What about Bombay 1992?

Pardesi #88 {"This has happened in Pakistan 71 and India 1984, 1992-93 and later in 2002. It does not matter whether the majority butchers are Hindu or Muslim leaders. Immunity from prosecution, hunger for power and unlimited greed drives these bastards. None of these killers were punished - Prime Minister (1984) and Chief Minister (2002) and President (1971)."}

Pardesi Sahib,
Wah Wah. :)
Only when we can recognize, identify, and unconditionally blame mass killings regardless of the identities of the perpetrators or the victims, can we hope to put an end to this vicious, grotesque, and inexcusable curse. Thanks for not being selective like so many others - e.g. "They started it first." or "It was their fault." or "They deserved it."

Ajeya: Well, it has been referred to as the Dec 1992 riots but technically, it was Dec 1992 riots - interval - Jan 1993 riots.

#100 Posted by stuka:

"...what the fukk are we supposed to do ..."

Strengthen democratic institutions which check our barbarism if not through economic incentives then through the fear of more barbaric retaliation.

Try to understand the Mayawati phenomenon in UP; the rise of Badruddin Ajmal and his Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF); the struggle within the Chattisgarh tribals in their support of or opposition to the Maoists. And there may be others. Unlike the European Utopians, which tahmed refers to, these movements are leading to the emergence of desi practical democratic institutions.

#99 Posted by stuka

[That is true nly for the December riots.The December riots started with Muslims rioting in their areas coz Babri Masjid was brought down.]

Somebody correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that this article is about the December riots.

[The massive retaliation was very much a mercantile Shiv Sena funded and executed operation. ]

Anybody participating in riots, REGARDLESS of who started it, is by definition a criminal, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But it is a fact that if Muslims incite violence in India, they are going to get burnt the MOST, because they are lesser in number.

Muslims would be well-advised to not burn down trains filled with people trapped inside, or start killing Hindus in protest against some cause, because then they will be adversely affected MUCH MORE than Hindus.

That's simply how it is. If you don't want to get hit with a brick, don't throw the first stone.

and just to add to #98: going further back from 17th century America to 2500 BC China, Confucius and his disciples (Mencius notably) also wrestled with the same issue of good government, saying a good government received its "mandate from heaven".

So, the good fight goes on...year after year, century after century. Across the world, from China to America. Progress seems slow, barely noticable, with a few steps back once in a while - but by historical standards progress towards good government is being made at galloping speed today.

"While Hindus and Muslims are jumping up and down like monkeys asking for justice vis a vis 1992 riots they have forgotten the Nellie massacre, 1984 (except kabuli), Bhagalpur, Meerut etc. etc"

I take exception to your statement. Plenty of people remember 1984. But what the fukk are we supposed to do when a Sikh PM comes and says we should forget about it? What are we supposed to do when the just human being who killed a criminal like Lalit Maken asks for forgiveness for his just deed from Lalt Maken's daughter? As far as 1984 is concerned, the perps were India's royal family - The Gandhis. There is no hope of justice and so it is better to forget.

WRT to Nellie, the only other massacre of some magnitude (Bhagalpul, Meerut etc are mere blips) it was mainly Bengali speaking Muslims who were the victim. The very same Bengali Muslims who were the initial advocates for the partition of India, the same Bengali Muslims who were responsible for ethnic cleansing of tribals from the Chitagong hill tracts and Hindus from erstwhile East Pakistan. Somehow, I just don't feel any moral outrage when the victims are Bangladeshi Muslims. So, sue me.

Ajeya:

Did you know that the Bombay Riots STARTED with Muslims killing Hindus in Bombay AFTER the Babri masjid was taken down? Hindus did not kill Muslims at Babri Masjid, by the way.

That is true nly for the December riots.The December riots started with Muslims rioting in their areas coz Babri Masjid was brought down. There was retaliation against the Muslims by Shiv Sena as well as police and things calmed down.

There was a fortnight of peace but increasing rhetoric. There was the case of a shack being burned down with the family inside being killed - attributed to Muslims but turned out to be a property dispute and alson the case of the Marathi dock workers being killed which was again blamed on Muslims. The latter was maybe a Muslim phenomenon but no actual proof. The massive retaliation was very much a mercantile Shiv Sena funded and executed operation. Arjun's description of the riots as well as Sanjay Dutt's arse being actually saved by Shiv Sena is correct. The person who had been gunning for Sanjay Dutt was Pawar, Sunil Dutt's rival in Congress.

GT, Pardesi: The questions you raised were raised earlier as well. And what is more, a solution attempted by some of them. The solution is not fully implemented as yet by any means, but it did lead to a good deal of progress in the right direction.

