Daughters of Hajar

Hey chowkwallas, why is Echoboom censored?

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Iron, yeah, if Chowk mirrored real life, one would certainly become a believer in eternal cycles. :)

Chowk staff, how long must we wait for you to get rid of those stupid filters? :(

Echo dada, that political unity of Muslims against non-Muslims is assured by much higher powers. Please don`t worry overmuch about it. LOL

what? has there been a decision to reach dau hazaar?

Clifty, once you have stayed long enuf on chowk you will become a believer in
(a) eternal life
(b) eternal cycles of life
(c) karmic cycles
etc etc

1000 interacts is small.

(a)You have seen all points of views repeated here in these 1000 interacts.

(b)Wait for a week, and see the replay with a similar set of characters, but perhaps different nics.

(c)Wait for another lenght of time, and see the same happen.

now (b) and (c) get repeated again and again. Youwill soon start beliving in Buddhism its it notion of rebirth and life-cycles.

Welcome to Chowk. Hope you can take everything in, and assimilate what you need to and discard the rest.

#1018 by Naqshbandi on June 17, 2007 9:18am PT

wahabimax,

Haha .. :)

1. i listened to that lal masjid mullah shouting. why should i be scared? btw what is his stature as an alim? where did he get his ijazahs from~? who are his teachers?

I doubt he has any teachers. But you seem to have plenty of teachers (as well as websites) to `explain` Islam to you. Qura`an is not enough?

2. i accept that any muslim who insults the prophet, or find fault in him, is a kafir. btw you have said things on chowk about huzoor paak which if shown to a sunni alim could possibly get you a fatwa of kufr. eg. `he is just an ordinary man`.

My contention of `he was just an ordinary man` seems to have been misunderstood. I meant he was a mere mortal of flesh & blood like everyone else, but that doesn`t preclude him from being an `extraordinary` person. How can you differ with that?

3. the last time i checked hamidm wasn`t living in an islamic country and islam orders us to respect the laws of the land we are in.

So as long as hamidm is not living in an Islamic country, it is not ok to carry out the death sentence, but it is ok if he sets foot in an Islamic country. Is that what you mean?

#1020 by Naqshbandi

...the answer is that an islamic state will happen when Allah wills--I believe when Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes.

This is so typical of sufis. Just yesterday a sufi-type Ishtiaq something was being interviewed on Business Plus channel. He was one of the accused in the Pindi conspiracy case and was court-martialed and stripped of his army rank of Major. He said`` Islam kehta hai namaz parho, roza rakho, aur jo koi karta hai karney do ... `` Haha !!!

I.e till Imam Mehdi arrives to actually implement Qura`anic injunctions, Muslims need to just `Namaz parho, roza rakho .. aur jo koi karta hai karney do ... ` Wah Bhai Wah ..

At this time, I am really offended by filtering of echo`s posts. He represents a certain point of view on this site. We can agree or disagree with that and I totally disagree with him but he is an honest and decent poster despite his attempted new additions to both urdu and english languages.

He is himself a little in the category of munafiqoon but I don`t mind his other formations.

I demand that Chowk staff raise his index level and ensure that his posts are not filtered out.

Btw, what is going on this thread? Is there any thing worth reading here?

Btw, echo why not get a new nic like echo_boom_boom?

Reproduced under is the article that the AH editors of CHOWK censored as they have censored many of my previous articles. These idiot editors on Chowk of which the major one is Mohammad Gill (the writer of pseudo-plagiarized BS), have mastered, like the US media of, drowning relevant discussion by either outright censorship of bombardment with BS. Read the article under and judge for yourselves whether it should have been published or not:

FACTIONALISM, SOCIAL MOVEMENT STRUCUTRE AND SOCIAL CHANGE by M. Asadi

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Re: # 1043kaalchakra

we have already discussed the points you have made to cliffs in #1041. well... i dont know much about Masadi but i think he has misunderstood your position.

re: philosopher # 1042

Hopefully, it might also help clarify the point made earlier to cliffs: that although people are the same, and for all intents and purposes, look and feel (and in narrow areas, even think) the same, because of their different religions backgrounds, in key matters, they become `differently rational.`

#1042 is a great post. In as much as one rejects Hinduism, one can clearly see the point philosopher is making. But we would be very hard put to find another `Hindu` who would accept Philosopher`s quest to be a philosopher as really valid so long as he maintains full faith in the Quran as the God`s word, let alone the Quran as containing the mankind`s ultimate truth.

This is the difference we have to recognize, and bridge, because dreaming it away won`t work.

Re: # 1036 Regard bhai

[how can you be a philosopher while at the same time plug for any religion]

I have read your couple of posts that you have honored us with. So far you sound to me a decent person [very unlike hamidm].so its a great honor for me to reply your post. sir; being a humble and an ordinary student of philosophy i tell you a problem with philosophy.

If a person is not a doctor he would never claim claim to be one.but there is a damn big problem with philosophy everybody considers himself a philosopher after reading a few books of the `pseudo works` of the great philosophers[the work that has nothing to do with there overall philosophical position].This is the biggest and most common fallacy around. Laymen think that philosophers are usually atheists or the philosopher who, unfortunately, doesn’t seem to be atheist has necessarily been doing `` jhak baazi`` and they [the rational lot] have to create awareness in those philosophers. This is as ridiculous a generalization as it sounds.

I don`t go into philosophical technicalities on this site.for the simple reason that none of the interacters here is a student of philosophy in the technical sense.It might be surprising to you that there is hardly any ``FIRST RANK`` philosopher who has been atheist for his entire life.A philosopher could be `skeptic` or `agnostic` but never can be an atheist. because to claim that there can be no God is nothing but a blind faith[(you might raise a question here that what it would be called if we positively assert the existence of God. It is relevant question and we will discuss it latter but I have called it blind faith as a counter argument]. even the agnosticim and skepticism of philosopher is quite different from the way laymen perceive these terminologies.

