The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

Extremely long, boring and sounds like yet another patronizing white man talking down to "less developed" about the reasons for their backwardness. Mr Berk, you are a little late for that whole white man's burden speech.

Re: # 339

Khusk "Sahib" represents the "mijaartee" of Pakistanis who have conveniently forgotten the racism meted out to the "new" Pakistanis from the "new" Indian territories by the "sons of soil". It's the same old story and seems to rear it's head every few years. Formation of MQM and assumption of the "mohajir" identity has now become the object of derision and scrutiny by the racist tormentors of the past. Prior to this, it was the legitimacy of the nationality (i.e. "quamiyat") of the "hindustanis" that was the constant target. Mohajir are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

People like "zahid_e_khusk" should spend their time and energies to abrogate racist "quota system" of Pakistan that was primarily insitituted to support the rural majority over urban minority of Karachi. It's a racist practise that every justice loving Pakistani should rise up against. Unfortunately those protests are reserved for corrupt CJs and their political puppet masters.

Kudos to the people of Karachi who have managed to thrive despite every road block erected in their path to progress and education by both rulers with ethnic agendas and ethnic groups.

{Khushk Sahib,
Just as the rooster should get no credit for the sunrise, the Mohajirs of Sind are not responsible for the status of the current residents of UP (followed by Bihar). Some in India could even claim that the Mohajirs leaving India for Pakistan rasied the average IQ of both places. :)}

Here is Daniel Berk.

So many interacts but hardly in touch with the content of my article. Karachi's disarray was not the topic but the religious thought, its spread, and subsequent effect on the socio-political realm and of course the psychoalanytical dimension. This to my surprise could be unwisely overtaken by ungodly demagoguery.

Khushk Sahib,
There is nothing inherently great or wonderful about Mohajirs. They are just millions of human beings trying to make a living, support their families, and develop a better future for their children - a word which includes BOTH sons AND daughters. :)

Zahid-e-Khushk {"At the very top one will see the residents of Karachi followed by those of Lahore, Hyderabad, Sukkur and somewhere down the index one will see the current residents of U.P. followed by Bihar. "}

Khushk Sahib,
Just as the rooster should get no credit for the sunrise, the Mohajirs of Sind are not responsible for the status of the current residents of UP (followed by Bihar). Some in India could even claim that the Mohajirs leaving India for Pakistan rasied the average IQ of both places. :)

A look at the history of the human development of the people whose ancestors came to Pakistan from U.P. and Bihar allows us to make a human development index. At the very top one will see the residents of Karachi followed by those of Lahore, Hyderabad, Sukkur and somewhere down the index one will see the current residents of U.P. followed by Bihar.

Cliftonbridge #334 {"salim apparently the only sin in pakistan is a man killing another armed man. Every time bombs go off in mosques and restaurants ...when women are hacked to pieces that doesnt count.

MQM is a murderous party but if they stopped challenging religious extremists, misogynists and feudals their murders would at least be rewarded with understanding from the rest of pakistan and 72 white grapes in the herafter. "}

My dear Clifton,
For many ignorant and self-deluding people, it is easier to complain about other peoples' receding hairlines than to comment about the hideous faces they see in the mirror. :)

Khushki Sahib #333 {"I never thought about the fine line between Biharis and Urdu speaking stranded Pakistanis. But what term should be used for them? Irrespective of the right term, my views regarding the responsibility of Pakistan toward them is not honoured by you. Is this honesty?

That Pakistani military prefered to surrender and thus end the war instead of keep killing the anti-state elements including of course the collateral damage of civilian casulaties is cursed by you! You want the Pakistani military to fight and kill our own countrymen?"}

Khushk Sahib,

You are damned right that I am not in the right state of mind. That is a slight inconvenience for me compared to the 35 years of suffering that these poor "stranded Pakistanis" have endured because of the dishonesty, perfidy, and shamelessness of the country they loved.

There is no such fine line between Biharis or UPites. The correct term is neither Bihari nor "stranded." Let's call them ABANDONED PAKISTANIS - which is what they are and have been for over 35 years. I know very well that Pisser-e-Zameen, especially Punjabis used the word "Bihari" to imply subhuman and thus dismiss, discard, and in a macabre way disown Pakistani responsibility for their anguish.

I say this with utmost sincerity and to further convince you of my concern for this humanitarian catastrophe, let me assure you that I am neither a Bihari nor do I have any relatives or close acquaintances who are Bihari.

As to the matter of what Pakistani forces should have done in 1971, I can say with conviction that what they did was the wrong thing to do. They saved their own skins and they abandoned their native supporters to a cruel and horrible retribution. Using the affinity of the conquering Sikhs for their Punjabi brethren, the cowardly Pakistani army surrendered en masse to establish a world record and provide bragging rights for generations of Indian nationalists.

When confronted with racists like you, HP, and Tahmed Sahib, is it any wonder that Mohajirs want to band together under a common MQM banner. There must be something very real, very threatening, very monstrous, that unites people from UP, Bihar, MP, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Hyderabad, Tamil Nadu, Rajasthan, Mysore, and Delhi with each other against Punjabis and Sindhis, with whom most Urdu-speakers have much more in common in language, dress, and food.

zahid politically bihari clearly means nonpakistani. It is at best a very very insensitive way to describe pakistanis stranded in bangladesh. At worst it is manipulative racist and deliberate.

While women in Punjab, NWFP, and Sind are raped, beaten, and mutilated; while illiteracy and ignorance are the main provincial languages; while feudalism is the primary economic policy: while Islam is being perverted to the point of 16 century Catholicism; and while poor nations like Bangladesh perform acts of charity for "stranded Pakis," these charlatans and hypocrites find it their duty to point out pimples on the faces of MQM youth...

salim apparently the only sin in pakistan is a man killing another armed man. Every time bombs go off in mosques and restaurants ...when women are hacked to pieces that doesnt count.

MQM is a murderous party but if they stopped challenging religious extremists, misogynists and feudals their murders would at least be rewarded with understanding from the rest of pakistan and 72 white grapes in the herafter.

Dear Salim Sahib,

You don't seem to be in the right state of mind now. May be we should talk later after you have thrown the unholy Pakistani passport in some drain and have started to feel like a free and better human being.

