Militarily Troubled Pakistan and Terribly Administered Tribals

#148 Posted by adamkhan,

You could be right. Though I got the impression that the NAP wallas considered Kharian a bit lower down in the social order than even the Punjabiyan and Hazarawaals in NWFP.

In any event, the renaming move is a good one, though I would have preferred the name Khyber to Afghania :)

Name Change Request??

Islamists want Pakistan province called Afghania
ISLAMABAD: An Islamic alliance ruling Pakistan's North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan has proposed changing the region's name to "Afghania", a provincial minister said yesterday.

The NWFP government's request to the federal government in Islamabad is likely to rekindle an old debate over the name of the region dominated by ethnic Pashtuns, who live on both sides of the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"Constitutionally there is no bar on us to rename the province on our own but we want to resolve this issue in an amicable manner," Malik Zafar Azam, NWFP's law minister said.

He said the provincial government had conducted a survey to find an alternative name for the region, designated NWFP since the days of the British Raj in pre-partition India, and most people favoured "Afghania".

"We have firmed up our proposal and plan to put it before the federal government's inter-provincial co-ordination committee in its next meeting." Central government officials were unavailable for comment.

Pashtun nationalists have long demanded the old colonial name be changed as it only indicates a geographical location rather than the ethnicity of its inhabitants, as in the other three Pakistan provinces - Punjab for Punjabis, Sindh for Sindhis and Baluchistan for Baluchis.

The nationalists had proposed "Pakhtunkhwa" as the new name for the province after its Pashtun, or Pakhtun population, but the central government is fearful it would revive old differences with Afghanistan over the Pashtun territory, known as Pashtoonistan, straddling both sides of the border.

Afghanistan has never recognised the 2,640km frontier, known as the Durand Line after the British colonialist who drew it. Afghans say the border robbed Afghanistan of land it traditionally held and it unfairly divides Pashtuns.

The Pashtoonistan issue strained relations between the two neighbours in the 1950s and 1960s, although it faded after Islamists gained influence in the border areas in the 1970s.

Observers say the new proposal by the Islamic Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal alliance, which rose to power by exploiting anti-American sentiments in the region in 2002 after US intervention in Afghanistan, could be a move to win sympathies of Pashtun tribes ahead of elections due later this year or in early 2008.

l US Democratic presidential candidate Senator Barack Obama said yesterday the US must be willing to strike Al Qaeda targets in Pakistan with or without the approval of the Pakistani government.

He warned President Pervez Musharraf that he must do more to shut down terrorist operations in his country and evict foreign fighters under his presidency, or Pakistan will risk a US troop invasion and losing hundreds of millions of dollars in US military aid.

#150 Posted by GT

“I am saying, of-course influenced by the writings of echo, that the concerns of the common Pakistani (with substantial religious ideals) are not being heeded by the ruling class.�

That is where the error in assessment is. Echo does not know squat about Pakistani situation. There are small pockets of Islamist support in a few Punjabi cities otherwise most of their support is in the tribal areas and parts of NWFP and that is not the Majority of Pakistani having Islamist ideals, that is pure garbage. Majority of Pakistani would vote Benazir, Sharif and other groups of Muslim leagues and none of them is Islamist.

Putting together small numbers of suicide bombers, does not in any way mean that the bombers represent the Islamist/religious ideals. You need to distinguish between the criminals (the suicide bombers in Pakistan) and peaceful vote wielding people.

“The inability to participate in the political process is frustrating.�

Yeah it is frustrating for all but the Islamists are not looking to participate in the political process. They are trying to end the political process. Suicide Bombings and Lal Maseet don’t promote political process.

GDP in ppp.

HP:

Yes, delegating the right to make decisions, to a small section of the people reduces transaction costs. In such a sense 'elites' rule. If people delegate to the same elite over the long run, then there is no problem as such but it does raise suspicion. However, when the same 'elite' remains in business with or without being delegated power by the people then that is troublesome. Especially when this ruling section is totally removed from the needs and aspirations of the common man. In this sense Pakistan is much different from say today's Spain but has a strong resemblance to Franco's rule.

I am not saying that the mullahs are not a part of the ruling class in Pakistan. I do not remember Urstruly, echo or zeemax making that claim. I am saying, of-course influenced by the writings of echo, that the concerns of the common Pakistani (with substantial religious ideals) are not being heeded by the ruling class. The inability to participate in the political process is frustrating. And the frustration is being kept alive by the fundamentalists. They seem to be saying: "Look these English speaking rulers care more about Americans than you ... see how they kill, destroy mosques and violate the Islamic constitution". I bet you that most Pakistanis will nod their head even if not in full agreement. On the other hand the LIBERAL seems to be saying: "Hey look, there is no problem in Pakistan. We are just like all the other countries. Even our GDP in ppp is higher than China and India". I bet you that most Pakistanis will give the stare ... "yeah, right".

#142 Posted by dawa-i-dil

[hindu is makkar..in simplest words....]

That's not what the world thinks. The Christiams don't like Muslims, Buddhists (Thailand) don't like Muslims, Hindus don't like Muslims, Jews don't like Muslims, Secular people (China/Russia) don't like Muslims.

Why do you like to follow a pedophile, mass murderer, looter and serial rapist?

And by the way - there are no jinns, no houris, no ghilmans - nothing. They were stories for controlling idiot bedouins. Sorry.

Have a nice day.

zeemax

it depends on your company, nothing derogatory about being a kharay. see this as banter, in the same light as the Shehri and Paindu distinction very common in other parts of pakistan.

Dawa,

(Ram Ram Ram.......)

Bhoot ke mooh mein Raam naam.???

Regards

I see your point... it may be Kharay...

Adam...

