What Next After Karachi’s Carnage?

Re: # 1023

I am doing the same thing as I suggest others to do? And how many articles have
you read by me lamenting the state of Pak society, berating the mullah, lambasting
the HEC, etc.?

#1922 viqram sahib
Why don`t you go ahead and suggest some problem solving strategy? You are exactly doing the samething as you are suggesting others to do....

Why don`t you be the first one to chalk out our weak points and their solutions?....

Thanks

OK, let us say the law enforcement personnel surround Lal Masjid. No one is let in, or out. Utilities (electricity, water, gas) are all disconnected.

As the situation becomes desperate, some cohorts of the LM brigade somewhere respond with a suicide bombing.

What should be done next?

Should the commandos be sent in?

How should the fallout (reaction of irate families of the burqa clad regiment, and their supporters) in Punjab and NWFP be handled?

Should the army be sent in?

Would the army be willing to deploy and fight to put down the insurrection? What if it
refuses, imposes martial law, and a new military government takes over?

Would the good professor along with his hordes of secular enlightened brigade be
willing to pick up Kalashnikovs and give a battle?

I am a dumb old engineer who would like to see the A-Z of a proposed solution by
the good professor, or his supporters, to this deplorable situation (which now seems to
be spreading to the urban centers). Simply complaining, whining, name calling doesn`t
do a damn thing.

All kinds of experts, extremists, secularists, pecularists, male, female (with or without
burqa) are encouraged to take a shot.

Ready, steady g....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Zeemax - I simply do not have any desire to read sanctimonious ramblings by a narrowminded extremist. The article was quoted in a certain context. And I ain`t wasting my time to make you comprehend something that you are not cut out to grasp. To each his own.

By the way, it`s in poor taste to use your aunty`s name to add spice to your bland posts. Be a man!!!

Try changing your communication style and approach and you may have better luck with your relationships and attitude.

Good luck :)

#1018 by zeemax on May 28, 2007 8:19am PT


Unfortunately it isn`t a pizza. It only comes with one set of toppings.


Islam is a pepperoni pizza...


yum...

#969 by ZahraJ,

Thanks for the article. For this time only I won`t call you aunty shamim nor refer you to Dr. Matlock`s clinic because I feel like being a nice guy today. However, I`ll still call you plain stupid.

The article you reproduce says:

To bring an end to Islamophobia, we must employ a holistic approach that treats the core of the disease. It will not suffice to merely suppress the symptoms. It is imperative to adopt new Islamic teachings

First, it is only some of the economic migrants in Western societies who are scared of Islamophobia. People in such category are a miniscule fraction of the Muslims who live in Islamic countries, and the latter don`t give a damn about Islamophobia as it doesn`t affect their circumstances or future in any major way, only that of the economic migrants.

Secondly, there are two ways to counter the Islamophobic societal pressure for the migrants. One is to hold one`s head high and assert one`s Muslimness (as most do in Europe), and the other is to be apologetic and say Islam is wrong from the outset and a `disease` and needs to be changed (as a few in USA etc may do). But in that case, for the people in this situation, why have Islam at all to completely deflect Islamophobia? Why, instead, insist on changing Islam for everyone who think it is fine as it is?

The problem is, everyone wants to remain with the mainstream Muslim identity, while condemn it at the same time. I have never understood why that is. After all they don`t kill apostates in USA or even Europe. What`re they afraid of?

Secondly, Islam is not available a`la carte. If it was a pizza, you could keep the benign crust (which are the rituals) and pick and choose your favourite toppings from amongst the ones available (which are all its other elements), or invent your own toppings, to be adopted as deemed politically correct at any given time and place.

Unfortunately it isn`t a pizza. It only comes with one set of toppings. Any attempt to redefine Islam is defeated sooner or later, regardless of how strong the forces advocating the same.

If you want to make a new Islam, be my guest. But then don`t call it Islam nor call yourself a Muslim. Call it EnlightenedIsm or something like that.

However before doing that, remember many other people much bigger than you or the author of this article have tried over the centuries and failed. If Akbar the Great with his Din-e Ilahi based on contemporary reason and ethical teachings common to all religions failed in his own empire, as did the great Mamoon-Ur-Rashid with his highly cerebral Mut`azili version, I don`t see how you or anyone else will succeed in doing the same.

Re: # 1010, Dear ZahraJ,

This is not fair on your part to decline sis Zeena`s invitation. Particularly when she has offered to pay the bill and has allowed `you to settle down your score with a... LOL`. Better enough, her fellow-cypher has refused to save her from this one way show of strength. Give a second thought and grab the offer.

Samar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I am offering an official truce with my sista(ZahraJ) on this board for good.

Please, notice....

Zahra(sista)

We can also invite hoodboy and discuss this life and death issue over the table.....

May be all four of us can settle down the current crisis in pakistan.....
Anyway, I seriously wish to tell you...I have nothing against you....

If, you wish to be my friend,you are most welcome....If, you wish to be my enemy, you are most welcome.....

Whatever you wish to do...just tell me..I`ll be waiting for your decision..

#1011 philosopher

You`ll have your pop corns and enjoy wrestling between Zahra and me.....hahah

ZahraJ(sweet sista)

I told you to leave me alone..You did not.

Now, that I offered you a truce from the core of my heart....you declined.....

Yes, I know you and I are not like minded,but, then hey, we both can sort out a middle way..means let`s settle down in molly pitcher along with philosopher , how can I please you, my sweet sista?

