The 'poor' Neighbour

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Re: # 284
First let these corrupt business tycoons fund the Govt. programs by paying proper tax.

Re: # 203
My God....2 WWs. France,Germany, Rome, Greece, Russia etc...they have enough history of blood shed. Indian history is full of wars. After advent of Jainism and Budhdism, the violence in the society reduced to minimal. That was the starting point of diluting military power of Indian kings.

Caste system was not to create group,rather it was a division based on profession. Why caste group will fight with each other? Now, we need different set skills.So, the old caste system is not of any significance now.

As per human belongings are concerned, India may be poorer than Pakistan. Most of this problem is created in 1980s. Pakistani people are benefitting from the closeness of West. They get huge financial assistance from USA and Saudi Arabia for long time. India, an old USSR ally, was very poor still 1990s. So, the rapid change in India is visible to West. If India would have controlled population growth in 80s, India would have been in better state now.

Re: # 268
Indians never liked moslems. When British came, moslems were kicked by Indians with the help of British.
Before islamic invastion in India, Indian Kshatriyas paid more attention to administration than defence/military matters. So, most of the states were well governed, though they were militarily weak. The basic problem of Islamic rule is nicely visible in the administrative chaos created in Pakistan, Bangladesh, UP, Bihar etc... These places were under prolonged islamic rule and fully barbarised. The southern states ( AP, Tamilnadu, Karnataka and Kerala) is devoid of such problem.

After 60 years, difference between two neighbours could not be more stark. One heading north lorea way and the other south korea -way:

"Commonwealth leaders unanimously appointed an Indian as secretary-general on Saturday, two days after the 53-nation federation suspended Pakistan.... "

Full read at-

http://dawn.com/2007/11/25/index.htm

It is so interesting to have a read that Mukesh Ambani's networth is more than twice the fiscal budget of Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Pakistan

For Mukesh Ambani's networth, just google, internet is full of results.

A few such individuals can truly run national budgets of other states in south asia...truly amazing!!

Indian wealthies can fund paki generals for not sending jihadis to India rather than begging their american and chinese masters.

Why this obsession with comparing one country to another?Some writers latch onto a topic like this just to stir things up and Dalrymple appears to be squeezing the last drop out of this.
It is like comparing two individuals even though each has his or her own strengths and weaknesses.
Leave them be; let each develop at his/her/its own pace.But then Dalrymple would have to find something else to write about and he probably won't let go this very juicy Raj/India/Pakistan topic that he has decided to focus on very soon and will probably continue to keep writing about his phirang take on us all....

Mentally Challenged Masadi,

Your mail below only proves that you go around insulting just about everybody you bump into. Whether American or Pakistani or Indian, they are all peons of the West. It is Masadi who is always right. The rest of the world is always wrong.

Foolish mindsets like yours continue to harm this country.

This is for one of the interactors on the other now lost article, who wanted Mead to hand him my head on a silver platter. Unfortunately for him, it didn't turn out that way..

------------------------------- From the ilog for today----

Attended the seminar with Walter Russell Mead and his entourage today (8/27). As I had mentioned earlier, as part of the cultural technician of the US empire (at the Council on Foreign Relations) he is in the business of cloaking US barbarism abroad in the finest silk, draped with the best available perfume of charity, human rights or alternatively the “city on the hill�. I remained silent during most of the Q&A session. There were a few relevant questions asked about Afghanistan, one person mentioned the “War on Terror� being a US search for “Mega Enemies� after the collapse of the SU, to feed the “Military Industrial Complex�, impressive I thought to myself. During the course of that question, that questioner suggested that more people get killed in automobile accidents in the US than get killed by Terrorism to which Walter Russell Mead condescendingly said “I don’t see the relevance of that to anything at all�. Asadi Sahib saw the opportunity and jumped in ; ) ha ha, fine moment, “Can I show the relevance of that please, I asked�. On being allowed by the moderator, I said, “The relevance of that is quite apparent in that the US has placed as priority #1 on its foreign and domestic policy list something that is less harmful than even automobile accidents. Why not have poverty elimination, health care, auto accident prevention much higher on the priority list, than the so-called “war on terror�.

To this Mr. Mead (the fat a$$ sob) replies, “ Automobile accidents cannot be on the foreign policy list, ha ha even though country x……..�

To which I replied, “Auto mobile accidents was just an example to show that the US is giving priority to things that are not as big or harmful as they are made out to be. How about poverty reduction, things that cause greater harm to humanity if the US is as benevolent as you suggest.�

Then he went to a long diatribe about how fitting into the “world system� (something the damn fool didn’t even understand) has caused a lot of poverty reduction around the world and the US has given Pakistan very favorable trade deals, letting them sell whatever they want and that will result in poverty reduction, and the US is the most generous nation on earth, that gives more than any other country, we outsource our jobs, make our people suffer to give you jobs…..yada yada�

I asked the moderator if I could respond to that and was cut off and told that the time was over . The guy was sweating, he didn’t expect a grilling, he expected gracious bows and man-worship the kind the Indians do with the Americans these days or Manto does with Jinnah.

If I was given the opportunity to respond to his BS, I would have pointed to him that more than 50% of the earth’s population lives below $2 a day thanks to the “world system�, that has historically produced a few winners (nearly all European) and most losers (the colored world). Poverty in the US has gone up during the tenure of GWB, and you cannot convince people of the benevolence of the US, when its own house is in disarray with over 40 million people facing food insecurity, and a health care system that sends millions to an early grave due to delayed or unavailable care, all for the profit motive. I would also have told him that foreign reparations of the TNCs that are doing Pakistan a “favor�, have gone up 900% in the past year but not the paltry wages they pay to the workers or the few they employ that are not even a drop in the Pakistan’s labor force. Next, I would have reminded him that US firms relocate not because the US is benevolent and sacrifices the jobs of its own to get rid of “poverty� but because they want to exploit cheap labor in foreign lands, part of a similar resource theft that took place during colonization and they relocate because unions are weak and wages are low, not because the US is handing out its “coat and cloak� as charity.

Well, I was cut off but I conveyed my point. The look on his face was all I wanted to see. We are not damn fools that you rape us, perpetuate poverty among us, use us and discard us and then want us to worship you like tahmed and hand out chicken tikkas and kulfis. Take your fat a$$ back to the corridors of power in Washington, soon that whore- house will crumble, because all structures built on injustice have shaky foundations….

Re: # 274
'As for women being out in the open... true that Pakistani women don't drive scooters... but often enough I stop at a light and every other driver in every other car is a woman..'
Where? Where is this relative freedom? In the poshest areas of Pakistan. In Karachi it used to be so from 1990s to 2004. Now not so. In fact women are in Niqab, Burkha and they do not drive. Saw one or two women in the Defense Clifton posh areas who were driving. Most were in Burkas. Chadars and NiqAabs through out Karachi.

re: 278

Is Biden just dumb or is he like, Indian liberals, totally incapable of learning?

All of us have our own personal preferences but that sob wants AMERICANS to prevent Pakistani moderates from going underground! Who the heck are the Americans to keep Pakistani moderates from going anywhere they choose to, so long as they stay within Pakistan? Will Americans "help" moderates by interfering in Pakistani political matters again?

If anybody thinks this "Pakistan policy" will be any different from "Musharraf policy" then they have never understood a thing about this part of the world.

'Pakistan is world's most dangerous country'
20 Aug 2007, 0813 hrs IST,PTI

WASHINGTON: Terming Pakistan as "the most dangerous country in the world", the US' Senate Committee on Foreign Relations has slammed Bush administration for having a "Musharraf policy" instead of a policy for Pakistan.

"The fact of the matter is, Pakistan is the most dangerous, potentially the most dangerous country in the world. A significant minority of jihadists with nuclear weapons. We have no Pakistan policy; we have a Musharraf policy," chairman of the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations Senator Joseph R Biden said at a debate featuring the Democratic candidates sponsored by ABC News at the Drake University in Iowa.

"That's a bad policy. The policy should be based upon a long-term relationship with Pakistan and stability," the Senator, who is also seeking Democratic Party nomination for 2008 US Presidential elections, said.

Biden stressed on the need to conduct a free and fair elections in Pakistan to prevent the moderates, who are in "overwhelming majority", from going underground.

"We should be encouraging free elections. There is an overwhelming majority of moderates in that country. They should have their day. Otherwise, they are going to go underground," the powerful Chair of the Senate Committee said.

During the debate, former Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards terming Musharraf as "not a wonderful leader" said, "He provides some stability in Pakistan. And there is a great risk, if he's overthrown, about a radical government taking over."

"They have a nuclear weapon. They are in constant tension with India, which also has nuclear weapons, over Kashmir. I mean, it's a dangerous, volatile situation," Edwards added.

And it has done infinitely better evidently when it comes to the ground reality...

So what does that tell you?

Re: # 274
"However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own..."

Isn't 60 years enough time to come to grips with reality...Or is some more time needed for that?

"Indian roads are safer"

It is merely a perception. In threat perception levels Pakistan might be much higher.. but in threat reality... Pakistan and India are about the same.

nandan ...

No one denies that the Indian society driven by its Hindu Majority is infinitely more politically and socially evolved than Muslims ... who lagged behind in modern education during the colonial period.

However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own...

As for women being out in the open... true that Pakistani women don't drive scooters... but often enough I stop at a light and every other driver in every other car is a woman..
so I am not sure how much of a difference there is vis a vis openness of women. Pakistani women have come out in large numbers.

Visiting Pakistan will undoubtedly smash some of the stereotypes Indians have about Pakistan.

manto my friend,
have you ever come to india...sure your roads,airports etc are better but Indian roads are much safer. I remember an delegation of women from pakistan had come to india, they were suprised to see so many women out in open...women working...riding scooters...without getting harrased or haggled...whats the use of better roads or better infrastructure without freedom
regards
Nandan

Re: # 271
haaha....logical religion indeed....for osama and his killers
the 9/11 is perfectly logical and so are hudood, hijab,sharia....
and the whole world is sick of it.
Maybe if you cleanse you brainwashed head and read a bit of history ..there is hope for you

Re: # 270hahaha
well it seems tht u live in utopia well whtever u said was just opposite...
read any of the history related bk it has written tht majority of hindus were converted in to MUSLIMS by their own will bcoz ISLAM is a logical religion dis is the reality which has accepted by whole world today so u better read some gud stuff to increase ur poor knowledge its gud 4 u.

jeech ,
grow up..I mean I am tired of hearing pakis how the muslims ruled over India...and I am tired of responding that most muslims of pakistan are converted hindus..so what applies to hindus applies to the majority pakis even you.
As for muslims ...especially the arabs are busy licking american a**.
come on move on from the age old rhetoric...

re: jeech # 268

jeech, before some people take offense, let me say I do, in an odd way, agree with your second para. There is an important Hindu-Muslim difference in this matter, and sometime we might discuss it. Best.

William apparently sounds correct... but there is not much difference happening right now in India, India contribute a huge ratio of poverty in the world... what if some westerners show Indians a dream.

Hindus, as the matter of fact, have been worshiping the rising suns. A few hundred years ago they had been bowing against Muslims and now against the westerners... A dream of supremacy is like a half penny from the west.
(No offence)

Re: # 266
Ha haThis must be the master race’s version of paki-bashing. I wonder what they were shouting when they attacked, hail fuehrer.

er...say...arjun/jayp/chennai...I guess they dont know how great Indians are in germany...or maybe the germans were confused and thought they were paki cab drivers, not indian IT billionaires....ha! ha!

Mob of 50 attacks Indians in east German town DRESDEN, Germany, Aug 20 (Reuters) A mob shouting racial insults attacked eight Indians at a town fair in east Germany, then chased them and besieged them inside a pizzeria until they were rescued by police, officials said Monday. Around 70 police were required to disperse the mob of 50 people, which gathered after revellers shouted abuse and threw bottles at the Indians during the town fair in Muegeln, east of Leipzig, Saturday night, police said. All of the Indians were injured, he said. (Posted @ 21:00 PST)

HAHA..pakis ki phut gayi...can't match india's growth rate..and inflation is through the roof..

No choice but to match India growth

Nadeem Syed, Javed Mehmood, Monem Farooqi & Naqi Akbar
LAHORE - Pakistan cannot afford to lag behind India in growth rate for the sake of maintaining peace and parity in the region. As such Pakistan needs to keep a robust growth rate of 7 to 9 pert cent especially with respect to India. It is also imperative for the country’s integrity in the long run.
Dr Salman Shah, the advisor to the Prime Minister for Economic Affairs was talking to The Nation panel here Monday. He talked at length about the economic outlook as well as the positioning of the Pakistani economy especially with respect to capital market growth, foreign direct investment as well as the level of reforms undertaken by the current political dispensation. To substantiate the contention that the Musharraf government has been ahead of the previous governments in correcting the economic fundamentals he made a detailed presentation taking stock of the growth rates, fiscal deficits containment, external debt as well as the growth of the middle income group during the period between 1999 to 2005.
Elaborating the India-Pakistan growth imperative, he argued that with Pakistan keeping as much of growth rate as of India, Pakistan was ensuring peace in the region remain intact. He said that Pakistan following a high growth rate would ensure not only peace but also its strategic security.

Heh He....

Mushy, having pocketed 5 Billion US$ is in ape shit...and clueless like his country..

Musharraf in serious trouble, says South Asia expert
Monday 20th August, 2007
(ANI)
Washington, Aug 20 : Noted South Asia expert Teresita C Schaffer feels that Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf, who has been the centrepiece of US policymaking in the region, is in "serious trouble" ahead of the elections in the country.

According to Schaffer, of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Musharraf is facing an awakened political opposition in Pakistan, though not a united one.

Schaffer said in a recent interview to the Council on Foreign Relations that the trouble for Musharraf lies in the fact that many people think it is in some sense democratically inappropriate for the President to get himself elected by assemblies that are about to be abolished.

That is going to be a focus for political protest, Schaffer said, adding that the more complicated issue, however, is that Musharraf wants to run as a general and head of the army.

She said that Musharraf's second source of trouble is related to domestic extremism, following the Lal Masjid episode.

The Daily Times quoted Schaffer as saying that the problem started with Musharraf's decision to send in the army to the Lal Masjid in Islamabad. The aftermath of that decision has been a string of violence that is unmatched in the Capital, as well as in the areas near the Afghan border, and also far away from that.

She said the violence in Pakistan since the Lal Masjid operation may lead to rethinking among army leaders on the value of maintaining extremists in the country as a political force.

"We need to watch and see if they have really decided they need to put these people out of business. If they have, that would be an important policy turn for the United States. To be fair, it's a high-risk policy, but there are no risk-free policies in today's Pakistan," she said.

However, she added that Musharraf's basic approach to the extremists, both the domestic ones and those on the Afghan circuit, has been to hedge-- try to keep them under control, but not to put them out of business.

The third problem the General faces, according to her, is the traditional feud with India. Schaffer said that Kashmir is the "poster child" for this dispute, but by no means the only part of it.

At the moment, India and Pakistan have a going. It's not clear that this dialogue is going to accomplish anything much in the near term, but at least it represents a decision by both governments that they would rather talk than squabble, she said.

I can see some genuine conscious effort by educated muslims, and not merely taqquiya, to say that they are not "like that".
A conscious effort not to be clubbed with mians and mullahs who claim to represent Islam and hence Pakistan.

But , I do not think it is loud enough.

As Indians say - "we have to see the ground realities".

true, the ground realities stem from Pakistani constitution.

Islam is still entrenched in it. And until remanents of political Islam are not BANISHED from Pakistani constitution, I cannot see any hope of Pakistan not going the Afghanistan way in the coming years to come.

Igbnoring the reality is the pak trade mark, and no infrastructure can solve that. See the statistics below for Karachi alone, fram jang of today. Note that 18 bodies were discovered, these are the ones who died and no one would dare to make a police complaint, they are the jihadic killings, cleared by the Ehdi society and given a burial , and no one wants to know about them.


118 persons lost their lives last week
Kamran Mansoor

Karachi

At least 118 persons lost their lives during the last week, of whom 14 people were shot dead, 18 murdered, two committed suicide, eight of them were burnt to death, 15 drowned, 18 bodies were recovered, while 43 were killed in accidents including 21 in rains.

At least 1,309 robberies were committed in the city, out of which 1,085 were mobile phones snatching or stolen cases, 28 cars and 65 motorcycles snatching cases.

People were robbed of valuables in 130 other incidents of robberies. A total of 309 cases of thefts were reported during the last week, in which 63 cars, 172 motorcycles were taken away from different parts of the city.

/////////////////////////

No tahmed, no YLH would want to comment on the above statistics, 118 people killed, and you can see that same numbers are routinely killed in karachi every week,. See Jang for other details. Infrastructure in a barbarian society can only facilitate barbaric acts.

State of Anxiety

By Michael Hirsh And Ron Moreau
Newsweek

Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue - Pervez Musharraf has always been a dubious ally in George W. Bush's War on Terror—the kind of guy you avert your eyes from while patting him on the back. It's not that Bush doubts the Pakistani leader's sincerity—"He shares the same concern about radicals and extremists as I do and as the American people do," the president said at an Aug. 9 news conference—it's just that Musharraf is never going to make it into Bush's democracy club. And Musharraf's ability to stop his nation's Islamist radicalism from spilling over into terrorism has always been limited. A genial autocrat who seized power in a 1999 coup and has refused to relinquish his general's uniform, Musharraf has succeeded in keeping Washington on his side by regularly handing over second-tier Qaeda suspects and by keeping tenuous control over his increasingly Islamicized country. But now Musharraf may be losing his grip on power amid rising concerns by senior U.S. officials that a new safe haven for Al Qaeda has emerged in Pakistan's rocky, ungoverned tribal regions, especially Waziristan.


As a result, an increasing number of voices in Washington—from Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama to hard-line officials in the Bush administration—are calling for unilateral military action inside Pakistan. NEWSWEEK has learned that for weeks Pentagon officials have been debating the current policy of not violating Pakistani sovereignty, coming down in favor of restraint. But some officers in Joint Special Operations Command are "pawing the ground to go into Waziristan," says one Pentagon consultant who is privy to the debate but would speak about classified discussions only anonymously. Congress, meanwhile, has passed legislation that threatens to cut off aid to Pakistan if President Bush can't certify that Musharraf is doing all he can. "It's very humiliating for Musharraf," says retired Pakistani Lt. Gen. Talat Masood. "It could even destabilize him." That's one reason Bush continues to stand by him. Administration officials fear that if Musharraf falls and Pakistan descends into political chaos, then a nuclear-armed state could fail and Pakistan's nuclear know-how might end up in the wrong hands.

