Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt
Muhammad sadiq July 26, 2007
#227 Posted by HP on August 1, 2007 9:30:45 pm
Now the reality check time.
I posted this on “Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt” thread
http://www.chowk.com/interacts/12388/1/0/48#333851
“I would like to emphasis that Benazir, if made PM of Pakistan, will not able to control the islamist without the army’s help and army’s help to her would not be forthcoming due to several historical reasons. Which to me suggests that she will be the one who would seek the US help inside Pakistan I think she has agreed to be another Malaiki in Pakistan.”
This above represent the only scenario where the US army would enter Pakistan. And I think this situation would occur in Pakistan within six months of Benazir taking over Pakistan. The Pak army will not cooperate with Benazir no matter how hard she tries and despite ironclad guarantees from the US for the Pak army support. Even if she appoints Asif Zardari as the Chief of the Army., she will not get the cooperation from the Pak army That is the nature of the Pak army.
Btw, At that time all the Islamist here will support the Army a 100%. wanna Bet?
I posted this on “Lal Masjid: Lessons Learnt” thread
http://www.chowk.com/interacts/12388/1/0/48#333851
“I would like to emphasis that Benazir, if made PM of Pakistan, will not able to control the islamist without the army’s help and army’s help to her would not be forthcoming due to several historical reasons. Which to me suggests that she will be the one who would seek the US help inside Pakistan I think she has agreed to be another Malaiki in Pakistan.”
This above represent the only scenario where the US army would enter Pakistan. And I think this situation would occur in Pakistan within six months of Benazir taking over Pakistan. The Pak army will not cooperate with Benazir no matter how hard she tries and despite ironclad guarantees from the US for the Pak army support. Even if she appoints Asif Zardari as the Chief of the Army., she will not get the cooperation from the Pak army That is the nature of the Pak army.
Btw, At that time all the Islamist here will support the Army a 100%. wanna Bet?
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#226 Posted by zeemax on July 31, 2007 6:38:17 am
Hey dawa-i-dil,
Not to rub salt in your wounds ... but have you seen this (dated 27th July)?
LoL ... Cheerleaders of Quetta Football Team !!!
Not to rub salt in your wounds ... but have you seen this (dated 27th July)?
LoL ... Cheerleaders of Quetta Football Team !!!
#225 Posted by arjun2 on July 31, 2007 6:03:40 am
uh-oh...ajeya is going to get his dhoti in a knot...(isn't a dhoti pretty much already in a knot anyway?)
Birthday Bashes That Take the Cake
For Parents in India, a Chance to Display Generosity, Affluence
By Emily Wax
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, July 31, 2007; Page A01
NEW DELHI -- Inside the chandeliered party hall of an upscale hotel, with its canopies of balloons and sparkly lights, three video cameramen and two photographers jostled like paparazzi to get a glimpse of the guest of honor.
Waiters in black tie waded through the crowd, serving endless silver trays of chicken tikka kebabs, grilled shrimp and samosas. Several DJs spun fast-tempo Punjabi pop that pulsated from refrigerator-size speakers. There were cocktails for the adults, and for the kids, cotton candy.
This was, after all, a birthday party for a 2-year-old -- little curly-haired Taisa Arora, to be specific. On a recent Saturday night, she wore her Strawberry Shortcake Mary Janes and a princess-like sequined outfit, and yawned as her grandmother cradled her amid the excitement of 125 guests, most arriving after 10 p.m. and only some of them children.
In India, weddings have long been extravagant celebrations of a lifetime, costing families huge sums. But with prosperity growing in urban India, more and more parents are spending exorbitant amounts on children's birthday parties -- sometimes in excess of $4,000 a bash.
"The birthday party is the new wedding in India, and the sky is the limit," said Rakesh Gupta, a party planner who has seen his business double in the past few years. "It's a serious industry now, and people want to spend lavishly and outdo each other. People in India don't like to save. They want to enjoy life and live for today after so many years of poverty and struggle."
For India's wealthier classes, birthday parties are a chance to network with business colleagues and to reunite relatives, bringing together overworked families from cities around the country. Perhaps most important, the parties are a source of pride for Indians looking to demonstrate their new wealth, as parents try to impress one another with opulent soirees.
The Indian economy has enjoyed record growth rates of 8 percent to 9 percent during the past three years, in part because the once-socialist country has opened its markets globally. The country has developed a large service industry, with the technology, pharmaceutical and biotechnology sectors serving international markets. Although India has the largest number of poor people struggling to survive on $1 a day, its middle class has more than tripled in the past two decades, according to the World Bank.
In cities, swanky stores hawk shiny bathroom fixtures and $2,000 Jacuzzis, and television ads show smiling Indian housewives buying new washing machines and moving into condo complexes.
When it comes to birthday parties, the change has been striking. Gone are the days of the quiet birthday visit with grandparents to a Hindu temple and a simple box of Indian sweets. Now there's the frazzled party planner to hire, invitations with calligraphy to buy, elephant and camel rides to plan, a sports or cartoon theme to pick out, and a moon bounce to choose.
Birthday Bashes That Take the Cake
For Parents in India, a Chance to Display Generosity, Affluence
By Emily Wax
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, July 31, 2007; Page A01
NEW DELHI -- Inside the chandeliered party hall of an upscale hotel, with its canopies of balloons and sparkly lights, three video cameramen and two photographers jostled like paparazzi to get a glimpse of the guest of honor.
Waiters in black tie waded through the crowd, serving endless silver trays of chicken tikka kebabs, grilled shrimp and samosas. Several DJs spun fast-tempo Punjabi pop that pulsated from refrigerator-size speakers. There were cocktails for the adults, and for the kids, cotton candy.
This was, after all, a birthday party for a 2-year-old -- little curly-haired Taisa Arora, to be specific. On a recent Saturday night, she wore her Strawberry Shortcake Mary Janes and a princess-like sequined outfit, and yawned as her grandmother cradled her amid the excitement of 125 guests, most arriving after 10 p.m. and only some of them children.
In India, weddings have long been extravagant celebrations of a lifetime, costing families huge sums. But with prosperity growing in urban India, more and more parents are spending exorbitant amounts on children's birthday parties -- sometimes in excess of $4,000 a bash.
"The birthday party is the new wedding in India, and the sky is the limit," said Rakesh Gupta, a party planner who has seen his business double in the past few years. "It's a serious industry now, and people want to spend lavishly and outdo each other. People in India don't like to save. They want to enjoy life and live for today after so many years of poverty and struggle."
For India's wealthier classes, birthday parties are a chance to network with business colleagues and to reunite relatives, bringing together overworked families from cities around the country. Perhaps most important, the parties are a source of pride for Indians looking to demonstrate their new wealth, as parents try to impress one another with opulent soirees.
The Indian economy has enjoyed record growth rates of 8 percent to 9 percent during the past three years, in part because the once-socialist country has opened its markets globally. The country has developed a large service industry, with the technology, pharmaceutical and biotechnology sectors serving international markets. Although India has the largest number of poor people struggling to survive on $1 a day, its middle class has more than tripled in the past two decades, according to the World Bank.
In cities, swanky stores hawk shiny bathroom fixtures and $2,000 Jacuzzis, and television ads show smiling Indian housewives buying new washing machines and moving into condo complexes.
When it comes to birthday parties, the change has been striking. Gone are the days of the quiet birthday visit with grandparents to a Hindu temple and a simple box of Indian sweets. Now there's the frazzled party planner to hire, invitations with calligraphy to buy, elephant and camel rides to plan, a sports or cartoon theme to pick out, and a moon bounce to choose.
#224 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:17:44 am
in the early days...he started to change the religious axis of pakistan....
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
his first picture was..in front of PM house with small dog in his hand....to show people he is very moderate....
he lived in Turkey..so he fisrt declared that his most beloved personality is Kamal Attaturk...so..he wanted to transform pakistan into Turkey..and considered himself as Attaturk of Pakistan....
but thanks god...the religious masses of pakistan were so strong that...despite of his 8 years ..efforts..he could not change the pakistan into secular Turkey..and also infleunced the Army to be like Turkish Natinal Army..but he also failed in this regard...
though ..in these efforts..he made enormous losses to whole Pakistan idelogical axis..with a lot of anarchy and suicide bombings...and reactionary efforts of Lal Masjid..etc....
On Basant ..in 6 years..full time ...Baighairti...Shabab-o-Kabab mehfils..mujras..and other things...he himself was in Lahore on basant nights for 6 years..when atlast Supreme court put a complete ban on Basant....
He also tried to secularize the Army by regular basis musicaol concerts in every garrison and Abrar ..and other were invited on night dinners...there..still today....while Zia ul haq..never allowed that...
In his foolish thinking that iNdia will compromise on Kashmir..he turned whole pakistan media into indian culture..Meera going there..there singers and actors..and film stars coming here....but the Indians shown him boots on Kashmir issue..no dialogue at all...
he ordered the music classes in Punjab university..although students protested against that..but his nasha of enlightened moderation was overwhelming him...
PTV ..and other private channels are so much that sometimes they beat even indian channels in nudity and baighairti ..but no check from government at all....
these all are the fruits of this Dictator era...
#223 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:17:06 am
These bloody .....broke the country...made pakistan..and heroin state..gave waters of 3 rivers to pakistan....and atlast..made the whole country ..in the burning fire of suicide attacks.....
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
these lanti...harami..generals ..consider themselves above every law..and rule and regulations.....
they have created a state within a state in pakistan....
there budget is never presented in National Assembly or Senate.....the most highest bodies of pakistan....
Nobody knows where the 60% of GDP go......
Minerva...come and look at he castle or palace of Lahore Corp Commander in Defence area...at night...1000's of bulbs glow..on his palace..who is he ...a soldier ..whose job is to defend country..but these baighairat kuttai....looted the money for thier own luxuries....
go and see ..how these Baighairat generals go in thier precious cars to have golf match in evening.....like they have conquered Kashmir.....
go and see..how these bloody general's wives...go to Cavalary..and Liberty market.. ...for shopping in offical cars....like they are queens of pakistan...bah.... lanti
in same Lahore..people have not pure water to drink..the patients are dying as they have no medicine..and these harami generals are enjoying the Pakistan money for thier badmashi...drunkards kuttai ........
for 60 years...they have made pakistan...the most corrupt...and beggar country....of the world...
these baighairat generals... ...DHA princes..and land mafia generals..are now...on the way..to eat whole Gwadar lands..in thier greed.....
These lanti generals ..consider themselves as very superior ...and call us " bloody civilians" ..lanti na ho tau......
what they have given to pakistan in 60 years..except..the kicking off the elected govermnets of 150 millions...or gallows to elected PM ..etc....
in my eyes..the only solution is...to have gallows...be constructed in Islamabad Abpara Chowk..bring all these baighairat generals ..to that..place..and sentence them to death..in front of all nation.....thats the only solution left...if we want to get rid of this cancer...
#222 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:16:20 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#221 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:15:58 am
An elected leader of 15 crore people declined 5 phone calls of US President...as he knew...if he will not disobey him...2/3 majority in National Assembly against him..will kick him out from PM seat....