I never thought about the fine line between Biharis and Urdu speaking stranded Pakistanis. If according to your perception there's something offending here then I'd apologize for that. But what term should be used for them? Irrespective of the right term, my views regarding the responsibility of Pakistan toward them is not honoured by you. Is this honesty?

That Pakistani military prefered to surrender and thus end the war instead of keep killing the anti-state elements including of course the collateral damage of civilian casulaties is cursed by you! You want the Pakistani military to fight and kill our own countrymen?

That makes it clear that you need some rest
and a psychiatric consultation.

salim i share your deep dispair and shame. Although shamelful, the worst paki govt did was call them bihari and turn them away.
I think there are right now people who can correctly blame the paki govt for much much worse ethnic treatment than that.
The govt does not work for its people because the people by their very nature worship a caste system which makes all of them inferior to a small majority.

cliftonbridge #324 {"If the zahids of the world were not racist and not stupid there would be no MQM "}

My own dearest Clifton,
Exactly! ..and to this you can add Tahmed Sahib and HP, the sages of Pakistan who pontificate unity, nationalism, decency, peace, and progress. While women in Punjab, NWFP, and Sind are raped, beaten, and mutilated; while illiteracy and ignorance are the main provincial languages; while feudalism is the primary economic policy: while Islam is being perverted to the point of 16 century Catholicism; and while poor nations like Bangladesh perform acts of charity for "stranded Pakis," these charlatans and hypocrites find it their duty to point out pimples on the faces of MQM youth. Is it any wonder that the Paki goose is getting goosed in Miranshah?

ok maybe i did misunderstand you. You dont understand me very well either.

Look i for one am DESPERATE to see some alleviation of poverty in the whole of pakistan. I think that feudalism tribalism and misogyny is a HUGE MISTAKE . At the risk of sounding racist i will still say people who support the above can shove it. There are parts of pakistani culture that are so pathetic they must be openly condemned and not mollycoddled in the name of ethnic sensitivity.

I have NO belief in the ethnic genetics of ability... clearly ability is by collective circumstance and personal ability. I honestly dont even care what lineage gets jobs so long as competition is fair.

If i hate certain parts of pakistani culture its because those parts keep pakistanis down and subservient and prevent us from fixing the economic and social disparity.

I would be more than happy to get rid of the whole MQM ...but only at the same time as we break the unfair hideousness of feudals over everyone else, man over woman and sect vs sect. Till then we need these crazies to keep the other far worse crazies in check.

Zahid-e-Khushk #327 {"This brutal treatment of the stranded Pakistanis, however, doesn't give an excuse to Pakistan for forgetting them, let alone disowning them. They should've long been in Pakistan.

I hope, you'd not disagree that a Punjabi prime minister started bringing them home and settling them in Punjab because Sind and PPP were against them and interestingly the same anti-Bihari PPP is now being welcomed by the Bihari-loving MQM! "}


Khush Sahib,
There are certain acts of cruelty, perfidy, denial of basic human rights, and extreme cowardice that drive even polite people to harsh and "uncivilized" language.

Your blatant attempt to lump all Urdu-speaking "stranded Pakistanis" in Bangladesh as "Bihari" betrays your own duplicity and rather KHUSHK crocodile tears. Please don't even attempt to score brownie points for one Punjabi PM or another. Decent governments and their supporters do the right moral thing and don't play Pontius Pilate against the interests of their own suffering people stranded in a hostile land.

Shame on you. Shame on Tahmed Sahib. Shame on all Pakistanis for this shameful, unforgivable, and extremely myopic, selfish, and ZALEEL policy. Maybe it is God's will that the army that surrendered in such a cowardly fashion is being whipped like cream in Waziristan. Allah ke ghar meN der he, andher nahin.

I am ready to throw my expired Paki passport in the garbage can.

Please excuse me for a typographical mistake in my post 327:

"they certainly loved and punished" should be read as "they certainly loved and were punished FOR".

Dear Salim Sahib,

views could also be expressed in a more civilized way. Have you forgotten or given up your age-old tradition? Or it's the MQM riffraff that's now determining the culture of the once so serious and civilized Utter Perdeshies?

To the problem of the stranded Pakistanis: It's a shameful part of our history that Pakistani politicians denied to recognise and bring them to their new country that they certainly loved and punished because of it so brutally by the racist Bengalis who saw in a handful of people a great danger for their state security or even survival. It's equally shameful of the Bengalis who treated their Muslim fellows so inhumanely. This brutal treatment of the stranded Pakistanis, however, doesn't give an excuse to Pakistan for forgetting them, let alone disowning them. They should've long been in Pakistan.

I hope, you'd not disagree that a Punjabi prime minister started bringing them home and settling them in Punjab because Sind and PPP were against them and interestingly the same anti-Bihari PPP is now being welcomed by the Bihari-loving MQM!

Tahmed, Khushki, and other racist Paki bigots. Sharam se jaao or duoobo - your myopic hatred and racism has been answered by some compassion by Bangladesh - the end of Pakistan is near. May all your cowardly soldiers die in Miransha, you scum of humanity and blot on the name of Islam. COWARDS!


B'desh may grant citizenship to stranded Pakistanis

SEP 6 - Nearly half of about 300,000 Urdu-speaking “Bihari” Muslims awaiting repatriation to Pakistan for over 36 years may be granted Bangladeshi citizenship ahead of elections next year, a senior government official said on Thursday. “We are considering to give citizenships to about 140,000 Biharis who were either born in Bangladesh or have expressed loyalty to us,” said a Home Ministry official. He said the rest of the Biharis, also known as “Stranded Pakistanis”, would continue to wait for an agreement on their fate.

Despite your claim that no one feels offended when an attempt is made to analyse the performance of the genetic brothers and sisters of the MQM clientel in U.P. and Bihar, your persistent distasteful remarks suggest a different perspective.

I feel myself outrightly misunderstood by you and your colleagues -- if you're true in your statements.

I'm strictly against quota system or any affirmative action in whatsoever shape because it creates the wrong victim mentality. people start thinking that they're not competetive and need special care which is in the longer term more damaging to them.

