Our National Mea Culpa

Feroz writes "I was seriously wondering what sort of a role model he was to his students."

Unlike you West Worshipping scum, University teachers like me show students their self-worth and give their lives meaning, so that after they are gone they remember the teacher with great fondness and respect....that has been my tradition both as student (where the professors remember me out of the thousands they have taught) over a decade after graduation and my students who write to say "Thank you". The day you approach even a small part of that, we can talk about "role model"

Feroz writes "Read the read article carefully. I had suggested that governments are not created to bring happiness to the people, but to rule over them"

You're a liar anyone can read your article and it clearly says (quote)"The American Declaration of Independence, perhaps the most enlightened of all enlightened political documents, claimed that governments are created to bring happiness to their people and though it may be a laudatory aim.. "(end quote)

I didn't put any words in your mouth you damn liar, i merely stated what you write above, and how idiotic that reading of the preamble is, because it means something very different, you have an infantile intellect...

re: hamidm2

I was seriously wondering what sort of a role model he was to his students.

Preston University???

What is that? Never heard of it...one of those money making frauds passing themselves of as institutions of higher learning?

Ciao

Re: # 35

ferozk,

... and what makes you think that masadi has any 'students'? ..... the poor souls hold up in the basement of faisal mosque and jamia fareedia are anything but that ........ also the other place where masadi 'teaches', preston university, is not a real college either .....

re: Masadi

Read the read article carefully. I had suggested that governments are not created to bring happiness to the people, but to rule over them. As to the American Declaration of Independence, the saying "life, liberty and happiness" was more of an evocation and does not necessarily represent the realist interests of the United States' government. There is marked difference in what the governments say and in their actions and governments and their intentions cannot be solely judged on the basis of their political rhetoric.

Masadi, do not misquote me and do not put words in my mouth. I have been very patient with your slanders and libel against me. I am not sure, who gave you the power to judge me, but since you have; I have to wonder what sort of example are you setting for your own students by your actions and deeds?

Ciao

re: Masadi

Read the lines very carefully. I had said that despite what American Declaration of Independence had said, governments are not created to bring life, liberty and happiness to their people.

The sentence on life, liberty and happiness in the Declaration of Independence, was more of an evocation and did not, and does not, necessarily reflect the realist interests of the United States' government. In a similar sense, the Magna Carta of 1215 was not about democracy or representative bodies or human/political rights as much as it was about the right of English nobility to tax their subjects without interference from the king.

There is difference between what the governments say and what their actions are inspite of their rhethoric.

Do not misquote me; insult me by all means but do not put words in my mouth.

Ciao

Feroz writes "I have never been offended by Masadi's comments, because generally speaking, I have never been offended by ignorance"

The person who concluded (like the miserable FcuK that according to the US declaration of Independence, governments are set up to bring life liberty and happiness to people certainly ranks as the most illiterate of folks here. He reads a sentence and cannot comprehend it, just after reading that naive comprehension of something very simple can we ignore not only his claims about the ignorance of others but also his ability to understand even the most basic of things. Similarly his claim of no democracy in Pakistan that ignores the vested interests that have perverted the system while balming it on the formal setup are not only BS but show his infantile thought process. If I were Manto, I'd threaten to get him fired from the institution where he ruins the education experience of our youth but I am not Manto, so I hope that when the conscious people of Pakistan overthrow the MAJ inspired BS system of injustice and proclaim people power, they will take care of scum like FcuK themselves......

Re: # 30

okay... now explain the reference to ice cream ........

Re: # 29
hamid

anyway hamid welcome back...i missed you.

Re: # 29
hamid meerasi

((((??? it has been a long time, so would you please explain your references to ice cream and plagiarism))))

chooray...it hasnt been that long.have you forgotten homi bhabha?????

Re: # 28

falsafee,

??? it has been a long time, so would you please explain your references to ice cream and plagiarism ......

..... i am encouraged by your enraged response - hopefully, one day, i will succeed in driving you and masadi to jump off a bridge holding hands

Re: # 27

hamid meerasi

(((( everytime i visit pakstan i am struck by the innocent ignorance of the common man ))))

Bhaandastic chooray.....unfortunatly the ''ignorant pakistani common man'' does not have that uncanny knack of plagiarizing and ability to show'bhandasitic' talent of producing 'ice cream'.Unlike you they don't have the luxury of dealing with educated 'ice cream' customers.

