Preventing More Lal Masjids
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 10, 2007
#1004 Posted by akcheema on February 23, 2008 6:15:52 am
Has any one ever wondered about the following:
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known” universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person” even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz” was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will”?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam” is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message”! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona” (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona” is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict” with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us”!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride” so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects” of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable” aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith” and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate” is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths” down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul” etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm” in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness” of “Deen/way of life” is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
If a book (the Qur’an in this situation) is meant to be from God/Allah, why do two individuals of equivalent intelligence always come up with different interpretations of the text?
There are many contradictions in the Quran; the only people unable to see them are those completely brainwashed and have lost the ability to think rationally. They come up with all sorts of historical/non-historical justifications for these such as the arabic language/literary peculiarities etc. nothing substantial or scientific; perhaps they are not aware of this concept.
There are literally billions and billions of galaxies and star systems in our “known” universe; supposedly we are talking about a creator that is well beyond the confines of any material boundaries; why would such a “person” even care about what goes on in individual hearts and minds on a teeny weeny planet! Why would he be upset about, for example, a woman showing off a bit of skin or someone not observing some ritual exactly how it was prescribed (when there are literally hundreds of such, very contradictory, rituals in Islam amongst the sects; not to quote countless other similar examples.
If the “Loh-e-Mahfouz” was the first thing created with the deeds of all living things and their fate already prescribed, what the hell is the meaning of “the free will”?!
If a ruler of my country wanted me to abide by ceratin rules, I would expect them to be laid down explicitly and clearly for all to understand. Otherwise, I would think they were unjust in prosecuting me for misgivings; why are there so many ambiguities as to what the “true Islam” is; that definition is certainly not unanimous by anyone’s standards as we ll know; the interpretations are so varied and far apart at times that it is mind boggling!
According to the Quran, Allah gave his blessings to the Bani Israel but they betrayed his trust many a times, so he went off them completely and chose a different people for revival of his “Only and True Message”! Are we thinking that an omniscient and omnipotent God, with the inherent knowledge of everything, transcendent through the confines of time, made a mistake!! Then he tried to correct it by chosing arabia for his chosen messanger! How odd!!
Prayer is such a contradictory term, don’t you think. If all is already decided, does God change his mind if we were to grovel before him and grants us our desires as a reward; very confusing!!
The only answers I ever got for these as a child, and many other similar questions, was that we CANNOT work out God’s will and he is the only one who does; what the hell are we doing with our assess up in the air five times a day then!!
All of the above seem to be the desires of the needy and not fullfilled “persona” (to quote Al-Razi); Is it that we have created this “persona” is OUR OWN IMAGE rather than the other way around?
Is our “conflict” with the rest of the world sheer paranoia “they are out to get us”!! and the only reason we cannot accept this is our inherent “sense of pride” so deeply indoctrinated that we cannot listen to reason.
The reason I am talking about the Islamic context here is because that is my background and I wish to discuss the very foundations of this faith. It is all very well to hide behind the “good aspects” of Islamic history and ignore the other “less desirable” aspects, but the question is what it is all based on; without foundation, there is nothing left. I criticise any dogma based on “faith” and th other so-called faiths are no exception to this; however, I prefer people from those cultures to comment on their own cultural heritages.
Problem with being “moderate” is that moderation, whatever it might mean, harbours and nurtures extremist elemnts. Extremists to me mean people who are trying to follow their “faiths” down to the last letter. This Sufism etc have nothing to do with what Islam actually is; it is a digression from the mainstream. Sufis were always at the fringes of mainstream society and their ideas of “Sulha-e-kul” etc have nothing to do with the message of Islam; though I do admit it can make Islam a bit more palatable!
If we had all the “knowledge/Ilm” in the Quran, why would we strive for more; the whole idea of “the completeness” of “Deen/way of life” is not compatible with modernity of any kind, however that is defined. Of course we can cherry pick and find quotes to justify absolutely anything that WE WANT TO; that itself is the biggest weakness of religious dogma; interpretable with vast differences of opinions between individuals of equivalent intelligence!
Surely, they can't ALL be true!!!
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#1003 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:19:48 pm
I find communism and Islam similar ( I am no expert in both the matters).Both of these beliefs are doing ( apprently) good to one at the cost of others. Try to organise and thrash the oposition to submission. They take stand, which is not principled but most of the people like that. Ultimately, both of these are very popular, but the people follow it, has dismal record of human contribution.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
I have heard a nice story....
A gang of robbers looted a bank using fake arms. While escaping, the employees of the bank started shouting. The robbers has come by couple of bicycles. So, how will they escape? Thay have looted around 2.8 lakhs. They have thrown around 1 lakhs to the people around the bank and easily escaped. Most of us are like,those who were collecting money thrown by robbers.
#1002 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 8:03:12 pm
Re: # 965
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
Are you from India? Most of the riots are started by moslems (Meerut, Bhagalpur, Mumbai). Moslems were of the view that they are very couragious and can easily inflict injury to the people there ( most of the people there are vegetarian and strictly practice non violence). When RSS/VHP/Shiv Sena organize people in large number and starts thrashing moslems and police backs them, they starts cribbing. Don't start riots. Use Friday afternoon prayer to bring peace in your mind, not start violence. Why don't you see similar riots with Christians, Jains, Budhdhists in India? The history of riots in Gujrat is more than 200 year old. Most of the time moslems used to start and inflict more casualty on the Gujratis. Last riot (2002), for the first time in Gujrat, moslems were in receiving end.So, the way media is projecting, is not the situation on ground. The riot was supported by large section of non-moslems. How come people of a state, which have a bright son like M K Gandhi resorts to violence? I have sympathy for moslems in Gujrat. But, the problem they have created in Gujrati society is far more dangerous. They are truning into a Hindu equivalent of Moslem society (Left liberal poeple call Gujrat now Hindu Pakistan).
#1001 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:38:43 pm
Re: # 997
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
Your mind is perfectly perverted. If you are that much concerned with Indian association, then please stop Pakistani patients to be treated in Indian hospitals. India is much larger opportunity for people of Pakistan than Pakistan. It is up to the individual to decide what he/she wants. Regarding the matter of Kashmir, it is political. When India and USA were in different camp, other than sensitive areas, people to people contact was quite well. Don't mix diplomatic,defence matters with common people's interest. Pakistan is now in better position about Kashmir. Once, USA finds any links with Kashmiri militants with international terrorism, USA will force Pakistan to close these terrorist training camps. Pakistan has lost in all front ( diplomatic channel in UN,military adventure) in Kashmir several times. That is the reason, they are using jihadis in informal way.
#1000 Posted by nkg on December 11, 2007 7:28:52 pm
Re: # 998
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
There are couple of factors you are not taking into account.
What British people will do after capturing the land? That area was not of great resource and significance. So, they have left that area. The role of US technology in defeating USSR is well known.
#999 Posted by hunzai on November 18, 2007 7:16:32 pm
Is there a viable quick fix to the radicalism that has engulfed Pakistan over the last one decade? I don’t think so there is one. Then what is the alternative. Regrettably there is not any single alternative either. There will always be a diversity of interpretations of Islam (as has been historically), diversity of religious expressions, political persuasions and some form of radicalism. This has been the general historic pattern and character of any Muslim society for a very very long period of Islam’s tumultuous history. Given these conditions and I suppose sweeping assumptions about the nature of our history then what is so questionable and bewildering about contemporary radicalism in Pakistan. It is the senselessly violent behaviour that has penetrated in the minds of religious zealots that is going to be a terrible thing. So where is the wellspring of this hatred and violence that has to be directed against? It is the West, if we talk in terms of geography, and modernity and its consequences if we talk about in terms of the guiding philosophy. Although West may be a confined idea of a monolithic real and abstract entity but modernity is fluid. Modernity is all over, it has penetrated into the heart of ‘Islam’. So the enemy is all that is modern. These unassailable religious horsemen of apocalypse, always talk about the ‘signs of the day of judgement’ and deliver endless sermons in mosques denigrating the West and its ‘moral decadence’. They will endlessly talk about the promiscuous behaviour of Western women and their jealously guarded liberty, but they miss the fundamental point about this whole exercise.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
What is it that they miss? Well they miss the point that modernity is not just a conspiracy against Islam or modernity leads to moral decadence. This is a totally mis-understood phenomenon in the minds of religious zealots. Modernity is all about adopting a critical attitude towards everything, applying human reason in matters of faith, politics, economics and in all aspects of life. The application of reason simply melts away, what Marx called, ‘all that is solid into air.’ It is the constant change that has to stay here staring at our faces to be understood. So what is really important to minimise the catastrophic consequences of radicalism is to radiate the minds of these people with not the symptoms of modernity as symbolised by the West but to illuminate its real intellectual foundations. This way is the only way forward.
