The 'poor' Neighbour

Yasser:

It is all meaningless explanation to a person like me. I have no ex to grind. I saw all that I have mentioned here. Such study is something a person like me will not give a cent worth of credence, let alone read. I commented because you quoted. A person I respect. Honestly, I do not wish to get involved in discussiing it further, as I am not here to change your mind.

Thanks

Okhla writes "Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success..... "

Thank you, yes the peak of my career was attained earlier this month when the Federal Minister in charge of the committee for Govt Reforms said that my recommendations on how to improve higher education in this country will be sent to all Social Science departments in the country (not a city but the whole country you fool), with the seal of approval of his committee that has reviewed them thoroughly... And how did he receive my report, it was forwarded as recommendation from the Chairman HEC..

Now that is greater success than most educators, returned from US recently or otherwise can claim or muster and LULU has NOTHING to do with it.....

I did not revise anything. I have said that Pakistan Army's reaction after 25th March was excessive and brutal. However... Dr. Bose has actually questioned some of Mr. Mascerhenas' assertions. Calling it Bose & Co... will not undo the fact that it was a Harvard funded study led by an Indian scholar of some integrity who had no reason to change her findings to Pakistan Army's benefit. Neither will "googling" or the Beatles' Album take away from the credibility of such a study.

Coming as it did the Harvard funded study of Bangladesh war some 35 years after the event, I think Dr. Bose, given that she is not ISI's agent as far as I know, needs to be given a chance.

And what is her conclusion. It is definitely not that Pakistan Army was blameless... but that genocide happened ferociously on both sides. And as for what kind of person I am... allow me to say that I am no longer the kind of person who would accept outrageously impossible figures simply to win brownie points with Indians as a "liberal".

So forgive me for not accepting a casualty figure and a rape figure which basically means that every Pakistani soldier was raping two women and killing two men every five minutes continuously from March 25, 1971 to December 16, 1971....

Re: # 229

Yasser:

When you quote people like Dr. Bose you are trying to revise the black history of that unfortunate period. I know you are not that kind of person. I also know on this account your patriotism is best served to unconditionally denounce it, and not revising by quoting Dr. Bose & Co. Bose & Co. cannot be anything other than discredited bunch. There must be so much information on it that you probably can Google it yourself. After all, a Beatle George Harrison made an album too. You may dismiss all these facts, and stick to Dr. Bose & Co., the choice is yours no doubt.

I had the opportunity of being on the front and watch each night BBC news about this entire situation. BBC and ITN coverage was so vivid and complete, it was like watching the entire war from front and center row.

Among other numerous coverages, I read coverages in London Times, by a Pakistani journalist, Anthony Mascarhenas. He used to be the journalist for Dawn, if my memonry serves right, before leaving in disgust. There are vivid pictures of brutalities by armed Pakistanis.

Sevral sensible Paksitani students in those days were disgusted also. I also remember, a very aristocratic Bengali student couple was against this war. Even they would not sit with the Pakistani group, after the war was started. That break in the Pakistani group was so complete after the war started.

Thoroughly covered fact is that prior to Bangladesh war, Urdu speaking population of East Pakistan had arms, not Bengalis. I had seen them talking and showing off on BBC and ITN news in England in those days. Unarmed people cannot be as dangerous as armed, with backing of the Pakistani Army.

I still vividly remember the pictures and video of the ghastly and gruesome pictures of massacre of students of the university (I believe Dhaka Univ. or may be Chittagong).

No one who has seen this action, will give any credence to Dr. Bose & Co. No one.

For Zeemax:

Part of the surrender terms were that India will not handover Pakistani POWs to Mukti Bahini or Bangladesh, and will be responsible for their safety. And that no Pakistani officer will be prosecuted for war crimes, or crime against humanity - or whatever it was called in those days. Even though were news that appealed to India to hand them over to the U.N. for the war crime trials.