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
While this baighairat general...about which Clinton ..was not willing to shake hands with him...on eve of 11 september 2001..laid down his all weapons on his bed when he listened tothe 3rd level secretary of US ...lanat on him....
is this the respect of a nuclear and missile state....can an elected leader do that.....without taking into consideration his cabinet..NA ..Senate...and pals like Saudia..Emirates..and China etc....
just as this baihghairat Dictaor got a golden chance to "Legetamize" his millitary rule..in eyes of US and West....and for his seat...he pushed the whole pakistan..in fire and hell...of that war..which was not actually of pakistan....and accepted every thing they demanded..shame on him.....
can an elected goverment do that..it is answerable to 10's of institution..this Dictaor was not answerable to anyone....
and plz..dont give me psuedo threats of US attackilng pakistan and taking her to cave era or stone age like crap.....only dictators having no public support fear from these childish threats...not any elected government of 150 millions......
#220 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:15:45 am
Do you not know this simple fact that newton's 3rd Law..is more applicable to our social life rather than Physics...
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
do you not know..what this Baighairat general did in 8 years to change the ideological islamic axis of pakistan....
nobody wants cave vesrion of jahil taliban type islam in Pakistan...but is it means that you start Sharab-o-Kabab mehfils..in every nook and corner of the country... semi nude Marathon races...the cable dish atmosphere... ..indian kanjar culture...the indo pak blend of film and drama industry...music cocerts in army areas in whole Pakistan...where these Baighairat generals...having drinks in hands....dance with the singers.....
* do you not know what is happening in pakistan in whole this dictator era....the Basant ....and mujras..and chaklas ...stage dances.....and brothels....where were they leading to pakistan....
Thjis baighairat general....asked for Imam-e-Kaaba ...last few months..when the whole country stood with CJ of Pakistan..why not he remebered to have one more Marathon Race...with logo Dor mairai Lahore.....why he invited Imam-e-Kaaba..and start giving proofs of his entering the Khana Kaaba and on his roof....
can you change the religious axis of pakistan on the name of so called Enlightened Moderation.....can people will accept all these things....
will they not react....before this Dictator..where were all talibans...when they actualy ruling in Afghanistan..therewas no talbinization in whole pakistan..and when they are not actually n the scene..suddenly..this Talbinization ..reached inside Islamabad...why ???????
When you try to change the mindset of traditions..then be ready to face the music also....
#219 Posted by dawa-i-dil on July 31, 2007 4:15:17 am
You said that Lal Masjid was a drama and threat of islamic millitants....
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
hahahah....
*do you know...the ISI HQ is about 200 or 400 yards from the Lal Mosque....
* the petrol bombs...rocket launchers...gas masks..accumulated to this mosque in invisble mode...i think.....
* the ISI personals were drinkinng daru ..and enjoying soota of powder wali cigaratte when all arms were going in.....
* is it possible that..inside heart of a capital..and adjacent to ISI HQ....the dangerous arms keep on gathering....
* The baighairat general and his bloody baihgat generals ka tola ...instteadof using IB..MI..and ISI for national security..were using them to gather funny and ridiculous....proofs of Chef Justice inside house photographs..bugging the 19 SC judges...phone tapping...and threatening them with pressures.....Lanat on them...is in UK or USA..can you think..the government can do such dirty things....
* bugging of all High Courts ..and judges housese so that they cnnot unfold..the Chor Bazari..of the government..and black mail them...lanat on all the Baighatrs general's Tola again....
*when secret agents are on phone tapping of judges...can they know..wht is happening inside the heart of capital...in a place which is already famous for tensive speeches and vogorousss elements....
*who supported Ghazi brothers for 20 years...were all armed forces were not with them...now they have become the terrorists....
* i am against their implementation ways..but what they are saying...is 100% right..do you not know..what is going on in the name of enlightened Moderation..are you so unaware of that...Aunti Shameem...regulars customers were many Federal Secreatries..and 2 Ministers....and police invited the girls to stop that..as they said ..we are helpless due to government pressure..i am aginst the way the girls raided..but its not the duty of law enforcement agencies to stop these things..tell me...
#218 Posted by jayp on July 31, 2007 3:12:07 am
215 Kaalchakra,
I too have heard this question.
Tell them to be indian means to take a long term view on all matters and try to be very good in whatever one chooses to do.
This has to be demonstrated by parents own actions by example. Send them to the best schools at the expense of living in a smaller house. That is long term view.
Look after them, spend time with them at the expense of rapidly advancing career. That is long term view.
Finally by retirement look back with pride that your 26 year old is paid more than your last pay after more than 3 decades as an engineer. That is long term view.
I too have heard this question.
Tell them to be indian means to take a long term view on all matters and try to be very good in whatever one chooses to do.
This has to be demonstrated by parents own actions by example. Send them to the best schools at the expense of living in a smaller house. That is long term view.
Look after them, spend time with them at the expense of rapidly advancing career. That is long term view.
Finally by retirement look back with pride that your 26 year old is paid more than your last pay after more than 3 decades as an engineer. That is long term view.
#217 Posted by zeemax on July 31, 2007 1:40:52 am
#205 Posted by KaalChakra
HAHA, zee, just returned to share this somewhat amusing idea. Hindu liberals are Hindus who have "faith" in yesterday's man-made beliefs. :)
Haha ... brilliant!
HAHA, zee, just returned to share this somewhat amusing idea. Hindu liberals are Hindus who have "faith" in yesterday's man-made beliefs. :)
Haha ... brilliant!
#216 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 11:11:08 pm
#215 Posted by KaalChakra
[What, broadly, for "indian culture" should Indians in the US try to teach their sons and daughters born and brought up here, right in the land of the free? I have seen new parents here repeatedly ask this question. You are more knowledgeable than I am, so would love to know your views, and those of anyone else who might wish to share. Thanks.]
They should teach whatever pleases their soul. Who am I to tell them what they should or should not do? It's like if you decide to wear a neon pink Hawaiian shirt to work. Should I stop you? Of course not (not that I could if I tried : )). Will it cause me to grit my teeth and lose a crown or two? You bet it will. But that's the price you pay for democracy. : )
[What, broadly, for "indian culture" should Indians in the US try to teach their sons and daughters born and brought up here, right in the land of the free? I have seen new parents here repeatedly ask this question. You are more knowledgeable than I am, so would love to know your views, and those of anyone else who might wish to share. Thanks.]
They should teach whatever pleases their soul. Who am I to tell them what they should or should not do? It's like if you decide to wear a neon pink Hawaiian shirt to work. Should I stop you? Of course not (not that I could if I tried : )). Will it cause me to grit my teeth and lose a crown or two? You bet it will. But that's the price you pay for democracy. : )
#215 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 9:18:59 pm
Ajeya, ok, please leave mohar and arjun aside, I want to pick your brains on something important you just mentioned :)
What, broadly, for "indian culture" should Indians in the US try to teach their sons and daughters born and brought up here, right in the land of the free? I have seen new parents here repeatedly ask this question. You are more knowledgeable than I am, so would love to know your views, and those of anyone else who might wish to share. Thanks.
What, broadly, for "indian culture" should Indians in the US try to teach their sons and daughters born and brought up here, right in the land of the free? I have seen new parents here repeatedly ask this question. You are more knowledgeable than I am, so would love to know your views, and those of anyone else who might wish to share. Thanks.
#214 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 9:02:57 pm
#209 Posted by mohar11
[Good post... Ajeya is unnecessarily hung-up on semantics : "Mummy-Daddy" and "Bobbie-Pinky"... even though I haven't heard anybody in US named as "Pinky"...
This is just semantics - Just like "God" doesn't mean a western god... Words like Mom and Dad are just part of English Language - which is our legacy as much anybody else's... English is as much an "Indian" language as it is a western language...]
If Hindi and English are equally our legacy, how come most Indians I know speak in their native tongue at home, but never fail to call their father "Dad" and mother "Mom"?
It's not semantics, my friend, there is something more at work here.
[If one don't like the words Mummy-daddy - one may as well stop using the words like "table", "chair", "internet", "web" etc etc and use it's indian equivalent - if one can find one...]
Tables and chairs were mostly British imports, at least on a mass scale. The internet and the web were created and named in the west. Were the parents created and named in the west too?
[Sorry to say this - but Ajeya is just being silly and frivolous... His arguments sound increasingly like chicken little - the sky is falling - Indian culture is being taken over... where as nothing of that sort is happening...
Indians world over are known to tenaciously hang on to their indian-ness - generations after generations - in totally foreign lands[sometimes to their own detriment]... we see that all the time in US... ]
I live in the US. Almost all Indian parents I see are westernized - they look Indian, but their values are indistiguishable from their American neighbors - and it's difficult to tell their children apart from Jay-Z or any of the other cultural icons. There are exceptions to all of this, of course, but this is true in general.
[So to think that they will just roll over into whole-scale westernization in their own homeland is just plain ridiculous... ]
I hope you are right. But the signs are not good.
[Good post... Ajeya is unnecessarily hung-up on semantics : "Mummy-Daddy" and "Bobbie-Pinky"... even though I haven't heard anybody in US named as "Pinky"...
This is just semantics - Just like "God" doesn't mean a western god... Words like Mom and Dad are just part of English Language - which is our legacy as much anybody else's... English is as much an "Indian" language as it is a western language...]
If Hindi and English are equally our legacy, how come most Indians I know speak in their native tongue at home, but never fail to call their father "Dad" and mother "Mom"?
It's not semantics, my friend, there is something more at work here.
[If one don't like the words Mummy-daddy - one may as well stop using the words like "table", "chair", "internet", "web" etc etc and use it's indian equivalent - if one can find one...]
Tables and chairs were mostly British imports, at least on a mass scale. The internet and the web were created and named in the west. Were the parents created and named in the west too?
[Sorry to say this - but Ajeya is just being silly and frivolous... His arguments sound increasingly like chicken little - the sky is falling - Indian culture is being taken over... where as nothing of that sort is happening...
Indians world over are known to tenaciously hang on to their indian-ness - generations after generations - in totally foreign lands[sometimes to their own detriment]... we see that all the time in US... ]
I live in the US. Almost all Indian parents I see are westernized - they look Indian, but their values are indistiguishable from their American neighbors - and it's difficult to tell their children apart from Jay-Z or any of the other cultural icons. There are exceptions to all of this, of course, but this is true in general.
[So to think that they will just roll over into whole-scale westernization in their own homeland is just plain ridiculous... ]
I hope you are right. But the signs are not good.
#213 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 8:19:44 pm
#210 Posted by mohar11
[And Ajeya's remark on slapping people on valentine's day is particularly troubling... Hope he has not carried out that threat already - that would be bordering on talibanism... or shiv-sena-ism, if you will... :) ]
That would be better than calling your father "Dad" or mother "Mom". : )
[And Ajeya's remark on slapping people on valentine's day is particularly troubling... Hope he has not carried out that threat already - that would be bordering on talibanism... or shiv-sena-ism, if you will... :) ]
That would be better than calling your father "Dad" or mother "Mom". : )
#212 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 8:17:51 pm
#208 Posted by arjun2
[you've mistaken me for someone who gives a roden't rear..]
I don't blame you. It's not your fault. Half-breeds usually don't give a rat's as$ about anything. No culture, no past, no future. Go back to your javascript or whatever miserable little job you have.
[you've mistaken me for someone who gives a roden't rear..]
I don't blame you. It's not your fault. Half-breeds usually don't give a rat's as$ about anything. No culture, no past, no future. Go back to your javascript or whatever miserable little job you have.
