A Pakistani-American in India
Ras Siddiqui August 6, 2007
#696 Posted by Pulchritude on August 21, 2007 1:07:10 pm
Re: # 213i totally agree wid u these abnormal indians r gone mad i think specially this joshi.....nyways ur answers r gud
keep it up!!
keep it up!!
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#695 Posted by Pulchritude on August 21, 2007 1:00:14 pm
Re: # 323Well i think mr joshi ur a typical case of psycatrist...huh ur acting like frustrated man who does'nt know the reality but keep on exagerating the false things...
its better 4 u to study first & then give ur idiotic comments on any thing....u duuno any thing true abt ur own country so how can u bullshit abt others so just behave like a decent indian dont show ur reall face.
thanks
its better 4 u to study first & then give ur idiotic comments on any thing....u duuno any thing true abt ur own country so how can u bullshit abt others so just behave like a decent indian dont show ur reall face.
thanks
#693 Posted by laddu on August 16, 2007 8:09:48 am
Re: # 692
It is not a common Hindu view because the mullahs still clamour to represent the muslims and hence present the worst face of muslims before the hindu idolators.
However, those hindu who intereact with modern educated indian muslims on a dialy basis understand that the problem in Islam is the presence of un challenged hate verses.
Modern tafsirs would in variably arise because modern muslims are finding it increasingly difficult to leave the interpretation of Islam in the hands of traditional mullahs and Islamic scholars.
From what I have gathered, hindus are not revolted by reading Quran per se, with the hate verses contextualized with respect to Mohammad's times and readily agree to muslims who only accept non-belligerent form of Quran
In my view the Quranists are indeed the best muslims.
I think the prime example being tahmed on chowk.
I think Masadi would also be joining the ranks if he gets out of hate mode and adapts a mystical sufi interpretation of Quran.
It is not a common Hindu view because the mullahs still clamour to represent the muslims and hence present the worst face of muslims before the hindu idolators.
However, those hindu who intereact with modern educated indian muslims on a dialy basis understand that the problem in Islam is the presence of un challenged hate verses.
Modern tafsirs would in variably arise because modern muslims are finding it increasingly difficult to leave the interpretation of Islam in the hands of traditional mullahs and Islamic scholars.
From what I have gathered, hindus are not revolted by reading Quran per se, with the hate verses contextualized with respect to Mohammad's times and readily agree to muslims who only accept non-belligerent form of Quran
In my view the Quranists are indeed the best muslims.
I think the prime example being tahmed on chowk.
I think Masadi would also be joining the ranks if he gets out of hate mode and adapts a mystical sufi interpretation of Quran.
#692 Posted by KaalChakra on August 16, 2007 7:35:00 am
laddu bhai, I do have a question, if you don't mind.
Is this the common Hindu view that (1) new kind of 'modern' tafsirs (that presumably did not exist before) would arise, that (2) Muslims will (sooner or later)reject verses from Quran, that (3) Quranists form the 'light' of Islamic scholarship, and that (4) Quranists are fundamentally different from traditional scholars (more peaceful, from your point of view)?
Would greatly appreciate if you would share your view. Thanks.
Is this the common Hindu view that (1) new kind of 'modern' tafsirs (that presumably did not exist before) would arise, that (2) Muslims will (sooner or later)reject verses from Quran, that (3) Quranists form the 'light' of Islamic scholarship, and that (4) Quranists are fundamentally different from traditional scholars (more peaceful, from your point of view)?
Would greatly appreciate if you would share your view. Thanks.
#691 Posted by KaalChakra on August 16, 2007 7:17:53 am
Great, then, laddu. Hopefully, in a few generations Islam will have "modern" tafsirs, 'hateful verses" from Quran will be rejected by Muslims, and there shall be peace :)
#690 Posted by laddu on August 16, 2007 7:06:22 am
Re: # 689
They would change only if new modern tafsirs come up that reject the hate verses form Quran and Hadiths.
The trend has already started and we find more muslims willing to reject Hadiths as haresays and try to contextualize the hate verses of Quran.
The Quranists are the only light of Islamic scholarship. Traditional mullahism , literalists and wahabbists are going to die out.
The future of Islam is in those who reject Hadiths and come up with novel allegoric interpretations of Quran.
That would SAVE Islam.
Other wise, the traditional Dawah factory is going to keep on suporting and justifying modern day Islamic terrorist culture in muslim societies.
They would change only if new modern tafsirs come up that reject the hate verses form Quran and Hadiths.
The trend has already started and we find more muslims willing to reject Hadiths as haresays and try to contextualize the hate verses of Quran.
The Quranists are the only light of Islamic scholarship. Traditional mullahism , literalists and wahabbists are going to die out.
The future of Islam is in those who reject Hadiths and come up with novel allegoric interpretations of Quran.
That would SAVE Islam.
Other wise, the traditional Dawah factory is going to keep on suporting and justifying modern day Islamic terrorist culture in muslim societies.
#689 Posted by KaalChakra on August 16, 2007 6:17:07 am
dawa, how often do you need to be reminded? I am a very bad person. I won't give Muslims what they deserve.
laddu, are we waiting for Muslims to change?
laddu, are we waiting for Muslims to change?
#688 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 11:29:37 pm
http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/246411
Not the best thing to share on Independent day of neighbouring country, but couldn't resist. It might be just staring this way that people are hiding their ID as some poor desis do in west. But by looking at the dire situation of Muslims in general in India, this doesn't come as a shocker. Muslims are equally responsible for their current state. They didn't do enough to vamp up their youths in education, after 5 generations, they are still paying for it.
Fearful Muslims adopt Hindu IDs
In India, many members of religious minority hide the signs of their faith to escape discrimination
August 15, 2007
Shaikh Azizur Rahman
SPECIAL TO THE STAR
CALCUTTA–On a busy street in Calcutta's business district, he runs a food stall called "Rajib's Paratha" and is known as Rajib Mallick.
Using the popular Hindu name, no one suspects he is Rajab Ali Mollah, a Muslim who has adopted a fictitious identity to blend in with the neighbourhood's mostly Hindu office workers.
Sohrab Hossain, a Muslim student who came to the city to complete his Masters degree in English and lives in a Hindu-dominated housing complex, is known as Sourav Das among the students he tutors. To keep up his Hindu appearance he has a small idol of Saraswati, the Hindu goddess of learning, on his desk.
Every morning as she prepares to go to work as a fishmonger, Hasina Khatoon takes off her silver armband embossed with "Allah" in Arabic, puts vermillion powder on her forehead and red-white conch bangles on her wrist – symbols of a married Hindu woman – to maintain a Hindu appearance in a fish market where almost all of her customers are Hindus.
Rajab Mollah, Sohrab Hossain and Hasina Khatoon say they have adopted new identities in a Hindu-majority society where as Muslims they would face discrimination.
Analysts say many Muslims from all socio-economic backgrounds are quietly hiding their religious affiliation.
"Muslims in almost all spheres of life face a communal discrimination by powerful Hindus and they are denied many of their basic rights and freedom in an unjustified way," said Anjan Basu, a social analyst and executive editor of Pratidin, a Bengali daily in Calcutta.
Six decades after Partition, "many (Hindus) believe that Pakistan was created for Muslims and now they do not have right to live in India, which is meant for Hindus."
The Partition of India 60 years ago was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent today.
Basu, who is a Hindu, also said discrimination has been "institutionalized," with many Muslims being denied employment in government and private-sector offices where 90 to 95 per cent jobs are held by Hindus.
Gautam Ray, a senior journalist with Calcutta's largest Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika, said that since the bulk of the dalits (low-caste Hindus or so-called Untouchables) converted to Islam when the religion spread in India, many upper-caste Hindus look down on Muslims as they had for generations looked down on dalits.
"The root of this communal discrimination is deeply entrenched in the society and most of these communal Hindus are not expected to change their feeling for Muslims any time soon," said Ray, who is also an upper-caste Hindu. "Muslims are often denied housing in Hindu-dominated modern residential complexes," he added.
"This communal discrimination against Muslims will not end unless Hindus themselves change their attitude. But we do not see hope of any such positive social change anytime soon."
Muslims who adopted fake Hindu identities believe they did nothing wrong by hiding their original identities.
"Ten years ago, when my house and land in the village was eaten up by a river and I came to Calcutta in search of a job, almost all street shops and restaurants in the city refused to employ me because I was a Muslim," Mollah said.
"Some said their Hindu customers could refuse to eat at their restaurants if a Muslim worked there," he said.
"But I met a Muslim man who worked under a Hindu identity to supply water to restaurants. I followed his advice, picked up a Hindu identity and soon an upper-class Hindu employed me to run a food stall."
Nearly all of Mollah's customers are Hindus and he fears his business would suffer disastrously if his customers found out he is a Muslim.
"I don't think I have done anything wrong because I know how they hate Muslims simply because of their religion," he added.
A federal commission recently found that Muslims "live in socio-economic conditions worse than many so-called backward tribal people," according to commission chief Rajendra Sachar, a former judge.
In the state of West Bengal, where the Muslim community makes up 27 per cent of the population, employment of Muslims in the government sector was below 3 per cent, the Sachar Commission reported.
Some Muslim leaders see education as the key to a better future.
"If the younger generation can educate themselves, it will be difficult for even the most communal Hindus to discriminate against a new Muslim force," said Nazrul Islam, a senior public servant and noted Calcutta writer.
"Maybe discrimination will not be wiped out completely, but an educated and powerful community of Muslims will be able to fight off the injustice, at least to a good extent."
this Article is taken from pakistan greatest forum ...
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=261635
Not the best thing to share on Independent day of neighbouring country, but couldn't resist. It might be just staring this way that people are hiding their ID as some poor desis do in west. But by looking at the dire situation of Muslims in general in India, this doesn't come as a shocker. Muslims are equally responsible for their current state. They didn't do enough to vamp up their youths in education, after 5 generations, they are still paying for it.
Fearful Muslims adopt Hindu IDs
In India, many members of religious minority hide the signs of their faith to escape discrimination
August 15, 2007
Shaikh Azizur Rahman
SPECIAL TO THE STAR
CALCUTTA–On a busy street in Calcutta's business district, he runs a food stall called "Rajib's Paratha" and is known as Rajib Mallick.
Using the popular Hindu name, no one suspects he is Rajab Ali Mollah, a Muslim who has adopted a fictitious identity to blend in with the neighbourhood's mostly Hindu office workers.
Sohrab Hossain, a Muslim student who came to the city to complete his Masters degree in English and lives in a Hindu-dominated housing complex, is known as Sourav Das among the students he tutors. To keep up his Hindu appearance he has a small idol of Saraswati, the Hindu goddess of learning, on his desk.
Every morning as she prepares to go to work as a fishmonger, Hasina Khatoon takes off her silver armband embossed with "Allah" in Arabic, puts vermillion powder on her forehead and red-white conch bangles on her wrist – symbols of a married Hindu woman – to maintain a Hindu appearance in a fish market where almost all of her customers are Hindus.