Re: # 26

ferozk,

.... as mohar has correctly pointed out i really don't have any other place to go ! ...... and to be truthful, if it weren't for folks like masadi the chowk would be a rather dull place ....

....... my idle threat to quit the chowk was simply designed to add to masadi's paranoia and drive him to commit suicide ........

....... as for the collective mea culpa thing, i think ordinary folks like gul zaman are not guilty ...... it is the elite - which includes you, me, masadi and the mad mullahs riding around islamabad in their land cruisers - who are responsible for the sory state of affairs .... everytime i visit pakstan i am struck by the innocent ignorance of the common man and it scares the daylights out of me ....... if i believed in god i would not venture out in a thunderstorm for fear of being struck by a bolt of divine retribution ..........

Re: hamidm2

Hamid, please do not peg your Chowk presence to Masadi. As Shandana said, just ignore Masadi and his rants. Masadi's comments are more hyperbole than they are serious interacts. Masadi by personalizing and slandering interacts and interactors, on Chowk, is only showing his own lack of intellectual class.

Masadi said in one of his interacts that I wrote 50 pages of nothing. It would be true had I written 50 pages of nothing, but I did not; I wrote 7 pages of nothing! ;)

For the record, I have never been offended by Masadi's comments, because generally speaking, I have never been offended by ignorance.

Please consider what Shandana has said and keep interacting.

Ciao

The UGLY USA!

Protected by two oceans..yet managed to have a two wars within a span of 200 years. Proud to have had a "CIVIL" war.
What a great bunch of civilised ( bad word , darwinian word..not tehzeeb yaafta , but CIVILISED) babbons.

Slave labour....sweat & blood still running through the system..yet to be expiated & the nation taken back by those from superior cultures.

Virgin Soil & enormous cattle-herds available for the taking
& plunder.

Extermination of local populace...by deliberating introducing & using germs, diseases, and mass-killings as sport.

Creating hotspots in the world so as to harvest the best brains & their capital ...and yet appear as if doing them a great favour.

Stealing& robbing other people's inventions & discoveries & claiming their right for exclusive use.

___________________________________________________________

Janaab Masadi sahib!

It turns out that you have been unequivocally effective in rubbing the noses of the US & its lackeys on CHOWK. Mr. Ahmed Madani is , perhaps, the most learned & non-westoxicated inter-actor on CHOWK..& wonder of wonders he is not an intellectual & educated [ meaning anglo-washed], and if he gives anyone his blessings CHWKIES pay attention.

And please do make sure the the only two ghulamtaas of United-Satans, the paragons of servitude & Lackeydom on CHOWK, do see the wisdom to wag their tails & drool their snouts elsewhere.

Thank you indeed...May Allah shower his blessings upon you even more & May Allah condemn & make further mardoods of Islam-haters.
============================================================
AND Now it is fun time.

Does it not prove that it was two wars which made them dstroy half the world , yet still remain unacthed itself. Maybe next time such luxury & smugness wqill not be accorded to this nation of gangsters ( politel but wisely called by Mr. Masadi as the "elite"

Here are some of the U.S. Statistics for the Year 1907:
************************************
Only 144 miles of paved roads.

The maximum speed limit in most cities was 10 mph.

More than 95 percent of all births in the U.S. Took place at HOME.

Ninety percent of all U.S. Doctors had NO COLLEGE EDUCATION!
Instead, they attended so-called medical schools, many of which
Were condemned in the press AND the government as "substandard."


Most women only washed their hair once a month, and used Borax or egg yolks for shampoo.

Canada passed a law that prohibited poor people from Entering into their country for any reason.

Five leading causes of death in the U.S. Were:
1. Pneumonia and influenza
2. Tuberculosis
3. Diarrhea
4. Heart disease
5. Stroke

Two out of every 10 U.S. Adults couldn't read or write.

Only 6 percent of all Americans had graduated from high school.

Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available over The counter at the local corner drugstores. Back then pharmacists
Said, "Heroin clears the complexion, gives buoyancy to the mind, Regulates the stomach and bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian Of health."

hamidm

Yeah - as if you relly have any other place to go...

hamid,

Please do stay, yours is the only post I read from start to finish, of course that is a haram for indian to do.