Even short of that doomsday scenario, senior U.S. officials, both active and retired, say that without more decisive action Al Qaeda will grow, if not flourish, in the tribal areas. And someday the U.S. homeland will likely be attacked from there, they say, just as Al Qaeda once used Afghanistan as a base from which to plot the 9/11 attacks. In late July a National Intelligence Estimate—a periodic assessment that is considered the most authoritative issued by the U.S. government—concluded Al Qaeda has "regenerated key elements" of its ability to attack the United States from the tribal regions of North Waziristan and Bajaur. Hank Crumpton, a near-legendary CIA clandestine service officer who retired last year as the State Department's counterterrorism coordinator, says Washington needs to do more than rely on the Pakistani military and intelligence services. "I'd go in there [tribal areas] with a hard-core counterinsurgency effort," Crumpton told NEWSWEEK. He would seek Pakistan's consent—"but I wouldn't pretend that this is sovereign territory. It is not."
CONTINUED

http://thedailycolumns.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/60-years/


Commemorating our sixtieth year of Independence, India’s top news channel Jetix went around asking random Indians what they thought were the ten most significant moments in the last sixty years of Indian History. After talking to about a thousand gazillion Indians (approximately one eighth of India’s total population), Jetix managed to compile an undisputable list of India’s ten greatest moments and achievements in the last sixty years. There were a few moments in the list that had completely escaped the collective memory of us Indians until the colorfully dressed Japanese midgets of Jetix recaptured it for us.


Titled : TOP TEN GOLDEN MOMENTS OF FREE INDIA

....the rest you have to read it there...

#257 jayp: clinging to every straw you can find, eh? :-)

YLH, read dawn every day and find out teh state of pakistan economy and infrastructure.

from dawn of today


KARACHI: PSQCA without electricity for a week


KARACHI, Aug 18: In the aftermath of the recent heavy rains in Karachi, the Pakistan Standards and Quality Control Authority has been without electricity for the past one week, says a PSQCA press release issued on Saturday.

It deplores that the ‘under-ground cable fault’ has not been detected as yet in spite of the passage of one week.

The statement further said that officials of the Karachi Electricity Supply Corporation are unable to say as to when the electricity supply of this important organisation will be restored.

It also expresses the apprehension that the samples of millions of rupees sent by the industry for laboratory testing might go to waste in view of the electricity outage.

tahmed 174,

I had been telling that pakistan will become a jihadic country for a long time and pakistanis have proved me right. Even in the far away USA, the topic is to bomb pakistan or not. For a long time pakistanis claimed that jihadis are in the rural areas, fanned by poverty, lal majid has proved me correct, the jihadis are from the educated class in the urban areas. supported by the mums and dads and not by the saudi money.

Now take the case pak talk about india. On chowk, I recall there was one romair, who kept telling that indian IT is nothing, there is no future, they are the code coolies. Now no one talks about that.

Pakistans core is rotten, the TNT, and till that is destroyed there can be no progress. Pakistan will sink further into jihadic morass. No benazir, no musheraff can save pakistan.

As pakistanis teh only thing they can do is to accelerate the decline so that the nadir is reached quicker and an improvement can begin.

Inrastructure and the military


There is so much talk about the pak infrastructure. No one mentioned that the major roads and buildings are built by the Hational Logistics Company a unit of the pak military. Many of the roads are built with no regard to the needs simply to transfer money to the military.

Pk military spending is not 25 percent of teh budget as claimed, it includes so much of money transferred to the military owned companies ranging from corn flakes to cement to infrastructure companies.

Many countries have an army, in pakistan the army has a country.

Nsqbandi 169

I gave some specific examples of stupid economic policy to illustrate that pakistanis even when educated do not understand the essence of sciences because of their conditioning by the religion.

I cited the examples from economic policy

here are a few from the social area. Take the case of thousands of pakistansi geeting passport to go for higher studies. Each and every one of them in their application make a statement that ahmadis are bad guys, they are non muslims , they are kafirs and the like. No pakistani, the educated ones have never raised the issue, because each one of them support what they state on the passport application. They all support the deal meted out to abdus salam, he uis a non-person in pakistan, no one mentions his name.

No one ever, as I have seen on chowk have said anything about abdus salam, stating that the non recognision given to abdus salam is a deep seated flaw in the pak thinking and how wcientific values are secondary to islamic values, and honoring a nobel prize winner, a non muslim is unthinkable for any pakistani.

The fact remains that teh collective pakistan can never honour abdus salam, and thsi collectve value is not that produced by the mullahs, it produced by men like you, naqbandi, the likes of YLH and tahmed.

Hey manto...IT is booming in the land of the pure...


A secular-minded Musharraf practised obfuscation and ambivalence as political theory. He rode the conservative PMLQ while mouthing secular slogans in reference to governance, the minorities and women. He thought passports could be bowdlerised of narrow-minded entries, but backed down when his party balked. He put joint electorates in the 17th Amendment but chickened out when it came to giving Ahmedis the same status as other non-Muslims. The policy on the madrassas was his most blatant failure. Under him the number of madrassas in Pakistan doubled, including the ones that opened right under his nose in Islamabad. The number of boys who joined the seminaries also doubled, and in Karachi the honeycomb of sectarian Deobandi madrassas proudly announced “house full� on admission days. He saw the hostile proliferation but kept quiet. The jihadi graduates of these madrassas tried to kill him, but he kept drawing in his horns rather than grasping the nettle and getting rid of the menace. He let the Lal Masjid affair simmer for years till it blew up in his face. In fact, he let Lal Masjid stage a mammoth anti-Shia gathering of sectarian criminals in 2006, thus throwing dust in the eyes of the “liberals� who supported him.

Like his adventure at Kargil, his mobilisation against Al Qaeda in Waziristan failed because of incompetence. The sectarian killings that had picked up in his tenure actually reached their peak. His “bold� operation in Balochistan alienated many because he attempted it without political support and in defiance of all advice. All sincere advice to him about attempting an alignment of the liberal forces behind him fell on deaf ears. By the time he realised that he had to talk to the political leaders he had ousted, his strangely “incomplete� personality had queered the pitch for any meaningful reconciliation.

Horror of Horrors !!!
Masadi is being taken seriously by the Minister for education !!!!
Masadi is submitting reports to the government!!!
Higher education in Pakistan shall henceforth be on lines suggested by Masadi!!!


Pinch !!! Wake up !!!! Pinch !!!

We have only Masadi's word for it.

It must be as true as the remainder of his bullshyte , viz his 'students" conducting "research" and publishing "papers" in his "institute". Masadi working towards the "Nobel Prize". Lulu.com being a better publisher than Springer Verlag, McGraw Hill, Prentice Hall etc.

Some prople will believe anything.....

Let us hope that as and when the tottering government falls and the Ministers and their lackeys are executed (nay, shot on the streets like rabid dogs)-- a few particularly sidey llackeys are not allowed to escape.

Re: Anil #250

I cannot disagree with you on this one.

The number that I gave is still staggering.

My problem is with how quickly South Asian

lives are cheapened, especially during partitions,

during 1947 or 1971 (for me this was a partition too).

I like your ideals:

"I believe a crime is committed when a single innocent is killed, raped or maimed."


Ras

now we are really effed !

....... mad masadi is in charge of shaping pakistan's higher education ! ......... i felt much safer with the mullahs of jamia hafsa and jamia fareedia - all they wanted was to teach us how to harness the power of jinns to solve the energy crisis and use camel urine to cure cancer ..... with masadi in charge we will all be reading mills and boone and blaming the american elite for everything that afflicts pakistan ..........verily, we are doomed .........

Ras:

I wrote what I saw from my eyes and heard from ears. Only thing I can say is that together we may present a more complete picture. With our biases included, I being an Indian student in England, and you being a non-bengali in East Pakistan. Also, you know what "mostly but not exclusively" kind of phrases mean, depending upon the audience.

It is for this reason, I had mentioned that I did not want to discuss. The perspective that I come from even one rape is too much, be it done by Indian-Army in Kashmir, or Pakistani Army in East Pakistan, or the U.S. marines in Iraq.

For a long time my life's rules do not allow me to accept "mostly but not exclusively" irrespective of who use it and when uses it. I believe a crime is committed when a single innocent is killed, raped or maimed. No matter where, including in the streets of Srinagar, and Gujrat; or Baghdad.

I completely agree with your closing lines.

I

Re: Anil #241 and #244

Since I was there till March 8, 1971, all I can add

is that non-Bengalis were being picked off and murdered

long before the Army acted on March 25, 1971.

The reaction was far more terrible than the action.

It was a sad time for humanity all around.

I asked one of my old teachers about what happened after

I left. He said that around 100,000 people were killed

mostly but not exclusively by the Pakistan Army.

My old teacher was an American who did not have any reason

to lie.

I asked him about the 3 Million figure. He just smiled

and said that somebody needed to start exposing the truth

about that time. He said that the highest number of people

killed were on March 25-26. He was there all along till long

after the surrender.

It was a shameful period for Pakistan. Let us hope that

such events are not duplicated anywhere today.



Ras

Arjun "Federal minister of the slave-to-the-west government? "

Yes, ain't that something?, he sees the light, agrees with my claim of his government being a lackey of the West and pushes the recommendation article titled "Overcoming the 'Colonial Subordination Model of Education'..."

Your parliamentary secretary has already declared a jihad on the US...

Jihad against India, US is the only remedy, says LeT chief
From our ANI Correspondent

Lahore, Aug 15: Banned terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has said that jihad is the only remedy for all threats posed by India and US.




The LeT chief told a large rally at Regal Chowk that the India and US were directly involved in terrorism and sabotage activities inside Pakistan.

He claimed that the Pakistan Government was alleging that jihadis and Afghan mujahideens were carrying out bomb blasts, but this was being done just to please America.

"We have always stated that no mujahideen would ever get involved in suicide blasts against innocent civilians, and this stance was vindicated by the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary.

He said US leaders have been threatening attacks on Muslim holy places, and added that the nation was not afraid of any such threats.

Saeed said the rulers had caused great loss to the nation by befriending Washington and New Delhi, and allowing India to build a fence along the LoC, as well as by participating in the so-called grand jirga in Kabul.

Referring to a statement by the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence in the Senate, Saeed said that the Pakistan Government has adopted policies against Islam, and the wind of change has started blowing.

Saeed said the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary signified changes at the top, and added that it was the inner voice of the whole nation.

He warned that if the rulers did not change their policies then they themselves would have to be changed.

He further said that policies of the rulers had already created serious hatred against the Pakistan Army and the present situation resembled that of 1971, The News reported.

#239 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 11:33:58 am


HAHA...manto ko mirchi lagi..

India: IT
Pakistan: IT(Islamic Terrorism)

#243 Posted by masadi on August 18, 2007 12:19:18 pm


Thank you, yes the peak of my career was attained earlier this month when the Federal Minister in charge of the committee


Federal minister of the slave-to-the-west government?

Yasser:

It is all meaningless explanation to a person like me. I have no ex to grind. I saw all that I have mentioned here. Such study is something a person like me will not give a cent worth of credence, let alone read. I commented because you quoted. A person I respect. Honestly, I do not wish to get involved in discussiing it further, as I am not here to change your mind.

Thanks

Okhla writes "Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success..... "

Thank you, yes the peak of my career was attained earlier this month when the Federal Minister in charge of the committee for Govt Reforms said that my recommendations on how to improve higher education in this country will be sent to all Social Science departments in the country (not a city but the whole country you fool), with the seal of approval of his committee that has reviewed them thoroughly... And how did he receive my report, it was forwarded as recommendation from the Chairman HEC..

Now that is greater success than most educators, returned from US recently or otherwise can claim or muster and LULU has NOTHING to do with it.....

I did not revise anything. I have said that Pakistan Army's reaction after 25th March was excessive and brutal. However... Dr. Bose has actually questioned some of Mr. Mascerhenas' assertions. Calling it Bose & Co... will not undo the fact that it was a Harvard funded study led by an Indian scholar of some integrity who had no reason to change her findings to Pakistan Army's benefit. Neither will "googling" or the Beatles' Album take away from the credibility of such a study.

Coming as it did the Harvard funded study of Bangladesh war some 35 years after the event, I think Dr. Bose, given that she is not ISI's agent as far as I know, needs to be given a chance.

And what is her conclusion. It is definitely not that Pakistan Army was blameless... but that genocide happened ferociously on both sides. And as for what kind of person I am... allow me to say that I am no longer the kind of person who would accept outrageously impossible figures simply to win brownie points with Indians as a "liberal".

So forgive me for not accepting a casualty figure and a rape figure which basically means that every Pakistani soldier was raping two women and killing two men every five minutes continuously from March 25, 1971 to December 16, 1971....

Re: # 229

Yasser:

When you quote people like Dr. Bose you are trying to revise the black history of that unfortunate period. I know you are not that kind of person. I also know on this account your patriotism is best served to unconditionally denounce it, and not revising by quoting Dr. Bose & Co. Bose & Co. cannot be anything other than discredited bunch. There must be so much information on it that you probably can Google it yourself. After all, a Beatle George Harrison made an album too. You may dismiss all these facts, and stick to Dr. Bose & Co., the choice is yours no doubt.

I had the opportunity of being on the front and watch each night BBC news about this entire situation. BBC and ITN coverage was so vivid and complete, it was like watching the entire war from front and center row.

Among other numerous coverages, I read coverages in London Times, by a Pakistani journalist, Anthony Mascarhenas. He used to be the journalist for Dawn, if my memonry serves right, before leaving in disgust. There are vivid pictures of brutalities by armed Pakistanis.

Sevral sensible Paksitani students in those days were disgusted also. I also remember, a very aristocratic Bengali student couple was against this war. Even they would not sit with the Pakistani group, after the war was started. That break in the Pakistani group was so complete after the war started.

Thoroughly covered fact is that prior to Bangladesh war, Urdu speaking population of East Pakistan had arms, not Bengalis. I had seen them talking and showing off on BBC and ITN news in England in those days. Unarmed people cannot be as dangerous as armed, with backing of the Pakistani Army.

I still vividly remember the pictures and video of the ghastly and gruesome pictures of massacre of students of the university (I believe Dhaka Univ. or may be Chittagong).

No one who has seen this action, will give any credence to Dr. Bose & Co. No one.

For Zeemax:

Part of the surrender terms were that India will not handover Pakistani POWs to Mukti Bahini or Bangladesh, and will be responsible for their safety. And that no Pakistani officer will be prosecuted for war crimes, or crime against humanity - or whatever it was called in those days. Even though were news that appealed to India to hand them over to the U.N. for the war crime trials.

Interestingly, a senior Pakistani person, Mr. Siddiqui, suddenly appeared on the university campus. He claimed to be coming to the library to prepare for law exams. He would sit with the Indian students somedays, or with Pakistani students on other days for his tea. He would talk endlessly. We all figured it out that he was not whom he claimed, but probably was the person sent by Pakistan High Commission to keep an eye on and to give feedback from students at the campuses.

The raving lunatic Okhla is lying about everything (except chowk censoring my articles) in the below reproduced BS diatribe, in fact it is quite pathetic that idiots like him have to invent bs to discredit my quite well established, well argued posts....like Madani sahib said these bastar** are just jealous because they cannot approach my posts except by inventing lies. Btw nobody deported me from the US or fired me from any US university, I came back to Pakistan of my own volition, away from the land of cheerful morons like okhla, slaves yet happy in their enslavement....Now go eff off okhla.... and don't spam all boards you damn fool

Yes... your country has an air... hot air... nothing else. These journalists can go on trying to prop you up... but in the end we can all safely conclude that Indians will be Indians ... and there will no real progress along the lines the powers that be desperately want India to move.

Meanwhile Pakistan has better infrastructure, less poverty and more reliable electricity.

Makes sense why I live a comfortable life in my own country and you live a dog's even outside yours.

#230 Posted by zeemax on August 18, 2007 9:44:49 am


I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?


Because India doesn't give a shit...and the real criminals are the generals who ordered the killings and fled when india advanced..

besides, the indians threatened to hand the pakis over to the bengalis in case the captured pakis didn't do as instructed...chadddi utar gayi "tiger" ke soldiers ki...

#235 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 10:31:49 am


Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized


Criticized for butchering hundreds of thousands of people?

p.s. the bangladeshis, the victims in all this, put the figure at hundreds of thousands...

The Model That India Offers

By Jim Hoagland
Sunday, August 19, 2007; Page B07

India celebrated its 60th birthday last week with a raucous parliamentary debate over nuclear energy and its new strategic relationship with the United States. New Delhi had the air of the capital of an emerging world power looking ahead into a promising, if complicated, future.

Pakistan marked the same occasion by sinking deeper into the past. The corrupt backroom dealing between military rulers and politicians that has produced a cycle of disasters for the Pakistani nation resumed -- aided by the hidden hand of U.S. diplomacy working to preserve President Pervez Musharraf's dwindling power in Islamabad.

PS: No one said Pakistanis are innocent in the affair.

I wrote:

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

...


Indian arguments are ironic... they bring up Hindu pandits when one points out the enormous genocide inflicted by the fascist Indian Army in Kashmir... but in Bengal where a hapless population was butchered way before the Pakistan Army started its nasty business... no tears are shed for them.

BJkumar mian,

She shows that atleast two main sites of massacre changed the number casualties from 8 to 14000 ...

I am afraid none of your points are adequate rebuttals to Dr. Bose's analysis.

Waisay... interesting that you think the West Bengali grand niece of Subhas Chanderbose is a Pakistani agent.

#229 Manto

[…then came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University…]

Ama Manto, stop making a fool of yourself (again)! This Bose girl’s account has been discredited on several fronts:

1) The only point she makes is that Sheikh Mujib (initially) did not want independence. Big deal! Of course he did not. He was the legitimately elected leader of Pakistan and should have been handed over the premiership of the whole country but was denied the same because the racist (West) Pakistanis lacked the guts to do so.

2) She refers to the letting loose of the Pakistani army on the hapless Bangladeshis as a “Civil War� – which was the term the 1971 Pakistani administration (and their backer, that regime of “I am not a crook� Nixon) was using to distribute the blame. I think that is rather dishonest.

3) “Violence was inflicted on both sides� – so it was a war! Big deal! Too bad the Bangladeshis did not turn the other cheek like the khakis wanted. So, when Mukhtaran Mai was being raped and she clawed at the rapists, you would say "violence was being inflicted on both sides!"