Rajab Mollah, Sohrab Hossain and Hasina Khatoon say they have adopted new identities in a Hindu-majority society where as Muslims they would face discrimination.
Analysts say many Muslims from all socio-economic backgrounds are quietly hiding their religious affiliation.
"Muslims in almost all spheres of life face a communal discrimination by powerful Hindus and they are denied many of their basic rights and freedom in an unjustified way," said Anjan Basu, a social analyst and executive editor of Pratidin, a Bengali daily in Calcutta.
Six decades after Partition, "many (Hindus) believe that Pakistan was created for Muslims and now they do not have right to live in India, which is meant for Hindus."
The Partition of India 60 years ago was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent today.
Basu, who is a Hindu, also said discrimination has been "institutionalized," with many Muslims being denied employment in government and private-sector offices where 90 to 95 per cent jobs are held by Hindus.
Gautam Ray, a senior journalist with Calcutta's largest Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika, said that since the bulk of the dalits (low-caste Hindus or so-called Untouchables) converted to Islam when the religion spread in India, many upper-caste Hindus look down on Muslims as they had for generations looked down on dalits.
"The root of this communal discrimination is deeply entrenched in the society and most of these communal Hindus are not expected to change their feeling for Muslims any time soon," said Ray, who is also an upper-caste Hindu. "Muslims are often denied housing in Hindu-dominated modern residential complexes," he added.
"This communal discrimination against Muslims will not end unless Hindus themselves change their attitude. But we do not see hope of any such positive social change anytime soon."
Muslims who adopted fake Hindu identities believe they did nothing wrong by hiding their original identities.
"Ten years ago, when my house and land in the village was eaten up by a river and I came to Calcutta in search of a job, almost all street shops and restaurants in the city refused to employ me because I was a Muslim," Mollah said.
"Some said their Hindu customers could refuse to eat at their restaurants if a Muslim worked there," he said.
"But I met a Muslim man who worked under a Hindu identity to supply water to restaurants. I followed his advice, picked up a Hindu identity and soon an upper-class Hindu employed me to run a food stall."
Nearly all of Mollah's customers are Hindus and he fears his business would suffer disastrously if his customers found out he is a Muslim.
"I don't think I have done anything wrong because I know how they hate Muslims simply because of their religion," he added.
A federal commission recently found that Muslims "live in socio-economic conditions worse than many so-called backward tribal people," according to commission chief Rajendra Sachar, a former judge.
In the state of West Bengal, where the Muslim community makes up 27 per cent of the population, employment of Muslims in the government sector was below 3 per cent, the Sachar Commission reported.
Some Muslim leaders see education as the key to a better future.
"If the younger generation can educate themselves, it will be difficult for even the most communal Hindus to discriminate against a new Muslim force," said Nazrul Islam, a senior public servant and noted Calcutta writer.
"Maybe discrimination will not be wiped out completely, but an educated and powerful community of Muslims will be able to fight off the injustice, at least to a good extent."
this Article is taken from pakistan greatest forum ...
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=261635
#687 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 11:26:21 pm
Re: # 684 no..smell the coffee..today ground realities say..200 millions muslims live miserably in india..so its thier basic right to have a a seperate muslim land inside india...why you not give them thier basic right ..why ???
#686 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 11:24:51 pm
Re: # 681 My sympathies with you...as usually defeated people have such attitudes....pooh
#685 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 7:41:11 pm
Re: # 683
This will go on AS LONG AS 'educated' muslims keep on flocking to his 'lectures' and wowing at his 'performance' and calling it a 'proof' of 'superiority' of the Quranic 'truths'.
Unless and until the roots of scepticism get entrenched within the realm of Islamic thinking, I cannot see any retreat from this trend of ISlamists trying to conjure up a 'grand narrative' that supercedes or even pre-empts ALL human thinking.
Zakir has mande his millions through IRF and commands a sizable chunk of 'educated' muslims. I believe even Kafeel brothers were influenced by his sermons.
This will go on AS LONG AS 'educated' muslims keep on flocking to his 'lectures' and wowing at his 'performance' and calling it a 'proof' of 'superiority' of the Quranic 'truths'.
Unless and until the roots of scepticism get entrenched within the realm of Islamic thinking, I cannot see any retreat from this trend of ISlamists trying to conjure up a 'grand narrative' that supercedes or even pre-empts ALL human thinking.
Zakir has mande his millions through IRF and commands a sizable chunk of 'educated' muslims. I believe even Kafeel brothers were influenced by his sermons.
#684 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 11:21:38 am
shah, agreed. Turtles are the rightful owners of the land. We can live under the oceans. Dawa bhai can have his boats ready. You and I will jump in when he is not looking.
:)
:)
#683 Posted by Shah2 on August 15, 2007 11:18:53 am
"to vacate all land that belonged to our forefathers"
in gesdture of light heartedness if you go back further ...indian subcontinent was detached pat of AFRICA which floated off Indian ocean to join Asian continent ...The evidence of it being 'emerged from submerged staus' is to be ound in the Himalayas in the form buried remains of Marine ..how else would they have gone 1760 ft above sea level..lol
in gesdture of light heartedness if you go back further ...indian subcontinent was detached pat of AFRICA which floated off Indian ocean to join Asian continent ...The evidence of it being 'emerged from submerged staus' is to be ound in the Himalayas in the form buried remains of Marine ..how else would they have gone 1760 ft above sea level..lol
#682 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 10:59:07 am
laddu, well, then he is merely carrying on a very long tradition. The question is will this continue? Or will there be a response?
#681 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 10:39:56 am
kaal,
Actually this guy Zakir Naik has never got into a straight debate with any hindu scholar in India. He just shows off before the illiterate muslims who flock him to see just like muslims flock to see quranic ayaats 'written' on natural patterns on trees or stones.
He undertakes the so called 'debate' in a completely controlled enviroment , in a room full of testrone high faithfuls who immediately pull out the mike from some one who asks 'disturbing' questions.
He gives such stupid answers to very basic questions about say - the Teleological proof of God's existence - and makes such stupid gestures of self assurance that only fiathfuls can get fooled by his 'logic'.
In my opinion he is a part of growing Islamist movement that would culminate in preparing huge propaganda for the subsequent genocide of the idolators and kafirs.
Zakir Naik has gone on record saying that "all muslims should be terrorists" and that in an Islamic state hindus and idolators cannot be allowed to propagate their religion . In my opinion his thinking is similar to moududi regarding the status of 'dhimmis' as second class citizens.
Actually this guy Zakir Naik has never got into a straight debate with any hindu scholar in India. He just shows off before the illiterate muslims who flock him to see just like muslims flock to see quranic ayaats 'written' on natural patterns on trees or stones.
He undertakes the so called 'debate' in a completely controlled enviroment , in a room full of testrone high faithfuls who immediately pull out the mike from some one who asks 'disturbing' questions.
He gives such stupid answers to very basic questions about say - the Teleological proof of God's existence - and makes such stupid gestures of self assurance that only fiathfuls can get fooled by his 'logic'.
In my opinion he is a part of growing Islamist movement that would culminate in preparing huge propaganda for the subsequent genocide of the idolators and kafirs.
Zakir Naik has gone on record saying that "all muslims should be terrorists" and that in an Islamic state hindus and idolators cannot be allowed to propagate their religion . In my opinion his thinking is similar to moududi regarding the status of 'dhimmis' as second class citizens.
#680 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 10:05:10 am
laddu, what amazes me is that if we had such a Hindu charltan in Pakistan, will he survive a day?
If not, why and how does he survive in India?
--------------
dawa bhai, what is the advantage of live war over cyber war?
---------
About rights, see, we Hindus don't know what rights are. Some of us are even thinking we should respectfully ask Pakistanis to vacate all land that belonged to our forefathers, and all Muslims (currently occupying our lands in India and Pakistan) to move to Makka Medina (wait, did that belong to the Muslims?). We shouldn't be taking over different people's land. That's what we think justice is.
Agreed, that is not how you think...
If not, why and how does he survive in India?
--------------
dawa bhai, what is the advantage of live war over cyber war?
---------
About rights, see, we Hindus don't know what rights are. Some of us are even thinking we should respectfully ask Pakistanis to vacate all land that belonged to our forefathers, and all Muslims (currently occupying our lands in India and Pakistan) to move to Makka Medina (wait, did that belong to the Muslims?). We shouldn't be taking over different people's land. That's what we think justice is.
Agreed, that is not how you think...
#679 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 9:47:47 am
Re: # 672 no explanation..just give 200 millions muslims thier basic right...
#678 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 9:47:42 am
Re: # 672 no explanation..just give 200 millions muslims thier basic right...
#677 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 9:45:57 am
Re: # 676
ali sina want cyber war..not on live ..OK
ali sina want cyber war..not on live ..OK
#676 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 9:39:07 am
If Zakir Naik has any shame, he should immediately accept the challenge thrown by Ali Sina in a debate on Islam.
#675 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 9:29:16 am
Re: # 664
Zakir Naik is a charlatan. A big mouth. He collects all the stupid faithfuls and then quotes some verse from Veda or Gita claiming that this is proof of Quranic message's 'truth'.
All o them go ga ga because they want to believe him.
Zakir Naik is NO match in a proper shastra artha. He is only a show man who can memorize text and verses and then make false claims.
Tell him to come and undertake a shastrartha with any vedic pundit in the presence of other vedic pundits.
This is a challenge!!!
Also, Zakir Naik can undertake any debate with other Pundits over the emails any time.
He has even chickened out of the Dawah Chalenge thrown by Ali Sina at him.
One can only laugh at his claims and he only has support from mullahs like you.
Zakir Naik is a charlatan. A big mouth. He collects all the stupid faithfuls and then quotes some verse from Veda or Gita claiming that this is proof of Quranic message's 'truth'.
All o them go ga ga because they want to believe him.
Zakir Naik is NO match in a proper shastra artha. He is only a show man who can memorize text and verses and then make false claims.
Tell him to come and undertake a shastrartha with any vedic pundit in the presence of other vedic pundits.
This is a challenge!!!
Also, Zakir Naik can undertake any debate with other Pundits over the emails any time.
He has even chickened out of the Dawah Chalenge thrown by Ali Sina at him.
One can only laugh at his claims and he only has support from mullahs like you.
#674 Posted by Ras on August 15, 2007 8:10:56 am
Re: 658 AlephNull
I am not sure what the solution for Kashmir will be but
let us not keep saying "on Pakistan's terms" because that
went out the window long ago with arjun's "platter".
My reason for mentioning India's energy sources was
not because it would ensure blackmail. Pakistan's water
comes from Kashmir, so it could be in blackmail bind too.
In my article, I was looking at future possibilities of
peace and friendship between India-Pakistan-Bangladesh
because I have ties to all three.
I now look at South Asia through the lens of an outsider.
If India is to fulfill its great destiny, it should make
peace with its neighbors (NOT on Pakistan's terms). It is
for its own benefit.
