The inferior genes of the non Whites in the world preclude them for doing things right until the Whiteman supervises, teaches and goads them to do the right thing.

This sound like a harsh statement but the point remains until Pakistan start killing people like the US army is doing in Iraq or even in Afghanistan some idiots in think tanks in the US would continue to say that Pakistan is not doing enough. That is how they maintain and keep the war on Terra going.

Has it ever occurred to that Mush and the Pakistan army are perhaps doing what they are asked do, nothing more and nothing less, to maintain the war against terra and are being rewarded for their complicity in heinous crimes against Pakistan.

Now, they have another horse or ghorRi ready to help Mush out and present another liberal face of Pakistan politics to start doing enough in the war against terra for couple of years and then new ghorRi or Ghadi and whatever you call her will again be discarded for not doing enough in the war against Terra. What a charade!

Poor Pakistan will continue to pay a price and continue to deal with haramkhor maulvi and his minions until the war on terra ends in decades.

Ref okhla99 #7

You are completely brain dead.

I am asking the Indian state to ignore every aspect of a person`s make-up other than merit when it comes to admission to colleges, jobs, etc.

If the best qualified person for the job happens to be a Muslim, Dalit, SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC, man, woman or hermaphrodite, I would have absolutely no problem with that person getting into medical college, treating me when I need medical intervention, running the Indian army or having his finger on the nuclear button.

What I object to is the complete bullcrap about victimization over centuries when there is proof that every single community victimized a less powerful community. If victimization is the reason for special treatment, then in Tamil Nadu, 90% of the villages never had a substantial brahmin presence and the victimization of the Dalits was entirely by those who now claim to be MBC and OBC. Yet the 69% reservation includes these same victimizers.

As to Indian Muslims, are you going to tell me that they were peace-loving people who practiced secularism when they were in power? But the minute they are no longer in power, they are screaming not for equal treatment -- even which they don`t deserve -- but for special privileges.

All of you who believe that Muslims/Christians/SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC/Dalits cannot compete on an equal footing with upper-caste folks are the true casteists. In their presence, I shall ensure that they maintain a respectful distance from me and not sully me by their touch.

PS. You are completely brain dead.

Chowk editors,

Interact #13 is not mine nor does it belong on this board.

I hope your programmers do not get jobs working for banks. Posting withdrawals and deposits to wrong accounts would cause an accounting nightmare.

Sangeetha,

I notice you are lurking around on this board.

Instead of replying to that fraud Yasser Latif Hamdani, why don`t you respond to my interact; you know, the very first one, #1 on this board?

No, I have no intention of forming a mutual admiration society with you.