The agnosticism and skepticism of philosophers (ironically) is the prerequisite of religious philosophy (surprised? if you are you are understanding it.10/10]

Lets move forward.Skepticism in philosophy has various dimensions. A philosopher can be both skeptic and believer at the same time or it might be his `skepticsim` which would ultimately lead him to believe in God. Funny,isnt it? For example `immanual Kant` is `skeptical` about the certain aspects of knowledge but he is a believer.same is the case with descarte, hume etc. Russelian[of Bertrand Russell] is also a different knid of skepticism from what non..technical minds think it to be. It depends on the ``nature`` of their philosophical pursuits. An ordinary man would think that Iqbal and bertrand Russell can not be true at the same time. This kind of thinking stems from the complete ignorance of philosophical systems. Iqbal and Russell work within two completely different epistemological frameworks which are not by any means mutualy exclusive. They can both be relevent at the same time. Bertrand Russell`s real philosophical work is hell lot of different than the one common man read in the pseudo work of Russell and feel himslef to be ``even greater philosopher than bertarnd Russell after finishing the books like ``why i am not christian`` ``A free man`s worship`` etc. These books are nothing more than garbage in the serious philosophical circles. It has nothing to do his original philosophical position[which is impossible to discuss here]. He starts his philosophical pursuits with a question raised in his first book on philosophy ``problems of philosophy`` that; `` is there any knowledge in the world which is so certain that no reasonable man could doubt it?`` after 36 years in his last book on philosophy ``HUMAN KNOWLEDGE....its scope and limitation`` [and the last line of this book] he says`` All Human Knowledge is uncertain, INEXACT and partial and to this doctrine we havent found any limitation whatever``.

Now this is ultimate kind of skepticism. It shows the failuire of epistemology and science in solving the ULTIMATE problems of Knowledge and answering the questions which have been raised by some of the greatest minds of all times.

The religious{especialy Quranic} epistemology already claims the inadequecy of these epistemological dimension and picks the thread from here and develops its own system.[but this is not our topic now.i am just trying to answer your question]

Now i tell you the names of the philosopher who were either believers or ``skeptic`` in the sense i have mentioned above.
Plato,Socrates,ok lets leave these greek and medievel philosophers. Lets see the modren philosophers.
Descarte,David Hume,Jhon Lock,Leibnize,Immanual Kant,Hegel(believers) wittgenstien in his latter part of his life[believer] Bertrand Russell ``sceptical about the validity of all knowledge`` Karl popper ``skeptic`` in pakistani philosophers, C.A Qadir, in latter part of his life[believer][former chairman of international philosophical congress hmmm,who???? yes its not hamidm, prof khawja Ghulam sadiq(believer)] Dr abdul khaliq , Qaiser shehzad, Dr naeem ahmed, M.M sharif.[the foundder of pakistan philosophical congress, dr absar ahmed(all believers)] and there is a long list of philosophers who can think what the ``innumerable naslain`` of third rate agnostics on chowk cannot even imagine.one more thing, a lot of people consider `richard dawking` `ernest heckel` `T.h huxley as philosophers. None of these guys is a philosopher in the technical sense. they might not be allowed to attend any serious philosophical confrence if they want to.

I just wanted to answer your Question regarding the complimentary position of being philosopher and atheist.

tahmed32, I accept, naqsh can be a lot of fun. Just impossible to resist. On the other hand, Hindus tend to be a little too thoughtless in matters of religion. Truth is, I don`t share the traditional Hindu boundary-less approach to religion anymore. So my personal goal, if that matters, now is to help recognize the boundaries, and then help build bridges across them. So, I genuinely ask for your advice. In your personal consideration, is that a good approach? If so, what might one keep in mind, other than the underlying universality of mankind? Thanks.

Cliffs

For the most part, people are the same. But their religious traditions are very very different. Consider, for instance, the fact that you noted in # 1037, that Islam is growing by leaps and bounds, while other religions are not. My whole effort here was to encourage people to think why that may be the case. But Hindus, of course, are simply and completely incapable of thinking about religion, and Muslims turned out to be to be too chicken. LOL

---

To answer your question in 1037, you can get twenty different opinions, or just ask me. :)

Islam`s message is never diluted. The message is very broad, and can accommodate a huge amount of internal cultural and political diversity. Nor will the message become any different tomorrow from what it is today, or it ever was.

What will happen is that Islam`s aggregate political power will multiply manifold. So in their interactions with non-Muslims across the globe, Muslims will be able to get many many more things done, and conversely, keep many many more things from happening than they are able to today.

There is nothing to suggest that that will not be a very good thing, politically at least, for Muslims. You can think of it as revolution (if not complete takeover of many hitherto non-Muslim lands) through numbers.

And once Muslims gain P0LITICAL power, then they can create social, legal, cultural structures that help them either catch up or even surpass others in other areas, such as technology etc. After all, just because a person becomes a Muslim, he or she does not become technically dumb :)

(Of course, every Hindu worth his or her salt will jump on my neck (or imagine me to to be an evil person) to hear the politics of religion articulated, and perhaps Hamidm2 will too :). But I am telling you what is a fact.)

Re: # 1038Dhoti32

[hamidm #1027 while i agree with you on these vulgarities that zeemax and co. write when they think they are being good muslims, please dont call this ``islamic`` since these vulgarities are a result of the environment they were brought up in and have nothing to do with islam]

Sadqay jawaan.So now we should learn manners from a meerasi who utters stinking filth against our prophet[pbuh].sadqay wai sadqay.I have never seen you condeming that Ma`loon.You always seem to be taking side with that bhaand.

And sir dhoti posh would you please like to enlighten us what kind of ``environment`` produces the gem that your own dhoti has pissed in #898 about Masadi?here is the product of that ``clean environment`` you were brought up in;

from #898

[[allah mian vs hamid mian (the real story)

allah mian: what do you do for a living?
hamidm: i put dots on chowk. and what do you do for a living?
allah mian: mera kam ai banday banana (my job is to make people).
hamidm (pointing to masadi, and scolding God): ai banda banaya ai?? (what kind of a person did you make here?)]]


wah wah wah.what a ``thanda meetha`` environment you seem to be brought up in. Man...i would love to be there.

