Khadija Hassan July 13, 2007
#582 Posted by ibaunited on September 5, 2008 11:32:14 pm
Musharraf ruined whatever he tried to do and I don't think I've hated anymore more than him but on Lal Masjid I'm with him.
All those who talk about hundreds that died, please realise that a military operation was the last option left for the govt. The ocupants of Lal Masjid had made life miserable for residents of the city and those of G-6 in particular.
In fact mullahs today are causing the greatest damage to the religion. At times I'm shocked to hear the kind of things they communicate to people during Friday sermons in mosques...and think of its effect on people who just go onto believe them. Lal Masjid was an extreme example of the same thing!!
All those who talk about hundreds that died, please realise that a military operation was the last option left for the govt. The ocupants of Lal Masjid had made life miserable for residents of the city and those of G-6 in particular.
In fact mullahs today are causing the greatest damage to the religion. At times I'm shocked to hear the kind of things they communicate to people during Friday sermons in mosques...and think of its effect on people who just go onto believe them. Lal Masjid was an extreme example of the same thing!!
#581 Posted by shahmurad65 on July 9, 2008 6:50:39 am
you wrote this colum 1 year ago but consequences we r facing in our dear pakistan now in 2008.
You look like komal tarique of lahore who can predict various things like u
You look like komal tarique of lahore who can predict various things like u
#580 Posted by freakx on July 5, 2008 3:15:52 am
if i am buttering then dont mind but i must say that never heard a good healthy neither filled with animosty nor support I every single word. Have my respects in all regards.
#579 Posted by Dy101 on February 16, 2008 6:45:01 am
Analysis of events in last two years can tell you quite a few things went wrong and there is tough time ahead. Pakistan is in danger. A small group which has exclusive rights and it has created negative feelings among people which will result in breaking of this society.
Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.
Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.
Khalid
Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.
Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.
Khalid
#578 Posted by Dy101 on February 16, 2008 6:44:14 am
Analysis of events in last two years can tell you quite a few things went wrong and there is tough time ahead. Pakistan is in danger. A small group which has exclusive rights and it has created negative feelings among people which will result in breaking of this society.
Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.
Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.
Khalid
Please do something sensible. Maybe you can organize civil society. I wish I could do something sensible other than just writing.
Now who is responsible? Who has been at the helm of afairs for las 8 years.
Khalid
#576 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 11:19:16 pm
thanks hassan for the nice remarks..let us all Pakistanis use this energy for Pakistan and Ummah...ameen
#575 Posted by hassann on August 6, 2007 1:28:36 pm
Dear D-I-D:
Your posts are full of great emotional energy. Smart people channel this emotional energy to do something constructive.
I recommend you use this energy to create something within your viccinity. I cannot suggest you anything because I do not know your environment and circumstances. You should be the judge.
If you deeply look at great people in history you will find that every injustice gave them inner strength to fight and uproot injustices.
Your posts are full of great emotional energy. Smart people channel this emotional energy to do something constructive.
I recommend you use this energy to create something within your viccinity. I cannot suggest you anything because I do not know your environment and circumstances. You should be the judge.
If you deeply look at great people in history you will find that every injustice gave them inner strength to fight and uproot injustices.
#574 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:06:47 am
in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
#573 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:05:59 am
These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
#572 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:05:33 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#571 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:04:37 am
Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..there was no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually on the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..there was no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually on the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
#570 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:03:45 am
Many people said said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#569 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:03:23 am
Many people said said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#568 Posted by hassann on July 26, 2007 1:00:21 pm
Khadija:
Your letter is well written. I do not believe Mush has any answers. Maybe you can answer the following questions:
Jamia Hafsa and Lal Masjid had armed people and in fighting they were able to kill 13 soldiers including a Colonel. Is this normal thing in Pakistani Madrassahs and other Schools and colleges?
Certainly there must be supplies of Alcohol and call girls available in Islamabad. It is very bad indeed. But should the common people take the law in their own hands and abduct people to put them on the right path??
Is it Islamic to raid the privacy of any home or business? The ladies with sticks were shown everywhere in the World smashing video stores. In the West even police cannot raid a home without proper warrant obtained from authorities???
I can assure you that in Europe and North America, all vices of alcohol, drugs, teenage pregnancies, prostitution exist ten fold as compared to Pakistan.
Then why majority of Pakistanis want want migrate to the West which maybe the land of Sinners.
I do not know about others but let me give my reasons.
1. In the West most of the people have food, clothing and shelter.
2. Health care is provided to majority of the citizens.
3. People are given the freedom of religion and the state tries its best to safeguard the right of worship.
For me these are enough reasons.
Lastly, I also believe that peaceful resolution is always better than fighting.
Your letter is well written. I do not believe Mush has any answers. Maybe you can answer the following questions:
Jamia Hafsa and Lal Masjid had armed people and in fighting they were able to kill 13 soldiers including a Colonel. Is this normal thing in Pakistani Madrassahs and other Schools and colleges?
Certainly there must be supplies of Alcohol and call girls available in Islamabad. It is very bad indeed. But should the common people take the law in their own hands and abduct people to put them on the right path??
Is it Islamic to raid the privacy of any home or business? The ladies with sticks were shown everywhere in the World smashing video stores. In the West even police cannot raid a home without proper warrant obtained from authorities???
I can assure you that in Europe and North America, all vices of alcohol, drugs, teenage pregnancies, prostitution exist ten fold as compared to Pakistan.
Then why majority of Pakistanis want want migrate to the West which maybe the land of Sinners.
I do not know about others but let me give my reasons.
1. In the West most of the people have food, clothing and shelter.
2. Health care is provided to majority of the citizens.
3. People are given the freedom of religion and the state tries its best to safeguard the right of worship.
For me these are enough reasons.
Lastly, I also believe that peaceful resolution is always better than fighting.
#567 Posted by tahmed32 on July 23, 2007 2:57:53 pm
#566 rf: The issues (free and fair elections for president, illegal for officer in uniform to be president, "disapperances" of pakistanis) are crystal clear. They didnt merely clash: musharraf tried to intimidate the CJ by putting on his uniform and having his 3-4 intelligence chiefs also in the room for hours trying to convince him to agree to his demand to continue as dictator. These differences have been reported in the local and world press for months. How you can say the issues are not clear is beyond me. How you can say that Musharraf's scheme for getting himself "re-elected" without calling general elections first is not short-circuiting of elections is beyond me.
As for the general's grace: he is a proven liar (and best that I can recall, the only head of state to have been called a liar in a major US newspaper, the Washington Post, editorial only last year when the paper noted that his claim that he never joked about gang rapes in his interview was disproved by the audio tape of the interview); orchestrated the outrages of May 12; lied when he came to power and claimed he would call elections soon; mocked the electoral process to get his current term by having a referendum... like I said the list is a long one. If you think this is "grace" than I dont know of anything that can be called "despicable"!!
You are obviously aware of all of the above as I am.
As for the general's grace: he is a proven liar (and best that I can recall, the only head of state to have been called a liar in a major US newspaper, the Washington Post, editorial only last year when the paper noted that his claim that he never joked about gang rapes in his interview was disproved by the audio tape of the interview); orchestrated the outrages of May 12; lied when he came to power and claimed he would call elections soon; mocked the electoral process to get his current term by having a referendum... like I said the list is a long one. If you think this is "grace" than I dont know of anything that can be called "despicable"!!
You are obviously aware of all of the above as I am.
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