But the other side of the coin is the fundamental issue of equal opportunities. You talk about having a fair share according to your perception of representation in the government sector but you never talk about equally fair access to the educational infrastructure to the majority of pakistanis living in villages/towns/small cities. Do you really believe that these people have such good infrastructure in their regions? if not then how can you call your demand of ending the quota system a fair and justified one?

Dearest salim
This is the kind of thing you will regret in the morning. Beating Laddu's is entirely without value. If the zahids of the world were not racist and not stupid there would be no MQM ...instead the MQM despite being a frightful organization in many ways is the backbone of the sind govt and will be for years to come untill this kind of mentality dies out.
And for the record Zahid loads of people are "allowed" to criticize the MQM thats not the racist part... but ofcourse you slept thru most of the discussion only to wake up and call bihari hindus backward :)

It's not only ridiculous but also hypocritic that the clientel of a rascist and fascist party are calling very soberly persons rascist! Merely because they've questioned the hate-based ideology of MQM and've urged them to come to the floor of sanity?

#320 Zahid-e-Khushk {"The Bridge before collapsing made some noise and that has been quoted by Salim Sahib because he is apparently void of arguments. "}

Khushki,
Obviously "the bridge" didn't go far enough in calling you just stupid. You are much more than that - a determined, devious, and insidious racist.

Tahmed #288 AND #287 {"#288 Posted by tahmed32 on September 20, 2007 5:16:33 pm
viqaram: ..., then I suggest you back your accusation that I am a racist by cutting and pasting anything I have written that strikes you as being racist. .

#287 Posted by tahmed32 on September 20, 2007 5:12:22 pm
salimchauhan: ... You have thousands of posts from me written on chowk. Show me one post where i have used the term "sons of the soil" which you claim I have been "bragging about"!! "}

Tahmed Sahib,
First of all let me assure you that I don't collect the nonsense that you have blurted out in thousands of your posts. I am sure that Viqarm Sahib shares my good taste in reading.

Do you have a habit of dictating to people that they research your idiotic and racist remarks and then post them here for further circulation?

The reason that many people here call you a racists is that if it walks like a duck, quack likes a duck, it must be a racist. :)

The Bridge before collapsing made some noise and that has been quoted by Salim Sahib because he is apparently void of arguments.

#291 Zahid-e-Khushk {"According to Salim Sahib's statistics, Muslims made some (10-15)% in the eastern part and about 30% in the west. On the average one could assume they made about 20% of U.P. The fitter ones left for Pakistan leaving behind the retarded ones. We can forget them. But what about the Hindus making some (70-80)% of the total population? They had the same genes and culture. Why couldn't they develope whereas their fellow Hindus in Tamil Nadoo and Karnatka could very well do?"}

Khushk Sahib,
I was going to respond to your idiotic statements with some facts, but I think that cliftonbridge has answered you quite appropriately in #292 with:

"Zahid you may not be the most racist person on this board but you are by far the most ridiculous ...i mean HP's blatant "muhajir will come and get you with a kolapuri knife" crap is at least worth a good laugh...

Do you really think muhajirs take it personally when you criticise UP /bihari hindus? is ANYONE really that stupid ?
Please find a single person in pakistan india or infact switzerland who thinks that muhajirs will bristle if you call bihari hindus backward."

#286 IB {" 'jab sharif insaan badmashi per utarta hai tu us say khatarnaq koye nahin hota'

I say when there's Pakhtoon-Punjabi Itehad, Punjabi Student Fed., Nationalists Parties in Pakistan openly bash eachother - why not MQM which is a representative forum for the Mohajirs of Pakistan."}

IB Sahib,
Khub, bohot khub! Everybody else can play ethnic, religious, linguistic, feudal cards, but we Urdu-speaking Mohajirs are expected to only chant "Shad bad manzil-e-murad." :)

nite

cliftonbridge: got to go now. have a good night.

#314 clifton bridge: Sorry to hear that. At least you are lucky you did not get caught overspeeding in Virginia - they have a new law (meant primarily to raise money from out of state motorists I think) where they charge a .. hold on to your subway seat... $1,000 fine for speeding in excess of 20 mph over speed limit.

My shoulder is getting better slowly. Another 4 weeks in Physical Therapy should do it hopefully.

As for Pakistan politics - I just pray that we have a return to democracy. I really dont care who wins as long as it is done through free and fair elections, and more important - if the elected party does not do well - that people can remove them 4 years or so later.

fine i am smarting from the indignity of a stupid 60 dollar fine for putting my feet up on a subway seat :(

hows your shoulder??

(ps- just one last thing? when BB and PML-Q win the next elections and make a combined govt will you forgive the MQM ...since they will not at that point be the only ones supporting Mush? :))

cliftonbridge #308 thanks for the explanation, and sorry i missed your response on the quota system. But why do you continue to think despite what I wrote that the quota system is something that only mqm thinks is not right? I am not a member of the mqm, e.g., and I made it clear why I think the quota system is not merely unfair it is self-defeating and based on an unsound philosophy.

as for mqm, after May 12 they no longer qualify as anything other than a criminal organization: They came out with guns to defend musharraf's "right" to be the dictator of Pakistan and to deny Pakistanis their basic rights, and they killed peaceful protestors. I am not happy to say this - I would love to see more people who are working towards introducing a progressive society in Pakistan, not less. But it has been mqm's choice to betray the rest of Pakistan at this critical time.

Anyway, enough of mqm. Hope all is well with you.

Viq i am not justifying it ...i am saying there is a diff btw being considered antireligion and being consdered anti IJI.
MQM hate JI thats true but i was not aware that their reputation in karachi was that they were antireligion.

#308 Cliftonbridge
"Also moderate karachiites dont think that JI is a good representation of muslims specially not after the sunni shia genocide".

Bibi, that is fine. But you don't overlook killing of people in cold blood because you think they are not good representation of muslims. What is the difference between that and what goes on with the killing of barbers and hijabless women in the north?

Furthermore, the shia sunni genocide is more the work of outfits like sipah-e sahaba, sipahe mohammad and lashkare jhangvi, not JI.
Nor is this sectarian killing limited to Karachi only.

viqarm #306 I dont care if your beliefs are pure as a freaking snowflake. You called me a racist, and then failed to produce anything I wrote when I told you to back your words with anything I wrote. You are welcome to stop wasting your time. Have a nice day.