I still remeber when on another board Abu_safwaan wrote something against hamidm you suddenly discovered your decency and condemned abu_safwan. I have seen it time and again that whenver someone writes something against hamidm you become champion of manners.I have never [literally never] seen you condemning anybody who would insult anyonelse.
Man, your ``environment`` seem to be a bit too selective.ya kiya ke kafir pay baraan-i-rehmat aur hum bechaaray musulmanon pe berq girayee jati hai. Reham; oh you the custodian of good ``environment`` reham.

Now i know why Echoboom warned me the very first day i started interacting with your dhoti.Echo dada knew that it was already messed up.

kaalchakra #1031 this strong attachment to being considered a ``muslim`` is no different than the strong attachment you have to being considered a hindu or a sikh would have to being called a sikh and so forth. That is, it results from the need to ``belong``, be part of some herd. Nothing of course to do with religion, but everything to do with human weaknesses.

Instead of dripping sarcasm at naqshbandi, and (as you sometimes have done in the past on chowk) drip sarcasm about muslims, why dont you go a step better and try to rise above this tribal mindset and see humanity in a philosophically detached manner and demonstrate genuine empathy for this human condition that forces us all to seek refuge - to greater or lesser extents - in the herd. Something like that... :-)

hamidm #1027 while i agree with you on these vulgarities that zeemax and co. write when they think they are being good muslims, please dont call this ``islamic`` since these vulgarities are a result of the environment they were brought up in and have nothing to do with islam.

one more question, since islam is growing by leaps and bounds its likely that there will be more converts to any given school of thought .... whether it is wahabi or sufi or barelvi or interpretative or muslim in name only. Does anyone think thats a bad thing? that it dilutes the message to have so many people with slight differences? i will go out on a ledge here and suggest that no matter which school you may identify more with you would not consider that a bad thing.

Kaal says :

I was speaking to real people still stuck in the darkness of Hinduism and trying to ``save`` Muslims just because some Muslims might seem to ``think and feel`` like the Hindus.

Muslims think and feel for the most part like eveyone else on the planet :) and everyone has some faith and emotion which is large and fulfilling and not necessarily based on logic. Might even be a little exclusion based - Family, patriotism, friendship, love etc etc.

Hamidm,

So hopefully I`m not the only one who is dressed by his 3 daughters and given the same recurrent line about the waistline on this so damned reccurrent Father`s day. My salvation is however in the fact that they don`t ask me for any authorization so I don`t have to give any.

BTW, how can you be a philosopher while at the same time plug for any religion. Is`nt a religion archeological fragments of a frozen philosophy which will break in pieces if it evolves with new knowledge? More you question yourself and evolve your position, more you`re respected. Do the same with the religion, you`re good for the lamp-post.

lol....1035 posts mainly of imaginative insults ....i think we have heard the complete spectrum of belief and disbelief....i am starting to lose the plot. What does seem clear is that everyone here who was born muslim is still a self proclaimed muslim ...even hamidm .....very brideshead revisited.
So Kaal whats the score ? who`s winning who`s losing who`s phoning it in?

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Re: # 1030hamid M...........2

How do i tell you that it wasnt a piece of satire.i am not meerasi. it was a very sophisticated liguistic analysis.

well...even if it was ``an attempt at humour`` the tone of your #1026 shows that it wasnt ``a feeble attempt``.

That was for our friend, naqsh.

Far be it from me to accuse you of being a Hindu, naqsh! Your anger, at that tauheen, is understandable. Please accept all sincere and necessary apologies.

I was speaking to real people still stuck in the darkness of Hinduism and trying to ``save`` Muslims just because some Muslims might seem to ``think and feel`` like the Hindus.

That would go against the basic power of Islam: that so long as a person uses the label of ``Muslim`` for himself or herself, for anyone to imagine that the hold of Islam on him or her is any weaker than on any other Muslim will be total madness.

Since Hindus have no clue about such things, they repeatedly make the mistake of imagining you, among some others, to be a Hindu, for instance. Please join me in warning them against such folly. Thanks.

Re: # 1029

philospoher,

......... nice try at satire :) ......... but it still falls short ....... stick to the maan behan stuff - it becomes you ........

Re: # 1027Hamid M...............................................................2


[sory about the harsh rebuke on your feeble attempt at humor]

Hamid mian...Who told you that it was an attempt at humour. I am not a bhaand or meerasi. I take everything damn seriously. I am a student of philosophy and i am not supposed to behave like a bhaand and meerasi. You know,often, illiterate people find lifestyle of philosophers a bit funny.so its not a big deal that you took it that way.Actually if you read my post carefully you would see the very height of ``Liguistic philosophy`` and linguistic analysis. The analysis of the letter ``M`` in your ID is one the greatest mysteries in the history of ideas.So i have been trying to apply my knowledge of ``liguistic analysis`` on your ``M``.I have found some but you know the knowledge of humans can never be infalliable and complete.

People of future generations on chowk will continue to solve this mystry and try to open the `` dhol ka poal`` of your ``M``. The `dhol` that you have inherited from your forefathers.
I hope someone will be able to open this dhol and than pass it on to your kids and ask them to `beat` it. Than ,perhaps, humanity will be able to know what you really was from inside. Till than;

Bye

Re: # 1016

i am not a hindu, moron...

Re: # 1026

philosopher,

sory about the harsh rebuke on your feeble attempt at humor ......... you guys should stick to your maan, behan and sex with animal genre of islamic humor and witticism - anything else falls flat ...........