#211 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 4:22:23 pm
Hehe, mohar, having promoted extremism, I am not going to gang up against ajeya. or against arjun. We need both, very much, along with the wide Indian spectrum right in the middle.
We will be fine. I think of Indian movies as our true symbol - they can frustrate everyone of us; are they too American? are they too regressive? no, they are just Indian: only Indians can make them. Whether they are Tamil, Telugu, or Hindi films, no Hollywood can be a threat to them, because they have something of their own - we may laugh at whatever it is, because it is very human, but it is there - inside them. :)
We will be fine. I think of Indian movies as our true symbol - they can frustrate everyone of us; are they too American? are they too regressive? no, they are just Indian: only Indians can make them. Whether they are Tamil, Telugu, or Hindi films, no Hollywood can be a threat to them, because they have something of their own - we may laugh at whatever it is, because it is very human, but it is there - inside them. :)
#210 Posted by mohar11 on July 30, 2007 3:20:19 pm
And Ajeya's remark on slapping people on valentine's day is particularly troubling... Hope he has not carried out that threat already - that would be bordering on talibanism... or shiv-sena-ism, if you will... :)
#209 Posted by mohar11 on July 30, 2007 3:15:56 pm
Kaal
Good post... Ajeya is unnecessarily hung-up on semantics : "Mummy-Daddy" and "Bobbie-Pinky"... even though I haven't heard anybody in US named as "Pinky"...
This is just semantics - Just like "God" doesn't mean a western god... Words like Mom and Dad are just part of English Language - which is our legacy as much anybody else's... English is as much an "Indian" language as it is a western language...
If one don't like the words Mummy-daddy - one may as well stop using the words like "table", "chair", "internet", "web" etc etc and use it's indian equivalent - if one can find one...
Sorry to say this - but Ajeya is just being silly and frivolous... His arguments sound increasingly like chicken little - the sky is falling - Indian culture is being taken over... where as nothing of that sort is happening...
Indians world over are known to tenaciously hang on to their indian-ness - generations after generations - in totally foreign lands[sometimes to their own detriment]... we see that all the time in US... So to think that they will just roll over into whole-scale westernization in their own homeland is just plain ridiculous...
Good post... Ajeya is unnecessarily hung-up on semantics : "Mummy-Daddy" and "Bobbie-Pinky"... even though I haven't heard anybody in US named as "Pinky"...
This is just semantics - Just like "God" doesn't mean a western god... Words like Mom and Dad are just part of English Language - which is our legacy as much anybody else's... English is as much an "Indian" language as it is a western language...
If one don't like the words Mummy-daddy - one may as well stop using the words like "table", "chair", "internet", "web" etc etc and use it's indian equivalent - if one can find one...
Sorry to say this - but Ajeya is just being silly and frivolous... His arguments sound increasingly like chicken little - the sky is falling - Indian culture is being taken over... where as nothing of that sort is happening...
Indians world over are known to tenaciously hang on to their indian-ness - generations after generations - in totally foreign lands[sometimes to their own detriment]... we see that all the time in US... So to think that they will just roll over into whole-scale westernization in their own homeland is just plain ridiculous...
#208 Posted by arjun2 on July 30, 2007 3:01:26 pm
#206 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:53:12 pm
you've mistaken me for someone who gives a roden't rear..
the people have made their decision...pappaji: if you don't like it, stufff a dhoti in it...
you've mistaken me for someone who gives a roden't rear..
the people have made their decision...pappaji: if you don't like it, stufff a dhoti in it...
#207 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 1:11:00 pm
#200 Posted by KaalChakra
[Ajeya, those who TOTALLY stop "aping" others invariably end up stopping all "learning."
You must know, learning is not just aping, but a good deal of learning is "aping."]
Not true. There is a very thick line between learning from others, and monkey-see-monkey-do.
[Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. ]
One or two monkey-men like this half-breed arjun here are good for occasional entertainment, but too many is a nuisance.
[Ajeya, those who TOTALLY stop "aping" others invariably end up stopping all "learning."
You must know, learning is not just aping, but a good deal of learning is "aping."]
Not true. There is a very thick line between learning from others, and monkey-see-monkey-do.
[Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. ]
One or two monkey-men like this half-breed arjun here are good for occasional entertainment, but too many is a nuisance.
#206 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:53:12 pm
#201 Posted by arjun2
Criticism don't feel good to your half-breed brain? Stick a baseball cap down your gullet.
And btw, Jesus did NOT have a virgin birth. A Roman soldier was porking Mary when Joseph was away. It's true. Really.
Criticism don't feel good to your half-breed brain? Stick a baseball cap down your gullet.
And btw, Jesus did NOT have a virgin birth. A Roman soldier was porking Mary when Joseph was away. It's true. Really.
#205 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 12:32:28 pm
HAHA, zee, just returned to share this somewhat amusing idea. Hindu liberals are Hindus who have "faith" in yesterday's man-made beliefs. :)
(So while rightwingers like me might benefit from Echo's insights, liberal Hindus blindly ape people who actually have divine faith. Hear them say: This (any man-made belief which could be, verifiably, empirically, proven wrong) is so because that is what I like to believe, and nothing you can say will make any difference to me, now or ever.
OK, enough liberal bashing for the day :)
(So while rightwingers like me might benefit from Echo's insights, liberal Hindus blindly ape people who actually have divine faith. Hear them say: This (any man-made belief which could be, verifiably, empirically, proven wrong) is so because that is what I like to believe, and nothing you can say will make any difference to me, now or ever.
OK, enough liberal bashing for the day :)
#204 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 11:53:30 am
Zee, because Echo is the boss :)
But really, zee, a culture/religion that is self-avowedly man-made has to constantly rely on human intelligence, that means - learn, and find ways of living with all others in peace and honor.
Hindu liberals are a pitiable lot precisely because they neither have Islam's or Christianity's faith, nor do care to heed Hinduism's call to constantly learn and change.
But really, zee, a culture/religion that is self-avowedly man-made has to constantly rely on human intelligence, that means - learn, and find ways of living with all others in peace and honor.
Hindu liberals are a pitiable lot precisely because they neither have Islam's or Christianity's faith, nor do care to heed Hinduism's call to constantly learn and change.
#203 Posted by zeemax on July 30, 2007 11:41:53 am
#198 Posted by KaalChakra,
How come what both Ajeya and you are saying sounds like Echoboom??????????
How come what both Ajeya and you are saying sounds like Echoboom??????????
#202 Posted by zeemax on July 30, 2007 11:37:38 am
#195 Posted by KaalChakra
Like Islam, Indian culture pulls people in, on its own. It just draws very different sort of people, and that raises important issues that we need to appreciate, and prepare for (so we can live in peace, given the inescapable contradictions, therein).
This is so true, but they won't listen. They would rather kill and get killed.
Like Islam, Indian culture pulls people in, on its own. It just draws very different sort of people, and that raises important issues that we need to appreciate, and prepare for (so we can live in peace, given the inescapable contradictions, therein).
This is so true, but they won't listen. They would rather kill and get killed.
#201 Posted by arjun2 on July 30, 2007 11:02:43 am
#193 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:10:46 am
Explain to me EXACTLY HOW calling your mother and father "Mummy" and "Daddy" from "mataji" and "pitaji" or "ma" and "baba" is somehow "moving towards Universal Values"?
Don't like it? stuff a dhoti in it...
Explain to me EXACTLY HOW calling your mother and father "Mummy" and "Daddy" from "mataji" and "pitaji" or "ma" and "baba" is somehow "moving towards Universal Values"?
Don't like it? stuff a dhoti in it...
#200 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 9:26:27 am
Ajeya, those who TOTALLY stop "aping" others invariably end up stopping all "learning." You must know, learning is not just aping, but a good deal of learning is "aping."
Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. But we will become all monkeys ONLY if we ourselves had nothing of real value to offer in a free exchange devoid of trickery or coercion.
I don't think that is the case at all. That why, ajeya, have confidence. There will be monkeys in India, and monkeys in America. Others can learn, from one another, to our mutual benefit.
Some aping will create some monkeys. We can welcome that, for sheer entertainment value. But we will become all monkeys ONLY if we ourselves had nothing of real value to offer in a free exchange devoid of trickery or coercion.
I don't think that is the case at all. That why, ajeya, have confidence. There will be monkeys in India, and monkeys in America. Others can learn, from one another, to our mutual benefit.
#199 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 9:16:48 am
So long as these numbers DON'T overwhelm those of Indians who...
#198 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 9:15:46 am
LOL, Ajyea, my feeling is that most Indians grow out of that mummy daddy phase after they have crossed their teen years. Some people may not, but that is ok. So long as these numbers totally overwhelm those of Indians are more comfortabel in others, these remain just surface level attributes of culture. Like clothes, food, modes of worship etc. Don't we Indians revel in our differences? Isn't that our greatest message?
But yes, if there was an effort by some to create a new "Mummy-Daddy" culture throughout, to eliminate all others, one must, as a matter of duty, oppose them tooth and nail, on seashore and on land, as it were. :)
But yes, if there was an effort by some to create a new "Mummy-Daddy" culture throughout, to eliminate all others, one must, as a matter of duty, oppose them tooth and nail, on seashore and on land, as it were. :)
#197 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 9:08:48 am
#195 Posted by KaalChakra
[All those things are simultaneously true. Ajeya has to have more confidence. Indian people need, above all, to succeed, and in order to succeed, they should have every reasonable freedom to be as creative and open as they can be.]
What does success or creativity have to do with calling your parents "Mummy" and "Daddy"? Looks like apeing the West, to me.
[All those things are simultaneously true. Ajeya has to have more confidence. Indian people need, above all, to succeed, and in order to succeed, they should have every reasonable freedom to be as creative and open as they can be.]
What does success or creativity have to do with calling your parents "Mummy" and "Daddy"? Looks like apeing the West, to me.
#196 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 9:04:11 am
#194 Posted by DrDr
[ajeya u r tilting @ the windmill & r exercised over trivial things - ]
"Tilting at windmills" means taking on impossible challenges - challenges which are futile. This is hardly that.
And it is not trivial either. But if it seems trivial to you, why are you arguing about it?
[again, gender equality, equality of all humans b4 the law, equal rights r universal values - we in the west have discovered them a little ahead of traditional societies - that doesnt make them western values ]
You're wrong on ALL counts. This is where education becomes important. Before arguing on "gut feel", read a little.
I could give you examples from Indian history - from Hindu scriptures as well as from later times - when women were priests and teachers many thousands of years ago. But instead, here is a portion of Charter of Human Rights by King Cyrus the Great of Persia around 580 BC (when your people in the west were hunting wild pigs and each other). This charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay Aryan language (Old Persian) cuneiform cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon. In it, Cyrus the Great described his human treatment of the inhabitants of Babylonia after its conquest by the Iranians.
Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.
And until I am the monarch, I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. Until I am alive, I prevent unpaid, forced labor. To day, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights.
No one could be penalized for his or her relatives' faults. I prevent slavery and my governors and subordinates are obliged to prohibit exchanging men and women as slaves within their own ruling domains. Such a traditions should be exterminated the world over.
The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages.
[ajeya u r tilting @ the windmill & r exercised over trivial things - ]
"Tilting at windmills" means taking on impossible challenges - challenges which are futile. This is hardly that.