I honestly wish to meet you now.....

Don`t worry about my family...My family won`t mind me meeting with a sista....

Alright, from now on I call you my sista....I will always respect your presence, I will always agree to disagree or agree to agree with you......

I apologize,if, I cause you any emotional or mental anguish.....I really do.....

Re: # 1009zeena

what would i get from it? i mean if you gals are like ``woman to woman``what would i be doing there?

ZeenaTania - Thank you for your kind invite, but I will have to decline the offer. As I had alluded earlier, we are not on the same wavelength so I would rather have us go our own ways. That should not stop you from enjoying a nice meal with your family. I am sure they`ll be happy to have you 100% with them.

Take Care

#1006 philosopher jii
Honestly, that would be fun....

You, me and Sista(ZahraJ) meeting for a lunch/dinner.....

I just wish to see,if, my sweet sista(zahraJ) can abuse me the same face to face or not.......

#1006 philosopher sahib

c`mon yaar, you too, can join us for lunch/dinner.
I called ZahraJ my sista.....

We are not lesbians....Just get a life, you.....LOL

ZahraJ sahiba

Now that I seriously offered you a truce and a lunch/dinner....where are you now?

Hiding? LOL

Paper tigress is hiding now.....

Re: # 1003

[You know like a woman to woman..............LOL]

---

ooopppsss,the board is getting really hot.LoL

The board is almost on`` Fire``

Cast: shamim azmi. zeeniana das.

Producer: Chowk volunteers.

Direction: `Opposite of seeratul mustaqeem.

What Next After Karachi’s Carnage?

Next is ZahraJ(My sweet friend) meeting me for a dinner.....LOL

Next ZahraJ( My sweet sista) meeting me for uninterrupted personal abuse for hours.....LOL
Do you wish to go to Red Bank(Molly pitcher), my favourite restaurant?

Zahraj sahiba
C`mon, I am ready to meet you....anywhere anytime....

You can settle down your score...I swear I`ll let you abuse me for hours on my face non interrupted......LOL

Not only that I will pay for your lunch/dinner or whatever?

ZahraJ sahiba
Do you wish to meet me?
As I can see you are unable to leave me alone.....

You know like a woman to woman..............LOL

Listen, what, if, you find out I am a man? what will you do?....hahaha

zahraJ sahiba
I am not tania....stop calling me tania again and again....

And I am not genius....why are you changing your mind and statement?

Make up your mind...first you called me retard...I admit that I am.....now you`re calling me genius.....which I am not.

Anyway, I understand it is hard for you to leave me alone.....
Where do you live? Do you wish to meet with me face to face? So, that you can abuse me on my face.....and give me a good reason to laugh..............LOL

ZeenaTania - Congrats for taking this board to 1000 posts. You are a genius!

ZahraJ sahiba

Go spend this time with your like minded people. We both are very different people.
I am a very backward village woman with nothing to look forward for. I spend 24/7 on chowk b/c I have no life.....I am schizophrenic urdu speaking retard, I am mullah from Pakistan......I am every worst thing possible......So, best bet for you is to leave me alone.....

ZahraJ sahiba

Why it is so hard for you to understand this simple english?.....

LEAVE ME ALONE, LADY...........I AM NOT INTERESTED.........

ZahraJ sahiba

No matter what personal abuse you post for me, no matter even , if, you choke my voice........

I will always have my own view on any article that I wish to......I will always stand firm on my grounds with my own views for the particular article......

I will never ever resort to personal abuse....like you do...

#996 - I am glad my posts could be a source of humor. I also found yours in the same category. Glad that we are both approaching the siratae` mustaqeem :)

ZahraJ sahiba

Keep on cyber harrassing me...........and insulting me....I will not ask chowk staff to ban you....

B/c I want everyone to see how much more low can you stoop to?

Honestly, You have just lost all senses...and I feel for your mental state of mind....

Get hold of yourself sista. Afterall this is just an internet....try not to revolve your whole life around me...........Just a humble suggestion.....

Now, come with more personal attacks....LOL

Something new, this time....Hilarious..I find you hilarious now......

Last but not least, ZeenaTania, please make sure you extend the same courtesy to others that you ask of them. And stop cyber harrassing and posting disparaging remarks towards others personal leanings and religion who consider the Lal Masjid miscreants a curse of God.

Thank you!

ZahraJ sahiba #990 and all abusive posts....

Why does it matter to you who I am? I am Razia/Nadia/Shazia/Tania/Sobia/farzana/Samina/parvenn or naseern......blah,blah

Does it matter? You have completely lost it, my stranger sista
Your posts do not make any sense at all.

Anyway, you are showing your shallowness and ofcourse high class for abusing me with personal insults/personal attacks for having my own opinions about different articles on front page......just think about it....

And those who resort to personal abuse and personal attacks on those who disagree with them just show their brought ups and their back grounds..........

Those who resort to personal abuse/insults for others for having their own different views are just weak personalities...and you have provided me with this proof over and over again.....How low you can stoop to?

And sweet sista...
It is absolutely not your fault, it is the way your genetic makeup is....

You have had been attacking my personal life non stop in each and every board and trying your best to give me the vilest abuse possible........

You rather than discussing the actual topic @ hand and your own personal views on the current topics......always come and start personal attacks on me for holding my own views.........? Why?

I wish I could figure out why?

And this is called cyber harrassement........Just bibi

Get a life and focus on your friends.....

I only feel sympathy for you for personally insulting me , rather than discussing topic @ hand and your own views......