Re: # 1024

falsafee,

an islamist`s `wet` problems

........ at my age incontinence can be a problem, but let me assure you it is not fun ........ at your age `getting wet` can be fun, specially if you that is the only sex you are getting ......... and since you are still wet behind the ears, we will continue to put up with your innanities .......... but you and other islamists really should stop peeing in pants, it might give you a nice warm feeling, but it makes you stink ............. also please stop pissing in the wind - it is making you wet ......... and before i get off the subject, if you want to stop peeing on your shoes you might want to see a doctor about getting a penile implant .......

http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

Re: # 1022 Hamid Mal`oon

[but getting wet can be fun too ]

Here we go......that`s the only side of your ``M`` that i have been missing. Thanx for informing us. when a man in your age finds ``getting wet`` fun...do you know what he is called in punjabi? Ladies and gentlemen......,Fasten your seat belts please.......there we introduce a brand new and the most sensational ``M`` side of hamidM....its called.....

MUWAISH.

if you don`t know the meanings,ask any punjabi around.If you are smart enough to guess,there is a hint for you....

the number 2[dau] in his ID.

And no prize for guessing what number 2 (dau) means.

Fatwa Against The Targeting Of Civilians

excerpt from intro:

In the Name of God, the All-Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Gentle reader, Peace upon those who follow right guidance!
I am honored to present the following fatwa or ``response by a qualified Muslim Scholar`` against the killing of civilians by the Oxford-based Malaysian jurist of the Shafi`i School and my inestimable teacher, Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, titled Defending the Transgressed by Censuring the Reckless against the Killing of Civilians.

The Shaykh authored it in a few days, after I asked him to offer some guidance on the issue of targeting civilians and civilian centers by suicide bombing in response to a pseudo-fatwa by a deviant UK-based group which advocates such crimes.

Upon reading Shaykh Afifi`s fatwa do not be surprised to find that you have probably never before seen such clarity of thought and expression together with breadth of knowledge of Islamic Law applied (by a non- native speaker) to define key Islamic concepts pertaining to the conduct of war and its jurisprudence, its arena and boundaries, suicide bombing, the reckless targeting of civilians, and more.

May it bode the best start to true education on the impeccable position of Islam squarely against terrorism in anticipation of the day all its culprits are brought to justice.

Dear Muslim reader, as-Salâmu `alaykum wa-rahmatuLlâh:
Read this luminous Fatwa by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti carefully and learn it. Distribute it, publicize it, and teach it. Perhaps we will be counted among those who do something to redress wrong, not only with our hearts as we always do, but also with our tongues, in the fashion of the inspired teachers and preachers of truth.

Re: # 1021

anil mian,

........ she called me a hypocrite, to mind my own business, to loose some weight and do something about the hair that has started sprouting on my ears ........ then she signed up for yet another class in evolutionary bilogy - i think it is her third ......... i am not too worried, but richard dawkins might have some competition soon !

........ anyway, i am ashamed of being an apologetic atheist and a muslim - i feel like that guy with one foot on the pier and another in the boat ! ........... but getting wet can be fun too .....

Re: # 1011

Hamidm Sahib:

Why this condition to ``recite ... the bhagvad geeta backwards....`` for an atheist?
Even hindus cannot recite it forward. Seems you are harsher on atheist than only muslims.

I am curious what was your daughter`s response? I know what mine would have told me. Now I know why Zeena refused to be your daughter.

w-max,

you asked if my `version of islam believes in establishing an islamic state`?

the answer is that an islamic state will happen when Allah wills--I believe when Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes.

the following answer by the noble shaykh gf haddad of lebanon is the orthodox--as opposed to wahabist--view on the matter:


excerpt:
It is fard to keep not only hope but certainty that Allah will re-establish the Khilafa, and its signs are all around us so we know it is very near, and He will do so with or without us regardless of the presumed obstacles. The Khilafa is divinely appointed, it is not a question of human organization or power. AND THERE IS NO KHILAFA BEFORE AL-MAHDI.

http://www.livingislam.org -- visit it. for my money the best islamic website on the whole WWW.

tahmed

thanks for the washington post link. great article by ahmad rashid.

once the post begins to criticise yo--it being a mouthpiece of the right in the US-you`ve had it.

wahabimax,

1. i listened to that lal masjid mullah shouting. why should i be scared? btw what is his stature as an alim? where did he get his ijazahs from~? who are his teachers? he just sounds like a typicalc wahabi terrorist who is using islam to win political power. where was his demand for the death penalty for the saudis when they demolished the house in which the prophet :pbuh: was born? or when sayyida amina`s grave was bulldozed? or bibi fatima`s?


2. i accept that any muslim who insults the prophetm, or find fault in him, is a kafir. btw you have said things on chowk about huzoor paak which if shown to a sunni alim could possibly get you a fatwa of kufr. eg. `he is just an ordinary man`.

3. the last time i checked hamidm wasn`t living in an islamic country and islam orders us to respect the laws of the land we are in.

Re: # 1013

regard,

........ i agree with you - the association is essentially social ....... my very small group of childhood friends include a couple of christians and the subject of religion never comes up with them - as a matter of fact when tehsin abbassi and i were growing up, we never thought of our christian friends as being `different` in any way ........ if i had grown up in india with lots of whisky swilling ( and kebab eating) friends, i probably would have less of a need to maintain my muslim credentials ...........

....... as far as being an atheist is concerned, unless you have an educated and deep philosophical basis for being one, the social cost is really not worth it .......... there is no way that a declared atheist will get elected as president of the us in our lifetime..... so, unless my daughter wants to be a professor of evolutionary biology and get on the lecture circuit like dawkins, i would advise her to remain a sceptical muslim ......... being a half-ass atheist is worse than being a half-ass muslim - at least you have more company and can run for president !

......... i know it is outright intellectual dishonesty; but then, i never claimed to be an intellectual ...........

Naqsh

Ghazi ilm al-din shaheed rahmatullah alayhi was not even a good Muslim. Nor was Jinnah, for defending him. Right?

---

And, with all due respect, all Hindus, instead of trying to ``save`` Muslims from great evil, should stay the hell away, and worry about their own sorry situation. Why get into things of which you have not the foggiest idea?

At best, go and read some more sher-o-shayari. Echo dada should be always willing to help out. For, that`s the absolute limit of Hindu understanding.