And it is not trivial either. But if it seems trivial to you, why are you arguing about it?
[again, gender equality, equality of all humans b4 the law, equal rights r universal values - we in the west have discovered them a little ahead of traditional societies - that doesnt make them western values ]
You're wrong on ALL counts. This is where education becomes important. Before arguing on "gut feel", read a little.
I could give you examples from Indian history - from Hindu scriptures as well as from later times - when women were priests and teachers many thousands of years ago. But instead, here is a portion of Charter of Human Rights by King Cyrus the Great of Persia around 580 BC (when your people in the west were hunting wild pigs and each other). This charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay Aryan language (Old Persian) cuneiform cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon. In it, Cyrus the Great described his human treatment of the inhabitants of Babylonia after its conquest by the Iranians.
Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.
And until I am the monarch, I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. Until I am alive, I prevent unpaid, forced labor. To day, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights.
No one could be penalized for his or her relatives' faults. I prevent slavery and my governors and subordinates are obliged to prohibit exchanging men and women as slaves within their own ruling domains. Such a traditions should be exterminated the world over.
The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages.
#195 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2007 8:35:06 am
Ajeya, Mohar, Arjun
A bit longish post, because I wish to propose the possibility of a very optimistic and beneficial position right in the middle.
But first, let's get DrDr's unending, usual tripe out of the way. Western values are not just western values, but they are definitely NOT universal values. All of us know that. DrDr can spin things anyway he wants. He too knows he has no option but to keep spinning.
Now, consider the undeniable truths in your own statements.
1. Mohar: One has to be a winner. Culture will follow.
2. Arjun: Indian people know their mind. They know what level of "Westernization" is good for them. Their freedom should be respected.
3. Ajeya: Indian culture brings something unique and beautiful, and it finally needs its champions (in a situation where people sell religion as they would sell soap, and numbers are used to clear means of constant warfare).
All those things are simultaneously true. Ajeya has to have more confidence. Indian people need, above all, to succeed, and in order to succeed, they should have every reasonable freedom to be as creative and open as they can be. One can always go back to the original source: "Let good thoughts come to us from everyside."
Like Islam, Indian culture pulls people in, on its own. It just draws very different sort of people, and that raises important issues that we need to appreciate, and prepare for (so we can live in peace, given the inescapable contradictions, therein).
Arjun, I suspect, has his finger on something very very important. There is an astonishing amount of overlap between our culture (once we move beyond clothes as such) and the "Western" culture or the "American" culture. Yes, the Pat Robertsons of the world and the missionary menace is a major problem that holds us all back. But otherwise, there is little that cannot be reconciled between the two great cultures.
We can do with a little more individualism and rule of impersonal laws, and they can do with a lot of what India offers. And anyone who lives in the US knows, they (again, I don't mean the evagelists and Pat Robertsons) are falling over themselves to get it.
Ajeya brings a sensibility that has been, to our major detriment, totally missing among us: Making sure, in our dealings with others, that others don't get away with just empty talk. What we have never ever realized that the wide world out there is - whether we like it or not, - a competitive world, in which everyone looks out (after they have done with their nice talk) for their own culture and tradition alone. Given the peculiarities of our specific thought processes, we haven't taken care to make sure we don't hurt ourselves in one-sided, blind hospitablity, (always assuming, falsely, that it was better to be nice than to be truthful).
Ajeya's point seems to be that we must be more aware, even more demanding, if needed, now. We don't have to close the great gates. That's not us. We don't have to remove Individual freedoms. That's not us again. But we cannot forget that competitition and the urge to eliminate the other has not gone away (nor it ever will diminish among many) just because other people mix more freely now.
Confident, open-eyed yet fair, free, committed to learning, and driven to succeed: Could that be our "new" ideal?
Thanks for listening.
A bit longish post, because I wish to propose the possibility of a very optimistic and beneficial position right in the middle.
But first, let's get DrDr's unending, usual tripe out of the way. Western values are not just western values, but they are definitely NOT universal values. All of us know that. DrDr can spin things anyway he wants. He too knows he has no option but to keep spinning.
Now, consider the undeniable truths in your own statements.
1. Mohar: One has to be a winner. Culture will follow.
2. Arjun: Indian people know their mind. They know what level of "Westernization" is good for them. Their freedom should be respected.
3. Ajeya: Indian culture brings something unique and beautiful, and it finally needs its champions (in a situation where people sell religion as they would sell soap, and numbers are used to clear means of constant warfare).
All those things are simultaneously true. Ajeya has to have more confidence. Indian people need, above all, to succeed, and in order to succeed, they should have every reasonable freedom to be as creative and open as they can be. One can always go back to the original source: "Let good thoughts come to us from everyside."
Like Islam, Indian culture pulls people in, on its own. It just draws very different sort of people, and that raises important issues that we need to appreciate, and prepare for (so we can live in peace, given the inescapable contradictions, therein).
Arjun, I suspect, has his finger on something very very important. There is an astonishing amount of overlap between our culture (once we move beyond clothes as such) and the "Western" culture or the "American" culture. Yes, the Pat Robertsons of the world and the missionary menace is a major problem that holds us all back. But otherwise, there is little that cannot be reconciled between the two great cultures.
We can do with a little more individualism and rule of impersonal laws, and they can do with a lot of what India offers. And anyone who lives in the US knows, they (again, I don't mean the evagelists and Pat Robertsons) are falling over themselves to get it.
Ajeya brings a sensibility that has been, to our major detriment, totally missing among us: Making sure, in our dealings with others, that others don't get away with just empty talk. What we have never ever realized that the wide world out there is - whether we like it or not, - a competitive world, in which everyone looks out (after they have done with their nice talk) for their own culture and tradition alone. Given the peculiarities of our specific thought processes, we haven't taken care to make sure we don't hurt ourselves in one-sided, blind hospitablity, (always assuming, falsely, that it was better to be nice than to be truthful).
Ajeya's point seems to be that we must be more aware, even more demanding, if needed, now. We don't have to close the great gates. That's not us. We don't have to remove Individual freedoms. That's not us again. But we cannot forget that competitition and the urge to eliminate the other has not gone away (nor it ever will diminish among many) just because other people mix more freely now.
Confident, open-eyed yet fair, free, committed to learning, and driven to succeed: Could that be our "new" ideal?
Thanks for listening.
#194 Posted by DrDr on July 30, 2007 6:23:15 am
ajeya u r tilting @ the windmill & r exercised over trivial things - again, gender equality, equality of all humans b4 the law, equal rights r universal values - we in the west have discovered them a little ahead of traditional societies - that doesnt make them western values
#193 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2007 12:10:46 am
#176 Posted by DrDr
[lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values ]
Oh, and another thing. Explain to me EXACTLY HOW calling your mother and father "Mummy" and "Daddy" from "mataji" and "pitaji" or "ma" and "baba" is somehow "moving towards Universal Values"?
[lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values ]
Oh, and another thing. Explain to me EXACTLY HOW calling your mother and father "Mummy" and "Daddy" from "mataji" and "pitaji" or "ma" and "baba" is somehow "moving towards Universal Values"?
#192 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 11:35:29 pm
#173 Posted by HP
what is going on in Pakistan is a little more than just attempted removal of Musharaf. ... The King of Saudi Arabia has already said goodbye to Musharaf. The Saudis double crossed Musharaf and they did that to initiate a much bigger game in Pakistan ...
Can you expand a bit on this, particularly the Saudi angle and the much bigger game you have referred to?
what is going on in Pakistan is a little more than just attempted removal of Musharaf. ... The King of Saudi Arabia has already said goodbye to Musharaf. The Saudis double crossed Musharaf and they did that to initiate a much bigger game in Pakistan ...
Can you expand a bit on this, particularly the Saudi angle and the much bigger game you have referred to?
#191 Posted by masadi on July 29, 2007 11:08:00 pm
HP writes "Removal of Musharaf is just a petty matter now."
A petty matter but a necessary petty matter for the game to proceed which makes it a non-petty matter...
A petty matter but a necessary petty matter for the game to proceed which makes it a non-petty matter...
#190 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 9:09:21 pm
#176 Posted by DrDr
[lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values ]
Let me say this then. Unlike concepts in astrophysics and molecular biology, we humans have had the SAME emotions and feelings for centuries. And in my opinion, we have evolved a very healthy, humane and cultured set of values for our society (if you discount the social ills that are in every society). There is no need to ape the west and pretend that these are more "evolved" values.
We are a society that was writing philosophy when the people in the west were hunting wild pigs. You CAN be brown, and lead the way. There is no rule that you have to be less pigmented to show the way for others, or at least, set your own path.
[lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values ]
Let me say this then. Unlike concepts in astrophysics and molecular biology, we humans have had the SAME emotions and feelings for centuries. And in my opinion, we have evolved a very healthy, humane and cultured set of values for our society (if you discount the social ills that are in every society). There is no need to ape the west and pretend that these are more "evolved" values.
We are a society that was writing philosophy when the people in the west were hunting wild pigs. You CAN be brown, and lead the way. There is no rule that you have to be less pigmented to show the way for others, or at least, set your own path.
#189 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 6:07:58 pm
#188 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
[You yourself are too smart to blindly swallow Wikipedia and other "reservoirs" of western morality blindly..]
Fair enough - IF you are able to produce any historical references for your assertions. I'll wait for you to post some.
[You yourself are too smart to blindly swallow Wikipedia and other "reservoirs" of western morality blindly..]
Fair enough - IF you are able to produce any historical references for your assertions. I'll wait for you to post some.
#188 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 29, 2007 5:57:32 pm
#187 ajeya {"You are a smart person. But even smart people sometimes believe in irrational things for various reasons - sometimes emotional reasons.
Here's a quote from wikipedia"}
Ajeya Sahib,
You yourself are too smart to blindly swallow Wikipedia and other "reservoirs" of western morality blindly. Please read some of the great "truths" written about history by the 19th century white orientalists or accounts of the treatment of Indians by 19th and early 20th century writers. Christians, especially those of European origin, could do no wrong. The world was full of savages and heathens. The Crusades were a just war. The killing and wholesale slaughter of Jews and Muslims was justified. The "Sepoy Mutiny" by the swarthy and ungrateful Indian natives was bravely put down by the "courage and valor" of the white Europeans in the name of God, Queen, and country.
Now, if you believe all that, I have some jewelry I want to sell you ...:)
Here's a quote from wikipedia"}
Ajeya Sahib,
You yourself are too smart to blindly swallow Wikipedia and other "reservoirs" of western morality blindly. Please read some of the great "truths" written about history by the 19th century white orientalists or accounts of the treatment of Indians by 19th and early 20th century writers. Christians, especially those of European origin, could do no wrong. The world was full of savages and heathens. The Crusades were a just war. The killing and wholesale slaughter of Jews and Muslims was justified. The "Sepoy Mutiny" by the swarthy and ungrateful Indian natives was bravely put down by the "courage and valor" of the white Europeans in the name of God, Queen, and country.