Nothing more to say....I am done with you....

May God(Almighty) bless you and teach you some right manners....

Anyway, let me remind you again...Alright I am schizophrenic....I am the worst person on chowk, I am low class, I am retarded, I am a liar.....Happy....

What`s the point of coming again and again and hurling abuse for me?

Bibi
Even,if, you try your best and abuse me 24/7(which you have had been doing), I will never ever lose control and I will never stoop to low level.....you know why?B/c I am from a very low class family......case closed.

All the best.

What`s next after Karachi carnage?

My dear writer

Well, to tell you the truth.....people of Pakistan will throw Musharaf away and musharaf`s name won`t be find any where................let`s wait and see....

Time will decide.....

But, humiliating these innocent burqa clads for having different views and for practicing their own religious beliefs is just absurd.....

That makes you a fascist fundamentalist and extremist............Just think about it.

ZeenaTania -

I am really disappointed to read the following by you.

[I do not have any husband.]

I am sure he would not be happy to read this. Very sad.

---

Islamic Laws Regarding Rights & Obligations of Husband & Wife

Islam has put great stress on the relationship of husband and wife. It has clearly laid down the respective rights and obligations to avoid confusion and complication in this regard.

The basis of husband-wife relationship is love and compassion. In this regard the Quran states:

``And among His signs is this that He has created mates from among yourselves, that you may live in comfort with them, and he has put love and compassion among you (husband and wife). Surely in that are signs for those who think`` (30 : 21).

The role of husband normatively revolves round the principle that it is his solemn duty to Allah to treat his wife with kindness, honour and patience, to keep her honourably or free her from marital bond honourably, and to cause her no harm or grief (Qur’an, 2 : 229-32 and 4 :19). The wife’s position has been explained in the Qur’an by saying that : -

``Women have similar rights over men as men have over women`` (2 : 228).

The husband in Islamic law is under obligation to maintain her wife. Maintenance includes the wife’s right to lodging, clothing, nourishing, care and well being. The wife has a right to enjoy all these things according to her status and according to capacity of her husband.

The wife, however; loses her right of maintenance, according to the unanimous opinion of the Muslim jurists, in case of Nushuz, that is her hatred or defiance of husband or her attraction to another person.

In case of husband’s recalcitrance to maintain wife, the law enforcement agencies are required to enforce maintenance. The majority of Muslim jurists also allow the wife the right to seek divorce in such a case. If she wishes so, the court must comply with her request and grant her the divorce.

The wife has also the right to receive dower from the husband at the time or in consequence of marriage. The dower is a gift of husband to his wife. This symbolises an assurance of economic security from the husband towards wife. The amount can be big or small depending on mutual agreement and economic condition of the two parties. This is, however; no price of sexual enjoyment. This can not be so because sexual enjoyment is not a one-sided affair. (Ref: The Family Structure in Islam, Chapter 3, by Hammudah Abdul Ati, American Trust Publications).

The main obligation of the wife as a partner in a marital relationship is to contribute to the success and blissfulness of the marriage as much as possible. She should be attentive to the comfort and well being of her mate. The Quran mentions good wife as ``comfort of eyes`` (25 : 74).

The husband has been stated by scholars as the head of the family in Islamic family system ( infact, Qur’an itself has declared him Qayyim, which stands for manager, unit head, provider and protecter). It is the duty of all family members to obey him in lawful matters. However; Islam has enjoined on all Muslims to manage their affairs (which includes family affairs) by mutual consultation. However; in case of disagreement, the head of the family should be obeyed.

Husband alone has the right of sexual intimacy with wife. The wife must not allow any other person to have access to that which is exclusively the husband’s right. Wife has similar right in this regard.

Islam has given the correct principles and instructions regarding rights and obligations of husband and principles, if obeyed in true spirit, would ensure and social life instructions wife. These principles, if obeyed in true spirit, would ensure better family and social life.

http://www.jamaat.org/islam/husband&wife.html

ZahraJ sahiba #990 and all abusive posts....

Why does it matter to you who I am? I am Razia/Nadia/Shazia/Tania/Sobia/farzana/Samina/parvenn or naseern......blah,blah

Does it matter? You have completely lost it, my stranger sista
Your posts do not make any sense at all.

Anyway, you are showing your shallowness and ofcourse high class for abusing me with personal insults/personal attacks for having my own opinions about different articles on front page......just think about it....

And those who resort to personal abuse and personal attacks on those who disagree with them just show their brought ups and their back grounds..........

Those who resort to personal abuse/insults for others for having their own different views are just weak personalities...and you have provided me with this proof over and over again.....How low you can stoop to?

And sweet sista...
It is absolutely not your fault, it is the way your genetic makeup is....

You have had been attacking my personal life non stop in each and every board and trying your best to give me the vilest abuse possible........

You rather than discussing the actual topic @ hand and your own personal views on the current topics......always come and start personal attacks on me for holding my own views.........? Why?

I wish I could figure out why?

And this is called cyber harrassement........Just bibi

Get a life and focus on your friends.....

I only feel sympathy for you for personally insulting me , rather than discussing topic @ hand and your own views......

Nothing more to say....I am done with you....

May God(Almighty) bless you and teach you some right manners....

Anyway, let me remind you again...Alright I am schizophrenic....I am the worst person on chowk, I am low class, I am retarded, I am a liar.....Happy....

What`s the point of coming again and again and hurling abuse for me?