4) “Pakistani army did not inflict all the violence.� The Bose gal makes a distinction between what the Bengali collaborators of the khakis did did verus what the khakis did with their own hands. It is like saying that your gun does the actual shooting so you are not responsible for what it kills. I think it is highly dishonest – the collaborators, without the backing, encouragement, and fortification from the Pakistani khakis were zilch, as became evident right after the khakis folded up faster than a baby in diapers pees when somebody says “boo�!

And BTW, if the Pakistanis are so innocent in the affair, why not FINALLY publish the Hamidur Rahman report?! Cat got your tongue?

Perhaps the Pakistani propensity to deny the obvious is not limited to cases of its terrorist acts in India – but part of a long established pattern!

Perhaps the Pakistani motto can be summarized in three simple words:

“Pakistan is forever: to lie, to deny, and then to cry!�

Pakistan has always offered itself as a client state may it be the Americans, Brits, Chinese or Saudis, as long as the price is right Pakistan has been on the One-night stand offer list. Shortterm goals led to inconsistency in domestic and foreign policies and a constant need for a authoritarian state structure.

There are no innocent virgins in this matter starting from Ayub Khan right down till Musharraf and across the political spectrum, sub maal bikao hai (Moola, zamindar, industrialists, judges, cricketers).

After 60 years of its existence Pakistanis still do not have a consensus constitution nor do they have a popularly accepted Paki identity. We are Punjabis, Pukhtoons, Sindhis, Balochis first followed by deobandi, barelvi, shia, wahabi then baradari and this scale can change from situation to situation, but one thing is common and that is the Pakistani spirit always comes in the end.

Pakistani establishment has been shrewd and lucky in providing artificial support systems to a state that is always knocking on default/failure. Back in 1979 it was Jia lul phuck and his complete submission to the US-Saudi nexus that provided the authoritarian state with much needed relief and now in 2001 Mussarraf was given another opportunity. Artificial supports have created an impression of relative prosperity but failed to provide any political cohesion, Pakistanis today are far more divided and different the day this country came into existence. Temporary relief measures will prove to be far more difficult and the only solution will be amputation.

Masadi you creep !!!! (Utterly & Completely Respected)

So you are still trying to spread your bullshyte notions that have been rejected by the rest of the civilized world!!!!

Will you never learn ???

Don't you remember the hiding you got on faithfreedom.org( at the hands of Ali) ???

Don't you remember the disciplinary meetings in the US University just before they deported you in spite of your pleadings???

Don't you remember your abject surrender and begging/whining tone in which you implored for a second chance to be allowed to stay in the US????

Don't you remember the unceremonious manner in which you were comprehensively rejected and kicked out of the US??

Don't you remember the impish grin on the face of the US immigration (INS) official as you were dragged kicking and screaming to the airplane????

Don't you remember the "evil" students in your Pakistani college who made open mockery of the ideas you tried to teach them???

Don't you remember the management committee meeting which unanimously declared you "unfit" to train young Pakistani students???

Don't you remember how you were thrown out of that college and the security staff alerted to never let you enter again ???

Don't you remember how all your pleadings for "outstanding claims" were met with derisive laughter???

Don't you remember how the Chowk staff has consistently refused to publish your bullshyte articles???

Don't you remember how even lulu.com would not accept your "works" any more???

And now, you have found a one-man audience in the intelligent MADani.

Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success.....

#229 Posted by MantoLives,

Even 300,000 is a very large number. One can safely divide it by two sine Mujeeb claimed it. I would think that maybe a third of even that would have been the TOTAL casualties of Bengalis, Beharis, and Pakistanis, on all sides of the civil war, over a period of more than a year till Dec 1971, max.

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?

Dear Mohar,

I was one of those Pakistanis who believed unconditionally in the horrible massacre of Bangladeshis which I considered one sided.

Then along came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University. She declared that there was nothing one sided in Bangladesh and revealed that several of the claims of massacres and genocide against the Pakistan Army were false.

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

The official number claimed by Mujeeb in 1972 was mind you 300 000 ... how that number became 3 million is anyone's guess.

#226 Posted by mohar11,

Yaar Mohar, you feed people any shyte and they will believe it. Whenever any Pakistani says that, just ask him the same questions I asked you.

Where's the evidence?

Your arguments are exactly like Rumsfeld's. "If we don't have any evidence of it's existence, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means we haven't found it yet".

He really said that, and that's what you're saying.

#225 Posted by mohar11,

You tell me where it says there was a genocide or pogrom. BTW it was published first in India and only later in Pakistan.

Most pakis already acknowledge this fact of mass scale genocide in bdesh... it's very surprsing to hear you being denial... you being a non-liberaloon and all that...

What does Hamdoor Rehman report say?...it's only partially published - that itself says a lot... doesn't it?

#222 Posted by mohar11,

If the Chinese got hold of any Japanese after the war, they killed them all. Both nations are equally brutal. What's that got to do with the Pak/B'Desh example?

Yaar listen ... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. There were 90,000 POWs in Bharat for a whole two years. Bharat's allies Sh. Mujeeb and the Muktis were incharge in B'desh. Why was not a single Pak POW brought to trial or even alleged of any war crime by B' Desh?

The answer is, there was no mass massacre. Atrocities towards individuals, yes, but no pogrom.

i mean - prosecution

zee

Point taken... what about japanese atrocities against chinese?... has there been any persecution?... or the point is - there are many cases of atrocities where guilt have not been taken to task...

#220 Posted by mohar11,

...no american has been prosecuted for atrocities in vietnam...

Hmm .. Lt. Calley and Ernest Medina and My Lai massacre.

So much for your ignorance of facts, which leaves no room for debate.

zee

Just because no american has been prosecuted for atrocities in vietnam doesn't mean it didn't happen...

Like I said - you are not differnt from the liberaloon... a true muslim will never deny holocaust bdesh...

[...confirmed by a survey conducted two years ago by the former Pakistan cricket captain turned politician, Imran Khan, in his own constituency of Mianwali. His research showed that 20% of government schools supposed to be functioning in his constituency did not exist at all, a quarter had no teachers and 70% were closed.]

20+25+70=115

kam se kam figures ko sahi tarike se quote karne ka tarika to sikhlo williamabheiya. May be 25 percent of 80 percent which existed. And may be 70 percent which were closed were not counted again in 25 percent without teachers. Just curious, what would the schools without teachers were doing daily? There could not any teaching surely. So may be bachche logs were entertained by a neighbourhood kalandar who showed drama of bandar bandaria ki shadi. Bachche log tali bajao.

#216 Posted by Kamath,

No Islamic Paradise, but certainly a very powerful Islamic bloc.

From wikipedia entry for Vagina Monologues:

[Every year a new monologue is added to highlight a current issue affecting women around the world. The monologue is performed at thousands of local V-Day benefit productions of the play that take place annually in February and March raising funds for local groups, shelters, crisis centers working to end violence against women. In 2003, for example, Ensler wrote a new monologue about the plight of women in Afghanistan under Taliban rule. This Monologue is known as "Under the Burqa."]

May be Ensler should write a Mukhtaran Monologue.

#208 Posted by zeemax

"..Islam is going through a natural upheaval, and it cannot be without violence. One group will emerge from all this as dominant over the others within Islam..."

Do you think Islam will go into an Resurgence Mode and will establish Dar-ul-Islam in the 21st century? Already it is fact Muslim population is prety big almost 2 Billions and still rising and rising, When motivated, inspired and armed by Islamic idealism, zeal etc.Do you think such Islamic Paradise will finally be ushered into our world?

Kamath

#213 Posted by mohar11,

Bring up any hard evidence of Pak mass atrocities in B'Desh in '71. No wikipedia or journalists' musings please.

Or alternatively, you may wonder why none of the Pak POWs was tried as war criminals by Bharat and neither did Sh. Mujib demand the same.

Now, I will ask you, how many Kashmiris have you killed? Is it because they are not Bharti hinuds or is it because they are rebels?

You'll find in the answer why there have been operations in Baluchistan.

Quotes from two places in article:

1. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

2. As a result, in many of the more backward parts of Pakistan the local feudal zamindar can expect his people to vote for his chosen candidate. Such loyalty can be enforced. Many of the biggest zamindars have private prisons and most have private armies.

-----

So is it possible that a bunch of zamindars decided that they wanted to show how "progressive" they are and their loyal "subjects" and "prisoners" from their private prisons were called upon to be vociferous audience of the Monologues? Pakistan me kuchh bhi ho sakta hei. People going through motions of freedom and free thought! Should we expect real democracy in Pakistan within a decade? Surely if people do not feel threatened by the Monologues and all the rest of freedoms then democracy must not be far behind. Abhi Paksitan me democracy ai hi samjho. Wah bhei wah kitni khushi ki bat hei. Pakistani bachcho khade hokar taliyan bajao. Kyunki hamare des me democracy anevali hei.

211/zee

That's I what expect from liberaloon... not from you... only thing worse than killing your own is trying to cover it up with excuses... shame on you... :)

#210 Posted by mohar11,

do americans massacre each other...

Now you're really delusional. Did they hand roses to each other during the civil war? One of the most brutal wars ever?

#209 Posted by mohar11,

30,000 Pakistani soldiers killed a million bengalis? How? Where? Where're they buried? Or were they all dumped in the sea?

The only atrocity by Pak soldiers was in Dacca Uni where a mass grave was found containing a few dozen. Rest were individual acts of troops against the muktis and their sympathisers. This thing about 'a million' is a lie and carefully crafted disinformation.

global players do not have to devour their own... do americans massacre each other...

zee

An who killed a million bengalis?... thousands of balochis?...were the killers muslims or kafirs... ?

Mushy is not a kafir... he is as muslim as you... he has no qualms in killing other muslims because that's what muslims have always done and still doing...

And what "sling" you have put mushy in?... he is still the king, still ruling and will continue for a long time... he will continue to kill fellow muslims on whatever pretext... there ain't nothing you can do about that...

Being emotional will not help... face the facts... stop behaving like a liberaloon...

#207 Posted by mohar11,

Hinuds are not and have never been global players. Muslims have always been that. There's no similarity in their world-views nor are they comparable as a people.

Islam is going through a natural upheaval, and it cannot be without violence. One group will emerge from all this as dominant over the others within Islam.

And for the injustice they have done to their own - present-day hinuds have put in extra-ordinary measures to correct the mistakes and uplift the depressed sections of their population... even though - the measures have fell short of the need... neverhtless...

#204 Posted by mohar11,

First thing you have to understand is that it was musharraf who massacred the school girls, which is why his ass is in a sling and his soldiers being beheaded.

Next, it was musharraf who bombed FATA which is another reason why his ass is in a sling and his soldiers being beheaded.

Get it into your head that it is 'Muslims' who put the kafir musharraf's ass in that sling.

Once musharraf leaves, the killings in Pak will stop (except of the kanjaroons which will be fair because they supported this kanjar and if they still don't got the memo).

Get it now?

zee
[...How many of the christian europeans slaughtered each other...]

My point exactly... compare to that - hinuds have managed much better as a group, relatively speaking... intra-group slaughter has never happened - even though economic and political suppression of caste groups was rampant...

Now - since you are the smart-a## know-all - you tell me: why do muslim have to follow the same path as the european?... Are you incapable of learning from other's mistakes?...

zee

you tell me - why use white phosperous on your own children?... that's the most painful death that can ever happen to any human....

In comparsion - hinuds, bloodthirsty as they are - never used even helicopter gunships in kashmir - even while fighting vicious jihadis... they rarely bombed mosques - even while jihadis were hiding there...

Don't try to be like liberaloon... don't be a hypocrite... :)

#202 Posted by mohar11,

How many of the christian europeans slaughtered each other before they became the EU? Are you so dumb not to understand Islam will follow the same path being 600 years younger?

zee

Haha - repetitive? dude - look around you... this is chowk - everything tha's being said has been already said a million times... :) ....

But in this case - it's necessary to repeat... because this simple fact is not getting thru your surprisingly thick skulls... no other group of people have devoured more of their own than muslims... and yet you pakis complain again and again about everybody else...

So you tell me...

#195 Posted by mohar11,

Why is it you're so repetitive? Are you a parrot?

#198 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

I have a thread for you on UP :)

chaltahai,

Or never mind ... too much googling for you. Just tell me what is the current Echange Rate Regime of China.

nothing is compareable to Lahore Defence or cavalary or Juhartown..whole Asia...

#194 Posted by chaltahai,

Ok. I'll have to seedhafy you over this:

Let's start here first.

That idiot stuka said 'Yuan is pegged to the Dollar'. Is that true or false? Where was the $/Yuan two years ago and where is it now? And why? You didn't know either and have probably googled it after I pointed out the ignorance.

Next, if it is pegged to a basket, what is the composition of that basket? Quote a source. No guesstimates pls.

Thanks

PRADHAN MANTRI GRAM SADAK YOJNA
India is improving or atleast trying to improve its infrastructure
http://www.omms.nic.in/government/security/login/dologin.asp

Ally
[... Hinduism as practiced today is itself flawed majorly, it punishes its own people...]

Very true... hinduism does punish its own people, but apparently not enough to prevent them from leaving the faith, on pain of death, as happens in case of the "peaceful" religion...

Bad as hinudism are - it still devours far less of its own than the peaceful islam... millions of bengalis, thousands of balochis, hundreds are being bombed with all sorts of ammunitions - including white phosperous...[why white phosperous? why not just shoot them?]

muslims are brutalizing each other with gay abandon as in shia-sunni conflict in iraq, iraq-iran, iraq-kurd, kurd-turkey, black-arab in sudan.... the list is endless... the victims are in millions... all muslims killed by other muslims - on some pretext or other - just for being muslim...

Why is that?

Zeemaxx, you are chirping about the Yuan peg to the dollar...Yuan is not a free floating currency. Exchange controls have it pegged to the dollar as the largest percentage of the supposed basket you are touting. At any ostensible level it is a peg...stop acting like an idiot. I thought you knew this stuff.

Secondly, when Dalrymple starts talking about the KSE as a benchmark for financial health of Pakistan..I cannot help but smile at the pride that Pakistanis must feel. An illiquid, opaque, insignificant and fundamentally hollow foundation holding up a shiny veneer for all to admire as they wave from the Islamabad causeway.

Ever wonder why a dirty shithole of a country like India produces world class enterprises. It is because it has strong foundations. Lowest corporate debt-equity ratio of any country in the world. High investment in R&D compared only to Japan and Israelis. Cash rich balance sheets. It was important to have teeth..rather than just porcelain veneers which sure look good, but are flawed fundamentally.

Zee,

New Dehli = Islamabad = Gandhinagar

Dehli = Rawalpindi = Ahmedabad

#191 Posted by Folio,

Yeah I've seen this place. This is the ONLY clean part of New Delhi because it is ceremonial and they bring all visiting foreign guests here. Don't quote picture postcards :)

OK, Zee,

Lets compare Isloo with New Dehli. Check this out.

http://casi.ssc.upenn.edu/upiasi/

Zee, Why u visit slums in Calcutta and Dehli?

Slums are there in all cities. Come to London and walk for 5 mts from glitzy Liverpool street towards Whitechapel.

Whitechapel looks more like a slum with Bengali shops, deras and filth. The whole area smells bad. By the standards of London it's a slum.

At first glance you would think this is Germany. Hell no. This is the M-2/M-1 interchange near Islamabad:

http://www.nespak.com.pk/services/images/3-13.jpg

Faizabad Interchange
This interchange was completed in January 1998 at a cost of Rs. 310 million. Faizabad interchange is a full clover leaf at the intersection of Islamabad-Lahore highway and Rawalpindi-Murree road. The daily traffic volume at this intersection is about 48,000 vehicles. The Faizabad interchange is working as a gateway to the capital of the country by providing free flow to vehicular traffic.

#185 Posted by Folio,

How about Delhi? Calcutta? Is that visiting bharat?

Look at the idiots talking about % of GDP who believe Yuan is still pegged to the Dollar (ROTFL icon).

hey manto..lookie here...another graduate of your educational system is set for life...free meals, free healthcare etc etc..

Padilla guilty of aiding Al-Qaida

MIAMI: US national Jose Padilla was on Thursday found guilty of aiding Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaida terror network and conspiring to commit murder outside the US by attacking US interests.

Zee, Visitng Lahore is not visitng Pakistan and visitng Dharavi is not viting India. Ch*tya.

manto should watch "kyunki ahmedis bhi kabhi muslim the"..will remind him of the good old days, more than 30 years ago, when he was eligible to run for president.

Aman,

Manto is an India & Gandhi obsessed Indophobist. Pardon him. Peace be Upon Him!

Manto, I have never seen saas bhi kabhi bahu thi, why do you!!!!

#178 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 5:10:22 am


Middle class Pakistanis spend as much on education as any Indian... if anything Pakistanis spend more because many middle class Pakistanis are increasingly taking O Level and IB examinations... something which was the exclusive preserve of the rich in the past.


To compare the education systems of the two countries is a joke only a deluded paki can play on himself. YOu tried really really hard to close the phd gap with a get-a-phd-quick scheme. Didn't work out too well. You only need to look at the number of Indians and the number of Pakis in masters and Phd courses in the US to see whose students are in demand. That's even before the Indian grads go on to be a lot more successful.

You're way ahead in jihadi education while the world looks to the IITs as a model for what a third world education can be.

India: IITs
Pakistan: IITs(Institutes of Islamic Terrorism)

No amount of lipstick will make that pig look like cameron diaz..

p.s. Do you know what % of GDP India and Pakiland spend on education? Now compare that % with what they spend on the military.

#174 Posted by tahmed32,

It is quite interesting many Pakistanis on Chowk have visited Bharat, but on the other side only DM seems to have done so.

And still the Pakistanis would rather discuss other stuff than the heap of garbage they have seen with their own eyes which is bharat, while the bhartis always have a fire lit beneath their behinds without knowing shyte about how different Pakistan is :)

where is echoboom? I'm sure he'll love this line...

Beginning of 61st year of slavery of slaves

Abid Ullah Jan

Dictator Gen. Pervez Musharraf and minion Shaukat Aziz, in speeches and appearances celebrating the milestone, praised Pakistan’s emergence as a Muslim nation with an important international role, but warned its people they must not succumb to extremism in response to their policies. They renewed vows not to let any nation publicly violate Pakistan’s sovereignty - doesn’t matter if they do so without announcing it as they have been doing since October 7, 2001 war on Afghanistan.