#998 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:37:26 am
the problem is that...we have created fight with those people who freed half of Kashmir...this Azad kashmir was all captured by Mahsood tribe ...and other tribl people....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
they are one of the bravest people living on the face of earth....
when British were ruling the whole indo pak..and half of the world...even then British made a pact with them..and not ruled upon them...
Russian like super power could not defeat them...
and US and NATO are unble to defeat them....
but due to our Baighairat generals...we have bombarbed our own people there..and in revenge..they have strted suicide bombing..yes..they also did some mstakes...but firing missiles on madrassas is unaccetable ..
and thats why we have burn the fire of hell..in all this tribal area..which has reached inside Islamabad also....
#997 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:36:44 am
in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
#996 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:35:42 am
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#995 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:34:21 am
These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
#994 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:33:31 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#993 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:58 am
Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
#992 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:32:17 am
You said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#991 Posted by nasah on July 26, 2007 7:20:24 pm
In my view way one of the surest ways to prevent more Lal Masjids will be exactly what some of the smartest personnel of PTV did to that bearded Mualla Aziz on prine time -- interviewed him in Burqa on national TV teaching the the PTV audience -- not how to give birth to an Islamist militant without a tear -- but how to wear Burqa over a beard with poise and piety -- and still be taken seriously.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
I tip my hat for the PTV staff for doing world’s most creative interviewing on PTV.
#990 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:33:38 pm
An article in an online Arabic Insternational Paper (English Edition); author's got some good points
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à-vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=9654
Today in Pakistan
22/07/2007
Hussein Shobokshi
After the dust has settled, gunfire sounds abated and bodies buried following the siege of the Red Mosque in Pakistan, it might be useful to contemplate deeply the conditions of this large Islamic country and how it has transformed into a hotbed of corruption and extremism.
Pakistan was just a project of a country for the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. But firstly, this idea was founded upon secular and economic bases, which soon evaporated and vanished vis-à-vis the military coup d'états and corrupt regimes. The most dangerous era of Pakistan’s contemporary history, however, is that between Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohammed Zia ul Haq, when state institutions, which Bhutto sought to establish, were destroyed at the hands of Zia ul Haq, as he allowed the extremist ideology to proliferate and penetrate, and further strengthened the military institution at the expense of civil institutions, creating a favorable climate for corruption. Subsequently, Pakistan transformed into a breeding ground for nepotism and was cited as an example of corruption and included on the lists of corrupt states. Without doubt, the successive governments, which came to power after Zia ul Haq, fell into this quagmire.
What has happened in Pakistan may be full of lessons for what could afflict more than one Arab state, particularly in view of the abominable extremism of Islamist groups, a large number of which have become hard-line, and the judiciary that collapsed before the exacerbation of corruption and despotism of military rulers. Meanwhile, we cannot overlook drawing comparisons between India and Pakistan, whereby India created a dazzling political system and reaped the fruits of stability that was boosted by an economic growth approximating a miracle.
Pakistan should have followed a development approach to concern itself with internal issues rather than devote itself to the Kashmir cause for example, in which millions of dollars were spent and scores of people were killed. This cause is not of great significance because Indian Muslims themselves enjoy good and safe conditions. For instance, the Indian president and India’s richest businessman [Azim Premji] are Muslims amongst others. Therefore, if stability and security were maintained in Kashmir without foreign intervention, it would become an active player in the homeland.
In fact, the tremendous collapse that afflicted Pakistan and turned its provinces into disputing statelets, some of which are out of control, should be taken into consideration and its consequences should be deliberated upon. Therefore, if the Pakistani disease becomes worse, it will lead to the collapse of the Pakistani government and army that is being penetrated by radical fundamentalism and Pakistan will be transformed into a lifeless jungle.
Hussein Shobokshi
A Businessman and prominent columnist. Mr. Shobokshi hosts the weekly current affairs program Al Takreer on Al Arabiya, and in 1995, he was chosen as one of the "Global Leaders for Tomorrow" by the World Economic Forum. He received his B.A. in Political Science and Management from the University of Tulsa.
#989 Posted by Al_Bundy on July 23, 2007 8:26:40 pm
An almost honest (with spin) article by a Pakistani writer in a Pakistani paper
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65516
Bleeding Pakistan
By Anees Jillani
I probably have spent all my life pleading with the relevant quarters not to support militancy, whether directed towards our eastern or western neighbour. However, I have always given a 'sermon' about bleeding the Indians and the doctrine of strategic depth when it came to supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. India did not really bleed in the nineties and early part of this decade, except that the Muslims in the Indian-held Kashmir and the foreign mujahideen waging a jihad did; the Indian defence forces nevertheless definitely also incurred a cost, both financial and a substantial human loss. A few major bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi also resulted in extensive damage. While the Indians bled we were not spared either and had our own share of bomb blasts coinciding with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and continuing till date. In fact, we also experienced something that the Indians did not: sectarian violence that led the factions to even kill worshippers in mosques while praying.
We may blame 9/11 for turning the tables but things had started to deteriorate prior to that. The withdrawal from the Kargil heights in 1999 was seen by many in the Indian-held Kashmir as a great betrayal and broke the back of the freedom movement that was already experiencing immense difficulties. However, 9/11 forced Pakistan to discontinue `its moral, diplomatic and political support to the freedom fighters of Kashmir'. The attack on the Indian Parliament and the consequent belligerent reaction resulted in President Musharraf making his famous January 2002 speech renouncing and denouncing all support to terrorist outfits. Several mujahideen organisations were banned following that speech.
There is no turning back and it has been our continuous fate to bleed since. The freedom fighters and the mujahideen have apparently decided to first free themselves and us from the clutches of the American sponsored rulers before turning their attention to neighbouring states. Most of these outfits have an Islamic orientation and thus also inclined to attack Shiites. The situation is thus chaotic, to say the least as the unemployed freedom fighters are constantly looking for excuses to hit at the state while the Taliban on our western borders are consolidating themselves in the tribal areas and also practice target shooting on our troops.
The most ironical part of this whole development is the sizeable support that these militants enjoy throughout Pakistan, particularly in most parts of the Frontier Province and the tribal areas. It is thus almost a `catch-22' situation in that any move to crush the militants results in gearing more public sympathy for them. The fact that the whole exercise to oppose the Islamic militants is widely seen as an American sponsored ploy does not help matters.
The Lal Masjid fiasco must be seen in light of the above context. The Indians experienced such sieges a number of times in the Indian-held Kashmir. It was now our turn to bleed. Not everybody can operate a sub-machine gun as competently and professionally as the militants did at the Lal Masjid. They were obviously trained. Where were they trained? And by whom?
Pakistan also remains one of those few countries left where one can buy machine guns, grenades and anti-air craft guns especially from the tribal areas and even from rest of Pakistan as easily if one was purchasing detergents. Our intelligence agencies most of the time know the minutest details about the personal lives of our politicians and other relevant personalities, particularly those opposed to the rulers, but cannot seem to find out how sophisticated arms reached the mosque and the madressahs. No one could even tell till the end about the estimated number of militants, students, children and women holed-up in the mosque. This is nothing short of shocking and a shame as the crisis did not erupt suddenly and had been brewing since January this year. What were our agencies and the interior ministry personnel doing all this time?
It is for history and the public to judge as to how the crisis was handled. However, it became obvious to all that the country has no force and mechanism to deal with such situations. There are special forces constituted to control such eventualities in other countries. Special committees or task forces are automatically convened in such situations. We had none and the government did not even bother to call a meeting of the National Security Council in the midst of such an embarrassing quandary. We ended up doing what we always do in such situations: rely on the military. The civilians were nowhere in the picture.