#306 tahmed: You haven't the faintest clue about my beliefs and, at this point, you shouldn't have any illusions about where I think you can park your opinions.

Feel free to think whatever you like, express whatever you like, correct whatever you like, and - if you can - do about it whatever you like. I does no bother me. I I have no wish to further waste my time with you.

Viq ...thats the thing with MQM they'd kill ANYONE to stay in power. They killed MQM (H) the most gleefully, but they are equal opportunity with PPP ANP IJI etc ...i am not sure they hit JI/supporters because they are anti religion ..they hit them because JI is number 2 in karachi.
Also moderate karachiites dont think that JI is a good representation of muslims specially not after the sunni shia genocide.

Tahmed i AGREED with you on the quota system i didnt ignore you!!!you missed my post i guess.
Feudalism only works for the feudals thats is true but do you see anyone trying to dismantle that self destructive system? why not? on the contrary do you see people voting for feudals time after time? Feudalism is very much alive and kicking chachoo whether you like it or not.
And as for patronizing the urban middle class ...only three groups of people can take control of karachi ..feudals (PPP)..sectarian bomb blasters (JI) or the facist MQM chauvanists. The urban middle class is directly opposed to and threatened by the feudals...we lived under the active genocide committed by IJI (who routinely killed INNOCENT NONPOLITICAL CITIZENS AND BLEW UP MOSQUES) and that leaves the bhatta khors. Guess who gets the 7 million karachi vote? Guess why?
You want to say its racism because you dont like the MQM ...but you know thats a cop out.

As for women leaders chachoo please ...individual pakistani women can be truly outstanding many are ..the most outstanding pakistani woman is def. asma jehangir..that doesnt mean the status of women in pakistan isnt crap. Please just look at the education rates EVEN AS A RATIO of women : men to know the whole story.
Lahore and isloo are diff and prob similar...but overall as you move north from karachi to Charsadda female literacy drops from 85% to 0.85%....you cant sugar coat this one and pretend there is no cultural difference (i am again not saying GENETICS but culture which is an active decision) Please dont call me intolerant for not being tolerant of the pathetic status of women in Pakistan ...and i cant pretend its not miles better in karachi (pretty bad still by many standards).

#302 viqarm: I didnt say I didnt understand you. I was correcting you on your belief that Freedom to Lie is one of your basic rights.

#302 tahmed: What is it in "you can think whatever the hell you like" that you don't understand?

further to #303: the way i see it - on 1, there is no shortage of women leaders in Pakistan, from BB on down. I dont see any women leaders in mqm other than men. nor are women's issues (of the kind that human rights activists like asma jehangir at the forefront in Pakistan) something that mqm is noted for. While no doubt there are primitive customs in many parts of rural Pakistan, but I dont see these as issues for mqm.

on 2., do you seriously think anyone other than feudals is in favor of feudalism in Pakistan? and the quota system I have already explained at length to you, and you ignored it, so I wont waste any more time.

on 3., please dont patronize the sind middle class. They have become the middle class through their own efforts at education, not due to mqm patronage.

cliftonbridge #296 On these "strengths" of mqm, you wrote


1. by pakistani standards very good to women and minorities
2. right about the quota system and fedualism
3. the only ones who give a fig about the urban sind middle class

How did you arrive at these conclusions?

viqarm #300 a free country does not mean you can accuse someone of racism without being able to back it with anything, as in your case. all this means is that you dont have any problem lying.

#295 Cliftonbridge

"I agree with all of this except i wasnt aware that MQM was thought to be anti religious in karachi (by the taleban standards yes) ...not sure thats quite right".

Dr. Sahiba, I can assure you I am no taleban/JI/JUI . But MQM does seem to be extra kind towards this variety, as I am sure you well know from the carnage of the minibus near KU last week.

#288 TAhmed
"If you have a problem with being considered a liar as well, then I suggest you back your accusation that I am a racist by cutting and pasting anything I have written that strikes you as being racist".

You can suggest whatever you want. It is a free country, and I have no use for your suggestions.

I never suggested that feudal system is better than fascism. Both are evils. Both make slaves out of free human beings stripping them of their human dignity. I refered to DAWN's report becaus some MQM voice was showing 'grief' for people living under feudal parts in Pakistan. I don't think human dignity is in any way safe in the streets of Karachi where the riffraff holding guns are marauding.

oh i see...i did not say that criticising MQM was unjustified specially re violence. However when MQM supporters say that the feudal system is like the caste system they are right and i read YOUR comment on the dawn report to imply that since karachi is violent that means human rights are better under the feudals.
Thats not true unless you dont consider women and poor people human.

Bridge Sahiba,
My last post was about MQM agents marauding the Karachi streets and that can be allocated to no. 1 in the list nicely provided by you. That means this humble person was not doing any unjustified critic.

zahid yaar please stick to the genuine criticism of MQM of which there is plenty.

1. Violence
2. Chauvanism (ethnic)
3. Maybe corruption (though i need to be conviced on this)
4. Fukkin fool altaph pai

and please be honest about their strengths

1. by pakistani standards very good to women and minorities
2. right about the quota system and fedualism
3. the only ones who give a fig about the urban sind middle class

when you start with the racist stuff that unlike HP's stuff isnt even vaguely entertaining or thought provoking it gets too much for me ...and lastly yaar i am behan not bhai.

"MQM's value system - at least at the moment - remains unprincipled in many ways, so it is not likely to happen. Mohajir mainstream is egaliterian, moderately religious, liberal, and fundamentally patriotic. Pir sahib, depending upon his fortunes, beseeches the Indian govt to patriate us all back to India; I think he should speak for himself. The mainstream also perceives MQM as anti-religious and it cannot deal with, nor support, bhatta collection and terrorism. We need an open society, not no-go areas. Before anything else, there is need for MQM's politics to change and align with the the mohajir mainstream values."

I agree with all of this except i wasnt aware that MQM was thought to be anti religious in karachi (by the taleban standards yes) ...not sure thats quite right.

I also wasnt aware that the MQM was considered financially corrupt although zeemax said they are..does anyone know more about that?