Bibi
Even,if, you try your best and abuse me 24/7(which you have had been doing), I will never ever lose control and I will never stoop to low level.....you know why?B/c I am from a very low class family......case closed.

All the best.


it has been years - say more about ourselves than they do about you. And if you have visited the old ``haunt`` lately which I think you may have, it is more of the same, the attack on the personal life rather than discussion of views.

Zeena Sweetie - My post was addressed to Tania. I thought you were not Tania. Why do you lie? It ain`t gonna take you to eh`dina`siratul` mustaqeem. It won`t baby! It won`t.

Hopefully, your newly acquired religion`s god will be with you. Amen!

#983 zahraJ sahiba

My post # 985 is in reply to your post # 983.....

Besides zahraJ begum sahiba

Honestly,I have never ever read your I-logs. And also I have never ever read the stuff that your post on front page, except fo rthe abuse you always hurl for me(God knows why?)

I am not interested in your i-logs, I am not interested in your fron tpage posts, I am not interested who you interact with , I am not interested who you are? I am not interested who is your friend or enemy?
I am not interested in interacting with you.....

I am not interested in discussing about you with other people.
We both are strangers for each other.....I do not consider you my friend and I do not consider you my enemy.....

You and I are from two different worlds....with absolutely different mind sets....
Just one request more.....Please, do not waste your precious time on a schizophrenic like me. Do not waste your time on a low class punjabi/pushtoon/urdu speaking like me.

Do not waste your time in focusing on me.....Just discuss your important issues with your like minded people.............

I do not have any husband....just a make believe...so what`s the point of all these abusive posts towards me?

Just get a life......

I wish you a happy and serene life other than wasting on me.

Thanks

What is ADD? Another illness.

``A syndrome of disordered learning and disruptive behavior that is not caused by any serious underlying physical or mental disorder and that has several subtypes characterized primarily by symptoms of inattentiveness or primarily by symptoms of hyperactivity and impulsive behavior (as speaking out of turn) or by the significant expression of all three -- abbreviation ADD.``

What is Comprehension?

``The act or action of grasping with the intellect : UNDERSTANDING``

www.webster.com

What is Schizophrenia? It`s not an abuse. It`s an illness.

1. a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as delusions), perception (as hallucinations), and behavior.

2. contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes

#985 - Tania Uwais - Thank you proving your symptoms of schizophrenia. Good Luck!

#988 zahraJ sahiba

I am not tania or anyone else......stop twisting my posts.....Do you know me?absolutely NOT...

And we are not here to associate with eachother..And that`s not my intent. Again, I have never ever abused a pagal lady like you. You are the one who is always ready to personally attack me.

You are the one digging in to my personal information......and that`s cyber harrassement...
You called me with the vilest gaalis possible....

Even then I am and I was civil with you. That`s your class.

Well, I agree that you`re very high class lady and I am low class street urchin...blh, blah..

My whole point is, why are you personally attacking me? Why are you cyber harrassing me?
Why are you abusing me?

I am friend or enenmy with zeemax....does that matter? And that`s my own choice to be friends with anyone with.....

I am sorry, sweet sista you do not make any sense to me......

How many times do I have to remind you , I am not the topic of this article?

In all other articles that you mentioned......I challenge you to ask chowk staff to compare your posts and my posts......I never ever provoked any kind of abuse for you or for anyone else.

Even in this article, I have been requesting you politely to stop this abuse.....But, your obsession fo rme is unbelievable.......

Well, carry on with your gaali gaaloch for me.....I will always be civil....I do not wish to involve in any kind of interactions with you.......

To you, your belief and to my mine......

Again, just one request(I know it is hard for you, sista).....please, try to avoid personal attacks and cyber abuse on me..or just minimise to one post per article......

When you come with same abuse again and again...you sound boring......

Anyway......last words.....

LEAVE ME ALONE.......PUT ME IN YOUR IGNORE LIST.

thanks

mr filosofer age of puberty 4 american girls is around 10 years - so u think a 4th or 5th grader shud be free 2 marry?

Dear TaniaU various posts (#976 - #980)-

First and foremost, assalama`o`alaikum!

I hope you are enjoying the hot weather on the east coast. It has been simply beautiful.

I think we have gotten on a wrong foot for quite sometime. I understand we all have our sensitivities, likes and dislikes. I have nothing personal against you since I am not interested in engaging and interacting with a person of your type. We are on a completely different wavelength. I found it real offensive and obnoxious when you started being personal, insulting and offensive starting from the ``Zillae` Huma Board`` and taking your anger and rudeness to ``Girls Gone Wild`` and so forth. You seem to forget all the disparaging remarks and harrasing actions by your own good self and start crying wolf. That`s a ``schizophrenic`` action.

I`ve never read any of your posts till I ran into a few where I found you plagiarizing stuff from my ilogs and posts. I understand that your intent was not bad, you liked my style and prose and started incorporating them in your interacts. I am fine with that. After all, being part of the same ummah (unfortunatey or fortunately) we need to leverage each other.

Being an adult, we do expect that you will behave in a responsible way vs. cursing everyone who expresses his or her views on Lal Masjid incident or anything to do with religion. Many of us want Muslims to evolve in a progressive and civil direction. Our recent past has been nothing but embarassing. So, change is necessary. You have no right to post disparaging remarks about other men and women who express their opinion on religion, culture and personal likes and dislikes. That`s simply out of line. And you have been on that track for over a few months. You have not been on any sirut`ul`mustaqeem for the past few months or so. If you thougt you were, then I suggest you go back and renew your faith in Islam. It does not seem that you are a born Muslim. It`s ok to move in an out, but that can impact your wellbeing and emotional health.