Ras
PS: I am all for alternative energy sources. Pakistan is
spending $8 Billion a year on its shortage. It is also
spending too many billions on its military (thanks to its dispute with India) which could be used for improving the lot of its people. And after my visit to India, let me
mention that in spite of Bhai arjun's chest pounding, Indians, I observed, could benefit from the same.
It is more in Pakistan's interest to move beyond Kashmir.
And it is in all our interest that there be no more wars in the region.
I am not sure what the solution for Kashmir will be but
let us not keep saying "on Pakistan's terms" because that
went out the window long ago with arjun's "platter".
My reason for mentioning India's energy sources was
not because it would ensure blackmail. Pakistan's water
comes from Kashmir, so it could be in blackmail bind too.
In my article, I was looking at future possibilities of
peace and friendship between India-Pakistan-Bangladesh
because I have ties to all three.
I now look at South Asia through the lens of an outsider.
If India is to fulfill its great destiny, it should make
peace with its neighbors (NOT on Pakistan's terms). It is
for its own benefit.
Ras
PS: I am all for alternative energy sources. Pakistan is
spending $8 Billion a year on its shortage. It is also
spending too many billions on its military (thanks to its dispute with India) which could be used for improving the lot of its people. And after my visit to India, let me
mention that in spite of Bhai arjun's chest pounding, Indians, I observed, could benefit from the same.
It is more in Pakistan's interest to move beyond Kashmir.
And it is in all our interest that there be no more wars in the region.
#673 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 8:00:20 am
zakir naik bhai ne samajhaya nahi ki his Hindu neighbors and his Indian compatriots are simply beyond reason? :(
#672 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 7:28:13 am
Because we are bad people, dawa. Remember, we have rejected Allah's message. How can we know of what justice and goodness is? Please explain :)
#671 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:26:34 am
OK ..i am asking about seperate land of muslims...dont take off the debate ...tell me..why you not give this below mentiod areas to 200 millions muslims...
#670 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:24:44 am
Re: # 667 then have a debate live with Dr zakir..and if he will defeat him..i will accept this fact....
#669 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:24:19 am
Re: # 667 then have a debate live with Dr zakir..and if he will defeat him..i will accept this fact....
#668 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:23:10 am
Its thier basic right..how can you negate that..Usmanistan is a dreamland of 200 million smulims with borders with Pakistan...in Raishtan side with Dhakkan ..Aurang abad...Jaipur ...some Gujrat ..and MAharashtar etc..while fill the empty space of UP muslims with hindus..but remeber ...this transfer should be peaceful...
#667 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 7:19:43 am
dawa, if laddu claimed to the world's greatest authority on Islam ever, why would you not believe him?
#666 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:17:29 am
why you people not willing to give 200 millions muslims thier basic right of seperate land ...why why why ???
#665 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:10:52 am
Re: # 660 no ..no..i want a seperate land insideindia...after all..we have ruled it for 1000 years..and you were under us....yaad hai na sub...
tumhai yaad hau kai na yaad hau...hehehehe
tumhai yaad hau kai na yaad hau...hehehehe
#664 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:07:32 am
Laddu and Kalchakkra
bring me a single hindu..not from India..but from whoel world..which is parallel to Dr Zakir in hindu scripture understanding....
actually..you are just shameful how he defeated Sri Sri Shankar Jee..and smacked down him fully on 21 January...2006..in Banglore...with event..concept of God..in hinduism and islam...
bring me a single hindu..not from India..but from whoel world..which is parallel to Dr Zakir in hindu scripture understanding....
actually..you are just shameful how he defeated Sri Sri Shankar Jee..and smacked down him fully on 21 January...2006..in Banglore...with event..concept of God..in hinduism and islam...
#663 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 7:05:14 am
Re: # 659
kashmir is the core issue..lets wait when Al Qaeda will just to leave Iraq and Afghanistan after defeating...your whole india ..will me a little mouse for Al Qaeda..as it has already defeated the forces of 3 continents and whole Europe(NATO)....as per Gen Aslam Baig said yesterday...
kashmir is the core issue..lets wait when Al Qaeda will just to leave Iraq and Afghanistan after defeating...your whole india ..will me a little mouse for Al Qaeda..as it has already defeated the forces of 3 continents and whole Europe(NATO)....as per Gen Aslam Baig said yesterday...
#662 Posted by KaalChakra on August 15, 2007 6:44:18 am
laddu, dawa bhai, I don't know how to put it more politely, relying on zakir naik type for understanding Gita is like relying a pig to explain what is in the Harvard Medical School's Handbook on Cleanliness (or you can reverse that and make him a Professor of Cleanliness and the Gita the manual for pigs - hardly matters).
Bhaiyon, the two have the not the remotest connection. But it definitely is a fault of the Hindus for letting Zakir Naik (an Indian - that always amazes me) be a 'spokesperson'.
Bhaiyon, the two have the not the remotest connection. But it definitely is a fault of the Hindus for letting Zakir Naik (an Indian - that always amazes me) be a 'spokesperson'.
#661 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 4:22:54 am
Re: # 657
Hey Dawah ji,
that is purely a dawah propaganda from Zakir Naik. You can believe it because it suits your monotheistic agendas.
Hey Dawah ji,
that is purely a dawah propaganda from Zakir Naik. You can believe it because it suits your monotheistic agendas.
#660 Posted by laddu on August 15, 2007 4:18:25 am
Re: # 655
We would love to ship to pure land those who want to live in a muslim home land!!
We would love to ship to pure land those who want to live in a muslim home land!!
#659 Posted by masanamuthu on August 15, 2007 3:33:02 am
Re: # 616
Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves. The challenge is to do so as objectively as possible. It shouldn't be done to abuse Muslims or to denounce Islam. If the Quran is studied objectively but from a non-Muslim point of view, the excercise would be beneficial for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
ROFL.. Kaalchakra, whatever spin anyone tries to put on it and how much ever objective I look at the Quran, It has just hellfire and brimstone to offer for the polytheists/idolators.
If you look at the history of Mohammad and his hordes, they grew up in a polytheistic society and are given the freedom to preach whatever they liked. Mohammad was not the only one who claimed he was the "prophet" at that time. There were a few others too who claimed to speak to God. Just that his story stuck because of the right circumstances.
Mohammad claimed "persecution from polytheists in Mecca" and fled to Medina with his gang (called Mohajirs ) where he had some supporters called "Ansars". There were a few jewish tribes in Medina at that time that got ethnic cleansed over time.. Then the "believers" marched on victoriously over the "polytheists" in Mecca and from that day I beleive not even a single "polytheist" was allowed to set his/her foto in Mecca. "Idolatory/Polytheism" is the worst sin in Islam/Quran and the folks who practise it come in for some "very special treatment".
You can see the parallels from the above story in the case of India, Pakistan and Mohajirs..
You yourself ask for the study of Quran to be objective but enforce the limits on it (that is not to denounce Islam / Muslims). I don't think that would be called an objective study based on facts and truth. maybe "objective study according to Sharia"..
:-)
Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves. The challenge is to do so as objectively as possible. It shouldn't be done to abuse Muslims or to denounce Islam. If the Quran is studied objectively but from a non-Muslim point of view, the excercise would be beneficial for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
ROFL.. Kaalchakra, whatever spin anyone tries to put on it and how much ever objective I look at the Quran, It has just hellfire and brimstone to offer for the polytheists/idolators.
If you look at the history of Mohammad and his hordes, they grew up in a polytheistic society and are given the freedom to preach whatever they liked. Mohammad was not the only one who claimed he was the "prophet" at that time. There were a few others too who claimed to speak to God. Just that his story stuck because of the right circumstances.
Mohammad claimed "persecution from polytheists in Mecca" and fled to Medina with his gang (called Mohajirs ) where he had some supporters called "Ansars". There were a few jewish tribes in Medina at that time that got ethnic cleansed over time.. Then the "believers" marched on victoriously over the "polytheists" in Mecca and from that day I beleive not even a single "polytheist" was allowed to set his/her foto in Mecca. "Idolatory/Polytheism" is the worst sin in Islam/Quran and the folks who practise it come in for some "very special treatment".
You can see the parallels from the above story in the case of India, Pakistan and Mohajirs..
You yourself ask for the study of Quran to be objective but enforce the limits on it (that is not to denounce Islam / Muslims). I don't think that would be called an objective study based on facts and truth. maybe "objective study according to Sharia"..
:-)
#658 Posted by AlephNull on August 15, 2007 1:49:54 am
Ras #621
A good part of this post is a reiteration of the Pakistani establishment’s decades-old refrain that the Kashmir dispute is the key - the ‘core issue’, that it has retarded the development of the nations of the Indian subcont --- sorry, ‘South Asia’, that its resolution on Pakistan’s terms will usher in a new era. All that was lacking was that tired cliché, ‘ground realities’. The internal causes of past under-development in these countries, the endogenous reasons for India’s rapid current development, Pakistan’s internal political dynamic, and the Pakistani establishment’s imperatives for insisting on only a certain kind of ‘solution’, are nowhere mentioned.
These inanities have been beaten into the ground so many times, and so thoroughly, that a repetition would be pointless. What might merit passing mention is Ras sahib’s assertion that
{{India's future energy source may be coming through both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms with both of them.}}
Here is a looming alternative scenario that Ras sahib and other Pakistanis might want to consider. In twenty years from now, a good portion of India’s energy might be coming from Olympic Dam in Australia, or from Niger, or South Africa. In thirty-five years, a large and increasing fraction might come from the beach sands of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Orissa. In the very long term, perhaps, from sea-water – one way or another. Clean, compact, non-polluting, zero-emissions, virtually inexhaustible.
If Pakistan overplays its hand it risks being left high and dry with absolutely no benefit from India’s economic boom. By trying to be a barrier preventing Indian access to Central Asia, it will guarantee that India preferentially invests in every other alternative first, and ensure that India has absolutely no positive stake in Pakistan.
Knowing the usual grandiose Pakistani delusions, I expect that something like this will actually happen. Thirty years from now, the current gap between India and Pakistan might have grown manifold. Meanwhile, on some successor to Chowk, Pakistani intellectuals may be holding forth on ‘Kashmir – the core issue’, pointing to ‘ground realities’, insisting that “the ball is India’s court”, reassuring themselves that “Pakistan is not that far behind”, etc. etc., as though nothing has changed.
A good part of this post is a reiteration of the Pakistani establishment’s decades-old refrain that the Kashmir dispute is the key - the ‘core issue’, that it has retarded the development of the nations of the Indian subcont --- sorry, ‘South Asia’, that its resolution on Pakistan’s terms will usher in a new era. All that was lacking was that tired cliché, ‘ground realities’. The internal causes of past under-development in these countries, the endogenous reasons for India’s rapid current development, Pakistan’s internal political dynamic, and the Pakistani establishment’s imperatives for insisting on only a certain kind of ‘solution’, are nowhere mentioned.