Every Pakistani must realise that they are slaves of the slaves. Of course this is not what a Pakistani would like to hear as they wrap the green flag around themselves and fly it high on their cars and homes, but it is the unpleasant truth that we all face going into the next year of our chequered existence under indirect occupation - de facto colonization, which has been more fruitful for the modern day colonialists than the past. We are not bound by chains and beaten with whips, yet that hardly matters.

Slaves remain slaves irrespective of the more or less cruel treatment they receive from their masters of the chosen slaves of their masters.
Setting aside the stereotyped image of a slave as a bleeding chain-bound wretch, slaves like Pakistanis, are often hard to recognize. It has been like this throughout history. In some cases, such as the Medieval Serfs, they were held slaves to the rulers by religious belief.

tahmed,

Amansandhu's argument is pathetic. One only has to compare the general populations of Pakistan and India to discover who is more materialistic. I mean only a sick materialistic society like India can produce soaps like Kiyunki saas bhee kabhee bahu thee...

Just imagine the dialogues...

"Panch so crore de do. Panch so crore ki company khareed lo"

You won't find such dialogues in Pakistani dramas.

Middle class Pakistanis spend as much on education as any Indian... if anything Pakistanis spend more because many middle class Pakistanis are increasingly taking O Level and IB examinations... something which was the exclusive preserve of the rich in the past.

Good day, master arjun. How are we feeling today? Feel like giving some more english lessons to us uneducated Pakis, pliss? Or sharing some more important information with us, like how there are no Pakistani professors in US universities?

#154 Posted by okhla99 on August 18, 2007 12:46:44 am



Why don't we concentrate on our own weaknesses


You "weakness", the fact that you ground zero for the islamic terrorism infecting the whole world, is everyone's problem...

from subway users in london to users of the holland tunnel..

amansandhu: so frivolous Pakistanis just spend all they have without bothering to educate themselves, while pious hindus focus on education?

dil behlaaney ko Aman bibi,
yeh khyaal achha hai!

:-)

naqshbandi: please dont be angry at jayp. feel pity for him. for 8 years he has dedicated himself to predicting the demise of Pakistan and writing thousands of posts on how bad things are in Pakistan. 8 years later, here comes this Pakistani agent Dalrymple and says what Pakistanis and some deluded Indians like Dost Mittar (who have actually visited Pakistan, unlike jayp and other Indian experts on Pakistan on chowk) have sometimes tried to gently (at least in case of DM) say.

So, please be pitiful of jayp. Donate money for research on the mental sickness called Pakistanphobia that seems to afflict so many unfortunate souls in India. Or in lieu thereof, send flowers to the Thakeray Institute for Ageing Hindutvas. Thanks in advance for your kindness. :-)

anil #: one item i forgot....

i think india, pakistan, bangladesh, sri lanka (and perhaps philippines) should form an organization like OPEC, called MPEC - Manpower Producing and Exporting Countries....

......this may sound funny, but it requires some consideration.......the biggest shortage in the coming years will be oil, gas etc........however, what will be the second biggest shortage....it will be manpower....skilled and unskilled.....

the population of the world is going to reach its highest point around 2070(?)....after which it will decline....even now, the only area where the population is increasing in huge amounts is south asia, with china actually declining......

manpower is already a big export market.....however, it is not controlled by the exporting nations, like oil and gas is.....if there were a cartel of manpower exporters, they could control a very important aspect of the international market.....

as an example, the middle east gcc - main oil producers of th world - would simply collapse if every south asian worker were to walk out.......not only for the skilled market, but for the unskilled as well.......in fact, their retail markets would collapse......50% of the population of uae is south asian......there would be no one to spend money in any of the shops and hotel, not to mention build the shops and hotel.....

the world's oil industry would go into turblunce, if the manpower of these countries disappeared.....

at the moment, the countries importing the manpower dictate terms to the exporters, as the import happens at an individual level.......if it were done as a cartel, the exporters would dictate the terms.....

infact, manpower export, though so important, must be one of the only industries in the world, where the importer dictates to the exporter........

Allah send his mercy on Qaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and on Allama Muhammad Iqbal for creating this country! amin.

even till this day tens of thousands of hindus convert to islam (and christianity) yearly to escape the inhumanity of the caste system which treats them worse than animals.

low caste hindus have been killed before because their shadow fell on the brahmin temple thereby polluting it and then people ask, 'pakistan kyun banaana zaroori tha?'

btw the awqaat comment was aimed at people like jayp only not hindus in general.

zee bhai,

the difference is that between the state doing something and vigilantes doing something; if an individual kills someone it is murder but if the state sentences someone to death it is not murder.

i obviously do dua that the problem of the parasitical feudals can be solved peacefully but i somehow get the feeling that these people only understand the language of the danda just like uppity hinood such as jayp!

since they've become azaad they've forgotten their awqaat although they spent the previous millenia cleaning the tatti of various people who ruled them.

having said that most people i hope are not like jayp but the stories about hindus and muslims not letting each other share water from same cup are true. they consider us muslims to be maleecha and for us they are naapaak kaafirs. this is a basic fact which people on both sides have to accept. luckily for millions of them the muslim saints,because of the mercy inherent in traditional islam, were approachable and treated them as humans and millions converted.

still we can work together and let each other live in harmony.

pakistan zindabad!

Folio,

I did admit that and provided the root cause of it, to teh religion, one cannot be more forth right than that.

Infrastructure of the mind,

Pkakistanis claim their superior infrastructure of the cities, their better airports, but at the end of the day, no one is coming to pakistan because of the terror stigma.

Take the example of the policies of pakistan. Wheat prices are going up, the poor are affected, no one wants to ban export of wheat, which would have happened in india.

Textles, well 70 percent of pak textile finished products are exported while millions of tons of second hand clothes are imported stymying the domestic production,

Again the case of cars, second hand cars are imported, killing the domestic industry. Hyundai exported 400,000 cars last year from India.

Take the case seizing of the foreign exchange remittacess by the govt following the bomb. No one India would have done that, rather India went in for the resurgent India bonds when indians pouyred 7 billion to help India

All of the above are being done not by the poor of pakistan, by the educated, mostly foreign educated of pakistan advicing the govt.

Pak problem is not education, it is the warped minds of the educated so well displayed on chowk. YLH is a prime example of this, with his tirade against Gandhi. It is a waste of time and energy, especially when the world has recognised Oct 2 as the day of peace honouring Gandhi, even pakistan did not oppose that day at teh UN.

Jayp,

Why it's difficult to admit our shortcomings (poor hygeine in public places)?

Cleanliness and infrastructure, some facts

Hinduism has no social concepts, it is each mans search for nirvana. There is a lot of importance for personal hygiene, but not that of the surroundings. It is common for high caste hindus to send their children to defecate on the road outside so that their homes are clean. The rubbish outside is viewed as the government problem and not that of the individuals.

There has been not much investment in infrastructure simply because of the lower returns. It is only in the last decade that toll roads have come into being in India. Further toll roads makes sense only when there are so many private cars, when most of the trafic on teh road is buses and trucks and carts, tolls have no meaning, and hence cannot attract private investments because of no returns.

In the initial years govt investments have been in education and indutry. The so called public sector has provided tremendous training for the indians and for a long time creating employement was the intent of the public sector.

Now they are all being pruned back, and privatised. When there is shortage of resources in th early years, one has to spend money wisely. Here is a south indian saying

" if you are planning for next year plant rice, if you are planning for ten years plant coconut trees, if you are planning for 25 years educate your children"

Very tru for india and pakistan. Indians educated them in schools and india is an IT power, Pakistan educated then in madrassas and they are now a jihadic power.

Time will tell which is better. Pak jihadic army sweeping through Europe in teh traditions of zengis khan, well pakistanis will have the last laugh.

Ranjit,
Indians have money, but the priorties are different from Pakistan. A middle class and lower middle class parent will spend savings on giving their child a good education, they are investing in the kids future, then say renovate their house. In Punjab the attitude is there, to eat well and live well, and you will see houses like villas and flashy cars etc. Ludhiana has the most number of Mercs in India, the people are filthy rich, but Ludhiana in the last decade has become dirtier. People do crib and swear but do nothing about it. The public accepts all the dirt and filth unquestioningly. The municipial cooperation is not held accountable. How may citizens take interest in the Mc elections, hardly any. You need people with vision and not those whose sole purpose is to line their pockets. In the Ludhiana MC elections recently , almost 60 of the contenders were illiterate or criminals.

#151 Posted by HP on August 17, 2007 11:47:42 pm

Ur half knowledge abt India is showing up. In 90s India established a fully automated container port nr Bombay (Uran) called Nhava Sheva.

============

Mr. Dalrmyple VISITS Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi and may be Peshawer but he LIVES in Dehli. THAT's the difference.

So as a resident of Dehli he finds it not up to the hype he reads abt India.

Ranjit,
Indians have money, but the priorties are different from Pakistan. A middle class and lower middle class parent will spend savings on giving their child a good education, they are investing in the kids future, then say renovate their house. In Punjab the attitude is there, to eat well and live well, and you will see houses like villas and flashy cars etc. Ludhiana has the most number of Mercs in India, the people are filthy rich, but Ludhiana in the last decade has become dirtier. People do crib and swear but do nothing about it. The public accepts all the dirt and filth unquestioningly. The municipial cooperation is not held accountable. How may citizens take interest in the Mc elections, hardly any. You need people with vision and not those whose sole purpose is to line their pockets. In the Ludhiana MC elections recently , almost 60 of the contenders were illiterate or criminals.

anil #123: "You must present this blueprint to Prime Minister's Office in Islamabad......I do believe decline of nation-state in favor of regional economic blocks."

...i am not too popular within the military, so they will never listen to me......i do know some people amongst politicians, so they would listen to me, perhaps.....however, you really have to see the pakistani political landscape to believe it.....

.....pakistan's political system is like an infant....there are no structures, policy-making groups, procedures amongst political parties.....its just nawaz, bb, imran etc. doing what they want to and think they should do.....e.g. the whole future of the country is being decided by single living room meetings between bb and musharraf, with no participation even from their closest colleagues.....the only parties with some structure are mqm and jamaat-e-islami.....but they have other problems.......

......most of all, all these politicians are so scared of the army, it isn't even funny.....every third politician i met (and i am not exagerating) told me how he had been physically beaten up by the army and/or jailed.....so pakistan's policy making structure is in shambles.....this is why there is, always, so much economic growth when the army takes over....businessmen see policy stability, for a decade; even if it destroys political stability......

where the action is in pakistan is in the private sector...and everything i have expressed in my reply below, will be expressed to you by any senior private sector person in pakistan.......these guys, now, regularly go to india......and to china.....and have always been going to the middle east and europe and north america.......i am sure shaukut aziz understands all this, much better than i do......he is the father of pakistan's current economic turnaround, for which musharraf, incorrectly, gets credit....

however, for some reason, shaukut aziz, has been seduced by the lustful charms of political power....pakistan lost an excellent finance minister and gained a poor prime minsiter, when he decided to move up......

you had earlier asked about pakistan's IT industry......there is nothing there, worthwhile......where the action is, is the banking, telecom, real estate and media industries......people are leaving north america and middle east to come work in these industries in pakistan at gigantic salaries......and these industries and in the loop, both in south asia and internationally......

.......as an example, hbl - the largest private bank in pakistan - is owned by the agha khan, who also owns a bank in india.....so this crowd is regularly in india and works jointly......similarly, other banks, telecom etc. are tuned into india through their parent companies....

.....the trouble is the government....not because of beuracracy, but because of its instability, and the terrible level of leadership available there......one only has to read the commentary of musharraf, nowdays, to realize that he has become psychologically unstable......the other is the power of the army as whole, and the lack of ability and credibility of any politician to take it on....

as for south asia becoming block of economic states......i think it is bound to happen.....however, it will happen internally first........south asia has only been one country for 200 out of its 5000 year history.......even now it is three.....it will soon federate or break up into its historical norm of smaller states, which will exist in a union like europe......economic growth in south asia is never going to be uniform, and it will not suit the richer states to remain with the poorer ones in india, other than for foreign policy......

in pakistan, the opposite will happen.....it was about to happen in 1971.......the smaller sates will rebel against the domination of punjab, and in a civilian political setup will demand their autonomy.......

the above i believe is the best way of existence for south asia.....as a conglemerate of loosely federated states, within a common economic block.......this is how it existed before ashoka, then he united it, then after ashoka till the british, who then united it, and will go back to in the coming centuries.......

Re:HP
"It is the responsibility of the elected government to prioritize what people need"

That is exactly right and that is what the Indian government does as well. People in India give a high priority to education, jobs, business investment etc and the government delivers fairly well on that. People just do not care about infrastructure, sanitation, hygiene etc to that extent. That attitude reflects in the government's lackadaisical attitude towards it as well.

People do not relate the investment in infrastructure to the increased prosperity that it will bring. Wider roads, seaports, 24 hour electricity/water are still viewed as a luxury rather than basic rights. Even highly educated people will say that we need populist programs to give free rice to people or give a free meal to kids, rather than demand top notch infrastructure. The Communists like the CPM party view infrastructure demands as a criminal act of the rich asking for luxury items. For example, they are hell bent against modernising Indian airports, when the domestic airport in Delhi looks virtually like a third class railway station platform. This inherent resistance to investment in these sectors gets manifested in all kinds of dirty politics against such moves, which is why the government fails to deliver on it as well.

Re:amansandhu
"In Chandigarh, which is a fairly clean city, backlanes were made for collection of rubbish, the MC does not collect rubbish for days"

Aman, there is a fundamental problem among Indians regarding collective cleanliness, hygiene, sanitation and being careless about infrastructure investment. Its a really low priority for us and most of us do not care until someone compares us to Pakistan. For some reason, we tend to relate such attributes as being "flashy" and have a weird guilt complex about it. While most Indians give very high priority to education, employment, financial success etc., they just dont care about living properly.

Its not about money but about attitudes and priorities. Just look at the "Indian towns" in the west like Devon Street in Chicago or Jackson Heights in New York. Even there we see the same symptoms emerge. The Patel brothers grocery store owner is probably some very wealthy dude. Yet his desi grocery store would have a 30 year old look, shabby presentation, weird smells of masalas, dirty floors, dirty walls etc. His goods would be of high quality and desis will come and shop there. But the customers dont care that the establishment looks like a dump as compared to the regular American grocery supermaket with its swanky interiors, bright lighting, everything clean and nicely organized. When the owner and the customer both do not care, we end up with a Patel borthers type grocery store. Any westerner visiting it will think that Indians are poor people, when the reality is that both the owner and the customers are significantly wealthy by American standards. The same substandard look and feel is visible in pretty much most stores and businesses in "Indian towns", so anyone visiting these neighborhoods will walk away thinking that Indians are poor people. Just take that and multiply it by a million times all over back home and you can see why India looks like the way it does.

The sad part is that it doesnt have to be that way. We are not a poor people any more but our mindset is still stuck from the days when we were dirt poor. Its all about needless frugality that makes us look shabby for no reason. We got to celebrate our success and spend more to earn even more. It will take many generations for Indians to develop that level of confidence.

#126 tahmed32

Point well taken. I guess I got carried away with IITs, IIMs etc. :)

Regards.

#155 Posted by HP

[One more nonsensical argument presented here is that since India is a democracy everything takes time. That is the most ridiculous thing to say.]

Let me think about this....Ummmmmmm..hmmmmm ummmmmm.....

By God! You are right!

Thanks... Er, do you eat a lot of fish?

As I said, HP, you left too because your country sucked.

One more nonsensical argument presented here is that since India is a democracy everything takes time. That is the most ridiculous thing to say.

The first priority for a democracy is to take care of its voters and develop resources for their benefits, more jobs, more industry and more roads for the movement of commodities. If a democracy fails to do that, then there is some serious flaws in the democracy.

In the 70s, Bhutto was PM and he used to have Khuli Katchery with people all over Pakistan in small villages. In Sindh, he would ask people, "how could he help them?" and invariably a majority of people would say, "Sian Assan ji laiy hitay hikarRy Sarak tahria chadoo" (Please build a road for us.)
He built more road in Sindh in five years than all military governments put together in forty years.

It is the responsibility of the elected government to prioritize what people need. Military governments never do that.

Recently, in Karachi there was a power shortage. People of Karachi came out and spoke their mind on the issue and I am sure they will not have this problem next year. But look at the Indian society. How many Indians come out when power shortages hit their cities and towns?

People living in a democracy need to have some civic sense. Some understanding of what their rights are...But Indians only talk....

face it ,tat country sucked so we left.

The new Chowk is the same old Chowk.
All the Pakistanis are busy telling Indians how their country (and its IT companies) sucks.
All the Indians are gloating at Pakistans internal problems. Why don't we concentrate on our own weaknesses and start to acknowledge (may be emulate or at least learn from) each other's strengths?

#138 Posted by nb on August 17, 2007 7:18:27 pm

"HP, I presume you left Pakistan because it was too good for you?? "

nb,

Why is it always personal with you? first I quoted what Indians wrote at an Indian site, Rediff. Second, I had as good and in some ways, better life in Pakistan. Here I worked for what I have. I might not had this experience in Pakistan. Different strokes for different folks.

I am also amused at the idea that basically says that Indian companies are not capable of building infrastructure and only “foreign companies� can do this. This is from the people who spent millions of hours shouting from the top of their lungs that India has top class engineering education, plenty of billionaires and some top notch companies too that are taking over the world.

What good is all that when those companies cannot and will not invest in developing some top notch engineering firms in India? What good are those engineers who cannot be trusted to supervise quality construction and finally what good are those billionaires that fail to invest in their own countries?

Recently, three big houses from India invested billions of dollars in buying industry outside of India. The irony is that they used their Indian assets to borrow money in the international market to invest outside of India. They pledged the future of India to buy assets that will not bring a single dollar of profit to India.

Indian industrialist is looking more and more to invest outside of India. Even the technology companies are beginning to take funds out of India. The Top three tech companies are now hiring in the US paying more than thrice of what they were paying to Indian to some nikama (bum) out of work, American coders so that they could have a white face in the US.

face it ,tat country sucked so we left.

The truth is India has no money to invest in infrastructure and it is begging all over the world for FDI. The estimate of $150 billion is hogwash. Indian infrastructure needs way, way more than that. We are practically looking at building not only the airports but pretty much all sea ports.
India has not built a single port of the size of Gwadar since Independence. They have only invested what is necessary to keep the current seaports from the British era going.