The prime minister mercifully was not on a foreign tour but the interior minister was in Rome to advise the Afghans about improving law and order in their country, while the interior secretary was in Delhi to jointly control terrorism with the Indians. It did not matter that these two key personnel of the interior ministry were not in the country.
The army is not trained to conduct such rescue missions. Patience is the name of the game in such situations while the army usually employs brute power, coupled with tactics, to crush the enemy and this is exactly what we eventually witnessed. It is not the job of the army to negotiate; however, the terms of reference for such assignments in our country are inter-mingled anyway as almost one-third of our top-most diplomats posted abroad are former military generals.
There were no professionals available to negotiate on the government's behalf and the president of the ruling party ended up being the top negotiator. The militants within the Lal mosque till the end kept complaining that they had a hard time understanding Chaudhry Shujaat on the mega-phone and asked him to negotiate face to face; they should have known better. There was no one willing and available to represent the Government of Pakistan in front of these talibs, most of whom were probably in their twenties.
The irony is that nothing has changed even after this bitter experience. The whole world was being told for the past five years that the western media was unnecessarily maligning the madressahs that were rendering immense service. The Americans were rolling in millions of dollars to institutionalise madressahs and improve their system of functioning and they were led to believe that their dollars had turned these religious schools into nothing less than regular high schools in California. However, the fact that a school in the capital of Pakistan right under the noses of our rulers and intelligence agencies was armed to the teeth goes to show the level of inefficiency of our institutions.
The problem is that the world may like to write us off and may avoid us as if we have the plague. But we remain one of the major countries in terms of population and export of terrorism if even a small segment of the populace could prove to be nightmarish for the world. And what are those opposed to militancy and freedom fighting supposed to do in these circumstances? There may be millions in this world who did not clap when the twin towers collapsed in New York but did not clap either when the Americans bombed Iraq and Afghanistan back to the Stone Age? Where do these folks fit in this era of `enlightened moderation?'
The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: aneesjillani@yahoo.com
#988 Posted by muqaddam on July 22, 2007 5:54:51 am
#956
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
Are we looking at a communist revolution a-la-Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917?
#987 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 21, 2007 2:48:34 pm
#979 Posted by KaalChakra
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
[It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection?
:)]
This is music to the ears of the "liberals" - the JNU types and the Islamic apologists - It's 50-50 down the middle. It's eveybody's fault, everybody is
equally to blame.
Here's a dialogue between me and a Islamic Apologist (therefore intellectual) Indian :
Islamic Apologist: Everybody is equally just. Everybody shares the blame equally. Every ideology is equally good/bad. Naziism, Communism,
Fasciism, Non-violence, Shintoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. - all are equally bad or good. Everybody is equally to
blame...
Me: Oh really... Okay.... So let's see....
India - Hindus' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Thailand - Buddhists' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
China - Chinese govt's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Australia - Australian's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
UK - Britishers' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
USA - American's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Russia - Russians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Yugoslavia - Christians' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Spain - Spanish people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Israel - Jews' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Iran - Non-Muslims' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
France - French people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Netherlands - DUtch people's blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Germany - Germans' blame - 50%
Muslims' blame - 50%
Islamic Apologist: In any case, the only reason Muslims are the common denominator is because of the Mullahs - a recent phenomenon. But in the past,
starting from Muhammad's time, everything was VERY peaceful. You see, Islam is a religion of peace.
Me: A RECENT phenomenon? Can you give me a period of time in Islamic history starting from muhammad's time when there was any peace?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, that was because of the treacherous non-believers. They needed to be defeated, so some violence was necessary, and justified,
and sanctioned by Allah.
Me: Ah. I see, that's why this violence has never stopped. Because there are still treacherous non-believers left.
Islamic Apologist: Exactly!
Me: So why is this "necessary" violence any different from that of Hitler, Stalin etc.
Islamic Apologist: Ah! That's because Hitler, Stalin were not Allah's messengers.... That was an easy one...
Me: And WHO says that muhammad was an Allah's messenger?
Islamic Apologist: Oh, it's obvious from the message....
Me: Exactly WHICH part of which message in the Koran makes you think this way?
Islamic Apologist: Let's not get into specifics here. You sound like a hater....
Me: But that was just a simple question....
Islamic Apologist: Why are you such a HATER? How about YOUR religion? Rat-worshipper! Idolator! Pagan!
Me: Okay so I am a hater. But how about the question? Can I get an answer?
Islamic Apologist: Hater! Intolerant! Modi-follower! RSS suicide bomber! VHP member! Cow-piss drinker! Idolator!
Me: Ummm...okay...bye...
#986 Posted by foggy1 on July 21, 2007 9:20:39 am
what is the use of following events developing,with eyes wide open and brain fully geared to be able to arrive at a prognosis.and yet the end seems shocking.are we in a state of calculated denial.is there any room for mild and lenient thought?and hope. do you have any scientific methodology to guide and nip the horrific in the bud before it is too late? like it was recently qed
#984 Posted by philosopher on July 20, 2007 2:17:12 pm
Dedicated to CJ
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
UNhi ke faiz say bazara-i-aqal roushan hai
Jo gaahay ba gaahay janoon ikhtiaar kartay hain
#983 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:33:47 am
#981, tahmed, peon of the West, whether I "fetch samosas" according to your dimwit mentality, or "drive a cab in nyc", according to your friend Hamid, the fact is that I outsmart both you a-holes on Chowk, that is all the recognition I seek for the time being....
#981 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 10:23:55 am
#980 masadi: you write "I had predicted long before..."
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
You are so extremely smart!! Too bad the world does not recognize you genius, and has you running fetching samosas and tea for staff in Govt College, Mian Channu.
#980 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:16:15 am
I had predicted long before today's decision restoring the CJ to his office, that this crisis, manufactured by the Americans, using the Pakistan Army in order to punish Musharraf, will lead to its logical end, i.e. a decision against Musharraf. The fools among the people will say that this is a historic moment for Pakistan, something is changing and the Army is losing its authority. Wrong answer, and utopian dreams. The Army is still in charge, Musharraf is losing authority (two different things), because he has lost American support (the main difference between the two).
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...
#979 Posted by KaalChakra on July 20, 2007 10:00:41 am
tahmedji and Dash_Dot
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
It seems that the world is (almost) always fully just: we are totally just to others, and others are totally unjust to us. Why mess with this perfection? :)
#978 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 6:53:59 am
Dash_Dot: Maybe your stop watch is on Arab Standard Time. :-)
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
But agreed - chowk staff has I think done more harm than good with this format change. What is the point of having a south asian website if only people with broadband connections in the west can access it without undue wait!!
#977 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 20, 2007 5:48:14 am
#971 after I posted that reply to you, this damn page took 2.25 mins to load - which is a very long time. Damn Chowk Staff pliss do sometihng about this.
#975 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:39:33 am
#974 borivili_express of course. (at least that is what i understand, after skimming over borivili's post complaining about some indian muslims not getting their day in court or something).
#974 Posted by harish_hyd on July 20, 2007 5:33:00 am
#972 Posted by tahmed32
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining".
Whining? Who is doing it? Me, Kaal, or borivili_express?
#973 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:21:16 am
Supreme Court reinstates Chief Justice!!
Great day for all true Pakistanis!!
Very bad day for militarists, mullah hates, and pandit hates.
Great day for all true Pakistanis!!
Very bad day for militarists, mullah hates, and pandit hates.
#972 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:14:19 am
harish_hyd: Kaalchakra is too profound for you!! Permit me to be his interpreter: What Kaalchakra meant was: "Stop whining". (PS to Kaalchakra: Right boss?)
#971 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:12:28 am
Dash_Dot: Shouldnt you be helping plague victims rather than avoiding them?
#970 Posted by tahmed32 on July 20, 2007 5:11:11 am
Masadi: Why do you always cover your ass with to $$ signs? ("a$$"). An ass is a noble creature, works hard carrying bricks all day long in the hot sun. All it asks for is the right to bray a few times each day. It has nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be covered up with two $ signs.
