The 'poor' Neighbour

Re: # 274
"However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own..."

Isn't 60 years enough time to come to grips with reality...Or is some more time needed for that?

"Indian roads are safer"

It is merely a perception. In threat perception levels Pakistan might be much higher.. but in threat reality... Pakistan and India are about the same.

nandan ...

No one denies that the Indian society driven by its Hindu Majority is infinitely more politically and socially evolved than Muslims ... who lagged behind in modern education during the colonial period.

However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own...

As for women being out in the open... true that Pakistani women don't drive scooters... but often enough I stop at a light and every other driver in every other car is a woman..
so I am not sure how much of a difference there is vis a vis openness of women. Pakistani women have come out in large numbers.

Visiting Pakistan will undoubtedly smash some of the stereotypes Indians have about Pakistan.

manto my friend,
have you ever come to india...sure your roads,airports etc are better but Indian roads are much safer. I remember an delegation of women from pakistan had come to india, they were suprised to see so many women out in open...women working...riding scooters...without getting harrased or haggled...whats the use of better roads or better infrastructure without freedom
regards
Nandan

Re: # 271
haaha....logical religion indeed....for osama and his killers
the 9/11 is perfectly logical and so are hudood, hijab,sharia....
and the whole world is sick of it.
Maybe if you cleanse you brainwashed head and read a bit of history ..there is hope for you

Re: # 270hahaha
well it seems tht u live in utopia well whtever u said was just opposite...
read any of the history related bk it has written tht majority of hindus were converted in to MUSLIMS by their own will bcoz ISLAM is a logical religion dis is the reality which has accepted by whole world today so u better read some gud stuff to increase ur poor knowledge its gud 4 u.

jeech ,
grow up..I mean I am tired of hearing pakis how the muslims ruled over India...and I am tired of responding that most muslims of pakistan are converted hindus..so what applies to hindus applies to the majority pakis even you.
As for muslims ...especially the arabs are busy licking american a**.
come on move on from the age old rhetoric...

re: jeech # 268

jeech, before some people take offense, let me say I do, in an odd way, agree with your second para. There is an important Hindu-Muslim difference in this matter, and sometime we might discuss it. Best.

William apparently sounds correct... but there is not much difference happening right now in India, India contribute a huge ratio of poverty in the world... what if some westerners show Indians a dream.

Hindus, as the matter of fact, have been worshiping the rising suns. A few hundred years ago they had been bowing against Muslims and now against the westerners... A dream of supremacy is like a half penny from the west.
(No offence)

Re: # 266
Ha haThis must be the master race’s version of paki-bashing. I wonder what they were shouting when they attacked, hail fuehrer.

er...say...arjun/jayp/chennai...I guess they dont know how great Indians are in germany...or maybe the germans were confused and thought they were paki cab drivers, not indian IT billionaires....ha! ha!

Mob of 50 attacks Indians in east German town DRESDEN, Germany, Aug 20 (Reuters) A mob shouting racial insults attacked eight Indians at a town fair in east Germany, then chased them and besieged them inside a pizzeria until they were rescued by police, officials said Monday. Around 70 police were required to disperse the mob of 50 people, which gathered after revellers shouted abuse and threw bottles at the Indians during the town fair in Muegeln, east of Leipzig, Saturday night, police said. All of the Indians were injured, he said. (Posted @ 21:00 PST)

HAHA..pakis ki phut gayi...can't match india's growth rate..and inflation is through the roof..

No choice but to match India growth

Nadeem Syed, Javed Mehmood, Monem Farooqi & Naqi Akbar
LAHORE - Pakistan cannot afford to lag behind India in growth rate for the sake of maintaining peace and parity in the region. As such Pakistan needs to keep a robust growth rate of 7 to 9 pert cent especially with respect to India. It is also imperative for the country’s integrity in the long run.
Dr Salman Shah, the advisor to the Prime Minister for Economic Affairs was talking to The Nation panel here Monday. He talked at length about the economic outlook as well as the positioning of the Pakistani economy especially with respect to capital market growth, foreign direct investment as well as the level of reforms undertaken by the current political dispensation. To substantiate the contention that the Musharraf government has been ahead of the previous governments in correcting the economic fundamentals he made a detailed presentation taking stock of the growth rates, fiscal deficits containment, external debt as well as the growth of the middle income group during the period between 1999 to 2005.
Elaborating the India-Pakistan growth imperative, he argued that with Pakistan keeping as much of growth rate as of India, Pakistan was ensuring peace in the region remain intact. He said that Pakistan following a high growth rate would ensure not only peace but also its strategic security.

Heh He....

Mushy, having pocketed 5 Billion US$ is in ape shit...and clueless like his country..

Musharraf in serious trouble, says South Asia expert
Monday 20th August, 2007
(ANI)
Washington, Aug 20 : Noted South Asia expert Teresita C Schaffer feels that Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf, who has been the centrepiece of US policymaking in the region, is in "serious trouble" ahead of the elections in the country.

According to Schaffer, of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Musharraf is facing an awakened political opposition in Pakistan, though not a united one.

Schaffer said in a recent interview to the Council on Foreign Relations that the trouble for Musharraf lies in the fact that many people think it is in some sense democratically inappropriate for the President to get himself elected by assemblies that are about to be abolished.

That is going to be a focus for political protest, Schaffer said, adding that the more complicated issue, however, is that Musharraf wants to run as a general and head of the army.

She said that Musharraf's second source of trouble is related to domestic extremism, following the Lal Masjid episode.