Now, if you believe all that, I have some jewelry I want to sell you ...:)
#187 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 5:45:56 pm
#186 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
[The Greeks and Bulgars would have converted to Islam three times a day if they had the chance. The Sultanate just wanted them to stay Orthodox to use them against the common enemy - the Roman Catholics. Please try to understand that Greeks welcomes Turkish conquest of the Balkans to save themselves from Latin Catholic dominance. There was no earnest attempt by the Turks from 1300s to 1800s to try to convert either the Greeks or the Bulgarians - not even the Serbs. ]
You are a smart person. But even smart people sometimes believe in irrational things for various reasons - sometimes emotional reasons.
Here's a quote from wikipedia
Religion< /b>
The Sultan regarded the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church as the leader of the Greeks within the empire. The Patriarch was accountable to the Sultan for the Greeks' good behavior, and in exchange he was given wide powers over the Greek community. The Patriarch controlled the courts and the schools, as well as the Church, throughout the Greek communities of the empire. This made Orthodox priests the effective rulers of Greek villages. Some Greek towns, such as Athens and Rhodes, retained municipal self-government, while others were put under Ottoman governors. Some areas, such as the Mani Peninsula in the Peloponnese, and parts of Crete (Sfakia) and Epirus, remained virtually independent. When the Ottomans fought the Venetians, the Greeks mostly sided with the Venetians. The Orthodox Church assisted in the preservation of the Greek heritage.
As a rule, the Ottomans did not require the Greeks to become Muslims, although many did so in order to avert the economic hardships of Ottoman rule. Many Greeks either became neo-martyrs such as Saint Efraim the Neo-Martyr or Saint Demetrios the Neo-martyr while others became Crypto-Christians (Greek Muslims who were secret practitioners of the Greek Orthodox faith) in order to avoid heavy taxes and at the same time express their identity by maintaining their secret ties to the Greek Orthodox Church. Crypto-Christians ran the risk of being killed if they were caught practicing a non-Muslim religion once they converted to Islam. Greeks who converted to Islam and were not Crypto-Christians were deemed Turks in the eyes of Orthodox Greeks.
The worst persecutions of Christians took place under the reign of Selim I, known as Selim the Grim, who attempted to stamp out Christianity from the Ottoman Empire. Selim ordered the confiscation of all Christian churches, and while this order was later rescinded, Christians were heavily persecuted during his era.[4]
Taxation and the "tribute of children"
"Young Greeks at the Mosque" (Jean Léon Gérôme, oil on canvas, 1865); this oil painting portrays Greek Muslims at prayer in a mosque)Greeks also paid a land tax and a tax on trade, but these were either collected irregularly by the inefficient Ottoman administration. Provided they paid their taxes and gave no trouble, they were left to themselves. Greeks, like other Christians, were also made to pay the jizya, or Islamic poll-tax which all non-Muslims in the empire were forced to pay in order to practice their religion. Non-Muslims did not serve in the Sultan's army, but young boys were forcibly converted to Islam and made to serve in the Ottoman military..
These practices are called the "tribute of children" (devshirmeh) (in Greek παιδομάζωμα paidomazoma, meaning "child gathering"), whereby every Christian community was required to give one son in five to be raised as a Muslim and enrolled in the corps of Janissaries (yenicheri or "new force"), elite units of the Ottoman army. This imposition, at first, aroused surprisingly little opposition[citation needed] as the Greeks were a conquered people and could not offer effective resistance. Still, there was much passive resistance, for example Greek folk lore tells of mothers crippling their sons to avoid their abduction. Nevertheless, entrance into the corps (accompanied by conversion to Islam) offered Greek boys the opportunity to advance as high as governor or even Grand Vizier.
Opposition of the Greek populace to taxing or paidomazoma resulted in grave consequences. For example, in 1705 an Ottoman official was sent from Naoussa in Macedonia to search and conscript new Janissaries and was killed by Greek rebels who resisted the burden of the devshirmeh. The rebels were subsequently beheaded and their severed heads were displayed in the city of Thessaloniki.[5] The "tribute of children" was greatly feared as Greek families would often have to relinquish their own sons who would return later as their oppressors. The Greek historian Papparigopoulos stated that approximately one million Greeks were conscripted into Janissaries during the Ottoman era.
[The Greeks and Bulgars would have converted to Islam three times a day if they had the chance. The Sultanate just wanted them to stay Orthodox to use them against the common enemy - the Roman Catholics. Please try to understand that Greeks welcomes Turkish conquest of the Balkans to save themselves from Latin Catholic dominance. There was no earnest attempt by the Turks from 1300s to 1800s to try to convert either the Greeks or the Bulgarians - not even the Serbs. ]
You are a smart person. But even smart people sometimes believe in irrational things for various reasons - sometimes emotional reasons.
Here's a quote from wikipedia
Religion< /b>
The Sultan regarded the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church as the leader of the Greeks within the empire. The Patriarch was accountable to the Sultan for the Greeks' good behavior, and in exchange he was given wide powers over the Greek community. The Patriarch controlled the courts and the schools, as well as the Church, throughout the Greek communities of the empire. This made Orthodox priests the effective rulers of Greek villages. Some Greek towns, such as Athens and Rhodes, retained municipal self-government, while others were put under Ottoman governors. Some areas, such as the Mani Peninsula in the Peloponnese, and parts of Crete (Sfakia) and Epirus, remained virtually independent. When the Ottomans fought the Venetians, the Greeks mostly sided with the Venetians. The Orthodox Church assisted in the preservation of the Greek heritage.
As a rule, the Ottomans did not require the Greeks to become Muslims, although many did so in order to avert the economic hardships of Ottoman rule. Many Greeks either became neo-martyrs such as Saint Efraim the Neo-Martyr or Saint Demetrios the Neo-martyr while others became Crypto-Christians (Greek Muslims who were secret practitioners of the Greek Orthodox faith) in order to avoid heavy taxes and at the same time express their identity by maintaining their secret ties to the Greek Orthodox Church. Crypto-Christians ran the risk of being killed if they were caught practicing a non-Muslim religion once they converted to Islam. Greeks who converted to Islam and were not Crypto-Christians were deemed Turks in the eyes of Orthodox Greeks.
The worst persecutions of Christians took place under the reign of Selim I, known as Selim the Grim, who attempted to stamp out Christianity from the Ottoman Empire. Selim ordered the confiscation of all Christian churches, and while this order was later rescinded, Christians were heavily persecuted during his era.[4]
Taxation and the "tribute of children"
"Young Greeks at the Mosque" (Jean Léon Gérôme, oil on canvas, 1865); this oil painting portrays Greek Muslims at prayer in a mosque)Greeks also paid a land tax and a tax on trade, but these were either collected irregularly by the inefficient Ottoman administration. Provided they paid their taxes and gave no trouble, they were left to themselves. Greeks, like other Christians, were also made to pay the jizya, or Islamic poll-tax which all non-Muslims in the empire were forced to pay in order to practice their religion. Non-Muslims did not serve in the Sultan's army, but young boys were forcibly converted to Islam and made to serve in the Ottoman military..
These practices are called the "tribute of children" (devshirmeh) (in Greek παιδομάζωμα paidomazoma, meaning "child gathering"), whereby every Christian community was required to give one son in five to be raised as a Muslim and enrolled in the corps of Janissaries (yenicheri or "new force"), elite units of the Ottoman army. This imposition, at first, aroused surprisingly little opposition[citation needed] as the Greeks were a conquered people and could not offer effective resistance. Still, there was much passive resistance, for example Greek folk lore tells of mothers crippling their sons to avoid their abduction. Nevertheless, entrance into the corps (accompanied by conversion to Islam) offered Greek boys the opportunity to advance as high as governor or even Grand Vizier.
Opposition of the Greek populace to taxing or paidomazoma resulted in grave consequences. For example, in 1705 an Ottoman official was sent from Naoussa in Macedonia to search and conscript new Janissaries and was killed by Greek rebels who resisted the burden of the devshirmeh. The rebels were subsequently beheaded and their severed heads were displayed in the city of Thessaloniki.[5] The "tribute of children" was greatly feared as Greek families would often have to relinquish their own sons who would return later as their oppressors. The Greek historian Papparigopoulos stated that approximately one million Greeks were conscripted into Janissaries during the Ottoman era.
#186 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 29, 2007 5:28:52 pm
#184 ajeya {"No. Your premise is wrong. Not ALL people give in to coercion and greed. Only some do."}
Ajeya Sahib,
The Greeks and Bulgars would have converted to Islam three times a day if they had the chance. The Sultanate just wanted them to stay Orthodox to use them against the common enemy - the Roman Catholics. Please try to understand that Greeks welcomes Turkish conquest of the Balkans to save themselves from Latin Catholic dominance. There was no earnest attempt by the Turks from 1300s to 1800s to try to convert either the Greeks or the Bulgarians - not even the Serbs.
Ajeya Sahib,
The Greeks and Bulgars would have converted to Islam three times a day if they had the chance. The Sultanate just wanted them to stay Orthodox to use them against the common enemy - the Roman Catholics. Please try to understand that Greeks welcomes Turkish conquest of the Balkans to save themselves from Latin Catholic dominance. There was no earnest attempt by the Turks from 1300s to 1800s to try to convert either the Greeks or the Bulgarians - not even the Serbs.
#185 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 29, 2007 5:25:48 pm
#77 Jang {"i thought the best bet for return to democracy would have been for altaph bhai and BB (two secularoons with biggest grassroot organizations) to come together. but that cannot be ..so why do you think that the momeen parties will increase the girth of their ghaghra to include more? "}
Jang Bhayya,
Because supposedly Islam has a much more egalitarian and unifying spirit than either MQM or PPP because of their ethno-centric philosophies. It doesn't appear that way right now, but believe me the fundo fanatics are a passing phase. We have been there before - Qarmatians, Kharajites, Almoravides, and Almohades.
Jang Bhayya,
Because supposedly Islam has a much more egalitarian and unifying spirit than either MQM or PPP because of their ethno-centric philosophies. It doesn't appear that way right now, but believe me the fundo fanatics are a passing phase. We have been there before - Qarmatians, Kharajites, Almoravides, and Almohades.
#184 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 5:25:25 pm
#182 Posted by Salim_Chauhan
[Ajeya Sahib,
I beg to disagree. If tax cuts were enough to convert most Bosnians to Islam, then all Greeks, all Bulgars, most Romanians, and most Serbs would be Muslims as well - the Greeks and Bulgarians were under Ottoman rule for quite a while longer and the Serbs, Romanians, and Croats almost as long. There had to be something else - Bosnians were different from both the Catholic Croats and the Orthodox Serbs in their faith. ]
No. Your premise is wrong. Not ALL people give in to coercion and greed. Only some do.
[Ajeya Sahib,
I beg to disagree. If tax cuts were enough to convert most Bosnians to Islam, then all Greeks, all Bulgars, most Romanians, and most Serbs would be Muslims as well - the Greeks and Bulgarians were under Ottoman rule for quite a while longer and the Serbs, Romanians, and Croats almost as long. There had to be something else - Bosnians were different from both the Catholic Croats and the Orthodox Serbs in their faith. ]
No. Your premise is wrong. Not ALL people give in to coercion and greed. Only some do.
#183 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 5:23:32 pm
#180 Posted by stuka
[" Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease."]
That one hit too close to home, eh, birdbrain?
As I said in my last post, if you don't like me voicing my opinions, then take a hike.
erm, and who da fukk made you the doctor?
[" Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease."]
That one hit too close to home, eh, birdbrain?
As I said in my last post, if you don't like me voicing my opinions, then take a hike.
erm, and who da fukk made you the doctor?