These inanities have been beaten into the ground so many times, and so thoroughly, that a repetition would be pointless. What might merit passing mention is Ras sahib’s assertion that
{{India's future energy source may be coming through both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms with both of them.}}
Here is a looming alternative scenario that Ras sahib and other Pakistanis might want to consider. In twenty years from now, a good portion of India’s energy might be coming from Olympic Dam in Australia, or from Niger, or South Africa. In thirty-five years, a large and increasing fraction might come from the beach sands of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Orissa. In the very long term, perhaps, from sea-water – one way or another. Clean, compact, non-polluting, zero-emissions, virtually inexhaustible.
If Pakistan overplays its hand it risks being left high and dry with absolutely no benefit from India’s economic boom. By trying to be a barrier preventing Indian access to Central Asia, it will guarantee that India preferentially invests in every other alternative first, and ensure that India has absolutely no positive stake in Pakistan.
Knowing the usual grandiose Pakistani delusions, I expect that something like this will actually happen. Thirty years from now, the current gap between India and Pakistan might have grown manifold. Meanwhile, on some successor to Chowk, Pakistani intellectuals may be holding forth on ‘Kashmir – the core issue’, pointing to ‘ground realities’, insisting that “the ball is India’s court”, reassuring themselves that “Pakistan is not that far behind”, etc. etc., as though nothing has changed.
#657 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 15, 2007 12:02:33 am
i already said that ...Gitas negate idol worship..but you people blindly follow...pundits ..not your scriptures...
#656 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 11:44:47 pm
dawa-i-dil, array yaara, I pray to those damn stones, and when bored, I pray to HP Himself. Even to zee, except that Zee is too Muslim to this unGodly behavior so I need to pray to Him without Him knowing about it. My prayers are for fun alone. 47, 48, 49 - my prayers are too weak to change those things :)
#655 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 14, 2007 11:35:18 pm
Re: # 653 fine..we will give you funds ..as we love minorities...but i am saying why you not give 200 millions muslims thier seperate homeland inside india...why ???
#654 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 14, 2007 11:34:10 pm
Re: # 651 those prayers workeed in 1947 also...hehehe..remember
#653 Posted by laddu on August 14, 2007 10:59:37 pm
clifton bi ji,
I am not interested in re-building already desecrated temples or broken idols.
As per the Agama shastra we should immediately discard the broken idols.
I am interested in building a NEW 100 acre land temple in Islamabad- perhaps a feat no one would have accompalished since the days of partition in Pakistan.
I am not interested in re-building already desecrated temples or broken idols.
As per the Agama shastra we should immediately discard the broken idols.
I am interested in building a NEW 100 acre land temple in Islamabad- perhaps a feat no one would have accompalished since the days of partition in Pakistan.
#652 Posted by laddu on August 14, 2007 10:55:25 pm
Re: # 637
hey clifton bi ji,
I told you, I have many muslim friends in India who come to my home and appreciate the Ganesha idol installed in my drawing room and do not feel offended.
I want to built a huge temple in Islamabad!!
hey clifton bi ji,
I told you, I have many muslim friends in India who come to my home and appreciate the Ganesha idol installed in my drawing room and do not feel offended.
I want to built a huge temple in Islamabad!!
#651 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 10:42:24 pm
If prayers will help, will do my best to keep you sober. :) :)
#650 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 14, 2007 10:41:33 pm
I mean to say..even 1947 ..your " in divideable Dharti MAtta" waw divided..so better for indians to divide it more ..rathet than Ghazvai Hind start...
#649 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 14, 2007 10:39:26 pm
arjun..why you coward hindus not give 200 millions muslims thier basic right of freedom...
as you once not given to Kashmiris ..for 60 years..????
as you once not given to Kashmiris ..for 60 years..????
#648 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:38:05 pm
#644 Posted by KaalChakra
Kaal, I wanted to be on that board but I saw anull here posting inanities and decided to take a look. Any way, I have a great post coming on that board. Just pray that I am not too much intoxicated before I finish it.
Kaal, I wanted to be on that board but I saw anull here posting inanities and decided to take a look. Any way, I have a great post coming on that board. Just pray that I am not too much intoxicated before I finish it.
#647 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 10:35:49 pm
dawa-i-dimag: you're a troll, and not a very amusing one at that...I wouldn't be surprised if you're the same as laddu and ahmedmadani(and possibly borivili express)
#646 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 10:34:14 pm
so explain to me how all this has become possible without normalizing relations with the land of the pure(i.e. giving up kashmir to the land of the pure)
From TOI/Forbes...
'India top spot for riches in Asia'
WASHINGTON: From being one of the poorest economies six decades ago to becoming a "top spot" today, India has come a long way, Forbes says in a special report even as it lists more billionaires in India worth $191 billion than in any other Asian nation. "India's top 10, worth $112 billion, account for two-thirds of that wealth," it says in the report ‘India at 60'.
"India's rising fortunes are underscored by the increasing prosperity of its wealthiest citizens," it adds, as it lists 36 billionaires in the country. "India was one of the world's poorest economies when it won its independence from Britain in 1947. Incredibly, 60 years later, the country's emerging economic clout has made it Asia's top spot for billionaires."
This year, for the first time in two decades of tracking, Forbes counted more Indians than Japanese billionaires. Three Indians made it to the list of top 20 of the world's richest and only the US had more billionaires than India.
"We have made decent progress in several areas during the last 60 years. We have produced world-class scientists, engineers, journalists, soldiers, bureaucrats, politicians and doctors," says NR Narayana Murthy, the co-founder of Infosys and among those in the rich list.
Nimesh Kampani, chairperson of the JM Financial Group, predicts 100 billionaires by 2009 representing diverse fields. "There's lots more that lies beneath."
LN Mittal is the richest Indian worth $25 billion, followed by Mukesh and Anil, who unseated Wipro group's chairman Azim Premji, who had been India's richest resident for several years. "India was a relatively sleepy place for the world's wealthiest until three years ago. With just nine billionaires in 2004, none ranked higher than 58," says Forbes.
Forbes says many tycoons have been in the news for negotiating big deals. Venugopal Dhoot is set to acquire Daewoo Electronics for $700 million. KM Birla paid $1 billion to buy the Tata Group's stake in their telecom joint venture Idea.
From TOI/Forbes...
'India top spot for riches in Asia'
WASHINGTON: From being one of the poorest economies six decades ago to becoming a "top spot" today, India has come a long way, Forbes says in a special report even as it lists more billionaires in India worth $191 billion than in any other Asian nation. "India's top 10, worth $112 billion, account for two-thirds of that wealth," it says in the report ‘India at 60'.
"India's rising fortunes are underscored by the increasing prosperity of its wealthiest citizens," it adds, as it lists 36 billionaires in the country. "India was one of the world's poorest economies when it won its independence from Britain in 1947. Incredibly, 60 years later, the country's emerging economic clout has made it Asia's top spot for billionaires."
This year, for the first time in two decades of tracking, Forbes counted more Indians than Japanese billionaires. Three Indians made it to the list of top 20 of the world's richest and only the US had more billionaires than India.
"We have made decent progress in several areas during the last 60 years. We have produced world-class scientists, engineers, journalists, soldiers, bureaucrats, politicians and doctors," says NR Narayana Murthy, the co-founder of Infosys and among those in the rich list.
Nimesh Kampani, chairperson of the JM Financial Group, predicts 100 billionaires by 2009 representing diverse fields. "There's lots more that lies beneath."
LN Mittal is the richest Indian worth $25 billion, followed by Mukesh and Anil, who unseated Wipro group's chairman Azim Premji, who had been India's richest resident for several years. "India was a relatively sleepy place for the world's wealthiest until three years ago. With just nine billionaires in 2004, none ranked higher than 58," says Forbes.
Forbes says many tycoons have been in the news for negotiating big deals. Venugopal Dhoot is set to acquire Daewoo Electronics for $700 million. KM Birla paid $1 billion to buy the Tata Group's stake in their telecom joint venture Idea.
#645 Posted by dawa-i-dil on August 14, 2007 10:32:43 pm
O slaves and 3rd class muslims of india...wake up..revolt aginst the indin government and demand a seperate land near Hyderabad Aurang abad..etc
#644 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 10:32:40 pm
HP, quit wasting time with us Indians here, boss :)
Really, somehow, I kept feeling that your presence was required on that Jinnah/Hoodbhoy board...that you may be one person who might have a different take on emerging consensus...Your political savy is needed there...
[That would also leave cliftonbridge alone to us :)]
Really, somehow, I kept feeling that your presence was required on that Jinnah/Hoodbhoy board...that you may be one person who might have a different take on emerging consensus...Your political savy is needed there...
[That would also leave cliftonbridge alone to us :)]
#643 Posted by einsteinwallah on August 14, 2007 10:31:38 pm
Why would India come to depend on any mechanism for which it can be held at ransom by Pakistan and/or Bangladesh? Oil is coming even now, it will continue to come the way it is now. Economic forces will prevail and oil will continue to be sold to India the way it is now. Pipeline which is not guaranteed to continue functioning, which is always in danger of becoming bargaining chip cancels all benefits India gets from it. India's economic juggernaut is unstoppable. With petroleum coming by pipe or ships. Once oil wells become uneconomical because of world learning to grow efficiently bio-diesel plants Arabia will go back to its Bedouin past. With them will go Pakistan. If Pakistan cannot guarantee to USA security why any country let alone India should trust Pakistan. Pakistan is big loser because of 9/11 and ownership of nukes which are seen by west in perennial danger of falling in "wrong" hands. It is just a matter of time before western intelligence manages to get information or disinformation on jihadic elements in Pakistan wanting to use nukes before Pakistan is made to go the Iraq way. So hallucinate by all means about ever India handing over Kashmir to Pakistan, like your prophet did about direct line with God. Let me write my punchline: Pakistan Ka Matlab Kya Hai? Pakistan Ka Matlab Hai: Lailaj.
#642 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:28:56 pm
#639 Posted by cliftonbridge
"HP squash is a game with rules !!! "
It has both hard and soft balls. you know....
Or were you talking about the tweedy show on Sunday. I believe!
"HP squash is a game with rules !!! "
It has both hard and soft balls. you know....
Or were you talking about the tweedy show on Sunday. I believe!
#641 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 10:27:57 pm
http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/05/india-independence-anniversary-oped-cx_daa_0813 india_land.html
Forbes coverage of India at 60.
Forbes coverage of India at 60.
#640 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:27:08 pm
Interestingly, Asiatimes is one of the fav tabs on Firefox. Which means I get to see that site every evening.I may not read it every night as I guess it updates once or twice a week.
#638 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 10:21:53 pm
The US govt modifies the NIE report to put pressure on pakiland..
Dubya says heel
Mushy complies and unleashes artillery and helicopter gunships on the tribals
and some people still harbor delusions on pakiland's options..especially in light of the fact that rice's call kept mushy from declaring an emergency...
Dubya says heel
Mushy complies and unleashes artillery and helicopter gunships on the tribals
and some people still harbor delusions on pakiland's options..especially in light of the fact that rice's call kept mushy from declaring an emergency...