#969 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 20, 2007 2:39:44 am
I have been avoiding FP like as if it has got the plague - since ever since the format change (damn it takes 3 mins to load this page for e.g), but this post by Wheel O time couldl not be resisted
#967 : KaalChakra borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims
Wheel O Time, you are being mischievious here by not stating your assumptions here, to arrive at this conclusion. Couldn't it be the other way round?
Again in 967: appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
Its an interesting vision/image here. Let us carry this forward - within the field are rings. Most of of these have a certain uniformity in them, and particles within these rings could be in brownian motion, but the rings themselves at a macro level donot exhibit this brownian motion, and as such you can assign uniform smooth properties to them. The problems arise when the brownian motion within a particular ring, escapes it and starts to input its unwanted energies into other rings. This upsets the field completely, in that the topology changes and usual metrics do not work. That is when the rings come together to constrain the rogue ring.
hhhhm! you have made an intersting analogy there!
#967 : KaalChakra borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims
Wheel O Time, you are being mischievious here by not stating your assumptions here, to arrive at this conclusion. Couldn't it be the other way round?
Again in 967: appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
Its an interesting vision/image here. Let us carry this forward - within the field are rings. Most of of these have a certain uniformity in them, and particles within these rings could be in brownian motion, but the rings themselves at a macro level donot exhibit this brownian motion, and as such you can assign uniform smooth properties to them. The problems arise when the brownian motion within a particular ring, escapes it and starts to input its unwanted energies into other rings. This upsets the field completely, in that the topology changes and usual metrics do not work. That is when the rings come together to constrain the rogue ring.
hhhhm! you have made an intersting analogy there!
#968 Posted by harish_hyd on July 20, 2007 2:07:46 am
#967 by KaalChakra
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Why do you say that Kaal bhai?
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Why do you say that Kaal bhai?
#967 Posted by KaalChakra on July 20, 2007 1:53:58 am
PM
Just thinking aloud here, in the domain of ideas, might it not be more appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
iron bhai,
Perfectly totalitarian systems exist. There are, have been, many of them in theory, in vision. In practice, in actual REALITY, no social system can be perfectly totalitarian. And on Chowk, that what is "real" has always been a matter of dispute. Everybody can be right by simply redefining "real" for their own selves.
--------------------
Jang Singh, masadi is totally right on this one. One deceives oneself in expecting to raise architectural marvels on foundations of sand. Hindus will never get this because they dogmatically hold that all mitti is exactly the same (except in appearance) and that sand simply does not exist.
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
Just thinking aloud here, in the domain of ideas, might it not be more appropriate to speak of our world as a field of war rather than a marketplace?
iron bhai,
Perfectly totalitarian systems exist. There are, have been, many of them in theory, in vision. In practice, in actual REALITY, no social system can be perfectly totalitarian. And on Chowk, that what is "real" has always been a matter of dispute. Everybody can be right by simply redefining "real" for their own selves.
--------------------
Jang Singh, masadi is totally right on this one. One deceives oneself in expecting to raise architectural marvels on foundations of sand. Hindus will never get this because they dogmatically hold that all mitti is exactly the same (except in appearance) and that sand simply does not exist.
borivili_express, Hindus will never be fair to Muslims.
#966 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 20, 2007 12:57:33 am
Re: #965
Well, what's stopping you from heading west for the land of the pure? Eh?
Jinnah was right. Go to Pakiland. If you really want democracy and justice.
Go now. Go. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Well, what's stopping you from heading west for the land of the pure? Eh?
Jinnah was right. Go to Pakiland. If you really want democracy and justice.
Go now. Go. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
#965 Posted by borivili_express on July 20, 2007 12:49:25 am
Indian/Hindu Democracy in action:
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
Driven to despair
20 Jul 2007, 0030 hrs IST,Jyoti Punwani
SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.
Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.
Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.
Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.
Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.
The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.
Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.
Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.
They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.
Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?
Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.
The writer is a political commentator.
The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India
Driven to despair
20 Jul 2007, 0030 hrs IST,Jyoti Punwani
SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.
Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.
Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.
Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.
Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.
The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.
Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.
Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.
They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.
Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?
Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.
The writer is a political commentator.
#964 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 12:24:10 am
Philo "Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'"
Typical political "covering your a$$" statement by Tony Snow. Obama doesn't rule out military action against Iran either, all options are "on the table" and other such BS so that the opponents don't use your "diplomatic" answer to take it as a sign of weakness, especially when you've conditioned your base to support you on your tough stand in a (contrived) "war on terror". There is nothing new in this assertion, they have already been violating Pakistani borders to pursue civilian "women and children" targets.
If the Pakistani Army was not America's occupation force, now would be a good time to sell the F-16s to North Korea and use that money to buy the latest air defense systems from Russia and knock the predators right out of our "Third World" sky...
Typical political "covering your a$$" statement by Tony Snow. Obama doesn't rule out military action against Iran either, all options are "on the table" and other such BS so that the opponents don't use your "diplomatic" answer to take it as a sign of weakness, especially when you've conditioned your base to support you on your tough stand in a (contrived) "war on terror". There is nothing new in this assertion, they have already been violating Pakistani borders to pursue civilian "women and children" targets.
If the Pakistani Army was not America's occupation force, now would be a good time to sell the F-16s to North Korea and use that money to buy the latest air defense systems from Russia and knock the predators right out of our "Third World" sky...
#963 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 12:19:22 am
Jang "so if you idolate, but otherwise lead a fruitful life, maybe hold a day-job, and invent cure for cancer, then what is bad? also, is belief in god also wrong? if an idol is not "truth" what about the god guy? then offcourse there are all the beliefs in messages etc..is believing in them also unnatural? "
Look Einstein, if you believe in a lie that guides your life, regardless of the day jobs you hold, your life is spent chasing a lie, its a narrow life. Regarding the "god guy", do you not get the part in my post about "truth and fact"? Going against truth and fact is injustice. Justice is not "some", it is all or none. Comprendey?
Look Einstein, if you believe in a lie that guides your life, regardless of the day jobs you hold, your life is spent chasing a lie, its a narrow life. Regarding the "god guy", do you not get the part in my post about "truth and fact"? Going against truth and fact is injustice. Justice is not "some", it is all or none. Comprendey?
#962 Posted by majumdar on July 19, 2007 8:46:41 pm
Ahmedmadani sahib,
Re#961
Spoken like a true patriot, sir.
Maulana Zeemax (RA)
(Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. )
The only ones getting slaughtered are ordinary footsoldiers and innocent civilian bystanders. The generals and the intellectuals are all freaking out.
Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),
(How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan. )
In Punjab and Sind the result would indeed be different becuase the people here are cowards. Yes, NWFP/B'stan would be a different matter.
Regards
Re#961
Spoken like a true patriot, sir.
Maulana Zeemax (RA)
(Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. )
The only ones getting slaughtered are ordinary footsoldiers and innocent civilian bystanders. The generals and the intellectuals are all freaking out.
Maulana Urstruly (pbuh),
(How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan. )
In Punjab and Sind the result would indeed be different becuase the people here are cowards. Yes, NWFP/B'stan would be a different matter.
Regards
#961 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 19, 2007 6:57:40 pm
All good people here like Zeemax who are are betterment of pakistan should KINDLY moderate their view for sake of general welfare. Internal fighting only damages people and nation and peaceful way need to be praised. CJ is good man but he is misguided by political people who hate president.
In given situation where many ( hundreds) have died in less than week including soldiers and luckly chinese engineers survived from attack near Karachi (hub) elections will lead to more termoil and secterian violence and large crowds means easy target for terrorists who want to damage pakistan will be better to be called of for immediate future say 2 years. When things improve elections can take place even earlier. There are lots of foreign powers who want to weaken president such as India, usa, UK, Britain, Canada, Australia and Isarel only China is standing by pakistan and putting its citizen in danger to complete projects they have started. From time of "CJ" trouble Indian activity by their diplomats is getting brisk as well as in border area with A.Stan. In such situation even our friend such as S.Arabia, USA, China, UAE and IRan as suggesting postponeent of elections. Let us hope this election fever goes down and things return to normal. Everybody is sad for deaths in Mosque but what was left for general to do. Whatever he does people criticize them. Some time violence goes up when such things happen but things cool down if leaders behave properly. When Mr. Bugti Sr was killed in fight for few days violence peaked but not gas pipelines, electic towers, railway are working properly and "B.Stan" problem is in control. If people give chance to president for next 2 years he can beat terrorist in their game. If terrorist feel they want to use terror tactics then govt can do same but general do not like that but he wants to talk and solve problems. Question is are people read to give 2 years to president till he clean up maess and then we can have Farce of election. People should now help govt to bring stability.