Bridge Sahib, it was about what DAWN reported in the spirit of fair journalism. It's not only the right of citizens to know what the hell is going on in Karachi's streets but also the obligation of a fair journalist. It seems to me that now MQM clientel is more interested in marauding the streets of Karachi than letting this great city develope as it is certainly predestined to do barring any insane destructionism.

re @290 .... ask any woman in karachi of ANY ethnicity whether she'd rather move to any other place in sindh nwfp or baluchistan. Lahore and isloo maybe. Why do you say stuff that is clearly either complete crap or totally exclusive to men?

Zahid you may not be the most racist person on this board but you are by far the most ridiculous ...i mean HP's blatant "muhajir will come and get you with a kolapuri knife" crap is at least worth a good laugh...

Do you really think muhajirs take it personally when you criticise UP /bihari hindus? is ANYONE really that stupid ?
Please find a single person in pakistan india or infact switzerland who thinks that muhajirs will bristle if you call bihari hindus backward. Thats the extent of how out of touch you are with any form of reality and why its a real pain reading anything you write.

According to Salim Sahib's statistics, Muslims made some (10-15)% in the eastern part and about 30% in the west. On the average one could assume they made about 20% of U.P. The fitter ones left for Pakistan leaving behind the retarded ones. We can forget them. But what about the Hindus making some (70-80)% of the total population? They had the same genes and culture. Why couldn't they develope whereas their fellow Hindus in Tamil Nadoo and Karnatka could very well do?

Someone was showing grief for his/her countrymen in other regions of Pakistan because they're suffering under repressive feudal system and are not able to enjoy the freedom that MQM has guaranteed to the Karachites! I feel reminded to an excerpt from DAWN posted here by some inquisitive guy yesterday about a robbery in a bus by MQM workers which tells us what that 'hard working', 'capable' and 'educated' people responsible for the skyrocketing development of Karachi have become after having completed their job of developing Karachi!

HP #283 Greetings. I basically agree with you, and would only add that we separate the mqm-thugs from the ordinary people. mqm basically shot itself on the foot on May 12, and Musharraf lost a good deal of support that day as well when he exposed the extent to which he was prepared to go to put down the democracy movement in Pakistan. So, now mqm-types can talk big on chowk, but they stand exposed for the ghoondas that they are before the rest of Pakistan.

viqaram: I am sure you dont have a problem with having a mindset of a ghoonda. If you have a problem with being considered a liar as well, then I suggest you back your accusation that I am a racist by cutting and pasting anything I have written that strikes you as being racist. On the other hand, if you dont have a problem with being considered a liar as well, then you need not trouble yourself with that, and can be happy writing some more of you hollow words.

salimchauhan: You have thousands of posts from me written on chowk. Show me one post where i have used the term "sons of the soil" which you claim I have been "bragging about"!! This is how pathetic you are - making up the term "pisr-e-zameen" to back your claims to victomhood, and when challenged, blatantly lying by claiming I have been using it.

Anyone familiar with chowk knows that most issues here revolve around india-pakistan politics or around religion. and more recently dictatorship vs democracy. It is mqm followers who drag in ethnic politics, and it is mqm followers who stand alone in their support for a military dictator.

Re: # 284 viqarm, I agree with you there about MQM changing her policies - to me Altaf Hussain is the biggest hurdle ; I am sure with the passage of time things will change. I am very much hopeful.

HP, it's not a mooradabadi knife - its rampuri and mate, you don't have a clue about Karachi.

1. Muslims who migrated stayed at Marton Quaters - Jail Road and areas surrounding Saddar .
2. Nazimabad , N.Nazimabad , FB Area etc. were when Karachi was the capital - were considered posh areas - still the cost of land in these areas are high according to Pakistani Standards . ( we had a house in Nazimabad No.4 during the 60's - Babur Ghori, Rauf Siddique and most of the MQM leadership still lives in these areas - literacy rate still is in 90% - mostly proffesionals) .
3. It was the Memons,Delhiwalas and Khojas who own most textiles businesses in Karachi . Ishtiak Baig owns Asias biggest Denim Manufacturing Unit - he is from UP while Dewans owns Asias biggest Textile Factory in Burewala,Punjab 'Burewala Textile Mill' and the list is too long - just two examples.
4. MQM with all your stupid comments survives after 1992 operation and is even more stronger.
5. People like Altaf Hussain would not have been popular if people like you and the Punjabi lott did to us -MQM being the party formed by angry young man because of quota system, biased attitudes

I remember the qoute of one of my superior officers - regarding the formation of MQM ( DIG Crimes , SP ) 'jab sharif insaan badmashi per utarta hai tu us say khatarnaq koye nahin hota'

I say when there's Pakhtoon-Punjabi Itehad, Punjabi Student Fed., Nationalists Parties in Pakistan openly bash eachother - why not MQM which is a representative forum for the Mohajirs of Pakistan.
Then all our arguements are falling into deaf ears !

#191 TAhmed
That is fine; I have the mind set of a street ghoonda and I don't have any problem with it. You have the mind set of a racist, and it isn't because of your education, or your parents; you must have been born with it.

Good luck.

#258 IB
"I think it's pretty clear how important it is for the Muhajirs to unite under MQM with all the flaws and evil inside MQM because it's MQM which is our last resort from
the racist Sindis and ungreatful Punjabis".

MQM's value system - at least at the moment - remains unprincipled in many ways, so it is not likely to happen. Mohajir mainstream is egaliterian, moderately religious, liberal, and fundamentally patriotic. Pir sahib, depending upon his fortunes, beseeches the Indian govt to patriate us all back to India; I think he should speak for himself. The mainstream also perceives MQM as anti-religious and it cannot deal with, nor support, bhatta collection and terrorism. We need an open society, not no-go areas. Before anything else, there is need for MQM's politics to change and align with the the mohajir mainstream values.

With its present politics, I suspect that MQM support has reached its limits; it cannot be broadened by dangling the attitudinal threat of people like HP, TAhmed, chuhara and a number of others.

The only reason Hindus left for India was the aggression of Moradabadi knife wielding mohajir. They supposedly left everything in India but did not forget to bring their knives with them.
Their love for being armed has now progressed to hanging on to TTs and Ak47.
The communal nature of the Urdu speaking makes them easy target for sectarian and communalist politics. Atlaf just pandered to what comes naturally to mohajirs and they had always loved: Politics of hate and communalism.