Khaar or Khar are from the same root. City dwellers are considered stupid in folk lore ... Secondly ... you then haven't considered my response to Jayp in toto...

The pre-cursor to the taliban were people fakir of Ipi and Maulana Mufti Mahmood. Ghaffar Khan was allied with them.

I know.. that makes him the pre-cursor to the Pakistan Army.

#141 Posted by MantoLives,

The actual word is 'Kharay' for singular and 'Khariyan' for plural. But you're absolutely right that both are used in a derogatory manner.

Mantolives


In post #11 you said Tribal Areas were riled up and politicised in the name of Islam by none other than Frontier Gandhi…. and you ended the post by … how about blaming the right people for the right mess for once in you life?

So your post #141 where you state I am not trying to establish Ghaffar Khan as the pre-cursor to anything…. comes as a big improvement.

As I mentioned earlier political islam does not need preachers of non-violence to bring out these fanatics. It has done so on its own many times in the past, all over the world.

Now for the terms “Khaar� now listen meray bhai, Khaar in Peshawari dialect of Pushto means city, while in the Waziristani dialect it means Gadha, or donkey. (in the Waziristani dialect khaar (city) would be pronounced shaar)

So if we take the Peshawari dialect, you are calling the Hindko speaking people “cities� instead of “city dwellers�. Its like some gora calling the people of inner city Lahore “Shehers� instead of �Shehris�.

hindu is makkar..in simplest words....

baghal mai churri..moo mai Ram Ram....

makkari aur ayyari ..tau hainduo par khatam hai....
uus ko dang maerati hain jo in ko doodh pilata hai...


plz..dont mnd ubove words..this is reality..based of 1000 years of our experience living with you....

the Mota harami ....playboy...Hari Singh..wanted to be neutral..but when majority of muslims said that we want Pakistan ...he decided status quo with jinnah..then ..decieving him..invited wet dhoti wali sarkar..Nehru..who imediatelt send its trrops in air force at sri nagar air force....

arai maharaj...tum logo nai tau apnai Bapu ...Mahatama Gandhi ko Maran Bharat rakhanai par nahee chora...or Patel (first interior minister) who is main figure of all bloodshed of 1947.....nai ussai marwa diya....you people think..we dont know your posisonous mentality....

Ram Ram Ram.......

Re: # 140

Dear AdamKhan,

What you don't realise is that HP has seconded all of my submissions...:

1. Ghaffar Khan's movement was Pushtun Nationalist bordering on pushtun racial superiority.

2. Ghaffar Khan's movement was allied with the Deobandi Islamists- the pre-cursors of the Taliban movement.

3. Muslim League's support in main came from city dwellers, i.e. the Khaars (I am going to stick to this word because this is a general Pustho word that describes city-dwellers- the "s" is English plrual).

4. Majority of the Non-Pushtuns- especially Hindko and Hazaras- voted for the Muslim League.

5. KK included feudal elements and sardars and the landed gentry voted for KK in the elections.


I am not trying to establish Ghaffar Khan as the pre-cursor to anything. I am merely mentioning the fact that Ghaffar Khan's latter sommersaults had a lot to do with de-stabilising NWFP... and his appeal to Pushtuns to rise up against Pakistan because it was not shariat based is roughly the same argument used by Waziristan's "mujahids" today... much like GK's ally Fakir of Ipi back in the day.

HP

Thanks for sharing the quote, but your evidence about the political standing of hindko speakers is anecdotal. As your visits were in the late 80s a time when there was no medium of judging the overall political sentiment of hindko speakers. My proofs in this regard are the elections of the nineties when people like the Bilour brothers, Haji Adeel and other hindko speaking ANP leaders won seats in the city. Infact, if I remember correctly, Ghulam Bilour defeated Benazir Bhutto for NA 1 during the 90s.

What the excited manto fails to realize is that you are not trying to establish the KKs as the precursors for the Taliban movement.

Mantolives

You never learn do you? I told you the word is not “khaars� but “Khaariyan�, stop making an ass out of yourself.

You didn’t just declare the KK as a Pukhtun Nationalist Movement, your claim in your words was and Muslim League only won support amongst the "Khaaars" or the city dwellers... the lowly non-Pushtuns ... meanwhile it was the Pushtun of the pure blood in main who supported Ghaffar Khan. Now there is a difference between Pukhtun Nationalism and downright racism, your emphasis on the “lowly� non – pushtoons paints a completely different picture of the Khudai Khidmatgars and of Ghaffar Khan. They were not racists, make a note of that.

The beauty of Ghaffar Khan’s message was the introduction of non-violent resistance to the very violent Pukhtoons. One has to know the attitudes of Pathans in general to realize how big of an accomplishment that was, and how desperately a similar effort is needed right now.

Dawa,

Pakistan would have got J&K if only ur leaders had been consistent and honest. Had they accepted the principle that the princely states go to successor states based on majority principle JK wud have been urs. The GoI which was in 1947 more concerned about Hyderabad wud have readily traded off JK for Hyd. But ur leaders including MAJ (pbuh) wanted not only JK on religion basis but also Hyderabad, Bhopal, Junagadh and incidentally the Rajputana states (thanks to a conspiracy hatched by Zubeida Queen of Jodhpur a fact which pseudo-secularist Shyam Benegal has glossed over in his movie) on the prince decides principle.

The result was that the Indians retaliated with similar double standards and since the Indians wielded the bigger danda at that time, India kept not only the Hindu majority states but also most of Muslim majority J&K.

Regards

#136 Posted by dawa-i-dil

his Dhoti became wet when he made a proise in UNO for refrendum in Kashmir...OK

But what happened to your Dhoti? If it wasn't wet, why didn't you take over Kashmir when India refused to hold a referendum?