One joker wrote that India has money for the infrastructure and here is the Indian minister saying India has no money.
“How do we find money?�

Address by Shri Kamal Nath, Hon'ble Minister of Commerce and Industry, Government of India

http://www.ficci.com/media-room/speeches-presentations/2005/march/march 28-
infrastructure.htm

“The investment requirements of the economy are huge. The Prime Minister himself has indicated that the country needs FDI for infrastructure to the extent of 150 billion dollars over the next five years. It is estimated that an additional capacity of 100,000 MW would be required to be installed in the next 10 years. Notwithstanding the spectacular growth in the telecom sector, tele-density continues to be less than 10, and to reach the tele-density level of 25 by 2007, the sector needs investment 20 billion dollars. Airports Authority of India has set a target of investing 1 billion dollars for modernization of airports. The investment requirements in the maritime sector are estimated at 22 billion dollars.
How do we find finances? Taxing people more and then routing it to projects has its limits. I am sure that in this conference, experts would delve upon these issues. How do we attract big-ticket investments into infrastructure sectors? As a society we need to find answers to these questions. “

And the Indian society still can't find those answers. It may take another five years to just find the answers...

This is a good article and would rightfully make most Pakistanis happy and proud of what they are achieving. But on one level, it's also irrelevant. That the good things that are happening in Pakistan are underreported is more of a reflection on the stupid policies that various Pakistani governments have pursued since independence rather than any real bias on the part of the West. Overt and covert support of jihadis and Islamists, actively supporting secessionist movements in neighbouring countries, a blatant disregard for human rights and democratic norms, etc. are only some of these policies.
What the subcontinent needs are two confident nations interacting adult-to-adult, rather than, as it exists today, an insecure sullen Pakistan trying to live down its idiot little brother image and playing a never-ending game of catch-up with the favourite son India. I say more power to Pakistan; the better you guys do economically, the less time you have to wage silly wars and waste time over non-issues like Kashmir and Siachen.

why all idians are shouting about poverty and slum of delhi and mumbai...

why you all indians dont tell the sarkar tyhat why it spend 68% on Defence,,,,,

why this money is not for poor people of india....


due to your 68% ..pakistan also have to spend a lot of on Defence...

why you all indians are mad ..on accumulating arms....

and for whom....

why you not resist against your Warriors government...

why are they crazy ..in destroying others...


solution is very simple....
stop accumulating arms..and weapons ..in india...
use this money for poor people of india...

i dont know why indians are in mental disorder of spending too much on defence


i mean to say.....india cannot reach the foot level of China

regarding sri Lanka..Bhutan..Nepal..and Bangla Desh etc...they are just small country ..so no comparison with India...

and regarding pakistan..again i say....

Pakistan is a nuclear missile power....

are indians are collecting arms against pakistan....






I mean to say....


you can give a threat as a "super power " to bangla desh bhutan





but do you think that by collecting arms....

you can give a threat to pakistan

67 Posted by Cobra on August 17, 2007 10:05:20 am
#62, well said,

You should have seen the south Indian cities before and our Konkan area even now. It is much more cleaner that most of the places in North India.
Unfortunately not any more. These folks have flocked down in our cities and villages. Now our cities are over crowded, dirty and filthy.

True,
The cities in Punjab were cleaner a deacade ago, Migrants Bangla Desh, UP, Bihar and Bengal are taking a toll on the cities.
A friend from abroad said they keep the houses so clean, the gardens too, but the country , mainly the smaller towns ,are a one big dustbin for everyone.
In Chandigarh, which is a fairly clean city, backlanes were made for collection of rubbish, the MC does not collect rubbish for days. Citizens now hire private kachrawallas to to pick up rubbish

On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity.There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.

Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centres and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million.

Mohsin Hamid, author of the Booker long-listed novel The Reluctant Fundamentalist, wrote about this change after a recent visit: having lived abroad as a banker in New York and London, he returned home to find the country unrecognisable. He was particularly struck by "the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programmes, independent news networks, cross-dressing talkshow hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis".

I knew, of course, that the government of Pervez Musharraf had opened the media to private operators. But I had not until then realised how profoundly things had changed. Not just television, but private radio stations and newspapers have also flourished in Pakistan over the past few years. The result is an unprecedented openness. Young people are speaking and dressing differently. Views both critical and supportive of the government are voiced with breathtaking frankness in an atmosphere remarkably lacking in censorship. Public space, the common area for culture and expression that had been so circumscribed in my childhood, has now been vastly expanded. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

things

Another thread with Injuns gone wild.

The issue is of branding. Anyone who visits Pakistan will see the obvious: Pakistan is better than India in most thing.

Unfortunately ... there is no branding. Hence no one visits. I say its their loss not ours.

Ranjit,
#62,
These parasites, the left parties etc have a vested agenda in keeping the country backward. Also the babus have yet to come out of their socialist mindset.When New Delhi airport was made, the bid was given to the company qoututing the lowest rate,not best facilities etc.
I was in New Dehi airport in July, there is a visible change, the smell is gone, there are new chairs, new carpets, good phone service new shops etc with the new airport coming up by 2010, and thankfully being built by a foreign company we, will have a world class airport.

There ate flyovers all over delhi and on the highway to Chandigarh, some poorly made, surely a private firm could have done a better job. The flyovers take ages to make causing great inconvenience to the public. International companies can put up pre-fabricated bridges in 2-3 months.

#140 madani: I hope chinese enjoy our warm blankets and fine basmati rice. Hope they dont enjoy it so much that they want more, because what will our people do in winter if they take away our blankets?

#140 madani: I hope you have given the matter of Musharraf some thought, and realized that democracy is better than military rule.

#137 Same negative minded individuals acting superior because they got visas to the west on rediff as on chowk. What they dont realize is that the cesspool is in their heads, not in India or Pakistan. And by mocking poverty and other difficult conditions in India (as the same lot does about Pakistan on chowk), they merely reveal the poverty inside their own heads.

Friend in need is friend indeed.
Long live sinopakistani friendship.
If indians bahave they can get friends also.
"Pakistan sends relief supplies for China floods ISLAMABAD, Aug 17(AFP): Pakistan on Friday despatched relief supplies including rice and tents to China for victims of devastating floods there that have killed more than 500 people, the foreign ministry said. A plane carrying 150 tents, 1,000 blankets, five tonnes of rice and 200,000 water purifying tablets had left for the northwestern Chinese city of Urumqi, a ministry statement said. (Posted @ 16:00 PST)"

Re: # 138
Pakistanies do not leave country as it is hard here but in foreign better opportunities.

HP, I presume you left Pakistan because it was too good for you??

Rediff is one hell of site. Here are some gems that I discovered today!
The article
What are you doing for India?
http://www.rediff.com/india60/2007/aug/17india.htm

Read some responses:
The article’s title should have been:
face it ,tat country sucked so we left

hey rajesh the very fact we lve in america says so much bout our intent to contribute ,now dnt talk bout the dollars we send home to our families ,face it ,tat country sucked so we left

RE:when
by ashish on Aug 18, 2007 03:32 AM
i wudnt want my kids to live there ever ,so if u want go ahead cause tat rat hole will never change ,get real

RE:when
by ashish on Aug 18, 2007 05:29 AM
im no hyppocrite mr on ,if wat i said wasnt tue then all the millions of people knockin at us and uk embassies to migrate shud make my point more clear ,no my mum is cool dont worry ,at least i havnt left her and run away ,she in america too relax

by BRIGHTMORNINGSTAR on Aug 18, 2007 05:17 AM
You are right Avinash. But minor correction. India does not rock. Most part of India is still in stone ages. watch TV . Hundreds of thousands swimming right now in Bihar . BJP ministers held special prayers for the death of Manmohan Singh. MODI continue to kill innocents, Govt of karnataka decided not to give land to IT companies in Bangalore, Chikken GUNYA is kiling dozens every day in kerala from last 6 months and no one has a clue what is the cause / remedy. India rocks in your bloody dreams


face it ,tat country sucked so we left

Now this guy really knows India
“We don;t need to do any thing for India. we love india but Indian structure suck.
I am glad i m not living india coz India is for muslim and backward cast.
There is nothing for common educated Hindu.
Hetal Patel.�
And the agreement
“RE:I am proud to be not living in india.
by INDIAN on Aug 18, 2007 01:29 AM
Ya I agreed, 20% population running the Government. All decision are always taken in Favour of second largest majority of India.�

face it ,tat country sucked so we left

Re: # 122
DrDr, have you finally been pinned down as a Pakistani after years of being coy and enigmatic?

seriously..who are you guys fooling...

Pakiland says 200% sure US won't attack...huh? what about damadola and bajaur and other places?

Pakiland angry that US selected Bhutto...huh? you were unaware of your canine status?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007/08/18/story_18-8-2 007_pg1_7

US deal-brokering reports draw anger

ISLAMABAD: The US was accused on Friday of meddling in Pakistani affairs amid reports that Washington is trying to broker a power-sharing deal between President Pervez Musharraf and his archrival Benazir Bhutto.

Sources in both government and opposition denounced reports that Washington was pressuring military ruler General Musharraf to come to an arrangement with two-time former prime minister Bhutto ahead of national elections.

A government spokesman said the choice of national leader lay with the people of Pakistan and should depend on the vote. “Pre-judging the mandate of the people of Pakistan is an insult to the electorate,� Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azeem said.

In a report on Thursday, the New York Times had said that the US was discussing reforms with key political players in Pakistan amid reported plans to get Musharraf to share power with Bhutto. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice discussed the power-sharing arrangement in a telephone call to President Musharraf last week, the newspaper said, quoting American and Pakistani officials.

Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) leader Liaqat Baloch said Musharraf sought to stay in power “at any cost� and had allowed US influence in Pakistani political and military affairs to escalate to unprecedented levels.

Senior Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leader Raja Zafarul Haq said the reports showed how Pakistan’s sovereignty had been undermined during Musharraf’s eight-year “dictatorship�.

“What the US wants to see is a peaceful, prosperous, secure, stable Pakistan – that’s in the interests of the Pakistanis, the interests of the region, and interests of the whole world,� National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. “We want to see a moderate political centre form there, following democratic processes.�

#37 Posted by echoboom on August 17, 2007 8:05:26 am

====
Laakhh Laanut on the Westernism...AaaakHHHH Thhhhhhhooo!
====

Birth is an accident. You cud have been born to a typical ooon family in an Akhthooo western country.

Escho Sir, What is this? U are a well read, sophisticated person. If a gora like Mr.Dalrymple writes 4 us then it's great but a brown man write for them it's laanut?

Give us some perspective on this. phlz!

Re: # 73
Zeemax, this is my soap box, please give it back to me. I find the dirt and lack of basic hygiene in a lot of India really heart-breaking. Having workied in Dharavi, let me tell you Muslims who live there-and throughout India- are as fatalistic as anyone else. The problem is, they all feel they cannot complain because there is someone "worser" off, as my friend's 6 year old would say. I maintain it comes from generations of poverty, not from a religion.

pakis: tell me something..are ya'all stupid or is it that he think you are stupid? maybe he thinks he can say anything he wants because you can't do anything about it...?


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007/08/18/story_18-8- 2007_pg1_1

Pakistan needs me: Musharraf

President says war on terrorism not being fought under foreign pressure

mmmmkay....

#125 Posted by HisExcellency on August 17, 2007 4:25:52 pm


Many whites turned out in great numbers to show their solidarity


They were probably undercover anti-terrorist MI5 operatives...what better place to monitor terrorists than a parade for jihadis'r'us?

Anil Bhai,

[Sometimes my RSS upbring show through :)]That was in jest yaar. Trying to pull your legs. Don't take it seriously.

#120 Posted by Cobra on August 17, 2007 2:51:12 pm


Petroleum reserves are in Central Asia and Siberia.


yes..but what cartographically challenged pakis don't know is that the reserves are not in a place where they can be easily piped through the land of the pure..

Re: # 124

Cobra sahib:

Get lost is what comes to my mind.

If Akhand Bharat is all that you can think, your figment of imagination is very stale. Your sense of smell is all dead, and therefore, I cannot even say smell the coffee.

The world has moved way beyond your thinking.

Bulleya:116

You excitement, your optimism almost a pollyana seems contagious...and dangerously so.

While admiring the creative streak in you, please remember that the Pre-1857, pre-1757, ANDS pre-1657 little by little everything was being outsourced to the company...and the company had guns & ammunition & technology to enforce its "writ" all over the land.

If one cannot defend oneself, outsourcing is the first step towards leaving the palace affairs to the servants..litlle by little servants start dictating when, why, & where the Master spends his days.

In fact allowing the chowkidaaars, the cantonment Kuttaas, to manage our affairs is one key reason for our decline. Sometimes "OUT"-sourcing is done "inside" also.

THre is an old classic "The Servant" with Dirk Bogard..excellent movie by all counts..and there is a lesson in it for all..though it is addressed to the British aristocracy as to why the empire fell ( very subtly..no empire scenes there..it is NOT a historical movie)

Rafia #108: "Pakistan is a beautiful country;with resilient and talented people." Yes indeed. And these people make up for the poor government. And like you, I too know that Pakistan will keep moving forward.

Pardesi #104: It is not mere glitter, rest assured. And on education, one significant point the writer missed is non-government schools. NGO and other private schools have flourished in Pakistan through private efforts. In fact, the big change in Pakistan over the past 20 years is that even in the remotest parts of Pakistan people have become aware of the importance of education. So, it is not mere glitter in Pakistan.

{{Amid all the hoopla surrounding the 60th anniversary of Indian independence, almost nothing has been heard from Pakistan, which turns 60 today}}

Bill, no offense but that is plain stupid!

There was actually a grand Pakistan Day parade in London followed by a well-attended concert in which several Pakistani musicians including Ali Zafar, Najam Shiraz and Hadiqa Kiyani mesmerized audiences with patriotic and pop numbers. There were of course celebrations across Pakistan, but this London celebration was all the more epochal because this is where British citizens of Pakistani descent blew up the underground in July 2005. Many whites turned out in great numbers to show their solidarity with the real Pakistan. The entire ceremony was televised live on Geo TV.

Next time, please take your blinkers off before writing gibberish like this.

#123,

"I do believe decline of nation-state in favor of regional economic blocks. "

Are you harboring the dreams of Akhand Bharat under the guise ;)

Re: # 116

Romair:

You must present this blueprint to Prime Minister's Office in Islamabad. Even Arjun could only find issues with #4, something that may no longer an issue after such an integration of economies take place. This will require radical thinking in terms of economy in Islamabad. Even though historically, that part of South Asia played similar roles - food bowl, cross roads and military resource.

You can quantify each of the points in terms of contribution to GDP. I do believe decline of nation-state in favor of regional economic blocks.

haha arjun what happened 2 u - r u chikin - go ahead name this other country - dont mind zina
btw did u c the front page story in nyt a few months back abt this woman who refuses 2 sell her house & there is development all around her & shes counting on the publicity 2 keep the governments paws off her - this was china in case u r wondering
i hear injun pols can do whatever they want - y not the gummit

does the 'poor' neighbor here refer 2 inja

Re # 98

Cobra:

These are outlandish, and certainly out of the box at the very least.

Separation of power is a big problem, military keeps coming in civilian pants or whatever else.

Punjabi muslims and Pathans have a highly respected martial history, and probably get restless if their fighting machinery is not well oiled and frequently exercised.

Arjun,

Petroleum reserves are in Central Asia and Siberia. If not from Afghanistan they can come through Iran.

#116 Posted by bulleya on August 17, 2007 2:24:08 pm


4. give india access to the pipeline network through pakistan to iran and central asia


Captain clueless...I know pakis are cartographically challenged but even you should be able to pull up a resource map of central asia to see where the real reserves of gas are and how far those areas are from the land of the pure..

there's also this other pesky problem of a sovereign country of afghanistan..now that your buddies the talibunnies don't control afghanistan, aren't you presuming they'll look favorably to the land of the pure sending islamic terrorists into their country...

#109 Posted by ajeya on August 17, 2007 1:52:53 pm


India has the money and the resources to build new airports, get rid of slums like Dharavi, and improve visible signs of prosperity.


India has more than enough money. There are some things a democracy can and can't do. Let me give you an example. The mumbai municipality wanted to widen the the road opposite my grandparents lane in a central part of bombay. Everybody else took the buyout offer for the land for the road widening. One chawl held out for more than 7 years. The government doesn't have the right of eminent domain like it does here. The chawl residents were promised flats in the new buildings but they didn't want to deal with the higher monthly upkeep costs. In China, 2 people from the chawl's "samiti" would have been shot and the road work would start the next day. Such things are not possible in India.

Unlike China, India can't pass a law preventing people from outside bombay coming into bombay to make a living. With land costs being what they are, the migrants have no choice but to live in dharavi.

India has good reason to be proud of the educational system and now the increasingly entrepreneurial culture that's an integral part of Indian society. Now there are people(and they know who they are) who will tell you that an educational system is no big deal but as the experience of other countries in the neighborhood shows, you can't build an educational system overnight and go from madrassahs to IITs. The other countries even tried to come up with a program to fill the phd gap with India..chalk that up to neighbor's envy...that, of course, didn't go so well...

This other country: In 1998, I heard an inteview by one of it's minister's mocking the ambassador car he saw in India. Less than 10 years since, India makes and exports cars and Chennai is a major automobile hub...Now this other country: it just assembles CKD and SKD kits..oh..it also has an indigenous car called the maybe..as in maybe it's a car maybe it's a golf cart...

115 Jang,

Thanks. Excellent effort.

anil #97:....your idea about outsourcing the military is interesting......it is incorrect in the way you have presented it, however, it is accurate, and has been, in another manner.......

pakistan has been sending out thousands of soldiers to the middle east and has built their militaries....this, and not land, is how pakistani military officers used to make their money......land only goes to the very senior officers....

following are some steps that i would take, at a strategic level, if someone was to ask me:

1. build gwadar to its fullest capability, connect it to china, make it a totally free port, and build it out like dubai.....and take control of the strait of hormuz and all the oil flowing through it.....it will pay pakistan government's bills, jsut by itself......just like rumor has it that the dubai airport pays dubai's govt's bill just on its own......

2. open the punjab borders with india, for trade and tourism, and allow indiain punjabis free access to pakistan's punjab, and then extend it out to the rest of india, slowly......