In given situation where many ( hundreds) have died in less than week including soldiers and luckly chinese engineers survived from attack near Karachi (hub) elections will lead to more termoil and secterian violence and large crowds means easy target for terrorists who want to damage pakistan will be better to be called of for immediate future say 2 years. When things improve elections can take place even earlier. There are lots of foreign powers who want to weaken president such as India, usa, UK, Britain, Canada, Australia and Isarel only China is standing by pakistan and putting its citizen in danger to complete projects they have started. From time of "CJ" trouble Indian activity by their diplomats is getting brisk as well as in border area with A.Stan. In such situation even our friend such as S.Arabia, USA, China, UAE and IRan as suggesting postponeent of elections. Let us hope this election fever goes down and things return to normal. Everybody is sad for deaths in Mosque but what was left for general to do. Whatever he does people criticize them. Some time violence goes up when such things happen but things cool down if leaders behave properly. When Mr. Bugti Sr was killed in fight for few days violence peaked but not gas pipelines, electic towers, railway are working properly and "B.Stan" problem is in control. If people give chance to president for next 2 years he can beat terrorist in their game. If terrorist feel they want to use terror tactics then govt can do same but general do not like that but he wants to talk and solve problems. Question is are people read to give 2 years to president till he clean up maess and then we can have Farce of election. People should now help govt to bring stability.
#960 Posted by philosopher on July 19, 2007 3:39:03 pm
US military action possible inside Pakistan: US
WASHINGTON: The White House on Thursday refused to rule out striking at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan and would not say whether US forces would first seek permission from Islamabad.
Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'
Asked whether Bush would first seek authorization from Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, Snow told reporters, 'Those are matters that are best not discussed publicly.'
Washington in recent days has sharply criticized Musharraf's truce with leaders in Pakistan's tribal areas, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were believed hiding, calling on him to take aggressive military action.
And Bush's top counter-terrorism adviser at the White House recently suggested that the United States did not get all of the cooperation it hoped for from Pakistan in the global war on terrorism.
At the same time, the White House has been praising Musharraf personally.
'President Musharraf has put his life on the line and has been a very important ally in the war on terror,' Snow said as Bush travelled here to make remarks on the federal budget.
'It's also clear that Taliban and al Qaeda, in the northwest territories and the federally administered tribal areas, have begun to put on operations that threaten the government of Pakistan itself,' he added.
'President Musharraf, having tried one approach, in terms of dealing with the tribal leaders, is now going to have to be more aggressive and is being more aggressive moving forces into the region to deal with the security problems there,' he said.
WASHINGTON: The White House on Thursday refused to rule out striking at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan and would not say whether US forces would first seek permission from Islamabad.
Asked whether US President George W Bush had ruled out US military action inside Pakistan, spokesman Tony Snow replied: 'We never rule out any options, including striking actionable targets.'
Asked whether Bush would first seek authorization from Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, Snow told reporters, 'Those are matters that are best not discussed publicly.'
Washington in recent days has sharply criticized Musharraf's truce with leaders in Pakistan's tribal areas, where Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were believed hiding, calling on him to take aggressive military action.
And Bush's top counter-terrorism adviser at the White House recently suggested that the United States did not get all of the cooperation it hoped for from Pakistan in the global war on terrorism.
At the same time, the White House has been praising Musharraf personally.
'President Musharraf has put his life on the line and has been a very important ally in the war on terror,' Snow said as Bush travelled here to make remarks on the federal budget.
'It's also clear that Taliban and al Qaeda, in the northwest territories and the federally administered tribal areas, have begun to put on operations that threaten the government of Pakistan itself,' he added.
'President Musharraf, having tried one approach, in terms of dealing with the tribal leaders, is now going to have to be more aggressive and is being more aggressive moving forces into the region to deal with the security problems there,' he said.
#958 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 3:00:49 pm
#956 Posted by echoboom,
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
I don't know how far ahead Iqbal saw, and how, and what remains to be seen of his vision.
You were right. He was touched by Gabriel's wing.
But there will be a lot of bloodshed. I wonder if it could have been avoided. Or was it fate?
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
I don't know how far ahead Iqbal saw, and how, and what remains to be seen of his vision.
You were right. He was touched by Gabriel's wing.
But there will be a lot of bloodshed. I wonder if it could have been avoided. Or was it fate?
#957 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:55:51 pm
#955 Posted by Urstruly,
Urstruly, it saddens me to no end. I actually have close, learned, intellectual friends who had said Lal Masjid issue will be finished in 72 hours when their refrigeration runs out ... while they were eating tree leaves in there for a week.
They didn't even have a clue of what it was all about ....
Urstruly, it saddens me to no end. I actually have close, learned, intellectual friends who had said Lal Masjid issue will be finished in 72 hours when their refrigeration runs out ... while they were eating tree leaves in there for a week.
They didn't even have a clue of what it was all about ....
#956 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 12:47:43 pm
SECULARO! mard-i-mujaahid sey naa Uuljhho..DaikhO!
Haath mazloom kaa shamsheer tak aa pohnchaa hai
The"elite", the good-life-charlies' time has come. These were the Haraamis who either co-operated with the British or were upset at the Freedom fighters for disturbing their hollowed-our, termite-eaten, aristocracy.
No wonder we are ruled by Uniformed Kuttaaas and un-informed
burRvayCats.
A revolution is an eartquake, it turns things upside down. The servants son shall be your master and your son will polish his shoes. The Ba Ba Blacksheep must be shorn of their wool and for a change must know what winters are like. The toataa-mainaas must be let out of their air-conditioned suites & trained anew to make do with crumbs.
Every servant farmer labourer must be encouraged to turn on against their westoxicated huDD-haraam corrupt masters.
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
tr:
The time when People themselves shall rule..has come
Wherever you see any sign of the old-order..erase it!
Haath mazloom kaa shamsheer tak aa pohnchaa hai
The"elite", the good-life-charlies' time has come. These were the Haraamis who either co-operated with the British or were upset at the Freedom fighters for disturbing their hollowed-our, termite-eaten, aristocracy.
No wonder we are ruled by Uniformed Kuttaaas and un-informed
burRvayCats.
A revolution is an eartquake, it turns things upside down. The servants son shall be your master and your son will polish his shoes. The Ba Ba Blacksheep must be shorn of their wool and for a change must know what winters are like. The toataa-mainaas must be let out of their air-conditioned suites & trained anew to make do with crumbs.
Every servant farmer labourer must be encouraged to turn on against their westoxicated huDD-haraam corrupt masters.
"Sultaani-e-Jamhoor kaa aataa hai zamaana
Jo naqsh-i-kuh'n tuum ko nazar aaey..mitaa doa!".
............................................ ALLAMA Iqbal
tr:
The time when People themselves shall rule..has come
Wherever you see any sign of the old-order..erase it!
#954 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 11:23:30 am
The Fedayeen march is on towards settled areas. Those bastards and westoxicated intellectuals who didn't believe me when I said if they touch a single burqa-clad, they will be slaughtered. In the end these bastards ended up killing over a thousand of them.
Now, they will not spare ANYONE who supported that action.
Now, they will not spare ANYONE who supported that action.
#955 Posted by Urstruly on July 19, 2007 12:03:58 pm
Re: # 954
It is horrible that Na-Pak fouj's personnel all over Pakistan had been ordered not to wear uniform in public. It also seems like a separate force will be required to protect police from people now. I think these madarchod munafiq intellectuals did not learn any leasson from Iraq where ordinary people of Iraq have made monkeys out of the collosal war machinery of the West; same thing in Afghanistan. I don't know what the fuck they were thinking when they carried out the school masacre in Islamabad. How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is horrible that Na-Pak fouj's personnel all over Pakistan had been ordered not to wear uniform in public. It also seems like a separate force will be required to protect police from people now. I think these madarchod munafiq intellectuals did not learn any leasson from Iraq where ordinary people of Iraq have made monkeys out of the collosal war machinery of the West; same thing in Afghanistan. I don't know what the fuck they were thinking when they carried out the school masacre in Islamabad. How did they contemplate that the results would be any different from Iraq and Afghanistan.
