Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

#511 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 7, 2007 9:44:55 pm

I see..so if you kids are playing around a snake, you'll think happy happy thoughts and the snake will morph into a harmless lovable fuzzball bunny?

good idea..let them do that..

darwin will do his thing and make sure the gene pool of humanity has fewer idiots propagating themselves..

Modi is not on the terrorist list...prophet tahmed is pulling stuff out of hiss paki rear..and all just to cover for the fact that he condones terrorism but can't come out and say it...

there's two kinds of pakis..the kind that openly says they support terrorism and the other kind: liars..

#517 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 4:40:53 am


Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11


Nice try, but no cookie...

Why are the LeT etc on the terrorist list?

And about the way the US sees things, ever heard of the virginia jihad network? yes...that's virginia, next door to gaithesburg...Planning to feign ignorance? no problem...I'll help you out..

google earch for virginia jihad network kashmir

So what has Mr. Modi done that Mr. Jinnah has not done?
Why is Modi on the terrorist list now and Jinnah was not
on the terrorist list then?

yar borivli, didnt you read the noose or you got stuck on platform 2 at kandivli...sanjay dutt was convicted. he is at least half-hindu, after all his name is that of a famous mahabharat charoteer and reciter.

cliftonbi, its the bunnies that make rattlesnake hunting impossible..muddy up the waters, provide deniability for the states jihadi actions. tahmed is a great example. hopefefully borivli local will remove the cobwebs from tahmeds toungue ;-)

here is one link I found on guj riot conviction:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060224/139/62ogz.html

harish_hyd #519 No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda? Of course not. You imply the same ansswer when you note that "it (US) takes a serious view, going to the extent of banning these groups because some day the same groups can go after them too. " Thus, for policy makers in the US (as in any other country) the prime concern is domestic security.

Since Arjun is determined to ignore what I the ground realities I presented in #456 (and thus doomed to spend his time shadow boxing his hallucinations), perhaps you would care to look at what I am trying to get across to you. They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end. While I dont know if the Indian government realizes the chance it is missing in building goodwill among Pakistanis by suppoorting the democracy movement, but as ordinary Indian citizens you can certainly do better than trying to do exactly what Musharraf would love the world to do - paint Pakistanis as terrorists, with Musharraf being the Horatio at the bridge holding them back.

borivili dude

Look - you muslims are killing and brutalizing each other like never before... iraq, iran, afganistan, pakiland... you don't treat each other with respect... arabs treat pakis like sh!t... pakis treat each other the same way - shias are killed regularly, ahmedis are brutalized... mohajirs are killed in thousands - they in turn have killed others in kind...

You got to first treat each other nicely and also treat your minorities better... then come crying to us and we will see what we can do...

brivili

Dude - hinuds killed about 4000 muslims in the riots... now, pakis killed a million muslims in bdesh, a few thousand in baloch, they keep killing even today... thousand of muslims were killed in afganistan by muslims themselves, saddam killed thousands of muslims in iraq...

I don't hear "fight till the judgement day" for any of these killings... but hinuds killed a few hundred and you are all fire and brimstone - ready to fight "till the last muslim child"... :)

+++

I thought they convicted a few guj rioter last year... didn't they?

#517 by tahmed32

Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11.

Really? I thought the US proscribed the LeT, JeM, and the HuM, terrorist groups that are currently fighting Indian security forces in Kashmir. Wonder why it would do so if it viewed the fighting there as different from 9/11.

In fact, over the years, the US has come around to the long-held Indian view that you cannot treat terrorism in isolation. So if earlier the US ignored Pak-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir on the grounds that it didn't harm them, today it takes a serious view, going to the extent of banning these groups because some day the same groups can go after them too. Nowhere is this example more clear than in Pakistan itself. The Mujahideen fighting Afghan rule today are fighting the Pak armed forces, the very army that midwifed them. The LeT and JeM, also the ISI's brainchild today launch suicide attacks on the President and PM. Who would have thought?

test

arjun: So, you ignore the rest of my post, take a phrase out of context to make it appear that I am "dancing" around Musharraf's role when in fact anyone who is not a complete dud can see I am being perfectly factual in what I say.