Among the most prominent of these of course was William Penn, who moved from England to found an ideal society of Quakers (foresook war, and called for religious and political freedoms) in what came to be known as Pennsylvania back in the 17th century.

Back then, the church and state in europe would burn anabaptists and other by the hundreds of thousands on the stake, e.g. In the US, the Salem witch craze is the exception to what proves the rule - Americans left behind a lot of the primitive customs of the old world, and showed them the way forward.

And now, thanks to media as well no doubt to many Indian and Pakistani expats (excluding those who are doomed to spend their lives seeing the US as "hardware", i.e. buildings, appliances etc. and being blissfully unaware of the ideals and "software" that made this a great nation), these revolutionary ideas are spreading to the subcontinent as well: The government is not "raj bahadur" that you serve - the people are the "raj bahadur" whom the politicians serve.

Re: # 94
Gt
Some people in India give the example of northern Ireland in relation to Kashmir issue unfairly IMO.

Britain wants northern Ireland to join southern Ireland but majority northern irish (protestant) don’t want to, southern Ireland doesn’t want them either unless they join willingly, but I think eventually they will join southern Ireland.

GT#92:

No disagreement with your post.

Pardesi:

I wouldn't object to your proposal. I think human rights should be the number one priority of UN and an international police would be appropriate for that. The problem is would powerful members of the UN accept such a role for the UN, if its jurisdiction includes them. Remember how the US rejected the plan for an international criminal court?

i have a couple of memories of the 92 riot..although i had left mumbai for a while, i was visiting. once the curfew was lifted there was a sad line of migrant muslim families leaving town for safety. so i asked our local boys..wtf (we never had riots before anyways)? he said, yeah..they are all new to the neighborhood ..look at the new mosque..its fortified with 10-ft high walls.

i got a local politician to get me a ridfe to the airport thru curfew and reached there rather early with some ariline crew. there was no ice at the airport bar. one gora was complaining..so the barkeep said "sala murdey rakhne ke lite barf kam pad rahe hain aur isko whisky mein barf chahiye". so i stuck to beer.

i agree that justice is not to be begged, but demanded.

Let us for the time forget (for the duration that this article is on FP, otherwise I do not even have to ask) the massacres in riots etc. But what about Kashmir? Why are we so placid about the Indian state terrorizing Indian citizens in Kashmir? Why are we swallowing lock-stock and barrell what is being fed to us? Here is a question worth asking by people who know of the writings of Praveen Swamy? Is he in the payroll of the IB? Why does he not pay attention to what the communist parties are doing in Kashmir (he is very left wing otherwise)? Why does he mostly hang around with the police? Why is it that we do not even ask?

DM #91

We are on different page.

Ireland central or regional top official did not butcher its own citizens in thousands. True? You are probably talking about protestant/Irish clashes in northern ireland. In fact British and Irish Prime ministers worked together to solve the issue.

Bosnia - killings - yes, and that's why EU and USA intervened and the criminals are gone. Are you suggesting that UN should have intervened in 1984 or 2002 or 1971. Come to think of it, international forces is not a bad idea to civilize people if the westerns truly value desi lives.

Germany - I am aware of that. That's why I said "in modern times".

What gets me is that we were raised with this stupid notion that we are from this 5000 year old super duper peaceful and non-violent culture (and in case of Pakistan - we are a religion of peace and bengalis are our own brothers - total BS sold worldwide). And here we are killing tens of thousands of folks and there is no collective guilt and if there is one our people are so coward that none will speak or raise voice for justice or action against the criminals at the top. This is true for Pakistan as well as India.

Dearest DM,

Of course you are right. Also, I am not stupid. Let me lay it out.

Consider the mid-day meal program. Allocation for it is going up at a rate greater than that of revenues. Very good you say. But not really. MLAs in Orissa, Assam and Chattisgarh (I am aware of these and there may be more) have been complaining in the legislature that they do not need more money for this program. Why? because most schools do not have cooks and have at most 2-3 teachers. So the teachers spend their time cooking! This is known to policy makers. So why don't they allocate some of the money to the police force or health or infrastructure (on which I have written before in chowk) or for that matter cooks?

Pardesi:
I wouldn't be too hastey in granting certificates to the white people either. Germany was the most civilised European country at the time of WW2. More recently, there have been the examples of Bosnia and Ireland. And it took only one murder of Van Gogh to remove the veneer of tolerance in that most liberal of European countries, Netherlands.

when thousands of sikhs are killed in delhi and other cities and then muslims in bombay surat and later in Gujrat, the country's justice system becomes a silent spectator.

When dalits and tribals are burnt alive and their women are raped and paraded naked, even the cases are not registered in police stations!!

What a democracy!!

Maoists and Naxals don't come from outside...this system forces helpless people to take up arms!!