It`s not my style to get into petty altercations since I do not have the luxury of time and interest. I alongwith several others in the readership find it very amusing that you have chosen ``Zahid, The Rindae` Mazhub aka Zeemax`` as your spiritual guide. Since you have been promoting your happily married status on Chowk, we were concerned on the time and energy you`ve been spending on posing religious questions to a rindae` muzhab. We hope you are married to a Muslim male and not to a Pagan. Why don`t you ask your husband about the religion and subsequent questions? Probably, you should both go and attend Farhat Hashmi`s sessions or Lal Masjid`s symposiums or an ICNA/ISNA program to gain a better understanding of your religion. Or simply read the Quraan in depth. You insult Islam when you pose religious questions to a cheap pervert like rindae` mazhub. Obviously, being a free person, it`s your entitlement to have a tete-tete with whomever you wish to. But by doing so, you are delivering a wrong message to the readership. We just wanted to make sure that you don`t jeopardize your marital life over a despicable creature who has been posting unstable posts on Chowk for many months and using you for his dirty purposes.

Last but not least, you have been posting disparaging remarks towards different sects among the Muslims. Is this your definition of Sirat`ul`Mustaqeem? Are you even a Muslim?

Since you have taken upon yourself to promote the preachings of your newly acquired religion, it`s important that you are well versed in the underlying theme and mantra. You have been advised by many to change your abusive words and harassing actions towards others if you truly want to represent the religion of your choice. It may be a huge struggle for you to change your direction and habits, but that jehad is a worthy effort.

Whenever you get a chance, do explore Surah Hujraat. You can learn a lot about improving your interactions and communication skills.

Let`s agree to disagree and not misuse this forum. I hope I have made myself clear. I am not in the habit of repeating and I won`t. I guess I ended up writing this long one after running into ``ehdin`a`siratul mustaqeem`` - a quote I really care for.

Have a pleasant weekend.

PS: You don`t owe me any response. So, please save yourself the effort.

Thanks.

Re: # 981

falsafee,

........ that`s exactly what i said .. didn`t i ?......... in islam the age of consent is 11 or 12 because most girls reach puberty by then ........... now, how many 11 year olds do you know who `want` to marry a 50 year old man ?

Re: # 979hamid mirzai

At least once, try to use your ``aaklauta`` brain cell to understand what i said.once a gal has reached puberty after that she is indepedent,she can marry if she wants,its not that after reaching puberty she could be forced to marry.

God(Almighty), please show us the right pathway to find our destiny which leads us towards you.

In reply to this article(which is an attempt to humiliate Islam in the most derogatory way possible and in reply to those who are busy night and day abusing me and calling me the worst names possible for disagreeing with them.



May God(Almighty) give you peace of mind to avoid verbal abuse that you utter for No reason. May God(Almighty) give you a sound mind to reason for your unreasonable online behaviour.

Ameen.

Re: # 972

falsafee,

.... so you think the age of consent is at puberty ?............ mashallah !

Prayers from Allah(God)
Please, God(Almighty) give us a serene mind to follow your pathway, and the right pathway...

Not the pathway of those who use foul language.....Hypocrites are those who use foul language.

Ameen.

Chowk Staff

Please, go through all my posts in this article and read, if, I have abused or personally attacked this respectable lady, called ZahraJ.

I did not even interact with ZahraJ.

Now read ZahraJ`s all abusive posts towards me.............and compare who is abusing whom here? who is personally attacking whom here?

ZahraJ has had been constantly uttering the worst abuse possible for me.

Please, apply your interact guidelines here on this board. I am waiting for your fair decision.

Regards.

ZahraJ sahiba
Keep on abusing me,if, that gives you a pleasure. The way you have had been cyber harrassing me for NO reason is HILARIOUS.

Honestly, since I know your frustrations, I don`t mind such insults from a pagal lady like you.

Anyway,thank God(almighty) I did not lower my self to your level. I did not utter any kind of abuse for you or for anyone.

So, when you are pointless and do not have any valid point left, you start personal attacks on me....LOL

That makes a real sense.....calling me names, personally attacking me, cyber harrassing me just b/c I do not agree with your views shows who is schizophrenic here.....

Show me one single post here on this article or anywhere else where I abuse you?or anyone else......

Alright (like you abused me)I am hypocrite, I am zeemax`s schizophrenic protege,I have a make believe husband, I am pushtoon,I am punjabii....or I am every worst thing possible(as per your abuse)............

I agree with your views.....you are always right....Will you, please LEAVE ME ALONE?

Will you please, STOP personal attacks on me? Will you please, stop abusing me? Will you please stop cyber harrassing me?

I know you will keep on taking your frustrations out one me for no reason......as I said in my earlier posts...your obsession for me is unbelievable.....

So, keep on entertaining us with your abuse and name callings.....that shows who is right and who is wrong?
Will

Chowk Moderators - Great Job for censoring anything uttered by #974. Please get ready to sharpen the saw for the rindae` mazhub as well. Great work!!!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

[Victory for the virtuous]

Dr. Hoodbhoy - I have not had a chance to look through the pictures in your article. While logging off, I ran into the last picture ``victory for the virtuos``. It`s obvious that it`s not a woman behind the garb. You can see the hands. It`s a probably a teenage boy. Thank you for exposing the shameless men from the shameless cult.