HP #281 {"Poor Sindhi and Balochi suffered because they were clearly behind in education after the Hindus left for India."}

HP,
Damned Hindus. They took all the schools, books, pencils, paper, and teachers with them to India. :)

It is very true that mohajir in Pakistan got the opportunities that their counterparts in UP or Bihar never got so in a way I do agree that it is not an apple to apple comparison. Having said that I would also like to point out that the same bunch, while still in UP or Bihar before the partition, never really had anything to boast for then. All their braggadocio and boasting is because of the opportunity they got in Sindh in particular and Pakistan in general.

It is also an unfortunate fact that mostly Sindhis ended up eating up the cost of the opportunity afforded to the mohajir. That would still not be an issue if Mohajirs had accepted to share in the progress and the job creation that came with Karachi becoming the capital and only port in West Pakistan. Karachi before 1958 was still a dilapidated city due to numerous slums inhabited by the Urdu speaking. With the booming Textile industry and investment from the Fed during the Ayub era, Karachi really prospered.

All major Mohajir population centers such as Nazimabad, federal a, b,c new Karachi etc areas were developed during the sixties to move the slum dwellers to two room quarters and housings. In the 50s, the same effort was made in PECHS and other societies for upscale housing for government servants.

Most of the expenses for these developments were paid for by the Federal Government and the cash came from the tremendous jute exports during and after the Korean War.

What did Mohajir contribute to this? All they did was take over the jobs because the majority of bureaucrats in Isloo and before that in Karachi were Urdu Speaking.
The Khojas from Bomaby invested in trading and just a handful entered the textile Industry.
Punjabis still own more textile mills and industry in Karachi than the mohajir or the Khojas.

So Mohajir really grabbed the opportunity then because they stifled competition from Punjab and other provinces. Poor Sindhi and Balochi suffered because they were clearly behind in education after the Hindus left for India.

Tahmed Sahib #272 {"SalimChauhan: My point was not merely your coming up with the divisive term ("pisr-e-zameen"), but the distinction you this term implies. So just translating into english isnt what is needed. What is needed is for you to shake out of this lifelong training you have obviously received in distinguishing between people on the basis of ethnicity."}


Tahmed Sahib,

I merely translated into Farsi what you and others of your mentality have been bragging for years - "Sons of the Soil" to distinguish yourselves from Mohajirs - regardless of how many generations of Urdu-speaking Mohajirs have been born in Pakistan.

BTW, Tahmed Sahib,
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Tahmed Sahib #276 {"When mqm-types ridicule the rest of Pakistan as illiterate villagers, it is you who expose yourself to the kinds of questions zahid raised"}

Tahmed Sahib,
What you call "ridicule" I would prefer calling "regret" or "condemnation." Yes, it hurts us (and angers us) to see millions of our fellow Pakistanis suffering under the yoke of feudalism, deliberately and carefully manufactured ignorance and illiteracy, nonsensical and pernicious religious extremism, and self-defeating and stupid oppression of females. The poor serfs who toil under the Vaderas, Chaudhrys, Sardars, and Amirs of the four provinces are a disgrace to a modern Muslim society. If India could have land reform, how come Pakistan cannot? Or is that the holy cow of Pakistan's privileged Brahmins?

Tahmed Sahib,
The Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad have almost nothing to do with the relative standing of UP & Bihar in development. The Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad have a big say, a significant contribution, and a lot at stake in the development of Sind and Pakistan. It is very insidious and condescedning of Khushki Sahib to relate the totally separate situations in India and Pakistan. Mohajirs' involvement with UP & Bihar ended approximately 60 years ago - that means 2 to 3 generations in most societies.

Chachoo there is no harm in asking why people are illiterate, literacy is not a DNA code like i said its a reversible condition. The self imposed and state imposed barriers to education have to be explored in every part of the underdeveloped world.

Sometimes there are cultural aspects which frankly promote illiteracy (specially in women) ...its pointless to look the other way out of politeness. There is something stupid about those cultures which needs to change. UP/bihar is no exception...its not sacrosanct.

salimChauhan: As for zahid raising this question of the level of development of Bihar/UP relative to the rest of India - this is the precisely the result of theethnic politics that you and your kind are are happy to indulge in. When mqm-types ridicule the rest of Pakistan as illiterate villagers, it is you who expose yourself to the kinds of questions zahid raised.

#268 Zahid-e-Khushk {"Dear Salim,
I requested to have your help in understanding the different tracks the history of the people of U.P. and Bihar took after the Partition living in India and Pakistan. You even didn't come with a population listing of the cities of their origin mentioned by you earlier.

This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka.

The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious. "}

Janab Khushki Sahib,
I have tried to answer your questions objectively and scholastically. However, I am not your research assistant to gather demographic data for your convenience. Please look up the information - it's not that difficult. :)

In general the pre-partition population of UP (with which I am more familiar than Bihar), was anywhere from 10% - 15% in the eastern to 30% - 40% in the western parts of UP with certain areas such as Muradabad, Meerut, Delhi, and Bijnor enjoying slight majorities. The Muslims were mostly resident in urban areas and even the sizable zamindar tabqa kept semi-permanent residences in the cities. Partition sucked the life-blood out of most areas of UP, because the more educated, more enterprising, more aggressive, and those who were bureaucrats, police, and managers left for Pakistan. Those who were left behind suffered from land reform (at their expense), suspicion, demoralization, and denial of opportunities in police, military, government which were their traditional occupations. Also, don't forget that a huge number of Hindus in UP and Bihar happen to be untouchables - who had more contact with Muslim landlords than with their high-caste co-religionists. Of course, we all know the level of development and progress made by Dalits in India. These are among the reasons why UP and Bihar have fallen considerably behind the rest of India and even behind the level attained in Karachi by their migrant sons and daughters. Give it time, the way Pakistan is headed, thanks to the lack of foresight of the fratricidal and self-imploding wishes of the pisser-e-zameen, pretty soon people will be asking why UP and Bihar Muslims are so much more advanced than their cousins in Pakistan?

zahid says

It makes the point clear and that’s the Karachi connection: Karachi makes successful!
Since there’s no Karachi in U.P. and Bihar, these people are still backward. Since there is no Karachi in the rural Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP, these people are still backward


Yes karachi does allow people to become successful more than maybe any other place. But not by magic. You are hugely discounting because it suits your cause that the distinction of the muhajir community is over 95% literacy...do you think that has nothing to do with success??

