Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt

I do not agree with your thinking. I agree with Masadi it is basic arrangement like chase game done by usa elites, UAE royal family, King Abdulla and they control general as well as all parties including PPP and army.The chinese will always support whoever rules IBad. They have commercial interest which will be best served by any rulers and they will refuse to use any capital as there is no need. The arrangement is necessarily bad. In this case the arrangement is best all all players and kingmakers and especially the people of pakistan. PAKISTAN NEED STABILITY.
Mr.General is still good man for country and will be atlest in near future , there is no alternative to president Musharaff. All king makers are thinking they are handling pakistan players it is true to some extent but two players are to smart one is general other is MQM chief. Mqm is too strong and deciplined and dedicated to its people to be "managed". Altaf will accept outside hand if his hands are becoming stronger and his opponents will be hurt. No ruler can control with out consent of MQM supremo. Actually he is most man to be watched. Altaf BB may combine to help president to continue , for bb this is short cut to becoming ruler and mount crown. As usual she is showing typiical corroupt way and all her short cut will lead to her on destruction. Shoert cuts are slippary. MQM supreme will support general as a insurance aginst BB starting murderous attacks on MQM or reviving MQM H. It will not be smooth journey soon interests of native sindhis and urban sindhi urdus will collide and inevitable fatricide will start of 80s. It is strange the this mother all secret deals are going on foreign soils under leadership of foreign heads is not healthy sign. I am told musharaff will dissolve elected bodies and will call NS , BB and AH all threee to return from England and help the healing. AH will not come till his parties elders and student advice him to rerurn for his chances of terror/ murder etc. PMLQ will be lead by Choudhary Sahib. MMA and PMLQ both are lost. We have lost freedom to british but it is joyopus to see the same country is hosting AH, BB and NS.
Army can follow "hina lesson" when there was riot of stiudents in their capital they crushed ruthlessly same with splitist Ughars and both are down. Open red mosque for believers but flood all area wiyth undercover gaents as china does and punish severly if some body makes trouble.
Any way let us thanks USA, KSA for forcing general and BB to start the new start.

#177 Posted by arjun2

[Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.


people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"? ]

You have your opinions that you generously share with the rest of us here at Chowk. I would think I am able to do the same.

It you have a problem with that, put a sock in it.

And since you mention it, wearing pants instead of dhotis is one thing. Dressing styles have crossed national borders repeatedly through history. A lot of Indian dresses are fashionable in the US now. But changing your parents' names to Mummy and Daddy reeks of low self esteem and low class of a very high order. Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease.

#175 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 12:09:06 pm


Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.


people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"?

ajeya
lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values

Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own. This not no flash in the pan. This is a widespread trend - all over the country - everywhere. Pimple-faced adolescents all over the country are redefining social values - they are convinced their forefathers were all backward-thinking idiots. And they are being egged on by the media and their yuppie parents.

#171 Posted by mohar11

[Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it... ]

The fact that you raise the issue of "traitor" tells me that you are not understanding where I am coming from. This is not a war. This is not a competition, where we are trying to impose our culture onto theirs, and we are suffering setbacks in this "agenda" because of "traitors".

No. This is ABOUT US, Indians. Period. This is about OUR civilization. Our culture, and OUR values.

[Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?

Wrong. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY START WEARING SAREES. What matters is we, as a culture, are losing faith in the very moorings of our civilization. The Westerners - they have self-respect. They value whatever culture they have. They might wear the occasional saree, or watch the occasional bollywood movie. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO CALL THEIR PARENTS "MATAJI" AND "PITAJI".



[Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :) ]

"Complaining" and "lamenting" are not the same thing, btw.

Conservative Christians are no different than conservative followers of any other Semitic religion - they hate anything that is outside their "holy book". Their complaints are different in nature than what I am talking about. The Conservative Christians are not worried that Americans will lose their culture - they know that they won't. They are always paranoid about losing their numerical superiority. Like all these Abrahamic religions, they are fighting for numbers - whoever has the biggest number - wins.