#953 Posted by jang on July 19, 2007 11:14:06 am
#952 ok...let me rephrase. so if you idolate, but otherwise lead a fruitful life, maybe hold a day-job, and invent cure for cancer, then what is bad? also, is belief in god also wrong? if an idol is not "truth" what about the god guy? then offcourse there are all the beliefs in messages etc..is believing in them also unnatural?
#952 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 10:50:19 am
Jang writes "masadi,
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? "
Yes I can explain it, it is an outrage against truth and fact. If you do not align yourself with the fact and the truth out there, your entire life is spent chasing a lie, your development is stunted, in other words your lifestyle is unnatural
Zeemax "power grab"
It does not reflect too well on the community of believers if dissent on the control of a community results moments after the death of the messenger so much that his final rites were not even completed. If that is what happened it sure could have been handled better by the "elders". It is far from the "best example" you were presenting it as...
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? "
Yes I can explain it, it is an outrage against truth and fact. If you do not align yourself with the fact and the truth out there, your entire life is spent chasing a lie, your development is stunted, in other words your lifestyle is unnatural
Zeemax "power grab"
It does not reflect too well on the community of believers if dissent on the control of a community results moments after the death of the messenger so much that his final rites were not even completed. If that is what happened it sure could have been handled better by the "elders". It is far from the "best example" you were presenting it as...
#951 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 8:49:54 am
MaashaAllah!
Time to drag the Ata-SECULARROON out of his slumber & do a Mussolini on him. The bastard freemason, enemy of scholars of Islam: the mullahs, Muslims & Islam.
This could not be more timely for Pakistan. The Koochak-i-SECULAROON , the Parvaaz-i Murtaddon, will InshaAllah, soon die, what else, a dogs death.
___________________________________________________________
Turkish ruling party looks set for big election win
Thu 19 Jul 2007, 13:56 GMT
By Paul de Bendern
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's ruling Islamist-rooted AK Party looks on course to win enough votes on Sunday to govern alone again in an election that has divided the country over religion's role in a secular state.
An opinion poll published on Thursday showed them winning 42.6 percent and only two other parties entering parliament -- the main opposition centre-left Republican People's Party with 17.3 percent and the far-right Nationalist Movement Party on 12.5 percent.
"It's clear sailing. Even (Prime Minister Tayyip) Erdogan has gone out on a limb saying he'll resign if his party doesn't return as a single-party government," Semih Idiz, a leading Turkish commentator, told Reuters.
Turkish stocks and bond prices rose and the lira firmed after the survey by the Konda polling agency and two other polls reinforced expectations the AK Party was set for another landslide victory.
Investors like the party's free-market policies but fear too large a majority could reignite tensions with the secularists, including a powerful army suspicious of AK Party intentions.
The armed forces have removed four governments in the past 50 years, including an Islamist government as recently as 1997.
A divided Turkey now faces a choice -- the pro-business centre-right AK Party with a background in political Islam, or its opponents determined to keep decades-old secular principles.
Earlier this year during a crisis over the presidential election the military pledged to intervene in politics if Turkey's secular principles were threatened. A series of mass anti-AK Party rallies also increased tensions.
The Konda survey gave the AK Party a share of the vote several percentage points higher than in 2002, though due to a more unified opposition this would give them 310 to 340 seats in the 550-member parliament -- down from 352 now.
PRESIDENT ROW
Most recent polls show the same three parties clearing the 10 percent national threshold for winning seats in parliament. Up to 35 independents, mostly pro-Kurdish candidates, are also likely to enter the new parliament, the latest poll said.
Erdogan's AK Party has presided over nearly five years of strong economic growth, falling inflation and the historic launch of now floundering European Union membership talks.
His party is seeking to portray itself as moderate and centrist, but is deeply distrusted by the elite, including powerful army generals and top judges, for its Islamist roots and efforts to ease restrictions on Islam such as a ban on women wearing headscarves at universities and state institutions.
Erdogan was forced to call the parliamentary election months early after a clash with the secular elite over his party's choice of presidential candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, like him an ex-Islamist and whose wife also wears a headscarf.
The AK Party still prefers Gul as the next president.
Critically for the secularists -- and for financial markets closely watching the election -- the latest poll shows the AK Party still falling short of a two-thirds majority needed to impose its own presidential candidate or alter the constitution.
Analysts expect renewed political tensions when parliament reconvenes to appoint a new president. The president carries great symbolic weight in Turkey because the post was first held by the founder of the republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Outgoing secularist President Ahmet Necdet Sezer has been a fierce critic of Erdogan and frequently blocked legislation.
The opposition accuses the ruling party of seeking to turn Turkey into an Iranian-style system, a charge it denies. However, many AK Party supporters hope a second term will bring reforms to make life easier for devout Muslim Turks.
"If they get around 40 percent then it will be a validation of sorts, especially after millions took to the streets to protest in defence of secularism and against the AK Party, and the opposition didn't get into power," said commentator Idiz.
(Additional reporting by Gareth Jones in Ankara)
Time to drag the Ata-SECULARROON out of his slumber & do a Mussolini on him. The bastard freemason, enemy of scholars of Islam: the mullahs, Muslims & Islam.
This could not be more timely for Pakistan. The Koochak-i-SECULAROON , the Parvaaz-i Murtaddon, will InshaAllah, soon die, what else, a dogs death.
___________________________________________________________
Turkish ruling party looks set for big election win
Thu 19 Jul 2007, 13:56 GMT
By Paul de Bendern
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's ruling Islamist-rooted AK Party looks on course to win enough votes on Sunday to govern alone again in an election that has divided the country over religion's role in a secular state.
An opinion poll published on Thursday showed them winning 42.6 percent and only two other parties entering parliament -- the main opposition centre-left Republican People's Party with 17.3 percent and the far-right Nationalist Movement Party on 12.5 percent.
"It's clear sailing. Even (Prime Minister Tayyip) Erdogan has gone out on a limb saying he'll resign if his party doesn't return as a single-party government," Semih Idiz, a leading Turkish commentator, told Reuters.
Turkish stocks and bond prices rose and the lira firmed after the survey by the Konda polling agency and two other polls reinforced expectations the AK Party was set for another landslide victory.
Investors like the party's free-market policies but fear too large a majority could reignite tensions with the secularists, including a powerful army suspicious of AK Party intentions.
The armed forces have removed four governments in the past 50 years, including an Islamist government as recently as 1997.
A divided Turkey now faces a choice -- the pro-business centre-right AK Party with a background in political Islam, or its opponents determined to keep decades-old secular principles.
Earlier this year during a crisis over the presidential election the military pledged to intervene in politics if Turkey's secular principles were threatened. A series of mass anti-AK Party rallies also increased tensions.
The Konda survey gave the AK Party a share of the vote several percentage points higher than in 2002, though due to a more unified opposition this would give them 310 to 340 seats in the 550-member parliament -- down from 352 now.
PRESIDENT ROW
Most recent polls show the same three parties clearing the 10 percent national threshold for winning seats in parliament. Up to 35 independents, mostly pro-Kurdish candidates, are also likely to enter the new parliament, the latest poll said.
Erdogan's AK Party has presided over nearly five years of strong economic growth, falling inflation and the historic launch of now floundering European Union membership talks.
His party is seeking to portray itself as moderate and centrist, but is deeply distrusted by the elite, including powerful army generals and top judges, for its Islamist roots and efforts to ease restrictions on Islam such as a ban on women wearing headscarves at universities and state institutions.
Erdogan was forced to call the parliamentary election months early after a clash with the secular elite over his party's choice of presidential candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, like him an ex-Islamist and whose wife also wears a headscarf.
The AK Party still prefers Gul as the next president.
Critically for the secularists -- and for financial markets closely watching the election -- the latest poll shows the AK Party still falling short of a two-thirds majority needed to impose its own presidential candidate or alter the constitution.