#182 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on July 29, 2007 5:22:56 pm
#125 Posted by ajeya on July 28, 2007 9:34:06 pm
{"Regarding #121 Posted by echoboom
[Islam spread over the next 400 years of Ottoman rule, mostly thanks to tax cuts and other benefits given to those who converted. ]
Exactly the point I have made so many times. It is not spiritual enlightenment, but financial compulsions (amongst other anti-non-muslim measures) that forced most non-muslims to convert in non-Muslim countries ruled by muslim invaders."}
Ajeya Sahib,
I beg to disagree. If tax cuts were enough to convert most Bosnians to Islam, then all Greeks, all Bulgars, most Romanians, and most Serbs would be Muslims as well - the Greeks and Bulgarians were under Ottoman rule for quite a while longer and the Serbs, Romanians, and Croats almost as long. There had to be something else - Bosnians were different from both the Catholic Croats and the Orthodox Serbs in their faith.
{"Regarding #121 Posted by echoboom
[Islam spread over the next 400 years of Ottoman rule, mostly thanks to tax cuts and other benefits given to those who converted. ]
Exactly the point I have made so many times. It is not spiritual enlightenment, but financial compulsions (amongst other anti-non-muslim measures) that forced most non-muslims to convert in non-Muslim countries ruled by muslim invaders."}
Ajeya Sahib,
I beg to disagree. If tax cuts were enough to convert most Bosnians to Islam, then all Greeks, all Bulgars, most Romanians, and most Serbs would be Muslims as well - the Greeks and Bulgarians were under Ottoman rule for quite a while longer and the Serbs, Romanians, and Croats almost as long. There had to be something else - Bosnians were different from both the Catholic Croats and the Orthodox Serbs in their faith.
#181 Posted by khurram on July 29, 2007 5:14:00 pm
Re: # 154, mohar11
"The bottom line is: success..."
Indeed!
And that is the secret behind the mass conversions to Islam in the Middle East.
"The bottom line is: success..."
Indeed!
And that is the secret behind the mass conversions to Islam in the Middle East.
#180 Posted by stuka on July 29, 2007 5:01:51 pm
" Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease."
erm, and who da fukk made you the doctor?
erm, and who da fukk made you the doctor?
#179 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 29, 2007 4:28:34 pm
I do not agree with your thinking. I agree with Masadi it is basic arrangement like chase game done by usa elites, UAE royal family, King Abdulla and they control general as well as all parties including PPP and army.The chinese will always support whoever rules IBad. They have commercial interest which will be best served by any rulers and they will refuse to use any capital as there is no need. The arrangement is necessarily bad. In this case the arrangement is best all all players and kingmakers and especially the people of pakistan. PAKISTAN NEED STABILITY.
Mr.General is still good man for country and will be atlest in near future , there is no alternative to president Musharaff. All king makers are thinking they are handling pakistan players it is true to some extent but two players are to smart one is general other is MQM chief. Mqm is too strong and deciplined and dedicated to its people to be "managed". Altaf will accept outside hand if his hands are becoming stronger and his opponents will be hurt. No ruler can control with out consent of MQM supremo. Actually he is most man to be watched. Altaf BB may combine to help president to continue , for bb this is short cut to becoming ruler and mount crown. As usual she is showing typiical corroupt way and all her short cut will lead to her on destruction. Shoert cuts are slippary. MQM supreme will support general as a insurance aginst BB starting murderous attacks on MQM or reviving MQM H. It will not be smooth journey soon interests of native sindhis and urban sindhi urdus will collide and inevitable fatricide will start of 80s. It is strange the this mother all secret deals are going on foreign soils under leadership of foreign heads is not healthy sign. I am told musharaff will dissolve elected bodies and will call NS , BB and AH all threee to return from England and help the healing. AH will not come till his parties elders and student advice him to rerurn for his chances of terror/ murder etc. PMLQ will be lead by Choudhary Sahib. MMA and PMLQ both are lost. We have lost freedom to british but it is joyopus to see the same country is hosting AH, BB and NS.
Army can follow "hina lesson" when there was riot of stiudents in their capital they crushed ruthlessly same with splitist Ughars and both are down. Open red mosque for believers but flood all area wiyth undercover gaents as china does and punish severly if some body makes trouble.
Any way let us thanks USA, KSA for forcing general and BB to start the new start.
Mr.General is still good man for country and will be atlest in near future , there is no alternative to president Musharaff. All king makers are thinking they are handling pakistan players it is true to some extent but two players are to smart one is general other is MQM chief. Mqm is too strong and deciplined and dedicated to its people to be "managed". Altaf will accept outside hand if his hands are becoming stronger and his opponents will be hurt. No ruler can control with out consent of MQM supremo. Actually he is most man to be watched. Altaf BB may combine to help president to continue , for bb this is short cut to becoming ruler and mount crown. As usual she is showing typiical corroupt way and all her short cut will lead to her on destruction. Shoert cuts are slippary. MQM supreme will support general as a insurance aginst BB starting murderous attacks on MQM or reviving MQM H. It will not be smooth journey soon interests of native sindhis and urban sindhi urdus will collide and inevitable fatricide will start of 80s. It is strange the this mother all secret deals are going on foreign soils under leadership of foreign heads is not healthy sign. I am told musharaff will dissolve elected bodies and will call NS , BB and AH all threee to return from England and help the healing. AH will not come till his parties elders and student advice him to rerurn for his chances of terror/ murder etc. PMLQ will be lead by Choudhary Sahib. MMA and PMLQ both are lost. We have lost freedom to british but it is joyopus to see the same country is hosting AH, BB and NS.
Army can follow "hina lesson" when there was riot of stiudents in their capital they crushed ruthlessly same with splitist Ughars and both are down. Open red mosque for believers but flood all area wiyth undercover gaents as china does and punish severly if some body makes trouble.
Any way let us thanks USA, KSA for forcing general and BB to start the new start.
#178 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 4:11:46 pm
#177 Posted by arjun2
[Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.
people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"? ]
You have your opinions that you generously share with the rest of us here at Chowk. I would think I am able to do the same.
It you have a problem with that, put a sock in it.
And since you mention it, wearing pants instead of dhotis is one thing. Dressing styles have crossed national borders repeatedly through history. A lot of Indian dresses are fashionable in the US now. But changing your parents' names to Mummy and Daddy reeks of low self esteem and low class of a very high order. Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease.
[Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.
people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"? ]
You have your opinions that you generously share with the rest of us here at Chowk. I would think I am able to do the same.
It you have a problem with that, put a sock in it.
And since you mention it, wearing pants instead of dhotis is one thing. Dressing styles have crossed national borders repeatedly through history. A lot of Indian dresses are fashionable in the US now. But changing your parents' names to Mummy and Daddy reeks of low self esteem and low class of a very high order. Celebrating Valentine's Day when the vast majority of Christians look down on Hinduism, is another example of low-class and lower-than-zero self-respect. And these are merely a few symptoms of a much more widespread disease.
#177 Posted by arjun2 on July 29, 2007 3:36:30 pm
#175 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 12:09:06 pm
Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.
people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"?
Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own.
people have made the choice...they want to wear pants instead of dhotis...you're free to wear a dhoti...and if they want to celebrate v-day, who're YOU to decide that's an unacceptable level of "westernization"?
#176 Posted by DrDr on July 29, 2007 3:28:22 pm
ajeya
lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values
lemme offer an outsider's perspective - there r indeed universal values that we all r moving towards - the west got there 1st doesnt make them western values
#175 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 12:09:06 pm
Our society as a whole is drifting in a particular direction. Idiots think that they are adopting "MORE EVOLVED", "UNIVERSAL" values, when they are actually adopting "WESTERN" values, and abandoning their own. This not no flash in the pan. This is a widespread trend - all over the country - everywhere. Pimple-faced adolescents all over the country are redefining social values - they are convinced their forefathers were all backward-thinking idiots. And they are being egged on by the media and their yuppie parents.
#174 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 12:01:11 pm
#171 Posted by mohar11
[Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it... ]
The fact that you raise the issue of "traitor" tells me that you are not understanding where I am coming from. This is not a war. This is not a competition, where we are trying to impose our culture onto theirs, and we are suffering setbacks in this "agenda" because of "traitors".
No. This is ABOUT US, Indians. Period. This is about OUR civilization. Our culture, and OUR values.
[Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?
Wrong. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY START WEARING SAREES. What matters is we, as a culture, are losing faith in the very moorings of our civilization. The Westerners - they have self-respect. They value whatever culture they have. They might wear the occasional saree, or watch the occasional bollywood movie. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO CALL THEIR PARENTS "MATAJI" AND "PITAJI".
[Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :) ]
"Complaining" and "lamenting" are not the same thing, btw.
Conservative Christians are no different than conservative followers of any other Semitic religion - they hate anything that is outside their "holy book". Their complaints are different in nature than what I am talking about. The Conservative Christians are not worried that Americans will lose their culture - they know that they won't. They are always paranoid about losing their numerical superiority. Like all these Abrahamic religions, they are fighting for numbers - whoever has the biggest number - wins.
[Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it... ]
The fact that you raise the issue of "traitor" tells me that you are not understanding where I am coming from. This is not a war. This is not a competition, where we are trying to impose our culture onto theirs, and we are suffering setbacks in this "agenda" because of "traitors".
No. This is ABOUT US, Indians. Period. This is about OUR civilization. Our culture, and OUR values.
[Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?
Wrong. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY START WEARING SAREES. What matters is we, as a culture, are losing faith in the very moorings of our civilization. The Westerners - they have self-respect. They value whatever culture they have. They might wear the occasional saree, or watch the occasional bollywood movie. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO CALL THEIR PARENTS "MATAJI" AND "PITAJI".
[Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :) ]
"Complaining" and "lamenting" are not the same thing, btw.
Conservative Christians are no different than conservative followers of any other Semitic religion - they hate anything that is outside their "holy book". Their complaints are different in nature than what I am talking about. The Conservative Christians are not worried that Americans will lose their culture - they know that they won't. They are always paranoid about losing their numerical superiority. Like all these Abrahamic religions, they are fighting for numbers - whoever has the biggest number - wins.
#173 Posted by HP on July 29, 2007 11:55:30 am
Asadi,
“Sometimes western especially CIA sources need to be read carefully because the preempt the agenda of the US elite,”
Reading and learning is important I agree with that. My point was there is nothing in the stratfar report that you did not know already. People of lesser intelligence and political understanding often quote newspaper reports and analysis by some nincompoops reporters as the final word on the issue.
The questions in the current Pakistani equation are: what the US would gain by removing Musharaf and why go through an elaborate arrangement of moving all the pieces they have in Pakistan to force his removal?
The CJ issue is a case in point. This was too elaborate and too subtle for most of the people but it was open to some that the CJ or the lawyers had no guts to oppose Musharaf, if they did not have support in some quarters in the army itself or were not encouraged by some US allied groups in the establishment. The attempt to confine the lawyers’ movement to Punjab alone and then keeping the issue of Lal mosque alive in Islamabad clearly point to the possibility that what is going on in Pakistan is a little more than just attempted removal of Musharaf. He is just a small puppy who would have been gone with a right call. He is just going through a role assigned to him.