3. build a city called, "new lahore" on the border of india and pakistan, next to lahore......make it the trade center of india and pakistan......allow indian companies to own land and build offices there......it will quickly become the biggest city west of delhi and will dwarf gurgaon and chandigarh etc......connect this to gwadar, as well, and make it a centerpoint of indian trade to the gulf.....

4. give india access to the pipeline network through pakistan to iran and central asia.....indian economy will hit a plateau if it cannot get access to gas from qatar and central asia and iran......at the moment, india uses 1/6th of the gas, from per person, in comparison to pakistan, at the moment......

5. privatize the pakistan defence manufacturing industry and make it the primary source of defence equipment for the middle eastern muslim countries.....

6. make pakistan the banking center for the middle east market - specifically for islamic banking, which is ready to boom......pakistan is the going to be the biggest retail market for islamic banking and for human resources in this area...pakistani banks have been totally restructured in the last ten years......

7. pakistan is one of the fastest booming telecom markets in the world, from the retail side.....it needs to starts building on this and starts to initiate knowledge transfer from the companies selling to pakistan......

8. use the recent boom in the pakistani media to make it the central media platform for the muslim countries and market.....al-jazeera started with an investment of 30 million and now relies on foreigners to run it.....it is the main news source in the muslim world.....i think pakistani media and quickly take that spot and become a the voice of the islamic world, in the international arena, without needeing foreign assistance.......

these are some the things pakistan can do....out of these, pakistan is doing 1 and 6 (to some extent).....pakistan can go head to head with the world, now, in banking, telecom (retail), small arms defence manufacturing and large arms overhauling......if all this can be added to pakistan geographical location of being a center point for logistics and transportation for china and india, it should be set economically for the coming decades.......as india and china grows, pakistan will grow automatically; perhaps faster as it sits at the mouth of the strait of hormuz, and can access the middle east muslim markets also.......

pardesi, have you heard of this? its a small effort..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act _(NREGA)

ajeya#109:

I agree with quite a bit of what you said.

Pakistan does appear more prosperous, but this prosperity, in my opinion, is somewhat hollow. I think (don't know for sure) that there may be a significant difference between income and production in Pakistan, with inward flows making up for the difference. On a per capita basis, Pakistan gets a lot more from its expats than do Indians. One of the reasons is that a higher proportion of them work outside, almost every family in Punjabi villages has one son in the army and/or another in the Gulf (who are temporary migrants unless those to the Western countries and therefore send most of their earnings back home). In addition, there is what a Pakistani commentator has called the 'manna from heaven'. Pakistan's geopolitical situation has made it a recipient of substantial aid from the US (and from Saudis). But its soft infrastructure is very weak and it generates very low internal savings. In the long run, they need to do something about this.

#106 Cobra

I had food stamps like program in mind for very poor. I think it will not be unfair that these poor souls get some benefit from Indian prosperity. By the way I am no bleeding heart Democrat but a conservative Republican :)

Ranjit:

"The new areas like Gurgaon and Noida are doing really well"

I visited Noida last year in July. It had rained in the morning for a couple of hours. I had to visit the NOIDA authority's head office. The building was like an island. All access to the building was closed. The car had to stop 500 metres from the building. Therefrom, I took the only transportation that could traverse in those conditions, a cycle riksha. When I got off the riksha, I had to fold my trousers above the knees, take my shoes in hand and show myself at the reception in that state. Had to repeat the same process walking from one wing of the building to another.

The shining India didn't appear too shining that day.

"The reason this is so easy to do in countries like Pakistan and China is that they are ruled by dictators, and they can do what they wish. In India, there are many internal political forces to contend with. Many successive governments have tried to remove the Dharavi slums, but the opposition and entrenched political interests would not let this happen. The commie party of India vetoes every legislation that aims and eradicating visible signs of poverty. Their constant refrain - spend that money on poverty-reduction programmes instead."

Add Sonia's Congress to that.
Calcutta - has improvement programs,
Delhi has improvement programs
Bombay - zilch.

DM, in addition to what others have written..India has one of highest savings rate in the world, the lowest debt/equity ratio at the corporate level and cash rich balance sheets. India is a victim of building consensus..and consensus takes time.

#102 Posted by dost_mittar

["There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India."

This is what I have been telling arjuns of chowk for a long time. ]


The outward show of poverty that India has can be obliterated in 6 months to a year. India has the money and the resources to build new airports, get rid of slums like Dharavi, and improve visible signs of prosperity.

The reason this is so easy to do in countries like Pakistan and China is that they are ruled by dictators, and they can do what they wish. In India, there are many internal political forces to contend with. Many successive governments have tried to remove the Dharavi slums, but the opposition and entrenched political interests would not let this happen. The commie party of India vetoes every legislation that aims and eradicating visible signs of poverty. Their constant refrain - spend that money on poverty-reduction programmes instead.

But otherwise, India is getting mush more prosperous than the outer appearance suggests. The good thing is that the infrastructure changes will happen, albeit slowly.

And coming to the comparison with Pakistan, while I am glad that their infrastructure is good (as it should be in any country), the comparison with India based on outward appearances is not an accurate one. As I said, with political will, India can change her outward appearance almost overnight, but for Pakistan to achieve the same level of technological prowess, democratic institutions, and educational institutions will take much longer. There is really no comparison between the two when it comes to these indicators of progress. And achieving what India has achieved in this regard will be much harder work than getting foreign/domestic contractors to build highways and public facilities, and to sell cellphones.

Well,Mr.Dalrymple has rightly pointed out the flaws that Paki govt. has today.....unfortunately Pakistan has had many rulers but no leader in these sixty years.Its the lack of ownership which is responsible for the retarded development of Pakistan as a nation....but having said tht i wud say tht not a single country on this earth is perfect.First of all,a country is known by its people...Pakistan is a beautiful country;with resilient and talented people.I dont know abt others but for me it really doesnt matter if the govt is military or civil as long as its taking my country forward.

An Optimistic Pakistani

Zeemax, what does DIA investing into India has your panties in a bunch?

Pardesi, I hate to break it to you but there's no such thing as free lunch.

#103 Posted by chaltahai,

Ok. So you're a ch'tya just as I had always thought.

End of discussion.

Education vs. Infrastructure

If there are two neighbors and one is spending his money on educating children and investing in business while the other is spending on home furniture and fancy clothing, the second one will look more prosperous. First one has brighter future though.

Having said that, India must provide reasonable healthy meals for the poorest of the poor, specially now since it can afford it. That will be a good investment.

Zeemax, are you on crack? there are PE and family offices in mooslim lands in the gulf all jerking off to put money into the INdia infra opp. Abraaj, Invesco, Prince Waleed trust, DIA and even mohammed's dead ghost is chomping at the bit.

"There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India."

This is what I have been telling arjuns of chowk for a long time.

... #100...

But don't expect too much from private equity. It doesn't invest in infrastructure. I doubt any foreigner will in today's conditions. The Sharifs could do it when they recognised the global recession of the time and how to use it.

But we can discuss it.

#99 Posted by chaltahai,

I wish you the best. I mean it.

Zeemax, in china they would have made that airport in 5 days..in Zimbabwe they would have madein 20 hrs. In India, they have had to determeine whether to fund basic services for a billion people, establish institutions of growth, invest in education etc in conjunction with making spanking new terminals. So all the major metros now..after 15 yrs of sustained growth have ambitious plans. $300B worth of Infrastructure projects are identified tobe completed in the next 10 years with 20% of that coming in from Private equity. So next time you go to India..hold your nose if you have to..or wait until 2017.

The building blocks are there now and it is now a matter of capital infusion.

Anil,

I hope your post was tongue in cheek otherwise, your claims sound obtuse if not out right outlandish.

Dalrymple discusses three issues – democracy, terrorism and education in this essay. I have often emphasized here that education needs to be the highest priority, much higher than terrorism. Especially girls’ education is the key social lever in entire South Asia.

Democracy will happen at its own pace, and in very Pakistani style – whatever that may be. west's attempts to impose democracy thru force in Iraq have provided results for all to understand. In the region Iran became a democracy, by any count, even though the west is visibly upset with this democracy. That is the power democracy delivers. No more 2:00AM phone calls.

Should Pakistani leaders bow to this pressure coming from the West? Pakistan, in my view, owes to itself to remind the west that its priority is education, terror, and democracy.

It is a waste to compare India and Pakistan with democracy as the yardstick. Democracy has established roots in India for a reason.

Military’s role in Pakistan is that of an enterprise. The best is to view it as an outsourcing industry, which currently earns $3 billion per year and can earn even more.

Historically, almost from the arrival of Islam on the sub-continent, Punjabi Muslims and Pathans have fought for others and with others. No one can deny this, it should be used as competitive advantage by Pakistan, as the west for a long time, and several Islamic nations will need this resource.

Pakistani military needs to be held accountable for the $3B/year it earns by the shareholders – who are not generals. But its people (= parliament). An act of parliament that separates this enterprise from the rest can hold the military enterprise accountable.

This outsourcing charter would allow the military total control on all aspects of outsourcing, and ability to work out alliances of its choice, and how it compensates its members.

It is this Pakistani military enterprise, which is the highest common factor between the west and Islamic world. The revenue potential is huge.

For a foreseeable future, separation of power among the two, rather than sharing of power is more important. Alliance partners of Pakistani military enterprise can be asked to guarantee, that the separation of powers is honored at all times, if they want to use the outsourcing services.

Borivli, there's no need to rush. No matter how much you decide that aint gonna happen.

Remember i said a nuclear war is coming:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Russia-Bombers.html?hp

Indi a too is building nuclear submarines for second strike capacity and missile shield in cooperation with USA and Russia. That means in coming years they will pressure Pakistan because they cannot pressure China. If pakistan do not listen to pressure india will start nuclear violence so Kashmir must be decided now

#93 Posted by Ranjit,

The four years I mentioned were those of the two Nawaz Sharif democratic tenures. You got it all wrong.

How they did it was (1) Bypassing red-tapism and beurocratic inertia at all levels; and (2) a knowledge of how to raise money from foreigners with nothing upfront except guarantees. In their case, S. Korea, Turkey, and China. Mainly S. Korea.

Re:zeemax#92
"The entire infrastructure including airports and motorways and a remodeled Lahore in Pakistan was built in four years flat with a two year break in between due to change of government."

Welcome to democracy 101. You guys might think that Indians think in lockstep. It is 180 degrees opposite of that. Every damn thing takes an eternity due to squabbling, vested interest, exteme corruption or sheer malicious intent not to let the government do anything positive.

My father was involved in the Golden Quadrilateral project of building superhighways connecting the four main cities. He tells us of his visits to Bihar, where not even 1km of road existed on the ground while millions had been "officially" spent. In other words, everything was stolen. When the central government came in with private contractors and international help, you wouldnt believe the resistance they faced from local authorities who just wouldnt let them build a road in peace since they were not getting their regular opportunity to steal. The ordinary people would cooperate, some of them were in tears to actually see something getting developed. However the local and state authorities in Bihar were seething in anger to see development happening. This is the same mindset in West Bengal as well, especially among the communists there.

What can you do? You guys have the military that can go and shove a bamboo up people's behind and get things done. We dont have that.

#83 Posted by chaltahai,

Sanitizing the volume requires infrastructure which takes decades to build. It has only been 15 years since unshackling Indian population.

The entire infrastructure including airports and motorways and a remodeled Lahore in Pakistan was built in four years flat with a two year break in between due to change of government.

#81 Posted by chaltahai,

So section #145 of the Railways Act will be repealed soon?

I have not read the article yet but I am really pleased to see Mr. Dalrymple on Chowk. I am a big fan of his book, Delhi - City of Djinns and credit him, a foreigner, for encouraging me to go and explore Humayun's Tomb, Red Fort and other living (though withering) monuments to my city's history. I also just finished reading the Last Mighal - again, a fascinating book and quite liberating from the "official" history we were taught.

And frankly I have no sympathies for "Gharib" who produce kids to pass time. If I were chef minister of Maharashtra I would have bulldozed the slums a long time ago.

#87 Cobra

Sorry yaar, I did not know you were REALLY married! Who would have believed it?!

(I am still having a tough time believing it.)

Aur meri bibi ka mazak ura sakte ho!!

Chalta, 20 years is too long a time. India will not be able to sustain growth with current infrastructure. Some thing needs to be done and pranto.
Revenue is increasing. They have billions in foreign reserves. Why not use them and unleash a grand infrastructure upgrade scheme?

#79 Cob ra

Kambakhat, gareeboN ki garibi ka majaak nahiN uDaate!. Yaad rakho!

Varnaa...

People were content with their surroundings. Mass awareness was a naive notion. I blame Govts socialistic attitude in first four decades of independence for that.

Absolutely nothing to do with caste. the lala would spit the paan juice on the walls on embassy row or on the walls of the shiva temple or jama masjid in old delhi. the lala could be brahmin, kshatriya, baniya, muslim, sikh, isai..whatever

what hits you in India upon arrival is the volume. the volume of everything. Sanitizing the volume requires infrastructure which takes decades to build. It has only been 15 years since unshackling Indian population. give it another 20 years. But in your lifetime it will happen. have faith

Chalta, Indians have more complacent attitude towards things around them. Like you said,
Yaha per sub kuch chalta hai,
Yaha aisehi hota hai or hota aya ahi type mentality is prevalent even among the industrial circles. We had a manager once (IMM graduate no less) when we asked about R&D he openly made fun of the whole idea.
May be the things are changing now it was a common attitude in our parents time.

Zeemax, you are so full of shiite..I have been to India 8 times in the last year and a half. Stop making shit up.

#76 Posted by chaltahai,

Perhaps you have a point. Maybe they can see better or expect better now, but only if their mindset changes to 'hope' instead of 'fate'.

Do you really think it has nothing to do with the caste system? I'm curious.

beej, nahi yaar who jo saare bihari or B'deshi jo rehete hai slums mey, just outside the airport.

Well I really don't mean to belittle the state of affairs of the street side dwellers, or the poor of India, but it definitely has something to do with their mindset. The conditions in Layari of Karachi were a fraction of that (no homeless, but just bad sanitation), and there were so many riots that a whole new drainage system had to be installed and the river cleaned up in no time at all by successive Governments.

#74 Coobra

[Bombay Airport sure smells like latrine. ]

Kyun, teri bibbi rehti hai kya wahaN per?

No, what I am saying is that that religion has nothing to do with squalor and dirt. I could have included RIO as well.

When people become consumers from buyers and get away from the "haan bhai..aisey hi chalta hai (pun intended)" you see things change. CHoice..freedom of choice is what drives this change

I think it's time they built another International Airport in New B'bay.

I don't know about other airports but Bombay Airport sure smells like latrine.

#71 Posted by chaltahai,

I haven't been to B'Desh or sub-Saharan Africa, but the filth in India must take the cake. It is disgusting beyond imagination. It is correct that smell of urine and faeces is everywhere as soon as you land at any major airport.

So Chalta, we should be proud that we are better that B'deshis and Sub saharan Africans, hai na?

Zeemax, bangladeshis and sun saharan africans are not hindu

I am not sure if the "acceptance of lousy conditions as destiny" is true..I think it might have somehting to do with increased purchasing power and able to demand what they want.

#62 Posted by Ranjit

... acceptance of lousy conditions as destiny, that there is very little outrage at horrible conditions.

It is interesting you should say this, because it is EXACTLY as I thought i,e, "acceptance of lousy conditions as destiny" when I first visited India. I have several times posted this expression. I concluded it must have something to do with Hindu mythology. Perhaps I'm wrong, but anyone else would just rebel, which in India, they don't.

Anyone?

#58 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

Be my guest ... :-)

#62, well said,

You should have seen the south Indian cities before and our Konkan area even now. It is much more cleaner that most of the places in North India.
Unfortunately not any more. These folks have flocked down in our cities and villages. Now our cities are over crowded, dirty and filthy.

Ranjit, sadly i know exactly what you are talking about.

Re:chalta
Thats because the lala doesnt give a $hit about what he does around himself and cares two hoots about making things dirty for other lalas. Unless there is someone with a danda like in the Maurya Sheraton, who will give him a kick on the a$$ for making it filthy, he will do what comes naturally to him - create filth.

i dont know namak haram kee haveli ..is now muslim area or hindu...


but Chandni Chowk all shops are now indians..as muslims are socially boy cotted in markets..and have to close thier shops...

Re: # 61

he will spit it on Pahr Gunk..lodhi Colony......Qarol bagh..as theseare mulims areas...

amma yaar..he can also spit in Mir Fathaullah Khan Phatak..Gali qasim Jan...Mohallah Balli Maro....


i mean in front of Ghalib haveli..as he was also muslim...

Re:clifton
I hate to say this but basically North Indians have a very poor civic sense. Whether it is collective hygiene or upgrading infrastructure or general cleanliness, they have a very high threshold of tolerance for a crappy situation. In fact, they positively wallow in filth. It must be a legacy of past subjugation and acceptance of lousy conditions as destiny, that there is very little outrage at horrible conditions.

We went to Hardwar since it is a hindu pilgrimage on the banks of Ganga. It is termed as "Devbhoomi" or the abode of Gods. The natural beauty there in terms of the river and the surroundings is awesome. However, the man made filth there will make your stomach turn. The Ghat on the banks of Ganga is just gross. It is filthy beyond imagination. Garbage is piled up all over the place, flies are swarming, people urniating or doing nature's call, it is just appalling. Its not that people are poor. Most people coming there are probably middle class or lower middle class hindus. But there is absolutely no maintenance and it is filthy to the core. We took one look at it and decided to get the hell out of it as we scooted back to Delhi.

ranjit, the lala who has a pan after lunch at Nirulas in Connaught Place and spits out the juice allover the walls nearby would dare not do that at the Maurya Sheraton. Why?

Re: # 32
post by zeemax...

Haha Dawai-Dil ... you're the limit ... You labelled the links:

"nude pics ..plz...girls are not allowed ...."

LoL




mai nai kaha masoom choti chothi bachiayya hai..kahee shining india kee beauty ko daikh kar dar na jai....

ranjit , seriuosly , i heard dehli put in a bid for nascar, my friends from dehli say the same thing about dehli roads ...is there a scheme to improve them?

BTW i have also heard that the dehli subway is still pan free and urine free months after its inaugaration ...so clearly there is hope.

Re: # 31 zeemax

hehehehe...i add it now....people are curious to know..about you..who unleashed the "beauty" of shining india...