#637 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 10:21:30 pm
hey HP ! maybe laddu can change, maybe he cant. Maybe someone else can see the self evident truth addressed to him , for others ...there is always UP :)
#636 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:21:28 pm
#634 Posted by cliftonbridge
"first rule of hardball is that there are no rules in hardball"
Are we talking Squash here!
"first rule of hardball is that there are no rules in hardball"
Are we talking Squash here!
#635 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:20:06 pm
Correction
Nayone whio calls himself laddu
I guess you can figure out what I meant! heheheh
Nayone whio calls himself laddu
I guess you can figure out what I meant! heheheh
#634 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 10:19:35 pm
Re: # 629
oh and the first rule of hardball is that there are no rules in hardball which is why i keep it on UP ....lol...
oh and the first rule of hardball is that there are no rules in hardball which is why i keep it on UP ....lol...
#633 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:19:04 pm
#631 Posted by cliftonbridge
Aren't you paying a little too much attention to that spammer? Nayone whio calls himself laddu is a laddu!
You think he will listen to you. Use better judgment sometime and use your very well thought out arguments and debating skills with someone who actually understand what you are talking about....
For instance...hehehehe...
For the other Laddu ch#1, CIA is close to my heart always!
Aren't you paying a little too much attention to that spammer? Nayone whio calls himself laddu is a laddu!
You think he will listen to you. Use better judgment sometime and use your very well thought out arguments and debating skills with someone who actually understand what you are talking about....
For instance...hehehehe...
For the other Laddu ch#1, CIA is close to my heart always!
#632 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 10:16:40 pm
HAHA..M K Bhadrakumar is a correspondent for the asia times...you know..the asia times you so famously exposed as a front for some secret agencies...the asia times YOU said wasn't credible...
#631 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 10:10:01 pm
laddu i am not exactly shocked that you'd call me an apologist blah blah blah its a pretty old refrain and at this point the last refuge for a wound up emotional person whose allegations are not borne out by reality.
Anyway i am enclosing articles of the CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN....not my personal "dear diary i wish the world was whatevr". If you chose to be rational you will see that pakistani muslims who will never refute the word of the Quran have agreed its encumbent on them to not destroy idols and make dhimmi's out of their fellow nonmuslim pakistani's. Ofcourse thats a less hysterical way to look at the world and maybe a point of view you cant let yourself accept. I would never deny the injuistices done to minorities in pakistan but your contention that being a believing muslim automatically means muslim leaders/masses are out to prey on nonmuslims and what not is clearly false as evidenced :
Article 2: Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan.13
Article 20: Subject to law, public order and morality: (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
Article 21: No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax, the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own.
Article 22 (1): No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relate to a religion other than his own.
(2): In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation.
(3): Subject to law, (a) no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and (b) no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth.
Anyway i am enclosing articles of the CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN....not my personal "dear diary i wish the world was whatevr". If you chose to be rational you will see that pakistani muslims who will never refute the word of the Quran have agreed its encumbent on them to not destroy idols and make dhimmi's out of their fellow nonmuslim pakistani's. Ofcourse thats a less hysterical way to look at the world and maybe a point of view you cant let yourself accept. I would never deny the injuistices done to minorities in pakistan but your contention that being a believing muslim automatically means muslim leaders/masses are out to prey on nonmuslims and what not is clearly false as evidenced :
Article 2: Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan.13
Article 20: Subject to law, public order and morality: (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
Article 21: No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax, the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own.
Article 22 (1): No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relate to a religion other than his own.
(2): In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation.
(3): Subject to law, (a) no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and (b) no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth.
#630 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 10:09:19 pm
Now I am not into this habit of copy pasting articles from the web but I guess I am under the influence or am just being lazy.
Here is another article from Rediff. Please do read the complete article.
I am posting this here because of the article pasted here post ##626
http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/15/op.htm#3
Slippery base of foreign policy By Zubeida Mustafa( and she is reading too much in to the whole saga!)
I would say listen to this one intelligent (finally)Indian who really can figure out what is going on. Incidentally, I had already broached on this subject in some of my posts here. I don’t know why I get the feeling that Mr. Bhadrakumar reads chowk and especially my posts to get ideas for his articles.
Anyway, read it and understand this POV. I will be glad to answer any questions on this article.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/14guest.htm
The US cannot dictate to Pakistan
M K Bhadrakumar
“A besieged military ruler threatens to resort to emergency rule, suspending all residual pretensions of democratic rule, but in the event is forced to 'blink' as the spectre of an eruption of popular disaffection suddenly comes to haunt him. He quickly backtracks. Period.
That's how in common perception, foreign observers, especially in neighbouring India, have portrayed last week's developments in Pakistan.
Such a portrayal may seem appealing in our age of democracy, especially as Pakistan stands poised at the threshold of the 60th anniversary of its independence. But, like with any simplification, it overlooks the complexities of the Pakistan question.
Arguably, President Pervez Musharraf's principal audience was not even the Pakistani vox populi. Three aspects must be noted. First, Musharraf is not operating in a vacuum. He is a representative of the Pakistani establishment. All decisions are taken on behalf of the establishment.
It is entirely conceivable that at some stage if Musharraf finds himself in a cul-de-sac in the coming weeks, he may hand over power to another general.
Second, it wasn't a mere coincidence that in the shadow of the cascading speculation regarding imminent emergency rule, the Pakistan national assembly held a special four-day debate exclusively devoted to the government's foreign policy.”
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/14guest.htm
For more use the link above
#629 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 10:02:06 pm
:) anil thanks for being such a sane person and interacting on chowk at the same time which almost never happens...
#628 Posted by HP on August 14, 2007 9:55:04 pm
#619 Posted by ANull
“Arabic dhimmi becomes zimmi in the Indian subcontinent, just as dhikr becomes zikr, dharb becomes zarb, Ramadan becomes Ramzan, etc.”
Actually the correct Arabic words are Zimmi, Zarb, Zikr and Ramazan. I am not sure why they became Dhimmi, Ramadhan etc in English. I guess it has something to with where the emphasis is on letter ‘Z’. Like no one would say Adhaan, it is always azaan or the name Zaid. Most Arabs would say Zaid like Shaiklh Zaid bin Sultan Al-Nahyan of Dubai. But for some reason Riaz(SA city) is Riadh.
It is not a good idea to show how ignorant you are time and time again. Dolt!
Zimmi dari is not an Urdu word or the combination of words and that’s why I think Tolkinin confused that with Zamindari.
The other closest word to Zimmi dari would be zimmahdari which means responsibility.
Be careful next time. Don't venture in to things you have no knowledge which is almost everything!
“Arabic dhimmi becomes zimmi in the Indian subcontinent, just as dhikr becomes zikr, dharb becomes zarb, Ramadan becomes Ramzan, etc.”
Actually the correct Arabic words are Zimmi, Zarb, Zikr and Ramazan. I am not sure why they became Dhimmi, Ramadhan etc in English. I guess it has something to with where the emphasis is on letter ‘Z’. Like no one would say Adhaan, it is always azaan or the name Zaid. Most Arabs would say Zaid like Shaiklh Zaid bin Sultan Al-Nahyan of Dubai. But for some reason Riaz(SA city) is Riadh.
It is not a good idea to show how ignorant you are time and time again. Dolt!
Zimmi dari is not an Urdu word or the combination of words and that’s why I think Tolkinin confused that with Zamindari.
The other closest word to Zimmi dari would be zimmahdari which means responsibility.
Be careful next time. Don't venture in to things you have no knowledge which is almost everything!
#627 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 9:49:38 pm
tahmed sahib, actually opposition from priestly classes has certainly been a factor, but as you can see there is an inbuilt opposition between Islam and polytheism, idol/nature worshipping.
Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever made an attempt to connect the two., except across bridges of hatred, contempt, and ultimately violence (other than simply ignoring the oppositions, of course).
Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever made an attempt to connect the two., except across bridges of hatred, contempt, and ultimately violence (other than simply ignoring the oppositions, of course).
#626 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 9:44:24 pm
Don't like hearing the reality from indians? fine..here's reality in the words of a paki...in j-man's newspaper too..
http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/15/op.htm#3
Slippery base of foreign policy
By Zubeida Mustafa
WHEN Pakistan’s foreign policy came in the line of fire in the National Assembly last week, one wished that the level of the debate had been more informed and intelligent. But what can one expect from parliamentarians who are too busy with their own pursuits and have no time to even attend Assembly sessions regularly, let aside do their homework?
When Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri rose to wind up the debate, there were barely 40 members in the House. The quorum required is 86 and since the opposition did not point out the lack of quorum, the debate could proceed.
The opposition and surprisingly some members of the ruling Muslim League as well were childishly vociferous in denouncing President Musharraf’s close alliance with the United States in its war on terror that has brought so much humiliation to Pakistan. This made the foreign minister’s job of putting up a spirited defence of his government’s performance quite easy. He promptly listed a series of the foreign office’s ‘foreign policy successes’, as he termed them.
The entire debate was quite superficial. One member, incidentally from the ruling party, a retired major from the army and the parliamentary secretary of defence, did not even attempt to define the policy. He just lashed out in all directions, suggesting that the country should fight a jihad against India and the US, extend recognition to the Taliban – as though one mistake in 1997 were not enough – and dispatch infiltrators into the Kashmir Valley to take revenge.
A closer look at the foreign policy scenario, especially in the context of the developments taking place in the region, leaves one quite stupefied at the lack of understanding among our MNAs of how foreign policy works. Equally baffling is the ad hoc manner in which Pakistan’s policymakers treat this important area of public life.
What emerges from Mr Kasuri’s statement is that our foreign policy focuses primarily on our strategic and security ties with China, the US, the EU and the Muslim world. Obtaining economic assistance and investment from these countries also figures prominently on our foreign policy agenda. What is strange is that the foreign minister chose to brush aside the two most important elements that are actually vital to the shaping of the entire gamut of our foreign relations. These are Pakistan’s equations with India and Afghanistan.
The government appears to be shy about debating the South Asian sector of our foreign relations — notably our ties with India and Afghanistan — and would like to wish it away like an embarrassing dream. But, unfortunately, that is not how diplomacy operates and the government would do better to face squarely some of the facts of life that we have so far refused to recognise. This refusal has cost Islamabad dearly. It has led it to commit blunders of the worst kind while formulating and conducting its foreign and geo-strategic relations. In the process, the country has had to toe the American line with undignified servility.
One of the basic premises on which the foreign office proceeds is that India is our enemy number one. This is not articulated so candidly now as it was a few years ago. But in a subtle way, Islamabad continues to regard New Delhi as its detractor.
For example, take Mr Kasuri’s speech in the National Assembly. While listing his government’s achievements in the field of foreign affairs one item that he mentioned — in fact, the only one in the political context pertaining to India — was his success in blocking India’s ambition to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
Kashmir is made out to be the core issue that has blocked friendship between the two countries. But only 48 per cent of the respondents in Pakistan in a survey conducted by Dawn News said that the territory should be a part of their country while 45 per cent believed that friendship with India was possible without the issue being resolved.
