Independence Thinker

aslam (I think) wrote that India is a democracy because of a large educated section.

1. Well, India is yet to become a democracy though it is going in that direction.

2. The proportion of Indian educated say around 1947, would be less than many countries in the Middle East, Africa today and Latin America (in the 70s).

So let us give the unwashed in India some credit too ... I know it is against the mdern caste system to do so.

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"...the works of Annie Besant and Madam Blavatsky. The latter claimed to have received instruction..."

I do not know how much Gandhi was influenced by Besant. But is is well documented that half-way around the world there was another who was influenced .... he wrote under the name "arjun" ... a die-hard liberal who refused to use his powers against the legislature even though it resulted in his death... a man who fathered a revolution which lead to the deaths of thousands ... a man who inspired the only person to invade the US mainland ... a man who fathered the Mexican revolution ... a man whose name was Madero.

When we read history we should not confine our study to time, geography and our "modern" perspective.

IMHO, Gandhi's non-violence was not about sitting around and singing songs (the Western fascination). It was a cry to the masses, who did not posses swords , guns, resources or the courage, that they had the right and were indeed able to "... think or give their opinions about the high matters of government."

Kaal:

I owe you a quote. It was not by the Habsburgs (as I earlier thought) but the Bourbon monarchy, sometime around 1767. It goes:

"The subjects of the Great Monarch who occupies the throne of Spain should learn once and for all that they were born to obey and remain silent and not to think or give their opinions about the high matters of government."

(Luis Navarro Garcia, "El virrey marques de Croix")

I quickly went thru the posts after my last post #85, and have the following comments:

1. on George Washington walking away from the US Presidency: thanks Pardesi (post 139) for pointing to the specific history that supports the more general comment I made about G. Washington setting a great example by walking away from power. And Pardesi #159 is I think also correct in noting that Gandhi set a similar example, and (sadly, I think, for Pakistan's future political development and very relevant nowadays when BB, NS, Mush have all demonstrated they are all three basically small men/women who place personal power above national interest - and the chief justice stands out all the more in contrast) Jinnah did not.

2. On Ram Raja: I see Stuka seeing the dark vision Ram Raja presented by Kaal (i.e. caste suppression) as being the correct definition, while drlokraj/Folio seem to think it refers to good government. So, still unsure (having respect fro all three, and sure they know what they are talking about and certainly not in a position to know better myself)...I googled and read the first couple of links which basically gave the drlokraj version.

Armed with my ignorance on the subject then (smiley icon here), here are my two cents: "Ram Raj" may well mean different things to different people. BJP et al may see the dark vision that Stuka/Kaal say it represents, while Gandhi may have seen the bright vision. The moral of the story is: Mix religion with politics and you screw both of them. If you are looking for "good governance", why put a religion label ("ram raj" for hindus, "khulfa-i-rashideen" for muslims e.g.) around it? Why not just use "good governance" or "democracy", which means the same thing to everyone, hindu, muslim or christian and on which everyone can agree on regardless of religion?? And, as an added benefit, those for whom good governance plays second fiddle to greed for personal power (e.g. Mush or BB or NS in Pakistan) are forced to pay lip service to it as well. :-)

Good lord .... politicizing the masses is not easy .... but it is an extremely important component in the foundation of a democratic process ... Gandhi played an extremely important part in politicizing a sizeable proportion of Indians. Rest is upto the Indians ... That being said, it really does not matter what Gandhi ate, said or sh*t (paraphrasing Masadi). I do not know much about MAJ and the masses.

HP:

I am no fan of KallChakra but his latter explanation (not the one advocating caste rule) is absolutely the popular understanding of Ram Rajya. There was no religious movement led by Gandhi in the name of Ram Rajya. The closest "back to basics" movement was Arya Samaj and that rejected Sanatana Dharma and its associated evils of idol worship, caste etc.

189/arjun

ha ha ...

Re: # 161
Mr. Masadi... just now i wrote supporting you point of view it is rejected.
They just not like to be told what others feel.

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And folio here is a direct quote from Gandhi himself.... Chapter 27 of his autobiography "RECRUITING CAMPAIGN"

People did attend, but hardly one or two would offer themselves as recruits. 'You are a votary of Ahimsa, how can you ask us to take up arms?' 'What good has Government done for India to deserve our co-operation?' These and similar questions used to be put to us. However, our steady work began to tell. Quite a number of names were registered, and we hoped that we should be able to have a regular supple as soon as the first batch was sent. I had already begun to confer with the Commissioner as to where the recruits were to be accommodated. The Commissioners in every division were holding conferences on the Delhi model. One such was held in Gujarat. My co-workers and I were invited to it. We attended, but I felt there was even less place for me here than at Delhi. In this atmosphere of servile submission I felt ill at ease. I spoke somewhat at length. I could say nothing to please the officials, and had certainly one or two hard things to say. I used to issue leaflets asking people to enlist as recruits. One of the arguments I had used was distasteful to the Commissioner: 'Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn.'


Compare this to what Jinnah said:
“We cannot ask young men to fight for principles, the application of which is denied to their own country. A subject race cannot fight for others with the heart and energy that a free race can fight with for the freedom of itself and others. If India has to make great sacrifices in the defence of the Empire, it must be as a partner in the Empire and not as its dependency. Let her feel that she is fighting for her own freedom as well as the freedom of a commonwealth of free nations under the British crown and then she will strain to stand by England to the last.�

This should so the difference between the two men.

#171 Posted by aslam644 on August 19, 2007 2:39:39 pm


The reason India was successful with democracy was because hindus had a large educated middle class


The reason you don't have a democracy is because you let your army get too much power..

The reason you gave your army too much power: Kashmir..you thought the martial army could defeat the bania and win kashmir for you...The army failed and then turned the "indian threat"(after a war it started) into continual justification for it's powergrab...

no two ways about it...

Re: # 184

For some stupid reason addresses show up broken. There is no gap in "mistake" in that address.

Dear Folio,

1. There is no such quote in Hector Bolitho's book "Jinnah the Creator of Pakistan" attributed to Jinnah.

2. koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/fascism/gandhimistak e.html


Join mistake and see for yourself.

Please Don't abuse me unnecessarily as is your wont. You may read Gandhi's Passion by Stanley Wolpert, Story of my experiments with the truth and see that Gandhi was a recruiter through out the first world war. To Jinnah Gandhi even wrote saying "Seek first the
recruiting office, the rest will follow" ...

Jinnah's support to the British against Nazis was the just stand to take.