The author's points about the difference in visible affluence of the two countries should be taken seriously. India certainly faces a massive infrastructure crisis and our political bickering is severely slowing us down, which ultimately impacts our economic prospects. The Delhi airport stinks of urine even to this day with worn out carpeting and third class furnishings right from the jetways to the terminal. The area outside Delhi airport is a zoo with a free for all among ten thousand vehicles. Even in posh parts of Delhi, there are severe power shortages and water shortage. Roads are in crappy conditions. On my visit to Delhi, we drove from Delhi to Hardwar. The road trip was a nightmare, especially in the western UP section after Ghaziabad. In the areas near Muzaffarnagar, Meerut etc, the highways have craters like it is in a war zone or something.

The new areas like Gurgaon and Noida are doing really well, but in these cases, most residential complexes and high rises are using their own power systems and water supply. I think the key lies in privatization. All utilities, roads etc should be privatized. I remember the phones used to be really bad until the telecome sector started booming with all the cell phone companies. Now phones are not an issue any more. The same needs to happen with all utilities.

Unfortunately the communist parties, who are part of the ruling setup, will not allow any infrastructure improvements at all. They resist anything that allows India to improve, even by a small measure. It is very frustrating to see India being held hostage by elements who are determined to keep us in a crappy state. The sad part is that people now have money in India. The place is flourishing but the infrastructure just does not improve. Thats why anyone coming from outside feels that there is more visible poverty. Its a frikking shame.

#48 Posted by Naqshbandi,

Why not take the army in and forcibly take over their land?

Nice Sufi thought :) Even I did not support forcible occupation of the library by Hafsa but obviously you did!

Or is it simply that all you folks are twin-faced hypocrites?

kaal hoping for the end of malnutrition is not a crime :)

good for the good doctor..

I'm not going to bother with hotlinking the urls..

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/17ndeal7.htm

What Dr Singh told Bush on N-deal

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] has made it clear to President George W Bush [Images] during negotiations on the Indo-US nuclear deal that India could not agree to a 'bilateral' Non-Proliferation Treaty or the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT). He also said that it was not in India's interest for Iran to become a nuclear weapons power though it had the right to have nuclear energy as an NPT member.

"I told Bush that I can't be a cheer leader or be part of a war-mongering group. The nuclear dispute with Iran should be resolved through peaceful processes," he told a magazine in an interview.

The prime minister spoke to the magazine two months ago while he was returning from the G-8 Summit. The magazine said its understanding was that excerpts of the interview could be published once the 123 Agreement was reached.

Singh said the US President told him in July, 2005: "Don't expect me to help you to build bombs. I told him I didn't expect the US to do that because with our previous achievements, we didn't need anyone's help."

The prime minister said, "I made it clear during the negotiations that we can't agree to a bilateral NPT or CTBT. We have a unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing and we will exercise restraint".

"We wanted to be transparent because of the deep suspicions about the US among our political, intellectual and scientific class. In Parliament, we drew red lines on the deal that we wouldn't cross. I even told President Bush that just as he has a Congress, I have one too. My commitments to Parliament acted as a disciplining force without which we would have been vulnerable while negotiating with the US later," Singh said.

Singh, who has been under attack from the Opposition and the Left allies over the nuclear cooperation agreement, contended that the deal was a "logical fallout" of the Next Steps in Strategic Partnership that the National Democratic Alliance government headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee had begun with the US.

"It was an outcome of that process. While we had successfully made nuclear weapons, on the power front there were too many shifting targets. We had set a target of 10,000 MW of nuclear power almost 35 years ago and now we have only around 3,700 MW. The deal would help us meet our targets for nuclear power," he told the magazine.

About the Bharatiya Janata Party, he said, "It requires a big leap in approach and the attitude of the BJP is disappointing. They didn't even believe I would last as the prime minister and some leaders even did havans that I should die on a certain day. But I have faith in a higher force. I believe it was my destiny to be the prime minister. I have the courage of conviction."

On nuclear scientists, he said, "I have a great respect for them. Although they don't have a veto on the deal, I felt we needed them to be on board. They had faced the bad side of the US � the isolation and the suspicion � and I had to take them along. "

The prime minister said he felt dreadful about a world full of nuclear weapons. "Now there are even dangers of a dirty bomb and non-state actors using it. The world could end up with a catastrophe, he said.

Describing Bush as a "very easy person" to deal with, Singh said, "He is very nice to me and of all the US Presidents, he is the friendliest towards India."

Noting that the US had become the "sole superpower" almost 15 years ago, he said, "But all these years, no Indian government had the courage to change our policy towards the US.

"It was felt during the foreign policy review that Indo-US relations were the key in a globalised world and we needed to give them the highest importance," the prime minister said.

"I believe in being friends to all countries and we had to open new pathways to do that. We need to change the cycle. The guiding principle is to resolve disputes without creating fear and uncertainty. On Pakistan and China, we are on track. In Indo-US relations, the nuclear issue was an irritant and the deal works towards removing that. As regards our international status, in major forums now China and India are mentioned in the same breath. That is something deeply satisfying.

But there is no scope for complacency. We can't take our place in the world for granted. We need to work harder, harder, harder, the prime minister said.

The forbes list of most corrupt nations is out. congrats pakis..you beat out india..

#1 Haiti
#2 Myanmar
#3 Iraq
#4 Guinea
#5 Sudan
#6 Democratic republic of Congo
#7 Chad
#8 Bangladesh
#9 Uzbekistan
#10 Equatorial Guinea
#11 Cote d'Ivoire
#12 Cambodia
#13 Belarus
#14 Turkmenistan
#15 Tajikistan
#16 Sierra Leone
#17 Pakistan
#18 Nigeria
#19 Kyrgyszstan
#20 Kenya

#44 Posted by KaalChakra

zee, let's not be too harsh on liberals, even if they are Pakistani liberals. They feel too threatened by Islamists. They don't get it that Islamists want (need) Pakistan at least as much as, probably much more than, do the nationalists. What they see as the threat is the first glue. Actually, they see a threat to themselves, which they should, if they have any intelligence. :)

Yes I know Kaal. But I have no sympathy left for them anymore (I did before ... remember my iLogs?) after some of these were heard saying that the Jamia Hafsa people will walk out once their refrigeration ran out and their food stock started to rot.

#48 Posted by Naqshbandi on August 17, 2007 8:41:45 am


Yes, Pakistan has got problems--which country doesn't?-


Pakiland's bigget problem - the fact that it's the fountainhead of global islamic terrorism - is everybody's problem...

From people riding the subway to people flying transatlantic to people in london who just want to party at the ministry of sound etc etc...

#49 Posted by zeemax on August 17, 2007 8:45:01 am


To the great disappointment of the Kanjaroon, the economic boom will remain growing and grow even faster once a firm boot is placed on USA's behind plus it's slave kanjaroons.


If that happens, there will also be a new aviation boom in the land of the pure. You can sell tickets for people to ride on the flying pigs.

To the 'kanjaroon' who ask whether or if Pakistan will survive (not only that but also continue to prosper) the following should be told with a megaphone between their ass cheeks (Gawd I'm using Echoboom patented prose :)

Approx $65 billion has flowed into Pakistan since end 2001 which has made the consumer, real estate and equities boom possible. Out of that, some $6-7 billion (@ $100 million per month) has been through logistical support payments from USA in the Afghan war(and NOT aid) plus some portfolio investments by emerging market funds. There has beem NIL FDI from USA in all that period and the figures of even $900 million or so last year are the unrepatriated and poughed-back Rupee profits of existing US owned enterprises in Pakistan. So where did the balance $58-59 billion come from, and continues to come ( FX reserves grew by 60% during just last fiscal)?

It all came as FDI by Saudia, Gulf countries, Egypt, and Malaysia plus foreign worker's remittances and reverse capital flight. Instead of stopping, it will increase with Pakistan's disassociating itself from WOT.

To the great disappointment of the Kanjaroon, the economic boom will remain growing and grow even faster once a firm boot is placed on USA's behind plus it's slave kanjaroons.

(Echoboom, please send me the bill for copyright use).

On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.

Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centres and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million.

Mohsin Hamid, author of the Booker long-listed novel The Reluctant Fundamentalist, wrote about this change after a recent visit: having lived abroad as a banker in New York and London, he returned home to find the country unrecognisable. He was particularly struck by "the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programmes, independent news networks, cross-dressing talkshow hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis".

I knew, of course, that the government of Pervez Musharraf had opened the media to private operators. But I had not until then realised how profoundly things had changed. Not just television, but private radio stations and newspapers have also flourished in Pakistan over the past few years. The result is an unprecedented openness. Young people are speaking and dressing differently. Views both critical and supportive of the government are voiced with breathtaking frankness in an atmosphere remarkably lacking in censorship. Public space, the common area for culture and expression that had been so circumscribed in my childhood, has now been vastly expanded. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

Little of this is reported in the western press, which prefers its sterotypes simple: India-successful; Pakistan-failure.

--an excellent, balanced and fair article. Yes, Pakistan has got problems--which country doesn't?--but as Dalrymple says the reality on the ground is much better than in India. But he has correctly identified the main problems pakistan has although to ask whether it will survive is just hyperbole. THe question is, 'What can be done to solve these 3 issues?' Especially breaking the back of the feudal landlords...

I had hoped that Mushy would have taken on these parasites but he has disappointed. Why not take the army in and forcibly take over their land?

Zee:41
Yeah saw that & I thought wow! ESP!

thanks.

Someone's really gotten after arjun :)

'In Pakistan, the literacy figure is under half (it is currently 49%) and falling"

this is a pivotal concept for pakistan.

Not mentioned in this article is the fact that child malnourishment is actually higher in India than africa (source BBC news 8/13/07 indian independance article).

This is a pivotal concept for India. Unless it does a better job of supplying basic food and amenities to its most marginal and despised segments of society, that part of society will be prey to a wide spectrum of diseases including kwashiokor, cretinism etc and arjun will continue to post tripe on chowk.

zee, let's not be too harsh on liberals, even if they are Pakistani liberals. They feel too threatened by Islamists. They don't get it that Islamists want (need) Pakistan at least as much as, probably much more than, do the nationalists. What they see as the threat is the first glue. Actually, they see a threat to themselves, which they should, if they have any intelligence. :)

Einsteinwallah:

Yaar! you can only sell if you have something worthwhile. The people are always looking for something to better themselves. It is called "growing" up...and not all conversions are at gun-point or by promising good-health /or education. The present day conversions to Islam in the land of the enemies of Islam , and exponentially post-911, is a fact one can deny only at the peril of getting completely discredited.

Of course Hinduism does not convert..but it smothers by its bear-hug..hinduism does not convert, it CANNOT convert even a dalit; their station is determined ordained for their entire generations..it metamorphosizes the other.

It is century 21, do you know where all the Buddhists are?
No they did not convert; they reverted. RIGHT?..Only in India , you say!

#39 Posted by Ras on August 17, 2007 8:13:37 am


The Kashmir issue has retarded growth in the region too long. In Pakistan's case, they need less military and more people empowerment.


Really...the "kashmir problem" hasn't stopped india from growing at 7%+ in the last decade and half and 9%+ for the last three years. Pakis would have us believe that if Kashmir was resolved(i.e. status quo altered in Pakiland's favor), poverty would be eliminated from south asia.

OTOH, your use of islamic terrorists to fight your fight means you're having to use white phosphorus on school girls, hand over pakis to the US for a trip to club gitmo, use artillery and helicopter gunships against pakis and in general having to grease up and bend over to foreign powers..

What's ironic is that the paki policy of using islamic terrorism in kashmir has had a major blowback effect that has led to the military taking over the government in pakiland...

#37 Posted by echoboom,

Reproduced for your amusememnt :)

#16 Posted by zeemax on August 17, 2007 4:48:47 am
Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?"

Jugnu Mohsin should be asked the following in response:

1) If Pakistan doesn't survive, will it disappear in thin air? Or will there be something else in it's place? India? China? Afghanistan? Iran? Or what?

2) If Pakistan does survive, will the people like Jugnu Mohsin who have permanent residences in New York but run Pakistan, survive?

Uh-oh...this won't go down well with the kuldip nayyar clones and the reality-challenged pakis

Undersea play: BSNL, MTNL to link Pak, Iran

TNN[ FRIDAY, AUGUST 17, 2007 01:37:09 PM]
NEW DELHI: Public sector BSNL and MTNL plan to provide international connectivity to telcos in Pakistan, Iran and Bangladesh by allowing operators from these countries to link to its upcoming submarine cables to Europe and South-East Asia.

Millennium Telecom Ltd (MTL), the JV company formed by the two PSUs will build the undersea links which will connect India to South Asia and West Asia and later expanded to the US and Europe, respectively.

MTL has also appointed UK-based Dataware Ltd as the consultant for phase I of the Rs 1,800-crore cable project and France’s Axiom as the phase II consultant. The phase I consultant will examine the feasibility of the project and the return on investment while the phase II will provide assistance to MTL till the completion of the project, company sources said.

According to BSNL executives, the eastern leg of the cable which terminates in Singapore will have branches to Bangladesh, Myanmar, Andaman & Nicobar Islands, Thailand, and Indonesia. As per the plans, the Western link to Europe will touch United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, with branches to Pakistan Oman, Iran, Qatar and Kuwait.

While the cable will primarily be used for carrying voice and data traffic from India to these countries, it will also enable telcos from these countries to carry their traffic to Europe, Singapore and other countries which the undersea link touches. Sources said that MTL has already initiated talks with these countries for landing station rights for the submarine cable project.

At present, though both BSNL and MTNL have international long distance licence, they depend on private undersea operators to carry most of its traffic. Private players like Bharti Airtel, Reliance Communications (Flag Telecom) and Tatas-owned VSNL all own undersea cables.

A top source in the ministry for communication and IT told that the government was clearing the decks for BSNL to foray into global markets by floating an international subsidiary called BSNL Videsh. According to sources, in the first phase BSNL Videsh will oversee the PSU’s ILD operations.

The government wants this subsidiary to be modelled on the likes of Tatas owned VSNL and be a major player in the international undersea cable space. Sources also added that BSNL Videsh would act as the business arm of MTL, which would be the infrastructure service provider.

According to the agreement between both the PSUs last year, BSNL and MTNL had given an undertaking that they would use MTL’s infrastructure for a minimum period of 20 years. The deal, also stipulates that in case of disinvestment of equity, the first right of equity will be given to the other partner. It also states that the MTL board will be the sole authority dealing with “all matters relating to contract and speedy implementation of the project�.

Great article!

If I had written the same in my "A Pakistani American

in India" article, Indian readers would consider it

biased. But in spite of the Indian boom, on the whole

I found Pakistan looking more affluent than India (

neither one is without infrastructure problems).

Will Pakistan Survive? "Inshallah" is the common reply.

Indeed "God Willing" is the predominant attitude there.

What Pakistanis could use is a "Team Management" concept

the one can only hope that they will discover sooner

than later. No more superstars please!

Pakistan's problems are with its high expectations and

little to back them up. It needs to sacrifice in some

areas (we know what those are) and hit its social sector

with as many resources that it can afford.

India is booming,and I for one am happy about it.

But it has substantially more problems.

The Kashmir issue has retarded growth in the region

too long. In Pakistan's case, they need less military

and more people empowerment. The Musharraf regime appears

to be beginning to recognize that.

In either case I found that poverty is the biggest factor.

India's poor are many and very poor. But Pakistan's poor

are not improving their lot because the country is too busy

correcting one political disaster after another.

As they say "Inshallah"...

Ras

[#34 Posted by Ally on August 17, 2007 7:02:37 am]

The behaviour you describe was seen by my mother in Muslims also. So the problem goes back to long time ealier when Muslims were violent and looted and raped. You cannot wish away human memory. If humans had been reptiles there would not be a problem. But they are not reptiles.

Islam is a jinxed religion. It asks its believer to convert. Hinduism is not like that. In Hinduism there are not one book but many books. When Brahmo movement began there was no consensus as to which scriptures are "true" source of Hinduism. Currently popular sanskrit words are in 4 lines of Bhagavat Gita:

Karmanye Vaadhikaa rastey
Maa phaleshu kadaachana
Maa karmaphal hetur bhoor
Maa te sangostwakarmani

Most of Hindu who manage to become interested in these lines come to know its meaning as best as a Guru can explain and they can understand. These lines mean: On deeds (karms) is your claim and jurisdiction, on their consequences you have none (those being business of mother nature, god etc), neither the realisation that consequence is going to be good must encourage you to do your deeds, nor that consequence is going to be bad must discourage you from doing your deeds (in other words deeds have absolute worthiness which and only which should be object of inquiry). For figuring worthiness of deed you can use your judgement or ask guidance of a guru.

Are Americans justified in being wary of Muslims after 9/11? If they are why should not the Hindus of past be allowed same tendency? Why should a Hindu trust a Muslim after he has killed or raped? If American were reptiles they would forget about 9/11 on 9/12. Americans are not reptiles.

Aaah!William Dalrymple
wished he had a less taxing last name.

White Mughals: Excellent work , perhaps THE BEST in the faction genre (fact+fiction) in the english language.

City of Djinns:
good primer for those who are illiterate in Urdu, which has wealth of amazing stuff.

Last Mughal: ...ditto...as above. would only excite those who are Urdu challenged.

His book on China , I do want to read someday. Believe that was his first.
________________________________________________________

I tremendously admire William D for his dedication to his work. He lives in Dahlee with his wife. Both are descendents of two of THE most influential figures of pre-1857 Dahlee
Metcalfe & Fraser.

Yet I hold him accountable for this quote by that Kanjaroon:

"As Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?" On the country's 60th birthday, the answer is by no means clear."

Suddenly this "failed" state kind of buzz-words are being bandied around and if one notices such blasphemy is only uttered by the Kanjaroon sect. The reason is that it is in fact their own Kanjar behaviour which is being snuffed out by , mashaAllah, the ones with Hijaabs, Niquaabs, DarRhees, & Shalwaars..the day is not far off when these Kanjaroons would wish that they be allowed to live as muslims or leave Pakistan as Kanjaroons.

Prosperity has nothing whatsoever to do with cell-phones or stock-market indexes. Las Vegas will always be "rich" with its garish neon-signs & Kanjaroon clientele. Kansas will always be "poor" because the son has to look after the family farm & his father & not leave them for a few Dollars more in Kanjaroon-lands.

Cube has a per capita income of $4200 whereas Pakistan's per Capita is $2400.