Pakistan has yet to become aware of some basic tenets in conducting external relations. No country opens fronts on every side. Although a dialogue is taking place with New Delhi, the government’s tone is wary and the adversarial undertone in Pakistan’s foreign policy continues to be quite pronounced. The sense of antagonism is so strong that Islamabad’s Afghan policy has been shaped accordingly.
These contradictions have also affected the war efforts against the extremists. As such Pakistan has, at least until recently, resorted to the use of covert methods by its secret agencies to keep the pot boiling in Kashmir and also in Afghanistan.
If the country now finds itself overly dependent on the United States, it is not strange. Sensing Islamabad’s limited manoeuvrability, Washington has exploited the situation to its advantage and put pressure on Pakistan when it deems it necessary, even threatening to use military action against the Taliban safe havens on Pakistani territory. Hence, the outpouring of the anti-American sentiments in the country that we witnessed last week. But swinging to the other end is no answer.
Pakistan has been behaving like a big power in the conduct of its foreign policy. It appears to forget the constraints it suffers from in terms of its resources and its relative size and status as a neighbour of India. Competing with India is not a sensible strategy since it only adds to our contradictions.
Besides it is now time for Pakistan to recognise that its moorings should be firmly rooted in South Asia. A non-adversarial relationship with India will help Pakistan to maintain a dignified distance from the US without making an enemy out of it.
A glaring example of our mishandling of our policy vis-à-vis India is the case of our fateful decision in 1998 to become a nuclear power. This was prompted by our conventional policy of waging an arms race with New Delhi. The danger we now face is that this nuclear capability might prove to be a white elephant as the US and other powers debate the possibility of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons falling into the hands of Al Qaeda.
The political crisis in the country has intensified this debate and there is now talk of America launching air strikes against Pakistan’s nuclear facilities. The Bush administration claims to have knowledge of their location. Can Pakistan resist this onslaught?
http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/15/op.htm#3
Slippery base of foreign policy
By Zubeida Mustafa
WHEN Pakistan’s foreign policy came in the line of fire in the National Assembly last week, one wished that the level of the debate had been more informed and intelligent. But what can one expect from parliamentarians who are too busy with their own pursuits and have no time to even attend Assembly sessions regularly, let aside do their homework?
When Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri rose to wind up the debate, there were barely 40 members in the House. The quorum required is 86 and since the opposition did not point out the lack of quorum, the debate could proceed.
The opposition and surprisingly some members of the ruling Muslim League as well were childishly vociferous in denouncing President Musharraf’s close alliance with the United States in its war on terror that has brought so much humiliation to Pakistan. This made the foreign minister’s job of putting up a spirited defence of his government’s performance quite easy. He promptly listed a series of the foreign office’s ‘foreign policy successes’, as he termed them.
The entire debate was quite superficial. One member, incidentally from the ruling party, a retired major from the army and the parliamentary secretary of defence, did not even attempt to define the policy. He just lashed out in all directions, suggesting that the country should fight a jihad against India and the US, extend recognition to the Taliban – as though one mistake in 1997 were not enough – and dispatch infiltrators into the Kashmir Valley to take revenge.
A closer look at the foreign policy scenario, especially in the context of the developments taking place in the region, leaves one quite stupefied at the lack of understanding among our MNAs of how foreign policy works. Equally baffling is the ad hoc manner in which Pakistan’s policymakers treat this important area of public life.
What emerges from Mr Kasuri’s statement is that our foreign policy focuses primarily on our strategic and security ties with China, the US, the EU and the Muslim world. Obtaining economic assistance and investment from these countries also figures prominently on our foreign policy agenda. What is strange is that the foreign minister chose to brush aside the two most important elements that are actually vital to the shaping of the entire gamut of our foreign relations. These are Pakistan’s equations with India and Afghanistan.
The government appears to be shy about debating the South Asian sector of our foreign relations — notably our ties with India and Afghanistan — and would like to wish it away like an embarrassing dream. But, unfortunately, that is not how diplomacy operates and the government would do better to face squarely some of the facts of life that we have so far refused to recognise. This refusal has cost Islamabad dearly. It has led it to commit blunders of the worst kind while formulating and conducting its foreign and geo-strategic relations. In the process, the country has had to toe the American line with undignified servility.
One of the basic premises on which the foreign office proceeds is that India is our enemy number one. This is not articulated so candidly now as it was a few years ago. But in a subtle way, Islamabad continues to regard New Delhi as its detractor.
For example, take Mr Kasuri’s speech in the National Assembly. While listing his government’s achievements in the field of foreign affairs one item that he mentioned — in fact, the only one in the political context pertaining to India — was his success in blocking India’s ambition to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
Kashmir is made out to be the core issue that has blocked friendship between the two countries. But only 48 per cent of the respondents in Pakistan in a survey conducted by Dawn News said that the territory should be a part of their country while 45 per cent believed that friendship with India was possible without the issue being resolved.
Pakistan has yet to become aware of some basic tenets in conducting external relations. No country opens fronts on every side. Although a dialogue is taking place with New Delhi, the government’s tone is wary and the adversarial undertone in Pakistan’s foreign policy continues to be quite pronounced. The sense of antagonism is so strong that Islamabad’s Afghan policy has been shaped accordingly.
These contradictions have also affected the war efforts against the extremists. As such Pakistan has, at least until recently, resorted to the use of covert methods by its secret agencies to keep the pot boiling in Kashmir and also in Afghanistan.
If the country now finds itself overly dependent on the United States, it is not strange. Sensing Islamabad’s limited manoeuvrability, Washington has exploited the situation to its advantage and put pressure on Pakistan when it deems it necessary, even threatening to use military action against the Taliban safe havens on Pakistani territory. Hence, the outpouring of the anti-American sentiments in the country that we witnessed last week. But swinging to the other end is no answer.
Pakistan has been behaving like a big power in the conduct of its foreign policy. It appears to forget the constraints it suffers from in terms of its resources and its relative size and status as a neighbour of India. Competing with India is not a sensible strategy since it only adds to our contradictions.
Besides it is now time for Pakistan to recognise that its moorings should be firmly rooted in South Asia. A non-adversarial relationship with India will help Pakistan to maintain a dignified distance from the US without making an enemy out of it.
A glaring example of our mishandling of our policy vis-à-vis India is the case of our fateful decision in 1998 to become a nuclear power. This was prompted by our conventional policy of waging an arms race with New Delhi. The danger we now face is that this nuclear capability might prove to be a white elephant as the US and other powers debate the possibility of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons falling into the hands of Al Qaeda.
The political crisis in the country has intensified this debate and there is now talk of America launching air strikes against Pakistan’s nuclear facilities. The Bush administration claims to have knowledge of their location. Can Pakistan resist this onslaught?
#625 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 9:36:48 pm
What do the "moderate" pakis think about a poor country like pakistan creating, arming, training, sustaining and supporting the taliban to gain strategic depth in Afghanistan...
It's ok to heap miseries on the hapless afghans as long as it serves the purpose of allah's chosen muslims, the pakis.....right?
It's ok to heap miseries on the hapless afghans as long as it serves the purpose of allah's chosen muslims, the pakis.....right?
#624 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 9:35:18 pm
tahmed32
Instead of non-Muslims in general, the focus should have been on non-semitic, polytheist, idol or nature worshipping people. There are a lot of men and women who are quite proud of these traditions, and there is a need for both sides to understand/appreciate each other.
dost-mittar sahib
My experience is that most people don't sugar-coat or poison-coat. They GENUINELY believe what they say. So outsiders must be open to allowing for a range of possible meanings - just like in the reading of any other text. That is the only way diversity can be understood, anyway. Again, the objective should only be to obtain a better understanding of things as they actually are.
As we meet more and more people, aquisition of this knowledge, at the common-person level, is an urgent task. Right now/Up until now, that explanatory burden has been left to people like Zakir Naik and sundry 'sufis.' The consequence has been that there is too much mutual hatred and contempt between polytheistic idol worshippers and Muslims (in fact anyone who strongly and actively deprecates polytheistic idol/nature worshipping). That is not good.
Instead of non-Muslims in general, the focus should have been on non-semitic, polytheist, idol or nature worshipping people. There are a lot of men and women who are quite proud of these traditions, and there is a need for both sides to understand/appreciate each other.
dost-mittar sahib
My experience is that most people don't sugar-coat or poison-coat. They GENUINELY believe what they say. So outsiders must be open to allowing for a range of possible meanings - just like in the reading of any other text. That is the only way diversity can be understood, anyway. Again, the objective should only be to obtain a better understanding of things as they actually are.
As we meet more and more people, aquisition of this knowledge, at the common-person level, is an urgent task. Right now/Up until now, that explanatory burden has been left to people like Zakir Naik and sundry 'sufis.' The consequence has been that there is too much mutual hatred and contempt between polytheistic idol worshippers and Muslims (in fact anyone who strongly and actively deprecates polytheistic idol/nature worshipping). That is not good.
#623 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 9:29:22 pm
#621 Posted by Ras on August 14, 2007 8:32:52 pm
According to the logic of Partition, Kashmir should have
been a part of Pakistan. But today the Kashmiris would
prefer Independence.
The majority of Indians want Indian Kashmir to be part of India...IF you're so in love with the Kashmiris, offer them instant citizenship to the land of the pure..they should be happy to come to the promised land, right? they'll even get to celebrate your independence day..that should partly make up for the tribals not doing the same
Kashmir is a problem that is the key to every other India-
Pakistan problem. Enough suffering has been caused to two
very poor countries because of this issue and untold misery has become a part of Kashmiri life.
Fine..give up your support of islamic terrorism and things will go back to the pre-1989 situation...
Poor countries should try to give up changing the status quo when they're clearly poorly equipped to do so..
Do pakis really think anyone is going to fall for this "we're all poor so give us kashmir and everything will be fine" line..
India's future energy source may be coming through both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms
with both of them.
why don't you wake up and smell the coffee....India is likely to be a huge economy in the near future and you can only hope to be to india what mexico is to the US..so if you don't want to trade, best of luck with your other neighbors...
maybe you're still hanging on the the pakiland-as-gateway-to-central-asia delusion..
Let there be peace in South Asia so that it can reach
its full potential.
yes..no islamic terrorism backed by the paki government means peace...
Pakis keep telling us India needs pakiland to grow...they've been telling us this for the past how many years now? Guess what, India has grown at more than 9% for the past 3 years...
According to the logic of Partition, Kashmir should have
been a part of Pakistan. But today the Kashmiris would
prefer Independence.
The majority of Indians want Indian Kashmir to be part of India...IF you're so in love with the Kashmiris, offer them instant citizenship to the land of the pure..they should be happy to come to the promised land, right? they'll even get to celebrate your independence day..that should partly make up for the tribals not doing the same
Kashmir is a problem that is the key to every other India-
Pakistan problem. Enough suffering has been caused to two
very poor countries because of this issue and untold misery has become a part of Kashmiri life.
Fine..give up your support of islamic terrorism and things will go back to the pre-1989 situation...