Pardesi

What did I ever do to be accused of promoting such crap as Deen-e-elahi?! Next could be sufism itself! One drlokraj should be more than enough to pay for the sins of all of us.

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Re: # 1011Hamidm
So your islamic affiliation is essentially social while you resent the theological / philosphical content. Does Islam accept you to be atheist and still retain your links to muslim world? Is it not then an bondage on free thinking, you`re forcing your daughter to carry too?

If atheists see anything wrong with religion, specially exclusive religions, it is its encroachment of the collective social space with others. What is surprising is to see highly eclectic rationalists like Muhammed Gill, Dr Suhail, even to a degree Salim Chauhan, balk and bend as soon as this threat of apostasy- Wajib-ul-Qatl looms in the air instead of agnosticism that looms everywhere in all that they say. As it seems you live in west. Threat perception is probably not that strong. Why your daughter can`t simply slip away and decide for herself? She may live a good free thinking muslims life while professing atheism so she won`t under threat under western skies and a new muslim genre will come into being, much like in 13th century. rgds.

Brilliant, informative article in the Washington Post by Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid on how Musharraf is wrecking Pakistan in order to cling to power.
Musharraf`s Double Game

Excerpts:

Game 1: The Musharraf-Cheney Connection

...Current and past US Officials tell me that Pakistan policy is essentially being run from Cheney`s office. The vice president, they say, is close to Musharraf and refuses to brook any U.S. criticism of him. This all fits; in recent months, I`m told, Pakistani opposition politicians visiting Washington have been ushered in to meet Cheney`s aides, rather than taken to the State Department.

With Cheney in charge and Rice in eclipse, rumblings of alarm can be heard at the Defense Department and the CIA. While neither agency is usually directly concerned with decision-making on Pakistan, both boast officers with far greater expertise than the White House and State Department crew. These officers, many of whom have served in Islamabad or Kabul, understand the double game that Musharraf has played -- helping the United States go after al-Qaeda while letting his intelligence services help the Taliban claw their way back in Afghanistan. The Pentagon and the CIA have been privately expressing concern about the lack of an alternative to blind support for Musharraf. Ironically, both departments have historically supported military rulers in Pakistan. They seem to have learned their lesson. ...

Game 2: The Musharraf-Mullah Connection

the Taliban and al-Qaeda are now deeply entrenched in the tribal border belt adjacent to Afghanistan. These groups gained political legitimacy last year when Musharraf signed a series of dubious peace deals with the Pakistani Taliban. They are now coming down from the mountains to spread their radical ideology in towns and cities by burning down DVD and TV shops, insisting that young men grow beards, forcibly recruiting schoolboys for the jihad and terrifying girls so that they won`t attend school. The military has refused to put a brake on their extremism.

Musharraf promised the international community that he would purge pro-Taliban elements from his security services and convinced the Bush administration that his philosophy of ``enlightened moderation`` was the only way to fend off Islamic extremism. But Pakistan today is the center of global Islamic terrorism, with Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar probably living here.

Instead of confronting this threat, the army has focused on keeping Musharraf in power -- negotiating with extremists, letting radical Islamic students set up a base in Islamabad and so forth. Meanwhile, to spook the West into continuing to support him, Musharraf continues to grossly exaggerate the strength of the Islamic parties that he warns might take over his nuclear-armed country. In fact, the United States would be far safer if it pushed for a truly representative Pakistani government that could marginalize the jihadists, rather than placing all its eggs in Musharraf`s basket.

Re: # 1009

zeemax,

......... you know i can`t do that ........ all my friends, my family and my enemies are muslims ...... i love eid and shab e barat, sheer khurma and zarda............... and even though i haven`t done it in many years, i would still love to go to bari imam and imbibe some bhang with the wonderful men of god; my mother was a practicing muslim even though she used to spit on the floor weneverever she mentioned the word `wahabi`; and even though my father was a non-practicing muslim who never prayed in his life he donated the land for the neighborhod mosque and spent a whole year supervising its construction when he was seventy five years old; mrs hamidm is a muslim who pulls out the prayer rug frequently and goes into a religious frenzy during ramzan; even my children are part-time muslims ...... when the older one declared she was an atheist, i told her she couldn`t be one until she had read every book by richard dawkins and could recite the bhagvad geeta backwards .............. and to be honest, i really don`t have a problem with the concept of god - it is just that i find it hard to believe in the bumbling caricatures we have created to represent him ......... how can you respect someone who cannot, or will not, save his own son from being lynched ? ........... as for the prophet (pbuh), i don`t have too many quibbles with him inspite of some obvious flaws in his character - after all he was a man, and all men have flaws ............

........... so please stop trying to excommunicate me - i would be an awfully lonely man if i quit islam ........ and besides, what would i be - a hindoo? ........ you know that i don`t like vegetables ...........

........... may allah calm you down before you blow an artery or a passsenger bus ....... amen........

your brother in faith

#932 by zeemax on June 16, 2007 2:02pm PT

It`s a good thing you`re on welfare...IF you had a job, it would be painful knowing that your taxes were being used to protect someone who blasphemed against pbuh-dude...

...contd...#1008

... or if according to your definition, only a muslin should be killed, then I would like hamidm to declare he is not a Muslim. He declares quite to the contrary and in that case even according to your own definition he is Wajib-ul-Qatl.

#1004 by Naqshbandi,

Whether Ghazi Ilam Din was a barelvi or a Wahabi ... whatever you say ... whether it was an Islamic State or not ... whatever you say ...

But he did effing kill a blasphemer didn`t he? And Jinnah defended him.

Now you tell me .. why shouldn`t hamidm2 be killed?

:~)

Dr. Gill,

I am sorry I missed out on this very interesting article and what appears to have been a very lively debate. I agree with Ms. Nomani and others like her and also wish them lots of luck - especially under the present climate of highly inflamed passions.

BJ Kumar

Naqshbandi,

Listen to this and quake in your boots.