I would like to emphasis that Benazir, if made PM of Pakistan, will not able to control the islamist without the army’s help and army’s help to her would not be forthcoming due to several historical reasons. Which to me suggests that she will be the one who would seek the US help inside Pakistan I think she has agreed to be another Malaiki in Pakistan.
The King of Saudi Arabia has already said goodbye to Musharaf. The Saudis double crossed Musharaf and they did that to initiate a much bigger game in Pakistan Removal of Musharaf is just a petty matter now.
#172 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 11:53:29 am
[... Just let me know periodically whether "Indian culture will be fine"...]
Will do, my friend... just relax... On presidential races - the lady already won in India... and the lady is going to win in US...
Sania Mirza is just a flash in the pan - she is not going anywhere...
Will do, my friend... just relax... On presidential races - the lady already won in India... and the lady is going to win in US...
Sania Mirza is just a flash in the pan - she is not going anywhere...
#171 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 11:46:35 am
ajeya
[...The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world...]
Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it...
Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?
Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :)
[...The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world...]
Our values and traditions are doing just fine, my friend, occassional "traitors" notwithstanding :)... I am not sure why you feel so insecure about it...
Like you said - there is some "cross-cultural pollinations" going on - that's it... Now - all we have to do is "pollinate" back into western culture as much western culture "pollinates" into our culture... right?
Just like you complain about mother's day - conservative cristians in US complain about Yoga invading their culture - they rant against hindu culture that's seeping in form of Yoga... can you believe those losers? :)
#170 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 11:40:34 am
#168 Posted by mohar11
[Also - if you check in your neigboring village - there will be people who name their kids Gangaram and Basanti, call their parents mataji and pitaji and yet neglect them in their old age. happens all the time...]
But they are MUCH less likely to do that than their westernized counterparts. I can see that all over India today, as compared to when I was growing up.
See? You've just put forward an argument that is invalid.
[Also - if you check in your neigboring village - there will be people who name their kids Gangaram and Basanti, call their parents mataji and pitaji and yet neglect them in their old age. happens all the time...]
But they are MUCH less likely to do that than their westernized counterparts. I can see that all over India today, as compared to when I was growing up.
See? You've just put forward an argument that is invalid.
#169 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 11:37:20 am
#166 Posted by mohar11
[This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...]
What "rumour-mongering"? Against what "neighbor"? What "situation" are you talking about? The "grand clash of cultures theory" is all yours. As far as I am concerned, there is no "clash" - one is simply replacing the other.
[Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)]
With soothesayers like you, I feel better already. Just let me know periodically whether "Indian culture will be fine". Do you also forecast Presidential races? And whether Sania Mirza is going to win?
[This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...]
What "rumour-mongering"? Against what "neighbor"? What "situation" are you talking about? The "grand clash of cultures theory" is all yours. As far as I am concerned, there is no "clash" - one is simply replacing the other.
[Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)]
With soothesayers like you, I feel better already. Just let me know periodically whether "Indian culture will be fine". Do you also forecast Presidential races? And whether Sania Mirza is going to win?
#168 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 11:33:56 am
Also - if you check in your neigboring village - there will be people who name their kids Gangaram and Basanti, call their parents mataji and pitaji and yet neglect them in their old age. happens all the time...
#167 Posted by bubba on July 29, 2007 11:24:09 am
#157 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 8:16:32 am
Mostly agreed. What does the PPP have to do to be considered as a party that delivers? For an ordinary Pakistani on the street what does it really mean?
Let me take a stab at it, and see if you can agree on some of my thoughts:
1. Law and order situation in all of Pakistan. As a preamble the judiciary was made somewhat stronger.
2. Getting rid of the extremists in NWFP. This could easily happen with moderate pathans. To get rid of the extremists, Uncle Sam is willing to spend over $1B only in the NWFP.
3. Since Uncle Sam is on a different platform, JI will now be left with very few seats. Except of a few puff-puff and a few huff-huff, JI will be left for a few fundamentalists. Eventually, Qazi Hussain would be included in the same category as Mullah Diesel.
And all of this is because the Chinese want to spend over $15B in Pakistan. Can you see why mullahism has to go into sunset?
Mostly agreed. What does the PPP have to do to be considered as a party that delivers? For an ordinary Pakistani on the street what does it really mean?
Let me take a stab at it, and see if you can agree on some of my thoughts:
1. Law and order situation in all of Pakistan. As a preamble the judiciary was made somewhat stronger.
2. Getting rid of the extremists in NWFP. This could easily happen with moderate pathans. To get rid of the extremists, Uncle Sam is willing to spend over $1B only in the NWFP.
3. Since Uncle Sam is on a different platform, JI will now be left with very few seats. Except of a few puff-puff and a few huff-huff, JI will be left for a few fundamentalists. Eventually, Qazi Hussain would be included in the same category as Mullah Diesel.
And all of this is because the Chinese want to spend over $15B in Pakistan. Can you see why mullahism has to go into sunset?
#166 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 11:21:30 am
ajeya
This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...
Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)
This is simply case of roumour-mongering against your neighbor - you may not fully understand their situation - so you are making assumptions and putting it up under a grand clash of cultures theory...
Rest assured - Indian culture will be fine with couple of kids named bobbie and pinky... don't worry too much... :)
#165 Posted by masadi on July 29, 2007 10:23:42 am
HP writes "asadi,
A person of your grasp of Pakistani politics does not need to quote from the western sources."
Thanks for the kind comments but you think too highly of me. I'm still in the process of muddling through this disaster that is Pakistan. Sometimes western especially CIA sources need to be read carefully because the preempt the agenda of the US elite, that is where their major use lies...
A person of your grasp of Pakistani politics does not need to quote from the western sources."
Thanks for the kind comments but you think too highly of me. I'm still in the process of muddling through this disaster that is Pakistan. Sometimes western especially CIA sources need to be read carefully because the preempt the agenda of the US elite, that is where their major use lies...
#164 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 10:14:34 am
It does not matter to me that Americans are wearing sarees or doing yoga. It matters to me that we Indians are losing our Indian values and adopting "Universal" values - which are really Western values - PERMANENTLY. I see this process as non-reversible - with horrendous effects on the society that will be felt more and more down the road.
#163 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 10:03:15 am
#154 Posted by mohar11
[The bottom line is: success... people are drawn towards success... the tremendous success of america has drawn everybody towards their culture... on similar note, the ongoing success of china is now drawing americans towards the chinese... these days, american children are being advised to learn mandarin, because chinese are supposed to be the future power...]
Yes. But they still call their parents "father" and "mother". Always will.
[In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...]
Would have been nice if Indians were slightly less proud of that fact.
[So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed... ]
You're not understanding the issue very well, mohar. I wish you would not use these martial themes, but in any case, this is not a "WAR", the question is not how to make westerners become more "Indian". The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world.
[The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes...]
That was never the aim. You misunderstood the whole issue.
[he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...]
No "wars" here. Therefore no irony.
[The bottom line is: success... people are drawn towards success... the tremendous success of america has drawn everybody towards their culture... on similar note, the ongoing success of china is now drawing americans towards the chinese... these days, american children are being advised to learn mandarin, because chinese are supposed to be the future power...]
Yes. But they still call their parents "father" and "mother". Always will.
[In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...]
Would have been nice if Indians were slightly less proud of that fact.
[So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed... ]
You're not understanding the issue very well, mohar. I wish you would not use these martial themes, but in any case, this is not a "WAR", the question is not how to make westerners become more "Indian". The question is how not to forget OUR OWN values and traditions - which I have the highest regard for, in the world.
[The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes...]
That was never the aim. You misunderstood the whole issue.
[he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...]
No "wars" here. Therefore no irony.
#162 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 9:48:54 am
#152 Posted by mohar11
[we are all free people - each can decide for their own...]
I never debated that. Of course we are.
[If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that?]
The locality where I come from in India - is filled with lonely old couples who have worked night and day and spent their last rupee to give their son a good education. Now that son is living abroad with his westernized wife - he has named his son "Bobbie" and his daughter "Pinky" - once in a while he will call up his "Mom" and "Dad" and say "how are you, Dad", and send a card on "Father's Day". But when the "Dad" has a terrifying bout of ischemia in the middle of the night in India with nobody but his terrified wife by his side, he is busy living it up in the USA with his wife wearing the latest thongs and showing off the butt-crack to good effect.
[.. how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...]
Maybe not Mother's day, but there has been this sense that India's culture and traditions are just "hypocrisy" and "old-fashioned nonsense" for the last few decades - to be westernized is commonly understood as being "advanced". People who are in their forties were as much a victim of this low-class thought process as kids are today.
[You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead...]
I don't speak for zeemax, but you seem to be the one fighting against your shadow - your own arguments.
[people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...
Just let people be... everything will be just fine...]
Actually this is not necessarily true. There are MANY cultures that have died out under pressure from other cultures - the Native American culture, for example. And EVEN IF our culture survives - this does not excuse the absymally low self-respect and class exhibited by Indians nowadays.
[BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you? ]
Old enough to look at things from a distance in perspective, and judge dispassionately.
[we are all free people - each can decide for their own...]
I never debated that. Of course we are.
[If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that?]
The locality where I come from in India - is filled with lonely old couples who have worked night and day and spent their last rupee to give their son a good education. Now that son is living abroad with his westernized wife - he has named his son "Bobbie" and his daughter "Pinky" - once in a while he will call up his "Mom" and "Dad" and say "how are you, Dad", and send a card on "Father's Day". But when the "Dad" has a terrifying bout of ischemia in the middle of the night in India with nobody but his terrified wife by his side, he is busy living it up in the USA with his wife wearing the latest thongs and showing off the butt-crack to good effect.
[.. how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...]
Maybe not Mother's day, but there has been this sense that India's culture and traditions are just "hypocrisy" and "old-fashioned nonsense" for the last few decades - to be westernized is commonly understood as being "advanced". People who are in their forties were as much a victim of this low-class thought process as kids are today.
[You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead...]
I don't speak for zeemax, but you seem to be the one fighting against your shadow - your own arguments.
[people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...
Just let people be... everything will be just fine...]
Actually this is not necessarily true. There are MANY cultures that have died out under pressure from other cultures - the Native American culture, for example. And EVEN IF our culture survives - this does not excuse the absymally low self-respect and class exhibited by Indians nowadays.
[BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you? ]
Old enough to look at things from a distance in perspective, and judge dispassionately.
#161 Posted by ajeya on July 29, 2007 9:48:36 am
mohar11, zeemax
Globalization is ineviteble. With the distances shrinking, and the populations becoming more racially mixed across the world, there is bound to be cross-cultural pollinations. There is NOTHING wrong in that. In fact, for cultures to grow and evolve, this is absolutely vital. We don't realize it, but cross-cultural pollination has shaped our history through the millenia. You realize this when you see Moorish architecture in Hispanic strip malls in the US. Yoga is a household word across the USA and the world. I don't have a problem with any of this.