Poor countries should try to give up changing the status quo when they're clearly poorly equipped to do so..
Do pakis really think anyone is going to fall for this "we're all poor so give us kashmir and everything will be fine" line..
India's future energy source may be coming through both Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms
with both of them.
why don't you wake up and smell the coffee....India is likely to be a huge economy in the near future and you can only hope to be to india what mexico is to the US..so if you don't want to trade, best of luck with your other neighbors...
maybe you're still hanging on the the pakiland-as-gateway-to-central-asia delusion..
Let there be peace in South Asia so that it can reach
its full potential.
yes..no islamic terrorism backed by the paki government means peace...
Pakis keep telling us India needs pakiland to grow...they've been telling us this for the past how many years now? Guess what, India has grown at more than 9% for the past 3 years...
#622 Posted by anil on August 14, 2007 9:28:53 pm
Ras:
Only Cliftonbridge, Zeena and Scout can play hardball with Arjun.
Only Cliftonbridge, Zeena and Scout can play hardball with Arjun.
#621 Posted by Ras on August 14, 2007 8:32:52 pm
RE: #576 Posted by arjun2 "The pakis want to be friends with India as long as India hands them over Indian Kashmir on a platter.."
Bhai arjun2, you have become a broken record.
Would you kindly explain to us who are reading and writing
challenged, as to which "Platter" you are referring to?
Kashmir's platter has already been filled by death and
destruction. It is already a bloody dish as the toll mounts.
What people like myself wish for is an end to the madness.
According to the logic of Partition, Kashmir should have
been a part of Pakistan. But today the Kashmiris would
prefer Independence.
If Pakistan was India's only problem in Kashmir, it would
be a lot simpler.
Kashmiris are not a "platter" just contents who can be
given to Pakistan.
Kashmir is a problem that is the key to every other India-
Pakistan problem. Enough suffering has been caused to two
very poor countries because of this issue and untold misery
has become a part of Kashmiri life.
Before we regret our animosity even further, let us try
and close this chapter with some sacrifice and creativity.
Both India and Pakistan can do a lot better without this
issue between them.
I know that Indians are quick to say "Who needs Pakistan?"
India's future energy source may be coming through both
Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms
with both of them.
Let us wake up and smell the coffee shall we?
Let there be peace in South Asia so that it can reach
its full potential. The only thing that has been offered
to its people "on a platter" is misery and poverty. And it
does not need to be that way.
Happy Independence Day!
Ras
Bhai arjun2, you have become a broken record.
Would you kindly explain to us who are reading and writing
challenged, as to which "Platter" you are referring to?
Kashmir's platter has already been filled by death and
destruction. It is already a bloody dish as the toll mounts.
What people like myself wish for is an end to the madness.
According to the logic of Partition, Kashmir should have
been a part of Pakistan. But today the Kashmiris would
prefer Independence.
If Pakistan was India's only problem in Kashmir, it would
be a lot simpler.
Kashmiris are not a "platter" just contents who can be
given to Pakistan.
Kashmir is a problem that is the key to every other India-
Pakistan problem. Enough suffering has been caused to two
very poor countries because of this issue and untold misery
has become a part of Kashmiri life.
Before we regret our animosity even further, let us try
and close this chapter with some sacrifice and creativity.
Both India and Pakistan can do a lot better without this
issue between them.
I know that Indians are quick to say "Who needs Pakistan?"
India's future energy source may be coming through both
Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is best to be on good terms
with both of them.
Let us wake up and smell the coffee shall we?
Let there be peace in South Asia so that it can reach
its full potential. The only thing that has been offered
to its people "on a platter" is misery and poverty. And it
does not need to be that way.
Happy Independence Day!
Ras
#620 Posted by dost_mittar on August 14, 2007 8:29:51 pm
kaal#616:
"Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves."
...and finding it difficult to swallow the sugarcoating by the moderates.
"Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves."
...and finding it difficult to swallow the sugarcoating by the moderates.
#619 Posted by AlephNull on August 14, 2007 7:45:10 pm
Tolkinin #611
{{Its not Zimmi -dari but Zamin Dari which has nothing to do with Hindu or Muslim }}
No he means zimmi, perhaps more familiar as dhimmi, i.e. “disenfranchised non-Muslim subject, forced to pay per-head protection money (jizyah), and subjected to various compulsory civic disabilities such as prohibition from bearing arms and disqualification from testifying against momins”. Arabic dhimmi becomes zimmi in the Indian subcontinent, just as dhikr becomes zikr, dharb becomes zarb, Ramadan becomes Ramzan, etc.
{{Its not Zimmi -dari but Zamin Dari which has nothing to do with Hindu or Muslim }}
No he means zimmi, perhaps more familiar as dhimmi, i.e. “disenfranchised non-Muslim subject, forced to pay per-head protection money (jizyah), and subjected to various compulsory civic disabilities such as prohibition from bearing arms and disqualification from testifying against momins”. Arabic dhimmi becomes zimmi in the Indian subcontinent, just as dhikr becomes zikr, dharb becomes zarb, Ramadan becomes Ramzan, etc.
#618 Posted by tahmed32 on August 14, 2007 7:42:27 pm
kaal: When you say non-muslims, be specific and say "non-muslims from India".
Because, the best known non-muslims scholars from the west who have studied the Quran (Karen Armstrong, Joe Esposito) actually have a very positive things to say not only of its teachings but also about muslim history.
And dont say "objective" when it comes to talking about Indian hindus - you people have shown amply on chowk how much you hate islam, so how can you be objective.
What is this hatred based on? a thousand years of muslim rule? I dont think that alone is sufficient. You wont like my saying this - but a lot of this hatred would very well stem from opposition from the priestly class in hinduism that made easy living on the basis of religion, and the egalitarianism of Islam (which in effect freed the lower castes from brahmin domination) would be anathema to it.
Because, the best known non-muslims scholars from the west who have studied the Quran (Karen Armstrong, Joe Esposito) actually have a very positive things to say not only of its teachings but also about muslim history.
And dont say "objective" when it comes to talking about Indian hindus - you people have shown amply on chowk how much you hate islam, so how can you be objective.
What is this hatred based on? a thousand years of muslim rule? I dont think that alone is sufficient. You wont like my saying this - but a lot of this hatred would very well stem from opposition from the priestly class in hinduism that made easy living on the basis of religion, and the egalitarianism of Islam (which in effect freed the lower castes from brahmin domination) would be anathema to it.
#617 Posted by tahmed32 on August 14, 2007 7:34:34 pm
#603 krishnaabcd: I am worse than wily, as far as you are concerned.
You asked me to compare Cuban GNP with Pakistan GNP, and being "wily" (to use your words), you ignored the fact that Delusional Indian No. 9182 on chowk had compared US-Cuba equation to India-Pakistan. So, there is nothing "wily" in my reminding you what you ignored (i.e. the US vs India per capita income).
So, now I see you are being wilier by...(drum roll)...changing the topic to something else.
The only thing worse than a dud is a "wily" dud. Try being honest instead. Then you will be really "wily". (PS: this may go against your teachings, and I fully expect you to ignore this good advice).
You asked me to compare Cuban GNP with Pakistan GNP, and being "wily" (to use your words), you ignored the fact that Delusional Indian No. 9182 on chowk had compared US-Cuba equation to India-Pakistan. So, there is nothing "wily" in my reminding you what you ignored (i.e. the US vs India per capita income).
So, now I see you are being wilier by...(drum roll)...changing the topic to something else.
The only thing worse than a dud is a "wily" dud. Try being honest instead. Then you will be really "wily". (PS: this may go against your teachings, and I fully expect you to ignore this good advice).
#616 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 7:10:02 pm
laddu, masan
Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves. The challenge is to do so as objectively as possible. It shouldn't be done to abuse Muslims or to denounce Islam. If the Quran is studied objectively but from a non-Muslim point of view, the excercise would be beneficial for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
Well, one thing that is happening now is that more and more people who consciously choose to lead unIslamic lives (polytheists and idol worshippers and such) are beginning to look into the Quran themselves. The challenge is to do so as objectively as possible. It shouldn't be done to abuse Muslims or to denounce Islam. If the Quran is studied objectively but from a non-Muslim point of view, the excercise would be beneficial for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
#615 Posted by laddu on August 14, 2007 7:03:15 pm
Re: # 611
"Its not Zimmi -dari but Zamin Dari which has nothing to do with Hindu or Muslim "
Hey, I am a 100 percent North Indian and now based in that region only.
I also have travelled extensively to south and have seen their idols and temples.
I have many indian muslim friends who frequent my house and I frequent theirs.
I have got out of the dhimmi attitude of trying to fantasize the muslim rule through "Pakeeza" or "mughal -e-azam" .
I have met real nawaabs and kunwars of erstwhile states of indaia. I know what I am talking about .
This is exactly the taqiyya.
"zimmi-dari" is the collection of terror funds from the zimmis who are in contract with the muslims who have allowed them to live as slaves in return for their lives,
The traditionally accepted tax farming of local kings who subjugated the smaller kings and tribes WAS TRANSFORMED into zimmi-dari. The moghuls allowed the older ways of tax farming remain , but turned it into Zimmas.
This was again turned back to "Zamin-dari" when the moghul rule ended and the Britishers.
I do not need to sugar coat the evilness of moghul rulers and nawabs since I do not have any need to "justify" the greatness of religion on whose strenght they committed the atrocities and enslaved my idolator fore fathers.
"Its not Zimmi -dari but Zamin Dari which has nothing to do with Hindu or Muslim "
Hey, I am a 100 percent North Indian and now based in that region only.
I also have travelled extensively to south and have seen their idols and temples.
I have many indian muslim friends who frequent my house and I frequent theirs.
I have got out of the dhimmi attitude of trying to fantasize the muslim rule through "Pakeeza" or "mughal -e-azam" .
I have met real nawaabs and kunwars of erstwhile states of indaia. I know what I am talking about .
This is exactly the taqiyya.
"zimmi-dari" is the collection of terror funds from the zimmis who are in contract with the muslims who have allowed them to live as slaves in return for their lives,
The traditionally accepted tax farming of local kings who subjugated the smaller kings and tribes WAS TRANSFORMED into zimmi-dari. The moghuls allowed the older ways of tax farming remain , but turned it into Zimmas.
This was again turned back to "Zamin-dari" when the moghul rule ended and the Britishers.
I do not need to sugar coat the evilness of moghul rulers and nawabs since I do not have any need to "justify" the greatness of religion on whose strenght they committed the atrocities and enslaved my idolator fore fathers.
#614 Posted by masanamuthu on August 14, 2007 6:54:19 pm
laddu buddy,
you are asking valid questions..
Anyone who picks up a copy of Quran (idolators / polytheists in particular) would be flabbergasted at the amount of hate directed towards them..
I think long years of dhimmitude and being killed for disobediences like obstructing the way to the mosque of Mr. Aurangazeb has made them the perfect dhimmis.
First the polytheists were dhimmis to the Muslims and then the Brits. Because the Brits are themselves aloof of religion and were scared of right wing Christianity, the Hindu (polytheist) dhimmis took to being dhimmis of secularism and it continues till now..