There is no FAILED STATE ever! It is the failed westerm systems like CAPITALISM & COMMUNISM which has brought misfortune & misery upon billions on this earth. Just imagine the two sects of Darwanism going to two "GREAT" wars [ since when wars are great? simply because the bastards won?] to prove their religion of Darwinism right.

It was just in the 80's when the Banks gloated that it is very safe to lend money to the poorest nations..& in their words "because nations never go broke , like the companies"..

ALLAMA Iqbal saw through this charade . What a guy indeed!

Laakhh Laanut on the Westernism...AaaakHHHH Thhhhhhhooo!

Ally, if you don't get on with atif and zee, the problem may be at much with you as with them. Those two are among the smartest of chowkies and first-rate people.

Drop the baggage (as much as you can) and look at the world with open eyes. You may find the much-needed dawa-i-dill :)

Most Indians completely subscribe to the TNT(Terrorist(pakiland) Nation Theory)..

If it weren't for TNT, the headlines would read british citizens of indian descent blow up subway/ plan to blow up ministry of sound/ plan to poison people/ plan to blow up airlines over the atlantic etc etc.

I recently saw a bbc 2 program on Partition, and there was a Lahori man who lived in Lahore all his life before and after partition, he said that the Hindus wouldn't even let Muslims drink water from the same well if they did they attached a pipe and gave it to them thru the pipe... There was a Lahori Hindu describing how his mother would never let her Muslim neighbbours into her kitchen at time of eating and would never eat anything from them, he also said it was this sort of behaviour that led to the creation of Pakistan.

As much as i dont get on with people like Atif and Zeemax, the fact is we are Pakistani and we have our own country and we can debate about how we want it to go, at least we have it and its ours there is no one treating us worse than untouchables... 'achoot se bhi badtar hamey samjha jata tha' were the words he used to describe how Hindus looked at Muslims... Shuker Allah Jinaah came and made our country, now i know for sure Pakistan was never a mistake and it was something that had to happen, look at Gujerat and Kashmir, Allah ka lakh lakh shuker haiN we dont live with that stuff.

This India Pakistan season has been very infomative, you hear the real stories and realise why our country was created. Even now look at how fascist Hindus are here on chowk, not to another race but their own race, Jatt, Rajput, Gujjer and other castes their own kind and look how vile they treated them...

Maybe when Hitler stole the swastika from Hindus to use in his campaign maybe he wasn't too far off from the truth cause this symbol, now, to me represents fascism at its peak...

No wonder so many religions took hold in India, becasue Hinduism as practiced today is itself flawed majorly, it punishes its own people, people are telling Muslims its time for reform and sure enuff it is, we admit that and are talking about it, but i know that Hinduism itself needs major reform, look at all the caste wars, this is the scourge of South Asia. Also the severly insecure 'i am better than you so dont touch me you impure person' attitude of its followers needs to change, until then they will never find harmony in their faith or country... this prejudice is its inherent flaw and it doesnt take a genious to point it out...

its such a shame, the root cause for the break up of India is the fascist faith of Indians... its saddening but now i can understand where all this vile hatred comes from within Hindu Indians...

Pakistan Zindabad!!!

#30 Posted by zeemax on August 17, 2007 6:24:11 am



Looks like the thieves are sharing stolen passwords of Pakistani magazines around.


Poor paki cab drivers and 7/11 clerks can't afford 20$/yr? Maybe we can set up a charity or something..all excess money can be used to buy deodorant..

Haha Dawai-Dil ... you're the limit ... You labelled the links:

"nude pics ..plz...girls are not allowed ...."

LoL

#29 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

LoL ... but please add my credits ... 'Courtesy Zeemax' !!!

Looks like the thieves are sharing stolen passwords of Pakistani magazines around.

Re: # 18

thanks...

but i have pasted your whole 3 threads of unplugged there....

hehehehe....

majumdar and harish: check your messages.

Thanks Arjun bhai. Do repeat every Friday.

Regards

Re: # 23
Excellent coomet by Mr.Romair.
The last paragraph sums it best way.
"......the biggest difference, however, between india and pakistan, today, is in terms of attitude......indians are very positive at the moment (in my opinion, overly so, but still positive).....pakistanis are cynical and unsure......one feels their country is moving up, the other is not sure whether their's is on the verge of moving up or moving down...... "
I will add that delusions and imagination are more powerful than truth.

Re: # 16
Let year have 1000 days and Pakistan will live 1000 years should be our attitude.
Miserable comments by defeatist and dog mentality people. Shame on them.

#20 by arjun2

Do us a favor. Reproduce the Nuggets from TFT every week on your i-log or UP. It is very entertaining!

william dalrymple, in my opinion, is the premiere living scholar of south asian history......the guy is an amazing writer.......and a must read for all south asians, who want to know about themselves and their history......i have all his works and have gone through them.....simply excellent!

.......unfortunately, i get the feeling he won't be interacting on this site.......in any case, his comments should be taken very seriously......

i generally tend to agree with what he has written....a concise, accurate and unbiased analyses.......he knows (the history of) south asia, better than all of us.....

pakistan is truly at a corss-roads today......i am seeing it myself, as i get a chance to meet with some of the decision-makers in various areas......banks, telecoms and real estates are booming at international levels.....not only in wealth creation, but also in technical advances....the boom in media is in front of everyone to see.....

yet the judiciary and the political institutions are destroyed.....the army is into so many business areas, it isn't even funny....i didn't realize the extent of this, until i started working with some of these companies.....the average lt. gen. in pakistan, heads business conglomorates, which make him one of the biggest business decision makers in the country.......

dalrymple's comments on infrastructure differences between india and pakistan are correct......i was surprised to see how much better pakistan's major cities are, in comparison, to india's bigger cities in infrastructure.....

......the biggest difference, however, between india and pakistan, today, is in terms of attitude......indians are very positive at the moment (in my opinion, overly so, but still positive).....pakistanis are cynical and unsure......one feels their country is moving up, the other is not sure whether their's is on the verge of moving up or moving down......

boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia.


India has had 3 years of 9%+ growth..Pakiland around 7%. Pakiland's inflation is much much higher than India's...

Pakiland's stock market is an echo chamber of self-delusion...not one company listed there can hold it's own in the world..no tata, infosys,reliance or wipro...a half-dozen stocks can move the markets thousands of points..

William Dalrymple is clearly not an economist...he writes fantastic articles on the rise of islamofascism in the UK..he should stick to that..

before anyone notices...wtf? its dalrymple on chowk? is he going to interact?

#9 Posted by majumdar on August 17, 2007 3:14:55 am

TFT nuggets from this week's issue..

Maulvi arrested for making explicit movies

As reported in daily Jang, the khatib of a mosque, Maulana Safdar Ali, who also practiced hikmat (traditional medical practice) had illicit relations with village women and installed a hidden video camera in his bedroom to make nude films on CDs. When a young fellow, Nasir, borrowed a CD from the maulvi’s brother and saw the movies, he called the whole village and showed them the films. Safdar Ali shaved his beard and was trying to escape, when the police arrested him and sent him to Sargodha jail.

RAW responsible for suicide attacks

As reported in Daily Pakistan, provincial law minister Malik Zafar Azam said in Karak that the army came to NWFP without the consent of the provincial government. He said that the law and order situation is deteriorating because of the wrong foreign policy of the federal government. He said that RAW is responsible for suicide attacks in the province.

Ekta Kapoor is responsible

In daily Express, columnist Saad ullah Jan Barq wrote that Ekta Kapoor is responsible for the long plays that don’t end especially, Kyun Keh Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi. A serial is being aired from Dubai called, Kyun keh jalawatan bhi kabhi wazir e azam tha. From Waziristan a serial is on air, Kyun keh dhahshatgard bhi kabhi mujahid tha. Now Islamabad is playing, Kyun keh jaj bhi kabhi wakeel tha. These serials are being launched by a person called Mahakta kafur (fragrant camphor).

Woman can't be head of a Muslim state

As reported in daily Jang, after the meeting of Pervez Musharraf and Benazir Bhutto, the ulema have again started saying that women are not entitled to be heads of state according to Islam. Secretary General of Wafaqul Madaris, Qari Hanif Jalandhri, said that Islam doesn’t allow a woman to be head of state. The majority of ulema agreed that women can’t be made Qazis or imams of a mosque, so there is no question of a woman head of state according to Islam.

Shahbaz Sharif studying British transport system

In daily Express, Javed Chaudhry wrote that he went to Edgware Road for lunch with Shahbaz Sharif on a bus. The bus was comfortable and clean. He asked Shahbaz Sharif, “Can’t we start this bus service in Pakistan?� Sharif replied, painfully, that if October 12 hadn’t happened, we would have seen these buses in Pakistan. He said that he is studying this system to establish it in the major cities of Pakistan.

Weeping parents of Jamia Hafsa

In daily Express, columnist Saad ullah Jan Barq wrote that a new production by Kala Ji Lala Ji (aka Bush and Bush) is being aired from Islamabad. The main dialogue is, “Bachay aur bachion ki zindagi bachanee chahiye� (we must save the lives of children). What insect bit the parents of these bachon aur bachion that they didn’t pull their children out when the situation was getting worse in Islamabad? The parents that are weeping on the roads prided themselves earlier on their girls are having religious education in Islamabad. The truth is that these parents were more interested to book a flat in heaven with the lives of their children.

Dealers of opposition

As reported in daily Nawa-e-Waqt, the PPP leader Babar Awan said that during the last six years all the opposition leaders who had made LFO deals, uniform deals and Jeddah deals had now gathered in one truck. He said that he hopes that Javed Hashmi would say his juma prayers in his own mohalla and Shahbaz Sharif would be happy that his lawyer is now Attorney General of Pakistan. He said that the leaders of Jamaat e Islami and dealer league should explain how many weeks they spent in jail for democracy.

Mosque burnt in England

As reported in daily Express, miscreants burnt a mosque in Bradford, according to a private TV channel. The mosque is situated in an area where the worst of the anti Muslim riots happened five years ago.

Media bias against the PPP

In daily Express, columnist Abbas Athar wrote that Benazir Bhutto told him once that Shaheed Bhutto, herself and the PPP are products of the people and not the media. The PPP still has the same attitude with the media. During the recent All Parties Conference in London, he saw that all the print media and electronic media journalists were impatient for the PPP to be discarded from the opposition.

Parents responsible for extremism in England

As reported in daily Express, member of the British House of Lords, Lord Nazir Ahmad, said that the rise of extremism in England is due to the lack of education. He said that during the Mughal period Britain was establishing universities while the Mughals were building Shahi mohallas (prostitute bazaars) in the Subcontinent. He said illiterate immigrants came to Britain, while professional immigrants went to America. He said that there are 8,700 Muslims in British jails, which is 11 percent of the total number of prisoners. He said the parents are responsible for the bad character of youth in Britain.

Makhdoom Javed Hashmi vs Makhdoom Shah Mehmood

As reported in daily Jang, ex Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto decided to field Shah Mehmood Qureshi from Multan NA 148 against Javed Hashmi. The decision was taken in a parliamentary board meeting in London. They have faced each other three times. Shah Mehmood won in 1993 and 2002 while Hashmi won only once in 1997.

Saudi Arabia was guarantor of Nawaz Sharif

As reported in daily Nawa-e-Waqt, the provincial head of a secret agency said during the dinner by British Member of Parliament Chaudhry Sarwar that if the court allowed Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif to return to Pakistan they would not be returned from the airport but would be allowed to go to Raiwind. He said that Saudi Arabia gave a guarantee to keep the Sharif family out of the country for ten years, and they would ask them to return to Saudi Arabia.

Muslims are following Jewish culture

As reported in Daily Pakistan, the amir of Jamaat ahl Hadees Hafiz Abdul Ghaffar Ropari said that it’s a shame that Muslims have left the teachings of Islam and are following the Jewish culture. The new generation instead of saying “Asalam-e-Alaikum� are using “hello� and “hi.� He said all ulema should unite to fight the rulers who are backing Jews.

American conspiracy to arm Arab states

As reported in Daily Pakistan, Hassan Nasrullah, the head of the armed militia Hezbullah, said that it’s an American conspiracy to supply arms to the Middle East and Arab countries. He said America wants civil war by supplying arms to Arab countries. America has planned to provide arms worth US$ 20 billion to Saudi Arabia and has promised to increase military support to Israel.

Dacoit Imam masjid caught in Gujranwala

As reported in daily Khabrain, in Gujranwala an Imam masjid, Hafiz Abu Bakr, of a mosque on Nowshehra road was caught for dacoities on rented motorcycles. Police recovered six mobile phones that were snatched from people. He got Rs 2,000 for leading prayers but started robbing people on rented motorcycles.

Mustafa Khar to join Imran Khan

As reported in daily Khabrain, ex governor of Punjab Ghulam Mustafa Khar will join the Tehreek e Insaf. Mustafa Khar was issuing statements against the meeting of Benazir Bhutto and Pervez Musharraf. He is expected to meet Imran Khan of the Tehreek e Insaf, where he might announce his joining the party.

Saudis and Kuwaitis donate 24 million

As reported in daily Nawa-e-Waqt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have donated 24 million pounds for the renovation of the oldest mosque in Liverpool in England. The name of the builder of this mosque was William. He accepted Islam after he travelled to Morocco and Algeria for two years. His Muslim name was Sheikh Abdul Kalyam.

Pakistan on the verge of destruction

As reported in daily Nawa-e-Waqt, quoting from The Guardian, Pakistan is on the verge of destruction and Pervez Musharraf has exhausted all options. Musharraf’s meeting with Benazir Bhutto is the last hope. The newspaper wrote that the Quaid-e-Azam created Pakistan so that Muslims could live in peace, but the country is now on the brink of destruction. Islamabad has no control in the tribal areas, and Al Qaeda leaders are openly threatening to kill Musharraf.

But in Pakistan, the literacy figure is under half (it is currently 49%) and falling: instead of investing in education, Musharraf's military government is spending money on a cripplingly expensive fleet of American F-16s for its air force.


Seeing as how the pakis don't have the testicular fortitude to attack India, the F-16s are going to be used to bomb and kill the uneducated jihadis...

If they kill a whole lot of uneducated jihadis, the literacy rate will increase...

#17 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

LoL ... you're being naughty ... :)

Go to:

http://www.webmonkey.com/webmonkey/reference/html_cheatsheet/

... and follow the instructions :)

zeemax...

its off topic..but i urgently need that...

i want to paste some pics of "shining mumbai" on www.alldost.com

can you tell me the way..how you pasted it on chowk..forum..in unplugged...

thanks

Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?"

Jugnu Mohsin should be asked the following in response:

1) If Pakistan doesn't survive, will it disappear in thin air? Or will there be something else in it's place? India? China? Afghanistan? Iran? Or what?

2) If Pakistan does survive, will the people like Jugnu Mohsin who have permanent residences in New York but run Pakistan, survive?

Harish,

I concede the point abt some readers adding news topics BUT the nature of articles published are one-sided. Cant deny that.

NB,

He said some +ve points abt Pakistan which is OK when the wole world is cusring them.

Excpet Mr. Dalrymple's date of Pakistan's "Independence", I dont have any issues with this article.

This is in vast contrast to what biased account noble prized Naipaul has written in 'Among Believers' and given prize just after 9/11

#7 by Folio

Pl look at the coverage of news (from Main page of Chowk):

Yaar, I just looked at it and found that even you can add a news item. So essentially it means Chowk staff have nothing to do with it. It is users like you and me who add those items, and I have a feeling that the ones about Jinnah and Paki Christians must have surely been added by Yasser mian.

why you Folio are so jealous about article of pakistan

Who has read the White Mughals and the last mughal?

#9 by majumdar

Majumdar bhai, not just the Nuggets, the whole magazine rocked. Unfortunately, you need to subscribe to it now :-(

Harishbhai,

I used to love the Nuggets in the Friday Times sadly it is not free to air anymore. They were absolutely hilarious- Maulanas predicting Islam takeover of the world, Reema and Meera getting guttam guthha, tales of bhoots and jinns pursuing men and women they fancied.

Regards

Add on:

Why cant these Chowk jerks publish the articles that appeared along with Bill's in Guardian? Coz they're written on India!

Since this one is written on Pakistan, these Chowk jerks published it readily.

Harish, Chowk cant be neutral to Indians and Pakistanis.....this site is essentially for Pakistanis.

Pl look at the coverage of news (from Main page of Chowk):

News from Elsewhere

* Jinnah's Gujurati Interview reveals his attributes, Daily India

* Islamic Perspective of Pakistan Ambassadors of Islam/Pak Observer

* Pakistani Christian leader vows to fight for minority rights till the last drop of his blood.

& Look at the topics they publish! They NEVER publish articles that deal with Indian subjects and issues.

#4 by nb

I know it was not written for chowk, but it still too good for chowk. What next, Salman or Amitav Ghosh to write for chowk?

Well at Chowk, it's either too good or too bad. One look at the other piece "Rise of Hindu Right Wing Ideology" and I'm reminded of articles Pakistan's Urdu press (I can't read Urdu, but used to read nuggets of their columns translated into English in the Friday Times).

Wow, that sounds incredible!

I know it was not written for chowk, but it still too good for chowk. What next, Salman or Amitav Ghosh to write for chowk?

NB, This was not written 4 Chowk but written 4 Guardian newspaper.

I admire Bill and his work on Indian issues (Pak included). I dont consider him as gora anymore.

This article is unusually well written for chowk, I demand it be taken off the fp.

God bless Pakistan....


i am proud of Pakistan .....


the author is righty saying....


poverty level of pakistan is much less than Indian...


our middle class houses are far better than india...


go and visit the DHA..cavalary....cantt...jauhar town etc....


you will seem to know...


you have come into somemodern residing area of USA etc....


though..the looting of Millitary Feudal..lords are so much...


still we are far far better than india...

we dont urinate on Railway Lines..as Indians do...

Thanks God....


we have very good ecomic condiotion than average indian man....


we are atomic power...

we are missile power....

we bulid tanks...

we build planes...

we build sub marines...

we have everything....


god Bless jinnah...

he saved us...

and now we are 1st class citizen of pakistan

having full self respect ...and Izzate Nafs here...

we are not slaves of anyone....

we have everything....by gracce of God....


If we are less than tens...



we are better than tousands....


i wonder....

if 1947 seperation have not done...


then we have to face the same 3rd class citizenship behavioure as 200 millions muslims are experiencing...


thanks God agin to jinnah....

he saved 30 crore people from slavery....


he was no doubt a iron man...

who was unaware of the word defeat...


Thanks God..he saved from poverty..which indians are facing today....