''This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka. ''

Simple, because the relatively rich and educated muslims of UP, Bihar and rest of India migrated to Pakistan.
For the record , the ticket from Bombay to Karachi Ferry from which lot of UP - and rest of Indian Muslims ( excluding East Punjab Migrants came ) was Rs.150 one way plus there was a charge of protection from the railway station to the port ( bus couple of days boarding / lodgeing ) of Rs.85 additional. This services were all done by Bhori Community of Bombay - and they were very helpful.How many of Indian Muslims could have afforded Rs.60 at that time is anyone's guess?

you asked,
''The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious.''

My first posting right after graduation from the Police Acadamy was in Hyderabad . I could assure you that Mohajirs of Hyderabad are educated and doing as well as there brothers in Karachi - they are mostly traders and a huge majority of them are working in public sectors. Same is the case with our community in Nawabshah and Sukker.

#265 SalimChauhan: My point was not merely your coming up with the divisive term ("pisr-e-zameen"), but the distinction you this term implies. So just translating into english isnt what is needed. What is needed is for you to shake out of this lifelong training you have obviously received in distinguishing between people on the basis of ethnicity.

Karachi is a mix of ability and opportunity. The city itself has greatly benefited from the migration of very able (educated and industrious) people who in turn have benefited hugely from the city.

zahid is asking the stupidest question possible. Thats like saying because some white americans are trailor trash chances are Bill Gates must be stupid too but he was granted the opportunity to head microsoft....for no particular qualities of his own.

Dear IB, pleas read my post #182 to know what the offspring of the people coming from villages/small cities of other provinces could achieve benefiting from the great city of Karachi

IB #258 {"Salim Bhai,Clifton Baji,Che Janab,
I think it's pretty clear how important it is for the Muhajirs to unite under MQM with all the flaws and evil inside MQM because it's MQM which is our last resort from
the racist Sindis and ungreatful Punjabis.

Zahid,T-Ahmed and HP's attitude towards us Mohajirs is typical of people in North - that Karachi walas are
paan eating spiting people - dark coloured bhayas who should be greatful because it's we (the Sindis,Punjabis ) gave them land ! how dare they speak? ( what's astonishing is this is comming from the educated class and not from the average joe on the street) ."}

IB Sahib,
Piling books upon a khota does not make it an Einstein. :)
I agree with you about the point that we need to unite under a single platform, regardless of the apparent or perceived flaws. We should never have an intra-Mohajir fratricide ever again - that is exactly what the Government of Pakistan and the racist Pisser-e-Zameen detractors want.

The best thing to do is to avoid the current struggle in Pakistani politics and concentrate on improving our own social, economic, and security-related deficiencies. Nothing will be gained by siding with Bezamir Bhootni for or against Mushy or Nawaz. They are all opportunists and we need to keep them away from our beloved cities of Karachi and Hyderabad. If we can find fair-minded Pakistanis among the Pisser-e-Zameen, we should welcome them to our struggle.

If you have noticed there are people from Punjab such as AhmedMadani sahib who have their eyes and ears open against the constant flatulence emanating from Larkana and Lahore.

Dear Salim,
I requested to have your help in understanding the different tracks the history of the people of U.P. and Bihar took after the Partition living in India and Pakistan. You even didn't come with a population listing of the cities of their origin mentioned by you earlier.

This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka.

The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious.

Re: # 266
going by Khushki's arguements that Mohajirs exploited Karachi being the port city - a good number of Sindis,Phatans and Punjabis lived/ lives in Karachi why didn't they prosper? simple - they were / are not qualified enough!

#264 Tahmed Sahib {"SalimChauhan: zahid-e-khushk is being quite factual when he says that Bihar and UP are among the most backward, politically and economically, of the Indian states."}

Tahmed Sahib,
Yes, Bihar and UP may be the most backward of Indian states, but that is not Khushki's point. He first states that Muslims from UP & Bihar villages migrated to Karachi and then questions why the migrants prospered while their relatives left behind succumbed to ever greater backwardness and poverty? This he ascribes to the fortunate selection of Karachi, the port destination of the greedy Mohajirs and not their struggle, qualifications, hard work, and tenacity.

I doubt that even you are so dense as not to recognize the insidious nature of this claim.

#259 Tahmed Sahib {"salimchauhan: I never heard the term "pisser-e-zameen" until you started using it."}

Tahmed Sahib,
Perhaps you are more comfortable with the gora term "Sons of the Soil," that you use yourself. Once again, Masadi Sahib has characterized you well as that crisp catonment walla with the crisp Sandhurst accent. Did you by any chance know Christine Wheeler in a scriptural way?

SalimChauhan: zahid-e-khushk is being quite factual when he says that Bihar and UP are among the most backward, politically and economically, of the Indian states.

And your response to that is to attack him personally and write a lengthy piece of sarcasm!! Are facts that hard to deal with??

IB: "Zahid,T-Ahmed and HP's attitude towards us Mohajirs is typical of people in North - that Karachi walas are
paan eating spiting people - dark coloured bhayas "

Huh?? Where did I write that? Isnt it pathetic that you have to make things up in order to support your need to be the victim.

Masadi: I get your basic point - "tahmed is destined or hell because he is so evil as to contradict me when I start ranting about the "evil US elite". Dont comment on what he says on any issue."

Wow!! I understand how miserable life must be for someone who thinks he is some kind of a world revolutionary while working for the underlings of the underlings of the underlings of the Musharraf, the man he grandly calls the US peon. Please accept my condolences.

Zahid-e-Khushk #257 {"The question about the incapability of the offspring of the magrated villagers/small city dwellers from U.P. and Bihar to convert the small cities of their new land into flourishing economies is constantly being avoided here for the obvious reason that then the question about the persistent incapability of their brethren in U.P. and Bihar irrespective of thier religion to transform and develop their ancestral land with no danger of any counterproductive involvement of Punjab would arise."}

Khushki,
Just like your run-on sentence, there is no end to your whining about migrants from villages of UP and Bihar. From experience, it is evident that pisser-e-zameen like to beat down their opposition with their own impregnable and irritating hard skulls. Please allow me to rephrase my explanation.