Re: # 985

wahabi-max,

ghazi ilm al-din shaheed rahmatullah alayhi did it as an individual, of his own back. that he did it out of ishq and is thus a hero is another matter. it does NOT affect the point that in an islamic state, i repeat, an islamic state, vigilantism is not permitted.

ntw ghazi ilm al din was what you`d call a barelvi you wahabi hypocrite.
when has a wahabi ever died for the honour of the prophet? you guys are too busy calling other muslims mushriks and blowing things up--that is when you`re not crying bida` bida` shirk shirk.

name one positive thing the wahabis have contributed to islam in the past 100 years?

#999 by Folio,

Mr smartass, as for your stupid argument ... just compare California with Mississippi ... :)

#1000 by rfbismillah (fake),

Abey chutyam prasad, these are the the figures presented by your own machhar minister and your machhar Sindh government.

And what does budgetary allocations got to do with GDP?

Now teach me how to compute GDP ... idiot ... machhar qabza muhaaz :)

#997 bu no nick fool,

Abey ... which article is that? In any case these khisiani billis have no other answers but to abuse me when they can`t challenge my facts ... so eff off :)

Re: # 991

lora daas,

U dont even know the difference btw state and provincial budgetary calculations, therefore no need to comment on your chutyaappa....

Congrats Dr. Gill for 1000+ posts here.

OK, what does it matter if Sindh/Karachi contributes more or less to the nation`s kitty or the GDP? Isnt it the job of the planners and mandarins to use that money/wealth 4 the wellbeing of the less fortunate provinces?

The silly argument (abt %ages) is like whose willy is longer. LoL!

Re: # 991

jaalee painday,

sub sey murwathee ho, aur hum sey sharmathee ho....yeh kia nakhren hein....

Re: # 994 zeemax if you move to the other aticle you will see that you are being abused left-right-and-center there! Your integrity is being questioned, and you have been called all sorts of names.

Just a public service broadcast for your benefit.

Good Morning!

HP ji
Welcome back. Nice to see you. Atleast my presence here brought you out of hiding. You are a great warrior. Keep it up. And by the way, I am not padre. I am pidar. As for logic, you already know that I have very very limited intellect and so there is no hope for me.
aur baqi sab theek? Baal bache khush haiN?
Regrds

Janab Zeemax ji
Aapne mujhe pehchanane maiN itni der laga di? Why so, I thought you are very intelligent. But now I think, you are `Handsome`.
Regards

Re: # 987 ``what is going on here? why so many posts on this article?``

Islamic revolutionaries are educating everyone on virtues of real Islam.

Kaalchakra is working on his Deen Elahi in order to make peace with Islam.

Hamidm has given up on humans and is directly enlightening Allah Mian.

HAPPY FATHER`s DAY every one :)

Looks like the current chowk associate-editor i.e. this gill apostate has been smart. He posted just enough articles this week to make sure this piece of crap by him remains on FP and hits a thousand posts which few of the nonsense posted as Chowk FP articles have achieved. But he must remember it is only because of a few interactors like me who latch on to some particular subject, and nothing to do with the article itself ...

I also have a not so unfounded suspicion that this is the bugger who has banned Echoboom from FP because Echoboom has taken this worm to the cleaners a few times.

Maybe HP would like to comment on out of entire Sindh`s 27%, how much is Karachi alone ...

... now forever remain silent if you have any ghairat left ... you Mutahidda Qabza Machhar ...

Hey rfbismillah (fake),

Interested in the UP thread I opened? LoL ... 70% club ...!

Baji Tazeen, rf786, salim chutyam and other machhars of 70% club

Started by zeemax on June 16, 2007 3:26am PT

Sorry to shatter your myths, and break your illusions, but this settles your nonsense once and for all:

The members of 70% club (i.e. who say Karachi is 70% of GDP, industry, revenue, geniuses, paans, machhar bums, tit-less wonders etc) and constantly complain about Punjab usurping their rights, may please pay attention:

Sindh’s GDP estimated at Rs240 billion

By Sabihuddin Ghausi

KARACHI, June 15: The Sindh’s GDP has been estimated at $40 billion by the Sindh Senior Minister, Syed Sardar Ahmad, in his budget speech who called it the second largest economy of Pakistan.

At this estimate of $40 billion (Rs240 billion), Sindh’s economy is roughly a little more than 27 per cent of the national economy and has apparently slipped down from 33 to 34 per cent of the national economy during the decades of the 60s, 70s and even during a part of the 80s. The federal ministers put national economy at $146 billion (Rs8,760 billion) in 2007 and hope to push it up further by seven per cent plus during 2007-08.

But the senior minister in his speech did not elaborate further on Sindh’s regional domestic production to inform public of the contribution of various components of the economy indicating that the $40 billion estimate was a mere guesstimate rather than the result of a serious exercise. There is not a word on industrial growth, agricultural production, services sector, mining, fisheries, livestock, schools, hospitals, enrollment of children, particularly of girls in schools.

A day earlier, the Punjab chief minister had informed public that Punjab’s GDP was 53 per cent of Pakistan’s economy and that it showed a growth of eight per cent plus during 2006-07.

By implication, the Punjab chief minister made it known to all that economic growth of his province was well above the national average growth of seven per cent. It means that the three other provinces are far behind in development and Punjab is the growth engine of Pakistan’s economy.

By this estimation, (Punjab’s share of 53 per cent and Sindh’s 27 per cent), the share of the other two provinces, Balochistan and NWFP, comes to a mere 20 per cent. There is no study to show how much is the share of each of the two provinces — Balochistan and NWFP — in 20 per cent.

Don`t want to rub it in, but remember what I had said?

Punjab`s economy is bigger than rest of the three combined.

Re: # 985

Had it not been for the sufi`s your sorry ass wud still be working in the fields of Ranjeet Singh and u wud have been lovin it. Thats the problem with your kind of rodents, give them food they ask for clothes, give them shelter they ask for land and give them God and they become God.