Interestingly, a senior Pakistani person, Mr. Siddiqui, suddenly appeared on the university campus. He claimed to be coming to the library to prepare for law exams. He would sit with the Indian students somedays, or with Pakistani students on other days for his tea. He would talk endlessly. We all figured it out that he was not whom he claimed, but probably was the person sent by Pakistan High Commission to keep an eye on and to give feedback from students at the campuses.

The raving lunatic Okhla is lying about everything (except chowk censoring my articles) in the below reproduced BS diatribe, in fact it is quite pathetic that idiots like him have to invent bs to discredit my quite well established, well argued posts....like Madani sahib said these bastar** are just jealous because they cannot approach my posts except by inventing lies. Btw nobody deported me from the US or fired me from any US university, I came back to Pakistan of my own volition, away from the land of cheerful morons like okhla, slaves yet happy in their enslavement....Now go eff off okhla.... and don't spam all boards you damn fool

Yes... your country has an air... hot air... nothing else. These journalists can go on trying to prop you up... but in the end we can all safely conclude that Indians will be Indians ... and there will no real progress along the lines the powers that be desperately want India to move.

Meanwhile Pakistan has better infrastructure, less poverty and more reliable electricity.

Makes sense why I live a comfortable life in my own country and you live a dog's even outside yours.

#230 Posted by zeemax on August 18, 2007 9:44:49 am


I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?


Because India doesn't give a shit...and the real criminals are the generals who ordered the killings and fled when india advanced..

besides, the indians threatened to hand the pakis over to the bengalis in case the captured pakis didn't do as instructed...chadddi utar gayi "tiger" ke soldiers ki...

#235 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 10:31:49 am


Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized


Criticized for butchering hundreds of thousands of people?

p.s. the bangladeshis, the victims in all this, put the figure at hundreds of thousands...

The Model That India Offers

By Jim Hoagland
Sunday, August 19, 2007; Page B07

India celebrated its 60th birthday last week with a raucous parliamentary debate over nuclear energy and its new strategic relationship with the United States. New Delhi had the air of the capital of an emerging world power looking ahead into a promising, if complicated, future.

Pakistan marked the same occasion by sinking deeper into the past. The corrupt backroom dealing between military rulers and politicians that has produced a cycle of disasters for the Pakistani nation resumed -- aided by the hidden hand of U.S. diplomacy working to preserve President Pervez Musharraf's dwindling power in Islamabad.

PS: No one said Pakistanis are innocent in the affair.

I wrote:

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

...


Indian arguments are ironic... they bring up Hindu pandits when one points out the enormous genocide inflicted by the fascist Indian Army in Kashmir... but in Bengal where a hapless population was butchered way before the Pakistan Army started its nasty business... no tears are shed for them.

BJkumar mian,

She shows that atleast two main sites of massacre changed the number casualties from 8 to 14000 ...

I am afraid none of your points are adequate rebuttals to Dr. Bose's analysis.

Waisay... interesting that you think the West Bengali grand niece of Subhas Chanderbose is a Pakistani agent.

#229 Manto

[…then came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University…]

Ama Manto, stop making a fool of yourself (again)! This Bose girl’s account has been discredited on several fronts:

1) The only point she makes is that Sheikh Mujib (initially) did not want independence. Big deal! Of course he did not. He was the legitimately elected leader of Pakistan and should have been handed over the premiership of the whole country but was denied the same because the racist (West) Pakistanis lacked the guts to do so.

2) She refers to the letting loose of the Pakistani army on the hapless Bangladeshis as a “Civil War� – which was the term the 1971 Pakistani administration (and their backer, that regime of “I am not a crook� Nixon) was using to distribute the blame. I think that is rather dishonest.

3) “Violence was inflicted on both sides� – so it was a war! Big deal! Too bad the Bangladeshis did not turn the other cheek like the khakis wanted. So, when Mukhtaran Mai was being raped and she clawed at the rapists, you would say "violence was being inflicted on both sides!"