You also ignore my earlier post #456 that I challenged you to read and then tell me how your "questions" have any relevance to the fundamental ground realities concerning India-Pakistan relations I provide there. That is, even if ISI kept me informed of its activities (as per your hallucinations that you wish to share with "kuldip nayyar clones"), and even if the answer to your question was a simple "yes" - so what the bloody hell could you do about it, you idiot? One of the ground realities I told you about was that India can no longer dare to attack Pakistan. Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11. Two decades of Indian government attempts to paint the two as the same have failed. And if the Pakistan public is up in arms against Musharraf, it is not out of fear of India or the US - it is in the context of internal politics.

These are facts on the ground that policy makers work with. These are facts that are spiteful, stupid Indians like you on chowk look away from even when they are presented to you. And that is why individuals like you are the worst enemies of the group you claim to represent - Indians.

Ranjit what you are saying is that given the circumstances and the dynamics what haapened in kashmir/gujrat/Bombay/Ayodhia is normal. But how come Indians dont accept the same arguments for muslim countries? that is given their circumstances and dynamics what is happening is understandable?

Re:borivili_express

Dude, please have a sense of perspective. India has 150 million muslims living there. 150 million!! That is the same as the entire population of Pakistan, give or take a few. No other country can even imagine having such a large muslim minority, let alone keep it happy. Countries like UK and France cannot even manage the handful of muslims living there, with riots, jihadi attacks etc happening with alarming frequency.

As compared to that, just look at how things are in India. Yes there are riots once in a while which no one is proud of. Typically they are politically motivated and it takes a really long time to convict the perpetrators - we just convicted the 1984 anti-sikh rioters. Yet the fact is that 150 million muslims are living a fairly content and satisfied lives, while being fully integrated in Indian society. We do not see a single case of any muslim exodus to a neighboring country. We see Bangladeshis sneaking into India all the time to escape poverty. We have never seen any Indian muslim sneaking into Pakistan (except Dawood Ibrahim :-)) via any route. They could go to Kashmir LOC or any other border or go via Dubai or overstay visas. However, it just does not happen except for stray cases. People vote with their feet and the fact that indian muslims have no interest in Pakistan is a very telling sign.

Secondly indian muslim involvement in jihadi activities is negligible. Except for the SIMI and some stray incidents, in general indian muslims seem to have zero interest in such activities, to the eternal frustration of right wing pakistanis like zeemax or urstruly. Compare that to UK or France where the miniscule muslim population is hell bent on violence. That means that social, cultural and economic conditions in India DO NOT alienate muslims in large numbers. They do not feel like outsiders, plain and simple. They are at home!! They feel wanted, are accepted by society and do not feel alien. They have a strong political voice and they have democratic means to redress their grievances. They may be economically backward but to its credit the Indian muslim community is very highly focused on education these days and the income disparity with non-muslims is shrinking.

Basically it is easy to point out problems in India but sometimes we ought to step back and look at the big picture. I challenge you to show me any country in the world where a religious minority of such a size is living peacefully. Pakistan has a hard time keeping things under control in spite of being 97% muslim. People in Pakistan are creating minorities from thin air by designating one group of muslims as non-muslims!! More mosques and imambaraghs are bombed and attacked in Pakistan than in India. In India, there was only one Babri Masjid and that was a freak incident. The BJP paid a heavy price for Gujarat to the point that it is now permanently in the political wilderness at the center.

Re:cliftonbridge

I think it is certainly positive to see that Pakistani society is changing its attitude towards hindus. The recent opening of Katas Raj temple and the one in the Lahore fort, the overall behavior with visiting Indians are a sign that Pakistanis no longer have a knee jerk reaction about anything related to hinduism. They had already reversed their attitudes towards sikhism a while back and now seem to be extending that same reversal to hinduism as well. Although more can be done, it is nevertheless a welcome first step.

It would be interesting to analyze why this change is happening. My theory is that Pakistani society is increasingly fearful of runaway extremism. What started out as a seemingly natural generic hatred of hindus/sikhs in the post-partition times, degenerated into hatred of qadianis, shias and ultimately anyone not on board with jihad and taliban style islam. Basically Pakistanis have stared into the abyss, especially in light of how afghanistan has been literally destroyed by similar forces, and are realizing that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction. It is good to see at least some efforts to push back the pendulum in the other direction of tolerance.

Jang are you denying that there has not been a single conviction in the Gujarat and Bombay riots with ovr 4000 muslims butchered in broad daylight with even a report, i think callled the Srikrishna report ? and mind you it has been 15 years since the bombay riots and 5 years since gujrat.

are you also one of the nazi holocaust deniers?