Why dont u adopt your favorite wahabi hobby, tie a suiicide belt and blow your self up, that way another filthy wahabi wud be less and the world will become a better place. We all know how much u want to do it, now dont be shy and do the right thing.

read 700+ onwards on what is going on ... :)

#987 by HP ,

humsab is a typican `baghal mein churri munh mein ram ram` type of banya ...

#986 by Humsab

``it is my job to save him from your clutches (your influence). ``

this fker is a padre. He is out to save people.

``let us see if you can give logical answers to the questions I raised``

I haven`t read the whole thread but I doubt that you even have the ability to ask any thing remotely close to logical. Accept your shortcomings and don`t pretend otherwise. You are an idiot and you need to believe in yourself.

Btw, what is going on here? why so many posts on this article?

Zee ji
Why you people lack patience? Why don`t you read # 982 and then respond. I was not pontificating on Islam but was pontificating on good manners and restraint ( word that I suppose does not exist in your dictionary). Philosopher is basically a good person and as another human being`s well wisher, it is my job to save him from your clutches (your influence).
Now coming to Islam, let us see if you can give logical answers to the questions I raised yesterday or you will shy away telling me that being hindu I won`t understand.
Regards and smile because world is a beautiful place with wonderful people all around.

#976 by Naqshbandi,

...just as the hadd laws CANNOT be enforced in the absence of a Caliph (read fiqh 101) so also t islam does not allow vigilantes to murder someone for insulting the Prophet...

Naqshbandi, try getting this into your sufiana-shite-infested single-cell brain:

Who was that guy whom none other than M.A. Jinnah defended? Ghazi Ilam Din (Shaheed)? And for what crime?

Ever heard of this guy who is regarded as a great hero?

Now go and tell me both Ilam Din and Jinnah were `wahabi` or whatever you want to call them. You`re just deluded in your relapses from bhang and afeem. Try some `dhol` of Pappu Sain at Shah Jamal or distribute some rotis at Data Darbar to get your faculties back ... :)

#982 by Humsab,

I think Abu had amply clarified that we Muslims regard the prophet, his wives, and other family members more than our own baap-ma-behn-beti, and always will. We don`t allow garbage to be tossed on either of them one bit.

But you won`t understand that being a hindu. These are Muslim things so please stop pontificating on the subject.

#977 by philosopher

Brahay karam oos karmoun jali kee maaang bher dee jiyay.

LoL .. I think you`re really doing a PhD in Urdu and not falsafa ... :)

philosopher ji
This is not done. The moment this born again muslim Zeemax came on the scene, you went back to the field of darkness, enlightenment and ice creams. Why can`t you people leave hamidm`s family alone? Has he ever abused anybody`s ma-behn-beti? Seriously, you need to learn a lot particularly art of discussing without being emotional and in a detached manner.
Regards

Re: # 910

Hamindm sahib:

``...between me and him ......... if he is so omnieverything ...``

You might like to think of using ``Him`` and He, don`t you think?

Re: # 811

Abu...

``For people that never recieved the message of Islam, Allah swt will deal with them differently as compared to the ones that received the message and then rejected it because they had corruption in their nature.``

You mean a `Rehmat` - the receiving of the message of God - became a `zehmat` for them?

Was not the message of Islam meant only for the Arabs as Allah says I send message only in the language of the nation for which it is meant.

Re: # 978shoushah uncle

Kiyon apni Aakhrat kharaab karte ho? Go prepare yourself for hoories of Jannah.lest you remain frustrated in the Aakhrat as well.
And BTW how is your computer doing now?Perhaps it has been trying to save you from the hellfire that you are gonna feel in the ever lasting June and july of Jahanaam.but you seem to be unaware of this last divine warning.
I wish ``aap ke computer mein keeray parain`` so that you stop spreading this filth on chowk.

Re: # 919

hamidm2

Why be sad and optimistic at the same time?

How could enlightenment and moderation go together? It was just hypocrisy (munafiqat). It seems to be a defining interlude in the Paky history. It is, what they say, `Damma dam must qalandar`. The Lal Masjid is doing a yeomans job in exposing `munafiqana` moderation of the Paky society wherein a minister could openly maintain a keep at public expence in the heart of the capital and no body took notice of it except the mullah of the lal masjid.

Again, you must have heard the report about the tracing of Nishtar Park suicide bomber who had killed dozens of the leaders of the Sunni Jamaat by exploding himself. That bomber reportedly belonged to `Lashkare Jhangwi`, an extremist anti-shia organization. But don`t be surprized as I had seen posters and wall-chalkings (by some extremist Wahabi group perhaps) which condemned both sunny (Barelvi?) and shia as `mushrikeen`.

But:

``Mudaayi laakh bura chaahe to kia hota he
Woh hi hota he jo manzoore khuda hota he``

Many an issuers of death-edicts have died (barazaae Ilaahi?) while their edictees (?) are alive (bilaa barizaae Ilaahi?) and kicking.

You are great Mian Hamid but as Iqbal says:

``Gaahe `teri` nigaahe tez cheer gayi dile wajood
Gaahe ulajh ke reh gaei `tere` touhimaat mein``.

Re: # 975naqshay
Re: # 975NAQSHAY


[One can still become a kafir for insulting the Prophet but in the absence of an islamic state islam does not allow vigilantes to go and kill people for whatever reason]

My question raised back in #948 is still waiting for reply like a ``pre feminism and enlightened maadration`` Biwi who would stand and wait at the door to recieve his ``Sirtaaj`` and ` majazi khuda``

Brahay karam oos karmoun jali kee maaang bher dee jiyay.

zeemax, try getting this into your wahabist-hate-filled brain:

just as the hadd laws CANNOT be enforced in the absence of a Caliph (read fiqh 101)

---

so also t islam does not allow vigilantes to murder someone for insulting the Prophet even though anyone who finds fault with His Excellency alayhisalatuwasalam in any way or form becomes an apostate. Get it?

raw_dust..how about these gems from the wahabis-deobandis,

`` Jissay Ali Nabi kehte hain woh tinka tor ka do bhi nahin kar saktay`` -- ismaeel dihlavi in his utterly burnable book taqwiyatul iman.