4) “Pakistani army did not inflict all the violence.� The Bose gal makes a distinction between what the Bengali collaborators of the khakis did did verus what the khakis did with their own hands. It is like saying that your gun does the actual shooting so you are not responsible for what it kills. I think it is highly dishonest – the collaborators, without the backing, encouragement, and fortification from the Pakistani khakis were zilch, as became evident right after the khakis folded up faster than a baby in diapers pees when somebody says “boo�!

And BTW, if the Pakistanis are so innocent in the affair, why not FINALLY publish the Hamidur Rahman report?! Cat got your tongue?

Perhaps the Pakistani propensity to deny the obvious is not limited to cases of its terrorist acts in India – but part of a long established pattern!

Perhaps the Pakistani motto can be summarized in three simple words:

“Pakistan is forever: to lie, to deny, and then to cry!�

Pakistan has always offered itself as a client state may it be the Americans, Brits, Chinese or Saudis, as long as the price is right Pakistan has been on the One-night stand offer list. Shortterm goals led to inconsistency in domestic and foreign policies and a constant need for a authoritarian state structure.

There are no innocent virgins in this matter starting from Ayub Khan right down till Musharraf and across the political spectrum, sub maal bikao hai (Moola, zamindar, industrialists, judges, cricketers).

After 60 years of its existence Pakistanis still do not have a consensus constitution nor do they have a popularly accepted Paki identity. We are Punjabis, Pukhtoons, Sindhis, Balochis first followed by deobandi, barelvi, shia, wahabi then baradari and this scale can change from situation to situation, but one thing is common and that is the Pakistani spirit always comes in the end.

Pakistani establishment has been shrewd and lucky in providing artificial support systems to a state that is always knocking on default/failure. Back in 1979 it was Jia lul phuck and his complete submission to the US-Saudi nexus that provided the authoritarian state with much needed relief and now in 2001 Mussarraf was given another opportunity. Artificial supports have created an impression of relative prosperity but failed to provide any political cohesion, Pakistanis today are far more divided and different the day this country came into existence. Temporary relief measures will prove to be far more difficult and the only solution will be amputation.

Masadi you creep !!!! (Utterly & Completely Respected)

So you are still trying to spread your bullshyte notions that have been rejected by the rest of the civilized world!!!!

Will you never learn ???

Don't you remember the hiding you got on faithfreedom.org( at the hands of Ali) ???

Don't you remember the disciplinary meetings in the US University just before they deported you in spite of your pleadings???

Don't you remember your abject surrender and begging/whining tone in which you implored for a second chance to be allowed to stay in the US????

Don't you remember the unceremonious manner in which you were comprehensively rejected and kicked out of the US??

Don't you remember the impish grin on the face of the US immigration (INS) official as you were dragged kicking and screaming to the airplane????

Don't you remember the "evil" students in your Pakistani college who made open mockery of the ideas you tried to teach them???

Don't you remember the management committee meeting which unanimously declared you "unfit" to train young Pakistani students???

Don't you remember how you were thrown out of that college and the security staff alerted to never let you enter again ???

Don't you remember how all your pleadings for "outstanding claims" were met with derisive laughter???

Don't you remember how the Chowk staff has consistently refused to publish your bullshyte articles???

Don't you remember how even lulu.com would not accept your "works" any more???

And now, you have found a one-man audience in the intelligent MADani.

Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success.....

#229 Posted by MantoLives,

Even 300,000 is a very large number. One can safely divide it by two sine Mujeeb claimed it. I would think that maybe a third of even that would have been the TOTAL casualties of Bengalis, Beharis, and Pakistanis, on all sides of the civil war, over a period of more than a year till Dec 1971, max.

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?

Dear Mohar,

I was one of those Pakistanis who believed unconditionally in the horrible massacre of Bangladeshis which I considered one sided.

Then along came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University. She declared that there was nothing one sided in Bangladesh and revealed that several of the claims of massacres and genocide against the Pakistan Army were false.

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

The official number claimed by Mujeeb in 1972 was mind you 300 000 ... how that number became 3 million is anyone's guess.