Re: # 970hamid Mukrooh 2nd class.

The purpose of this article is to show the inauthenticity of these historical sources.Any rational person[even bhaand and meerasi] would be reluctant to rely on these sources.
The condition for marriage in islam is puberty.once a girl has reached puberty she could be married with her consent.

Re: # 966

Hamidm - I am glad that you are taking the muloon from Surah Lut to task. The duffer`s verbal diarhea is just a distraction from the real issues.

Re: # 968

falsifee,

okay, i believe you (and why not?) ......... so, now the question becomes whether you would marry off your 12 year old daughter to a 50 year old man ?...................... and the answer is ??????

Zeemax ``The Zahid`` - ``Rindae` Mazhub``

Daily Introspection for you :)

---

How to End `Islamophobia`
By TAWFIK HAMID
May 25, 2007; Page A15
WSJ Online

Islamic organizations regularly accuse non-Muslims of ``Islamophobia,`` a fear and disdain for everything Islamic. On May 17, this accusation bubbled up again as foreign ministers from the Organization of the Islamic Conference called Islamophobia ``the worst form of terrorism.`` These ministers also warned, according to the Arab News, that this form of discrimination would cause millions of Muslims in Western countries, ``many of whom were already underprivileged,`` to be ``further alienated.``

In America, perhaps the most conspicuous organization to persistently accuse opponents of Islamophobia is the Council of American Islamic Relations. CAIR has taken up the legal case of the ``Flying Imams,`` the six individuals who were pulled from a US Airways flight in Minneapolis this past November after engaging in suspicious behavior before takeoff. Not long ago, CAIR filed a ``John Doe`` lawsuit that would have made passengers liable for ``malicious`` complaints about suspicious Muslim passengers.

In an interview at the time, CAIR spokesman Nihad Awad accused Rep. Peter King (R., N.Y.) of being an ``extremist`` who ``encourages Islamophobia`` for pointing out what most people would think is obvious, that such a lawsuit would have a chilling effect on passengers who witnessed alarming activity and wished to report it. We can only assume that Mr. Awad believes flyers should passively remain in a state of fear as they travel and submissively risk their lives. In this case, Congress is acting appropriately and considering passing a law sponsored by Mr. King that would grant passengers immunity from such lawsuits.

It may seem bizarre, but Islamic reformers are not immune to the charge of ``Islamophobia`` either. For 20 years, I have preached a reformed interpretation of Islam that teaches peace and respects human rights. I have consistently spoken out -- with dozens of other Muslim and Arab reformers -- against the mistreatment of women, gays and religious minorities in the Islamic world. We have pointed out the violent teachings of Salafism and the imperative of Westerners to protect themselves against it.

Yet according to CAIR`s Michigan spokeswoman, Zeinab Chami, I am ``the latest weapon in the Islamophobe arsenal.`` If standing against the violent edicts of Shariah law is ``Islamophobic,`` then I will treat her accusation as a badge of honor.

Muslims must ask what prompts this ``phobia`` in the first place. When we in the West examine the worldwide atrocities perpetrated daily in the name of Islam, it is vital to question if we -- Muslims -- should lay the blame on others for Islamophobia or if we should first look hard at ourselves.

According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes survey, ``younger Muslims in the U.S. are much more likely than older Muslim Americans to say that suicide bombing in the defense of Islam can be at least sometimes justified.`` About one out of every four American Muslims under 30 think suicide bombing in defense of Islam is justified in at least some circumstances. Twenty-eight percent believe that Muslims did not carry out the 9/11 attacks and 32% declined to answer that question.

While the survey has been represented in the media as proof of moderation among American Muslims, the actual results should yield the opposite conclusion. If, as the Pew study estimates, there are 2.35 million Muslims in America, that means there are a substantial number of people in the U.S. who think suicide bombing is sometimes justified. Similarly, if 5% of American Muslims support al Qaeda, that`s more than 100,000 people.

To bring an end to Islamophobia, we must employ a holistic approach that treats the core of the disease. It will not suffice to merely suppress the symptoms. It is imperative to adopt new Islamic teachings that do not allow killing apostates (Redda Law). Islamic authorities must provide mainstream Islamic books that forbid polygamy and beating women. Accepted Islamic doctrine should take a strong stand against slavery and the raping of female war prisoners, as happens in Darfur under the explicit canons of Shariah (``Ma Malakat Aimanikum``). Muslims should teach, everywhere and universally, that a woman`s testimony in court counts as much as a man`s, that women should not be punished if they marry whom they please or dress as they wish.

We Muslims should publicly show our strong disapproval for the growing number of attacks by Muslims against other faiths and against other Muslims. Let us not even dwell on 9/11, Madrid, London, Bali and countless other scenes of carnage. It has been estimated that of the two million refugees fleeing Islamic terror in Iraq, 40% are Christian, and many of them seek a haven in Lebanon, where the Christian population itself has declined by 60%. Even in Turkey, Islamists recently found it necessary to slit the throats of three Christians for publishing Bibles.

Of course, Islamist attacks are not limited to Christians and Jews. Why do we hear no Muslim condemnation of the ongoing slaughter of Buddhists in Thailand by Islamic groups? Why was there silence over the Mumbai train bombings which took the lives of over 200 Hindus in 2006? We must not forget that innocent Muslims, too, are suffering. Indeed, the most common murderers of Muslims are, and have always been, other Muslims. Where is the Muslim outcry over the Sunni-Shiite violence in Iraq?