``To think of the Prophet in namaz is worse than thinking of a quadraped``
``What`s so special about the Prophet`s knowledge? Such knowledge is also shared by cows and goats and quadrupeds and insects..``--Ashraf Ali Thanawi
``The Prophet did not even know what was behind the wall``--Ismail Dihlavi
``Allah Ta`ala is capable of lying`` -Gangohi
``The Prophet died and turned to dust``- many deo books

etc. etc.

One can still become a kafir for insulting the Prophet but in the absence of an islamic state islam does not allow vigilantes to go and kill people for whatever reason...

also, rushdie was already a self-confessed kafir BEFORE he wrote the utterly burnable satanic verses; whereas your religious elders of deoband and other wahabis insult the Prophet whilst pretending to be pious religious leaders!

#973 by philosopher,

Yeah .... that`s why I saved your post ... need some manners being the cursed guy LoL ...

Be back when the ``SHAITAANS`` are around ... BRB !!!

Re: # 972zeemax

[Lo .... dono daurh gaye .... oh well .... naqsha bhi aur khudai khidmatgar bhi]

The glorious says that; when truth comes falsehood perishes. Lo;falsehood by its nature bound to perish.

LOL.

You desparatly need to learn manners because you are the most cursed guy by the ``SHAITAANS`` around.

May shaitaans keep cursing you.LOL.

#971 by philosopher,

LoL ... correct ... that protocol was unbeatable ... In fact I`ll save it to improve my manners !!

Lo .... dono daurh gaye .... oh well .... naqsha bhi aur khudai khidmatgar bhi ...

Re: # 970zeemax

LoL.Actually that ``fill in the blanks`` guy was asking us to be polite as if he was born in the ``Mughal darbaar`` So i just gave ``His excelency`` the proper protochol.LOL.

#968 by philosopher,

Philosopher ... that post of yours in Urdu was fantastic ... there can be be NO translation for ``Qauransh bajaa lata hoon`` ... LOL.

So maybe you can show Mr. Raw_Dust some of that brilliance in politeness .. Haha

BTW Khudai khidmatgaar, Islamic State is NOT = God`s kingdom.

Do go back to Islam 101 :)

Re: # 966Raw-dust

Chal beta shurooh kar circus. Apni bhi Umar guzri hai is dasht ki seeahee mein.

Adaab

#965 by philosopher,

I don`t have a clue which category he belongs to ... but his #949 was a good question as well ..

I think he`s a murtid though ...

philosopher:
don`t stress yourself out too much about me. it won`t do you any good.

Re: # 961zeemax

I don`t know about this Khudai khidmatgaar. what sect does belong to, Kafiroon, Mushreeqoon, Munafiqoon, Murtadoon or all these doon combined together,like hamid M...........doon.?

zeemax: khudai khitmatgaar lol. relax old man. :-)

I guess, he has the right to his own beliefs and be that as it may - consider whoever as Kaafir, blasphemous, Hellfuel, etc? No?

Islamic State = God`s kingdom on the second coming of Hazrat Eesa and Substitute Trial = Aakhirat and you get the consistency. ;)

#959 by Raw_Dust,

Good try, but doesn`t cut it. Let naqshbandi come back and attempt.

#960 by philosopher,

LoL ... you`re cruel ... and now you have this khudai khidmatgaar to deal with ... :)

Re: # 959Raw-dust


Ok.but how would he implement the jurisprudence[school of thought] that he follows???
And what about the trial of ``wahabis..sunnis..and deobandis?if they are not gonna be trialed in ``this world`` why does he label them as kafirs and blasphamous?

philosopher:
lemme try. I think, Naqshbandi was alluding to the impending kingdom of God, the one that exists eternally (forever and ever and ever-after) and how about taking Naqshbandi`s ``full and fair trial`` as an allegorical reference to Aakhirat - Judgement Day? Don`t go literal. :-)

#954 by philosopher,

I don`t suppose there`s going to be any answer to your question. You`ve regretfully caught naqshbandi with his knickers down ...

I think they`ve set some kind of filter for anything containing `daughter` for hamidm. Stupid.

`` Just as in early childhood one suffers from measles & whooping cough..so do some catch Tthe tuberculosis of the western thought in their prime youth....``

Read on!
Enjoy!
Rahul Capri & a lot of Urdu-adab afficiondos would really enjoy these. Hamidm2 would be able to gaze at his future and a lot of Liberaloonies would mutter `` There is still hope; we will, inshallah, get redeemed``

Oh it`s here. They filtered that too:

You have selected to view an interact that has been filtered as per Chowk InterAct! Guidelines

Hima Khanum kay naam:

Chaudhry Mohammed Ali Rudoolvi`s delightful letters to his daughter Hima KhanUm.

What`s going on? This is ridiculous.

Re: # 952zeemax

LOL: hahahah. No i am not drunked. I am still waiting for the naqshay`s answer.

Echoboom,

The link to `Hima KhaanUM kay Naam` is missing in your post.

#948 by philosopher,

Oh ... great question ... so you`re not drunk YET after all ... LoL.

Yes naqshbandi, pls answer that!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#947 by Naqshbandi,

...you guess WRONG. the punishment for insulting the Habib IS death

I stand corrected.

...Sunni-Wahabi, Barelvi-Deobandi...

I honestly do not know anything about the above, why these exist, nor why these are important.

``I think you should look at your own Wahabi-Deobandi-Ahle Hadith scholars who have blasphemed more against the Prophet than any non-Muslim has including Rushdie.``

Naqshbandi:
What are you getting at? Does it have to do with Deobandi concept of Mohammad as a mortal and their refusal to attribute any sacred, blah, Godly-ether(Noor) to him?

Do you think it`s more blasphemous than Rushdie`s alternate history of Mecca pertaining to Meccan brothel-workers role-playing Mohammad`s wives to hike their business in Satanic Verses?

I am not so sure.