As far as the young go - there are youths in the Netherlands and in Austria that are dressing and sounding like rappers from NYC. Most kids around the world are easily influenced - they are unthinking and uncritical - they go with the flow. BUT THEY USUALLY GROW OUT OF IT. Look at a young businessman from Germany or Sweden - he knows that what he did when he was young was part of his growing up process. BUT he is rooted in his country's culture and history. HE DOESN"T REALLY THINK THAT THE RAPPERS FROM NYC ARE CULTURALLY SUPERIOR TO HIS CULTURE OR TRADITIONS. But Indians today, of MY GENERATION EVEN, AS WELL AS THE YOUNG GENERATIONS, ARE DIFFERENT. They are convinced that our forefathers were all wrong. They are ASHAMED - ASHAMED to call their own parents "mataji" or "pitaji", or "ma" or "baba". They think it is some kind of advancement to become more westernized - they think that ALL THEY HAVE TO DO TO BECOME MORE ECONOMICALLY SUCCESSFUL LIKE THE WEST IS TO BECOME MORE LIKE THEM. IMITATE THEM, AND THE REST WILL FALL IN PLACE. They don't realize that the men and women that are responsible for India's achievements are mostly people from traditional Indian backgrounds.
I had a discussion with Hamidm long time ago somewhat along these lines. He felt that eating with your hands was uncivilized. THIS IS PRECISELY THE KIND OF THINKING I AM TALKING ABOUT. Some years ago, some reporter overheard George Bush senior talking to his son at a party. He was joking with his son - referring to the women at the party as "pussies". In India, the slum dwellers that make a dollar a day, who squat on railroad tracks to defecate, WOULD NEVER talk about "pussies" with HIS son - THAT'S CALLED CULTURE. 6-lane highways is not culture. Conserving the rainforests is not culture. Culture and civilization - at least in MY book have to do with different things - things that are much less tangible. Gandhi had many flaws, but I really like a comment he made to a Western reporter once - when asked what he thought of "western Civilization", he said - "I think it's a great idea".
Globalization is ineviteble. With the distances shrinking, and the populations becoming more racially mixed across the world, there is bound to be cross-cultural pollinations. There is NOTHING wrong in that. In fact, for cultures to grow and evolve, this is absolutely vital. We don't realize it, but cross-cultural pollination has shaped our history through the millenia. You realize this when you see Moorish architecture in Hispanic strip malls in the US. Yoga is a household word across the USA and the world. I don't have a problem with any of this.
As far as the young go - there are youths in the Netherlands and in Austria that are dressing and sounding like rappers from NYC. Most kids around the world are easily influenced - they are unthinking and uncritical - they go with the flow. BUT THEY USUALLY GROW OUT OF IT. Look at a young businessman from Germany or Sweden - he knows that what he did when he was young was part of his growing up process. BUT he is rooted in his country's culture and history. HE DOESN"T REALLY THINK THAT THE RAPPERS FROM NYC ARE CULTURALLY SUPERIOR TO HIS CULTURE OR TRADITIONS. But Indians today, of MY GENERATION EVEN, AS WELL AS THE YOUNG GENERATIONS, ARE DIFFERENT. They are convinced that our forefathers were all wrong. They are ASHAMED - ASHAMED to call their own parents "mataji" or "pitaji", or "ma" or "baba". They think it is some kind of advancement to become more westernized - they think that ALL THEY HAVE TO DO TO BECOME MORE ECONOMICALLY SUCCESSFUL LIKE THE WEST IS TO BECOME MORE LIKE THEM. IMITATE THEM, AND THE REST WILL FALL IN PLACE. They don't realize that the men and women that are responsible for India's achievements are mostly people from traditional Indian backgrounds.
I had a discussion with Hamidm long time ago somewhat along these lines. He felt that eating with your hands was uncivilized. THIS IS PRECISELY THE KIND OF THINKING I AM TALKING ABOUT. Some years ago, some reporter overheard George Bush senior talking to his son at a party. He was joking with his son - referring to the women at the party as "pussies". In India, the slum dwellers that make a dollar a day, who squat on railroad tracks to defecate, WOULD NEVER talk about "pussies" with HIS son - THAT'S CALLED CULTURE. 6-lane highways is not culture. Conserving the rainforests is not culture. Culture and civilization - at least in MY book have to do with different things - things that are much less tangible. Gandhi had many flaws, but I really like a comment he made to a Western reporter once - when asked what he thought of "western Civilization", he said - "I think it's a great idea".
#160 Posted by Pardesi on July 29, 2007 9:04:59 am
#159
sorry to interject .. if an american company opens a sports shoe factory in china or call center in india, poor people in those countries get jobs .. the new employer knows nothing about local customs, religious differences or caste system .. all he is looking for is the most hard working employees .. and that will break all kinds of social barriers in the developing economies.
Americans will loose jobs and will need to reinvent themselves and learn to compete again. I think if handled with little more benefits and retraining, western workers' opposition can be overcome.
Globalization has potential to be win/win for all.
sorry to interject .. if an american company opens a sports shoe factory in china or call center in india, poor people in those countries get jobs .. the new employer knows nothing about local customs, religious differences or caste system .. all he is looking for is the most hard working employees .. and that will break all kinds of social barriers in the developing economies.
Americans will loose jobs and will need to reinvent themselves and learn to compete again. I think if handled with little more benefits and retraining, western workers' opposition can be overcome.
Globalization has potential to be win/win for all.
#159 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 8:28:25 am
But Mohar, there's one observation I need to make.
Globalisation is based on trickle-down, and that doesn't work.
Globalisation is based on trickle-down, and that doesn't work.
#157 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 8:16:32 am
#155 Posted by bubba,
MQM is already marginalized as a linguistic party. PPP has no direction other then slogans and cannot deliver because they don't have a team. MMA minus Qazi Hussain is nothing and is now discredited because of Qazi's resignation and Fazlur-Rehman's twists and turns. That leaves the Sharif brothers. And they are the best option, being centrists and with a professional team which has delivered twice.
MQM is already marginalized as a linguistic party. PPP has no direction other then slogans and cannot deliver because they don't have a team. MMA minus Qazi Hussain is nothing and is now discredited because of Qazi's resignation and Fazlur-Rehman's twists and turns. That leaves the Sharif brothers. And they are the best option, being centrists and with a professional team which has delivered twice.
#156 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 8:04:27 am
#154 Posted by mohar11,
Mohar you know something? You're right.
Mohar you know something? You're right.
#155 Posted by bubba on July 29, 2007 7:53:12 am
Re: # 130 Posted by HP on July 29, 2007 12:01:49 am
For Pakistan's sake I hope my optimism turns out to be correct. Why do you think that all those leaf readers amongst the current crop of leading politicians are gravitating towards the PPP?
I still think that given enough political momentum, urbanites in Punjab may still want the mainstream political parties. As for MMA, their usefulness has just about evaporated.
My observation is from the perspective of huge investments that is just waiting for entry into Pakistan, all the way from Uncle Sam to China, and Saudi Arabia. Those industrialists cannot afford to leave all those labors that are crowding into Pakistani cities just go wasted.
For MQM, there is only one option left and that is to ask for forgiveness for the May 12 mayhem. For the past so many speeches that the tough guy was giving from his London hideout over telephone lines was to his party members only. The mafia boss will have to be completely marginalized and put back in his place. After all the bureaucratic culture of this group cannot be visionary.
This brand of Mohajirs is not acceptable or welcome by the people of Karachi. Sure, they will have to get some sort of constituency, and that is the place for PPP to work hard.
For Pakistan's sake I hope my optimism turns out to be correct. Why do you think that all those leaf readers amongst the current crop of leading politicians are gravitating towards the PPP?
I still think that given enough political momentum, urbanites in Punjab may still want the mainstream political parties. As for MMA, their usefulness has just about evaporated.
My observation is from the perspective of huge investments that is just waiting for entry into Pakistan, all the way from Uncle Sam to China, and Saudi Arabia. Those industrialists cannot afford to leave all those labors that are crowding into Pakistani cities just go wasted.
For MQM, there is only one option left and that is to ask for forgiveness for the May 12 mayhem. For the past so many speeches that the tough guy was giving from his London hideout over telephone lines was to his party members only. The mafia boss will have to be completely marginalized and put back in his place. After all the bureaucratic culture of this group cannot be visionary.
This brand of Mohajirs is not acceptable or welcome by the people of Karachi. Sure, they will have to get some sort of constituency, and that is the place for PPP to work hard.
#154 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 7:39:13 am
The bottom line is: success... people are drawn towards success... the tremendous success of america has drawn everybody towards their culture... on similar note, the ongoing success of china is now drawing americans towards the chinese... these days, american children are being advised to learn mandarin, because chinese are supposed to be the future power...
In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...
So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed...
The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes... he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...
In a much limited way - same is true for India too... people in west are already taking an inerest...
So all you culture-warriors - if you need to see american kids going all out binging on bhang on holi - then the work is cut out for you... go work hard and succeed...
The kid you are ready to slap for sending out a valentine day card already knows that... he is going to make it happen... he is going to make western people dance to bollywood tunes... he is the one who will win this culture war for you... that would be the supreme irony, ain't it?...
#153 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 7:38:09 am
#152 Posted by mohar11,
Hate to admit it, but you do have a point ...
Hate to admit it, but you do have a point ...
#152 Posted by mohar11 on July 29, 2007 7:18:33 am
zee, ajeya
The "effect" of globalization is NOT as one-sided as you think... curry is now british national food, bollywood has broken some grounds in the west... chinese cultural stuff is widely observed in US...
It's not the same level as western culture seeping into eastern shores, but neverhtless...
we are all free people - each can decide for their own... If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that? ... how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...
You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead... people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...
Just let people be... everything will be just fine...
+++
BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you?
The "effect" of globalization is NOT as one-sided as you think... curry is now british national food, bollywood has broken some grounds in the west... chinese cultural stuff is widely observed in US...
It's not the same level as western culture seeping into eastern shores, but neverhtless...
we are all free people - each can decide for their own... If indian culture survived 200 years of western colonization, it can survive the onslaught of valentine day and mother's day... how do you know the kid will abandon his parents just because he wishes his mom on Mother's day?... Is he any less attached to his parents because of that? ... how many people are abandoning their parents today across the land, none of them have been exposed the mother's day in their childhood, have they?...
You guys want to fight culture wars - go ahead... people have been doing that all the time, in all ages... it does not work... culture is always fluid, it has to be...
if you stifle it in name of purity, then it will stagnate and die out...
Just let people be... everything will be just fine...
+++
BTW Ajeya - just curious - how old are you?
#151 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 2:18:09 am
#147 Posted by arjun2,
I don't know why you're sticking to that point. It is true that the Afghan FM was fired on Pakistan objection. That was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US. If the predator came the next week, it was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US.
Arjun ... you are quite smart but your analytical base is missing.
I don't know why you're sticking to that point. It is true that the Afghan FM was fired on Pakistan objection. That was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US. If the predator came the next week, it was the proper thing to do on that PARTICULAR day by US.
Arjun ... you are quite smart but your analytical base is missing.
#150 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 2:12:43 am
#148 Posted by arjun2,
Yes. Pakistanis are more cruel than the Indians. I agree.
Yes. Pakistanis are more cruel than the Indians. I agree.
#149 Posted by zeemax on July 29, 2007 2:11:48 am
HP,
But perhaps, whilst we're having this conversation, shall I remind you that just yesterday you were saying it was all a drama. (actually tahmed32 was saying that too ... but you're in a different league)
Have you changed your opinion since then?
But perhaps, whilst we're having this conversation, shall I remind you that just yesterday you were saying it was all a drama. (actually tahmed32 was saying that too ... but you're in a different league)
Have you changed your opinion since then?