Only now a few confident polytheists stand up and say, "Yeah, yeah I know that stories of monkey God and flying missiles are BS, but your story of a pedophile getting revelations from an angel of a vengeful God smells worse than that BS"..
:-)
you are asking valid questions..
Anyone who picks up a copy of Quran (idolators / polytheists in particular) would be flabbergasted at the amount of hate directed towards them..
I think long years of dhimmitude and being killed for disobediences like obstructing the way to the mosque of Mr. Aurangazeb has made them the perfect dhimmis.
First the polytheists were dhimmis to the Muslims and then the Brits. Because the Brits are themselves aloof of religion and were scared of right wing Christianity, the Hindu (polytheist) dhimmis took to being dhimmis of secularism and it continues till now..
Only now a few confident polytheists stand up and say, "Yeah, yeah I know that stories of monkey God and flying missiles are BS, but your story of a pedophile getting revelations from an angel of a vengeful God smells worse than that BS"..
:-)
#613 Posted by laddu on August 14, 2007 6:45:49 pm
"majority of muslims are not idol breakers, but also they will NEVER renounce any word of the Quran. Let people sort out the intricities of their beliefs for themselves."
That is surprising. For a book that claims to contain simplest of all the messages to comprehend you find "intricacies" in it's hate verses?
Remember, every post 9/11 beheading of kafirs is accompanied by the chant of Allahu.
The fact is that the chant of Allahu while beheading thousands idolators in one go has always been approved by the state maulavis and mullahs as a requirement of the faith.
Ask any of the modern day mullah's-
Is killing of idolators and kafirs who have rejected the message justified by your faith?
The answer is unanimously
- YES!!!.
And you "enlightened moderates" only sit quietly watching the fun of beheadings of idolators and kafirs while calling it "intricacies of faith" that would be sorted out.
Who would "sort it out" when you do NOT have the guts to reject the hate versus!!
This is revolting!!
#612 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 6:43:03 pm
anil ji, arjun's support has always been with yasser, although it may seem hard to tell his support apart from his opposition.
#611 Posted by TOLKININ on August 14, 2007 6:39:47 pm
Laddu
"The zimmi-dari was also calculated in terms of number of innocent idolator zimmis that the muslim nawab could kill wihtout questioning"
I think you are from south India and do not know much about North india ....Its not Zimmi -dari but Zamin Dari which has nothing to do with Hindu or Muslim ..it was collector of tax for the British and they were both hindu and muslim..(zamin is Land or Dharti )it was pretty lucrative position under the raj ....regarding Nawab they are despised by ordinary muslims not for cruelty but flandering and may be loose character by going to patronize dancing girls ( kotha ) ala as depicted in hindi movies if you have heard Pakeezah ,umraon jaan Ada ...
Another misundrstanding in south is that there are not as many famous and renowned Temples in north India like u.P Bihar Bengal b/c they were destroyed ...etc ,,,,Reason is not that temples were destroyed but b/c moghul and other muslim dynasties never ventured to the south there for muslim or islamic influence in the form of urdu ,taj ,qutub minar ,jama masjid like structure are not found in the south.....The moghul and other dynasties remaind in the north that by itself is not a crime atleast at that time but hypothetical theories are atttributed to a historical fact
#610 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 5:58:25 pm
HAHA...being posted in the land of the pure gives US diplomats PTSD..the land of the pure is in the august company of burundi, CAR and haiti...
Four US missions in Pakistan creating PSTD in diplomats
WASHINGTON: Four US missions in Pakistan are among 21 American embassies and consulates around the world called the “unaccompanied embassies and consulates” where either spouses or other dependents are not allowed for security reasons,
In addition to Iraq and Afghanistan, those posts include four missions in Pakistan, three in Saudi Arabia and one each in Burundi, Bosnia, the Central African Republic, Haiti, Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Liberia, Serbia (Kosovo) and Yemen.
The State Department plans to create a new mental care office and require employees to take additional time off to deal with a surge in stress disorders among US diplomats in danger posts abroad, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan, officials said on Tuesday.
The steps were proposed in response to a survey that found up to 17 percent of diplomats serving at such posts may suffer from post traumatic stress disorder or similar problems, the officials said.
The survey was begun in the spring to evaluate mental strains on the US diplomatic corps as its members are asked to serve in growing numbers at increasingly dangerous places, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan, where they are at risk from insurgent attacks. About 2,600 diplomats who have worked over the past five years at the department’s 21 so-called “unaccompanied” embassies and consulates completed the survey.
Four US missions in Pakistan creating PSTD in diplomats
WASHINGTON: Four US missions in Pakistan are among 21 American embassies and consulates around the world called the “unaccompanied embassies and consulates” where either spouses or other dependents are not allowed for security reasons,
In addition to Iraq and Afghanistan, those posts include four missions in Pakistan, three in Saudi Arabia and one each in Burundi, Bosnia, the Central African Republic, Haiti, Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Liberia, Serbia (Kosovo) and Yemen.
The State Department plans to create a new mental care office and require employees to take additional time off to deal with a surge in stress disorders among US diplomats in danger posts abroad, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan, officials said on Tuesday.
The steps were proposed in response to a survey that found up to 17 percent of diplomats serving at such posts may suffer from post traumatic stress disorder or similar problems, the officials said.
The survey was begun in the spring to evaluate mental strains on the US diplomatic corps as its members are asked to serve in growing numbers at increasingly dangerous places, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan, where they are at risk from insurgent attacks. About 2,600 diplomats who have worked over the past five years at the department’s 21 so-called “unaccompanied” embassies and consulates completed the survey.
#609 Posted by anil on August 14, 2007 5:50:32 pm
#607
Cliftonbridge:
"agreed anil. thanks for confirming what i knew to be true."
But you should continue to play hardball with ArjunM. However, you can blame him for point wrongs. You might like to set him straight for his passion to find all things wrong with Pakistan.
At least for once he has supported Yasser's postion on secularism. Is it the outcome of your playing hardball?
Cliftonbridge:
"agreed anil. thanks for confirming what i knew to be true."
But you should continue to play hardball with ArjunM. However, you can blame him for point wrongs. You might like to set him straight for his passion to find all things wrong with Pakistan.
At least for once he has supported Yasser's postion on secularism. Is it the outcome of your playing hardball?
#607 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 3:22:02 pm
agreed anil. thanks for confirming what i knew to be true.
arjun since i have denounced the killing of civilians in the name of any ideology and you cling to the very impartial view that killing unarmed civilians women and children alike is justified and moral everytime you think its a good thing we have to disgaree with your moral high ground here. I dont expect you to suddenly abandon your hatefilled agenda of creating hatred amongst moderate muslims and hindus that you pridely proclaim at every given oppurtunity.
arjun since i have denounced the killing of civilians in the name of any ideology and you cling to the very impartial view that killing unarmed civilians women and children alike is justified and moral everytime you think its a good thing we have to disgaree with your moral high ground here. I dont expect you to suddenly abandon your hatefilled agenda of creating hatred amongst moderate muslims and hindus that you pridely proclaim at every given oppurtunity.
#606 Posted by anil on August 14, 2007 3:15:42 pm
# 601
Cliftonbridge:
"anil i think that the idea of ignoring/burying the hatchet is probably more common in india than on chowk :) "
So true aboout Chowk. "this India" in India seems to be preoccupied in their dreams, Chowk is a different story. The one's I know they either don't know and don't care about the hatchet, or have lost the hatchet.
Cliftonbridge:
"anil i think that the idea of ignoring/burying the hatchet is probably more common in india than on chowk :) "
So true aboout Chowk. "this India" in India seems to be preoccupied in their dreams, Chowk is a different story. The one's I know they either don't know and don't care about the hatchet, or have lost the hatchet.
#605 Posted by arjun2 on August 14, 2007 2:20:07 pm
#602 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14, 2007 1:46:35 pm
2.Terrosism includes loads of nonmuslims i refer you to noam chomsky who is right about that part.
Sorry to rain in on your delusional parade but the current war on terrorism is being fought against islamofascism..terrorism is just one of the methods used by the islamofascists..
You can continue to dwell in your delusional world and convince yourself that it's otherwise...that has no bearing on reality...
islamofascism is at war with
the israelis in israel
indians in india
thai buddhists in thailand
philipino catholics in the phillipines
hindu indonesians in bali
US in afghanistan
US in iraq
With the brits in britain
with the US in the US
etc etc...
2.Terrosism includes loads of nonmuslims i refer you to noam chomsky who is right about that part.
Sorry to rain in on your delusional parade but the current war on terrorism is being fought against islamofascism..terrorism is just one of the methods used by the islamofascists..
You can continue to dwell in your delusional world and convince yourself that it's otherwise...that has no bearing on reality...
islamofascism is at war with
the israelis in israel
indians in india
thai buddhists in thailand
philipino catholics in the phillipines
hindu indonesians in bali
US in afghanistan
US in iraq
With the brits in britain
with the US in the US
etc etc...
#604 Posted by KaalChakra on August 14, 2007 2:18:39 pm
cliffs, laila majnu is probably too extravagant, but it was a wonderful opportunity to get to know people...and one will always be thankful for any and all of life's most beautiful experiences...:)
#603 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 14, 2007 1:58:46 pm
#563 Posted by tahmed32
[krishna: it was an indian who started the tried to equate the India-Pakistan equation with the US-Cuba equation. If you are interested in reality, shouldnt you take note of the the US vs Indian per capita incomes first?
Check that first, then come talk to me. Also, keep in mind what I wrote at the end of that post. So, make sure when responding that you dont give me an opportunity to show you to be yet another example of a duffer from India with a chip on his shoulder. ]
tahmed,
You're an old and wily Chowk campaigner, and as slippery as they come. But you're not going to be able to slip out of THIS one.
The India/Pakistan vs. USA/Cuba comparison is one thing. And we WILL talk about that. But ONLY AFTER you finish a point that YOU MADE EARLIER than my India/USA comparison.
Tell us, WHY is it that it is IMPERATIVE for India to "cooperate" with Pakistan?
What happens if we don't, and just maintain the status quo?
[krishna: it was an indian who started the tried to equate the India-Pakistan equation with the US-Cuba equation. If you are interested in reality, shouldnt you take note of the the US vs Indian per capita incomes first?
Check that first, then come talk to me. Also, keep in mind what I wrote at the end of that post. So, make sure when responding that you dont give me an opportunity to show you to be yet another example of a duffer from India with a chip on his shoulder. ]
tahmed,
You're an old and wily Chowk campaigner, and as slippery as they come. But you're not going to be able to slip out of THIS one.
The India/Pakistan vs. USA/Cuba comparison is one thing. And we WILL talk about that. But ONLY AFTER you finish a point that YOU MADE EARLIER than my India/USA comparison.
Tell us, WHY is it that it is IMPERATIVE for India to "cooperate" with Pakistan?
What happens if we don't, and just maintain the status quo?
#602 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 14