Re: # 21

thank you for your support - you have persuaded me to stay even though it is a great personal sacrifice :)

hamidm,

i never thought i'd see the day when you let someone get under your skin :) how about a little perspective? if he's annoying you, ignore him, dont read his interacts, please dont make the rest of us suffer your absence, i think i speak for many when i say you or him is a no brainer. you...any day.

hamid writes "........ if he continues to torment us with his painful presence, i am afraid i will have to resign permanently from chowk ...... it is either him or me - take your pick"

Good riddance a-hole, bye bye. By the way it is very easy to claim a protest after the event, let us see you keep yourself away from this site for two months protest starting today.

chowk staff,

i left the chowk for almost two months to protest masadi's presence on this illustrious forum which has attracted many a fool with delusions of grandeur and a few psychopaths, but none as annoying as this man ........ however, i see that you have still not banned him as i had requested ....

........ if he continues to torment us with his painful presence, i am afraid i will have to resign permanently from chowk ...... it is either him or me - take your pick

thank you for your kind consideration

Hamid writes "...... the putrid stench rising from the poultry shops in aabpara and the corpses in the lal masjid is of our own making ....... stop blaming the american elite for your bad personal hygiene - take a shower ......... "

No it is not of our own making, when you have a social structure that is bursting at the seems, making do with survival, where a ghetto economy exists, pouring money into it will not fix anything, band aids do not stop vein bleeds, it needs major restructuring and surgery that will take away the privilage that the few maintain at the expense of the many. Health care, education, proper nutrition, shelter and not the dirty money pouring in as bribes from the US elite is what this country needs. You look at the surface and not at the context, or like Manto you invent a context in the revisionist style where Jinnah becomes a saint and not a mass murderer of people and a lackey of the british...

masadi,

..... urinating on the side of the road, piling up garbage in front of your shop, spitting on the floor and stinking up the place with body odor has nothing to do with the denial of 'infrastructure' by the american elite ......... islamabad is supposed to be a showcase city and the cda has more money than it can spend, but take a walk down to the end of any street in f/10 lined with million dollar homes and you will encounter the same filth that you see in karachi company or g/9 market ........ just look at the dilapidated state of the plazas in the blue area or any sector markaz - some of them, like kulsoom plaza, are owned by people with a net worth of hundr4eds of millions of dollars, but they refuse to shell out the money for a few gallons of paint ........

...... the putrid stench rising from the poultry shops in aabpara and the corpses in the lal masjid is of our own making ....... stop blaming the american elite for your bad personal hygiene - take a shower .........

In #15 read "structural adjustment that calls for less "austerity" "

as "structural adjustment that calls for less spending and more "austerity"

hamid writes "....... and just as the american elite is not responsible for the filthy state of pakistan's bazars and streets..."

Man, I thought this site was rid of you, and here you raise your dirty head with a filthy mind again...Of course the US elite are responsible, when someone tries to spend on social welfare, they term him a communist, inspire a coup and make examples, their institutions the World Bank gets all worked up if their structural adjustment that calls for less "austerity" that is taken care of by neglecting infrastructure that is of no "profit" concern to the multinationals, of course they are responsible for the condition of Pakistan's infrastructure as well as the poverty of its people, just like they are responsible for the condition of the ghettos within the US itself. WE live in a world system that is extremely concentrated and where your position within it is maintained by the dominant country and that position entails what your bazaars will look like. And the a-hole Feroz was blaming the Pakistani people, the voiceless and powerless masses unless he thinks that the Mullah is personification of the average Pakistani, which he is not, and the major cause of militancy is the US meddling in our affairs and its adventures in neighbouring countries, that moreso than any village mullah that has existed for a long long time without such militancy and suicide bombings is the real cause. But illiterates like Feroz, who think that throwing out a western name is all that counts as "knowledge", wouldn't know...

Re: # 1 i READ IT. IT is good but why they not publish it ?
Too many criteria or what. Same way Mr. Masadi is prevented from publishing. It is not free medium as they claim is my feeling.

mad masadi,

......... i don't think ferozk is blaming people like poor gul zaman - it is the village mullah, the tribal malik and the american trained sociologist who is responsible for the prevailing militancy ....... and just as the american elite is not responsible for the filthy state of pakistan's bazars and streets, it has nothing to do with the lunacy of its politics ...... people like you are the real culprits ..... so pick up that banana peel and take a shower ........