Islamophobia could end when masses of Muslims demonstrate in the streets against videos displaying innocent people being beheaded with the same vigor we employ against airlines, Israel and cartoons of Muhammad. It might cease when Muslims unambiguously and publicly insist that Shariah law should have no binding legal status in free, democratic societies.

It is well past time that Muslims cease using the charge of ``Islamophobia`` as a tool to intimidate and blackmail those who speak up against suspicious passengers and against those who rightly criticize current Islamic practices and preachings. Instead, Muslims must engage in honest and humble introspection. Muslims should -- must -- develop strategies to rescue our religion by combating the tyranny of Salafi Islam and its dreadful consequences. Among more important outcomes, this will also put an end to so-called Islamophobia.

Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.

If hamid malag number 2 believes that aisha[ra]was six or 9 years old he should first deny the facts that i am gonna present.


Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?

The Ancient Myth Exposed

by T.O. Shanavas

A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.

However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
610 CE: First revelation
610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet
EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities

Re: # 964

zeemax,

........ if it makes you feel any better i condemn mirza sahib (ra) for ``making her and her parent`s life hell with his prophecies `` ......... it was a bad thing to do and i will reconsider my plans on converting to ahmedism .......... see, that`s the problem with all prophets - they all seem to have a problem with women .........

Re: # 960

zeemax,

Uh ?............ i didn`t say that - it was a cut and paste from dr tawfik hamid .......... to tell you the truth, i didn`t even know who the guy was until zahraj introduced him ....... and i can`t be held responsible for his words ......... but even he did not accuse the prophet (pbuh) of peodphilia, he merely pointed out that ``We immediately jump in a ‘knee jerk reflex` to defend Prophet Mohammed when someone accuses him of being a pedophile`` ..........

......... you are being paranoid again

#963 by hamidm2,

Abey Chutya those are disputed accounts. The only confirmed wives are those which I listed.

Go and commit incest or something if you`re so effed up.

Hamidm2,

......... and why should i abuse muhammadi begum?....... i don`t see anything wrong with lusting for a married woman as long as her husband is not your adopted son ............

I`m not asking you to abuse muhammadi begum. Can`t you read? I`m asking you to abuse Mirza for making her and her parent`s life hell with his prophecies if she didn`t put out.

As for your other swipe re adopted son, I warned before that this issue is about pedophilia, and don`t try to sidetrack it. We`ll talk about the marriage with the adopted son`s ex-wife later.

Re: # 961

zee,

what about maryam and raihana ?......... are they chopped liver? ......... i hope that you are not suggesting - anouzobillah - tha ibrahim was born out of wedlock ?

........ i have also seen other lists that include 40+ names ......... al-lah knows better .......

#957 by ZahraJ,

Eff off aunty shamim ... I have issues with hamidm2. Go run some girls nightshift ... ok?

#959 by hamidm2,

Yes this is a complete list. You have a problem with this?

#956 by apostatem2

Mr. Apostate ... don`t try to be clever with your tricks of disguising your qadianiat in cloaking posts meant to defame Muhammad and Islam mixed with other observations. You`re not that clever.

You said in #930:

We immediately jump in a ‘knee jerk reflex` to defend Prophet Mohammed when someone accuses him of being a pedophile while, at the same time, we are proud with the story in our Islamic books, that he married a young girl seven years old (Aisha) when he was above 50 years old.

In above, you are in the first part lying that he married a 7 year old girl when you know he got betrothed when she was 9 and the marriage consummated at 13 after puberty. And next you are confirming the lie in the first part of the statement by alleging in the second part that Muslims believe that lie and are actually proud of it.

Being 50 years old doesn`t matter. You can marry your teenage daughter to a 70 years old and its not against Islam nor against any other religion nor even your effing USA`s morality.

You are nothing but a devious crook. Qadianis must be real proud of you for doing a great job.

Re: # 951

zeemax,

......... is that a complete list ?

#951 by zeemax on May 27, 2007 2:43am PT



while ignoring that Muhammad`s first wife was older than him and all the rest were nowhere near being even teenagers


So mo`s choices were eclectic..from 6 year old girls to grannies...good thing chris hanson and NBC`s to catch a predator weren`t around in 7th century arabia...

#951-#955 ``Rindae` Mazhab`` - Get a life. Your actions and steps towards a married schizophrenic are simply in bad taste. That`s not ``jaiz`` in Islam. Have some shame! I guess we need to ask Farzana Versey to help you regain your senses.

PS: Islam does not neet `rindae` mazhub`` to support it.

Re: # 951

zeemax,

........... please provide the reference where i accused the prophet (pbuh) of pedophilia - i might have questionedal-lah`s judgement and abu bakr`s motives in allowing this rather sad affair, but i don`t think i ever abused the prophet (pbuh) .......... anouzobillah !

......... and as far as al-lah mian is concerned, what i say about him cannot possibly hurt him - after all, he is omnieverything and far above the fray of common men ........... and abu bakr? ...... well, as far as i am concerned, he was just another power hungry politician who did what he had to do - in that he was no different from the chaudarys of gujrat and hakim ali zardfari .............

......... hope this calms you down a little bit ..........

......... and why should i abuse muhammadi begum?....... i don`t see anything wrong with lusting for a married woman as long as her husband is not your adopted son ............

#946 by ZahraJ,

Yeah I`m Zahid Maqbool. Now come and wrestle me. But not before a visit with Dr. David Matlock I`m afraid, because then I wouldn`t be interested.