The Daily Times quoted Schaffer as saying that the problem started with Musharraf's decision to send in the army to the Lal Masjid in Islamabad. The aftermath of that decision has been a string of violence that is unmatched in the Capital, as well as in the areas near the Afghan border, and also far away from that.

She said the violence in Pakistan since the Lal Masjid operation may lead to rethinking among army leaders on the value of maintaining extremists in the country as a political force.

"We need to watch and see if they have really decided they need to put these people out of business. If they have, that would be an important policy turn for the United States. To be fair, it's a high-risk policy, but there are no risk-free policies in today's Pakistan," she said.

However, she added that Musharraf's basic approach to the extremists, both the domestic ones and those on the Afghan circuit, has been to hedge-- try to keep them under control, but not to put them out of business.

The third problem the General faces, according to her, is the traditional feud with India. Schaffer said that Kashmir is the "poster child" for this dispute, but by no means the only part of it.

At the moment, India and Pakistan have a going. It's not clear that this dialogue is going to accomplish anything much in the near term, but at least it represents a decision by both governments that they would rather talk than squabble, she said.

I can see some genuine conscious effort by educated muslims, and not merely taqquiya, to say that they are not "like that".
A conscious effort not to be clubbed with mians and mullahs who claim to represent Islam and hence Pakistan.

But , I do not think it is loud enough.

As Indians say - "we have to see the ground realities".

true, the ground realities stem from Pakistani constitution.

Islam is still entrenched in it. And until remanents of political Islam are not BANISHED from Pakistani constitution, I cannot see any hope of Pakistan not going the Afghanistan way in the coming years to come.

Igbnoring the reality is the pak trade mark, and no infrastructure can solve that. See the statistics below for Karachi alone, fram jang of today. Note that 18 bodies were discovered, these are the ones who died and no one would dare to make a police complaint, they are the jihadic killings, cleared by the Ehdi society and given a burial , and no one wants to know about them.


118 persons lost their lives last week
Kamran Mansoor

Karachi

At least 118 persons lost their lives during the last week, of whom 14 people were shot dead, 18 murdered, two committed suicide, eight of them were burnt to death, 15 drowned, 18 bodies were recovered, while 43 were killed in accidents including 21 in rains.

At least 1,309 robberies were committed in the city, out of which 1,085 were mobile phones snatching or stolen cases, 28 cars and 65 motorcycles snatching cases.

People were robbed of valuables in 130 other incidents of robberies. A total of 309 cases of thefts were reported during the last week, in which 63 cars, 172 motorcycles were taken away from different parts of the city.

/////////////////////////

No tahmed, no YLH would want to comment on the above statistics, 118 people killed, and you can see that same numbers are routinely killed in karachi every week,. See Jang for other details. Infrastructure in a barbarian society can only facilitate barbaric acts.

State of Anxiety

By Michael Hirsh And Ron Moreau
Newsweek

Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue - Pervez Musharraf has always been a dubious ally in George W. Bush's War on Terror—the kind of guy you avert your eyes from while patting him on the back. It's not that Bush doubts the Pakistani leader's sincerity—"He shares the same concern about radicals and extremists as I do and as the American people do," the president said at an Aug. 9 news conference—it's just that Musharraf is never going to make it into Bush's democracy club. And Musharraf's ability to stop his nation's Islamist radicalism from spilling over into terrorism has always been limited. A genial autocrat who seized power in a 1999 coup and has refused to relinquish his general's uniform, Musharraf has succeeded in keeping Washington on his side by regularly handing over second-tier Qaeda suspects and by keeping tenuous control over his increasingly Islamicized country. But now Musharraf may be losing his grip on power amid rising concerns by senior U.S. officials that a new safe haven for Al Qaeda has emerged in Pakistan's rocky, ungoverned tribal regions, especially Waziristan.


As a result, an increasing number of voices in Washington—from Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama to hard-line officials in the Bush administration—are calling for unilateral military action inside Pakistan. NEWSWEEK has learned that for weeks Pentagon officials have been debating the current policy of not violating Pakistani sovereignty, coming down in favor of restraint. But some officers in Joint Special Operations Command are "pawing the ground to go into Waziristan," says one Pentagon consultant who is privy to the debate but would speak about classified discussions only anonymously. Congress, meanwhile, has passed legislation that threatens to cut off aid to Pakistan if President Bush can't certify that Musharraf is doing all he can. "It's very humiliating for Musharraf," says retired Pakistani Lt. Gen. Talat Masood. "It could even destabilize him." That's one reason Bush continues to stand by him. Administration officials fear that if Musharraf falls and Pakistan descends into political chaos, then a nuclear-armed state could fail and Pakistan's nuclear know-how might end up in the wrong hands.

Even short of that doomsday scenario, senior U.S. officials, both active and retired, say that without more decisive action Al Qaeda will grow, if not flourish, in the tribal areas. And someday the U.S. homeland will likely be attacked from there, they say, just as Al Qaeda once used Afghanistan as a base from which to plot the 9/11 attacks. In late July a National Intelligence Estimate—a periodic assessment that is considered the most authoritative issued by the U.S. government—concluded Al Qaeda has "regenerated key elements" of its ability to attack the United States from the tribal regions of North Waziristan and Bajaur. Hank Crumpton, a near-legendary CIA clandestine service officer who retired last year as the State Department's counterterrorism coordinator, says Washington needs to do more than rely on the Pakistani military and intelligence services. "I'd go in there [tribal areas] with a hard-core counterinsurgency effort," Crumpton told NEWSWEEK. He would seek Pakistan's consent—"but I wouldn't pretend that this is sovereign territory. It is not."
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