Analysts expect renewed political tensions when parliament reconvenes to appoint a new president. The president carries great symbolic weight in Turkey because the post was first held by the founder of the republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Outgoing secularist President Ahmet Necdet Sezer has been a fierce critic of Erdogan and frequently blocked legislation.
The opposition accuses the ruling party of seeking to turn Turkey into an Iranian-style system, a charge it denies. However, many AK Party supporters hope a second term will bring reforms to make life easier for devout Muslim Turks.
"If they get around 40 percent then it will be a validation of sorts, especially after millions took to the streets to protest in defence of secularism and against the AK Party, and the opposition didn't get into power," said commentator Idiz.
(Additional reporting by Gareth Jones in Ankara)
#950 Posted by jang on July 19, 2007 8:48:17 am
masadi,
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? and if the massage and the massager were both so important, why did lal masjidis become upset with the chinese massager? does it have something to do with the final massage concept that the chinese massager were abducted?
can you esplane what is so wrong with idolatory? and if the massage and the massager were both so important, why did lal masjidis become upset with the chinese massager? does it have something to do with the final massage concept that the chinese massager were abducted?
#949 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 7:49:28 am
Khaak-i-beemar:
Even if grammatically you were wrong , still saqam means anomaly in arabic...there is no connection or sense.
In farsi grammar this anomaly is called shut'r-gurba ( combining two words of different languages & creating confusion)
Even if grammatically you were wrong , still saqam means anomaly in arabic...there is no connection or sense.
In farsi grammar this anomaly is called shut'r-gurba ( combining two words of different languages & creating confusion)
#948 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 19, 2007 6:59:08 am
I was going the Arabic way. khaak e Beemari was such a travesty. I had to. I'd expected the torch bearer of mashriqiyat (whatever that means) on here, to know the civilized way of cussing out. What's that verse on Allah putting a seal on hearts and minds of the ones He Willed to go astray from the True path. Now, that's a killer. A real one.
#947 Posted by echoboom on July 19, 2007 6:41:26 am
946:Khaak-i-beemaar
..."I figure, someone should get...."
_________________________________________________________
that "someone" word should get you off the hook...Haaa Haaa Haa
1. KhAAK AND SAQAM cannot be joined as a tarkeeb
2. Saqam does not even come close in meaning to what you are implying.
3. I checked the farhanG already
unless of course you do have an insider :)))...I'm never too old to learn.
..."I figure, someone should get...."
_________________________________________________________
that "someone" word should get you off the hook...Haaa Haaa Haa
1. KhAAK AND SAQAM cannot be joined as a tarkeeb
2. Saqam does not even come close in meaning to what you are implying.
3. I checked the farhanG already
unless of course you do have an insider :)))...I'm never too old to learn.
#946 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 19, 2007 6:23:50 am
echoboom: "khaak e beemari" hahaha. Hazrat, that would be khaak-e-saqam to khaak-e-shifa in Urdu proper. I figure, someone should get into a Taleem-e-BaalighaaN/Adult Ed. for an Urdu-e-Mua'lla program at a nearby Madrassah or maybe it's too already late for that. I dunno.
#945 Posted by Chennai on July 19, 2007 6:04:45 am
#944 Posted by arjun2
It looks like Land of the Pure is getting ready for the final purification rites....Courtesy Uncle Sam who has pumped in 5 Billion $ and wants results..now..
It looks like Land of the Pure is getting ready for the final purification rites....Courtesy Uncle Sam who has pumped in 5 Billion $ and wants results..now..
#944 Posted by arjun2 on July 19, 2007 4:33:58 am
what's going in in the land of allah's chosen people? 36 dead in a suicide bombing...America getting ready to clean up the jihadi rathole all by itself..
#943 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 2:05:22 am
#941 Posted by masadi,
...which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
What power grab? There would just have been TWO powers instead of one if the matter had gone unattended. One of Quraish and the other of Ansaars, and TWO Caliphs, one of each. Everyone would have gone home happy.
It was to prevent a split, and not to grab any power because each already had their own power.
...which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
What power grab? There would just have been TWO powers instead of one if the matter had gone unattended. One of Quraish and the other of Ansaars, and TWO Caliphs, one of each. Everyone would have gone home happy.
It was to prevent a split, and not to grab any power because each already had their own power.
#942 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:59:23 am
#941#935 Posted by masadi,
Yaar masadi bhai, aap ki baat smajh sey bahar hai.
Mian, the 'message' had been completed. The 'messenger' was dead. Nothing more was to descend via him. It was vital at that time to preserve the 'completed' message and not have dissention in the ranks. Therefore they delayed the burial and attended to fire-fighting instead. Read the complete account/speeches of that particular incident.
Beher haal ..
(P.S. Thanks for adding 'fool' to the various acronyms you have blessed me with ... :)
Yaar masadi bhai, aap ki baat smajh sey bahar hai.
Mian, the 'message' had been completed. The 'messenger' was dead. Nothing more was to descend via him. It was vital at that time to preserve the 'completed' message and not have dissention in the ranks. Therefore they delayed the burial and attended to fire-fighting instead. Read the complete account/speeches of that particular incident.
Beher haal ..
(P.S. Thanks for adding 'fool' to the various acronyms you have blessed me with ... :)
#941 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 1:36:23 am
PM, I was talking about GEO, why I think that it is the CIA medial outpost in Pakistan is listed in previous interacts.
Regarding idolatory, anyone who associates another with Allah is an idolator. If you consider the words of humans to be of greater authority than the words of Allah, you're an idolator. Regarding the messenger, I didn't say the message is the messenger, the Book can be a messenger but the messenger is the one who conveys the message. The prophet was dead, according to that discription, but leaving the dead body as it was and rushing out to other tasks amounts to rushing out and neglecting the prophet at that moment, i.e not seeking his leave. Consider how it would appear if your father had died was lying out in the open ready for burial and you run off to tend to other works, which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
Regarding idolatory, anyone who associates another with Allah is an idolator. If you consider the words of humans to be of greater authority than the words of Allah, you're an idolator. Regarding the messenger, I didn't say the message is the messenger, the Book can be a messenger but the messenger is the one who conveys the message. The prophet was dead, according to that discription, but leaving the dead body as it was and rushing out to other tasks amounts to rushing out and neglecting the prophet at that moment, i.e not seeking his leave. Consider how it would appear if your father had died was lying out in the open ready for burial and you run off to tend to other works, which in this case happens to be a "power grab".
#940 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 19, 2007 1:28:07 am
Hey masadi, I just found out that some of the top nuclear physicists have realized that the koran contains the "Theory or Everything" in coded form. Apparently some flying djinn provided them this info.
But you knew this already.
But you knew this already.
#939 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:07:28 am
#934 Posted by PM,
PM, the attack was not on the CJ, though everyone is now trying to make political capital out of it. The attack was on PPP. CJ was not in the premises and had the bomber waited half an hour (it was indeed a bomber and not a timed device as lawyers are claiming), he would have got CJ's motorcade. He didn't. He blew up PPP's reception counter. Of-course you know these things are planned and timed with precision.
PM, the attack was not on the CJ, though everyone is now trying to make political capital out of it. The attack was on PPP. CJ was not in the premises and had the bomber waited half an hour (it was indeed a bomber and not a timed device as lawyers are claiming), he would have got CJ's motorcade. He didn't. He blew up PPP's reception counter. Of-course you know these things are planned and timed with precision.
#938 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 1:01:32 am
#931 Posted by PM re. Zee 914:
My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'. Do you disagree?
Whether their cause is better served by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom' depends on the peculiar circumstances of a battle, and that is the choice the warriors are confronted with and one they have to decide.
In case of Jamia Hafsa, it is my opinion that they decided on both choices in equal proportions. Approx half came out to fight another day, and half chose martyrdom to become a symbol of the movement and a rallying cry. That seems like a sound strategy to me under the circumstances.
If all had been killed or all had surrendered, their message would have been significantly weakened. In the first scenario, they would have been declared terrorists and/or renegades and/or cultists with no-one to tell or carry forward the true story. In the second scenario, they would have been painted as cowards having been 'smoked' out.
My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'. Do you disagree?