Kaal writes "But gul zaman lacks the means to protest much or loudly when he is blamed. "

Yes that is why a-holes like the author of this article are making a living out of blaming the voiceless and the powerless as they legitimize the rule of the few over the many, sanitizing it by saying that this western guy said this and that western guy did that and Pakistan need to mold itself on their definitions. People like him should be excommunicated from this land, they are the disease that is slowly killing this nation, hatred from their mouths for the oppressed of the world is quite clear, they will keep blaming the poor while singing praises of the "equity" of the worst barbarians the world has seen, i.e. the US elite, they will blame the Iraqis for the carnage in Iraq, the Palestinians for Israeli occupation, the Hizbullah for Israel's destruction of Lebanon last summer, and the Pakistanis for the transgressions of the Pakistani Army....like I said these people are soulless bast****, that the people of Pakistan themselves will take care of soon enough....

"The American Declaration of Independence, perhaps the most enlightened of all enlightened political documents, claimed that governments are created to bring happiness to their people..."

Learn to read and comprehend before you start your unconditional worship of the US and all things Western. When the US declaration of independance states about pursuit of happiness does not not mean that it implies that it is the government's responsibility to bring happiness to the people. It states quite clearly that pursuit of happiness is a natural freedom, endowed by the creator and in order to protect that freedom from being usurped by some (i.e. revolutionary social justice seekers when they try to check the happiness of the rich), will the government step in. That is completely different to the government being set up to ensure the happiness of the people.

You don't understand sh** about either the world system that you are accusing Pakistan of defaulting from neither of the significance and causes of events in Pakistan. The World System is not based on some sort of feel-good political contract, it is based on economic rape and political and military domination of the authoritarian sort.

Next, the people of Pakistan are not to blame, the first blame lies on the objects of your worship those who colonized us before, left us with sick and dying and dependant institutions, next it lies with the US elite who capitalized on that to make this nation its slave through its occupation force, the Pak Army. The blame also lies of sick perverts like you who worship and legitimize the source of our suffering, by their desire to take us back to the same old sh** that we got away from, i.e. colonization to all things Western. A quote here and a quote there, surrounded by nonsensical BS made complex by use of words does nothing to either prove your case or show that you are smart....It took this rat 50 pages to say absolutely nothing! What a waste of good space

But gul zaman lacks the means to protest much or loudly when he is blamed.

mea culpa is not his cup of tea .........

..... gul zaman, the cook from kohat who sleeps on the veranda and gets up early in the morning to make me a cup of tea as i wait for the newspaper guy to deliver dawn and the news, denies any responsibility for the current state of affairs in pakistan ........ he has much bigger problems than worrying about who gets elected by which assembly or who wears what while getting elected ........

.....last night he got wet because the rain came down real hard and the wind happened to be blowing in the wrong direction ..... a couple of days ago, the rain short circuited the pedestal fan he had been using and he has been sweltering in the oppressive humidity which grips islamabad this year ........

..........the other day, as i sat on his veranda sipping my second cup of tea and reading the editorials, i asked him whether he would vote for musharraf and he said no ......... "why?", i asked .......... "the mullah in my village says that musharraf is an evil man and has declared jihad against him; and last friday the mullah in the islamabad mosque was asking people to control their women and fight the infidel general who is spreading sin and vulgarity" ......... "so who are you going to vote for then ?".......... "maulana fazlur rehman of course - we are khattak and we have always voted for him and his father before him ...... we are not like the bangash and the orakzais who have no deen or iman and will vote for anyone" .....

......inspite of his solid convictions he seemed to lack enthusiasm ........ it is hard to be enthusiastic about politics when your bedding is wet, your daughter is maimed by polio, and your son is mentally retarded ..... it is even harder when you make less than four thousand a month and meat is 250 a kilo - a proud khattak whose family is reduced to eating dal and potatoes doesn't rally care who gets elected, with or without uniform ........

....... leave poor gul zaman alone ......... his job is to get me a cup of tea and he does it very well ...... no mea culpa for him

Feroz,

The case of pakistan need to be situated in the context of no democracy in any islamic countries. The case of malaysia is that it has a sizeable non muslim population, so is the case with indonesia.