Zeena,

Ohh, so chowk is now full of mirzaiis....why?

It is because they only have the internet now to spread their qadianiat. They don`t have any forum after being kicked out of Pakistan and looked down upon with distaste by even the expatriate Muslims. It is only the internet which gives them access to Pakistani/Indian so-called Muslim munafiqs to get any sympathy.

If you google for Islamic websites, a majority of them will turn out to be qadiani sites ... though you`ll need to drill in a bit.

#943 by Zeena,

Honest? Yes that`s what he pretends to be indeed. But in fact he`s a polite but forked tongue cheater who tries to gain credence with all schools of thought (except Islam) through being a `thali ka baingan` to veer people away from Islam. This is a typical qadiani tactic.

Do apply the Echoboom test for outing qadianis at #925 to posts of tahmed32 (and zahraJ, and hamidm2, and rf786 amongst others. You`ll find it very interesting).

... contd ...#951

Now please ask hamidm2 to abuse Mirza for lusting after Mohammadi Begum and his threatening `dire consequences` through prophecies `in writing`, which are on record, if her parents did not agree. (her parents told him to eff off and the prophecies went down the toilet as well ... but that`s another story)

If hamidm2 doesn`t do the above, no doubt will remain that he is a qadiani, and he must henceforth diesist from all protestations to the contrary.

#947 by PM,

I don`t know what constitutes abuse in your lingo either, because you`re of the variety who had said to each other at the time of Lahore riots on independence ``Saadey kolon ayadi mangdey ney ...``

But just to humor you, I will persist with your argument. Hamidm` abuses Muhammad`s marriage to Aisha (engaged at 9 and married at 13 upon puberty) which he terms as pedophilia, lifted right out of faithfreedom.org, while ignoring that Muhammad`s first wife was older than him and all the rest were nowhere near being even teenagers (Except Safyya who was 18) at time of marriage to Muhammad:

Ages of Muhammad`s wives at time of marriage:

Khadijah: 40

Sawdah bint Zam‘a: Divorcee of 55

Hafsa bint Umar: Widowed at 18 and married Muhammad at 20.

Zaynab bint Khuzayma: Previously married and widowed at Badar.

Umm Salama: Widow of a Martyr of Uhud. Age 29.

Zaynab bint Jahsh: Divorcee after a failed marriage to Muhammad`s adopted son Zayd.

Juwairiyah bint Al-Harith: Age 20.

Ramlah binte Abi-Sufyan: Married at 29 and co-habitation at 35.

Safiyya bint Huyayy: 18 or 19.

Maymuna bint al-Harith: 36.

The purpose of above is neither to convince, nor to argue with non-Muslims or apostates. This is just to avoid the charge of bigotry and dismissing these people`s charges out of hand.

Some of above marriages are controversial, but don`t side-track the issue now by bringing those up. The issue right now is `pedophilia`. How does the above evidence support that?

That is the abuse I`m talking about. If I call hamidm a dog, I need to prove he`s indeed a dog by showing clearly he lifts up his left leg while pissing in his plate.

Regards :)

Hood(lum) Bhai who has distinguished himself through his staid writing must be patting himself on back and wondering as the number of interacts approaches the magic figure of 1000. Unfortunately, the interaction is nothing but an intra-pak pow-wow with Pakistanis of all hues going for each other`s jugular daring, abusing, accusing, alleging, indicting, proving superior knowledge of Islam, Qur`an, disparaging.......
Quite naturally, one feels, after all that might be the shape of things to come after the Karachi carnage.
However, rf786, tahmed32, hamidm2 need to be complimented for their balanced, sober and studied interactions.

re. sanatani #945

``Why the fkk does the moon god of Arabs say there is not god but me. I mean this betrays him to what the fkk he is a charlatan and narcisst. ``

beyTa, kuchch cheezeiN tumhaaree samajh ke bahaar hee rehengey.

I mean, just for argument`s sake, what if there IS only one God, in any sense of that word?

If you can start to understand that saying that ``one cannot serve two masters``, you might begin to understand the whole ``there is not god but me`` deal.

That said, there are passages in the Old Testament, where God actually goes ``You shall put no god before me``. Now with that you can make a case for a narcissitic deity. Karen Armstrong does, in fact, in The History of God.

re. sanatani #945

``Why the fkk does the moon god of Arabs say there is not god but me. I mean this betrays him to what the fkk he is a charlatan and narcisst. ``

beyTa, kuchch cheezeiN tumhaaree samajh ke bahaar hee rehengey.

I mean, just for argument`s sake, what if there IS only one God, in any sense of that word?

If you can start to understand that saying that ``one cannot serve two masters``, you might begin to understand the whole ``there is not god but me`` deal.

That said, there are passages in the Old Testament, where God actually goes ``You shall put no god before me``. Now with that you can make a case for a narcissitic deity. Karen Armstrong does, in fact, in The History of God.

re. zeemax, who writes in #941:

``[Hamidm], If you`re not a qadiani, lay some abuse in the way of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and his family just in the manner you lay abuse upon Muhammad and his family.``

LOL! Kiss and tell?

But seriously... hamidm`s abused the Prophet? hmm.. I missed that. Or maybe any criticism is counted as abuse in your book, Zee?

If a distinction does indeed exist to you, maybe you can reproduce, or simply point to, some of these abuses, preferably before advising me to work on my immigration papers again. Thanks. :-)