Whether their cause is better served by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom' depends on the peculiar circumstances of a battle, and that is the choice the warriors are confronted with and one they have to decide.
In case of Jamia Hafsa, it is my opinion that they decided on both choices in equal proportions. Approx half came out to fight another day, and half chose martyrdom to become a symbol of the movement and a rallying cry. That seems like a sound strategy to me under the circumstances.
If all had been killed or all had surrendered, their message would have been significantly weakened. In the first scenario, they would have been declared terrorists and/or renegades and/or cultists with no-one to tell or carry forward the true story. In the second scenario, they would have been painted as cowards having been 'smoked' out.
#937 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 1:00:53 am
re. masadi #936
"Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran,"
Yaar masadi, sometimes you surprise me with your uneasonableness. Wasn't the Messenger already dead at this point when the sahaba left to put out the fire at the Ansaar meeting place? As per your own elucidation, the Rasool is actaully the message, not the person. Can there be a message embodied in a dead Messenger???
Idolator is a strong word. Humans are suspect to blurring the line between message and messenger. That doesn't make them bad, except when the message is relegated or obscured.
I'm outta here... be back in about 12 hrs.
"Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran,"
Yaar masadi, sometimes you surprise me with your uneasonableness. Wasn't the Messenger already dead at this point when the sahaba left to put out the fire at the Ansaar meeting place? As per your own elucidation, the Rasool is actaully the message, not the person. Can there be a message embodied in a dead Messenger???
Idolator is a strong word. Humans are suspect to blurring the line between message and messenger. That doesn't make them bad, except when the message is relegated or obscured.
I'm outta here... be back in about 12 hrs.
#936 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:51:26 am
waisaey, masadi, you claimed a while ago that Hamid Mir was an American agent. Are you still of that opinion. What are the reasons you say that?
#935 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 12:47:34 am
Zeemax writes "I cannot come up with a better set of rules than when Muhammad's body was lying unburied, and the Quraish had gathered in the Masjid-e-Nabvi awaiting the next Caliph's appointment, and word reached that the Ansaar were preparing to name their own Caliph ... Abu Bakr, Umar and Abu Ubaida had rushed to the Ansaar's meeting place leaving everything aside. If they hadn't done that, Islam would be dead at Muhammad's death. There would have been civil war"
Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran, and rightly so the Shias have accused them of power grab- whether they did that or not is up for debate. Nevertheless Islam was not saved by people, it was distorted by people. Allah has established his system both in the heavens and on earth, mankind rejects it does not mean it is finished or destroyed, never has it been destroyed, not before the prophet(when it certainly existed, read the Quran fool), not after the prophet either...
Note here that this is why I consider Zeemax an idolator. He sees the decision and works of men as being "better" to the words of Allah in the Quran. In fact the Quran talks specifically to believers not to rush out from the presence of the messenger without seeking his leave, "seeking the chance goods of the world". This behavior which he has attributed to the sahaba goes completely contrary to those statements of the Quran, and rightly so the Shias have accused them of power grab- whether they did that or not is up for debate. Nevertheless Islam was not saved by people, it was distorted by people. Allah has established his system both in the heavens and on earth, mankind rejects it does not mean it is finished or destroyed, never has it been destroyed, not before the prophet(when it certainly existed, read the Quran fool), not after the prophet either...
#934 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:45:12 am
re. #925 Zeemax:
Zee, I got down the page and read the first half of the article (my urdu reading is s-l-o-w, having not read much since FSC days).
Khair, I agree with Mir's basic thesis, that there is a disconnect between the two parties to the conflict, though I don't care much for his labelling the Mushy-supporters as 'roshan khayaaloN"-- many of them are anything BUT!
An aside... was watching his program on GEO an hour ago... he had a judge and a PPP spokesperson on... interestingly, both seemed to suggest that the attack on the PPP welcoming camp was most likely NOT a suicide bombing, and that the target was quite possibly the CJ himself, who, had things gone according to schedule, would have probably been present at the very site of the blast when it took place... So you know where the finger is being pointed... interesting...
Zee, I got down the page and read the first half of the article (my urdu reading is s-l-o-w, having not read much since FSC days).
Khair, I agree with Mir's basic thesis, that there is a disconnect between the two parties to the conflict, though I don't care much for his labelling the Mushy-supporters as 'roshan khayaaloN"-- many of them are anything BUT!
An aside... was watching his program on GEO an hour ago... he had a judge and a PPP spokesperson on... interestingly, both seemed to suggest that the attack on the PPP welcoming camp was most likely NOT a suicide bombing, and that the target was quite possibly the CJ himself, who, had things gone according to schedule, would have probably been present at the very site of the blast when it took place... So you know where the finger is being pointed... interesting...
#933 Posted by zeemax on July 19, 2007 12:43:50 am
#931 Posted by PM,
Here is the link. It is by Hamid Mir. It is about the e-mail he received from Iman Yousuf, a girl-student of an English Medium School near the Chineses massage parlour, who was the one who complained to Ghazi about the parlour's activities. It also gives the contents of an SMS from a surviving girl who was pursuaded by Umme-Hassaan to leave on 6th July.
http://ejang.jang.com.pk/jm/7-19-2007/images/05_05.gif
(You may have to log in, but try.)
Here is the link. It is by Hamid Mir. It is about the e-mail he received from Iman Yousuf, a girl-student of an English Medium School near the Chineses massage parlour, who was the one who complained to Ghazi about the parlour's activities. It also gives the contents of an SMS from a surviving girl who was pursuaded by Umme-Hassaan to leave on 6th July.
http://ejang.jang.com.pk/jm/7-19-2007/images/05_05.gif
(You may have to log in, but try.)
#932 Posted by masadi on July 19, 2007 12:41:37 am
Zeemax writes "I don't thing masadi is a Muslim BTW. I have come to believe he's waiting for some Mehdi like our friend 'Number' here. "
What you think is immaterial, what Allah thinks regarding my Islam is what matters. Btw I think you're a total idolator, who uses Islamic slogans while having little to no knowledge of what its all about. Also I don't believe in the Mahdi concept, its extra-Quranic through and through, manufactured hadith believers like yourself, are the ones who have borrowed that from Christianity and Judaism and tried to force it unto Islam through the hadith factory...
What you think is immaterial, what Allah thinks regarding my Islam is what matters. Btw I think you're a total idolator, who uses Islamic slogans while having little to no knowledge of what its all about. Also I don't believe in the Mahdi concept, its extra-Quranic through and through, manufactured hadith believers like yourself, are the ones who have borrowed that from Christianity and Judaism and tried to force it unto Islam through the hadith factory...
#931 Posted by PM on July 19, 2007 12:18:03 am
re. Zee 914:
"Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910. "
Zee, bhai, I wasn't suggesting that I necessarily disagreed with those Muslims ready to give their lives at the drop of the hat. My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'.
Do you disagree?
re. #925: Translation? Of what? Was/Is there an Urdu article attached to the your post? I cancel the page download the moment the first posts appear on my screen, since I'm paying per unit of download, and can really do without the whole 900 interacts, along with pics, to come down. Please post the link to the article if there is one.
"Whether it is worth it or not, that is the question. To Muslims, it is worth it. To you it isn't. And that's the mental block I was referring to in #910. "
Zee, bhai, I wasn't suggesting that I necessarily disagreed with those Muslims ready to give their lives at the drop of the hat. My point was that, in the absence of incentives in a hereafter, non-believers would be inclined to "think deeper" about whether their cause is better caused by living to fight another day, or by a quick 'martyrdom'.
Do you disagree?
re. #925: Translation? Of what? Was/Is there an Urdu article attached to the your post? I cancel the page download the moment the first posts appear on my screen, since I'm paying per unit of download, and can really do without the whole 900 interacts, along with pics, to come down. Please post the link to the article if there is one.
#930 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 19, 2007 12:14:33 am
#927 Posted by echoboom
[You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so? ]
You have NO good answers. Isn't that so?
[You are named after an Avtar who is highly respected among hindus.
Would it not be nice if you told us about some of his sermons from the Mahabharta?
The questions you have asked and the answers you seek are probably not to increase your wisdom or a desire to embrace Islam..Isn't that so? ]
You have NO good answers. Isn't that so?