Without touching up on the role of religion in the political discourse, your lengthy article lacks the crucial element of the pak society.

Further my understanding is that all that the lal majid guys were doing was to enforce the sharia law, the law of the land in pakistan, a curious situation where the sharia law co-exists with other civil laws and it is up to the police to decide which law to enforce. Lal majid is nothing as far as pak social discourse is concerned, not very different from the killings in Karachi when the chief justice went their, another routine round of killings, this time in Ialmabad.

Khan Sahib,

Don't get me wrong about the length part

as one can always learn something from your articles

if interested in the subject.

Your analysis here makes a lot of sense.

From my now distant point of view, any change

in direction on militancy and intolerance

can only help in Pakistan.

As we have discussed before, it would be tragic if

religion, which was one of the main forces leading

to the birth of the country, proved to be a fatal

blow to its continuity...

re: Ras

Please omit the typo "sahi" and replace it with "sahib".

Sorry for the typo.

Ciao

Re: GT # 2

Chowk readership, generally speaking, will avoid this article not only because of its lenght, but also because it does not deal in any conspiracy theory analysis and neither does it offer a blame analysis on the situation. The article merely makes two points, which the average Pakistani might find a bit difficult to agree.

One; demcoracy requires an active, involved and aware participation by the people and democracy and public accountibility in a democracy is not limited to and does not end with elections. Democracy in Pakistan is still limited to elections and beyond that, Pakistani public is not interested in politics as long as their zones of special status quos are not infringed upon.

Two; Lal Masjid was the culmination of the last 20 years of Pakistani politics, encourged and supported by the people of Pakistan. Militancy, in Pakistan, has to be seen in the context of its environment and had cultural/religious/political environment not existed, militancy might not have taken roots in Pakistan. Pakistani public actively encourged the growth of militancy in Pakistan by not being involved in the process, whereby the governments were given a carte blanche to adopt certain policies.

The mea cupla of the nation is that militancy in Pakistan would not have been possible without its indirect and direct appeasement and support of the militancy.

As to the European terms and references, those were to show that we still live in a world dominated by European structures of international law. These structures are, however, changing as the international system moves from the concept of nation-states into paradigms and metrics of transnationalism influenced not by politics, but by economics.

Ciao

Re: Ras # 3

Nice to hear from you Ras sahi! The lenght of my articles is an old cliche on Chowk, but it was nice to know that you enjoyed the article.

My crystal ball simply paints a picture of 2007 as being as very bad year for Pakistan, but I do think that after 2007, this nation and its people will see marked improvement. There is a growing awareness in Pakistan, amongst the people, that did not exist five to ten years ago.

Ciao

Khan Sahib,

This is a bit long.

Please look at the future.

Well written article though.

What is your crystal ball showing you?

Ras

Dear Mr. Khan,

I was wondering as to why this important write-up is being ignored by the interactors. It seems that there are a few reasons for this. First, the number of people who have viewed this article is 'small' in terms of chowk. Second, it may be that of the 300 odd viewers, many may have found it a bit nerdy. Third, and as far as I am concerned, I found the constant references to Western definitions in the quest of defining a state and its responsibilities a bit jarring inspite of being aware that the state and its role has been largely defined and studied by western scholars. Nevertheless, given a scholar like you, it would have been nice to know a bit more about your own perspective.

IMHO, for most in our sub-continent, the State matters to an individual only in when it comes to petitioning it for the redress of personal problems often perpetuated by the state itself. This nature has changed very little from the time of monarchies, tribalistic panchayats, British rule etc. No matter how the powers behind our states in south-asia tend to define the state the fact of the matter is they are largely despotic and draw on support from tribalistic polities. When once the rajas awed the prajas with ritualistic processions and ruthless slaughter today it is done through glittering buildings, gdp figures and carnages like the one in Lal Masjid.

But on the whole I really liked this article.

Hi,

At the height of Chief Justice crisis, I submitted an article to chowk captioned

Gang-rape of Pakistan

Chowk editors have apparently opted not to publish it.

For my fellow chowkies and for the sake of posterity (ta ke sanad rahe that I too did raise my voice) I am posting a blog link to it. It is a letter that sent to all corps commanders of Pak army.

http://gangrapeofpakistan.blogspot.com/

Sorry, very sorry, that comments are not very article specific.

Regards

MMI