Asadi,

“Sometimes western especially CIA sources need to be read carefully because the preempt the agenda of the US elite,”

Reading and learning is important I agree with that. My point was there is nothing in the stratfar report that you did not know already. People of lesser intelligence and political understanding often quote newspaper reports and analysis by some nincompoops reporters as the final word on the issue.

The questions in the current Pakistani equation are: what the US would gain by removing Musharaf and why go through an elaborate arrangement of moving all the pieces they have in Pakistan to force his removal?

The CJ issue is a case in point. This was too elaborate and too subtle for most of the people but it was open to some that the CJ or the lawyers had no guts to oppose Musharaf, if they did not have support in some quarters in the army itself or were not encouraged by some US allied groups in the establishment. The attempt to confine the lawyers’ movement to Punjab alone and then keeping the issue of Lal mosque alive in Islamabad clearly point to the possibility that what is going on in Pakistan is a little more than just attempted removal of Musharaf. He is just a small puppy who would have been gone with a right call. He is just going through a role assigned to him.

I would like to emphasis that Benazir, if made PM of Pakistan, will not able to control the islamist without the army’s help and army’s help to her would not be forthcoming due to several historical reasons. Which to me suggests that she will be the one who would seek the US help inside Pakistan I think she has agreed to be another Malaiki in Pakistan.

The King of Saudi Arabia has already said goodbye to Musharaf. The Saudis double crossed Musharaf and they did that to initiate a much bigger game in Pakistan Removal of Musharaf is just a petty matter now.

[... Just let me know periodically whether "Indian culture will be fine"...]

Will do, my friend... just relax... On presidential races - the lady already won in India... and the lady is going to win in US...

Sania Mirza is just a flash in the pan - she is not going anywhere...

ajeya
[...The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world...]

Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it...

Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?

Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :)

#168 Posted by mohar11

[Also - if you check in your neigboring village - there will be people who name their kids Gangaram and Basanti, call their parents mataji and pitaji and yet neglect them in their old age. happens all the time...]

But they are MUCH less likely to do that than their westernized counterparts. I can see that all over India today, as compared to when I was growing up.

See? You've just put forward an argument that is invalid.

#166 Posted by mohar11

[This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...]

What "rumour-mongering"? Against what "neighbor"? What "situation" are you talking about? The "grand clash of cultures theory" is all yours. As far as I am concerned, there is no "clash" - one is simply replacing the other.


[Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)]

With soothesayers like you, I feel better already. Just let me know periodically whether "Indian culture will be fine". Do you also forecast Presidential races? And whether Sania Mirza is going to win?

Also - if you check in your neigboring village - there will be people who name their kids Gangaram and Basanti, call their parents mataji and pitaji and yet neglect them in their old age. happens all the time...

#157 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 8:16:32 am

Mostly agreed. What does the PPP have to do to be considered as a party that delivers? For an ordinary Pakistani on the street what does it really mean?

Let me take a stab at it, and see if you can agree on some of my thoughts:

1. Law and order situation in all of Pakistan. As a preamble the judiciary was made somewhat stronger.

2. Getting rid of the extremists in NWFP. This could easily happen with moderate pathans. To get rid of the extremists, Uncle Sam is willing to spend over $1B only in the NWFP.

3. Since Uncle Sam is on a different platform, JI will now be left with very few seats. Except of a few puff-puff and a few huff-huff, JI will be left for a few fundamentalists. Eventually, Qazi Hussain would be included in the same category as Mullah Diesel.

And all of this is because the Chinese want to spend over $15B in Pakistan. Can you see why mullahism has to go into sunset?

ajeya

This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...

Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)

HP writes "asadi,

A person of your grasp of Pakistani politics does not need to quote from the western sources."

Thanks for the kind comments but you think too highly of me. I'm still in the process of muddling through this disaster that is Pakistan. Sometimes western especially CIA sources need to be read carefully because the preempt the agenda of the US elite, that is where their major use lies...

It does not matter to me that Americans are wearing sarees or doing yoga. It matters to me that we Indians are losing our Indian values and adopting "Universal" values - which are really Western values - PERMANENTLY. I see this process as non-reversible - with horrendous effects on the society that will be felt more and more down the road.