Right after partition, the illiterate and backward Muslims of UP, Delhi, and Bihar, settled mostly in miserable villages, set out on foot to the promised land of Pakistan. They were sick and tired of being tenant farmers, serfs, and slaves of the Hindu upper classes, whom they had been serving for generations since the 13th century. After arriving in West Punjab, these greedy immigrants, despite the repeated pleas of the generous citizens of Lahore and surrounding areas, stubbornly traveled on to the port of Karachi where they could find fertile soil for practicing their age-old occupation of farming. Before departing for Sind, these Mohajirs set upon the innocent Sikh and Hindu Punjabis, looted their lands, sold them at a profit to Punjabi Muslims arriving from East Punjab, and then pocketed the riches of the departing baniyas. They raped and slaughtered and slaughtered and rape all the way from Lahore to Karachi.

Once they arrived in Karachi, the native Sindhis forced them to attend schools, learn English, improve their own Urdu, and start participating in the commercial, governmental, educational, and military. They had arrived penniless, illiterate, and semi-naked from India, but within a decade they were running the show throughout the country and oppressing poor Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis, Kashmiris, and even Pathans and Bengalis. They were all very warlike Muslim extremists and invented suicide bombings and fought the Pakistan military throughout their ungrateful existence in Karachi and elsewhere.

They were given a huge quota for education, employment, and military opportunities and yet they constantly complained about not having ample facilities or aid from the government. Even as Pakistani citizens, these ungrateful migrants supported India and even worked for RAW in dismantling the unity of Pakistan. In 1971, the Mohajirs played the primary role in the defeat and ensuing bifurcation of Pakistan. They alienated the honest and democratically elected civilian leaders like Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto and MiaN Nawaz Sharif. Then the Mohajirs all became Tally Bans and started fighting with the Paki Army and even tried to give away Pakistan's nuclear capability that was attained by the intelligent, hard-working, and diligent scientists from Punjab. These selfish and dishonest fifth columnists did not even support the courageous and honest Chief Justice during his struggle with the Mohajir dictator. On May 12, 2007 the Mohajirs killed many unarmed and peaceful sufi followers who wanted to welcome the Chief Justice to Karachi, which could have been another Dubai, Lahore, or Singapore, if the Mohajirs could have been better human beings.

Masadi kindly buzz off !

salimchauhan: I never heard the term "pisser-e-zameen" until you started using it. By coming up with such distinctions between the "mohajirs" and the original inhabitants of what is now Pakistan, no matter how fancy the language you conjure up, you are not doing "mohajirs" any favors.

And when you say "just hide behind Masadi Sahib" - you dragged in masadi by addressing a lengthy post to him listing my sins. Not me.

Anyway, last post to you. Have a nice day.

khushk, you seems to be GM Syed Inspired Soul.

Salim Bhai,Clifton Baji,Che Janab,
I think it's pretty clear how important it is for the Muhajirs to unite under MQM with all the flaws and evil inside MQM because it's MQM which is our last resort from
the racist Sindis and ungreatful Punjabis.

Zahid,T-Ahmed and HP's attitude towards us Mohajirs is typical of people in North - that Karachi walas are
paan eating spiting people - dark coloured bhayas who should be greatful because it's we (the Sindis,Punjabis ) gave them land ! how dare they speak? ( what's astonishing is this is comming from the educated class and not from the average joe on the street) .

The question about the incapability of the offspring of the magrated villagers/small city dwellers from U.P. and Bihar to convert the small cities of their new land into flourishing economies is constantly being avoided here for the obvious reason that then the question about the persistent incapability of their brethren in U.P. and Bihar irrespective of thier religion to transform and develop their ancestral land with no danger of any counterproductive involvement of Punjab would arise.

A listing of these 'small/medium-sized cities' from where the sizeable number of immigrants should've come -- and presented here a little earlier -- with the population then and now would help bring that in a more scientific perspective.

#249 Tahmed Sahib {"salimchauhan #245: as for the rest of your rantings, I am glad you find a kindred soul like Masadi to share your misery with. "}

Tahmed Sahib,
That's right, when you cannot provide convincing answers, just hide behind Masadi Sahib - just like your idol Bushy hides behind UBL.

#251, #252
Chaltoo,
Is it customary for US Elites to stutter? I guess you are right, because Bobby Kennedy had the same problem. He talked like Bugs Bunny though.

#248 Tahmed {"#245 salimchauhan: So, referring to Biharis as Biharis is racist?"}

Tahmed Sahib,
No, it's not. But when you lump Urdu-speaker "stranded in Bangladesh" (including Urdu-speaking people from Murshidabad, Calcutta, and Urdu-speaking people from UP) under the term "Bihari," and knowing the perception of "Bihari" among the pisser-e-zameen, especially those hailing from Punjab, it doesn't take a Darwin to figure out that you are using a racist slur.

Please don't try to get too clever in your feeble attempt to disguise your xenophobic racism. I can forgive most of your vices, but this racist tendency of yours is hard to overlook. It just reinforces your habitual hypocrisy for all to see.

Chaltahai writes "Masadi, as a US Elite, ....."

You are certainly not among their ranks, at best you are a low level service peon to the elite.

Masadi, as a US Elite, i would like to remind you that you are destined to be railroaded into mediocrity. (just a friendly reminder)

Love,

chaltahai Elite Supreme

Masadi, as a US Elite, i would like to remind you that you are destined to be railroaded into mediocrity. (just a friendly reminder)

Love,

chaltahai Elite Supreme

tahmed writes "#245 salimchauhan: So, referring to Biharis as Biharis is racist?"

Let me answer this hypocrite. Yes it is racist if you mean to imply that certain people are "outsiders". But of course you don't realize it just like your white masters, they didn't recognize the "seperate but equal" as being racist either.....

salimchauhan #245: as for the rest of your rantings, I am glad you find a kindred soul like Masadi to share your misery with.

#245 salimchauhan: So, referring to Biharis as Biharis is racist?